Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 700



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: active sensor ranges
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
Re: Behind the Claw
Re: Newbee2
Re: Newbee2
Re: Exam Question:  Non-Traveller Item
FT Computer Connection Opening...
Re: Digest frequency
Re: FF&S question
The Dean files
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re: Sector Generators.
Re: active sensor ranges
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
re: Terra TL consistency
Behind The Claw
Re TMLDigest
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long) 
Re: Behind The Claw

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 19:51:35 +0000
From: goldendj@pcisys.net
Subject: Re: active sensor ranges

Found an answer to the question about the power involved at
http://www.flatoday.com:80/space/today/073098b.htm. 

How was SOHO detected?

The Arecibo Observatory, located in Puerto Rico, is operated by the National
Astronomy and Ionosphere Center. The giant 305 meter dish is the world's most
powerful RADAR. It can transmit pulses of radio energy with up to 500
mega-watts of power. The Arecibo radar has been used to map the surfaces of
Venus and Mars, and to study the properties of near-Earth asteroids.
Astronomers used a technique called bistatic radar to detect SOHO. Bistatic
radar means that two radar dishes work together, in this case the 70m Goldstone
antenna and the 305m Arecibo dish. When SOHO passed overhead in Puerto
Rico, an hour-long series of radar pulses were transmitted from Arecibo in the
direction of the satellite. By the time the pulses reached SOHO, and the
reflections travelled back to Earth the satellite was no longer visible at
Arecibo.
That's because the dish is so large that its steering is limited and the
rotation of the
Earth had carried SOHO outside its field of view. So, the 70m radio antenna in
Goldstone, CA, which is 60 degrees longitude to the west of Arecibo -- was
used to pick up the reflections. This is a technique that has also been used to
study the rings of Saturn and Earth-crossing asteroids.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:56:21 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

At 09:06 PM 7/30/98 +0200, you wrote:
>How come the LBB size books cost the same as the Flaming Eye sized ones??
>Isnt the printing cost reduced due to the smaller size?

Yes, the printing cost on the two smaller books is reduced slightly, and
the savings will help subsidize the cost of the three larger books, the
added cost of cardstock covers/stapling/trimming, and pay for the printing
of the 'extras.' Also - although I am not required to pay Bill for using
his artwork, I am going too, because I think he and Andrew deserve to be
paid for their past efforts. In addition, if there is any excess cash left
over, I will be sending an extra couple-of-hundred dollars to Andrew and
Bill as a 'thank you' for agreeing (free of charge)to sign their autographs
several hundred times.

Hehe...of course, this project will also go along ways towards funding my
retirement to French Polynesia...but don't tell anyone :P

>>Traveller Text Adventures freeware
>Any chance of these being posted on a web-page?

Yes, I hope so. I intend on putting up a website by Christmas and making
them available there as well as at the ftp site (ftp.gmd.de). Bryan has
also offered to include the converted IF files on the eventual Traveller
CD, so they will be easily available from multiple sources.

Sincerely,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:58:50 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Behind the Claw

> > Loren, SJ, you have my permission to use this text if you want. Just,
> > PLEASE, include the UPP's.

Count me as someone that doesn't want the UPP data in the Gurps: Spinward
Marches supplement, for a number of reasons.

1) Apparently GT will not use UPPs, so it will be meaningless (at best) to
people that don't own older Traveller products. At worst, it will confuse
and infuriate them, as it forces them to buy old Traveller products to
figure out what they mean.

2) Most Traveller fans already know the UPP for the planets in the Spinward
Marches, or have it readily available. I can't see it changing that much
from either Supplement 3, or the Imperial Encyclopedia (as the SM isn't
really involved in the war). Not to mention, it's available on the net, in
things like Galactic. So, the data is readily available. 

3) Speaking of Galactic, the UPPs are very hard to decode for most people
without the use of a computer program. I know I have to look what digit is
what in a book, and I've been playing Traveller on and off for around 15
years. And I wrote a program generating random subsectors.

4) Any space used to have the UPP data is space that could be used for
something else useful. It's also time wasted by the author, that he could
be spending on improving the book.

5) If Gurps:SM actually has descriptions of all the planets/systems in the
Spinward Marches, the UPP isn't really needed. Wasn't the whole point of
the UPP just a way to describe systems with bare minimum of effort on GDW's
part?
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:06:43 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newbee2

In a message dated 98-07-29 19:16:14 EDT, you write:

<< 
 T4.1, I'm not sure what time frame is covered, although I do know that
 the Third Imperium is definitely the setting.
 
  >>
T4.1 (for now we're calling it T5) envisions covering all of the Milieux, but
probably starts with M:0 with a concentration on the Antares sector. 

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:07:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbee2

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 7/29/98 16:16:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
> 
> <<
>  MegaTraveller  198?, aka MT
> 
>  Traveller, The New Era, 1985-ish (iirc), AKA TNE
> 
>  T4, the IG barracks publisher, 1987-88 aka T4
>   >>
> 
> Have I slipped into a time-space paradox?  I thought (at least on my planet)
> that MT came out in 87, TNE in 93, and T4 in 96.  Have I lost my mind?

Oh, no, I've merely lost mine...rather I went on Really faulty memory
with those dates...sorry for all the confusion folks!


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:21:44 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Exam Question:  Non-Traveller Item

Eric T. or Maryann C. Holmes wrote:

> All:
>
> Thought you would enjoy this.
>
> >From The University of Oklahoma, School of Chemical Engineering, a Dr.
> Schlambaugh's class.(The good doctor is famous for asking final exam
> questions like, "Why do airplanes fly?")
>
> In May, 1997, the Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II final exam question
> was, "Is hell exothermic or endothermic?  Support your answer with proof!

We've played this game before.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:34:07 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: FT Computer Connection Opening...

... with your help, and as soon as I clear up some technical bugs
vis-a-vis my ISP.

The Freelance Traveller Computer Connection (in the InfoCenter)
will be a listing of software that is of use or interest to
Traveller fans.  For space considerations, the software in
question will not be stored at FT, but the Computer Connection
will provide links to any software accepted for listing.  Now,
comes the hard part: Getting listings.

That's where you come in.  If you have written, or know about,
some software that would be of interest or of use to Traveller
fans, and which is available via legal download from the Net,
tell Freelance Traveller by writing to us at
freetrav@hotmail.com.  Include the following information:

Name of software
Size of download (in bytes, approximate OK)
Brief (1-2 short paragraphs) description of what it is and does
Author's name
Cost.  If "funny shareware" (e.g., "If you like this, send a
       dozen roses to your mother"), the cost should be noted as
       "special".  If no cost, indicate.
Platform.  What kind of system does this run on?  If it requires
           a different software package (for example, an Excel
           3.0 spreadsheet), indicate the software package; if it
           requires a different package but still only runs on
           certain systems, note it.
Is source available?  If so, note the language.  If not, note "no
source"
URL.  I have to know where to link to so people can download it!

Example:

The Travelling Apple
(~143,000 bytes)
This program allows your computer to maintain a portable database
of Traveller characters.  It comes with a character generator,
character record sheets in PDF format, and responds to plain
English commands.
Author: Cassius Belli
$15, Shareware.  Apple II/II+.  Source included (Applesoft BASIC)
ftp://foo.bar.baz.net/pub/software/apple/basic/etc/etc/etc/travappl


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:18:54 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Digest frequency

> A quick question about the digest versions of the list -how often is it
sent
> out? sometimes it seems to be quite quickly, other times of the day it's
> only rarely.

AFAIK, the digest gets sent when there are enough mails to fill it.
Thus, if there are more mails a a certain time, the digest gets sent more
often, if there are less, the digest doesnt fill up as fast, and gets sent
less often!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:09:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S question

At 07:31 pm 7/29/98 +1200, you wrote:
>I have a question regarding collapsable fuel bladders in the FF&S 2
rules.
>
>In the rules it states that they take up 10% of their volume when
collapsed. In 
>every previous Traveller design system I'm aware of it was only 1%.
Was this 
>change deliberate (presumably to give a higher penalty to the tanks)
or is it just 
>an error?

	To be honest, at this point I'm not sure. Let me go off and see if I
can come up with an answer for you.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:34:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: The Dean files

The old Sunbane 'Dean files' are accessible in zipped format at my web
site:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/other_vehicles.html

There are two files...a comma separated index file of the vehicles and
ships, and another, larger zip file containing the actual designs.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:30:09 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

At 02:33 am 7/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
>"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> wrote:
>
>>On 28 Jul 98, at 23:22, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>>> >Hmm.  There should be more than politics.
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, Stu. I'm not knocking what you all did with
_Milieu
>>> 0_.  I just don't think you could get it all into one book.
>>
>>No offense taken.  I agree with you, actually.  What I would have
>>liked to take the opportunity to do would have been to build on
what
>>was done with M0 with additional material.  One of the things we
>>proposed, but which never got done in light of IG's year long death
>>dance was to develop specific sectors that we thought would be
>>useful, within the context of the M0 campaign, and basically
>>develop the sector within the context of the 150-200 years covered
>>by M0.
>
>It actually went a bit further than you think. We had got about 8
>subsectors into Dagudashaag when IG went under.

	And you stopped because ...?

>Shame really, it would have been a nice playground with background
for the
>whole of M0, competing PEs and some really nice plot hooks (a few
>ex-Interstellar Confederacy forces out for revenge - Doug Berry did
a
>gorgeous ship design).

	There's always homes for freelance efforts; maybe not paying ones,
but I know you could find half-dozen website that'll kill for it.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:35:09 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Generators.

At 10:53 am 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Talisman wrote:
>> 
>> Ok, I have given up on my quest and have set out to write one. Don't know
>> how long it will take me to do, but it will be a Qbasic program written to
>> allow you 'paint' the densities for the sector as well as the government
>> for the sector.  I intend for it to do deatailed dydtem generation and was
>> wondering if there was an interest in such on this list.
>> 
>> --
>> My god, it's full of stars!
>> 
>> Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467
>
>I'm not sure about others, but I have done some work in Qbasic on the
>above. Perhaps we (you and I) could swap files or if you haven't started
>yet, you could use my files as a starting point and flesh them out. Let
>me know what you think.

	There's a simple BASICA sector generator on my web site.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: active sensor ranges

At 09:33 am 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>>
>>         I'm keeping my mind open about salvage. If anybody's
interested,
>> BTW, I can post a layman's explanation of what went wrong, and how
>> NASA hopes to salvage it, seeing as I have strong professional
>> interest in this area
>
>Sure, we can always use more rocket scientists posting!

	Not sure I qualify as a rocket scientist, just an engineer. I've got
the preliminary report on my desk at work; I'll simplify it and post
it in the next day or so (along with the original URL, so you can
check that out).

	Super-simple summary: two commands were incorrectly built on the
ground, placing the satellite in a potentially dangerous situation.
The anomaly response team misinterpreted the indications, and turned
off the only working gyro ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:11:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net> wrote:

>no...
>
>It's a jump to the left.... and a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight...

Ermm.... how many parsecs is that jump?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:30:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Terra TL consistency

 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>Gentle Sophonts and K'Kree,
>  That sounds like a slur, no matter how much they might appreciate it.

It was... ;-)

They deserve after what they did in Independence Day. Big Disc like ships.
That's K'Kree! I've read my Alien modules!

>>You leave a society for a few months and look what it does...
>
>  We took a vote on this issue! Luckily, quorum is one...

;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:04:54 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Behind The Claw

Just for reference, guys, most of the UPP data is in the text entry for
each world. (SOmeone showed me the P-Test).

An example:

>UFP Terra Secondus
>8020 mi diameter, standard atmosphere, 70% hydrographics, Warm Climate,
>Population 4,200,000, Impoersonal Bureaucracy, Law Level 6, TL 9.
>
>Terra Secondus is a lush garder world, best known for parrallel
>continental and cultural development to earth, which diverged somewhere
>around the time of the (Terran) fall of the roman empire; their rome never
>fell.

this is the basic type of layout, although this is wholly my text and
warped imagination. Given a paragraph about UPP's, and the tables, one
could figure out UPP's from GT:BtC entries.

 SOME MENTION OF UPP's STILL NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED IN GT SOMEWHERE... in
many TU's, they are a character accessable reference. Including mine. And I
don't always tell players the correct UPP... unles Peter is playing, as
he'd notice in most cases.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:12:20 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re TMLDigest

>
>A quick question about the digest versions of the list -how often is it sent
>out? sometimes it seems to be quite quickly, other times of the day it's
>only rarely.
>
>Paul
>
>(hope this made sense to someone)
>

Looks like each time it breaks 27KB in size, from my TML inbox. Or, at a
minimum, once per day if there is any traffic at all. (On point a while
back, I remember recieving a digest of 2 short messages--- the header was
as long as the messages! Might have been on XBoat... don't recall).

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:06:34 -7
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

On 30 Jul 98, at 5:31, Greg Smith wrote:

> Oh, I don't know about that....  There were *thousands* of years that 
> came before.... :->

Funny you mention that.  My current IRC campaign is set in pre-
contact Earth, circa 21st century.  I may write about it as the game 
develops, and I'm not giving away secrets that my TML-reading 
players anymore.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar                sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Published Game Designer, Frustrated Novelist
"Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:06:34 -7
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

On 29 Jul 98, at 22:16, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >For example, we proposed a sector book on Antares.  This would  get
> >into the politics of the region, the cultures that had grown up, 
> >detailing key worlds, the races minor and major that populated it, 
> >and source material for the key events in that sector the 200 (The 
> >chief ones being the Julian War and the Antares Pacification 
> >Campaigns, of course).
> 
> That *is* an interesting area that hasn't been covered very well up to
> this point.  In fact, has the whole Julian Wars/Protectorate area been
> officially covered at all?

A large portion of the **additional material** for the hardcover was 
devoted to the Pacification campaigns, as well as the Julian War.  
About 25% of it, actually.

> That's why I suggested restricting the area and time covered.  I don't
> remember if there is official timeline already established before T4
> that detailed just exactly what happened during the -50 to +50 period,
> but if there wasn't, I'd have slowed the Sylean's down and made the
> Interstellar Confederation and the Star Kingdom (I think that's them) much
> more serious threats.  As it stands in the M0 timeline all the serious

The Interstellar Confederation and Chanestin Kingdom are both 
gone by Year 4.  Really, there are no big enemies for the Imperium 
until the run up against Menderes and the Julian Protectorate.  
There are pocket empires to be sure (a few examples were detailed 
in M0 campaign), but there just isn't anybody big enough in the 
area covered to pose a credible threat to the Imperium during the 
time period covered.

> I realize that, but not everyone wants to play a political campaign and
> the exploration presented was really exploitation, it seemed to lots of
> folks.  M0 presented a "darker" view of the Imperium's imperialism,

Hmm.  Capitalism with angst?  I'm not sure I agree that M0 is all 
that dark a background.  Certainly not as dark as MT or TNE.  No 
darker or brighter than CT, in my book.  Brighter in some ways, as 
we have an empire expanding, new worlds being rediscovered.  CT 
has an empire that clearly is not as strong as it used to be 
(territorial losses to Zhodanis & Solomani), has deep seated 
internal problems (anti-psionicist pogroms), and is basically an 
empire in stagnation, whether your universe has Strephon getting 
knocked off or not.

The Imperium **is** little more than a trade confederation, backed 
and binded together by oaths of loyalty and a strong navy.  The 
only way such an empire could be put together is through 
economic expansion, encouraged by political maneuvering, and 
backed by a show of force.

> probably quite realistic, but not the "pure and noble" view that 
some
> wanted. Oh, I'm likely overstating the case here, so don't mind me.

Nobility is merely a cloak to disguise real motives.  No one does 
anything totally out of altruism, despite what people might like to 
believe.  At its best, governments and societies function out of 
enlightened self-interest.  Hard to imagine the young Imperium 
being much different.  The later Imperium (at least as written in MT) 
forgets about the "enlightened' part.

I see nothing dark in a win-win situation.  Most worlds, by 
accepting Imperial protection, and becoming part of an interstellar 
economy, would materially benefit from Imperial rule as opposed to 
enduring further generations of the long night.  Many worlds in the 
early years of the Imperium would undoubtedly jump at the 
opportunity to import high tech goods, and have a steady flow of 
exports.  Obviously, some wouldn't, and there would lie the seeds 
of the Consolidation/Pacification campaigns.

> Yeah, I had high hopes too.  Of course, I doubt I'd ever be happy
> playing in somebody else's universe anyway.  Maybe the real reason I
> advocate a short time/compact area approach is so I can use that as a
> seed and grow my own universe around it.

See what I mean about enlightened self-interest?  :-)

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar                sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Published Game Designer, Frustrated Novelist
"Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:12:00 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

> There's always homes for freelance efforts; maybe not paying ones,
>but I know you could find half-dozen website that'll kill for it.
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Oh, I don't know.  You may not make a big profit, but LOM broke even (from
what I've heard).

douglas
(who received his copy of LOM and is very pleased with it...)


E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:19:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long) 

> On 30 Jul 98, at 5:31, Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> > Oh, I don't know about that....  There were *thousands* of years that 
> > came before.... :->
> 
> Funny you mention that.  My current IRC campaign is set in pre-
> contact Earth, circa 21st century.  I may write about it as the game 
> develops, and I'm not giving away secrets that my TML-reading 
> players anymore.

I hear ya.  My PBEM is starting to shape up, & some of the details are gonna get posted here as things develope.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:46:03 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw

> 
> >UFP Terra Secondus
No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
again.
This is another thing i liked about the expanded UWP, it always said where
exactly this world was, so finding it on the map is made easier!
> >8020 mi diameter, standard atmosphere, 70% hydrographics, Warm Climate,
> >Population 4,200,000, Impoersonal Bureaucracy, Law Level 6, TL 9.
remember however, that Traveller TL and Gurps TL DO NOT match!
Thus, there will be a certain amount of confusion, unless there is a TL
conversion-table in the G:T rulebook!
Secondly, why write it out? The UPP only takes about a page to explain, a
page that does not need to be recreated (just take the one from MT), while
the individual entries would be shorter in the long run. And Gurps players
would be weaned on the UPPs making it easier for them to understand
Traveller sourcebooks and thus allowing them to purchase them without
havibg to also buy the rules!

> >Terra Secondus is a lush garder world, best known for parrallel
> >continental and cultural development to earth, which diverged somewhere
> >around the time of the (Terran) fall of the roman empire; their rome
never
> >fell.
Weird, and i thought that the marches were only settled by the 3I, with the
only exceptions of Darrian (and the Zhodani, although they also settled
their part).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #700
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 31 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 701



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

UWP's in Behind the Claw
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 
Re: IG's Demise; What I know. (long)
re: Re: active sensor ranges
Re: Newbee2
Traveller stuff for sale
Re: Behind The Claw
Re: The Dean files
OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
Doing deckplans/Webpage update
Governments in the Marches
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #698
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:58:02 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: UWP's in Behind the Claw

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For what it's worth, I hope that they *don't* use UWP's for
Behind the Claw. Those of us who want UWP's can find them readily
enough - or make our own.  The lack of UWP's would
help free up the imagination and the referee's scope.
I'm hoping that the world-building format in GURPS:Space
will be adhered to: this is GURPS-flavoured product,
after all!

I don't mind, though, if GURPS chooses to post the UWP's
on their website as an archive or errata, or if a brief paragraph
is tacked on at the end asking for a self-adressed stamped envelope,
so they can send you the UWP's.

Alvin Plummer


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>For what it's worth, I hope that =
they *don't*=20
use UWP's for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Behind the Claw. Those of us who =
want UWP's can=20
find them readily</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>enough - or make our own.&nbsp; The =
lack of=20
UWP's would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>help free up the imagination and the =
referee's=20
scope.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>I'm hoping =
that the=20
world-building format in GURPS:Space</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>will be adhered to: this is GURPS-flavoured=20
product,</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>after all!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I don't mind, though, if GURPS =
chooses to post=20
the UWP's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>on their website as an archive or =
errata, or if=20
a brief paragraph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>is tacked on at the end asking for a =

self-adressed stamped envelope,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>so they can send you the =
UWP's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Alvin Plummer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:32:32 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

Is the Reaver's Deep Sector Supplement "extra" as in 20 bucks too...or extra
as in with a supplements....OK....I haven't had a lot of sleep so I didn't
understand what he ment :)
Thanks again for the great job on Letters of Marque....

Mike McKeown

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:42:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

> Is the Reaver's Deep Sector Supplement "extra" as in 20 bucks too...or extra
> as in with a supplements....OK....I haven't had a lot of sleep so I didn't
> understand what he ment :)
> Thanks again for the great job on Letters of Marque....

Personally, I'd *LOVE* to see a seperate Reavers' Deep supplement a la 
Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches back in the LLB days...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:09:50 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: IG's Demise; What I know. (long)

In a message dated 98-07-30 14:49:25 EDT, you write:

<< Sweetpea Entertainment (under Courtney Soloman), which holds the movie
 rights to both Traveller (I think still)  >>

Sweetpea no longer holds the movie rights.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:26:23 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Re: active sensor ranges

 
>The Arecibo Observatory, located in Puerto Rico, is operated by the National
>Astronomy and Ionosphere Center. The giant 305 meter dish is the world's most
>powerful RADAR. It can transmit pulses of radio energy with up to 500
>ega-watts of power.

That *has* to be an instantaneous peak power number, not average power.
(ie they transmit a 1ms pulse every (say) ten seconds; the peak power during
the instant they're transmitting is 500 MW, but the average power is 
50 kW. Probably it's more like a 1 microsecond pulses at a few tens of
hertz.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:52:39 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Newbee2

> Whew...we seem to be getting a slew of these 'newbie' posts... a good sign
> perhaps?

Because of TravChat, I am sent all email directed towards 
irc@imperiumgames.com off the IG site.  I've been getting a number of 
responses lately. They seem to come in spurts and this last one has 
been a bit more sustained.

I've been as helpful as possible, despite having to break the news to them 
about IG's demise (I usually avoid even that unless they ask directly).  I 
do point them to TML.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:14:51 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Traveller stuff for sale

I ran into this stuff at my local second hand bookstore. I have all of them
already (and I paid a lot more for them; drat!) :

The Traveller Adventure: $7.50
Alien Realms: $3.50
Alien Realms: $4.50
MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia: $6.00
MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook: $6.00
The Early Adventures (DGP's reprint of AB-101's first 4 adventures in
MegaTraveller format): $5.00

The phone number of the bookstore is : (702)-261-9577

They all look like they are in decent shape (Fair?). They just have 15 years
of shelf wear.

I think shipping (they are in Las Vegas) is $3 for the first one and $1 for
each additional book. Ask when you call.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:58:00 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw

> From:          "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
> Date:          Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:46:03 +0200
>
> No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
> again.
> This is another thing i liked about the expanded UWP, it always said where
> exactly this world was, so finding it on the map is made easier!

The hex location is noted.  Note that William made up an entry as an 
example rather than quoting the playtest files directly.

> Thus, there will be a certain amount of confusion, unless there is a TL
> conversion-table in the G:T rulebook!

> Secondly, why write it out? The UPP only takes about a page to explain, a
> page that does not need to be recreated (just take the one from MT), while
> the individual entries would be shorter in the long run. And Gurps players
> would be weaned on the UPP's making it easier for them to understand
> Traveller sourcebooks and thus allowing them to purchase them without
> havibg to also buy the rules!

In writing it out they give you more information (i.e., atmospheric taints, 
info on the starport, etc.).  Plus the paragraph or two of backround 
information each world gets.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:04:37 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: The Dean files

At 04:34 PM 7/30/1998 -0700, you wrote:
>The old Sunbane 'Dean files' are accessible in zipped format at my web
>site:
>
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/other_vehicles.html
>
>There are two files...a comma separated index file of the vehicles and
>ships, and another, larger zip file containing the actual designs.
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
> 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:11:07 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

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Just reading a thread "Navy Movies" in the sci.military.naval newsgroup.
TML'ers may want to take a look at these movies, and
graph a few of their idea's and plot's to the Imperial Navy
(Or Solomani, or Zho, or...)

From "Mike Williams"

"The Battle of the River Platte"
"Sink The Bismark"
"Das Boot"
"Action in the North Atlantic"
"The Caine Mutiny"
"Run Silent, Run Deep"
"The Hunt for Red October"
"Operation Petticoat"


From "Gary"

 Favorites, with some mediocrity and hokum included:
Submarine Movies (in addition to those already mentioned):
Torpedo Run
Operation Pacific
Run Silent, Run Deep
We Dive at Dawn (British)
Destination Tokyo
Crimson Tide

Non-Submarine Movies (in addition to those already mentioned):
They Were Expendable
Corvette K-225 (British/Canadian)
In Which We Serve (British)
Under 10 Flags (Italian??)
Bridges at Toko-Ri
The Fighting Lady
Sailor of the King (British)
Mr. Roberts
The Gallant Hours
Destroyer
Submarine D-1

- ----------------------------------

And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial=20
naval battles fought in Traveller history, pre 3I?
I don't know, but as sheer speculation, I'd put them as
1 battle - Vilani, pre-First Imperium
  a battle that marked the Ziru Sirka as the Master
  in Charted Space. =20
3 battles - during the First Imperium: one battle that set the
  coreward limit of Imperial Space vs.the Vargr, one=20
  battle that was "the most serious threat to=20
  Vilani Space", pre-Terran, and one battle that marked
  the epic end of an anti-Vilani revolt.
2 battles - during the Interstellar Wars.  One battle that
  gave the first sign that the Terran's were Serious, and a=20
  second that marked the End of the Imperium (The Battle=20
  of Dingir, 8th Interstellar War?)
2 battles - the Rule of Man.  Both of them involving
  warfare among the Naval Nobility, highlighting the
  disintergration of the Ramshakle Imperium's leadership.
2 battles - during the Long Night.  One battle being=20
  a pyhrric victory, improvishing two cultures that could=20
  have ended the Long Night centuries earlier, if they didn't
  improvish themselves in war. A second battle marking=20
  the height of the pirate Reaver's fleet.
1 battle marking the rise of the Sylean Confederation
  as an interstellar power.

OK, so it's 11 battles....

Anyway's, interstellar civilization has been around=20
- -9235 (The Vilani), and the First Imperium
ruled from about -5273 to -2204 (Offical ending:
September 14, A.D.2299, on Vland, according to=20
http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library
/Int_wars.htm. ) =20

That's over 3000 years for the=20
First Imperium (!), and 9000
years for human interstellar civilization.

That's a lot of history with rather limited warfare,=20
but then again the Vilani are more bureaucratic
than militaristic. Moreover, they had a weakness for
genocide, even more than the Solomani, so=20
few subject peoples would rebel twice.

And on the side... the First Imperium became 'decadent'
from -3000.  If you assume that Vilani trading ship's
visited Earth pre-decadence, then the occassional visit
would end at about 900 AD ("decadence" implying the
end of cross-border expeditions by unregistered
'free traders', never numerous even at the height of=20
the First Imperium).=20

Alvin Plummer

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<HEAD>

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>Just =
reading a thread=20
&quot;Navy Movies&quot; in the sci.military.naval=20
newsgroup.</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DCourier>TML'ers may want to=20
take a look at these movies, and</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>graph a few of their idea's and =
plot's to=20
the Imperial Navy</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>(Or Solomani, or Zho,=20
or...)</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>From &quot;Mike=20
Williams&quot;<BR><BR>&quot;The Battle of the River =
Platte&quot;<BR>&quot;Sink=20
The Bismark&quot;<BR>&quot;Das Boot&quot;<BR>&quot;Action in the North=20
Atlantic&quot;<BR>&quot;The Caine Mutiny&quot;<BR>&quot;Run Silent, Run=20
Deep&quot;<BR>&quot;The Hunt for Red October&quot;<BR>&quot;Operation=20
Petticoat&quot;</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>From =
&quot;Gary&quot;</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2><BR> Favorites, with some =
mediocrity and=20
hokum included:<BR>Submarine Movies (in addition to those already=20
mentioned):<BR>Torpedo Run<BR>Operation Pacific<BR>Run Silent, Run =
Deep<BR>We=20
Dive at Dawn (British)<BR>Destination Tokyo<BR>Crimson =
Tide<BR><BR>Non-Submarine=20
Movies (in addition to those already mentioned):<BR>They Were=20
Expendable<BR>Corvette K-225 (British/Canadian)<BR>In Which We Serve=20
(British)<BR>Under 10 Flags (Italian??)<BR>Bridges at Toko-Ri<BR>The =
Fighting=20
Lady<BR>Sailor of the King (British)<BR>Mr. Roberts<BR>The Gallant=20
Hours<BR>Destroyer<BR>Submarine D-1</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>----------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier><FONT=20
size=3D2>And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>naval battles fought in =
Traveller history,=20
pre 3I?</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>I don't know, =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>but as sheer speculation, I'd put them=20
as</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>1 battle - Vilani, pre-First=20
Imperium</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; a battle that marked the =
Ziru Sirka=20
as the Master</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; in Charted Space.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>3 battles - during the First =
Imperium: one=20
battle that set the</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; coreward limit of =
Imperial Space=20
vs.the Vargr, one </FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; battle that =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>was &quot;the most serious threat to=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; Vilani Space&quot;, =
pre-Terran, and=20
one battle that marked</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; the epic end of an anti-Vilani =

revolt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - during the =
Interstellar=20
Wars.&nbsp; One battle that</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; gave the first sign that =
the=20
Terran's were Serious, and a </FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; second that marked the =
End of the=20
Imperium (The Battle </FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; of Dingir, =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>8th Interstellar War?)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - the Rule of =
Man.&nbsp; Both of=20
them involving</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; warfare among =
the Naval=20
Nobility, highlighting the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; disintergration of the =
Ramshakle=20
Imperium's leadership.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - during the Long =
Night.&nbsp;=20
One battle being </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; a pyhrric =
victory,=20
improvishing two cultures that could </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; have ended the Long Night =
centuries=20
earlier, if they didn't</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; improvish themselves in war. A =
second=20
battle marking </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; the height of the pirate =
Reaver's=20
fleet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>1 battle marking the rise of the =
Sylean=20
Confederation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; as an interstellar=20
power.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>OK, so it's 11=20
battles....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>Anyway's, =
interstellar civilization=20
has been around </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>-9235 (The Vilani), =
and the First=20
Imperium</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>ruled from about =
- -5273 to -2204=20
(Offical ending:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>September 14, =
A.D.2299, on Vland,=20
according to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library">http://users.netac=
cess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library/Int_wars.htm">/Int_=
wars.htm.</A>=20
)&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>That's </FONT><FONT face=3DCourier =
size=3D2>over 3000=20
years for the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>First Imperium </FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier=20
size=3D2>(!), and 9000</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>years for human interstellar=20
civilization.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>That's a lot of =
history with rather=20
limited warfare, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>but then again the =
Vilani are more=20
bureaucratic</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>than militaristic. =
Moreover, they=20
had a weakness for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>genocide, even more =
than the=20
Solomani, so&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>few subject peoples =
would rebel=20
twice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>And on the side... the First =
Imperium=20
became 'decadent'</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>from -3000.&nbsp; If you assume =
that Vilani=20
trading ship's</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>visited Earth pre-decadence, =
then the=20
occassional visit</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>would end at about 900 AD=20
(&quot;decadence&quot; implying the</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>end of cross-border expeditions =
by=20
unregistered</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>'free traders', never numerous =
even at the=20
height of </FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>the First=20
Imperium).&nbsp;</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>Alvin=20
Plummer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_011C_01BDBC06.F3950FE0--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 04:31:58 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Doing deckplans/Webpage update

Someone asked me via email for details on how I produce the deckplans on my
webpage. He also asked for advice in making his own.  As is often the case, I
failed to give a short answer. The answers and advice I DID give can now be
seen at the address below.

 Also showing up are a few minor additions to my list of Traveller Reads.

 Finally, in light of Marc's recent public flaying of IG, their logo has been
removed from my title page. Other references will vanish as the page they are
on gets revised...

GypsyComet
<http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:22:36 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Governments in the Marches

>Weird, and i thought that the marches were only settled by the 3I, with the
>only exceptions of Darrian (and the Zhodani, although they also settled
>their part).

The interstellar empire with worlds in the marches:

	3rd Imperium/Regency/Domain of Deneb
	Zhodani Consulate
	Federation of Arden
	Sword Worlds Confederacy
	Darrian Confederation

There are unaligned and/or independant and/or client state worlds, as well.

In neighboring sectors:
	Several Vargr polities
	The Aslan Hierate (the portion on the coreward side of the rift)
	Various "Island Cluster" polities in Reft Sector.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:08:07 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <Philk@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #698

>Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:56:46 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
>Subject: Re: UPP's in GURPS Traveller
>
<snip>

>(I wonder if the characters "know their own stats," too...)
>
I've always assumed that there was some sort of Imperial
(or at least local) accreditation, specifically for skills
such as Pilot-3, so players can advertise for a "Pilot-3"
for their ship.
Similarly there is probably someone willing to handout
"Broker-3" certificates.
Of course, whilst people might boast an IQ of 140, the
UPP is not usually well advertised and your Pilot-3 might
be better advising what to do than actually flying your
ship (depending on your approach to the Stat vs Skill debate).
Lower law level worlds might also have the problem of
unregulated certification authorities handing out awards
without proper testing.
How this applies to skills like streetwise, carousing
and bribery, I'm not sure. You might be able to use a
criminal record to justify bribery-1 but presumably with
bribery-5 you won't have one :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:42:37 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

From:           	"alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Date sent:      	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:11:07 -0400

> ----------------------------------

> And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial=20
> naval battles fought in Traveller history, pre 3I?
> I don't know, but as sheer speculation, I'd put them as
> 1 battle - Vilani, pre-First Imperium
>   a battle that marked the Ziru Sirka as the Master
>   in Charted Space. =20
> 3 battles - during the First Imperium: one battle that set the
>   coreward limit of Imperial Space vs.the Vargr, one=20
>   battle that was "the most serious threat to=20
>   Vilani Space", pre-Terran, and one battle that marked
>   the epic end of an anti-Vilani revolt.
> 2 battles - during the Interstellar Wars.  One battle that
>   gave the first sign that the Terran's were Serious, and a=20
>   second that marked the End of the Imperium (The Battle=20
>   of Dingir, 8th Interstellar War?)

From my Prometheus Rising work:

The first would be the Battle of Junction (late 2152 AD) during the 3rd War. This 
was the Terrans first major victory over the Vilani, the defeat of the provincial 
fleet in this battle enabled the Terrans to drive the Vilani from their own territory 
and launch their first substaintial incursion into the Ziru Sirka.

The second would be either Albadawi's campaign in the 8th War (a series of 7 
battles, ending in the 2nd Battle of Duriim) which destroyed the Vilani provinical 
forces. Or more likely the Battle of Ganesh (2275 AD) during the 9th War. This 
was a relatively minor battle, but it was the first time a Central Vilani 
government fleet had been defeated since the Consolidation Wars and the 
morale effects of it (it destroyed the populations faith in the Ziru Sirka) were 
very far reaching.

> Anyway's, interstellar civilization has been around=20
> -9235 (The Vilani), and the First Imperium
> ruled from about -5273 to -2204 (Offical ending:
> September 14, A.D.2299, on Vland, according to=20
> http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library
> /Int_wars.htm. ) =20

Hey its nice to know somebody reads my stuff :*>

Actually that is just a small part of the overall PR project.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #701
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 31 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 702



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Behind the Claw and UWPs
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re: Behind The Claw
Why _not_ to have UWPs in G:Traveller (was Re: Behind The Claw)
[OT] HTML encoded messages
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)
Re:T4 vs GT vs T5
Re:T4 vs GT vs T5
Re: T4 vs GT vs T5
Re: Terra TL consistency
re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:31:36 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: GURPS Behind the Claw and UWPs

Jeremy Reaban posted:
>
> > > Loren, SJ, you have my permission to use this text if you want. Just,
> > > PLEASE, include the UPP's.
>
> Count me as someone that doesn't want the UPP data in the Gurps: Spinward
> Marches supplement, for a number of reasons.

Speaking as a Traveller veteran from 1980, someone who uses
Galactic 2.3 to track system info (Jim V., thankyouthankyou),
*and* someone who dropped over $100 on GURPS books in
preparation for G:T, I also would _not_ like to see UWPs in 
"Behind The Claw".

However...

Loren, would SJG have a problem with posting the UWPs to its
website for us old-time players who would like to use them? This 
would:

1) help minimize printing costs,

2) maintain a link to previously published Traveller material, making
those of us who have it happy,

3) *not* make the use of UWPs _required_ for anyone, making those 
who don't use them happy  (I admit I like the text explanations better),
and

4) give some Traveller players who don't play GURPS a reason other 
than very occasional TNS postings (which may not be useful to them)
to check out the SJG website. Some may even decide to (gasp!)
consider one of SJG's product lines as a future source of fun and
*buy* something. (hey! it could happen).

Now some may ask "why not just derive them yourself from the text
explanations?"  Answer:  I'm lazy. Besides, I already have them.
For all published eras.

But...

It's much easier to read a file of numbers into a computer rather than
key them in and quite a few of the younger members of the TML (or
just relatively newer Traveller players) may not have the info. Making
it available for download on the SJG website ensures the info
availability and allows any relatively new player to mesh any of the
old material they find available with G:T publications.

And if asked where they got the info, guess who gets free 
word-of-mouth advertising, potentially across the world?

Just some thoughts....

(The idea of a website post came from a friend. The marketing greed
is all mine.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:09:10 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDBC62.E0F03F20
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    -----Original Message-----
    From: alvin plummer <aplummer@idirect.com>
    To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
    Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 2:31 AM
    Subject: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
   =20
   =20
    Just reading a thread "Navy Movies" in the sci.military.naval =
newsgroup.=20
    TML'ers may want to take a look at these movies, and
    graph a few of their idea's and plot's to the Imperial Navy=20
    (Or Solomani, or Zho, or...)=20
    =20
    ----------------------------------
   =20
    And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial=20
    naval battles fought in Traveller history, pre 3I?=20
    I don't know, but as sheer speculation, I'd put them as
    1 battle - Vilani, pre-First Imperium=20
      a battle that marked the Ziru Sirka as the Master=20
      in Charted Space.  =20
    3 battles - during the First Imperium: one battle that set the=20
      coreward limit of Imperial Space vs.the Vargr, one =20
      battle that was "the most serious threat to=20
      Vilani Space", pre-Terran, and one battle that marked
      the epic end of an anti-Vilani revolt.
    2 battles - during the Interstellar Wars.  One battle that=20
      gave the first sign that the Terran's were Serious, and a =20
      second that marked the End of the Imperium (The Battle =20
      of Dingir, 8th Interstellar War?)
    2 battles - the Rule of Man.  Both of them involving=20
      warfare among the Naval Nobility, highlighting the
      disintergration of the Ramshakle Imperium's leadership.=20
    2 battles - during the Long Night.  One battle being=20
      a pyhrric victory, improvishing two cultures that could=20
      have ended the Long Night centuries earlier, if they didn't=20
      improvish themselves in war. A second battle marking =20
      the height of the pirate Reaver's fleet.
    1 battle marking the rise of the Sylean Confederation
      as an interstellar power.=20
   =20
    OK, so it's 11 battles....
    =20
    Anyway's, interstellar civilization has been around=20
    -9235 (The Vilani), and the First Imperium=20
    ruled from about -5273 to -2204 (Offical ending:
    September 14, A.D.2299, on Vland, according to=20
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library
    /Int_wars.htm. ) =20
    =20
    That's over 3000 years for the=20
    First Imperium (!), and 9000
    years for human interstellar civilization.=20
   =20
    That's a lot of history with rather limited warfare,=20
    but then again the Vilani are more bureaucratic
    than militaristic. Moreover, they had a weakness for
    genocide, even more than the Solomani, so=20
    few subject peoples would rebel twice.
    =20
    And on the side... the First Imperium became 'decadent'=20
    from -3000.  If you assume that Vilani trading ship's=20
    visited Earth pre-decadence, then the occassional visit=20
    would end at about 900 AD ("decadence" implying the=20
    end of cross-border expeditions by unregistered=20
    'free traders', never numerous even at the height of =20
    the First Imperium). =20
   =20
    Alvin Plummer
   =20
   =20
    OK now because they you have listed 11 naval battles that are =
crucial in history that doesn't mean that there wasn't more
    remember the IIeish rebalion from the empire. or the 5 fointer wars
    and the time with the empires of the flag in the 600's there was =
battles fought there they just aren't the subject of the movies and =
books and public Intrest that the fist solomani enconter with the valini =
or the battle with the vargar. then there was the pacifaction campaigns =
that had to be many battles right.
   =20
    there is alot of history there just not alot of it is canon=20
    IMTU: I have it lots of battlefields and monuments to fallen =
captains and the like to add to the history..


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>alvin plummer &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:aplummer@idirect.com">aplummer@idirect.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=
=20
    </B>Friday, July 31, 1998 2:31 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>OffT: Old Navy =
Movies:=20
    OnT: Major Naval Battles?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>Just =
reading a=20
    thread &quot;Navy Movies&quot; in the sci.military.naval=20
    newsgroup.</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT=20
    size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DCourier>TML'ers may want=20
    to take a look at these movies, and</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>graph a few of their idea's =
and plot's=20
    to the Imperial Navy</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>(Or Solomani, or Zho,=20
    or...)</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    size=3D2>----------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier><FONT=20
    size=3D2>And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial=20
    </FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>naval battles fought in =
Traveller=20
    history, pre 3I?</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>I don't know, =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>but as sheer speculation, I'd put them =

    as</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>1 battle - Vilani, =
pre-First=20
    Imperium</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; a battle that marked =
the Ziru=20
    Sirka as the Master</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; in Charted=20
    Space.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>3 battles - during the =
First Imperium:=20
    one battle that set the</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; coreward limit of =
Imperial Space=20
    vs.the Vargr, one&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; battle that =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>was &quot;the most serious threat to=20
    </FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; Vilani Space&quot;, =
pre-Terran,=20
    and one battle that marked</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; the epic end of an =
anti-Vilani=20
    revolt.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - during the =
Interstellar=20
    Wars.&nbsp; One battle that</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; gave the first sign =
that the=20
    Terran's were Serious, and a&nbsp;</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; second that marked =
the End of=20
    the Imperium (The Battle </FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>&nbsp; of Dingir, =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier><FONT size=3D2>8th Interstellar =
War?)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - the Rule of =
Man.&nbsp; Both=20
    of them involving</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; warfare =
among the Naval=20
    Nobility, highlighting the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; disintergration of the =
Ramshakle=20
    Imperium's leadership.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>2 battles - during the Long =

    Night.&nbsp; One battle being </FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; a pyhrric =
victory,=20
    improvishing two cultures that could </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; have ended the Long Night =
centuries=20
    earlier, if they didn't</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; improvish themselves in =
war. A second=20
    battle marking </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; the height of the pirate =
Reaver's=20
    fleet.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>1 battle marking the rise of the =
Sylean=20
    Confederation</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>&nbsp; as an interstellar=20
    power.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>OK, so it's 11=20
    battles....</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>Anyway's, =
interstellar=20
    civilization has been around </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>-9235 (The =
Vilani), and the=20
    First Imperium</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>ruled from about =
- -5273 to -2204=20
    (Offical ending:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>September 14, =
A.D.2299, on=20
    Vland, according to </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library">http://users.netac=
cess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library</A></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/Library/Int_wars.htm">/Int_=
wars.htm.</A>=20
    )&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier=20
    size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>That's </FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier size=3D2>over=20
    3000 years for the </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>First Imperium </FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier=20
    size=3D2>(!), and 9000</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>years for human interstellar=20
    civilization.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>That's a lot of =
history with=20
    rather limited warfare, </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>but then again =
the Vilani are=20
    more bureaucratic</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>than =
militaristic. Moreover,=20
    they had a weakness for</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>genocide, even =
more than the=20
    Solomani, so&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>few subject =
peoples would rebel=20
    twice.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>And on the side... the =
First Imperium=20
    became 'decadent'</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>from -3000.&nbsp; If you =
assume that=20
    Vilani trading ship's</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>visited Earth =
pre-decadence, then the=20
    occassional visit</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>would end at about 900 AD=20
    (&quot;decadence&quot; implying the</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>end of cross-border =
expeditions by=20
    unregistered</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>'free traders', never =
numerous even at=20
    the height of </FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DCourier>the First=20
    Imperium).&nbsp;</FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DCourier></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>Alvin =
Plummer</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>OK now because =
they you have=20
    listed 11 naval battles that are crucial in history that doesn't =
mean that=20
    there wasn't more</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>remember the =
IIeish rebalion=20
    from the empire. or the 5 fointer wars</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>and the time with =
the empires=20
    of the flag in the 600's there was battles fought there they just =
aren't the=20
    subject of the movies and books and public Intrest that the fist =
solomani=20
    enconter with the valini or the battle with the vargar. then there =
was the=20
    pacifaction campaigns that had to be many battles =
right.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>there is alot of =
history there=20
    just not alot of it is canon </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier size=3D2>IMTU: I have it =
lots of=20
    battlefields and monuments to fallen captains and the like to add to =
the=20
    history..</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DCourier=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDBC62.E0F03F20--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:49:51 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

At 10:11 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Just reading a thread "Navy Movies" in the sci.military.naval newsgroup.
>TML'ers may want to take a look at these movies, and
>graph a few of their idea's and plot's to the Imperial Navy
>(Or Solomani, or Zho, or...)

A decent Navy movie to port to Traveller is "Down Periscope".  Kesley
Grammer plays a mverick submarine officer assign a rustbucket old diesel
sub for a wargame.  He has to sneak past the nuclear navy to launch
simulated attacks on Charleston harbor and the Norfolk naval base.
Unfortunantly, one of the Admirals overseeing the games is determined to
make him fail, and saddles him with a less than stellar crew.

Funny movie, and I could easily see a similar scenario for a
Navy-orientated campaign.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:07:04 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

At 12:11 AM 7/31/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net> wrote:

>>It's a jump to the left.... and a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight...
>
>Ermm.... how many parsecs is that jump?

Straight to this world:

Transsexual/Transylvania A-867830-E     A622 G2v

Transsexual was seeded by the Ancients with humans 300,000 years ago.  The
mild climate and abundant, edible life lead to a fairly hedonistic society
to develop.  Transylvanians, as they call themselves, grew to excel in
genetic and biological engineering.

The world is ruled by an insular Royal family, who appear to be more
interested in plotting against one another than actually ruling the planet.
 Citizens have great freedom to what this wish.  Society is highly
segregated, with abuse of lower classes common.

Transylvanians have little concept of modesty of sexual restraint.  This
has lead to the world being posted as an Amber Zone due to certain
misunderstandings in the past.  Land at your own risk!

Oddly, there is some evidence that a Transylvanian research team reached
Terra around -2540, landing near the settlement of Denton, Ohio.


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|--------------------------------------|
| "Oscar Wilde only wishes he was this |
|  gay!"                 -Mike, MST3K  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:44:56 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw

At 02:46 AM 7/31/98 +0200, you wrote:
>> 
>> >UFP Terra Secondus

>No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
>again.

I believe this world is from the original Star Trek episode "Bread and
Circuses"
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:18:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Why _not_ to have UWPs in G:Traveller (was Re: Behind The Claw)

Volker A. Greimann writes:
> > 
> > >UFP Terra Secondus
> No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
> again.
It's in there, he just left it out.

> > >Population 4,200,000, Impoersonal Bureaucracy, Law Level 6, TL 9.
> remember however, that Traveller TL and Gurps TL DO NOT match!

Therefore, any UWPs published for G:Traveller will indicate _GURPS_ tech level,
not Traveller tech level.  In addition, UWPs will probably indicate GURPS
control rating, not Traveller law level.  Neither of those changes will
increase anyone's understanding of anything....

> Thus, there will be a certain amount of confusion, unless there is a TL
> conversion-table in the G:T rulebook!
There is.

> Secondly, why write it out? The UPP only takes about a page to explain
And that page should probably be there.  However, aside from that page, a UWP
is basically a way to compress information about a world into a largely
unusable form which is almost impossible to read without a computer, so why
bother actually _printing_ any UWPs?  Just print tables, with column headers,
and people who aren't addicted to UWPs will find it much more readable.  If I
were a newcomer, I'd much rather have:
World Name    Loc  Port Size  Atmos Hydr Popul Govmt   CR  TL Notes
Regina        1910 A    10500 Dense  80%  734m Imp Bur  5  10 Rich, Capital
than: Regina 1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp

> And Gurps players
> would be weaned on the UPPs making it easier for them to understand
> Traveller sourcebooks and thus allowing them to purchase them without
> havibg to also buy the rules!
GURPS players, being sane, have little interest in being weaned on UWPs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:35:18 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] HTML encoded messages

Please can those of you who are posting with html encoding on stop doing it
as it messes the Digest up?

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:29:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0 (Less Long)

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>SDM>It actually went a bit further than you think. We had got about 8
>>subsectors into Dagudashaag when IG went under.
>
>	And you stopped because ...?

Iminent non-payment from IG amongst other things. It was due to be
submitted around a month after IG started to go belly up. At this point
BITS/CORE stopped sending material in case of copyright problems. What was
left to do was complete some sectors, some serious editting to pull it all
in line (IGs failure to let us know what was in upcoming books caused
problems with new Pocket Empires appearing as we worked!) and draft the
drawings/maps. This was to have been a profits to charity book.

>>Shame really, it would have been a nice playground with background
>for the
>>whole of M0, competing PEs and some really nice plot hooks (a few
>>ex-Interstellar Confederacy forces out for revenge - Doug Berry did
>a
>>gorgeous ship design).
>
>	There's always homes for freelance efforts; maybe not paying ones,
>but I know you could find half-dozen website that'll kill for it.

Mine for a start. ;-)

It is presently held to see what is going on with the new publisher. It is
possible that it may appear as a BITS publication in the future (but there
are higher priorities in the 101 series at the moment). If all else fails I
will post my subsector and ask Doug if he ever recovered the ship designs
from an Excel crash.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:03:35 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re:T4 vs GT vs T5

Hi-
   I'm about to initiate a new group into Travellers but undecided what to
suggest they buy for reference books ( I have all mine going back to CT, but
don't like to loan them out). I'm not inclined to go with T4 or earlier as
getting the books is tough. So... it's GT or T5. Now my questions:
   
   1. Will GT and T5 support each other or will they be totally different
universes (similar to the jump we'll take going from T4 to GT)?
   2. If I go with GT, what other Gurps books do we need to get? Or can we
just use GT and BTC? I haven't used any products Gurps before.
   3. I'd love to hold off for T5 from Marc but when will it come out? I know
from his postings he's looking for a publisher......but is there a timeline
yet?

   On a personal note- to all of you that have been involved in creating
Traveller over the years, from CT forward,  thanks!  It's made my
world/universe a richer place.
   
   Jay LaRosee
A geezer that remembers Allen Sheppards first flight (we attended the same
high school-different years), watched Star Trek on TV before it was reruns,
and began playing CT from the LBB's!
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re:T4 vs GT vs T5

JLAROSEE@aol.com writes:

Can't really answer other questions, but for this one:
>    2. If I go with GT, what other Gurps books do we need to get? Or can we
> just use GT and BTC? I haven't used any products Gurps before.
 
You could in theory use GT and GURPS Lite (which is available free on the web,
at www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite, and is a good introduction to the game
regardless).  In practice quite a lot of other books might be desireable;
obvious likely candidates include:
GURPS Basic <includes quite a bit of stuff you may want, such as psionics>
GURPS Compentium II _or_ GURPS Space <rules for alien atmospheres, gravity, and
the like; GURPS Space also has world-construction rules>

Lower priority include:
GURPS Compendium I <more character creation stuff>
GURPS Vehicles <item creation.  Equivalent to Fire Fusion and Steel>
GURPS Ultratech and Ultratech 2 (a lot of advanced equipment, much of which is
debatable for a GT campaign in any case, because GURPS generally has better
microtechnology than Traveller).

Quite a lot of other books could be interesting, but aren't particularly
necessary to Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:50:22 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 vs GT vs T5

In a message dated 98-07-31 14:05:18 EDT, you write:

1. Will GT and T5 support each other or will they be totally different
 universes (similar to the jump we'll take going from T4 to GT)?

Theoretically, GT is sent in a divergent universe in which Strephon is not
assassinated. And it uses the Gurps rules instead of the Traveller rules. Does
that count as the same universe or a different universe?

2. If I go with GT, what other Gurps books do we need to get? Or can we
 just use GT and BTC? I haven't used any products Gurps before.

3. I'd love to hold off for T5 from Marc but when will it come out? I know
 from his postings he's looking for a publisher......but is there a timeline
yet?

I am negotiating for a publisher. I won't rush the deal, butI have hopes we'll
see things out for T5 in 1999.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:56:27 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terra TL consistency

In a message dated 7/30/98 10:05:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bonnevil@ima.umn.edu writes:

<< Yes.  In fact, as I recall an argument can be made that the Solomani have
 a minor technological advantage over the invaders.  I think that most of
 the continental army formations were tech-14 for certain. >>

From what I remember of the game Invasion: Earth, the Solomani units were all
regular army units, equipped to TL-14 (w/ the exception of the Home Guard
units).  The Imperial units, on the other hand, were almost all TL-13 units,
colonial units as I recall;  there were a few elite Marine formations at TL-14
I believe.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:34:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

Seth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I ran into this stuff at my local second hand bookstore. I have all of them
already (and I paid a lot more for them; drat!) :

The Traveller Adventure: $7.50
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mine...they're shipping it out Monday. <g>

Now if I can just find a similarly shopworn copy of original Striker
for a price like that, I'll be a happy CT collector.
Collecting for reading & ideas, mind you, thus I'm not picky about
how mint-condition it looks on my shelf.

Thanks Seth, I'd been looking for a copy of this but all the places
who had it wanted collector's prices for it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #702
**********************************

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1998 #703</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B>
Date:	8/1/98 4:15:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM


Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 703



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Terra Secondus
Re:T4 vs GT vs T5
Re:T4 vs GT vs T5
Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #702
Re: T4 vs GT vs T5
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
Re: Traveller stuff for sale
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
GURPS Traveller in German
Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?
Behind the Claw
Starport cameo - Lyons Carlton

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:09:13 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Terra Secondus

>>No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
>>again.
>
>I believe this world is from the original Star Trek episode "Bread and
>Circuses"
>- --
>

Precisely the inspiration I used... as it was airing at the time I wrote
that. It was merely an example to illustrate the type of entries in use.
Since I don't have access myself, and someone who does allowing me more
than just reading over their shoulder would violate the playtest
agreement... a non-TU example was a wonderful way of approaching the
situation.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:21:27 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re:T4 vs GT vs T5

>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:03:35 EDT
>From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
>Subject: Re:T4 vs GT vs T5
>
>Hi-
>   I'm about to initiate a new group into Travellers but undecided what to
>suggest they buy for reference books ( I have all mine going back to CT, but
>don't like to loan them out). I'm not inclined to go with T4 or earlier as
>getting the books is tough. So... it's GT or T5. Now my questions:
>
>   1. Will GT and T5 support each other or will they be totally different
>universes (similar to the jump we'll take going from T4 to GT)?

Some material will be suitable for cross-fertilization of ideas.  Prior to
1116, all of the GT Canon is, effectively, the mainstream OTU. Rules
mechanics and stuff derived directly from them will be incompatable.
However, if you go with GURPS, remember that almost all Traveller materials
since MT started have included some background information, and many have
quite a bit, of variing detail levels. GT seems to be going that way, as
well.

>   2. If I go with GT, what other Gurps books do we need to get? Or can we
>just use GT and BTC? I haven't used any products Gurps before.

Start with GURPS Basic. Everything else is optional.


Add the compendia next. I Reccomend Compendium 1 as a required read/use; it
gives all the advantages and disadvantages, skills, and optional attribute
rules, and will allow you to tailor the feel of the game.
compendium 2 is nice but not vital, especially not for players.
Behind the Claw as soon as it comes out.
Vehicles 2nd if you want to design craft of all kinds.
GURPS Space has a few useful items that may or may not be duplicated
elsewhere; wait until GT is out... when I see exactly what's in it, I'll
post some commentary.



William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:37:41 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:T4 vs GT vs T5

Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:03:35 EDT, JLAROSEE@aol.com
>    I'm about to initiate a new group into Travellers but undecided what to
> suggest they buy for reference books ( I have all mine going back to CT, but
> don't like to loan them out). I'm not inclined to go with T4 or earlier as
> getting the books is tough. So... it's GT or T5. Now my questions:

>    1. Will GT and T5 support each other or will they be totally different
> universes (similar to the jump we'll take going from T4 to GT)?

GT is the same universe up through the CT timeline.  After the
Fifth Frontier War it begins to diverged (particularly when 
Strephon isn't assasinated :-).  The game mechanics are
suited for using GURPs with Traveller fairly generally,
the background material is the same for stuff until
they diverge, then it inculdes stuff that doesn't appear
in other timelines.  A big part of the GT book is the
library data entries which are fine for a CT or Mellieu 0
campaign if you just ignore the stuff that hasn't happened yet.

>    2. If I go with GT, what other Gurps books do we need to get? Or can we
> just use GT and BTC? I haven't used any products Gurps before.

As Loren mentioned, you probably could get GT and "squeak by"
with GURPS Lite (which can be down loaded for free from SJG).
Getting GURPS Basic would be fine.  Other books have stuff
that you might like but certainly don't need to get if you don't
want to.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:57:05 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

Thanks. Let me know if you see Beltstrike, Prison Planet, Signal Gk, and
Secret of the Ancients, and we're even. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:58:57 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

>Mine...they're shipping it out Monday. <g>
>
>Now if I can just find a similarly shopworn copy of original Striker
>for a price like that, I'll be a happy CT collector.

You're lucky Walt. I've been looking for a copy of Battle Riders for years;
anyone on the TML have suggestions?

My main interest is in a tactical space combat system able to handle
large-scale engagements at a level of detail greater than Mayday. Can
anyone suggest a good system? Wasn't Bruce of the Definitive Sensors
working on a space combat system?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:49:04 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #702

>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:09:10 -0400
>From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
>
>    And just out of curiosity, what were the ten most crucial
>    naval battles fought in Traveller history, pre 3I?
>    I don't know, but as sheer speculation, I'd put them as

<snip>

>    OK now because they you have listed 11 naval battles that are =
>crucial in history that doesn't mean that there wasn't more

I was ignoring warfare that occurred after the foundation of
the Third Imperium.  Also, I am ignoring non-Vilani battles.


>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:35:18 +0100
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: [OT] HTML encoded messages
>
>Please can those of you who are posting with html encoding on stop doing it
>as it messes the Digest up?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dom
>

I'm trying!

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:26:39 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: T4 vs GT vs T5

- ----------
> Von: CardSharks@aol.com
> In a message dated 98-07-31 14:05:18 EDT, you write:
> I am negotiating for a publisher. I won't rush the deal, butI have hopes we'll
> see things out for T5 in 1999.
> 
> Marc
Please take care that this publisher mangaes things better in all respects (quality, PR, marketing, etc.). Traveller cant stand
another disaster like IG!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:38:21 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

I would be more than happy to give this another try (my copy of LOM is
apparently MIA in the mail) but I would prefer to see it shipped UPS or Fed
Ex...someone to whom I have recourse (tracking #, etc.) if something goes
wrong.  I know I would be willing to pay extra for the added peace of mind.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:43:55 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller stuff for sale

In a message dated 7/30/98 20:18:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 The Traveller Adventure: $7.50
 Alien Realms: $3.50
 Alien Realms: $4.50
 MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia: $6.00
 MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook: $6.00
 The Early Adventures (DGP's reprint of AB-101's first 4 adventures in
 MegaTraveller format): $5.00 >>


Hehehe...I hope you enjoy them;  I passed them all over last week cuz I had
them all already (although I had considered going back to get the Trav
adventure, it was in better shape than mine.)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:45:37 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

In a message dated 7/30/98 23:25:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
aplummer@idirect.com writes:

<< Non-Submarine Movies (in addition to those already mentioned) >>


I'd like to add "Captain Horatio Hornblower" to this list...Napoleonics-era
Royal Navy.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:46:12 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: GURPS Traveller in German

I do not know whether or not GURPS Traveller will be translated into German.
That depends on how the German distributor feels about its sales potential.
Not everything is translated, remember.

Right now, they are working on the Discworld translation.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 05:06:39 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

Some people may wish to check this out if they want TNE book

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23485041

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:26:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

In mail you write:

> Non-Submarine Movies (in addition to those already mentioned):
> They Were Expendable
> Corvette K-225 (British/Canadian)
> In Which We Serve (British)
> Under 10 Flags (Italian??)
> Bridges at Toko-Ri
> The Fighting Lady
> Sailor of the King (British)
> Mr. Roberts

There's a little known *sequel* to "Mr. Roberts" called "Ensign Pulver"
(i think that's the name). It starts almost immediately after the end
of the first movie and has poor Pulver struggling against the crew
who've gone back to deciding that he's an ineffectual officer and can't
do anything about the captain.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:29:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OffT: Old Navy Movies: OnT: Major Naval Battles?

In mail you write:

> At 10:11 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Just reading a thread "Navy Movies" in the sci.military.naval newsgroup.
>>TML'ers may want to take a look at these movies, and
>>graph a few of their idea's and plot's to the Imperial Navy
>>(Or Solomani, or Zho, or...)
>
> A decent Navy movie to port to Traveller is "Down Periscope".  Kesley
> Grammer plays a mverick submarine officer assign a rustbucket old diesel
> sub for a wargame.  He has to sneak past the nuclear navy to launch
> simulated attacks on Charleston harbor and the Norfolk naval base.
> Unfortunantly, one of the Admirals overseeing the games is determined to
> make him fail, and saddles him with a less than stellar crew.
>
> Funny movie, and I could easily see a similar scenario for a
> Navy-orientated campaign.

I caught part of that on cable at a friend's house. Not bad.

Which reminds me. *Years* ago(early to mid 60s?) I was watching what I
*think* was a movie, but might have been an episode in a TV show.
Anyway, they had an excercise where a US sub was trying to sneak past
patrols into a naval base (I assume it was Bremerton, since I believe
Puget sound was involved). At one point they rendevous with some
"spies" from on shore who are in a small fishing boat with a noisy
outboard. They sneak past at least one destroyer at periscope depth
with the fishing boat covering them. They even have the guys in the
fishing boat drawing diagrams on a clipboard and showing them to the
(barely awash) periscope that's on the side away from the ship!

Does that ring any bells for anyone?

ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
buy the rest of the books! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1998 00:00:00 +0000
From: lars@orplid.shnet.org (Lars Becker)
Subject: Behind the Claw

Hi Lars,

 > I vote for this, too. And if it's only a supplemental pages -
 > anyone alse to sign the list?

Here! 

- - Lars.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:48:45
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Starport cameo - Lyons Carlton

Lyons Carlton ; Age 48, ex-Free Trader 868744

Streetwise-2, Broker-1, Liaison-3, Brawling-1, Pilot-1, Navigator-1,
Legal-1, Engineering-2

A likeable but disorginised rogue, he is involved in a complicated scheme
to start up a passenger liner between several worlds in the subsector. The
complications involve his attempted exploitation of a recent policy of
unofficially encouraging development of underdeveloped worlds.

(if YTU does this as a matter of offical policy, great. If not, it is a
bright idea of a Subsector Marquis or similar, who has put the word out
that a couple of demonstration projects would be Well Received at court)

His plan involves gaining start-up funding from several different Imperial
authorities for a passenger line between several moderate-population,
low-starport worlds. Needless to say, each of the Imperial departments
thinks it is the only one supporting the otherwise-commercially sound project.

(depending on YTU, the orginisations may include the Bureau of
Colonisation, the Bureau of Trade, the IN [perhaps thru it's Pension
Funds], the IISS and individual wealthy nobles).

He claims to be an Imperially Qualified pilot, engineer and navigator, but
his claims are supported by copied documentation - the orginals have been
forwarded to him from the Sector Capital, but are apparently stuck in
Imperial paperwork. In reality, he has been struck off the register pending
his provision of documentation from a badly-failed safety inspection. 

Similarly, his commercial references are from a couple of subsectors away,
and do not stand up to intense scrutiny (he has actually spent most of the
last 15 years doing salvage of small caches of old IN gear, via a fifty
year old datatape of locations of Imperial Reserve Caches. The gear dates
back several hundred years to the war scares accompanying the Solomani Rim
War, when the Imperium feared other attempts at seccession. The equipment
was obsolete when cached, and in most cases is now valuable only as scrap).

His cash position is incredibly poor - in fact, he is broke, and his
administrative and financial skills are clearly not up to scratch for
orginising such a project.

To his credit, he has arranged several contracts for tens of people and
hundreds of tons of cargo to and from each planet - but these plans are
contingent on getting a brand new 2-gee jump-3 freighter to run the routes.

He has also linded up local government permissions at some (but not all) of
the worlds. Closer examination may reveal that grandiose promises have been
made to the local authorities on each.

Carlton is currently seeking crews and trainers for the project. Part of
what has been promised is that the new line will take on a particular
number of trainees, and these people will be up-skilled to Imperial
standards - training that is usually not available for citizens of dirtball
worlds in the boondocks.

Unfortunatly, the plans as written will require too many trainees for the
number of skilled crew on the ship for either safety or proper training of
the trainees ...

Adventure hooks include chasing around the subsector doinf financial
viability on the project for an interested patron (who almost certainly
doesnt want to be told 'No'), being recruited by Carlton to help run the
project, cleaning up the mess afterwards when failure is finally declared,
being a creditor's representitive trying to get money for unpaid bills out
of Carlton, or being contracted to actually find and negotiate for a
suitable ship.

Note : Any resemblences to anyone alive or dead is purely coincidental. Any
resemblences to events connected with <deleted for reasons related to
Crimes Act 1914> are also coincidental. Trust me. This could never happen.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #703
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 704



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Antimatter and Monopoles
Phoenix Command
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
2300ad starmaps (offtopic)
Calling David Nilsen
Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
Re: Phoenix Command
Re: Phoenix Command
Honor Harrington
Re: Exothermic Hell
Re: Newbie Questions
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Newbie Questions
The Gentry, Genechain's, Virtu/Virtue, Christianity and Aliens, Politics, Book Review

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:02:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Antimatter and Monopoles

A question for those of scientific bent:

How much antimatter would you need to push an STL colony ship at 1G to,
say, Alpha Centauri?

In essence, I suppose I'm asking: how many kiloJoules you can get out of a
gram of antimatter?

And, if anyone knows: roughly how long might it take to produce that much
antimatter, if you had, say, a woppin' huge accellerator powered by a big
solar array on Mercury?

An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in large
quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no? If so, they would be make
a much safer starship fuel than antimatter. But would the mutual
annihilation of positive and negative monopoles provide as much thrust?

Hope someone can help us out on this. I'm co-designing a hard-SF game
background with former TMLers Ross Coburn, Derroch Elliot, and sundry
others.

Thanks in advance.

Best,

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
           "The future is simply amnesia in reverse."
                    -- Christopher Dewdney

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:13:19 +0100
From: Richard Talbot <richardt@post.almac.co.uk>
Subject: Phoenix Command

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------DA3E02A2F311F5E51A222EFE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi folks

I wonder if you can help me out.

I have to try and get hold of a copy of a supplement for Phoenix
Command  by Leading Edge Games called the Hand to Hand Combat Guide.  It
is now out of print so I think a photocopy is probably in order.  If
anyone possesses this supplement could you email me urgently.  I will
recompense people for all costs within reason.

Thanks again

Richard Talbot

richardt@post.almac.co.uk

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n:              Talbot;Richard 
org:            BITS Scotland
email;internet: richardt@post.almac.co.uk
title:          MR
note:           Roleplayer, Fixer of Computers, Sad Civil Servant  
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
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version:        2.1
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- --------------DA3E02A2F311F5E51A222EFE--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 17:18:58 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

At 10:38 PM 7/31/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>
>I would be more than happy to give this another try (my copy of LOM is
>apparently MIA in the mail) but I would prefer to see it shipped UPS or Fed
>Ex...someone to whom I have recourse (tracking #, etc.) if something goes
>wrong.  I know I would be willing to pay extra for the added peace of mind.

Ummm...are you in the US? If so, LOM should have arrived by now, or by
sometime next week at the latest. If you're outside the US, then you've
still got a good four (4) weeks *at least* before it will arrive. 

l8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:31:04 +1000
From: Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
Subject: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic)

Sorry to post 2300 stuff to this group, but there isn't a better place (??).
Does anyone know of a source of a good computer starmap that shows 3d
representations of stars that can be rotated etc. I'm trying to set up a
2300 Starcruiser campaign for my son (Lone Wolf) and would love to do the
map on the PC.
thanks
Kim White, Australia

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:33:16 +1000
From: Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
Subject: Calling David Nilsen

Is David Nilsen (he wrote articles for GDW's Challenge magazine years ago)
anywhere out there? Or anyone in contact with him? Please e-mail me at
witepapr@access.net.au
thanks,
Kim White, Australia

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 17:24:36 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Thanks. Let me know if you see Beltstrike, Prison Planet, Signal Gk, and
> Secret of the Ancients, and we're even. :-)

You might want to check with MM as he may have some of these available.
I have the last three, but unfortunately they're not for sale. I can
help you with specific information from them though. Contact me
directly  at my e-mail above.

Jim
PS: I would have loved to get the Traveller Adventure but was not quick
enough on the viewing the list. Oh well!! Maybe next time.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 17:46:49 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

Richard Hough wrote:

> You're lucky Walt. I've been looking for a copy of Battle Riders for years;
> anyone on the TML have suggestions?

Did you try The Sentry Box, 1835 18 AVE. S.W. Calgary AB CANADA T3C 0K2
They're on the net   SENTRYBX@NUCLEUS.COM   , have mail order and on
line shopping plus will answer direct enquiry. That is where I got my
copy (new) earlier this year. You can phone them direct at (403)
245-2121 or Fax (403) 245-2272. Shipping free on orders over $100 and
really good service to me anyway. 

> My main interest is in a tactical space combat system able to handle
> large-scale engagements at a level of detail greater than Mayday. Can
> anyone suggest a good system? Wasn't Bruce of the Definitive Sensors
> working on a space combat system?

If that is not successful, I may be able to help with specific
information from the game if you contact me directly at my e-mail above.

	Yours truly
		Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:13:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Phoenix Command

On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:13:19 +0100, Richard Talbot wrote:

> Hi folks
> 
> I wonder if you can help me out.
> 
> I have to try and get hold of a copy of a supplement for Phoenix
> Command  by Leading Edge Games called the Hand to Hand Combat Guide.  It
> is now out of print so I think a photocopy is probably in order.  If
> anyone possesses this supplement could you email me urgently.  I will
> recompense people for all costs within reason.

I *think* my local game shop might still have a copy.  I'll be heading out
there on Tuesday and check for you.



James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
             ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

 "Be wewy wewy quiet... I'm hunting Womulins!!"
                         --Lt. Commander Fudd

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:46:56 -0700
From: Skoal <skoal@mail.gci-net.com>
Subject: Re: Phoenix Command

At 01:13 AM 8/2/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi folks
>
>I wonder if you can help me out.
>
>I have to try and get hold of a copy of a supplement for Phoenix
>Command  by Leading Edge Games called the Hand to Hand Combat Guide.  It
>is now out of print so I think a photocopy is probably in order.  If
>anyone possesses this supplement could you email me urgently.  I will
>recompense people for all costs within reason.

I have not seen that one for almost a year.
If you need the Modern military small arms data or WW2 data, 
I can help..


http://www.gci-net.com/users/s/skoal/tnet4.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:20:30 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Honor Harrington

>ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
>Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
>buy the rest of the books! :-)

I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new one
coming out next month.  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 14:42:49 +1000
From: Morgan <jasper@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell

Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> >If we accept the postulate given to me by Theresa Banyan during Freshman
> >year, that "...it will be a cold day in hell before I sleep with you..."and
> >take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual
> >relations with her, then "A" cannot be true.
> >
> >Thus and therefore hell is exothermic. QED "
> >
> >The student, Tim Graham, got the only "A".
>
> He also made a serious logical error.  Her statement actually equates to "if
> I sleep with you, you'll know it's a cold day in hell" not "as soon as
> there's a cold day in hell, I'm jumping your bones."
>
> Joe Saul
> jmsaul@umich.edu

  Yes, but wasn't Persian Hell cold. It depends on which Hell you look at the
problem with.

Morgan      :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 14:53:09 +1000
From: Morgan <jasper@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions

> "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> >So that would make T4.1 actually called....
> >
> >Traveller 98!
>
> Hmm. I was hoping for Traveller 8.5 or Traveller X....
>
> Dom

Well, IBM seems to have covered Star Trek with OS/2 Warp.

Do you really want Traveller associated with M$. Go with Mac or better
still, Linux. Functional and cheap to run. I think M$ is better
associated with AD&D, constant reprints, minor fixes and rarely
admitting you were wrong.

Morgan       :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:07:17 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

At 12:20 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
>>Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
>>buy the rest of the books! :-)
>
>I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new one
>coming out next month.  

I wonder what her skills and UCP would be...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:07:02 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions

>Well, IBM seems to have covered Star Trek with OS/2 Warp.
>
>Do you really want Traveller associated with M$. Go with Mac or better
>still, Linux. Functional and cheap to run.

And very much in the niche market - exactly what we are trying to break out
of being, no?  ;)

I wish that Traveller had the name recognition that Windows does - rather
than the admiration of the relatively few greybeards that Linux does.

Apologies to the list, normally I try and ignore anything that dips into the
O/S wars...

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
(ahem - MCSE)
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:42:05 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: The Gentry, Genechain's, Virtu/Virtue, Christianity and Aliens, Politics, Book Review

Yep, this is about one of my favourite subject's
in Traveller: the nobility.

Well, almost.

My post is actually about the folk who aren't
noble, but are fairly close: for sake of
discussion, let's call them the Gentry

============================

Rehash of the Imperial
systemof Nobility: go ahead and skip
if you already know the drill

============================

If I recall correctly, there are three level's of
nobility in Traveller, Honour nobles,
Rank nobles, and High nobles.  Honour nobility
is granted as a reward for service to the
Emperor, or the Imperium at large: this is
almost *always* a knightly or sub-Baron
rank, IMTU: you don't give someone a
political position over the billion's
of a subsector only because of fame.

Exceptions have been known to occur:
ie. a genetic engineer with Imperium-wide
fame given Baron rank, and being put in
charge of a thinly-settled subsector.
The exceptions tend to revolve around service
to the Emperor personally, the Imperial military,
or careful political manuvering.

Megacorp personnel are notable for being given
severely-weakened noble positions: for example,
the *Count* Tukera, who merely happens to OWN
a megacorp, yet has a fief of less than 10 systems!
(ONE high-pop system, if playing by Offical Universe
rules.)  Honour nobility is inheritable, I think, but again
is usually a lesser knighthood of one form or another.

(I use a slightly-modified version of Hans
Rancke-Madsen's system of knighthood: where the
class of knight is directly related to your
powerbase in population and/or wealth)

Note that Archdukes can grant knighthood's, but only
of their Domain's order (or lesser knighthood's,
IMTU ).

Okay, that lead's us to Rank nobility (despite what High
Nobles may say, they aren't particularly smelly...).
Basically, they are given a Patent of Nobility strictly
as part of their duties in the service of the Emperor.
They can keep their Patent until death, but it then
revert's back to the Emperor: in other word's, it isn't
inheritable.  Almost all of these folk are Baron's,
with the occassional subsector Duke or sector
Senior Duke (subsector Viscount, IMTU).

These nobles work in the Imperial Organs of State,
and while they don't run world's, subsector's or
sector's, have the equivelant power. (For example, the
Sector Admiral is often a Duke, while the Imperial
Minister of Trade on Capital is ranked as a Senior Duke.)
Rank nobility are way more common than High Nobility.

High Nobility in Offical Traveller refer's
to old, powerful noble houses within the
Imperium, usually holding *dozens* of major
ruling titles, most of which is inheritable.
I'd guess that there are only
about 100 of these houses in the offical
Imperium, and maybe 10,000 -
100,000 high-nobility total. (Nobles in Offical
Traveller have such small families...)
Lot's of these nobles individually
hold multiple titles.

No special term is used for inheritable
noble titles of Count or less.

Note that all nobles of Baron or higher
can vote in the Imperial Moot.

============================

End of "setting the scence".  The Old
Hand's can come back now, and review
my personal spin on the nobility....

============================

Now, what about all those second- (and
even farther-back) siblings and relatives?
They have no title or part in the fief: are they
just to be tossed out on their ear?

Hans uses a system of knighthood, setting
people to lower and lower grades of knighthood
the more father-back their relationship is, ending
only at the very lowest level of Imperial
knighhood ("Member of the Third Imperium")
Good enough to set their social standing,
but I'm currently interested in their relationship
to true noble society.

I'm guessing that four degrees of kinship is needed
before any relationship is acknowledged. (ie,


A + B
    |--------------------|
  d + C                D + e
    |                    |
  E + f                g + F
    |                    |
  h + G                H + i
    |                    |
  J + k                l + m
    |                    |
  N + o               p + q

The family relationship between the C (main) branch of
the ruling family and the D (secondary) branch of the
family is recognized in Imperial Noble courts until the
N (5th) generation. Any decendant's outside of the
primary or secondary line are common, and may
not inherit any form of nobility.

If we use Han's system of declining nobility,
and assume that A started out with a
Inheritable Baron title (rank , 24 in Hans system)
then  "H" (the 3th generation,secondary line)
will be of  - at most - rank 18 (Knight of the
Emperor's Guard, say), with the equivelant power
of a small nation of c. 1 million people, barely that
of a decent city.  More likely, he will have already
been disennobled to Member of the Third Imperium
(rank 15, the lowest rank of Knighthood.) without any
but the most basic privileges (which is still notably
more than common subjects, but of little cachet
in real noble circles...).  And after the fifth generation,
by default all secondary-line gentry have
their titles changed from inheritable to honour, and
their children becomes commoners.

This put's serious pressure on lesser-line gentry
to Do Something to gain an Imperial Patent of their
own.

[Question: just how long *is* a generation, on average,
in the Imperium?  Pure-blood Vilani can hit their 200th
year I believe.  Anagathics (and other anti-aging
treatments) is discouraged among the nobility
as just *SO*  *COMMON*, but Emperor's have lived to
150 years of age, and even Archduke Norris is comfortable
with cloning....]

And of course, all this is only applicable to inherited
nobility, not rank nobles.  Honour nobles & gentry can
sometimes pass their title to their designated heir,
but that's it: their other children are commoners.

======================

The genechain

The mainline nobles & gentry keep careful track of
their genetic heritage, both live (ie.siblings,
clones, in-vitros) and stored (DNA  samples, blood
donations, etc).  Also, parental records and
genealogy tables are kept at family strongholds,
the Office of Arms branches at Ducal capitals, and the
Central Noble Registry at Captial.

Physical bloodties become more important the
higher the noble rank.  A Rank Baron is unlikely
to care what stupidity his niece-3rd degree
removed got into, but a Regular Baron
(also "Gene Baron" or "Blood Baron"
in the vernacular) is obligated to keep her in the
straight and narrow, or loose respect among the
gentry and the nobility. ("How can you rule 50
Billion people if you can't govern your own family?")
The nobility has no intention of having any of their
subjects - or their peer's - or the Emperor - decide
that they are Unfit to Rule.

========= Virtu and genus =======

Old Terran nobility believe that they have a Divine Right
to Rule.  Old (First Imperium) nobility believe that
Tradition demands that they rule.  Third Imperium
nobility doesn't believe in either of these things, as a
general rule.  The ability to rule must be re-earned
every day, first by securing a base of power, then by
maintaining this base, while expanding the network of
obligation, duty, and control so *ALL* eventually look to
the noble house for leadership and protection.

The Noble Houses rises and falls based on the power
of that house.  Power comes in several forms: most
noble theorists focus on military, economic and social
forms of dominance.  The nobility, unlike 20th century
secularist's, understand the place of Virtu (in the
Machievellian/pagan sense of the word): they respect
the power of honesty, bravery, learning, discipline, and
even piety, and prefer to work with Virtu, rather
than against it.

They also believe in the genus of a family, the power
of a family name (The early emperor's drew heavily
on the Roman empire for inspiration, and the "genus"
concept fitted well with Vilani attitudes). Everyone fully
intergrated into Imperial culture has a family: nobles
have a House, and all noble houses have certain legal
duties, responsibilities and privileges.

The energy Solomani put into promoting their faith
(monotheistic, statist, or whatever), Imperial's put
into their family.  The Solomani tend to have tight
nuclear families; Imperial families tend to
be huge sprawling things, of which  genetic relationships
tend to be a tangle.  Moreover, following Vilani culture,
Imperial families tend to be "jack-of-all-trades" with everyone
in their special slot, while Solomani families - to the extent
that "family goals" exist - prefer to focus on one thing, and
those siblings that can't/won't do that one thing wander off
to found their own seperated families.


======== Virtu and Virtue =========

The Imperial respect fot Virtu should not be confused with the
Christian virutes  ("But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy,
peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control.  Against such there is no law."
- - Gal. 5:22-23)  The Vilani never made Love much of a
focus for their civilization, prefering Obligation: the
Imperium follow's Vilani though when it comes to absolutes.
Pride (a sin in Christian thought) is considered a Virtu,
while gentleness and goodness is considered fine
in loyal servant's, but not for the Nobility.  Long,
multi-generation hatred's are *savoured* by most
nobility: of course, people who act this way have no
place in Heaven.

Even so, there are a LOT of Solomani nobility, and a good-
sized, influencial minority are Christian in some fashion or
another.  They don't change the basic character of the
Imperium, but they do soften it, tending to round out it's rough
edges.

========Imperial Culture =========

The elites set the tone for society in general.
The reverence of the pagan Virtu's exhibited by most
nobility - Vilani and Solomani - is imitated by
the typical Imperial, especially Imperials
closely intertwined with interstellar society and commerce.

Money and Power is desired, but not as an end
in itself as much as a way to gain a good and honoured name.
A good family name - even as a commoner - can open
`door's that are closed to other's.  Everyone takes for
granted that some goals will take year's, even decades
to achieve, but Vilani-acculterated societies are quite
comfortable with this mode of thought.  (Typically, the more
powerful you are, the longer the timeframe.)

On the other hand, the typical Imperial is quite capable
of murder if it would promote family/business interests: as long as
it's kept "In the fold",  the Imperium isn't going to set a manhunt
and putting you in jail, and even if they catch you, a high Bloodprice
is usually sufficent to satisfy both plantiff and the accused.

Originally, the Bloodprice was meant as a way for nobles to avoid jail/
vendetta for killing a commoner. Because all things originally reserved for
the upper class have a way of seeping everywhere, the Bloodprice would by
the 1100's be just the way the Imperium does business, IMO.  Inability to
pay the set Bloodprice means some kind of physical punishment, ranging from
lashing ("crimes of passion") to death by torture ("mass murder of innocent
Imperial civilians")

(My Imperium doesn't believe in jail cells for physiological reasons: as a
starship-based culture, the nobility doesn't like the idea of criminals
using up precious air and cargo space in idleness, even on perfectly
decent worlds.)

Besides a flexible attitude toward's killing, Imperial culture is
notoriously unforgiving.  As a general rule, the Nobility has long
memories - and so do the Vilani.  The Third Imperium is not nearly as coldly
genocidal and culturally oppressive as the First Imperium, but it does have
it's fault's, and one of them is a quickness to anger.  This spirit of
small-scale hatred is shown by the insecessant merchant wars (even by
companies that can't make their bank payments), by nobles more than willing
to kill family members who Failed the Clan, by the endless demand for Bounty
Hunters.  To their credit, the high nobility generally put a damper on
things, but watch out if that discipline breaks (as it did in the Rebellion
timeline...)

========Imperial Christian's and the Inhuman =====

It is advisable that Imperial Christians not be mistaken for classic
Imperial Romantics, despite their reputation for softness.
They are generally quietly but deeply humanistic, not so
much hating non-humans as much as viewing them as
basically inhuman, not a part of God's people
("Christ did NOT die for the universe, but only for the
Children of Adam.").

They do recognise that these inhuman's are sentinent,
and even creations of God, and thus worthy of the
Emperor's protection.  They don't mind the Emperor
giving them rewards and Imperial positions: the
inhumans can work hard, care for their friends,
and be just as morally upright as any human: if they show
respect for God-ordained standards of Justice and Truth,
they should be rewarded for it.

Even so, there is a fundamental distance between
Imperial Christians and inhumans, as the
Christians don't believe that the inhumans have
any eternal destiny, either heaven or
hell (except for Grandfather... ).   When you get
right down to it, they just don't *care* about the
mystical, traditionalist Aslan or the atheistic, rationalistic
Hivers.  They have been told to spread the Gospel to
every human, which mean's missionaries to
Zhodane (however much they might hate psionics), not Lair
(however close the Vargr's are to the Solomani).
So long as the inhuman's leaves human property, worship,
and lives alone, they can live as they please.

Your typical Imperial pagan tend's to view the alien's as just like
himself, with furry skin and funny head's.  In much the
same way he view's the gods, with the Vilani
goddess of love as much the same as the Hindu
goddess of love as the same as the Vegan goddess of love.
A Vargr pantheist in the Julian Protectorate is largely
the same as a neo-Dolphin pantheist in the Solomani
Confederation, despite being at opposite end's of Charted
Space.

In contrast, Christ died to save humans, and human's alone.
And the Christian God will tolerate worship of Himself,
and only Himself.  And the Christian is not to be of this world,
but of the world to come.

The body and facial signals that suggest this suble but
fundamental form of rejection are quite low-key: the only
non-human race that can even pick it up are the Vargr.  And
even here, 'it ain't that simple'.  Christian attitudes
range from contempt (twisted mutant dog!) to pity
(a simple dog, used and abused by that proto-demon...)
to friendship (With tongues and hands and minds, God
has blessed you indeed!) to curiosity (Does the Vargr
see God as I see Him?) to the cooly cynical (One of Balaam's
wolves, I see.).  Most Imperial Christians (indeed, most
Solomani) have a more favourable opinion of the Vargr than
of any other inhuman Major race: the very movement's
of the Vargr just "look" right, compared to any of the
inhuman's.

The Vargr have problems understanding the dangerous
stability of human societies.  They don't understand
why humaniti would obey the command's of low charisma
authorities thousand's of light-years away.
Judeo-Christian theology, from an all-powerful
God with an unchanging Law, to a Jewish people who have
stayed theologically the same for longer than
8,000 years, to the very concept of the Good Shepherd
who despises the wolves and cares for the sheep,
to a Final Judgement where the Repentent
rest forever while the Damned fry - all of it freak's
out the Vargr.

Hard-core Imperial Christians tend to provoke
either intense submissiveness or instant
hatred: the very smell/feel of their belief's is the very
epitone of alieness to the Vargr.  The average
Christian doesn't cause problems, although there
may be times when the Vargr get's this uneasy feeling....

========Christians and psionics =======

Some Imperial Christians are quite comfortable
with psionics.  For example, how many Pentecostal
Healing and Prophetic ministries are there, anyway? And how
many times has the Ministry of Justice: Anti-Psionic
Branch taken one look at a typical Charismatic meeting,
seized the minister, and put him away for 25 years?

Other branches of Imperial Christians consider
psionics as thinly-vieled demonism.  ("Complete
with the [Zhodani] moon-god", as the saying goes...).
Of the 20 most successful anti-psionic officers
in the Imperium, 10 are Imperial Christians.  While
the Vilani is solidly anti-psionic, Imperial Solomani
Christian opinion is split down the middle: currently,
the anti-Psionic faction has a thin lead in Christian
intellectual circles.

The basic query from the Christian point of view
is "...and exactly *who* is providing these powers?"
Within the Traveller universe, psionics looks to be
merely an intergral part of human psychology.
In that case, psionics is just a tool that can be used
for good or evil, just like hammer's or starships
or computers or the scientific method.

======Imperial vs. Solomani Christians ====

Imperial Christians are mainly, but not exclusively,
of Solomani or Solomani/Vilani descent.  In both
The Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation,
Christianity is a minority religion, but much less so
in the Confederation (say, 2.5% in the Imperium vs.
15% within the sphere.)  Humanist Christianity in
the Confederation is much more triumphalistic
than in the Imperium, believing that it truly has a
God-given destiny to rule the universe.  (Despite
that philosophy's defeat in the Solomani War).
Moreover, Confed. Christianity is much more focued
in inter-human divisions: instead of Imperial Major & Minor
racial division's, or Imperial Christianity's human/inhuman
divisions, Solomani Christianity prefer's to divide sentience
by...
            Pureblood Solomani
            Mixedblood Solomani
            Alien Human
            Alien Major Non-Human
            Alien Minor Non-Human

Imperial Christians view the first three division's as the
result of Solomani politics: no such basis can be found in the Bible.
They would also group the last two together: the important thing
is that thay are not human, not the amount of political
power they have.

Imperial pagans differ from both viewpoints.  They would either
1) Go for only the Major and Minor racial divisions (This is
     offical Imperial Policy).  In this view, it's the political power that
     matters. (with the Droyne mentioned only because of the Ancients)

 (This used to be decided by "who invented jump drive",
   but we have this small problem with the Aslan...)

2) do a Vilani-centric ranking:
    Pureblood Vilani
    Mixedblood Vilani
    Cultural Vilani
    All other sentience races
3) group all in one big bundle, known as sentient's
      (This view has some
      support in Imperial Law codes)


                  (Note that robotic and non-corporal intelligence isn't
even
                    addressed in these rankings)

======== And finally...======

From National Review's book review
of _Other Worlds: The Search for LIfe in the Universe_
by Michael D. Lemonick (Simon & Schuster)

Review title: The Empty Heavens by Stephen M. Barr

<begin snip>

 For many people, there seems to be something
 more involved in this search for extraterrestrials
 than simple scientific curiosity.  Very likely that
 something is atheism.  As long as man appears
 to be unique and "alone in the universe," he seems
 to be an anomaly, an exception, even, perhaps,
 a miracle.  How much more natural the human race
 would seem if intelligent life were shown to be the
 quite ordinary outcome of planetary chemistry.
 And so, among Martian rocks and radio waves
 from outer space, the secularist searches for
 evidense which would allow him to announce, with
 strange triumph, that man is nothing particularly
 special.

 For the relogious believer, in contrast, extraterrestrial
 life is not an issue of paramount importance.  God
 could just as well have made one or many races of rational
 beings.  The existance of alien life would certainly be of
 great interest, but it would make no difference to religious
 duty or doctrine.

 This brings me to a highly regrettable aspect of
 Lemonick's book.  Although he is a scrupulously
 accurate reporter of scientific matters, he does not
 always try very hard to get his facts straight about
 religion.  If he had, he would know that it has never
 been "Christian dogma" that there is only one
 inhabited world.  He would know that Giordano
 Bruno was burned at the stake for his radical
 theological doctrines rather than for his speculations
 about other worlds.  And he would know that Pope
 John Paul II did not "rescind the Church's
 longstanding objections to Darwin's tehory of evolution."
 (The Catholic Church never condemned or even
 objected to Darwin's theory, and Pope John Paul II
 said nothing, theologically, that went beyond what
 Pope Pius XII said in 1950 in *Humani Generis*.)

 Fortunately, though, Lemonick is more interested in
 the science of the story than in its suposed
 philosophical and religious implications.  An
 so, for all those healthy souls for whom science is
 just science, and alien creatures are just something
 fun to think about, like dinosaurs and Yeti and lost
 civilizations, I recommend this book as a pleasent read.

<end snip>

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #704
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 705



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[OT} Re: Newbie Questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #702
RE: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic) in Traveller-digest V1998 #704
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles
Re: Exothermic Hell
Re: Starport cameo - Lyons Carlton
Re: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic)
Re: Newbie Questions
Re: Honor Harrington
Apologies for Phoenix Command
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 
Re: Exothermic Hell
Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
Maximun envelope of Imperial operations
World Map Gif
re: Honor Harrington

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:07:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT} Re: Newbie Questions

 Morgan <jasper@uq.net.au> wrote:

>> "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>> >So that would make T4.1 actually called....
>> >Traveller 98!
>> Hmm. I was hoping for Traveller 8.5 or Traveller X....

>Well, IBM seems to have covered Star Trek with OS/2 Warp.
>
>Do you really want Traveller associated with M$. Go with Mac or better
>still, Linux. Functional and cheap to run. I think M$ is better
>associated with AD&D, constant reprints, minor fixes and rarely
>admitting you were wrong.

Ahem. The next MacOS release is *8.5*. And *X* is due next year sometime.

Anyway they do admit they were wrong! The literature for Win98 boasted over
2400 bug fixes!

And Traveller is Win95 these days... everything Marc Miller sent out for
playtest on the drafts a while ago was from office 95.. ;-) Fortunately
MacOS8.1 has filters for that...

Dom(Very OT and not intending to post this again).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:58:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #702

"alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>Please can those of you who are posting with html encoding on stop doing it
>>as it messes the Digest up?
>I'm trying!

Looks like you succeeded. Thanks!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:35:08 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic) in Traveller-digest V1998 #704

On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:31:04 +1000, Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
wrote:
> 
> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:31:04 +1000
> From: Kim White <witepapr@access.net.au>
> Subject: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic)
> 
> Sorry to post 2300 stuff to this group, but there isn't a better place
(??).
> Does anyone know of a source of a good computer starmap that shows 3d
> representations of stars that can be rotated etc. I'm trying to set up
a
> 2300 Starcruiser campaign for my son (Lone Wolf) and would love to do
the
> map on the PC.
> thanks
> Kim White, Australia
> 
You should try CHVIEW, a program written by (I think) Jo Grant. It is
accessible from the ftp archives at ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin or
at http://wwwjessen.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/ (That
archive is responding - Trinity wasn't, this morning at least)

It contains much data extracted from C.J. Cherryh's Alliance/Union
universe (hence the name :-)).

regards

Andy Long
================================================================
smtp Email:			andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
						andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:			c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
						s=Long;i=AG;
						o=International
Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237			Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 01:38:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

In mail you write:

> A question for those of scientific bent:
>
> How much antimatter would you need to push an STL colony ship at 1G to,
> say, Alpha Centauri?

Ok, there are *several* problems here. First, at 1 g, you'll run into
*major* relativistic effects long before you hit the halfway point.
That makes things *really* messy.

> In essence, I suppose I'm asking: how many kiloJoules you can get out of a
> gram of antimatter?

Well, you need a gram of matter for each gram of antimatter to
completely convert it to energy. So the answer is E=2mc^2. 

Energy in joules equals twice the mass of antimatter (in kilograms)
times the speed of light squared (in meters/second).

E = 2 * m * (299792458)^2

> And, if anyone knows: roughly how long might it take to produce that much
> antimatter, if you had, say, a woppin' huge accellerator powered by a big
> solar array on Mercury?

Well best I've heard of for even *theoretical* efficiency at producing
antimatter is 1%. So that means that 1% of the energy put nto the
accelerator will become antimatter (at m=E/c^2).

> An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
> be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in large
> quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no?

Nope. *WE* can make antimatter. But even if monpoles exist, you'd need
to *have* one to start producing more (short of some *really* weird
stuff). 

> If so, they would be make a much safer starship fuel than antimatter.
> But would the mutual annihilation of positive and negative monopoles
> provide as much thrust?

Energy is energy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell

Morgan wrote:

>  Yes, but wasn't Persian Hell cold. It depends on which Hell you look at
>the problem with.

There is that.  (Though it doesn't cure his poor logic in that last step.)

ObTraveller:  I wonder what temperature the Vilani hell is/was?

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:00:04 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: Re: Starport cameo - Lyons Carlton

 Ian or Katts give a remarkable scenario/adventure hook, filled with
intrigue and deviousness, then end with:
"Note : Any resemblences to anyone alive or dead is purely coincidental.
Any
resemblences to events connected with <deleted for reasons related to
Crimes Act 1914> are also coincidental. Trust me. This could never
happen."

Though I rather suspect that Ian or Katts is referring to a more recent,
and real-world incident near and undear to a Traveller's heart, I was
struck by the similarity to the Mel Brooks movie *the Producers*.  You
don't think that <deleted for reasons related to
Crimes Act 1914> got their ideas from Mel Brooks, do you?

*jeep!
- --Chet

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:22:12 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: 2300ad starmaps (offtopic)

>Sorry to post 2300 stuff to this group, but there isn't a better place (??).
>Does anyone know of a source of a good computer starmap that shows 3d
>representations of stars that can be rotated etc. I'm trying to set up a
>2300 Starcruiser campaign for my son (Lone Wolf) and would love to do the
>map on the PC.

The mother lode for all 3D starmap stuff is at
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:38:53 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions

Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:07:02 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>>Do you really want Traveller associated with M$. Go with Mac or better
>>still, Linux. Functional and cheap to run.
>
>And very much in the niche market - exactly what we are trying to break out
>of being, no?  ;)

Not so "niche" as press descriptions would lead you to believe.  :-)

At NASA Ames Macs out number Intel boxes (I don't know how many of those
are actually running linux...).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:33:56 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

At 01:07 AM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I wonder what her skills and UCP would be...

I'll take a stab at it.

Honor Harrington, Captain, Royal Manticoran Navy 

A88BBD   Age 47 (appears 26 due to Prolong)

Ship Tactics-4, Fleet Tactics-3, Brawling-3, Leader-3, Fixed-wing
Aircraft-3, Pistol-2, Admin-2, Engineering-1, Pilot-1, Liason-1 

Captain Harrington is also an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy, as well as
being a Steadholder.  This is considered the same as a Countess for
Manticoran purposes.  Honor has an artificial left eye.  She can link the
eye with remote sensing devices when necessary.  She has used this trick to
win a duel with the man who killed her lover.

This write up is biased towards Honor beofre the events in Honor Among
Enemies..
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:22:37 +0100
From: Richard Talbot <richardt@post.almac.co.uk>
Subject: Apologies for Phoenix Command

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------07D4B51BCA9EFADD77FAD4EF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a quick apology if the Phoenix Command message annoyed anyone.
I just sent it to every person I knew as one is getting desperate to
find it.

- --
Regards
Richard Talbot - Alloa, Scotland - http://www.almac.co.uk/richardt
Contact: richardt@post.almac.co.uk - ICQ:15535153
Join British Isles Traveller Support "Its the only way to be sure"


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:56:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 

> An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
> be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in large
> quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no? If so, they would be make
> a much safer starship fuel than antimatter. But would the mutual
> annihilation of positive and negative monopoles provide as much thrust?

A monopole is just a magnet.  You can't 'annihilate' it.

What monopoles are good for is, any application needing a magnet.  A monopole's
magnetic field is linear in strength rather than inverse square, so it'll reach
farther.  Instruments that depend on the strength of a magnetic field are
easier to calibrate.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:45:49 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell

please repost exothermic hell.

- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:29 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was elevated by Emperor
Strephon at 1104, over the objections of much of the Imperial
Nobility.  At 1116 he assasinated his patron, and started the
Rebellion that destroyed the Third Imperium.

GURPS: Traveller decided to set it's breakpoint at 1116,
where Archduke Dulinor dies while en-route to the Emperor.
There are other alternatives: I made a previous post years ago
on an alternative universe where Emperor Lucan successfully
reunites the Imperium.  Here, we will see what would be the
result if Dulinor was more successful in his drive for the throne.

1116: The Archduke has a private meeting with Strephon,
insisting that a major overhaul of the Imperial government be
accomplished.  Strephon refuses: he is perfectly aware of growing
regionalism, declining loyality to the Crown and the infighting
among the nobility, but any radical change is more likely to bring
about chaos than forge a new dawn.

He had previously narrowed his options to two: a swift
decapulation of the Imperial family, or a Quiet War to
undermine Strephon and take his place.  Both options
were fully planned out, but the actual decision was left
to instinct: when he met Strephon privately, that is when the
decision would be made.

During the actual argument in the Offical Timeline, Dulinor
sensed a certain weakness, a certain inconsistency, which
clicked with his intuition: NOW is the time to strike.
In my timeline, that certain vocal tone was missing, replaced
by a harshness that warned Dulinor that today was not the day.

The reason is, of course, Dulinor was actually arguing
with the Emperor, not an actor.  In this timeline,
Strephon wasn't called away on the Longbow project.
His actor in the Offical Timeline was trained only for
the typical Court pleasentries and rituals: all of the
real decisions would be made by the Privy Council
until the Emperor's return.  The nameless substitute
is an excellent actor, but he simply didn't have the full
command of classified information or the experience
with Dulinor's personality that he needed.  Simply
projecting confidence isn't going to fool anyone raised
from birth to rule: there has to be something behind
that confidence, and *that* was what the actor was
lacking.

In this history, Dulinor return's to Dlan/Ilelish, and
the Quiet War was set in motion.  Archduchy agent's
spread throughout the Domain of Sylea - the seat of
the Emperor's power -  looking for situations
where a few Trillion credits in the right hands would
embarrass the Emperor, while increasing the cry for Reform.
A number of deals were made with large criminal
organizations, granting them money and protection
in return for certain favours.'  Corporations with close
links with the Emperor were shown to be corrupt
(whenever this was true or not is besides the point).

More importantly, Dulinor's agents managed to spark a
major Corporate War between Instellarms, LIC and Delgado
Trading, LIC in Core sector. Despite rigourous
enforcement of the Imperial Rules of War, several
million people died (mainly in production facilities
and financial towers), hundred's of Trillion's of credits
worth of wealth vanished into the Void due to
financial data corruption and telecommuication
failure, and immense amount's of trade was disrupted,
not due to the rather limited attacks on shipping (It's
hard to get in the mood when three Trilion Credit's worth
of Naval Death is coldly watching every move you and
your opponent make...) as much as the endless transportation
disruption's, skyrocketing insurance costs, mass panics,
and capital flight.  By the end of the Delgado War (Delgado
was badly damaged, but kept it's MegaCorp designation:
Interstellarms also survived, but took 15 years to regain it's position
as a MegaCorp) Core's industrial capasity was hit hard, sparking a
regional depression.

[This fracas - running between 104-1121 to 382-1123,
 underscored several Imperial problems, including the difficulty
 Emperor Strephon had in controlling and ending the war, despite
 absolute naval and military superiority. Strephon's failure
 to end the Delago War early badly damaged his reputation, and
 indirectly led to his failure as an Emperor.  Dulinor deserves plenty
 of blame for his patently treasonous behaviour, but the dry wood
 was already there.


Strephon at least managed to keep the fire from spreading to other
 MegaCorps, and avoided a massive destruction of Imperial
 wealth and industrial power - all the while grappling with
an unseen traitor in his seniour ranks.]

Dulinor strove not to be seen as openly hostile
to  the authority of the Emperor, instead, he helped
the media make Strephon look stupid or incompetent.
Every failure that the Emperor made Dulinor made
sure was widely publicised, every challange to Strephon
recieved a little extra boost from unexpected sources.
Illegal (aka untaxed) trade activity surged - cutting
deeply into Imperial revenue - while Imperial Navy unit's
always seemed to always be a day late and a dollar short.
As life in the Domain of Sylea turned to the worse, Dulinor
made friends among the Younger Nobility, promising
to establish a new order, one that would create a truly new
world for them to shape.  The Archduke also made strenous
effort's to patch up his differences with mainline nobility,
while protraying Strephon's designated heirs as merely the
Same Old Same Old, who would merely fiddle as the Imperium
quietly disintergrated.

[Residents of the Sylean domain - the core regions of the Imperium -
have difficulity differentiating between "The Imperium" and
Domain of Sylea, for much the same reasons that newscasters
say "the world is watching" when they mean the Western World.]
Finally, Dulinor made the breakthrough's he needed.  The Archduchess
of Sol unofically allied with Dulinor at 1125, and imitated his
reforms in her own Domain.  And the Emperor made a
grevious mistake, challenging Dulinor's loyality to the Throne
at 1129 without sufficent proof.  The trial was held at Capital
at 1130-1131, and what was initally a solid-cast case became
a public relation's disaster when the Crown's case was shown to
be built on innuendo, bribed witnesses, and planted evidense by
over-enthisuastic IRIS agents and hostile high nobility.

Vindicated by the Imperial Moot and lionized by the Imperial
citizenry, Dulinor retook his place as Archduke as most
pro-Strephon nobility suffered public humiliation, with a minority
either broken in rank or stripped of their Noble Patent's.
Strephon still sat on the Throne, but he was broken as an
Emperor.  Dulinor and his allies closed in for the kill, widely
publishing Prince Lucan's foolish actions as a proxy to finish
off  the Alkhalikoi dynasty in the eyes of the public and the Nobility.

As Dulinor secured his succession to the Irridium Throne, he wound
down the Quiet War.  It was fought entirely through proxy's and allies,
so there was very little "cleanup" that needed to be done.  Most of
those who served Dulinor well got nice appointments and comfortable
pensions. By this time, the INI of Domain of Ilelish was in Dulinor's
pocket.  The result's of this war didn't dissapear quite so quickly:
a depression in the central sector's of the Imperium was in full
swing by 1133, and Dulinor got appointed to reslove the problem.

Archduke Dulinor shifted resources from the Domain of Vland (a
healthy economy, and a centre of opposition to his rule) to the
Domain of Sylea.  The same criminals that Dulinor protected when
they were useful he destroyed when they got in the way of making
Sylea hum again: most major criminal groups will not make any kind
of off-the-record deal with the Imperium after this betrayal.
The Sector & Subsector Nobility was told in no uncertain terms, by
both Strephon and Dulinor, to follow Dulinor's masterplan of reducing
revenue to the high-pop, high-tech systems and transfer them to
high-pop, mid-tech and low-tech systems.

Moreover, the megacorps were encouraged to develop and invest in
the lesser high-pop systems, but they were reluctant to do so.  So
instead Dulinor focued on Domain- and Sector-wide corporations,
granting them tax breaks and the occassional subsidy to do what he
requested.  Finally, he promoted population resettlement' of old
high-tech, mid-pop systems (many of them have had declining
populations for 300 years, like Strogy (Shiwonee:Massilia
A425347-E) ), taking pains to insure that the new populations
will fit in well with the technology requirements: this resettlement
was most heavily done in Core, but was also done in  Massilia sector.

As the depression - now contained in Core, Zarushagar, Massilia
Sector's - started to level off  at 1136, Archduke Dulinor began
his Domain Common project back in the Domain of Ilelish.
Each subsector and each sector obtained a Commons,
where the commoners elected representatives via proportional
representation.  They have a limited ability to legislate, but no
ability to control the budget for their area.  Moreover, in response
to Noble pressure, Dulinor made voting eligibility dependent on
family and property requirements; also, one-fourth of the membership
must have knighthoods at least, but at least 66% of the Common's
must be *below* noble rank.  Control of the budget, interstellar judicary,
and military still resided in the hands of the nobility.

Emperor Strephon was on a journey to meet with Archduke Norris,
the last major pro-Strephon noble left when he finally died at 52-1137.
Archduke Dulinor was proclaimed Emperor in 303-1137: immediately
afterward, Prince Lucan (now Marquis Lucan) was shot dead by
ex-Grand Princess (now Countess) Ciencia Iphegenia.


Emperor Dulinor immediately set about 1) rewarding friends with new
noble titles taken 2) from old political enemies, or people he simply
deemed untrustworthy.  Going against his advisor's, Emperor Dulinor
decided to leave Archduke Norris in place, as a gesture of forgiveness
and putting past differences behind.  Norris didn't like how
Dulinor got into power, but agreed with Dulinor's goals of reforming
the Imperial System.  Instead of a purge, Dulinor merely undermined
the most vocal and unreasonably discontent of his enemies, mainly by
turning their titles to Rank nobility from Regular (ie: inherited) titles.
As the economic recovery of the Domain of Sylea stalled, Dulinor
held a major meeting at Antares Sector at 101-1139.  The
Council of Dowa (Held at Kimamini, Urnadim:Antares A465436-E)
The Emperor, Archdukes and  certain Senior Dukes outlined the
reforms they felt would work, and proclaimed the Edit of Dowa at
their respective capitals at Holiday 1140.

__________________

The Edit of Dowa had two main portions: one deliminating
the new Imperial Common's, and the other directing the reformation
of Imperial culture.

The Nobility would retain control of interstellar legal, defence, and
foreign affairs throughout the Imperium, and their fief's and corporations
will continue to have their financial priveleges. However, most other
areas of  government - including interstellar trade regulations -  will be
turned  over to newly-formed Imperial Common's, established throughout
the Imperium at the subsector, sector, and imperium  level. (No Common's
will be established at the Domain  level).  Appropriate property and
eligibility requirements will be set, but in all cases no noble above
baronet level will be permitted to join,  proportional representation
will be the law, every system in their area of space
will be represented (worlds with lower than 99,999 people will be
represented by a noble-appointed delegate) and the Common's
will be subject to bugetary oversight by the nobility.

The Edit also provided teeth to the One Imperium policy of the new
Emperor. While the nobility has no legal basis for creating and
enforcing a unified Imperial culture on Imperial worlds, the Imperial
Common's can.  They are elected citizen's of their worlds, and can
legimately make law for their worlds to encourage Imperial standards
of culture and living. (Special regulations will be put in place for
balkenized and low-pop systems).

The Common's will be encouraged to standardize living standards and
legal systems of their worlds, first on a subsector basis, then sector, and
finally Imeprium-wide. (Nobles will be encouraged to do the same with
interstellar law: )

The Imperial Common's are expected to work in co-operation with the
local world government: the more co-operative systems will be favoured
by local nobles, who will effectively control the budget.  Systems that
refuse
legimitate orders of the Common's are open to sanction by the Imperial
government, up to and including occupation, dispersion of the inhabitants,
and/or imperium-mandated immigration.

The Emperor will be the final arbritrator of what Imperial Standards and
Imperial culture consist's of.
__________________

The current year is 1143.  The Common's have all been established,
and are struggling through their birth pangs.  Dulinor has just celebrated
his sixth year as Emperor by announcing his engagement to Duchess
Mei Chang, third daughter of Senior Duke YanChang of  Glimmerdrift
Reaches: expensive wedding preparations are swamping Capital.
The Domain of Sylea's economy quietly prospered  last year, but it will
take another decadefor Core Sector to recover to where it was at 1120:
the Imperial Core now has less financial power vis-a-vis the margins
than ever before.

Admittedly, it's still the definitely more wealthy than any two other
domain's,
but the projections are clear: Domain of Sol will be just as powerful as
Domain of Sylea by 1160.  By 1175, four sector's will be more wealthy than
Core sector. The basic problem - as is often with wealthy societies -
is a sharp fall in fertility, but there is very little Dulinor can do about
that.
The Delago War merely was the fire that burned away the illusion of
strength.
But at least the rest of the Imperium is growing well, including Dulinor's
beloved Domain of Illeish (now the fief of a trusted ally, as Dulinor has
enough problems governing the Sylean domain).

Most Imperials are fairly satisfied with their lives, but apprehensive about
all the
political changes.  The young feel as if they are in a time of revolution,
and can't think of a better time to be alive.  The older nobility continue
to grumble
about Dulinor, but remain loyal: it could have turned out a lot worse.



_______________________

Most obvious senario to play
Restore the Alkhalikoi dynasty!

 Everyone believes that Emperor Dulinor was vindicated
at the trial on Capitol, but you know better, and want to
get the word out.  The PC's will need to somehow contact the
 Alkhahikoi family.  Now nearing the end of their hard financial
times (we're talking about a LOT of debt's here, with no more
Imperial money to play with) they are finally in the financial
black, and holding on to their last inheritable title, the Marquis
of Usdiki (in Ruie:Gushmerge A6649EF-F): the few other titles
Dulinor allowed them to keep are all Rank titles, and will
dissapear as the current holders die off.  They are fully aware
that they are alive at the pleasure of the Emperor, and will NOT
rebel against him.
      Even so, there is still a deep sympathy for them in noble
circles, and even the public is becoming a little
more sympathetic than usual.  Countess Ciencia
Iphegenia Alkhalikoi, now 42 years old,  is working herself
to death at actually doing the work of governing all three
of her titles (Countess in the Solomani Rim,  Marquis at
Usdiki, and a Baron in Deneb) as Archon Varian Alkhalikoi,
49 years old, is trying to get portions of his uncle's memoirs
published, and get the word out on at least part of the real
story of the Delago War (without pissing off Dulinor).
Of the several nobles who respect the Alkhalikoi line, the most
powerful is Archduke Norris Aella Aledon of the Domain of Deneb.
His family and the Alkhalikoi line goes way back to
Emperess Arabellatra: Captain Roland Aledon was one of
Grand Admiral Alabellatra Alkhalikoi's officers in the
Civil War (604-622).  Now, however, he will not risk treason
charges to put Ciencia on the throne at this late date.  Most
of the old pro-Strephon fraction agree's with his stance.

      Even so, the unexpected could always happen.....

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:32:35 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Maximun envelope of Imperial operations

I was reading a brief article on how a lost 
Roman expedition to Central Asia ended up 
settling in China: aparently even today a particular
village has Latin features, and maintain some Roman
customs.

How far from Imperial borders can a far-ranging 
cruiser fleet expect to operate?  What is the maximun envelope
for small Imperial Naval operations?

Alvin Plummer
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 22:33:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: World Map Gif

Anybody know where I can find a GIF or JPG of the old IS Form 8 world hexmap 
blank?  I need to do some world maps & need a blank.

Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:24:29 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: re: Honor Harrington

Kurt types:
>At 12:20 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
>>>Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
>>>buy the rest of the books! :-)
>>I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new one
>>coming out next month.  
>I wonder what her skills and UCP would be...

Damn good.  The HHU has 'Prolong', and anti-aging formula.  She's got over
thirty years in the Royal Manticorian Navy and looks barely out of her
teens.  Let's see, she's a heavy worlder, so jack up the strength and
endurance.  Genengineered so she doesn't look like a heavy worlder.  Very
high brawling skill.  Expert shot with handguns (gunpowder & pulsers (gauss
weapons on steriods, they use grav tech)),  melee weapon, melee weapon
(long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., etc.

   She's the NPC you keep around to annoy the players.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #705
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 706



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Honor Harrington
RE: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
re: Honor Harrington
Re: World Map Gif 
Re: Maximum envelope of Imperial operations
Antimatter and Monopoles
Beyond Foreven and Spinward
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 
Re: Lyons Carlton
Bretange class SoL
Hello from Minnesota
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Behind the Claw
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 
Re: Behind The Claw
re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...
(slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list
Re: Newbie Questions
The Asia crisis hit's Traveller!
Re: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:48:22 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Honor Harrington

At 11:24 PM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Kurt types:
>>At 12:20 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
>>>>Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
>>>>buy the rest of the books! :-)
>>>I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new one
>>>coming out next month.  
>>I wonder what her skills and UCP would be...
>
>Damn good.  The HHU has 'Prolong', and anti-aging formula.  She's got over
>thirty years in the Royal Manticorian Navy and looks barely out of her
>teens.  Let's see, she's a heavy worlder, so jack up the strength and
>endurance.  Genengineered so she doesn't look like a heavy worlder.  Very
>high brawling skill.  Expert shot with handguns (gunpowder & pulsers (gauss
>weapons on steriods, they use grav tech)),  melee weapon, melee weapon
>(long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., etc.
>
>   She's the NPC you keep around to annoy the players.

Or to save them...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:45:55 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

On 03 August 1998 07:25, owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com] wrote:
> 
> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:29 -0400
> From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
> Subject: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
> 
<reluctant snippage of an EXCELLENT post>

I liked this a lot. A dirty-tricks type political campaign just waiting
in the wings, without the hard-to-take black war infighting (that was
what turned me off the rebellion setting - having just reached the bits
of TW2K where we were getting over THAT war, we have an even worse one
breaking out!)

I'm not sure that I can see ALL the commons, throughout the whole of the
Imperium, managing to pull together all in the same direction, or even
all at the same time. This I think is Dulinor's basic fallacy - he wants
everyone in the Imperium to be the same, ignoring the fact that many
people don't WANT to be the same - they're happy being equal but
different (this smells like flamebait - too much like South Africa's old
'separate but equal' argument - but by putting the 'equal' bit first I
mean to give that prominence)(the order of words does make a difference
- - consider the difference between a democratic socialist and a social
democrat)

I shall have to think about this more. That was just off the top of my
head. Anyway, nice one, Alvin.

regards

Andy
================================================================
smtp Email:			andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
						andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:			c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
						s=Long;i=AG;
						o=International
Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237			Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:15:55 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Honor Harrington

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> She's the NPC you keep around to annoy the players.

Or to save them...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my experience, one of the best ways to annoy the players is to have
a certain NPC consistently show up to "save them"... <g>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 01:51:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: World Map Gif 

> 
> >Anybody know where I can find a GIF or JPG of the old IS Form 8 world
> hexmap
> >blank?  I need to do some world maps & need a blank.
> >
> >Thanxx.
> >
> I can scan one in for you and e-mail it your way if you like.

Got one, guys.  Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:11:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Maximum envelope of Imperial operations

>From: "alvin plummer"
...
>How far from Imperial borders can a far-ranging 
>cruiser fleet expect to operate?  What is the maximun envelope
>for small Imperial Naval operations?

  "Arrival Vengeance" may provide a rule-of-thumb here; any ship
carrying sufficient stores and shops can manufacture most needed
parts as they go, and Traveller FTL technology relies on hydrogen
(which is pretty common :> ) so the limits on strategic mobility
are rather more like the Age of Exploration under sail than the
operational constraints of coal-powered warships.

  The real limits (short of scouting to avoid systems w/o fuel
stocks, which seems trivial for a fleet or even a single cruiser
outfitted with carried or separate auxiliaries) are likely less
technological than social - how long are the highly skilled crew
required willing to leave their civilization for, and what risk
of their loss are they and the authorities sending them willing
to incur? Of course, a lost explorer supplies little data...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:10:36 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Antimatter and Monopoles

Glenn Grant wrote :-

> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:02:01 -0400 (EDT)
> From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
> Subject: Antimatter and Monopoles
>
> A question for those of scientific bent:
>
> How much antimatter would you need to push an STL colony ship at 1G to,
> say, Alpha Centauri?
>
> In essence, I suppose I'm asking: how many kiloJoules you can get out of a
> gram of antimatter?
>
> And, if anyone knows: roughly how long might it take to produce that much
> antimatter, if you had, say, a woppin' huge accellerator powered by a big
> solar array on Mercury?
>
 Antimatter is the best 'nuclear' fuel for a nuclear thermal rocket
(fuel heated by passage through a fission, fusion or annihilation
reaction and thrown out the back), because all of the antimatter (and an
equal amount of matter) is converted to energy, as per the Einstein
equation.

So one gram of antimatter yields 1.8 X 10^14 J (annihilation with one
gram of matter) - equal to several thousand tons of TNT!

Robert Forward's short essay on antimatter is very instructive (found in
'Indistinguishable From Magic', pub. Baen Books).

Currently, it takes about sixty million joules of energy in to get one
joule's worth of antimatter out - accelerating protons and slamming them
into a target at a sizeable fraction of c ; only about one percent of
the antiprotons created can be caught in electric and magnetic fields
and confined.

Higher levels of technology (eg. gravitics) may be helpful in increasing
efficiency...

If you can get enough antimatter, then dribble it out into a spray of
liquid hydrogen (unfortunately not a canon Traveller reaction drive).

Monopoles are a different kettle of fish.
It may end up being easier to generate (or find?!) negative energy or
matter, which will aid in the creation of wormholes (time and space
travel, anyone?) than to find those!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 00:46:51 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Beyond Foreven and Spinward

Would/could some kind soul provide me with any *published* sector
data for the Far Frontiers (I through P)and Vanguard Reaches (A through
H).  I have been advised that James Kundert may be able to help with Far
Frontiers but I'm not sure how to contact him directly.

	I have the data for the FF Jungleblut ss, but am aware of at least two
other ss's from the storyline.  	

	I could develop them myself, but I don't like re-inventing the wheel,
so to speak. Any help would be very much appreciated.

	If the above is not possible, then could someone advise if data has
been produced for either of the Shiants (Astron) or Chtedrdia (Fulani)
sectors. From past discussions, these should be far enough away from
Imperial space to be able to develope as ones *own* sector of space.

	Thanks in advance for any help. Please contact me at my e-mail address
above noted if you do not want to post to the list.

	Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 04:13:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 

I said:
>> An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
>> be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in large
>> quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no? If so, they would be make
>> a much safer starship fuel than antimatter. But would the mutual
>> annihilation of positive and negative monopoles provide as much thrust?

Keven said:
>A monopole is just a magnet.  You can't 'annihilate' it.
[snip]

Er... I was referring to the theoretical subatomic particle known as a
'magnetic monopole'. They are merely a prediction based on quantum theory,
but if they do exist they will be among the most massive particles in
existence.

I seem to recall Larry Niven describing, in _Ringworld_ (or was it
_Ringworld Engineers_?), a disintegration weapon that throws together
positive and negative monopole particles, which annihilate each other.

Best,

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
           "The future is simply amnesia in reverse."
                    -- Christopher Dewdney

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 06:14:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Lyons Carlton

>From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
>Subject: Re: Starport cameo - Lyons Carlton

<stuff deleted>

>Though I rather suspect that Ian or Katts is referring to a more recent,
>and real-world incident near and undear to a Traveller's heart, I was
>struck by the similarity to the Mel Brooks movie *the Producers*.  You
>don't think that <deleted for reasons related to
>Crimes Act 1914> got their ideas from Mel Brooks, do you?
>
>*jeep!

At this point in time, I am very reluctant to discount any possibility,
however if asked I will join the Secretary and will deny all knowledge.

Oh yeah, and Lyons Carlton should have a nice letter of introduction from
the Sector Duke's aide de camp, who likes the idea as explained to him.

Can I get the full reference to the Mel Brooks movie btw ? 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:01:40 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Bretange class SoL

This design has been optimised for Bruce Macintosh's MCS, so some features 
of it might seem a little odd. However it all makes sense if you evaluate it with 
MCS. I used Rob Day's citadel armour concept and it does seem to allow 
some quite significant armour over the vitals (some areas are covered by over a 
meter and a half of crystaliron, factor 18 in MCS), without overly affecting the 
performance (this being a relative term as I tend to sacrifice acceleration for 
either hitting power or armour on my designs).

Sao Paulo, Bretange class Ship of the Line (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 50000 Td (AF Wedge Hypersonic)
 Crew: 1456/1630
 Cargo: 160 Td (6 Large Cargo Hatches, Handling: 10 x 500 ton)
 Volume: 700000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 5/25
 Cost: 87296.418 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 1736440t/1723326t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 82330
 Dimensions: 277.6m x 190.6m x 79.3m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 10
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls (Arm: 130 [1909]): Dynamic, High automation.
                             24 x FibComp (CM: 0.4 CP: 2.5).
                             Bridge (Arm: 130 [1909]).
 Communications (Arm: 100 [837]): 1 x Dir Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW).
                                  1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors (Arm: 130 [1909]): 1 x Sci PEMS (14 [50mkm] Sci, 0.2MW).
                            1 x Sci AEMS (12 [1.6mkm] Sci, 50MW).
                            4 x Sci LIDAR (15 [2mkm] Sci, 3.3MW).
 Survey/Science (Arm :130 [1909]):
 ECM (Arm: 100  [837]): 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW).
                        1 x Area. Jammer (11, 312.5MW).
                        1 x Decp. Jammer (12, 6.25MW).
                        1 x Pas. Jammer (16, 25MW).
 Signatures: Vis:0, IR:1.5 (1.5 at 195050MW, 1 at 20450MW), Act:0, Neu:2,
             Grav:2

Weaponry
 20 x Light Laser Turret (+3) 1/2-0-0-0 [4,800/7-3-2-1] (LR Arm: 100 [837])
 6 x Light Laser Bay (+3) 1/4-4-4-2 [1,400/59-59-45-23] (LR Arm: 130 [1909])
 4 x Missile Bay Auto 12/12 (Mag: 36 MFD: 500,000km Arm: 100 [837])
       w/48 Cmd DL 1d6/1 [36] 14.5G/10 500,000km
 1 x Heavy Spinal PA (+3) 2/11-11-11-11 [1,100/710-710-710-710]
     (LR Arm: 130 [1909])

Performance
 2 Jump (5000 Td/pc fuel Arm: 130 [1909])
 4/4 Maneuver (Thruster: 171500MW Arm: 130 [1909])
 1/1 Contra-grav (23128MW Arm: 130 [1909])
 3748kph/3759kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 2811kph/2819kph)
 8 Power (Fusion: 204495MW, 0.25yr Arm: 130 [1909])
 0 Battery
 10547.8 Fuel (Scoop: 5, Purif: 72, 86MW)
 0/1630/30/40/0 Accomodations (1680 x Sanitary Fittings)
 21840 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 2 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 12 Sandcasters (AV: 930 Cans: 24 Arm: 60 [339])
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 20 [93] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
 450 x Airlock
 50 x Decontamination Airlock
 4 x Docking Umbilical
 4 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 4 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 8 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (25 Td ea.)
 20 x Prisoner Capacity (0/0/20)
 1 x Armory (1.93 Td ea.)
 6 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 8 x Full Galley (Cap: 210)

Small Craft
 5 x Spacious Hanger (20 Td, 1 hatches)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 2 x Dir Radio (1,000AU). 10 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 3 x Sci PEMS (14 [50mkm] Sci). 3 x Sci AEMS (12 [1.6mkm] Sci).
          16 x Sci LIDAR (15 [2mkm] Sci).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU). 1 x Area. Jammer (11).
      1 x Decp. Jammer (12). 3 x Pas. Jammer (16).
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 8 x Helm
 1086 x Engineering
 139 x Maintenaince
 40 x Gunnery
 12 x Screens
 54 x Troops
 223 x Command
 55 x Stewards
 13 x Medical

The Bretange class first appeared in the Terran Confederation fleets near the
end of the 4th Interstellar War and were a representative example of the
Classic period Terran Ship of the Line. The class used a wedge hull (though
the use of an airframe was uncommon), utilised the citadel armour concept to
give maximum protection to vital locations and had a comparitively modest
acceleration. The main armarment was a single spinal particle accelerator
(much reduced in power from the Early period designs) backed up by laser and
missile bays with a heavy point defence laser battery. The Bretange were one
of the earliest Terran designs to abandon the 0.5 Td missile in favour of the
larger 1 Td variety. One weakness of the class was the lack of additional
armour over the life support, a feature that was responsible for the tragic
loss of the TCS Texas. The classes other major weakness was its high Infra
Red signature which made it vulnerable to targeting sensors.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 04:18:09 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: Hello from Minnesota

Just a question as the new guy on the list..

Is there ANYONE at all that plays Traveller (any incarnation) in Minnesota,
hopefully near Duluth?  I realize that we're low tech out here in the
boonies, but there's gotta be someone nearby!

Any info appreciated.

NightWo1f

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> ----------
> > As GURPS also is published in German Language, will this also happen to
> > the Traveller module? Not that I wanted only the German version, but this
> > would be the first German Traveller after, say, 10 years.
> dont know it it will, but it probably is worth asking Pegasus Press, the
> german publishers about it....
> > 
> > Perhaps this would bring it back to some minds in this country as I
> > always hear things like: 'Traveller' What's that? or 'Traveller'? Oh
> > that's a little game, isn't it?
>
> Oh how i am hoping for traveller to make a comeback in Germany. Once it was
> everywhere, now, I know about 10 people who play in the entire republic!

And half of them in the same city ... ?!?
Who's the one not on the mailing list?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:54:26 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Behind the Claw

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> yes, me. It would be a shame if this little ommission would reduce
> compability and the chance of player-spillovers into the other system, thus
> increasing sales.
>
> I think a print size as it is in the Imperial Encycopedia, maybe one
> type-size smaller, wouldnt take too much space in the book!

There would be only one problem left: If the UPPs are included there is
need for a legend so that the non-UPP-used players (i.e. the new-to-
Traveller-ones) also know what these are for. There was an full-size table
on the Alien Modules which showed every combination, but no text. This
together with the UPP list in DGP style could give a four-page folded
sheet which can be laid into the book. Perhaps there is also place for
some explaining text instead of the table, but I'm no publisher.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:00:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> Personally, I'd *LOVE* to see a seperate Reavers' Deep supplement a la 
> Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches back in the LLB days...
> 
Me too, but it had to be written by the Keiths themselves to be
authentical ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:04:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 02:46 AM 7/31/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >> 
> >> >UFP Terra Secondus
> 
> >No mention on where this world is exactly, so the old searching game starts
> >again.
> 
> I believe this world is from the original Star Trek episode "Bread and
> Circuses"

Surely. It was called 'Magna Roma' there, but the name shows the
significance of Star Trek.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:08:58 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: re: Traveller Stuff for Sale...

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Richard Hough wrote:

> >Mine...they're shipping it out Monday. <g>
> >
> >Now if I can just find a similarly shopworn copy of original Striker
> >for a price like that, I'll be a happy CT collector.
> 
> You're lucky Walt. I've been looking for a copy of Battle Riders for years;
> anyone on the TML have suggestions?
> 
I've seen some here in Germany in the shops catching dust. But I bet
they're cheaper to buy where they come from ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:41:54 +0100
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list

Greetings to the list.

I've seen one or two references to a Traveller Tech Mailing list.

Can anyone give me more info, where to join etc?

Thanks

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:46:17 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions

>Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:07:02 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>>>Do you really want Traveller associated with M$. Go with Mac or better
>>>still, Linux. Functional and cheap to run.
>>
>>And very much in the niche market - exactly what we are trying to break out
>>of being, no?  ;)
>
>Not so "niche" as press descriptions would lead you to believe.  :-)
>
>At NASA Ames Macs out number Intel boxes (I don't know how many of those
>are actually running linux...).

...And at MIT, Macs and Wintel boxes are about equal...among the
administration!  Scientists and Researchers use whatever they want to (or
whatever runs the software they want), and are most often seen with one of
each, plus a DEC Alpha and a Sun pizza box, spread about the place.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:38:36 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: The Asia crisis hit's Traveller!

Well, not really, but anyways...

There are several features of the Asian economic
crisis that I suspect would look 
interesting if transplanted into a traveller setting:

A) Hyper-expanding economies tank because of poor lending pratices
B) The cost of producing good fall's sharply
C) These tiger economies cannot afford anything from
      America, but can sell things to him
      very cheap.
D) America's economy contract's, as the
      Tiger economies were once good markets.
E) This lead's to the interesting situation of
      a high demand of cargo ships.  These
     ships are loaded to the brim at the Tigers,
     and shipped to America, where they
     are unloaded.  Then, they sail *empty*
     to the tigers to be reloaded.
F) Despite incredible demand, the cargo ship 
     lines are *withdrawing* their ships from these
     routes, as they are losing a lot of money
     (they'll go bankrupt running ships at effectively
     half capasity.)
G) As part of the previous boom, the Tigers had built
      new airport's to handle more capasity.  Now these
     are massive white elephant, which will
     take years to pay off.  More importatly, the new
     airports in Thailand and Hong Kong were
     disasters, with computer chaos, million's of
     dollars in perisible good's left rotting on the tarmac,
     and cargo scattered every which way. 
     
Let's put this in the Traveller universe 
(Regina: Spinward Marches 1110 to be exact)

America =  Efate, A646930-D
The Tigers = 
   Alell, B46789C-A; 
   Uakye, B439598-D; 
   Feri B384879-B ; 
   Regina A788899-C
                     
(Regina is  a special case.  Between 1105 and
1115 it's tech level skyrocketed from TL 10 to 13,
due to a very successful economic
deal brokered between Duke Norris [1]
and the Sector-wide corporations.  But
the economic ripple effect's of the
deal was largely "channeled" into the pockets
of the Sector corporations and the
coffer's of the subsector government, 
rather then felt off-world.  Still, such a surge
culdn't be completely suppressed...)

Now, Tech levels don't change much 
over the years, so economic surges 
like the U.S. between 1941-2000 don't
happen very often.  So instead let's assume 
a major immigration wave came into
Efate at around 1070-1100, say one 
million poor but hardworking people 
from the Imperial Core immigrated every year
at that time.

Now these poor but hardworking folk
don't stay poor for long, in this rich new land 
of opportunity.  Let's also assume that they are
fertile, and have a ton of clean, hardworking kids.

All this put's more juice in the economy,
and in the fullness of time, creates an 
economic surge in this subsector, especially 
in the Tigers.  Over time, this surge becomes 
a regional financial bubble, that bursts at 1115.  

As financial chaos hits,  the major cargo lines
start cutting their losses, and the new starports
becomes a disaster zone, the player characters
smell opportunity.  They kept their noses clean 
during the boom, avoiding the fast money
while cleaning up their debt. Now,  what's 
the best way that a small little outfit 
can make out like a bandit?



Alvin Plummer
[1] as you probably know already, Norris was 
still "only" the subsector Duke at 1115.
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 07:55:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

Andy Long wrote:
> 
> On 03 August 1998 07:25, owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
> [SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com] wrote:
> >
> > Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:29 -0400
> > From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
> > Subject: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
> >
> <reluctant snippage of an EXCELLENT post>

Agreed! Welcome back Alvin...haven't heard from you in a while!
 
> I liked this a lot. A dirty-tricks type political campaign just waiting
> in the wings, without the hard-to-take black war infighting (that was
> what turned me off the rebellion setting - having just reached the bits
> of TW2K where we were getting over THAT war, we have an even worse one
> breaking out!)
> 
> I'm not sure that I can see ALL the commons, throughout the whole of the
> Imperium, managing to pull together all in the same direction, or even
> all at the same time. This I think is Dulinor's basic fallacy - he wants
> everyone in the Imperium to be the same, ignoring the fact that many
> people don't WANT to be the same -

Yeah, I don't think that Dulinor will quite know what he's unleashed on the
Imperium...the bit about the Emperor being not only the final arbiter of
Imperial Law, but Imperial Culture, as well can turn and bite him hard. 

Dulior want the whole Imperium to be one happy country...what if those dazzled
young people 'Living in the midst of a revolution' decide to start running
around waving...oh, I don't know...maybe little red books of the collected
wisdom of Chairman, errr, _Emperor_ Dulinor?

What happens when they decide they will enforce the Emperors Will by
completing his cultural revolution? And as young idealists, the most obvious
solution is to tear down the corrupt Old Order to build the Glorious New Order.

Revolutions are really, REALLY hard things to contain, once you've started them...

Another problem...his mandate that the high-pop high-tech worlds 'share the
wealth'. The 90% of Imperial Citizenry living there might resent that the
other 10% 'are getting a free ride'. OTOH, since it will, in reality, take so
little to bring that 10% up, they may not even notice. "Oh dear, taxes went up
0.002% this year. I guess this year I have to round UP a credit on the 1040..."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #706
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 707



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Software programs?
Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...
Re: fun weapons
re: Honor Harrington
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles
RE: Honor Harrington
Status of SOpM Spreadsheet
re: Detailed system generators
[OT] Test Post
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles    
Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0
Merchant or Trade programs
Dewey, Cheetham and Howe
US Bits Distribution
Battledress, etc.
Subject: Re: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:46:15 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Software programs?

Hi again,

I've returned to ask questions that are probably on
the FAQ, if there is one...

A) I need a language generator for Windows95/DOS
     (If I remember correctly, Guatney made a very
      good one that even includes Sylean: is it still 
      available?)
B) And I need a nice world generator for Windows95
     too.  Any favourites?

Thanks,
  Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:13:35 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

I'm sure everyone understands the importance of an Imperium-wide
standard of weighs and measurements.  It seems to me to be just as
important that there be many other standards, such as for communication
protocols, connectors, etc.  Imagine landing on a high-tech world,
whipping out your hand computer to download the latest commodity price
list, and getting a "Incompatible data protocol" message.

So my questions are:
1. What is the Imperium government bureau that promulgates and enforces
such standards?
2. How standard are standards?  Would you say that the higher the tech
level, the more likely they are to follow the Imperium standards?  Or
would it be a function of how 'integrated' into the Imperium the world
is?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:55:58 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: fun weapons

>After all, the reason tanks are so *flat* is so that they can hide
>behind things. Grav tanks don't appear to use that tactic much. Or if
>they *do, then we are back to thinner top and bottom armor, and they
>wouldn't *dare* fly at any sort of altitude.
>

I picture GravTanks as ground hugging helicopter gunship like vehicles for
the simple reason that if a sensor can see them they will be hit -
guaranteed, 100% certain by a laser. No use in dodging there, you'll need
at least say 50 000 km range before any dodging will do you any good
against lasers.

All in all the lethality of lasers vs flyinng things is good I think. More
NOE and ground action which is more enjoyable for the PCs and also keep the
Canon look of ground conflicts more in line.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:45:50 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: re: Honor Harrington

At 11:24 PM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:

>(long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., 
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Honor shouldn't have high astrogations skills, she frequently complains
about how difficult she finds the task.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
"Come to Life, Iron Chef!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:42:14 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 

At 04:13 AM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I seem to recall Larry Niven describing, in _Ringworld_ (or was it
>_Ringworld Engineers_?), a disintegration weapon that throws together
>positive and negative monopole particles, which annihilate each other.

The Slaver Disintegrator.  An artifact that worked by suppressing the
charge on protons.  During the Man-Kzin Wars, those wacky Wunderlanders
built a giant model and used it on the Kzin world called Warhead..  people
called the planet Canyon after that...
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:49:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > Personally, I'd *LOVE* to see a seperate Reavers' Deep supplement a la 
> > Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches back in the LLB days...
> > 
> Me too, but it had to be written by the Keiths themselves to be
> authentical ...

This one *is*.  But you only get it if you get the *set*, and I'm not over
thrilled by the Arctic Environment as a play aid.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:01:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

>What monopoles are good for is, any application needing a magnet.  A
>monopole's magnetic field is linear in strength rather than inverse
>square, so it'll reach farther.  Instruments that depend on the strength
>of a magnetic field are easier to calibrate.
>
>Keven

Aren't they (monopoles) inverse square instead of inverse cube as normal
magnets? Also, besides SF authors, are there really any noncrackpot-, not
working at NASA advanced propulsion-physicists that believe in/have
theories about them still or have they vanished like quantum black holes?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:15:28 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Honor Harrington

On Sunday, 02 August 1998 02:21, Mark Urbin [SMTP:eclipse@ultranet.com]
wrote:
> >ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
> >Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way
to
> >buy the rest of the books! :-)
> 
> I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new
> one
> coming out next month.  

If you are like me and can't wait for the new release (titled _Echoes of
Honor_) you can read the first part of the book online at
http://www.baen.com/chapters/echoes_p.htm

As of today, there are fourteen chapters.  They seem to add chapters are
a regular rate.

- -Vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ         |   vargr1@jcn1.com 
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:17:07 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet

The Starship Operators Manual Spreadsheet is coming along nicely.  Right
now, there's one major item holding it up (well, besides the fact that
I'm working a full-time job AND building a new house).

The hold-up is in calculating a world's geosync orbit altitude.  I think
it's necessary to include this because it's my belief that most
highports will be in geosync orbit.  But calculating geosync orbit
altitude is not easy.

Fortunately, World Builder's Handbook gives me what I need to be able to
calculate it.  It requires I know the world's UWP size digit, plus its
star's type.  From this, a number of calculations to derive such things
as the world's density, mass, rotational period can be made, with much
table lookup and a few random numbers, which are ultimately used to get
the world's geosync orbit calculation.

I haven't added this to the spreadsheet yet, but at least I've satisfied
myself that I can do it.

Is it worth it?  Do you think, like I do, that most highports are at
geosync altitude?  Should I go ahead and do the work of adding this
calculation to the spreadsheet?  Perspiring minds want to know!  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:33:00 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Detailed system generators

>Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net> wrote:
>
>>I am looking for a program that generates detailed systems and allows them to
>>be printed out.
>
>Perhaps a hint at which OS you want it for would be useful....
>
>Rob Prior is working on something for the Mac at the moment.
>
>Dom

This is a me too kind of reply. I have a HyperCard stack (for the Mac) that
takes an extended UPP (with belts, GGs and stars) and it generates all
orbits, gasgiants, moons, rings for you. It also calculates orbital
periods. THis can be saved into simple text files for printing. I use it to
fill out starsystems for my players so they don't think that each
starsystem consists of a planet, maybe a gasgiant and a belt or two (and
this planet consists of a starport and a bar...)

It also calculates the number of die rolls it saved you.
Those interested may drop me a line. If anybody can do a SuperCard
conversion of it then it can be made into a PC app as well but I don't have
SuperCard.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:30:45 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Test Post

This is a test.

Blah
Blah
Blah

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:37:03 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles    

>Hope someone can help us out on this. I'm co-designing a hard-SF game
>background with former TMLers Ross Coburn, Derroch Elliot, and sundry
>others.

>How much antimatter would you need to push an STL colony ship at 1G to,
>say, Alpha Centauri?

A lot. A really, really, really large amount - well past what could be 
considered plausible hard-SF.

>In essence, I suppose I'm asking: how many kiloJoules you can get out of a
>gram of antimatter?

The amount of energy you get out of a gram of antimatter is just given by
E=mc^2; 1 gram (plus one gram of normal matter) releases (0.002kg)*(3e8m/s)^2=
2e14 joules = 200 billion kiloJoules. This sounds like a lot (OK, it is 
a lot), but rockets are inefficient at energy use - most of the energy in a 
rocket goes into its exhaust. The most efficient way to use antimatter
fuel (in some sense) is a "photon rocket" - all the energy goes into photons
rather than using any of it to heat more solid exhaust. (This is "most      
efficient" in that rather than carrying a resevoir of reaction mass it's
more efficient to just carry more antimatter and annihilate the reaction
mass instead.) However, the efficiency of this is terrible. To accelerate a 
1000-ton rocket that can accelarate for about four years at 1 G requires
33000 tons of matter/antimatter fuel. 

>And, if anyone knows: roughly how long might it take to produce that much
>antimatter, if you had, say, a woppin' huge accellerator powered by a big
>solar array on Mercury?

33000 tons of fuel is 3x10^24 joules of energy. Mercury has a surface area
of about 10^13 square meters and a solar flux of about 10 kW/m^2, so 
at 100% conversion efficiency it would about a year if you covered *all* of
mercuy with solar arrays. However, plasuible conversion efficiencies are
about 0.001 or less, in which case it would take about a thousand years
if you paved mercury. All this to power a 1000-tonne spacecraft, which isn't
much of a colony. 

Somewhat more plausible from a hard-SF standpoint is a ship that either 
accelerates with its antimatter fuel for a briefer time (to perhaps 10%
or 20% of the speed of light) and/or accelerates very slowly (0.01 G    
or less), taking a couple of decades to get to Alpha C. 
This has the added advantage of keeping you out of the relativistic regime
for speeds, so you can just use the old-fashioned rocket equation to 
calculate your (really really big) fuel requirements.

>An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
>be magnetic monopoles.
There's no particular reason why monopoles would be more efficient per
gram than antimatter. They're also effectively impossible to 
manufacture except at universe-endangering energy levels, and it's generally
thought that the largest plausible density for monopoles is one per 
10^30 cubic light years.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:42:44 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts about Milieu 0

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Seems to me, Milieu 0 should have been setup a little differently.  I
> wouldn't drop the politics.  I wouldn't even de-emphasize it, but I'd
> approach it a little differently.
>
> What I would do is contract the size of the Sylean Federation,
constrict
> the time period Milieu is going to cover, and expand the space to tell

> the story.

> I suggest Milieu 0 cover the 60 years from -30 to +30, and
> at the beginning of Milieu 0 make the Federation a compact, sub-sector

> sized, state...bigger than its neighbors, but not much bigger.

According to the data in First Survey, the Sylean Federation consists of

only 19 systems.  About 3% of Core sectors systems.
Then add in the Chanestin Kingdom's 25 systems (4%), and 32 from the
Interstellar Confederacy (~6%).  The Sylean Federation is faced with 2
larger rivals.

(I can't remember the First Survey date, but that shouldn't effect
system
allegiances should it?

But other evidence in the book indicates that the Sylean Federation may
have been much larger.

In -30, the Vilani join (although Miliue 0: Campaign
says "In Year -100, the now _much larger_ Sylean Federation again
officially contacted the Vilani homeworlds." [my emphasis, p. 48]

And the charts in the added 32 pages of Miliue 0: Campagin say that
at Year 0, the Third Imperium has a very large number of integrated
systems:
Antares: 10%: 55 systems
Core: 30%: 170 systems
Dagudashag: 10%: 56 systems
Fornast: 10%: x systems
Gushemege: 10%: 53 systems
Lishun: 10%: 60 systems
Massilia: 5%: 26 systems
Vland: 15%: 80 systems

Total: 500 systems

However, if you look at the maps of these sectors and try to keep all
these
systems together, you quickly see that the Third Imperium depicted,
though
large, is spread very thin and has many choke points or keystone sytems
that link systems in different sectors.  Consider also that these sytems
can
only
be interconnected at Jump-2 connections because Sylea and the other
members of the Sylean Federation are just reaching TL12 at Year 0.

This means at Year 0, there are about 151 systems that are part of the
Sylean Federation that are not designated as such in First Survey.

(All of this assumes that the Milieu 0 is cannonical.)

As Eris suggests, I think cutting back on this large of a Sylean
Federation
is a good idea.  And the Third Imperium's TL advantage allows the
difference to be made up by mid to late in the First Century.

As far as Eris' recommended dates: I'd push it farther in both
directions.
Say -50 to +50.

[snip Campaign Types - BTW, I especially like the Anti-Imperium agents
angle]

[several snips of descriptions of books]

> Instead of doing one big book, do three.  There is enough material and

> it allows each book to maintain a strong focus.
>
> Book One: _Cleon's Vision: Rise to Power!_
>
>   Time period -30 to 30.  This is the book for all the political,
>   economic and military maneuvers.
>
> Book Two: _Growth of the Imperium_
>
>   Time period -30 to +30.  This is the military, diplomatic and
economic
>   maneuvers that the just founded Imperium took (and had taken against

>   it) as it expanded out to control the Core Sector.
>
> Book Three: _Pushing back the Night_
>
>   Time period -30 to +30.  This is the system creation, development
and
>   exploration book we didn't get in T4.

> I think a 3 book set could adequately cover the types of campaigns we
> would want to play in M:0.  The rules within the books could be
written
> generally enough to be useful in any milieu or alternate campaign
> without skimping on the background that most people find useful.

I have to disagree about the number of books.
I think 2 would be better (and more marketable).  One that contains all
the
systems, which are interrelated IMHO and would be best in one place.
Another that contains the background information and details.

In this way, the systems book has a market greater than the Milieu
books.
They could work with any Milieu and any Traveller Universe.  Maybe its
just me and my own idiosyncracies, but I would really love to have
pocket
empires, imperial squadrons, trading, and world/system development type
information in one book.  I've been this far from de-binding PE and IS,
punching holes in the pages and reorganizing it all into one binder,
since I

use these two together so often.

Sure this might mean 2 fairly large books, bbut I'd buy em.
Put hardcovers on them and sell them for US$30-35.

Then I need a T5 book.
A fixed starship design book with enhanced starship combat.
A comprehensive equipment, vehicles and weapons book.
At Close Quarters for personal combat
An aliens book, major and minor

I'd be very happy.
I'd be even happier if these books got the fine-toothed errata comb and
non-canonical information inquisition.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Merchant or Trade programs

Greetings all. 

A long while back I recall seeing adds for a program called Merchant
Prince that was a game based on trading in CT. Does that program still
exist? I recall that is was for the Commodore and not the IBM
compatable, so if yes can it be gotten for a windows machine? If not,
do any programs like it exist?

Thanks.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:43:25 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> >the law firm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe
>
> Oh d*mn, I've joined the splurt club!!  Mt. Dew on the keyboard is not
a
> good thing!  8^D
>

You want to hear something really funny?

It is a real organization.

Dewey, Cheetham & Howe
5 John F Kennedy Street
Cambridge, Massachusetts
(617) 876-6632

I'm not sure its actually a law firm, but it is listed in the business
pages
of the Greater Boston phone book.

Maybe off line I'll give them a call.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:44:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: US Bits Distribution

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> I volunteered to Andy several months ago to distribute the 101 products
> personally, out of my home, for no charge, provided all expenses came out
> of (gross) sales.  This included taking a proof to a local printer and
> printing on 8.5 x 11 inch paper, dealing with color laminated covers, etc.
>
> I know for a fact that Jo Grant offered to (using my color printer) produce
> and distribute 101 Cargos and 101 Plots from his (then) temporary U.S.

> location.
>
> Both offers were not taken up.

I'll help get them all to the post office, as I recently failed my sanity test
and was thus give a Massachusetts Title to my car, enabling me to endanger
pedestrians and other cars at will on the paved-over blind-turn no-right-on-red
lane-optional 'streets' of Boston.  Or just keep the car in the parking lot
where it is safe.  (and no, I'm not trying to resurrect the Boston Driving
thread  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:45:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Battledress, etc.

Subject:
            Battledress, etc.
       Date:
            Sat, 01 Aug 1998 02:09:12 -0400
      From:
            Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
        To:
            traveller@MPGN.COM
 References:
            1




I'm really enjoying the discussion here concerning high-tech combat,
infantry, battle-dress or not, grav tanks, etc., etc.  It seems to me
that this is a prime topic for development into a marketable product.  I

think we need a "The Influence of Battledress on Upon History" to pinch
a title from Mahan.  Although the whole topic of Planetary combat is
really what I'm thinking of.

The Imperial Soldier's Manual: A Guide to the Weapons, Equipment and
Tactics of Planetary Combat.

Sections include:
- --The Effective Use of Battledress
- --Cavalry: Grav Tanks and Ground Craft
- --Hostile Environments: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the
Corrosive Atmosphere.  (Alternatively, Army Men Can't Jump on Low-G
Planets If They Want to Survive.
- --The Successful Boarding Party, and How to Defend Against It (A section

for the Imperial Marine).
- --Getting the Drop on your Opponent: How to Survive the Trip from Orbit
to Ground.
- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
Imperial Combat Knife.
- --Artillery:  Reading Maps Correctly is Fundamental.
- --Sophont Specific Tactics:  Why Turning Around When You See a Zhodani
Trooper In Front Of You May Save Your Life.


I'd buy it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:38:45 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:45:55 +0400
>From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
>Subject: RE: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
>On 03 August 1998 07:25, owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
>[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com] wrote:
>>
>> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:29 -0400
>> From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>> Subject: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
>>
><reluctant snippage of an EXCELLENT post>
>I'm not sure that I can see ALL the commons, throughout the whole of the
>Imperium, managing to pull together all in the same direction, or even
>all at the same time. This I think is Dulinor's basic fallacy - he wants
>everyone in the Imperium to be the same, ignoring the fact that many
>people don't WANT to be the same - they're happy being equal but
>different

The people of the Imperium want Change (as
today's politican's would insipidly put it).  But
what kind of change?  A clean up of the old nobility?
Secession from the Imperium?  The First Republic?
Is the change desired even political - are they ready for
a universal religion?  An end to the Psionic Suppressions?
A tech level burst - from TL 15 to TL 20 in 30 years?
A full-scale conquest of the Solomani Sphere and the Zhodani
Consulate?  A doubling of the Imperium's size?
Imperial Noble rule on the individual systems,
as well as in space?

Emperor Dulinor thinks that he knows what the
People want: economic equality, cultural unity,
and a greater say in the distribution of economic
resources.  He has given the population
a platform from which they can speak, and will
find out EXACTLY what they desire, soon enough.

>I shall have to think about this more. That was just off the top of my
>head. Anyway, nice one, Alvin.
>regards
>Andy

You are quite welcome.

___________________

>Andy Long wrote:
>>
>> On 03 August 1998 07:25, owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
>> [SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com] wrote:
>> >
>> > Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:27:29 -0400
>> > From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>> > Subject: Alternative Imperium: A New Dawn...
>> >
>> <reluctant snippage of an EXCELLENT post>
>Agreed! Welcome back Alvin...haven't heard from you in a while!

I'm thankful for the welcome... it been a long time.

>> I'm not sure that I can see ALL the commons, throughout the whole of the
>> Imperium, managing to pull together all in the same direction, or even
>> all at the same time. This I think is Dulinor's basic fallacy - he wants
>> everyone in the Imperium to be the same, ignoring the fact that many
>> people don't WANT to be the same -
>Yeah, I don't think that Dulinor will quite know what he's unleashed on the
>Imperium...the bit about the Emperor being not only the final arbiter of
>Imperial Law, but Imperial Culture, as well can turn and bite him hard.

Dulinor is one of those highly intense, very smart men
who suffer's from intellectual tunnel vision.  He knows
what he want's, but doesn't see the *implications*
of his actions.  He also tend's to see his plan's work
perfectly in his mind's eye, and lack's sufficent respect
for both Murphy's Law, and the Law of Unintended Consequences.

And that bit in the Edit, about "The Emperor will be the
final arbritrator of what Imperial Standards and
Imperial Culture consist's of."  All Dulinor see's
is one edge of the two-edged sword, here.  Is he
in for a Big Surprise....

(Did old Archduke Norris smile knowingly when
Dulinor signed the Edit?  It's hard to tell from
the holovid...)

>Dulior want the whole Imperium to be one happy country...what if those
dazzled
>young people 'Living in the midst of a revolution' decide to start running
>around waving...oh, I don't know...maybe little red books of the collected
>wisdom of Chairman, errr, _Emperor_ Dulinor?

Ah, the joy's of Youth!

>What happens when they decide they will enforce the Emperors Will by
>completing his cultural revolution? And as young idealists, the most
obvious
>solution is to tear down the corrupt Old Order to build the Glorious New
Order.

Most revolution's occur in two phases: the initial changeover
and the Other Side.  We've had the initial changeover...

>Revolutions are really, REALLY hard things to contain, once you've started
them...

Dulinor is going to have his hand's full, trying to control the
Imperial Commons.  Right now he thinks that they will do
the obviously right decision, and - after careful debate,
of course - follow *his* vision of what the future should be.

Just wait till Dulinor the Populist and Dulinor the Autocrat
get a good, long look at each other....

>Another problem...his mandate that the high-pop high-tech worlds 'share the
>wealth'. The 90% of Imperial Citizenry living there might resent that the
>other 10% 'are getting a free ride'. OTOH, since it will, in reality, take
so
>little to bring that 10% up, they may not even notice. "Oh dear, taxes went
up
>0.002% this year. I guess this year I have to round UP a credit on the
1040..."

Now, 90% of the population lives on high-pop systems, but
the average tech level of these high-pop worlds is 13, I think.
Assume that Dulinor is looking to bring *every system in the
Imperium* up to, say, TL 15.  Now, how is he going to do this?

(And if this is hard, imagine trying to standardize
 all system governments, in an Imperium that is used to
 complete independence at that level.)

Alvin Plummer

The most dangerous time for a government is NOT in
a war, or in the middle of civil unrest.  The most
dangerous time is in the middle of a reformation, when the Old
Order is dying but the New Constitution have not yet jelled...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #707
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 708



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested
Re: Worlds Map Gif 
World Maps Available
Imperial Justice vs. Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Maximum Envelope of Imperial Operations
re: Battledress, etc.
Re: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe
RE: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 
re: Imperial Justice vs Local Justice (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:46:57 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested

Subject:
            Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested
       Date:
            Sat, 01 Aug 1998 03:25:26 -0400
      From:
            Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
        To:
            traveller@MPGN.COM
 References:
            1






Brody Dunn wrote:

  In an attempt to waste even more time at work I am trying to code up
an
  Access database to assist in running Pocket Empire campaigns.

  While starting I have found a few ambiguities I need help with.

  My first query is related to the social standing of the ruling
family.  How
  is this determined to start with?

>From the Original Archon's UPP.  B is the minimum, so I suggest
rolling1d6 + 10, and ignoring results that are too high.

However, you have pointed out an interesting problem.  The Archon
of a Noble family running a Pocket Empire should have the maximum
Social Standing by definition.  You could view the Social Standing of
an Archon as his "Imperial Social Standing," and their Social Standing
within the Pocket Empire as Maximum, G or whatever,  which might
make sense in the Caraliata family example, but that is less than
elegant.

  As each persons social standing is related to the Archon (or head of
the
  family) minus the number of steps from the Archon, is the brother of
the
  Archon of the same Social standing as the Archons Children?

Yes.  In the real world, the Sibling would likely have a lower Soc than
the
children of the Archon, because the children will inherit and the
sibling
wont.  But PE contemplates family voting for succession.  So, for
bloodline
succession, I suggest:

(View with Fixed Width Font)

Archon Soc X
|______________________________
|                              |
Heir Soc X-1         Heir's Siblings Soc X-2

For Siblings of the Archon:


Archon with Heir:

Archon Soc X ----------------------Archon Sibling Soc X-2
|____________________                        |
|                    |                       |
Heir Soc X-1   Siblings Soc X-2    Sibling's Children Soc X-3


Archon Without Heir:

Archon Soc X ------------- Archon Sibling Soc X-1


This reflects Soc-1 for per generation within the bloodline, basically,
each step
up or down the traditional family tree reduces Soc by 1 (treating all
non-heir
siblings alike).  And it reflects -2 Soc for each step out of the line
of Succession,
(because once the Archon has an heir, the Archon's siblings are out of
the line of
succession).  Example, the Uncle of an Archon with an heir would have
the Archon's
Soc -2 because he is out of the Succession line.

Think of it as how many people have to die before a particular party can
inherit the
throne.  For the heir, only the Archon must die (1).  For siblings, the
Archon and the
heir (2).   For a child of the sibling of the Archon, the Archon, all
his children,
and the Archon's sibling must die (3).


  If my Archon has a SOC of B, his siblings should all be A.
  The Archons children will be A and the children of the Archons
Siblings
  will all be 9.  Is this correct?

Yes.

  Later, when the Archon resigns and his heir (assumed to be the eldest
  child) steps up the ex-Archon has now got a SOC of A, the ex-Archons
  siblings go to a SOC of 9 and their children go to 8.  The new Archons

  siblings stay the same and all descendents of the new Archon increase
by
  one.  Is this example correct?

Yes, though remember in PE, succession is by vote, number of
votesdetermined by rank.

  Putting it all down like this has made it easier to see.

  Any comment would be appreciated.

I think you've got it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:49:04 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Worlds Map Gif 

Subject:
            Re: World Map Gif
       Date:
            Mon, 03 Aug 1998 01:25:57 -0400
      From:
            Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
        To:
            traveller@MPGN.COM
 References:
            1





Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> Anybody know where I can find a GIF or JPG of the old IS Form 8 world
hexmap
> blank?  I need to do some world maps & need a blank.

Galactic will make a bitmap of planet.  (IIRC, you've got Galactic).
Just select a system, hit F4, "R" to read the instructions on making a
map,
then F10 to dump the map into a bitmap.  Then convert the bitmap to
whatever format you want.

If there is interest, I've got some time and could whip one up on GIF,
JPG,
or PDF format.

(Such a world hexmap would make a great addition to MM's idea for
the Faraway Sector).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:49:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: World Maps Available

Subject:
        World Maps Available
   Date:
        Mon, 03 Aug 1998 06:26:59 -0400
   From:
        Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
     To:
        traveller@MPGN.COM




Turns out I had more energy than I thought.

I've made 2 World Maps in tradtional hex format.
One is generic with just the hexes, a small legend, a line for
UWP data, and then blank lines to write your own notes on.
The other is designed for Pocket Empires use and has, in
addition to the map and the legend, has lines for most of the
data needed.  Namely, the PE version includes: the Economic
Extension: Resources, Labor, Infrastructure, Culture;
The World Character: Progression, Planning, Advancement,
Growth, Militancy, Unity, Tolerance.  And Planetary Economics:
Planetary Demand, Base Gross World Product, Finished Goods
Trade Multiplier, Total Taxation Level, Governmental Budget,
Civilian Expenses, and Military Expenses.

Each map is in a format that will easily print out on a 8.5" x 11"
paper.
Each is available in .GIF, .PDF, and .CDR (Corel Draw) format.
I can resize the GIFs for different screen sizes if desired.

If your interested in a copy (free of course), send me an email directly

stating which formats you want and if GIFs, what pixel size.

FYI:  The Largest format GIF is 37k.  The PDFs are 300k (not sure
exactly
why the great disparity).

Bloo
(stevedaniels@portcaddo.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:50:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Imperial Justice vs. Local Justice

Subject:
            Re: Imperial Justice vs Local Justice (longish)
       Date:
            Mon, 03 Aug 1998 07:51:00 -0400
      From:
            Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
        To:
            traveller@MPGN.COM
 References:
            1





dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> If the fugative makes it to another planet, the accusing world has to
ask
> for extradition.  This is pretty easy in cases covering "universal"
crimes
> like murder, but can get sticky when the offence is not considered a
> criminal act by Planet B.

I think a better and more objective standard, as well as easier for
the Imperium to enforce, is whether the offense is a crime under
Imperial law, and without reference to Planet B.  After all, Planet B
has very little interest in what happens.  The Imperium has a very
strong one because the alleged criminal fled through Imperium space,
and Planet A is asking the Imperium to use its authority to return the
accused to that planet.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:51:57 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> And
> if the primary port happens to be the highport, and you are ported at
the
> downport , you could have a great deal of trouble getting off-world!

I think that is too much of a loophole for any Imperium to tolerate.It
makes
whatever extraterritorial status Imperial starports have
completely meaningless.

But I like the rest of your "frontier justice" Imperium.  :-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:52:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Great post, Walt.  And some good law in it.  I have just some minor
criticisms, from my fresh-out-of-law-school perspective.

BTW: this topic seems to periodically reappear.
Would there be interest in a small supplement concerning
the MoJ, Imperial Courts, Noble Courts, Civil Courts,
Criminal Courts, Bounty Hunting, Repossession,
[I've always wanted to be part of a group of
players that work as interstellar repossessors], etc.
I'd love to use my legal knowledge in a fun way.


Walter Smith wrote:

> What happens when a person is murdered, and the murderer flees
> off-planet? Can the planetary gov't appeal to the Imperium for
extradition?
> But can a repressive gov't create trumped-up charges and extradite
> innocent people into their gov't's evil clutches?
>
> IMTU the "middle ground" to this is Imperial Law vs Local Law.
>
> The Imperium has created a list of offences, some of which are
> considered Les Majeste (against the crown) and some of which
> are considered common-law crimes.
>
> Les Majeste crimes are prosecutable by agents of the Imperium,
> on any world of the Imperium, whether the local government
> is investigating or not. These would include crimes such as Sedition,
> Treason, Espionage, Murder of an Agent of the Imperium, etc.,
> crimes that are specifically directed against the Imperium or
> that deliberately fly in the face of Imperial Authority. If there are
> specific moralities or agendas the Imperium feels are central to it's
> mission, crimes in these areas may be included as Les Majeste
> crimes as well - Slavery, Hijacking and Piracy come to mind.

This mirrors the Federal Jurisdiction from Causes of Action "arising
under" Federal Law.  I suggest that is should be expanded to include
crimes that, though not directly intended against the Imperium, have
a potential impact on the Imperium.  The standard would depend on
how low you want the jurisdictional hurdle to be, "any" impact or
"significant" impact.  IMHO, you can bet the Imperium will choose the
former.

> Nobles may also have rights to Imperial Justice - they may insist
> that charges against them be applied in an Imperial court, as
inflicting
> local laws and punishments on them may be construed as an
> affront to the Crown, which "owns" these nobles. Nobles might also,
> in some grey area cases, push a government to suspend local
> laws from being applied to them (such as blasphemy laws from
> a religious dictatorship), but this will depend on how influential the

> noble is and other matters of circumstance. Certain Imperial Agents
> may also claim this kind of protection, but as most of them are
> nobles anyway(ambassadors, inspectors, etc.) it would be rare for
> this to be a problem.

Immunity.  Since Nobles are very often sovereigns, under
traditionalprinciples
of Terran law, they would be immune from prosecution in
a member-world court.  I suggested in a post several months ago that
there would likely be an entirely separate court system for Nobles,
because only their superiors would have any authority of them (though
certainly they could consent to other courts volunarily).

For non-Noble Imperial Employees, some form of limited immunity is
certainly appropriate.

Note: the Imperial Military, as the very hand of the Sovereign, would
be immune from prosecution in member-world courts, and there should
be a military court.

> Common-Law Crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the Empire are
> a much greyer area. These are crimes that are usually illegal on every

> planet of the Imperium, but may not be, or the perpetrator of the
crime
> may be beyond the jurisdiction of a planet where the offense was
> committed. If the crime extends to other planets (which may have
> conflicting legal systems), the Empire may also become involved.
> The idea of the Common-Law Crimes is, in some ways, like the
> Imperial Rules of War - designed to be ambiguous enough so the
> MoJ can get involved whenever them deem it necessary.

Not strictly necessary since Article VIII of the Warrant of
Restoration(Milieu
0, pg. 84), gives the Imperium the authority to do whatever it
wants with regard to member worlds.  (This is the fine print your lawyer

should have read before you signed).

> Example One: Gile Theron runs a passenger line from his offices
> on a Law Level Zero planet. He prints off several thousand fake
> middle passage vouchers for his competitor's passenger line and
> distributes them sector-wide in an attempt to give his competitor
> a PR black eye. Gile never leaves his law level zero enclave, but
> some of his distributors have turned crown's evidence. As the crime
> extended across multiple planets, Imperial MoJ agents can arrest
> Mr. Theron.

They should be enable to arrest him even if the flyers were not
distributedon
other planets because Gile induced fraud in commerce.  Anything
that may potentially impact interstellar commerce is within the
jurisdiction
of the Imperium.

> Example Two: Maria DeSandri is accused of Blasphemy on a planet
> with a strict religous dictatorship. She has managed to escape the
> planet, and is hiding at a nearby mining colony. Her crime was
entirely
> local, and not covered under Imperial Common-Law Justice, so
> the Imperial MoJ will not act on any request from the religious
> dictatorship to punish her. If Maria is smart, she will hide in a
system
> that holds kidnapping as illegal and has no strong political links
with
> the religious dictatorship, otherwise some fanatics may show up at
> her door some night and make her disappear (which may happpen
> anyway).

Well, kidnapping would certainly be illegal in the Imperium and
bytransporting
a kidnapee in interstellar space, the kidnappers would
have committed a crime directly against the Imperium.  So it shouldn't
matter where she hides WRT kidnapping.

Due to the supremacy clause of the Warrant of Restoration in Article I
(Milieu 0, p. 83), "No interference with local law or custom is
contemplated,
except where such local law or custom is in conflict with imperial
law.",
all Imperial crimes would essentially be incorporated into the laws of
all member worlds.  Thus, piracy, slavery, etc., cannot be legal on any
member world.  I think the same applies to kidnapping and all other
Imperial crimes.

> Example Three: Jor Thanagar is accused of murder by the same
> religious dictatorship. He flees off-world, claiming the charges are
> completely fabricated so the R.D. can get him for a Blasphemy
> charge. Murder _is_ a crime covered by the Imperial Common Law,
> but since Jor managed to flee into Imperial Space his crime must
> be tried in an Imperial court.

Makes sense.

> Example Four: A Crimelord has esconced himself on a law level zero
> planet. He murders a member of a visiting starship crew. What he
> did is not illegal on the world the act was performed on, but does
> fall under Imperial Common-Law Crimes. If the other members of
> the starship crew can get the nearest MoJ office to take notice,
> they may be able to get the Crimelord arrested. They may also
> decide this is too iffy and would take too long, and decide to
> beam laser the guy's villa into slag instead. (This is the rarest
> situation for Imperial involvement. It is based on a legal opinion
> that in situations where no local law is present, the Imperium can
> treat the situation the same as it treats interstellar space. There
> would have to be no local government in a position to object,
> and an interest from the local MoJ for such an intervention
> to take place.)

How could a place with no legal government become a member of
theImperium in
the first place?  My reading of the Warrant of Restoration
says that its not possible.  Article I: "Any world may, through a
recognized
representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing,
such
world shall become a member of the Imperium, equal in ststus to all
other
members of Imperium.  Member worlds shall govern themselves as they
see proper, provided that such government does not violate Imperial
laws."

Clearly, it presumes some form of legitimate government.  If there
wasn't,
the Imperium does not need to "recognize" any representative and can
take the world for itself.  And the last line essentially requires
member
worlds, of whatever law level, to obey, and impliedly enforce, the laws
of the Imperium.

> Imperial Common-Law also covers day-to-day activities between
> planets - crimes committed while travelling on starships, or committed

> against starships, crimes committed on Imperial territory (such as
> Starport Extra-Territoriality Zones).
>
> Note that planets with high Law Levels and esoteric crimes will
> closely secure their starports - if you've just been sentenced to
> death for accidentally tearing a photograph of Our Beloved Leader,
> getting to the starport places your out of the local police
jurisdiction.

Well, they can only secure the starport within reason.  Article VII:
"Movement of material and sentients between such territories
[starports]and the
member world shall be controlled by the member world, subject
to Imperial laws governing such movement."

> Note that this system may encourage Bounty Hunting. Many planets
> may wish to "extradite" (i.e., kidnap) criminals who have escaped
> jurisdiction of local law. On some planets it may be legal to take
> someone if you are a Bounty Hunter, but once you are in Imperial
> Space (travelling from one planet to another, for example)
> the Bounty Hunter could be charged with kidnapping as a
> Common-Law Crime. Thus Bounty Hunters will be secretive and
> illegal, even though the local MoJ may turn a blind eye to their
> activities as long as they toe the line on some unwritten code.

I think it was last summer we were discussing bounty hunting.There is no
reason
bounty hunting should be illegal.  IMHO,
bounty hunters should need an Imperial license and could only
be used to hunt bounties that were legitimate under Imperial
law.  In your example, this would be for Common Law Crimes.
Certainly there are more criminals than the Imperium alone can
afford to go after, and member worlds have a very strong
and legitimate interest in pursuing criminals and prosecuting them
in any court, including Imperial court.  Especially, since an Imperial
judge, after sufficient showings that the defendant can recieve a
fair trial, could choose to _not_ assert Imperial jurisdiction, and
the member world may have its day in its own court.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:53:23 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum Envelope of Imperial Operations

alvin plummer wrote:

> I was reading a brief article on how a lost
> Roman expedition to Central Asia ended up
> settling in China: aparently even today a particular
> village has Latin features, and maintain some Roman
> customs.

There are some stories about the Masai of Africa using Roman-tactics and

a theorized lost Roman settlement in Africa.  Don't forget the Celtic
settlement in Mongolia.

> How far from Imperial borders can a far-ranging
> cruiser fleet expect to operate?  What is the maximun envelope
> for small Imperial Naval operations?

Well, with Misjump, it should be possible for the edges of the Imperium
to continually come across older 'lost' Imperium cultures, in every
direction.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:06:25 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Battledress, etc.

My thought of the day on battledress:

Although (unpowered) infantry can carry weapons (anti-tank type weapons)
that can penetrate most battledress (even if one tweaks things so that 
14.5mm rifles can't do it, RAM grenades or similar HEAP rocket warheads 
almost certainly can), such weapons are low rate-of-fire and their users
carry very little ammo for them. Remember the one-thousand-rounds-per-target
statistic quoted earlier? In a real combat situation, a person with a low ROF
anti-tank rifle (let a lone a single-shot rocket launcher) is pretty damn 
unlikely to fire off enough rounds to get a hit on a BD trooper in the time
before the trooper, with a area-effect weapon like a high ROF gauss gun or a 
fusion gun, can get  a hit on him. *Very* unlikely. In real combat, hit
probabilities are sufficiently low against human-sized targets that 
single or few-shot anit-battle-dress weapons won't help the unarmoured
infantry.

bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:08:13 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe

>Dewey, Cheetham & Howe
>5 John F Kennedy Street
>Cambridge, Massachusetts
>(617) 876-6632

The "Dewey, Cheetham and Howe" joke comes from NPR's (excellent) "Car Talk"
call-in radio show. The DC&H given above is almost certainly a branch of the
group that produces Car Talk and various Car Talk paraphenalia. 
(Take a look at www.cartalk.com if you've never heard of the show.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:32:22 -0600 
From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe

"Car Talk" got it from the Three Stooges. The Stooges also gave us
the firm of Skin and Flint Finance, I. Fleecem, President.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	bmac@astro.ucla.edu [SMTP:bmac@astro.ucla.edu]
> Sent:	Monday, August 03, 1998 12:08 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Dewey, Cheetham and Howe
> 
> 
> >Dewey, Cheetham & Howe
> >5 John F Kennedy Street
> >Cambridge, Massachusetts
> >(617) 876-6632
> 
> The "Dewey, Cheetham and Howe" joke comes from NPR's (excellent) "Car
> Talk"
> call-in radio show. The DC&H given above is almost certainly a branch
> of the
> group that produces Car Talk and various Car Talk paraphenalia. 
> (Take a look at www.cartalk.com if you've never heard of the show.)
> 
> Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:59:44 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

In a message dated 8/1/98 17:16:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
timmon@primenet.com writes:

<< Ummm...are you in the US? If so, LOM should have arrived by now, or by
 sometime next week at the latest.  >>

Sometimes I wonder if I am in the US...but I think Las Vegas NV is still
considered in the US...or at least a wholly-owned subsidiary!   :-)

Ed (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:04:54 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In a message dated 8/2/98 12:39:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< A88BBD >>

I would think Honor's DEX would be more towards a 9-A...she has fantastic
hand-eye coordination (9 more so than A I guess).

DustyLV769@aol.com

ps:  What is the working title of the new Honor Harrington novel?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:17:59 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 

>A monopole's magnetic field is linear in strength rather than inverse square,
>so it'll reach farther.  Instruments that depend on the strength of a magnetic
>field are easier to calibrate.

As I understand it a monopole's field strength is an inverse square, just
like charge or gravity. It reaches farther because all natural magnetic
fields are dipoles, north and south pairs, and consequently have an inverse
cube strength. That's why magnets stick together like crazy glue, but have
a very weak attraction when you manage to pry them apart.

I imagine monopoles would be very useful for power generation, but don't
understand why they would be "easier to calibrate", except maybe at a
distance simply because the field strength would be less. Electrical
dipoles have no unusual calibration requirements I am aware of.

I don't believe monopoles would annihilate each other or have any unusual
effects if they touched, unless one was a monopole an the other an
anti-monopole. Touching the poles of regular magnets together don't do
anything special except for the usual attraction or repulsion. I imagine
isolated monopoles would have the typical quantum properties that would
make it as likely for them to interact as other subatomic particles.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:41:48 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

At 11:49 AM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>> 
>> > Personally, I'd *LOVE* to see a seperate Reavers' Deep supplement a la 
>> > Solomani Rim or Spinward Marches back in the LLB days...
>> > 
>> Me too, but it had to be written by the Keiths themselves to be
>> authentical ...
>
>This one *is*.  But you only get it if you get the *set*, and I'm not over
thrilled by the Arctic Environment as a play aid.

Umm..no. The Reaver's Deep supplement/'extra' will come with one of the
four unpublished Keith supplements - the only 'extra' that is specifically
for the "set" is the Imperial Calendar containing the best of Bill Keith's
Trav. artwork.

L8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:41:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Imperial Justice vs Local Justice (long)

btw: I haven't read Mileu 0, so had no info on the legalese presented
in that supplement. I'll have to take it (as reported by Steve)
into consideration.

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<compliments snipped before I start getting a swelled head. <g>  >>

<re Common-Law Crimes being grey areas:>

Not strictly necessary since Article VIII of the Warrant of
Restoration(Milieu
0, pg. 84), gives the Imperium the authority to do whatever it
wants with regard to member worlds.  (This is the fine print your lawyer
should have read before you signed).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, the similarity to the Imperial Rules of War. The Imperium can
step in and squash a local conflict any time it wants to, but has neither
the resources or the interest in doing so - thus it lets member worlds
have wars, as long as obey the Rules. The Imperial MoJ can (technically)
walk up to any non-noble suspected criminal on any world and cart them
off to jail - do they want to bother? The vague nature of Imperial
Common-Law crimes allows local MoJ agents to place the
jurisdiction line wherever is best for the interests of the Imperium.
Remember, the Imperium is not entirely a nation of laws - it is 
mostly a nation of men.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Example One: Gile Theron runs a passenger line from his offices
> on a Law Level Zero planet. He prints off several thousand fake
> middle passage vouchers for his competitor's passenger line and
> distributes them sector-wide in an attempt to give his competitor
> a PR black eye. Gile never leaves his law level zero enclave, but
> some of his distributors have turned crown's evidence. As the crime
> extended across multiple planets, Imperial MoJ agents can arrest
> Mr. Theron.

They should be enable to arrest him even if the flyers were not
distributed on other planets because Gile induced fraud in commerce. 
Anything that may potentially impact interstellar commerce is within
the jurisdiction of the Imperium.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not until the fraud impacted interstellar commerce. If the illustrious
Mr. Theron had conspired to defraud patrons of a local bus company,
it would have been up to the local authorities to track him down...
and on a law-level 0 planet, they may have no interest in arresting him.

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Example Two: Maria DeSandri is accused of Blasphemy on a planet
> with a strict religous dictatorship. She has managed to escape the
> planet, and is hiding at a nearby mining colony. Her crime was entirely
> local, and not covered under Imperial Common-Law Justice, so
> the Imperial MoJ will not act on any request from the religious
> dictatorship to punish her. If Maria is smart, she will hide in a system
> that holds kidnapping as illegal and has no strong political links with
> the religious dictatorship, otherwise some fanatics may show up at
> her door some night and make her disappear (which may happpen
> anyway).

Well, kidnapping would certainly be illegal in the Imperium and
bytransporting a kidnapee in interstellar space, the kidnappers would
have committed a crime directly against the Imperium.  So it shouldn't
matter where she hides WRT kidnapping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It will matter quite a bit. If a bounty hunter is carrying her out of her
hotel room while she screams "Help! I'm being kidnapped!", she'll
want the local police to have a policy of rescueing off-worlders who
are in that kind of trouble. And if the Religious Dictatorship is about
to buy line of megafreighters from the world, it's government might
be able to pressure the government harboring this fugitive to look
the other way while another blasphemer is brought to justice.

Remember that the Imperium, at least on the frontier, is spread far
and wide when it comes to resources. If all twelve MoJ agents in
this subsector are busy tracking down a 200 kidnappings a week
slaving ring, they may not have time to investigate when a citizen from
one backwater world goes a-missing on another backwater world.
If it suits the Imperium, or is too big to ignore, they clamp down on
it hard.

<snip discussion about crime lords on law level zero hives of
scum and villainy>

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How could a place with no legal government become a member of
the Imperium in the first place?  My reading of the Warrant of Restoration
says that its not possible.  Article I: "Any world may, through a
recognized representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, and in so 
doing, such world shall become a member of the Imperium, equal in 
ststus to all other members of Imperium.  Member worlds shall govern 
themselves as they see proper, provided that such government does not 
violate Imperial laws."

Clearly, it presumes some form of legitimate government.  If there
wasn't, the Imperium does not need to "recognize" any representative 
and can take the world for itself.  And the last line essentially requires
member worlds, of whatever law level, to obey, and impliedly enforce, 
the laws of the Imperium.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would say that a bunch of miners on an otherwise uninhabited rock
could very well be a law level zero population, which would have no
government of it's own - and would be considered Imperial territory,
just like a starport or a starship in space. In such a situation, nothing
would necessarily be illegal in the eyes of the fringe-living inhabitants
of the rock (excepting their "Belters Code", "Fringers Code", or
whatever). This would change when an Imperial representative (Patrol
Cruiser, Agent, etc.) was present, say in response to a report of 
something big enough to warrant Imperial interest. Imperial Marines
or MoJ agents (or both) would lay down the Law for as long as deemed
necessary, take whatever steps were necessary, then leave...until
something happened again. Enough happenings, the Miners might
get a government forced on them - in which case many of them might
just hop their Seekers and leave.

IMTU there are plenty of worlds too small, new or disorganized to have
a government the Imperium deals with directly. The Imperium simply
lays claim to these worlds in much the same way it lays claim to the
space between them. "Squatters" (who may have been there for
generations) are often ignored, though they may be deported or simply
outnumbered by a group of Imperial-sanctioned colonists. If there are
six people living on a world, they're not going to have a governor
and police force assigned to them - they'll be lucky to ever see
an Imperial ship, unless the system has something the Imperium
wants...and in that case, they'll probably see their planet 
Eminent Domained away from them anyway.

(Adventure Seed: Pick a planet inhabited by a small group (1000?)
of people who know the planet well and simply want to be left alone.
Add in an Imperial colonization project that didn't think the thousand
people already there had enough claim to the planet to bother with,
or one that used legalese to force colonists on the original inhabitants.
These colonists will be Botany Bay style ex-convict transportees,
retired military men getting land in lieue of pension, probably some
researchers and one or two idealist "conquer a new world" types.
Add in a Survey that was performed in the long easy season, that
didn't talk to the original inhabitants and made assumptions based
on their low-tech lifestyle. A colony is founded, done on the cheap
due to the plentiful food supplies and balmy weather. 

The original inhabitants fade into the wilderness, and wait for the
Storm Season to come...

Put the PC's on either end of this problem. Maybe even have them
a Scout team doing the follow-up survey, when they realize that
the bungling of the pre-colonization survey is going to get thousands
of people killed.)

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Note that planets with high Law Levels and esoteric crimes will
> closely secure their starports - if you've just been sentenced to
> death for accidentally tearing a photograph of Our Beloved Leader,
> getting to the starport places your out of the local police
jurisdiction.

Well, they can only secure the starport within reason.  Article VII:
"Movement of material and sentients between such territories
[starports]and the
member world shall be controlled by the member world, subject
to Imperial laws governing such movement."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Unless the offender has some claim on Imperial Immunity (he is
a Noble, Imperial Agent, etc), the Imperium can't stop the local
police from arresting a local citizen - even if he is five feet away
from the Starport gate.

I wonder, though - an Imperial Marine on guard duty sees someone
getting grabbed by the evil local Secret Police. Officially he can do
nothing - what happens to this Marine if he hears a desperate cry
for help, grabs the prisoner and drags him across the line?

"Sir! The Citizen was being attacked, and I rendered assistance
as per instructions regarding lending assistance to the citizenry, Sir!
The street was noisy, I did not hear the attackers identify themselves
as Police Inspectors, Sir! Sir, by the time they regained conciousness,
the citizen had fled into the Starport, Sir!"   <g>

Steve again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think it was last summer we were discussing bounty hunting.There is 
no reason bounty hunting should be illegal.  IMHO,
bounty hunters should need an Imperial license and could only
be used to hunt bounties that were legitimate under Imperial
law.  In your example, this would be for Common Law Crimes.
Certainly there are more criminals than the Imperium alone can
afford to go after, and member worlds have a very strong
and legitimate interest in pursuing criminals and prosecuting them
in any court, including Imperial court.  Especially, since an Imperial
judge, after sufficient showings that the defendant can recieve a
fair trial, could choose to _not_ assert Imperial jurisdiction, and
the member world may have its day in its own court.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The "illegal" Bounty Hunters would be those who went after
criminals the Imperium had no interest in - especially those who
an Imperial Judge would *not* send back to the planet of jurisdiction.
Thus these B.H.'s would have to engage in Kidnapping and perhaps
Slavery (selling a sentient for money?) to collect these illegal bounties.

"Legal" Bounty Hunters might be citizens with the same standing as
freelance Repo Men from the excellent JoTAS article (name and issue
escapes me) - Private Citizens who may detain a criminal and turn
them over to the nearest available Peace Officer. 

Remember, modern-day Bounty Hunters have no police powers.
They go after bail-jumpers: they can only chase these people like they
do because the contract signed by the suspect with the Bail Bondsman
said, "if you jump bail I can send people to come get you who can
do this and this and this". They dress like police special agents and
carry shiny badges so unobservant and timid people will give them the
same leeway we give to real Cops (like answering their questions
and not calling the real Police when we see the B.H.'s breaking into
someone's house). 

I see the Third Imperium having an official stance that Bounty Hunters,
at least as specially licensed and empowered agents, are not necessary,
as the Imperium can take care of it's own problems beyond what is
expected of a common citizen. Local Imperial representatives may
have a different opinion, and be willing to turn a blind eye to private
citizens who are properly getting the job done - as long as the rep can
deny everything and keep it all nicely "unofficial".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #708
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 709



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...
Re: Imperial Justice vs. Local Justice
Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet
The Producers
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 
Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet
Re: Worlds Map Gif 
Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...
Battledress, etc.
Honor Harrington
Re: Calling David Nilsen
Game
Re: Worlds Map Gif 
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Worlds Map Gif
Re: Game 
What ever happened to...?
Re: What ever happened to...?
Imperial envelope, Imperial justice...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:18:01 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>1. What is the Imperium government bureau that promulgates and enforces
>such standards?

This sounds right up the Office of Calendar Compliance's alley.

>2. How standard are standards?  Would you say that the higher the tech
>level, the more likely they are to follow the Imperium standards?  Or
>would it be a function of how 'integrated' into the Imperium the world
>is?

Considering the multiplicy of incompatible "standards" on current day
Earth, which has only a single machine-building species with a very recent
technology base dominated by a few industries with a large amount of shared
engineering and instantaneous communication able to ship to any customer
cheaply, I would imagine the Imperium, which has none of these features,
would have a standards problem we couldn't even begin to imagine.

I don't even think it's *possible* to have a single standard for anything
in the entire Imperium, no matter how "integrated" the world is. What
single, for example, standard communication system could work equally well
on a TL 5 water world, TL 15 vacuum world, and TL 10 droyne world ruled by
a religious dictatorship? This is ignoring the problem of incompatible
technologies, like electronic vs. photonic vs. mechanical vs. chemical. vs.
gravitic vs. nuclear vs. psionic vs. what-have-you power systems.

Sure, it's possible to say everyone uses totally self-contained sealed
power (or whatever) units shipped from a single planet everywhere in the
Imperium, ridiculously over-engineered to work in any environment, but I
wouldn't run MTU this way.

First, it's unlikely for such an over-engineered device shipped hundreds of
parsecs from a monopoly supplier to be cost effective with locally-produced
technology. I also think most worlds would want to market their own
technology and not be dependant on outside suppliers. Many worlds may not
even *allow* their equipment to be interopable, to protect their interests
or lock out competitors.

Second, I think declaring that all worlds' equipment is interchangeable
harms the background. Having each world with different standards and
capabilities gives a reason for the Imperium to want them all, and a reason
for players to travel from world to world. Doing this also makes individual
planets seem more distinctive and gives technical-type characters something
to do. Saying you can get a replacement sensor focal array, for example,
off the shelf at any planet removes a lot of dramatic potential from the
game.

IMHO canon supports this. Why would planets be shipping manufactured
equipment back and forth if everyone produced the same stuff? Obviously,
there must be differences between goods produced or there would be no
significant interstellar trade. IMTU, this is one reason why most starship
computer programs are so expensive, they require significant customization.

This doesn't have to be a playability problem either. If you want to gloss
over such details just say all the  equipment your players buy has been
produced on one planet. For more detail, just say all (for example)
equipment produced on a single planet is interoperable, but equipment from
different planets requires an Engineering task to be connected. For high
detail you can tell your players they can either buy a complete new
TransStellar jump drive in Glisten, or travel to Regina to get a
replacement Magna Engineering eludium P366783 jump coil modulator. You only
need to use whatever amount of detail is appropriate.

I'm not saying there won't be standards, just that they should be system-
or technology-specific, and that every planet in the 3I won't be the same.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:31:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice vs. Local Justice

Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> > If the fugative makes it to another planet, the accusing world has to
> ask
> > for extradition.  This is pretty easy in cases covering "universal"
> crimes
> > like murder, but can get sticky when the offence is not considered a
> > criminal act by Planet B.
> 
> I think a better and more objective standard, as well as easier for
> the Imperium to enforce, is whether the offense is a crime under
> Imperial law, and without reference to Planet B.  After all, Planet B
> has very little interest in what happens.  The Imperium has a very
> strong one because the alleged criminal fled through Imperium space,
> and Planet A is asking the Imperium to use its authority to return the
> accused to that planet.

actually, Planet B may have any number of reasons for denying
extradition:

1) The fugitive is an influential citizen of Planet B

2) The fugitive is a citizen influential or not, depending on how
citizens are treated there.

3) Planet A does something that Planet B does not approve of. (The US
has been denied extradition of criminals from Canada because the US
jusrisdiction requesting extradition is likely to seek the death
penalty, which canada officially disapproves of.

4) Planet B may try the fugitive under their own laws, and tell planet A
that 'The criminal's being appropriately punished, he/she had a fair
trial,  possesion is 9/10ths, and we possess him/her.' This may often
happen after case 3, above.

5) The fugtive has gained some sort of protected refugee status on
Planet B.

The Imperium had zero interest in the matter save during the time the
fugitive is actually under direct Imperial jurisdiction. If the IMOJ
claims its jurisdiction encompasses the ground of Planet B, that pretty
much nullifies the concept of 'The Imperium rules the space between the
planets.' and planet B's nominal soverignity is pretty severly
compromised.

I suspect that the Imperium maintains an impartial 'Worlds Courts' where
representatives may go to argue their respective cases in matters such
as these, territorial disputes, etc....I'm unsure of exactly how much
authority they would have unless all parties are signatory to some sort
of binding agreement to abide by the decisions of the Court.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:48:02 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet

>Is it worth it?  Do you think, like I do, that most highports are at
>geosync altitude?  Should I go ahead and do the work of adding this
>calculation to the spreadsheet?

Why should highports be at geosync altitude? Geosync orbit has a small
advantage for communications satellites, but I imagine a starport could
contact a satellite any time it wanted to. Geosync orbit has no significant
advantage for ships that can maneuver at multiple gees, and may be at an
inconvenient distance for shuttles or planetary craft. I can imagine
planets that have geosync orbit inside the atmosphere, in a ring system, or
with a companion planet that makes geosynch orbit unstable.

I don't see any reason why a highport should be at geosync altitude.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:48:48 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: The Producers

"Can I get the full reference to the Mel Brooks movie btw ?" asks Good
Ol' Ian Whitchurch.

Easily done, sez Chet.  From Lenny Maltin's TV & Videos book:

"Producers, The (1968)  C(olor) 88m(inutes).  ***1/2 (out of four stars) 
D(irector): Mel Brooks.  (stars) Zero Mostel, Gene Wilder, Kenneth Mars,
Dick Shawn, Lee Meredith (others)  Classic piece of insanity stars
incomparable Mostel as hard-luck Broadway producer Max Bialystock, who
cons meet accountant Wilder into helping him with outrageous scheme:
selling 25,000% of a play that's certain to flop, then heading to Rio
with the excess cash.  One of those rare films that gets funnier with
each viewing, highlighted by legendary 'Springtime for Hitler' production
number.  Brooks' first feature earned him an Oscar for his screenplay. 
Listen for his voice dubbed into 'Springtime for Hitler.' " (available on
video)

Not only a classic plot, but one which I'd bet has been used by games
distributors or publishers in the past.  (Certainly it was used by at
least one comic book publisher in the 1930s!)  And a teriffic plot to use
in a game setting.  I tormented players in several different games when
it became apparent the players (and their characters) were blind with
greed.

*jeep!
- --Chet

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:59:39 EDT
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection

Paul,

Count me in for a full set (even though I've already got Rogues in Space) -
I'll have a cheque or whatever off to you by the end of the week.

Fill me in, how easy was it to get permission to publish? The Dagudashaag
Encyclopedia is almost finished (about 1,500 entries not including the illos.)
fully detailing the Sector in 1115... I'm trying to figure out the easiest way
to distribute it without leaving me bankrupt --- The alien data and port of
calls will follow later...

Good luck and I'll speak to you soon,

Jae Campbell

Personal (Jaieras@Aol.Com)
Traveller (SignalGK@Aol.Com)

Ciao..

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:01:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

> >This one *is*.  But you only get it if you get the *set*, and I'm not over
> thrilled by the Arctic Environment as a play aid.
> 
> Umm..no. The Reaver's Deep supplement/'extra' will come with one of the
> four unpublished Keith supplements - the only 'extra' that is specifically
> for the "set" is the Imperial Calendar containing the best of Bill Keith's
> Trav. artwork.

Which one?  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:14:52 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet

>Is it worth it?  Do you think, like I do, that most highports are at
>geosync altitude?  Should I go ahead and do the work of adding this
>calculation to the spreadsheet?  Perspiring minds want to know!  :o)

There are, as usual, two possibilities;

1). that the highport is in geosynchronous orbit

2). that it is not.

The likelihood is that, some are and some are not.  It depends on the needs
and desires of the individual planet.

You can rationalize the decision to place all highports at the geosynch
orbit, you could rationalize the opposite, and in either case there would
be exceptions.

If the port is *not* at geosynch, where is it?

1. Lagrange point?  That's awfully far away, but it is usually outside the
100 diameter limit in the system, therefore a place where ships juming in
can reach quickly.

2. A non-geosynch orbit?  Not a "forced" orbit, but maybe a lower or higher
orbit than geosynch.  Perhaps there is a satellite that needs to be
avoided, or debris or radiation belts around the planet, or satellite
traffic, that prevent use of geosynch, or perhaps there is some other
reason.

3. Some other location?  Why not put the highport in a parallel orbit
around the same star but a bit further out.  Again, this could put the
highport outside the 100 diameter limt, but closer to the planet than the
LaGrange.

Geosynch is a safe bet, I say go for it, and if someone else doesn't like
it, they can alter to suit themselves.

Besides, you need the mental excercise!

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:34:15 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Worlds Map Gif 

> > Anybody know where I can find a GIF or JPG of the old IS Form 8 world
> hexmap
> > blank?  I need to do some world maps & need a blank.
> 
> Galactic will make a bitmap of planet.  (IIRC, you've got Galactic).
> Just select a system, hit F4, "R" to read the instructions on making a
> map,
> then F10 to dump the map into a bitmap.  Then convert the bitmap to
> whatever format you want.

Great.  Now I get to convert my Trav Tools format data to Galactic.  <sigh>  
And reinstall Galactic.  *AND* figger out how to get Galactic to read the 
custom stuff.  <sigh>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:59:35 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>>2. How standard are standards?  Would you say that the higher the tech
>>level, the more likely they are to follow the Imperium standards?  Or
>>would it be a function of how 'integrated' into the Imperium the world
>>is?
>
>Considering the multiplicy of incompatible "standards" on current day
>Earth, which has only a single machine-building species with a very recent
>technology base dominated by a few industries with a large amount of shared
>engineering and instantaneous communication able to ship to any customer
>cheaply, I would imagine the Imperium, which has none of these features,
>would have a standards problem we couldn't even begin to imagine.
>
In the Man-Kzin wars of Larry Niven's Known Space, Kzinti war fleets are
constructed at a technology significantly _below_ what the Patriarchy is
capable of. This is because the war fleets are built to the disseminated
standard so that any ship form the core regions can be repaired by any
frontier base when fighting aliens beyond the border and so that each fleet
can swap spares and technicians between units and even between fleets. A
brisk black market exists in illegal modifications to bring line units up
to their potential performance. A captain may loan his admiral the talents
of a exceptionally clever engineer to upgrade the admiral's personal
fighter in exchange for extra supplies, the honour of leading an attack, or
a promise of status.

Has anyone every considered the horrendous logistical problems those
sprawling, mixed-tech Imperial fleets must have? Forget standardization
between 11,000 worlds. Mixed standards within the fleets (obvious from the
varying tech levels) would render them effectively impotent in any extended
campaign.


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:24:33 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Battledress, etc.

 This is very simular to a wish list I've been scratching out on my Palm:

Military book w/ sections on
	Navy
	Marines
	Army
	Scouts
    contains
	rank insignia, uniform templates, squad examples, boarding, raiding	
	traditions, lore, "Rule .303" stuff, heiarchy examples, 
	sample units:
		Naval Intelligence
		Army Engineers
		Army MP
		Fleet Marine Unit

	Weapon listings, standards for various Tech Levels.


Bloo writes:
>
>
>The Imperial Soldier's Manual: A Guide to the Weapons, Equipment and
>Tactics of Planetary Combat.
>
>
>Sections include:
>- --The Effective Use of Battledress
>- --Cavalry: Grav Tanks and Ground Craft
>- --Hostile Environments: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the
>Corrosive Atmosphere.  (Alternatively, Army Men Can't Jump on Low-G
>Planets If They Want to Survive.
>- --The Successful Boarding Party, and How to Defend Against It (A section
>
>
>for the Imperial Marine).
>- --Getting the Drop on your Opponent: How to Survive the Trip from Orbit
>to Ground.
>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
>Imperial Combat Knife.
>- --Artillery:  Reading Maps Correctly is Fundamental.
>- --Sophont Specific Tactics:  Why Turning Around When You See a Zhodani
>Trooper In Front Of You May Save Your Life.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:17:34 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Honor Harrington

>At 11:24 PM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>(long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., 
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Honor shouldn't have high astrogations skills, she frequently complains
>about how difficult she finds the task.
    I agree.   She complains about astrogation, but can pull fast and dirty
calculations out of her head quickly (like when she smashed a Hyper capable
pinnace's tail with her wedge (on purpose) heading out of orbit). 

    We all forgot Pilot (Fixed Wing).  She held the Academy Sailplane
endurance record, and flies obsolete jet fixed wing fighter aircraft for
fun and relaxation.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:40:12 -0700
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: Calling David Nilsen

Kim and All,

If anyone does find him, could you let me know also.  I'd like to get
in touch with him since I lost track of him when GDW closed its doors.

Thanks,
Kristian

Kim White wrote:
> 
> Is David Nilsen (he wrote articles for GDW's Challenge magazine years ago)
> anywhere out there? Or anyone in contact with him? Please e-mail me at
> witepapr@access.net.au
> thanks,
> Kim White, Australia

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:39:11 EDT
From: Gr1zzly1@aol.com
Subject: Game

I am looking for a trav game in the north shore of mass. I am kind of rusty
and havn't played in years. 

Brad Goudey
Gr1zzly1@aol.com
Swampscott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:50:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Worlds Map Gif 

> Galactic will make a bitmap of planet.  (IIRC, you've got Galactic).
> Just select a system, hit F4, "R" to read the instructions on making a
> map, then F10 to dump the map into a bitmap.  Then convert the bitmap to
> whatever format you want.

I just flicked over to Win95 to check that out.  Interesting.  I was thinking
Gal would automap a planet for me.  It didn't.  However, it didn't take long to
quick-hack the basic map from a spare UPW.  Then I cleaned up the BMP & added
some stuff to it with xpaint & saved it all off as a .gif.

GAWD I love Linux!!!!!!!!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 18:09:27 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

On 08/03/98 at 06:17 PM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> said:

>>At 11:24 PM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>(long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., 
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Honor shouldn't have high astrogations skills, she frequently complains
>>about how difficult she finds the task.

>    I agree.   She complains about astrogation, but can pull fast and
>dirty calculations out of her head quickly (like when she smashed a
>Hyper capable pinnace's tail with her wedge (on purpose) heading out
>of orbit). 

Honor has a mental block when it comes to mathematics that started
back at the Academy, or before.  I've always wondered if her "problem"
with Lord Pavel had something to do with making her phobia worse,
psychologically.  Anyway, she can do the calculations quickly and
accurately, subconsciously, but blocks when she has to consciously
think about it. 

Of course, *I* don't think that smashing the tail of that pinnace was
really mathematics.  I think Honor has a gift for spacial
relationships, she just instinctively *knows*, but has trouble
expressing what she knows in the mathematical terms.  She knew exactly
how to sideswipe that ship with her wedge and not thinking about it
she just ordered the course. 

You need an RPG system that handles gifts and faults to really handle
Honor's math phobia.

>    We all forgot Pilot (Fixed Wing).  She held the Academy Sailplane
>endurance record, and flies obsolete jet fixed wing fighter aircraft
>for fun and relaxation.

Again, that's her gift for spacial relationships.  She doesn't have to
"work it out", her subconscious is connected directly to her
dexterity.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 01:13:16 +0200
From: Deligiannidis Nikolaos <nikolaos.deligiannidis@stud.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Worlds Map Gif

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Galactic will make a bitmap of planet.  (IIRC, you've got Galactic).

Could anyone send  me the URL, where I could find Galactic, or order
it!!!

Thanks

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:11:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Game 

> I am looking for a trav game in the north shore of mass. I am kind of rusty
> and havn't played in years. 

I've still got an openning or 3 in my upcoming PBEM, starting this week 
sometime.  I'm assuming you are reasonably familiar with Classic Traveller?

Prob is, you'll need a hotmail.com or yahoo.com address since AOL has problems 
with my configuration...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:13:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: What ever happened to...?

Does anyon know whatever happened to the "exposure to hyperspace story" that
made it onto the TNS reports of 1112-1113? I vaguely remember that it was
implied that there was some hush-hush top secret research into post Jump 6
technology. I asume that this line of Canon was quietly dropped when TNS
skipped to 1116 and the assasination and rebellion. If anyone knows, please
post it, as I'm curious.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:32:49 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: What ever happened to...?

>Does anyon know whatever happened to the "exposure to hyperspace story" that
>made it onto the TNS reports of 1112-1113? I vaguely remember that it was
>implied that there was some hush-hush top secret research into post Jump 6
>technology. I asume that this line of Canon was quietly dropped when TNS
>skipped to 1116 and the assasination and rebellion. If anyone knows, please
>post it, as I'm curious.

Marcus Rowland had an interesting article in Challenge 33 called
_Project_Farstar_. It outlined the history of jump drive research, outlined
the various directions of current research (1100+), and presented three
adventures dealing with prototype drives. It also gave reasons why post
Jump 6 technology wan't feasible -- in-game: the navy and megacorps don't
want any else to match them in range - out-of-game: post Jump 6 tech would
destroy game balance and wreck Traveller beyond recognition or repair, a
priviledge GDW reserved for itself at the time ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:26:55 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Imperial envelope, Imperial justice...

Just a few quick comment's...


>Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:11:05 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Maximum envelope of Imperial operations
>>From: "alvin plummer"

<snip>

>>How far from Imperial borders can a far-ranging 
>>cruiser fleet expect to operate?  What is the maximun envelope
>>for small Imperial Naval operations?
>  "Arrival Vengeance" may provide a rule-of-thumb here; any ship
>carrying sufficient stores and shops can manufacture most needed
>parts as they go, and Traveller FTL technology relies on hydrogen
>(which is pretty common :> ) so the limits on strategic mobility
>are rather more like the Age of Exploration under sail than the
>operational constraints of coal-powered warships.

Hmm. Let's make our exploration fleet a small 
IISS Jump-3 military/exploration fleet, organized 
by a subsector Duke in the Marches.  A large flotilla
of small ships, perhaps 50, with 2 old 20,000 disp 
modified cruisers, scout tenders, 400-ton Donoslev (sp?) 
exploration ships, 200-ton lab ship's, a few scout couriers to 
keep some timely communciation links, and a pile of 
standard Type-S scout's.  Maybe 1.3 TCr, with .7TCr 
going to the crusers

>  The real limits (short of scouting to avoid systems w/o fuel
>stocks, which seems trivial for a fleet or even a single cruiser
>outfitted with carried or separate auxiliaries) are likely less
>technological than social - how long are the highly skilled crew
>required willing to leave their civilization for, and what risk
>of their loss are they and the authorities sending them willing
>to incur? Of course, a lost explorer supplies little data...
>        Steven Hudson

This is just a "go as far into uncontested space as you
can, scout out these four subsectors for a year each, then
come back home" kind of mission.  In effect, a kind of 
trade/scientific/diplomatic mission - the kind's Captain Cook 
would have loved.  

The typical IISS crew is willing to spend only a year's journey
past Imperial borders, 3 month's on-site, then a year back.

Assume that the average jump cycle for this crew 
is 77% of the time in jump space, 23% of the journey 
time refuelling, repairing, negotiating with the local 
authorities, etc. (Say a week in jumpspace, 
2 days in realspace) That work's out to 40 actual jump's 
a year, so make it 80 parsec's for a jump-2 ship.

This implies most information less important 
than headline news travel's at something like
1.5 parsec's a week, outside of the Imperium,
(or similar interstellar government) compared
to 4 parsec's a week within the Imperium 
(love those x-boat networks!).

For a military expedition (find the problem, kill it, go home),
Jump-4 is the standard.  They also spend less time 
talking to people, have fewer diplomatic hassles, 
and military-grade information and map's.  Let's
guess that the jump cycle here is 7 days jumpspace,
12 hours realspace = 93% jump, 7% real.  That work's 
out to 48 jumps in a year, or 192 parsec's out.

(For comparison purposes: a sector is 40
parsec's long, 32 parsec's wide)

My jump-3 exploration flotilla is composed of lifer 
IISS Scout's, say.  [Yes, I know there ain't such thing
in the Offical Universe].  As I *would* like to see
at lease some of my ship's back again, I'll
limit the expedition time to 20 years.  [Yes, this 
is taken from the old  Imperium Romanum Legionairre's
sign-up time].  Assume the standard IISS jump
cycle, and we get  400 jumps, or 1200 parsec's
at jump-3 for ten years.

Oops!  I forgot to take out the four years time
for exploration.  That gives us 16 years for actual
travel time, or 8 years one-way.  That gives us 320 jumps,
or 960 parsec's out.

If my little expedition is lost with all ship's... well, guessing that
information outside of the Imperium travel's at "jump-1.5", 
it will take at least 12 years for the first rumour's to surface in
Imperium space.

And BTW, you can bet these expeditions are going to be all-male!
I'm sending them to look around, not start a colony!

>Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:52:59 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>Article I: "Any world may, through a
>recognized representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, 
>and in so doing, such world shall become a member of the 
>Imperium, equal in status to all other members of Imperium.  
>Member worlds shall govern themselves 
>as they see proper, provided that such government does not violate 
>Imperial laws."

Now, in the real (ie: three-dimentional :) universe, 
the Imperium would indeed have all these small blobs
of systems and worlds, isolated from the main body
of the Imperium.  However, we just don't have
that many isolated Imperial worlds.  Therefore, 
I would think that the Imperium would have to
choose the worlds, rather then have the worlds
choose the Imperium
 
Also, there's no way I'll tolerate the "Equal in status to
all other members of the Imperium" part.  Sector
capitals are going to get benefits pop-2 vacumn world
ain't touching.  And the Imperium would certainly favour
high-pop systems over others.

>Not strictly necessary since Article VIII of the Warrant of
>Restoration(Milieu 0, pg. 84), gives the Imperium the 
>authority to do whatever it
>wants with regard to member worlds.  (This is the fine print your lawyer
>should have read before you signed).

Could you post that juicy bit of legal boilerplate?

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:41:44 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Imperial Justice vs Local Justice (long)

<snip>

>Remember, the Imperium is not entirely a nation of laws - it is 
>mostly a nation of men.

This is one of the key's to understanding the Traveller universe
- - although I doubt the "nation" part.  It's more a bizzare federation
of interstellar corportations, high-pop system governments, 
noble families, and the Imperial Navy, united around one man
and a code of Tradition and Honour.
 
(The Imperial Bueaucracy used to be so powerful it could run 
the Imperium by itself as the nobles and the Navy ripped into 
each other - a la the Civil War. Not anymore...)

>Remember that the Imperium, at least on the frontier, is spread far
>and wide when it comes to resources.

Not just there.  Outside of the military, the Imperium is rather
a lightly-funded organization I suspect.  Before the age of the 
incredibly growing nation-state, most of a nation's revenue's 
went directly to the military.  Here, I bet the major fraction's 
of the Imperium - nobility, corporations, high-pop systems - 
all want *less* interference with their lives and their property.  
Many are quite well-armed  (or can get well-armed in a 
short time).  Even without arms, they 
could cause a ton of political or economic damage in 
a short time.  Supressing all of them is quite impossible for 
the Emperor to do.  Thus, I would guess even in Core 
sector the number of MoJ agents is *just* sufficent for 
day-to-day operations.

> If all twelve MoJ agents in
>this subsector are busy tracking down a 200 kidnappings a week
>slaving ring, they may not have time to investigate when a citizen from
>one backwater world goes a-missing on another backwater world.

I don't care to even speculate how long that list of missing citizens is
in the Spinward Marches.  If it's just a low-social standing citizen,
wandering in a known danger zone, I doubt that they will even 
bother.  Average folks dissapearing on a supposedly safe world
will be dealt with by the local authorities, unless there is a pattern of
dissapearances or there is finally is some time to catch up
with the backlog.

>If it suits the Imperium, or is too big to ignore, they clamp down on
>it hard.

Exactly.

<snipped useful Adventure Seed>

>Add in a Survey that was performed in the long easy season, that
>didn't talk to the original inhabitants and made assumptions based
>on their low-tech lifestyle. 
 
Heh.  I wonder how many Detached Survey scout's are really
interested in scouting, rather then filling out the forms and
getting back to their side businesses?

<snip>

>I wonder, though - an Imperial Marine on guard duty sees someone
>getting grabbed by the evil local Secret Police. Officially he can do
>nothing - what happens to this Marine if he hears a desperate cry
>for help, grabs the prisoner and drags him across the line?

>"Sir! The Citizen was being attacked, and I rendered assistance
>as per instructions regarding lending assistance to the citizenry, Sir!
>The street was noisy, I did not hear the attackers identify themselves
>as Police Inspectors, Sir! Sir, by the time they regained conciousness,
>the citizen had fled into the Starport, Sir!"   <g>

And of course, many nobles have a soft spot for the Maines....

Actually, I suspect that Imperial personnel operating in their
assigned position have certain legal protections that smart
people don't trifle with.  Moreover, the local noble judicary
are more likely to believe Imperial personnel than the locals, IMO.
 
Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #709
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 3 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 710



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Word's to live by....
Re: Hello from Minnesota
Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....
Imperial Envelope
re: Words to Live By
Re: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles
Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet
re: Naval Logistics
Creation of the Vilani Language
re: Naval Logistics
Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:35:02 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Word's to live by....

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:41:44 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Imperial Justice vs Local Justice (long)

>Remember, the Imperium is not entirely a nation of laws - it is 
>mostly a nation of men.

This is definitely one of the Words to Live By, 
when in the Imperium.  What other Words could
you think of?

I'm not witty enough to think of many more -- can
you help me out here?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:11:12 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Hello from Minnesota

Kewl! Which sector is that in?
Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 5:24 AM
Subject: Hello from Minnesota


>Just a question as the new guy on the list..
>
>Is there ANYONE at all that plays Traveller (any incarnation) in Minnesota,
>hopefully near Duluth?  I realize that we're low tech out here in the
>boonies, but there's gotta be someone nearby!
>
>Any info appreciated.
>
>NightWo1f
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:06:58 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....

Gordon Horne wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Has anyone every considered the horrendous logistical problems those
sprawling, mixed-tech Imperial fleets must have? Forget standardization
between 11,000 worlds. Mixed standards within the fleets (obvious from the
varying tech levels) would render them effectively impotent in any extended
campaign.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's why each sector devotes an entire *star system* - sometimes
more than one - to fleet support. Fabrication plants, raw material
stockpiles, large support staff - I'll bet every Imperial ship has microfiche
engineering diagrams of every module, widget and sub-assembly on
board. Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
like it is on the far side of Corridor. You don't have it, Depot makes
it. You bring a lot of _Shoshone_ class Destroyers into Depot's
sector, Depot will probably start churning out spare parts for them
as soon as possible - just to be ready.

Why do you think Navy surplus & salvage is such a
lucrative career?  <g>

I'll bet a lot of each FleetRon consists of cargo ships stocked with
spare parts, too.

Still, I'll bet if anything would cause standardization it would be
the Imperial Navy. Design specifications arrive at Sector Capital
from Core, saying that all new builds must *minimally* meet
specification such-and-such...if you can't meet the spec, you
build other things while your competitor gets the lucrative navy
contract. Wanna bet that, if you build ships, you won't bother
changing very much from Navy standards when you use part
of your shipyard for civilian builds? Standardization spreads....

This will also give PC's an excuse for getting more out of their
hardware than they are supposed to. An average engineer will
know that the drive is rated at 2G, but a hotshot engineer might
know that Ling Standard machined down some high performance
coils off their 3G parts line to meet the spec on this particular
- - and might be able to kick some extra power out when you need it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:56:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Imperial Envelope

Alvin Plummer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Assume that the average jump cycle for this crew 
is 77% of the time in jump space, 23% of the journey 
time refuelling, repairing, negotiating with the local 
authorities, etc. (Say a week in jumpspace, 
2 days in realspace) That work's out to 40 actual jump's 
a year, so make it 80 parsec's for a jump-2 ship.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since I can't imagine a Sector Duke undertaking 
a project like this merely to go farther than anyone
else has, you'll be travelling a lot slower than this.
You'll want to stop at each system for at least
a preliminary survey, get enough data for your
science staff to chew on for the week in jumpspace.
Add extra time for checking out the real anomalies,
such as lost colonies, suspected Ancients sites,
and so on. I'd up the average stay per system to
at least three days, if not four. And remember you
have to stop at each system as you go in direction
such-and-such, and many such systems will be
one parsec apart. If this happens half the time, 
your average jump is now 1.5 parsecs.
The slightly longer stay times and lower average
jumps will cut your range to between 50 and
60 parsecs (closer to 50).

Unless you are building on the work of a previous
expedition - "Go to the forward base established
ten years ago by Admiral Quochet's expedition,
and proceed from there!" - then you could
go with two day stays or less, but stellar
density variations would make you lucky to
get your average jump above 1.7 parsecs,
all those times you have to jump one parsec
to set yourself up to cross a two-parsec gulf.
That'll get you out about 70 parsecs in a year.

We're assuming here that the "Scout Tender"
you brought along was capable of performing
annual maintenace, or that you can twiddle
the drives on a scout ship so you can do
annual maintenance with blood and sweat
instead of a shipyard (which is the case IMTU).

If you're going rapid transit to a forward base,
intending to start a deep penetration survey
from there, I'd recommend putting all mission
specialists and replacement crew members
in low berths, perhaps rotating awake crews
with reserve crews. A year of staring at the
innards of jump space seven days out of nine
can be a long, long time.

Alvin again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For a military expedition (find the problem, kill it, go home),
Jump-4 is the standard.  They also spend less time 
talking to people, have fewer diplomatic hassles, 
and military-grade information and map's.  Let's
guess that the jump cycle here is 7 days jumpspace,
12 hours realspace = 93% jump, 7% real.  That work's 
out to 48 jumps in a year, or 192 parsec's out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Twelve hours won't allow you enough time for refueling ops.
Also, stellar density again - with Jump-4 it's not as much
of a problem, but you'll still not get your full Jump-4 every
single time. Though I can imagine that there are carefully
planned optimum Jump-4 routes (and Jump-3, and Jump-5)
between every Depot and major Naval Base in the Imperium.

If you stretch the average stay time to a day, and assume
90% efficiency at getting Jump-4, you're down to travelling
162 parsecs from one annual maintenance to another.


Alvin again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My jump-3 exploration flotilla is composed of lifer 
IISS Scout's, say.  [Yes, I know there ain't such thing
in the Offical Universe].  As I *would* like to see
at lease some of my ship's back again, I'll
limit the expedition time to 20 years.  [Yes, this 
is taken from the old  Imperium Romanum Legionairre's
sign-up time].  Assume the standard IISS jump
cycle, and we get  400 jumps, or 1200 parsec's
at jump-3 for ten years.

Oops!  I forgot to take out the four years time
for exploration.  That gives us 16 years for actual
travel time, or 8 years one-way.  That gives us 320 jumps,
or 960 parsec's out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Based on my more conservative figures from
above, and assuming there was *nothing* of
interest along the eight year voyage out to the
research area, your forward base would be about
560 parsecs from home - but I think, at this point,
you'll have to allow time for your epic space
explorers to mine for some raw materials to
make more spare parts and Imperial Scout
Chow from.

(Not too unusual, by the way - when the Romans
first circumnavigated Africa, they stopped along the
coast every planting season and replenished their
food supplies by stopping for a couple months to
grow grain.)

If you want to go farther, set maximum distance as
your goal and send a flotilla of scout-variant
Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, with Jump-5
support ships. The Jump-2 vessels you've been
talking about aren't designed to be jump-space
greyhounds, they're designed to carry research
teams to far-off worlds - no point in choosing
standard IISS craft if you're not going to stop
and eat the daisies along the way.

Alvin again:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If my little expedition is lost with all ship's... well, guessing that
information outside of the Imperium travel's at "jump-1.5", 
it will take at least 12 years for the first rumour's to surface in
Imperium space.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Probably not, unless some of your ships escaped whatever
horrible thing ate the rest - once you get out of known space,
"worlds are full of life, space is empty" (_The Traveller Book_).
Except for the jump drives you brought with you, no one
"out there" has FTL travel...that we know of.

Alvin again:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And BTW, you can bet these expeditions are going to be all-male!
I'm sending them to look around, not start a colony!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

20 years without the benefit of female companionship? Just
better hope none of those dangerous aliens you discover
bear any resemblance to exotic even barely humanoid
women...

"Wow, didja see the legs on that Class V Omnivore Chaser?
 Cute!!!"

"Fred, cut it out."

"It's a she, I know it...intelligent, too. I could see it in her
eyes..."

"Fred, you only got a good look at "her" eyes because "she"
was trying to catch you and eat you at the time."

<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:03:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Words to Live By

Alvin Plummer wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Remember, the Imperium is not entirely a nation of laws - it is 
>mostly a nation of men.

This is definitely one of the Words to Live By, 
when in the Imperium.  What other Words could
you think of?

I'm not witty enough to think of many more -- can
you help me out here?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

btw, I was kind of insulting the Imperium with that
line. In a nation of laws, no one is above the law.
In a nation of men, the decisions of men are more
important than the law.

(Not that any nation is perfectly either. Note
how long it's taking to nail the American
president with a simple perjury charge
that would have finished a Congressman
inside of a month.... <g>)

In the Third Imperium, for example, the personal
power of the Emperor is only constrained by
limits of communication and traditions - as Lucan's
executions and imprisonments, and the institution
of the Imperial Writ show. There are too many people
in the Imperium who are effectively above the law. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:08:42 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....

>Gordon Horne wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Has anyone every considered the horrendous logistical problems those
>sprawling, mixed-tech Imperial fleets must have? Forget standardization
>between 11,000 worlds. Mixed standards within the fleets (obvious from the
>varying tech levels) would render them effectively impotent in any extended
>campaign.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That's why each sector devotes an entire *star system* - sometimes
>more than one - to fleet support. Fabrication plants, raw material
>stockpiles, large support staff - I'll bet every Imperial ship has microfiche
>engineering diagrams of every module, widget and sub-assembly on
>board. Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
>you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
>like it is on the far side of Corridor. You don't have it, Depot makes
>it. You bring a lot of _Shoshone_ class Destroyers into Depot's
>sector, Depot will probably start churning out spare parts for them
>as soon as possible - just to be ready.
>
<snip>
>I'll bet a lot of each FleetRon consists of cargo ships stocked with
>spare parts, too.
<snip>
>Walt Smith

Yes, but i still think fixed depots are too inflexible when communications
travel no faster than the enemy forces. (Admiral Zweistein needed these
spares a month ago. Her fleet was here at the time.) Similarly, fleet
trains of cargo ships are limited to already manufactured parts. If the
navy uses a huge number of different designs, you can bet your cargo ships
are carrying the wrong spec replacements.

It seems to me that any major task force assigned to stop an incursion or
to itself pentrate territory will need to travel with a minimum of integral
manufacture and repair capacity. For logistic flexibility i would expect
these resources to be broken down by the major tasks of mining, manufacture
and repair.

Mining ships carry prospecting shuttles and deployable extraction
equipment. These ships are capable of finding, extracting and processing
fuel and materials. (Somewhere out there is the Red Dwarf! ;) )

Factory ships carry a full set of plans for every fleet system and can
manufacture spares or expendable munitions on site using materials gathered
by the mining ships. (These are seen in the Albedo comic series.)

Repair ships can repair minor battle damage and return ships to combat or
fix severely damaged ships to an operational level which permits them to
get to a secure rear area under their own power. (One of these, the
- -Nesting-Slashtooth-Bitch- figures prominently in _The_Surviror_, one of
Donald Kingsbury's stories in the Man-Kzin Wars universe.)

These support ships are among the largest units in the fleet, dwarfing
everything except the largest dreadnoughts. They carry huge crews of
technicians which can be raided to replace casualties in combat vessels.
Together they represent a greater manufacturing capability than many
systems they visit. Vulnerable to attack, their screens of lighter combat
vessels represent a reserve for desperate commanders.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:12:01 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles 

At 06:56 pm 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere
- - would
>> be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in
large
>> quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no? If so, they would
be make
>> a much safer starship fuel than antimatter. But would the mutual
>> annihilation of positive and negative monopoles provide as much
thrust?
>
>A monopole is just a magnet.  You can't 'annihilate' it.

	A monopole is more than just a magnet. A magnet has both N and S
poles, and you can't separate them. Chop a magnet in two, and you
have two smaller magnets each with a N and a S pole. A monopole is an
isolated magnetic charge, much like an electron is a single
electrical charge.

	So what happens when you bring a N monopole and an S monopole
together? At the very least, their magnetic "charge" cancels out
leaving zero net magnetic field...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:07:55 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

At 08:02 pm 8/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
>A question for those of scientific bent:
>
>How much antimatter would you need to push an STL colony ship at 1G
to,
>say, Alpha Centauri?
>
>In essence, I suppose I'm asking: how many kiloJoules you can get
out of a
>gram of antimatter?

	E= mc^2

	 = 0.001 kg x (3x10^8 m/sec)^2

	 = 9x10^13 kg m / s^2

	'Course, it comes out in a form not necessarily readily useable ...


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:24:56 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet

At 01:17 pm 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Is it worth it?  Do you think, like I do, that most highports are at
>geosync altitude?  Should I go ahead and do the work of adding this
>calculation to the spreadsheet?  Perspiring minds want to know!  :o)

	Off the top of my head, I'd expect highports to be much lower.
Geosync tends to be way out there, causing longer travel times,
signal lag, etc... Commsats, powersats, some metsats, and other
functions requiring continuous coverage of a given location are the
only things I'd put way out there. I'd put the highport in a much
lower orbit.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:42:50 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Naval Logistics

Gordon Horne wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, but i still think fixed depots are too inflexible when communications
travel no faster than the enemy forces. (Admiral Zweistein needed these
spares a month ago. Her fleet was here at the time.) Similarly, fleet
trains of cargo ships are limited to already manufactured parts. If the
navy uses a huge number of different designs, you can bet your cargo ships
are carrying the wrong spec replacements.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Admiral Zweistein needs spares? Then she can them when her fleet
is rotated out of the line, her combat train is carrying enough to
keep her operational until then. And the first thing the Admiral did
when she got to this Sector was send a Courier to Depot so we'd
have her restock requirements in our fabrication schedule.

It isn't the best way to do things, but at least the enemy has the
same problems you do - or he's got a fleet 1-2+ tech levels lower
than yours, so he could have standardization. I'll take the logistics
troubles if I get a TL advantage out of it.

Gordon again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It seems to me that any major task force assigned to stop an incursion or
to itself pentrate territory will need to travel with a minimum of integral
manufacture and repair capacity. For logistic flexibility i would expect
these resources to be broken down by the major tasks of mining, manufacture and repair.

<some details snipped>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think the time to prospect, mine, refine, fabricate and repair
will be longer than the time it would take for a fleet supply
squadron to catch up with you. And there is always the question,
with a badly damaged ship: is it a better decision to fix it in where
it lies in harm's way, take it to a safe place, or scuttle it?

While giant mobile repair bases are very space operatic,
I think a Fleet Tender that can carry a crippled ship home
is a better idea. This is because I see two varieties of
repair tender: one that envelopes the crippled ship, and
one that docks with it. If you can envelop it, take it home.
If you dock with it, you're probably stuck to it - your
giant repair tender is on the front lines, in harm's way,
an investment more important than a battleship and
costing almost as much now vulnerable. Remember
that you aren't fixing a crippled ship in hours or days,
you're talking weeks - and a wrecked jump drive you
need to go get, you don't fix.

I usually build Fleet Tenders that can carry crippled ships
back to repair bases. Ships bigger than the max tonnage
limit for the Fleet Tender are Dreadnaughts, with redundant
systems and the most defenses you can pack into a ship
for the tech level. If the Dreadnaught gets smoked, you're
in so much trouble that it won't matter that you can't
bring it's crippled hulk home....

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:01:19 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Creation of the Vilani Language

Just checked out the web site
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html
Does anyone know how the creation of the Vilani 
language is going?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:29:56 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: re: Naval Logistics

Gordon
>Yes, but i still think fixed depots are too inflexible when communications
>travel no faster than the enemy forces. (Admiral Zweistein needed these
>spares a month ago. Her fleet was here at the time.) Similarly, fleet
>trains of cargo ships are limited to already manufactured parts. If the
>navy uses a huge number of different designs, you can bet your cargo ships
>are carrying the wrong spec replacements.

Walt
>Admiral Zweistein needs spares? Then she can them when her fleet
>is rotated out of the line, her combat train is carrying enough to
>keep her operational until then. And the first thing the Admiral did
>when she got to this Sector was send a Courier to Depot so we'd
>have her restock requirements in our fabrication schedule.
>
>It isn't the best way to do things, but at least the enemy has the
>same problems you do - or he's got a fleet 1-2+ tech levels lower
>than yours, so he could have standardization. I'll take the logistics
>troubles if I get a TL advantage out of it.
>
Gordon reply
You've still got the problem of whether or not you're carrying spares for
the systems the enemy is going to knock out in battle. Particulary as the
'current' Imperial Fleet designs i've seen span several tech levels, let
alone several standards!

Gordon (earlier)
>It seems to me that any major task force assigned to stop an incursion or
>to itself pentrate territory will need to travel with a minimum of integral
>manufacture and repair capacity. For logistic flexibility i would expect
>these resources to be broken down by the major tasks of mining,
>manufacture and repair.
>
><some details snipped>

Walt
>I think the time to prospect, mine, refine, fabricate and repair
>will be longer than the time it would take for a fleet supply
>squadron to catch up with you.

Gordon
But you know the details of the system you're fighting in, and star systems
are _big_, _empty_ places. Seize a remote rock or comet and mine it. If
combat force levels in system are roughly equal, the enemy won't have time
to seek out and harass your support element.
Unless your fleet supply train is jumping into the contested system with
two week-old information (dangerous in hot systems) there is time for your
attached support to make a difference. Particularly as the mining and
processing element can be preparing fuel for the whole fleet while combat
elements spend their time facing the enemy.

Walt
>And there is always the question, with a badly damaged ship: is it a
>better >decision to fix it in where it lies in harm's way, take it to a
>safe place, or >scuttle it?
>
>While giant mobile repair bases are very space operatic,
>I think a Fleet Tender that can carry a crippled ship home
>is a better idea.
<snip>
>
>I usually build Fleet Tenders that can carry crippled ships
>back to repair bases.

Gordon
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The vast majority of my combat units are
battle-riders. With no jump drives, jump tankage, fuel scoops or purifiers
their volume and surface area are optimized for combat: sensors, weapons
and defence. Jump tenders carry out severe cripples and carry in
replacements. Mobile repair bases are for moderate cripples that fall
between self-repair and yard jobs.

Remember, major bases are a minimum of 2, 4 or even 6 weeks round-trip from
the contested system. That's plenty of time to repair units which have been
rendered combat ineffective by specific damage to a few systems.

At this point i think we must agree to disagree, but it would be
fascinating to try a major engagement over an extended area between our two
logistically different fleets.

Gordon Horne
  ghorne@acs.ucalgary.ca
========================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
========================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:52:00 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:18:01 -0700
>From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>Considering the multiplicy of incompatible "standards" on current day
>Earth, which has only a single machine-building species with a very recent
>technology base dominated by a few industries with a large amount of shared
>engineering and instantaneous communication able to ship to any customer
>cheaply, I would imagine the Imperium, which has none of these features,
>would have a standards problem we couldn't even begin to imagine.

This implies that a TL 15 archeologist, without special training,
would have difficulty recognizing an old Solomani television set
AS a television set.  At least without tearing it apart for a few days.

And how difficult would it be to get it to actually _work_ again?

In the end, I suspect that the Imperium runs *very loosely*
on Vilani standards till TL 11: after that, it's absolute
chaos on the civilian side.  There is only slightly
less pandemonium in Colonial Navies, the Imperial Army,
and the Scout's.

When it comes to the Imperial Navy and the Marines,
"What is standard for Domain of Sylea/Core Sector/Capital
is standard for us."

<snip of a very nice post>

>I don't even think it's *possible* to have a single standard for anything
>in the entire Imperium, no matter how "integrated" the world is.

Obviously, one of the Words to Live By...

>Sure, it's possible to say everyone uses totally self-contained sealed
>power (or whatever) units shipped from a single planet everywhere in the
>Imperium, ridiculously over-engineered to work in any environment, but I
>wouldn't run MTU this way.

I doubt if even the Navy can affort this.  Maybe cerain Marine
regiment's, and high-profile Scout expeditions...

Has anyone every considered the horrendous logistical problems those
sprawling, mixed-tech Imperial fleets must have? Forget standardization
between 11,000 worlds. Mixed standards within the fleets (obvious from the
varying tech levels) would render them effectively impotent in any extended
campaign.

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:59:35 -0600
>From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
>Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>Has anyone every considered the horrendous logistical problems those
>sprawling, mixed-tech Imperial fleets must have? Forget standardization
>between 11,000 worlds. Mixed standards within the fleets (obvious from the
>varying tech levels) would render them effectively impotent in any extended
>campaign.

Just WAIT till you take a look at the Imperial Army...

(Cut away to...

Sir Jonathan  Isshiirli, Colonel of the
Imperial Army on Darl So ( a small green moon
orbiting  the Urath'hs Gas giant [Gegala system:
Khouth:Corridor] ), sigh's as 400 knight's in
cloth armour ride by, their wooden shields
proudly bearing the Imperial Sunburst...)

ANYWAY'S, the Imperial Navy ain't that bad:
the Colonial fleet's are simply a mess, but the
Imperial Navy is standardized at TL 15.
And such a major force would be quite influencial
when it comes to standards.

On the other hand, Imperial Navy standard's are just
another carrot to throw into the stew....

On the gripping hand, the very concept of
"standards" is tightly bound with militaries
and governments: the government has both the
money and the force to make Imperial equipment
build to Imperial specifications, regardless of
what the local's want to do.

Initially,  they can afford to pay Imperial prices
for their good's.  The massive orders they can
place, however, tend's to make the magic of mass
production work in their favour, making their item's, well,
less expensive then it could be.  ("That's an order
of 4 billion TL-10 laser rifles - and I demand
an additional 15% off the base price, or I will
take my order elsewhere!"  Dame Siilaki Ge
to Interstellarms Director Finemore McTavish)
Imperial military manufactor's tend to become
dependent on their major - often, sole - customer,
which gives that customer quite a lot of say.

Also, the familiarity that military men have with
Imperial standards will tend to force all
producers to build to that standard.

(Darl So: a small green moon,
UWP X563631-2, orbiting  the
Urath'hs Gas giant  [Gegala system:
Khouth:Corridor] )

All my opinion,

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #710
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, August 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 711



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval Logistics
Shameless Plug
Question about Traveller Material
Re: Question about Traveller Material 
Re: Hello from Minnesota
Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward
Re: Game
Re: Why _not_ to have UWPs in G:Traveller (was Re: Behind The Claw) 
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles
Re: Shameless Plug
Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...
Re: GeoSync
Re: GeoSync
Re: Game
Re: GeoSync
Mass = TNT
re: Words to Live By; Cutures and Authority; bric-a-brac
Re: Game
Another question: Agriculture
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Exothermic Hell
Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:05:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Naval Logistics

Gordon Horne writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At this point i think we must agree to disagree, but it would be
fascinating to try a major engagement over an extended area between our two logistically different fleets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gordon,

It might be fascinating - unfortunately, the differences in logistical strategy
aren't well addressed by the rule sets I'm familiar with. If I put the resources
into Depot-based fabrication and warehousing facilities that you put into
mobile mining, fabrication and repair facilities, I'll get more and better stuff
by an order of magnitude or two - several jumps away from the front. We
won't see my advantage coming from the rules, while your forward repair
craft would exist. The only advantage I'd get is that I'd spend the spare
money on more warships, and that isn't really the nature or comparable
quantity of the advantage my idea would give me. We'd have to make
campaign-level decisions to properly illustrate the effects of my logistics
strategy - things like upgrading the level of some of my starports, or
decreasing my in-port repair times. This would reflect more resources
spent on Depot-based logistics.

Nothing personal, but:
I still think your idea of bringing along prospecting, mining, refining
and fabrication units to the war zone is, well, silly. It would take weeks
or months to find the right ores in quantity, and forget just stumbling on
the necessary "special stuff" like Zuchai Crystals. More weeks to set
up refineries and factories and get them working. Don't forget to bring
dedicated defenses with you for them, because you *know* I'd love to 
starve your fleet's ships of spares by nailing the industrial base you
brought with you. 

You're really talking about setting up a forward base and trying to 
bootstrap it into an industrial system with class B or A facilities - 
all in what you call a "hot system". And by the time your smaller mobile 
forces have struggled in the wilderness to start doing what my Depot has 
been doing since before the war started, the battle has probably moved on.

I redirect my combat resupply chain, you abandon the mines you've
discovered and start getting set up all over again. Or you start a combat
resupply chain from your frontier-quality forward base to where the war
is - you have a poorer cargo chain than I do, and a much lower quality
(and lower quantity) production facility - and since the war has moved,
your forward base might be just as far (albeit in a different direction)
from the battle as my Depot is.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:23:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Shameless Plug

Well, I finally did it.  I applied for membership in the Traveller Webring.  
As soon as my site is accepted, I'll be Site #91.

My Traveller page is at http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/index.
html

So much for a shameless plug.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 22:39:01 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Question about Traveller Material

Hey Folks!

Is there a site out there with a list and reviews of all (or most of)
the material published for Traveller?  

For example, I don't own any of the old Gamelords suppliments and
don't have any idea of their content or quality.  If anybody runs
across old items on the net or in a gamestore somewhere, it would be
nice to be able to check out a review of the material before plonking
down cash.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:52:03 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Traveller Material 

> Is there a site out there with a list and reviews of all (or most of)
> the material published for Traveller?  

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

> For example, I don't own any of the old Gamelords suppliments and
> don't have any idea of their content or quality.  If anybody runs
> across old items on the net or in a gamestore somewhere, it would be
> nice to be able to check out a review of the material before plonking
> down cash.

The Gamelords stuff is ok, I guess.  About the only one I use a *LOT* is
Pilot's Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector.  <grin>  I've got most of them.
Personally, Startown Liberty and Wanted: Adventurers are of marginal
usefulness.  All in all, they're about on a level with the Judges' Guild as
far as useability in the most part, but a good bit better quality than the JG
stuff.  And kinda nice to have around if you use CT like I do.

BTW, where's my turn??????????????

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:41:31 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: Re: Hello from Minnesota

Subsector I of Empty Quarter sector
WPC Duluth, Mn = X468485

At 08:11 PM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Kewl! Which sector is that in?
>Thom
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 5:24 AM
>Subject: Hello from Minnesota
>
>
>>Just a question as the new guy on the list..
>>
>>Is there ANYONE at all that plays Traveller (any incarnation) in Minnesota,
>>hopefully near Duluth?  I realize that we're low tech out here in the
>>boonies, but there's gotta be someone nearby!
>>
>>Any info appreciated.
>>
>>NightWo1f
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 01:01:30 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward

Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca> seeks:

>Subject: Beyond Foreven and Spinward
>
>Would/could some kind soul provide me with any *published* sector
>data for the Far Frontiers (I through P)and Vanguard Reaches (A through
>H).  I have been advised that James Kundert may be able to help with Far
>Frontiers but I'm not sure how to contact him directly.

 As my website suggests, but never comes out and says, I can be found at:

GypsyComet@aol.com


>I have the data for the FF Jungleblut ss, but am aware of at least two
>other ss's from the storyline.  	
>
>	I could develop them myself, but I don't like re-inventing the wheel,
>so to speak. Any help would be very much appreciated.

  All of Far Frontiers was published in Traveller Chronicle (R.I.P.). The
rimward half was done by Dale Kemper about the same time the Keith
Brothers were doing adventures in the region. Despite being the current
custodian of the data, I don't know who came first...
  My own work covers the coreward half of the sector. I've stated before
that I'm not entirely happy with it, but it will do...
  I'll see if I have an electronic version of the rimward stuff.

  As for The Vanguard Reaches, the only published version is the
Paranoia Press release. This IS the version that Dale Kemper's Far Frontiers
assumes is next door.  Chuck Kallenbach (the original author) has since
revised the sector completely, and it no longer fits quite as tightly with
Dale's stuff.  Chuck and I talked about this and were working on making
adjustments when Real Life (tm) swallowed both of us.
  The new Vanguard Reaches has been available online in the past, but
Chuck's website vanished last year...

>	If the above is not possible, then could someone advise if data has
>been produced for either of the Shiants (Astron) or Chtedrdia (Fulani)
>sectors. From past discussions, these should be far enough away from
>Imperial space to be able to develop as ones *own* sector of space.

 Not that I'm aware of. The Imperium isn't THAT far away, at least in
spirit, as the Trelyn Domain in Vanguard Reaches is strongly pro-Imperial.
I suspect that Fulani's trailing edge is lousy with Chuck Kallenbach's
Eslyat, a rather xenophobic bunch IIRC.  Aside from this I wouldn't expect
any real leakage from "printed" material.

Jim Kundert
GypsyComet@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 03:40:29 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Game

Gr1zzly1@aol.com wrote:

> I am looking for a trav game in the north shore of mass. I am kind of rusty
> and havn't played in years.

Well, I'm in Boston proper and can also play.  IIRC, Thom Harris and Peter
Brenton have a compaign going, though I understand Peter is full up.  Don't
know about Thom.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:38:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Why _not_ to have UWPs in G:Traveller (was Re: Behind The Claw) 

> > > >Population 4,200,000, Impoersonal Bureaucracy, Law Level 6, TL 9.
> > remember however, that Traveller TL and Gurps TL DO NOT match!
> 
> Therefore, any UWPs published for G:Traveller will indicate _GURPS_ tech
> level,
> not Traveller tech level.  In addition, UWPs will probably indicate GURPS
> control rating, not Traveller law level.  Neither of those changes will
> increase anyone's understanding of anything....

And they'll freak out anybody that starts out in G:T and moves to T5 when it 
comes out.
 
> > And Gurps players
> > would be weaned on the UPPs making it easier for them to understand
> > Traveller sourcebooks and thus allowing them to purchase them without
> > havibg to also buy the rules!
>
> GURPS players, being sane, have little interest in being weaned on UWPs.

Some of us don't *play* GURPS.  Me, for one.

FWIW, and this is *ONLY* IMNSFBHO, SJG isn't gonna sell me anything.  There's 
too much changeover for me to want to bother to deal with.  And my particular 
fave area of Known Space, Reavers' Deep, isn't gonna be covered by SJG for 
quite some time, if ever.  I think I'm gonna sit this release out & just keep 
playing with my LLB's, my MT, & what little TNE I have laying around.  I've 
waited this long, I can wait awhile longer for T5.

No offense, Loren.  I just can't see justifying the expenditure for something 
I'm gonna have to spend massive amounts of time converting to something I can 
use when I *already* have to spend a lot of time working on making what I have 
now useable where I need it useable.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:00:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

In mail you write:

>> An alternative to antimatter - I seem to recall reading somewhere - would
>> be magnetic monopoles. I figure, if you can make antimatter in large
>> quantities, you can probably make monopoles, no? If so, they would be make
>> a much safer starship fuel than antimatter. But would the mutual
>> annihilation of positive and negative monopoles provide as much thrust?
>
> A monopole is just a magnet.  You can't 'annihilate' it.

A monpole is a (theoretical) *fundamental particle. As such it *will*
have an anti-particle with which it will react, producing lots and lots
of energy in the process.

Using monpoles as fuel has the problem that you have to keep them
*seperated* and that means you've got a pair of humongous magnetic
poles on the ship. This screws up all kinds of things.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:10:08 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Shameless Plug

Kevin Pittsinger wrote:
> Well, I finally did it. I applied for membership in the
> Traveller Webring.  As soon as my site is accepted, I'll
> be Site #91.

Just a nit-picking query ... is "antispinward" one of  your  IMTU
terms?  The cannon term for the opposite direction to spinward is
"Trailing".

Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:31:09 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure, it's possible to say everyone uses totally self-contained sealed
power (or whatever) units shipped from a single planet everywhere in the 
Imperium, ridiculously over-engineered to work in any environment, but I 
wouldn't run MTU this way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can you say, TRANSPONDERS?  <ducking and running for cover!>

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 05:04:31 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GeoSync

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>	Off the top of my head, I'd expect highports to be much lower.
>Geosync tends to be way out there, causing longer travel times,
>signal lag, etc... Commsats, powersats, some metsats, and other
>functions requiring continuous coverage of a given location are the
>only things I'd put way out there. I'd put the highport in a much
>lower orbit.

A question here, related but not specifically.

You mention signal lag, etc.  Is there a chart, or does someone have a 
chart made up that reflects the general comm/signal lag from the 100 
diameter limit to the highport (or the beacon/navsat/downport or 
whatever you use for the starport authority)?  I'm looking for something 
(even the formula would work and I can make up my own chart) that I can 
use for when the ship precipitates out of jump at a size 4 world, then a 
size 9 world, then a size S world, etc. and the sensors/comm 
suite/transponders squawk their arrival.  

Maybe just a chart with representative distances and signal lag time in 
seconds....

I'd like to know (or know how to figure) the seconds or minutes it takes 
to "have a conversation" or computer communication with the authorities.  
Thanks...


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:31:38 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: GeoSync

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Greg Smith wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> You mention signal lag, etc.  Is there a chart, or does someone have a 
> chart made up that reflects the general comm/signal lag from the 100 
> diameter limit to the highport (or the beacon/navsat/downport or 
> whatever you use for the starport authority)?  I'm looking for something 
> (even the formula would work and I can make up my own chart) that I can 
> use for when the ship precipitates out of jump at a size 4 world, then a 
> size 9 world, then a size S world, etc. and the sensors/comm 
> suite/transponders squawk their arrival.  


Signals sent will travel at 300.000.000 m/s = 300.000 km/s, so you'll have
a chart somewhat like this

  World                 Ship(100dia)->Highport(10dia)  

  Earth (6383km)               2s
  Jupiter (71492km)           21s
  Mercury (2440km)           0.7s 


> 
> Maybe just a chart with representative distances and signal lag time in 
> seconds....
> 
> I'd like to know (or know how to figure) the seconds or minutes it takes 
> to "have a conversation" or computer communication with the authorities.  
> Thanks...

> The Count,

The formula is 

        distance in km / 300.000 km/s = signal travel time

so for a signal sent to highport at Earth would take 2s and a reply would
take another 2s giving a waiting time of 4s.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:55:36 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Game

>I am looking for a trav game in the north shore of mass. I am kind of rusty
>and havn't played in years.
>
>Brad Goudey
>Gr1zzly1@aol.com
>Swampscott

Our campaign is open to "drop ins" which, IMHO is an excellent way to
"evaluate" the fit for both (new and existing) players and GM of a
potential new player.

The basic idea is to give the visiting player a character who is usually an
NPC and let them do their thing.  This may or may not be a "party member".
If things look likely the person can either take over the character
permanently or, if they wish, roll their own.

Oh, I'm in Malden (soon to be Medford).  Contact me via email privately if
you wish to "drop in", either Brad or anyone else here or passing through.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:31:16 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GeoSync

The Count Said;
>You mention signal lag, etc.  Is there a chart, or does someone have a
>chart made up that reflects the general comm/signal lag from the 100
>diameter limit to the highport (or the beacon/navsat/downport or
>whatever you use for the starport authority)?  I'm looking for something
>(even the formula would work and I can make up my own chart) that I can
>use for when the ship precipitates out of jump at a size 4 world, then a
>size 9 world, then a size S world, etc. and the sensors/comm
>suite/transponders squawk their arrival.
>
>Maybe just a chart with representative distances and signal lag time in
>seconds....

Ask and ye shall receive...It's quite simple.  Please excuse my simpleness
in using miles rather than km, It's my unit of choice in this instance.

1 light sec = 186k miles

Size    Dist of   One Way Signal
Code    100 Dia    Trav Time
 S       25,000mi   0.14 sec
 0       12,500     0.07
 1      100,000     0.54
 2      200,000     1.08
 3      300,000     1.62
 4      400,000     2.16
 5      500,000     2.69
 6      600,000     3.23
 7      700,000     3.77
 8      800,000     4.31
 9      900,000     4.84
10    1,000,000     5.38
SGG*  2,500,000    13.45
LGG** 6,000,000    32.26

*SGGs are "20 to 60 thousand km diameter" per MT ref's manual.  I used the
middle value of 40,000 km or about 25,000 miles
**LGGs are "60 to 120 thousand km diameter" per MT ref's manual.  I used
the middle value of 95,000 km or about 60,000 miles

This is one way.  Two way communication doubles this.  So a conversation
with someone 3 seconds away will look like this from the point of view of
the ship;

Ship: "Hey Jack!"
(3 sec for message to travel to planet, planet person say's "what")
(3 sec to travel back, ship hears;)
Planet: "Hey what?!?"

Conversations would probably be more like brief, alternating, monologues.
Perhaps email would work better ;)

Note that if the star's 100 diameter limit is further from the star than
the mainworld (as occasionally happens with large, cool star types), an
emerging ship will, in all likelihood, be much farther from the mainworld
than a few light seconds.

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:23:07 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Mass = TNT

Leonard Erickson has mentioned numerous times the velocity at which a
starship (or other mass) can be considered to equal its weight in TNT when
hitting another mass. Could he (or someone else) give me this velocity
again, please?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:17 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re: Words to Live By; Cutures and Authority; bric-a-brac

Walt Smith encapsulated the whole of Imperial authority with the line:

>Remember, the Imperium is not entirely a nation of laws - it is 
>mostly a nation of men.

This calls to my mind the difference between ancient Egypt and
Babylon.  Babylon had the Code of Hammurabi, and the law was
above all people, because their society was so unstable and
their lives were so uncertain to begin with.  Egypt, on the
other hand, had a stable world, with extremely predictable
flood cycles etc.  So their Pharaoh was the absolute authority,
and nobody minded.  Their culture was so stable it got stuck 
in its own conservatism, and they fell behind in some technological
aspects.  Of course, they did flourish for a rather looong time
too... from 3000 BC to 1800 BC for the Old Kingdom, I think.

Thus the 3rd Imperium is a very stable, conservative empire,
where the Emperor is the final word.  Technological advancement is 
very slow but the people are happy.  Psionics are borderline "liberal".

I would assume their longevity is due in part to the Vilani culture,
except for one thing: aren't the Vilani supposed to have seeded
the Sumerian culture?  Since the Sumerians are so short-lived,
I guess their method of rule wasn't appropriate for the Fertile
Crescent; however, there might also have been a colony in Egypt,
which may explain their stability.  But how about the Vilani script?
If Sumer used cuneiform, then shouldn't Vilani be heiroglyphic and
rather calligraphic/wedgelike?

Okay, I should crosspost this to TravLang, eh?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:38:47 EDT
From: Gr1zzly1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Game

i am only famillier with clasic trav.  i was thinking of an in person game not
email i have never done that before. i can get a yahoo address easy  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:41:53 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Another question: Agriculture

I remember not too long ago someone had some figures agricultural
production: the number of people per year a plot of land could support or
something similar. Could anyone provide me with a pointer to a website that
deals with this, or just give me the information via email?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:38:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> Kurt types:
>>At 12:20 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>ps. After all the comments on the list I picked up a copy of "On
>>>>Basilisk Station" the other day. Blast it! Now I have to find a way to
>>>>buy the rest of the books! :-)
>>>I have the entire set.  It's ripping good Space Opera.  There is a new one
>>>coming out next month.  
>>I wonder what her skills and UCP would be...
>
> Damn good.  The HHU has 'Prolong', and anti-aging formula.  She's got over
> thirty years in the Royal Manticorian Navy and looks barely out of her
> teens.  Let's see, she's a heavy worlder, so jack up the strength and
> endurance.  Genengineered so she doesn't look like a heavy worlder.  Very
> high brawling skill.  Expert shot with handguns (gunpowder & pulsers (gauss
> weapons on steriods, they use grav tech)),  melee weapon, melee weapon
> (long blade), and of course tactics, starship pilot, astrogration, etc., etc.

You forgot unarmed combat. She's an expert at "coup de vitesse".

>    She's the NPC you keep around to annoy the players.

One of many. Never forget the "mystery NPCs" from one of the Early
supplements. Folks like Jason dinAlt (from Harry Harrison's
"Deathworld" books).

I'd love to see Honor confronted with Miles Vorkosigan (and vice-versa).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:44:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell

In mail you write:

>
> Morgan wrote:
>
>>  Yes, but wasn't Persian Hell cold. It depends on which Hell you look at
>>the problem with.
>
> There is that.  (Though it doesn't cure his poor logic in that last step.)
>
> ObTraveller:  I wonder what temperature the Vilani hell is/was?

Well, as anyone who has read Dante's "Inferno" can tell you, while
certain sections of hell *are* the "flaming hells" most people think
of, the Ninth Circle is frozen solid!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:24:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Antimatter and Monopoles

In mail you write:

> The amount of energy you get out of a gram of antimatter is just given by
> E=mc^2; 1 gram (plus one gram of normal matter) releases 
> (0.002kg)*(3e8m/s)^2=
> 2e14 joules = 200 billion kiloJoules. This sounds like a lot (OK, it is 
> a lot), but rockets are inefficient at energy use - most of the energy in a 
> rocket goes into its exhaust. The most efficient way to use antimatter
> fuel (in some sense) is a "photon rocket" - all the energy goes into photons
> rather than using any of it to heat more solid exhaust. (This is "most      
> efficient" in that rather than carrying a resevoir of reaction mass it's
> more efficient to just carry more antimatter and annihilate the reaction
> mass instead.) However, the efficiency of this is terrible. To accelerate a 
> 1000-ton rocket that can accelarate for about four years at 1 G requires
> 33000 tons of matter/antimatter fuel. 

Just a note, a "photon rocket" is actually *less* efficient than
something using reaction mass for complicated reasons involving
relative velocities and momentum transfer. I've had it explained to me,
but I don't remember it well enough to explain it myself.

Also, since *one* year at 1 g (ignoring relativity) produces a velocity
of c, the ship's velocity and distance covered are going to be
*dominated* by relativistic effects.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #711
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, August 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 712



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mass = TNT
Re: antimatter                  
UWPs In BTC
Re: antimatter
Re: Question about Traveller Material
Re: Exothermic Hell
Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested
Transponders
Re: Shameless Plug 
Re: Game 
Re: Questions about Traveller Material
Re: GeoSync
Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re Alvin Plumer's Alternative timeline
Re: UWPs In BTC
Re: Transponders
Imperial Standards
Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested
Re: Questions about Traveller Material
Fightercraft
Re: Question about Traveller Material
Re: Question about Traveller Material 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:32:24 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Mass = TNT

>Leonard Erickson has mentioned numerous times the velocity at which a
>starship (or other mass) can be considered to equal its weight in TNT when
>hitting another mass. Could he (or someone else) give me this velocity
>again, please?
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net

About 3 km/s (2.89 km/s)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:25:55 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: antimatter                  

>Just a note, a "photon rocket" is actually *less* efficient than
>something using reaction mass for complicated reasons involving
>relative velocities and momentum transfer. I've had it explained to me,
>but I don't remember it well enough to explain it myself.

It depends on your definitions of efficiency. Per unit energy, if you have a
choice of using that energy to heat a gram of hydrogen into plasma and put that
out a nozzle, or using the energy to make photons and shining them out the   
back for thrust, it's vastly more efficient to use the hydrogen. On the other
hand, if you have a choice between using the hydrogen for plasma and 
instead converting the hydrogen into energy (by carrying half hydrogen and
half antihydrogen), the latter always gets you more delta-V; it's 
generally more efficient to burn fuel than throw it away unburned.

(Photon drives have such terribly low accelerations that for most practical
applications the plasma variant is more efficient in terms of getting to a
destination more quickly, but that's a more subtle effect.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:45:49 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: UWPs In BTC

There will be no UWPs in BTC. That's a fact.

All the world data in the book has been expanded from the Supplement 3
UWPS, and apart from a couple of worlds where the government has changed
thanks to events in the past 15 years, they're still valid.

But, as has been observed: law and tech levels are different in GURPS. And
besides: if someone has gone to the trouple of writing out the data from
the UWP, and you now know that the world has a standard atmosphere tainted
by great flying lumps of cheese, why do you need to look at a bunch of
numbers, refer to a  table, and discover that '6' means 'standard,
tainted'. It'd be a waste of space.

Forget comments about the relative sanity of gamers: there's limited space
in a game book. Why waste it on printing something that's already in the
text when you could use the space for something else?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:57:27 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: antimatter

>(Photon drives have such terribly low accelerations that for most practical
>applications the plasma variant is more efficient in terms of getting to a
>destination more quickly, but that's a more subtle effect.)
>
>Bruce

A TL issue. The more "reaction mass" you mix with your antimatter the lower
the nozzle temperature which is probably the limiting factor for antimatter
drives. Building an antimatter drive with say the same Isp as a fusion
drive is probably easier so it might just be the thing to do as the fuel
production can be put on the ground.

Check out http://antimatter.phys.psu.edu/ for facts on antimatter drives.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:04:13 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Question about Traveller Material

>The Gamelords stuff is ok, I guess.  About the only one I use a *LOT* is
>Pilot's Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector.  <grin>  I've got most of them.
>Personally, Startown Liberty and Wanted: Adventurers are of marginal
>usefulness.  All in all, they're about on a level with the Judges' Guild
>as far as useability in the most part, but a good bit better quality than
>the JG stuff.  And kinda nice to have around if you use CT like I do.
>
>BTW, where's my turn??????????????
>
>Keven

I find Startown Liberty the most useful product. A ready made supplement
full of ideas adventure seeds etc to give your players during those run of
the mill startown booze blasts each system stop tend to devolve into.
Mountain/Desert environment are good to but WAY too narrow in scope
(basically TL-7 diving/climbing as a sport)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:53:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >
> > Morgan wrote:
> >
> >>  Yes, but wasn't Persian Hell cold. It depends on which Hell you look at
> >>the problem with.
> >
> > There is that.  (Though it doesn't cure his poor logic in that last step.)
> >
> > ObTraveller:  I wonder what temperature the Vilani hell is/was?
>
> Well, as anyone who has read Dante's "Inferno" can tell you, while
> certain sections of hell *are* the "flaming hells" most people think
> of, the Ninth Circle is frozen solid!

Well, going by the supposition of the expanding Hells, its pretty obvious.  Some
areas of Hell are expanding faster than they are being filled since the death
rates around the world vary.  Thus some hells are endothermic while others are
exothermic.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:12:49 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested

[I can't reiterate this simply, so I'm snipping it]
>  Any comment would be appreciated.
>
>I think you've got it.
>
>Bloo

I'm not arguing about what PE says, but I have an objection.

Basically I think this methodology leaves too few social standings.

The family of the nobility of the "empires" ruler should be considered
"above" the station of all other folk out to a certain extent.

If the Archon in the previous example is Soc D, then this is not much of a
problem.  I see a problem, though, if any member of "royalty" falls (at
birth) below Soc A in rank.  This would imply they are not royalty, and as
such, commoners of the society may be of equal rank.

Now, at some point (2nd cousin?  3rd?) Ther must be a transition point, but
that means you need three levels of Soc; One for the Ruler him or herself,
one for the immediate royalty (heir, sibling, spouse, non-heir children)
and one for "everyone else" of royal stature or relation.

Just my Cr.0.02

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:33:01 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Transponders

>Sure, it's possible to say everyone uses totally self-contained sealed
>power (or whatever) units shipped from a single planet everywhere in the
>Imperium, ridiculously over-engineered to work in any environment, but I
>wouldn't run MTU this way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Can you say, TRANSPONDERS?  <ducking and running for cover!>
>
>The Count,
>MonteCristo@hotmail.com
>______________________________________________________


The transponders are a special case. The inconvenience of having to ship
transponders all over the imperium is made up for in a number of ways.

For a start every ship licensed in imperial space would be required to have
one by law and the cost of the transponder would be part of the licensing
cost. This means that even if you have to ship it from Core to the Spinward
Marches (for example) you can still ensure you don't make a loss (on
average) by correctly costing licensing. The 'black box' part of the
transponder would probably be quite small and not weigh much which means the
costs for shipping them would not be too great.

The major benefits are of course those given for the use of the transponders
in the first place.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:47:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Shameless Plug 

> Kevin Pittsinger wrote:
> > Well, I finally did it. I applied for membership in the
> > Traveller Webring.  As soon as my site is accepted, I'll
> > be Site #91.
> 
> Just a nit-picking query ... is "antispinward" one of  your  IMTU
> terms?  The cannon term for the opposite direction to spinward is
> "Trailing".

Yeah, I know.  What page was that on, the Acuso stuff?  That sector is getting taken off, since I started working on Revers' Deep.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:01:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Game 

> i am only famillier with clasic trav.  i was thinking of an in person game not
> email i have never done that before. i can get a yahoo address easy  

Right now, I'm full up & starting my waiting list.  Lemme know when you get 
your Yahoo address so we can set you up as a lurker.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:06:03 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Traveller Material

>Hey Folks!

>Is there a site out there with a list and reviews of all (or most of)
>the material published for Traveller?  

I've got a lot of reviews of CT stuff on my web site. Not everything (far
from it), but a lot of the stuff by GDW, and some of the stuff by FASA.  I
add to it everytime I get something else (which isn't as often as I like).
No Gamelords material, though - I don't have any (someday, though...). It
never occured to me to do reviews for the JG material - it's almost
universally bad. 

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/travrev.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 98 19:02:20 +0000
From: goldendj@pcisys.net
Subject: Re: GeoSync

> You mention signal lag, etc.  Is there a chart, or does someone have a 
> chart made up that reflects the general comm/signal lag from the 100 
> diameter limit to the highport (or the beacon/navsat/downport or 
> whatever you use for the starport authority)?  I'm looking for something 
> (even the formula would work and I can make up my own chart) that I can 

    Time lag, one way, in seconds is equal to distance in kilometers 
divided by 300,000. Two way time lag is then double that ...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:33:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Status of SOpM Spreadsheet

In mail you write:

> The hold-up is in calculating a world's geosync orbit altitude.  I think
> it's necessary to include this because it's my belief that most
> highports will be in geosync orbit.  But calculating geosync orbit
> altitude is not easy.
>
> Fortunately, World Builder's Handbook gives me what I need to be able to
> calculate it.  It requires I know the world's UWP size digit, plus its
> star's type.  From this, a number of calculations to derive such things
> as the world's density, mass, rotational period can be made, with much
> table lookup and a few random numbers, which are ultimately used to get
> the world's geosync orbit calculation.

Well, there are problems with this. Consider that Venus orbits the same
star as Earth, and in an orbit not that different. Yet it has a "day"
almost the same length as it's *year*. 

I think your best bet is to prompt the user for the length of the
planet's day, but fill in the "default" value from World Builder's
Handbook. That allows creative refs to add in their own info, but only
requires an extra keystroke for folks who don't care.

> Is it worth it?  Do you think, like I do, that most highports are at
> geosync altitude?  Should I go ahead and do the work of adding this
> calculation to the spreadsheet?  Perspiring minds want to know!  :o)

Geosynch is convenient. But don't forget to add checks for
"reasonableness". For example, if a planet's rotation is slow enough, a
geosynch station is impossible because the station is so far away that
it's orbiting the *star*, not the planet. Likewise, with a fast
rotation, it'll be too close to be safe.

And a highport gets *really* weird if the "planet" is a satellite of a
gas giant. Stable orbits have to be fairly close in in that situation.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:22:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> Great post, Walt.  And some good law in it.  I have just some minor
> criticisms, from my fresh-out-of-law-school perspective.
>
> BTW: this topic seems to periodically reappear.
> Would there be interest in a small supplement concerning
> the MoJ, Imperial Courts, Noble Courts, Civil Courts,
> Criminal Courts, Bounty Hunting, Repossession,
> [I've always wanted to be part of a group of
> players that work as interstellar repossessors], etc.
> I'd love to use my legal knowledge in a fun way.

Sounds like a nice supplement. Just be sure to include examples of some
of the *weirder* legal principles that exist or have existed on Terra,
as things that can be encounterted on various worlds (Islamic Law, Code
Napoleon, etc).

> Due to the supremacy clause of the Warrant of Restoration in Article
> I (Milieu 0, p. 83), "No interference with local law or custom is
> contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict
> with imperial law.", all Imperial crimes would essentially be
> incorporated into the laws of all member worlds.  Thus, piracy,
> slavery, etc., cannot be legal on any member world.  I think the same
> applies to kidnapping and all other Imperial crimes.

On the other hand, it's not *that* hard to come up with *legal*
practices that are functionally equivalent in many cases.

For example, slavery may be illegal, but indentured servitude is likely
quite legal. And with a bit of a stretch, I can see a character being
"sold" to someone to work as their unpaid servant until he works off a
debt. (It pays to read the fine print on those contracts *and* to stufy
the local legal system :-). 

Likewise, the difference between pirates and privateers is somewhat
academic to their victims. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:38:25 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Alvin Plumer's Alternative timeline

[Snip!!!]

Wonderful read! Well written.

IMTU, I stuck with the rebellion. Some PC's decided to take matters into
their own hands, and in mid 1117, went to assasinate Lucan. They installed
Dulinor (as Barracks Emperor) by holding the moot hostage, once reconvened.
Basically, it was a case of "Dulinor is here, and the legal emperor. If you
fail to confirm this, He will die... As will all of you. [activates comm
link with orbiting BatRon Commander, loyal to PC] Admiral, the announcement
of the new emperor will  be your signal... if not our choice, kill us all
down here." The PC's were from the Marches, and had brought some of the
Corridor fleets with them "In accordance to Lucan's 'Imperial Wishes'".
Lucan was assasinated by tracing a call to him, then MESON and Particle
fire at his location + or - 1 km. Followed by BD troop follow up.

Said players went on to assassinate "The Real Strephon"... they were quite
aghast when Survival Margin came out, revealing the TRS was really TRS!


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:33:12 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: UWPs In BTC

> There will be no UWPs in BTC. That's a fact.
BTW: Will BTC include the whole 4 sectors of the Domain of Deneb, as the title implies, or will it just encompass the Spinward
Marches?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:50:36 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Transponders

I guess I should have said "intelligent transponders that talk to one 
another"

- ------------------

>From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
>To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Subject: Transponders
>Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:33:01 +0100
>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>
>>Sure, it's possible to say everyone uses totally self-contained sealed
>>power (or whatever) units shipped from a single planet everywhere in 
the
>>Imperium, ridiculously over-engineered to work in any environment, but 
I
>>wouldn't run MTU this way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>Can you say, TRANSPONDERS?  <ducking and running for cover!>
>>
>>The Count,
>>MonteCristo@hotmail.com
>>______________________________________________________
>
>
>The transponders are a special case. The inconvenience of having to 
ship
>transponders all over the imperium is made up for in a number of ways.
>
>For a start every ship licensed in imperial space would be required to 
have
>one by law and the cost of the transponder would be part of the 
licensing
>cost. This means that even if you have to ship it from Core to the 
Spinward
>Marches (for example) you can still ensure you don't make a loss (on
>average) by correctly costing licensing. The 'black box' part of the
>transponder would probably be quite small and not weigh much which 
means the
>costs for shipping them would not be too great.
>
>The major benefits are of course those given for the use of the 
transponders
>in the first place.
>
>Paul
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:46:41 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Imperial Standards

>So my questions are:
>1. What is the Imperium government bureau that promulgates and enforces
>such standards?

IMTU, Imperial Office of Standards, part of the Ministry of Trade. IMOJ has
an eforcement arm

>2. How standard are standards?  Would you say that the higher the tech
>level, the more likely they are to follow the Imperium standards?  Or
>would it be a function of how 'integrated' into the Imperium the world
>is?

IMTU, any world exporting goods had better have them to spec. Usually, the
retooling takes around 20-30 years to be complete, but the IMoT will
subsidize retooling to standards.

Computer Standards are less so. There is, IMTU, an "Imperial Virtual
Machine" with a standardized instruction set. All computers for military
use MUST have the IVM as hardware emulation. All computers sold offworld
must have IVM sold with them. All machines must be capable of handling at
least Anglic and Vilani; most also will support binary. All data
transmission formatsmust have a binary header with certain key fields
(including symbology in use); some forms of encryption simply change this.
Basically, the IVM runs using Anglic or Vilani script, and has a dual
language capability.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:44:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire Clarifications requested

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> [I can't reiterate this simply, so I'm snipping it]
> >  Any comment would be appreciated.
> >
> >I think you've got it.
> >
> >Bloo
>
> I'm not arguing about what PE says, but I have an objection.
>
> Basically I think this methodology leaves too few social standings.

Agreed.  I was trying to suggest a bloodline succession system similarto PE,
since PE contemplates succession by vote of family members.

And of course, in any pocket empire, the Archon would have maximum
Soc.  I think someone posted previously some allusion to Hans-Rancke's
system which uses a much wider range of Soc.  I'd love to see this if some
one could direct me to it or post it.

> The family of the nobility of the "empires" ruler should be considered
> "above" the station of all other folk out to a certain extent.
>
> If the Archon in the previous example is Soc D, then this is not much of a
> problem.  I see a problem, though, if any member of "royalty" falls (at
> birth) below Soc A in rank.  This would imply they are not royalty, and as
> such, commoners of the society may be of equal rank.

Well, I see your point, but at some point, you're going to have members inthe
family tree that are so far removed from possible succession that they
are effectively commoners.

I was reading some medieval hisorical fiction concerning Simon de Monfort and
Llewelyn ab Gryffdh, and noticed that the King of England would chose who would

get what Earldom, or other rank, etc., and not necessarily follow the bloodline

strictly.

Its all a bloody mess.  ;-)

I was very glad to see that MM put "Noble Lands" as a mustering out benefit for

the Noble career in T5/4.1, so that I don't have to deal with high-Soc-rolling
players
who think they own a planet.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 16:17:21 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Questions about Traveller Material

On 08/04/98 at 02:06 PM,  "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com> said:

>>Hey Folks!

>>Is there a site out there with a list and reviews of all (or most of)
>>the material published for Traveller?  

>I've got a lot of reviews of CT stuff on my web site. Not everything
>(far from it), but a lot of the stuff by GDW, and some of the stuff
>by FASA.  I add to it everytime I get something else (which isn't as
>often as I like). No Gamelords material, though - I don't have any
>(someday, though...). It never occured to me to do reviews for the JG
>material - it's almost universally bad. 

Once upon a time I ran across a list of almost every Traveller product
published.  It was on the Traveller Chronicle site, I think, but
that's gone away now.  I do think it would be useful to have that list
(as complete a one as possible) available somewhere.  It would also be
nice if there was a short description for each of the products: 
number of pages, which game it was for, what was it about, if it was
useful or not.  Then there are the articles in all the various
magazines...;->

>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/travrev.html

I'll stop by your site and take a loot..oops, I mean look. ;->

Thanks, Jeremy.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:17:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fightercraft

Gordon Horne and I were corresponding about IN Logistics, and it got
me to thinking.

How much do you have to spend on defending a cargo ship before
a 50tn Strike Fighter can't cost-effectively hurt it?

Sure, a 50tn fighter isn't going to do more than annoy a dreadnaught...
but how many escorts does it take to keep the 50tn fighter away from
the Fleet Support Squadron? And how many 50tn fighters, firing by
squadron, does it take to blow up a Combat Stores ship?

Sure, we could keep the cargo ships, tankers and such near the battle
line - but that would place them in range of enemy spinal mount fire.
One Destroyer moves to intercept ten fighters, the fighters split off
by twos - Destroyer picks which two to intercept, the other eight
fly around him.

Sounds like you need fighter squadrons of your own as a screen, or
your fleet will soon be all head and no tail.

If nothing else, the presence of patrolling fighter squadrons increases
the threat level of the contested system. Maybe you need to use
higher-G Combat Support vessels, and put defensive armament on
them - increasing the cost. Even if fighters do nothing but make you
spend more on each ton of combat stores you bring with you, they
can be cost effective.

Does this make fightercraft viable fleet assets, or are they still
(as someone here once put it), nothing but "ornaments"?

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 16:21:14 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Traveller Material

On 08/03/98 at 11:52 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>The Gamelords stuff is ok, I guess.  About the only one I use a *LOT*
>is Pilot's Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector.  <grin>  I've got most
>of them.  Personally, Startown Liberty and Wanted: Adventurers are of
>marginal usefulness.  All in all, they're about on a level with the
>Judges' Guild as far as useability in the most part, but a good bit
>better quality than the JG stuff.  And kinda nice to have around if
>you use CT like I do.

So, you'd recommend buying the Pilot's Guide..., if I found it?  And
what would be in it, if I bought it? ;->

>BTW, where's my turn??????????????

Should be in your inbox!   Be nice or I'll sic Shar Ruth on you. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:53:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Traveller Material 

> So, you'd recommend buying the Pilot's Guide..., if I found it?  And
> what would be in it, if I bought it? ;->

If you like Reavers' Deep, yeah, grab it.  <grin>
 
> >BTW, where's my turn??????????????
> 
> Should be in your inbox!   Be nice or I'll sic Shar Ruth on you. ;->

Got it, replied, got the reply back, & already replied to *that*.

<sigh>  You *GOTTA* keep up, dood!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #712
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, August 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 713



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

interesting web site spotting:
To whomever wanted the Phoenix Command HTH Combat module...
re : Naval Logistics
Round pegs and square holes
Maps, Maps, Maps
Re: Fightercraft
Re: re : Naval Logistics 
re : Naval Logistics
Re: [TTL] interesting web site spotting:
re: Battledress, etc.
Lost Legions
Re: Game
Emperor's List request...
Re: Battledress, etc.
"The King" of Traveller Chat
Re: Question about Traveller Material
Re: Hello from Minnesota

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:59:51 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: interesting web site spotting:

http://antimatter.phys.psu.edu/

Discussion about moderate near-term antimatter use for space propulsion. 
It's focused around the sort of things you could do in the next couple of
decade, with moderately large ISP (10,000) from antimatter-catalyzed fusion,
requiring only nanograms of antimatter.
(This is quite different from the tonnes-of-antimatter/photon rockets we've
been discussing.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 22:42:56 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: To whomever wanted the Phoenix Command HTH Combat module...

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but someone on TML was interested in the HTH
Combat supplement for Phoenix Command.  I inadvertently deleted your post
over the weekend as I was "cleaning house" in my mailing software.

As I thought, my local gameshop does have a copy for sale.  It is $13 CAN,
which translates into roughly the cost of a Happy Meal in US Bucks :)  I
can pick it up for you the next time I'm out there, or you can contact them
directly via their website (http://www.imphobbies.com) and have them sent
it to you.  Regardless, I'd appreciate an answer to this post so I know
that it has been received by the person that originally enquired about the
availability of this supplement.

Again, sorry for the wasted bandwidth.  OT Traveller, I picked up Psionic
Institutes and NAH today since this is the time to buy any IG T4 stuff
(before the game stores run out of stock, that is).  Pretty good stuff.



James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
             ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

 "Be wewy wewy quiet... I'm hunting Womulins!!"
                         --Lt. Commander Fudd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 20:48:45
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Naval Logistics

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....
>
>I'll bet every Imperial ship has microfiche
>engineering diagrams of every module, widget and sub-assembly on
>board. Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
>you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
>like it is on the far side of Corridor. You don't have it, Depot makes
>it. You bring a lot of _Shoshone_ class Destroyers into Depot's
>sector, Depot will probably start churning out spare parts for them
>as soon as possible - just to be ready.

Personally, I'd use a small stand-alone fiber-optic computer with an
independant battery backup, as the microfiche is still power-dependant. On
the other hand, I have this image of a Vilani engineer looking up the specs
while cranking the handle to produce the power to run the microfiche lamp ....

>Still, I'll bet if anything would cause standardization it would be
>the Imperial Navy. Design specifications arrive at Sector Capital
>from Core, saying that all new builds must *minimally* meet
>specification such-and-such...if you can't meet the spec, you
>build other things while your competitor gets the lucrative navy
>contract. Wanna bet that, if you build ships, you won't bother
>changing very much from Navy standards when you use part
>of your shipyard for civilian builds? Standardization spreads....
>

A lot of designs are still going to be the good old ones that served the
Ziru Sirkaa for 5000 years. Andrew Atkin's 1000t jump-2 TL11 freighter is
an example - built with TL11 credits, it can quite easily maintain economic
viability in a TL15 empire.

Vilani megacorporations are going to have a unified if large set of
standards. Given that the bureaux have been influential in the 3I since
close to Year Zero, I'd say that even non-Vilani are going to stick with
Vilani standards, because it is the choice between using theirs, or not
selling to Vilani.

The thing that has to be remebered is the Imperium is as much a creation of
interstellar commercial interests as interstellar commercial interests are
the creation of the Imperium. And consistent standards are good for
interstellar commercial interests.

Someone also mentioned the adoption of local standards as a non-tariff
barrier to protect local industry. Somehow, I suspect that this would not
be looked on well by the commercial interests of the Imperium, and these
people have ways of dealing with such recalcitrance by local governments.
The Office of Calendar Compliance is the obvious first authority to alert
to this unfortunate development.

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Imperial Envelope
>
>"Wow, didja see the legs on that Class V Omnivore Chaser?
> Cute!!!"
>
>"Fred, cut it out."
>
>"It's a she, I know it...intelligent, too. I could see it in her
>eyes..."
>
>"Fred, you only got a good look at "her" eyes because "she"
>was trying to catch you and eat you at the time."
>
><G>

And there was me, waiting for Kenji to chip in ...

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Words to Live By
>
>Alvin Plummer wrote:
>
>In the Third Imperium, for example, the personal
>power of the Emperor is only constrained by
>limits of communication and traditions - as Lucan's
>executions and imprisonments, and the institution
>of the Imperial Writ show. There are too many people
>in the Imperium who are effectively above the law. 

But they are constrained by honour, and honour is something that can trump
self-interest.

Someone who knows how to exploit laws can do a lot of damage - 'Sue, and
appeal till they go bankrupt' is an excellent strategy for a large company
dealing with a smaller competitor. A single decision maker unconstrained by
actual law can prevent such abuses. Of course, if that decision maker does
not have their eye on justice, but on something else, then very bad things
can happen.

This is part of why the Imperium emphasised Honour so much - you cannot
pass a set of laws for 10 000 worlds, but you can hold Honour up as a
sacred trust.

>From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
>Subject: Re: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....
>
>>Gordon Horne wrote:

>Yes, but i still think fixed depots are too inflexible when communications
>travel no faster than the enemy forces. (Admiral Zweistein needed these
>spares a month ago. Her fleet was here at the time.) Similarly, fleet
>trains of cargo ships are limited to already manufactured parts. If the
>navy uses a huge number of different designs, you can bet your cargo ships
>are carrying the wrong spec replacements.

This is an excellent reasons for fleets to consist of homogenous ships.

>From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
>Subject: re: Naval Logistics
>
>But you know the details of the system you're fighting in, and star systems
>are _big_, _empty_ places. Seize a remote rock or comet and mine it. If
>combat force levels in system are roughly equal, the enemy won't have time
>to seek out and harass your support element.

This doesnt work with the very long Traveller sensor ranges. A Type S scout
is very cheap, and a dozen of them can scout out a system for anomolies in
days, especially if those anomolies are designed to support 50kton
battlewagons.

>I agree with you whole-heartedly. The vast majority of my combat units are
>battle-riders. With no jump drives, jump tankage, fuel scoops or purifiers
>their volume and surface area are optimized for combat: sensors, weapons
>and defence.

Surface area and volume arent as important as they used to be in Traveller
military ships. Mass is far more important with realistic thrust, and
hydrogen fuel for jump drives is not very massy (hydrogen masses 1 t per
dton. Most military systems mass about 20t per dton) and more mass equals
more power demand for more t-plates to maintain the same level of agility.

I suspect the optimal design may actually be a battle rider with an
auxilary jump-1, enabling the ship to do a running jump to the outsystem
when it has to. A warship is also going to fill the capacitors for jump-1
in nothing flat, and this is going to help it when the time comes to cut
and run.

>Remember, major bases are a minimum of 2, 4 or even 6 weeks round-trip from
>the contested system. That's plenty of time to repair units which have been
>rendered combat ineffective by specific damage to a few systems.

Traveller ships hit by spinal mounts tend to not have their damage limited
to a few systems. If you are substantially damaged, then retreating may
also be a problem.

>
>At this point i think we must agree to disagree, but it would be
>fascinating to try a major engagement over an extended area between our two
>logistically different fleets.

We'd need some rules for combat repair first. I suspect that the very long
operational ranges of Traveller warships would make the self-contained
fleet a viable concept.

The other thing to bear in mind is the Battle Rider concept is merely a
modification of the System Defense Boat concept, and important systems tend
to be the hi-tech industrial hi-pop ones, and these tend to have a lot of
SDBs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:37:46
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Round pegs and square holes

>From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Making sure the round peg will fit in the square hole...
>
>IMHO canon supports this. Why would planets be shipping manufactured
>equipment back and forth if everyone produced the same stuff? Obviously,
>there must be differences between goods produced or there would be no
>significant interstellar trade. IMTU, this is one reason why most starship
>computer programs are so expensive, they require significant customization.
>

Efficiencies of scale for producing expensive goods drives interestellar
trade.

Imagine we are building a widget - the good old TL8 10 MW power plant. A
hundred worlds want a hundred each per year, and they have a sticker cost
of one megacredit, payable in TL8 credits. They take up one dton each as
freight.

Built in batches of 100, they cost the sticker cost. But if built in
batches of 1000, they cost MCr 0.9. Built in batches of 10 000 the
production lines are really rolling, and they cost MCr 0.8.

Now, it will be cheaper to import one from the world that makes them than
build locally if the transport cost is less than KCr 200 in TL8 credits.

Assuming the TL8 credit trades at 0.5 to the Imperial, and shipping is done
at a cost of Cr 800 per parsec, then you can ship them about, oh, 100
parsecs before the cost of shipping overwhelms the efficiencies of scale.

>This doesn't have to be a playability problem either. If you want to gloss
>over such details just say all the  equipment your players buy has been
>produced on one planet. For more detail, just say all (for example)
>equipment produced on a single planet is interoperable, but equipment from
>different planets requires an Engineering task to be connected. For high
>detail you can tell your players they can either buy a complete new
>TransStellar jump drive in Glisten, or travel to Regina to get a
>replacement Magna Engineering eludium P366783 jump coil modulator. You only
>need to use whatever amount of detail is appropriate.
>

Buy Vilani. Everything is interoperable, and has been for 5 000 years.

>I'm not saying there won't be standards, just that they should be system-
>or technology-specific, and that every planet in the 3I won't be the same.

No, but I suspect that a local area will arive on a standard. I also
suspect given the low cost of freight and passenger transport in Traveller,
a local area is going to be quite large (and Traveller passenger costs are
low, once you drop the silly Cr 2000 'life support' charge - and a bunk or
shared small stateroom takes up a dton).

>Bloo writes:
>>
>>
>>The Imperial Soldier's Manual: A Guide to the Weapons, Equipment and
>>Tactics of Planetary Combat.
>>
>>
>>Sections include:
>>- --The Effective Use of Battledress

'Opening tin cans - why the 50mm homing grav rocket is your second-best
friend'

>>- --Cavalry: Grav Tanks and Ground Craft

'Forming Square on the Double'

>>- --Hostile Environments: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the
>>Corrosive Atmosphere.  (Alternatively, Army Men Can't Jump on Low-G
>>Planets If They Want to Survive.

'

>>- --The Successful Boarding Party, and How to Defend Against It (A section

'Grav Pong for non-Engineers'

>>- --Getting the Drop on your Opponent: How to Survive the Trip from Orbit
>>to Ground.

Also known as 'Why you buy your Navy Gunner buddies lots of drinks at the
highport'

>>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
>>Imperial Combat Knife.

'Appendix A : Effective battlefield uses of the Standard Imperial Survival
Ration'

>>- --Artillery:  Reading Maps Correctly is Fundamental.
>>- --Sophont Specific Tactics:  Why Turning Around When You See a Zhodani
>>Trooper In Front Of You May Save Your Life.

'101 Insults to induce rash behaviour by by your Aslan opposite number'

'Effective handling of Vargr Subordinates'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:08:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Maps, Maps, Maps

The response from my offer of World Hex maps was very active.
As a result, I've decided to just put these up and a web page
so that they can be had at any time.  It will also motivate me to
make them better.

So in a few days, I'll post a URL here where they will be available.

Who knows, I may even finish off the subsector and sector maps
I keep playing with.

My big long-term professional-quality goal is a poster-size sector
map that you could take to your local print shop (such as Kinko's
in the US) and have them print you one.  This will be blank, so that
you can customize either manually, or with a graphics program.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:16:53 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Fightercraft

Walt Smith wrote
>Gordon Horne and I were corresponding about IN Logistics, and it got
>me to thinking.
>
>How much do you have to spend on defending a cargo ship before
>a 50tn Strike Fighter can't cost-effectively hurt it?
>
>Sure, a 50tn fighter isn't going to do more than annoy a dreadnaught...
>but how many escorts does it take to keep the 50tn fighter away from
>the Fleet Support Squadron? And how many 50tn fighters, firing by
>squadron, does it take to blow up a Combat Stores ship?
>
>Sure, we could keep the cargo ships, tankers and such near the battle
>line - but that would place them in range of enemy spinal mount fire.
>One Destroyer moves to intercept ten fighters, the fighters split off
>by twos - Destroyer picks which two to intercept, the other eight
>fly around him.
>
>Sounds like you need fighter squadrons of your own as a screen, or
>your fleet will soon be all head and no tail.
>
>If nothing else, the presence of patrolling fighter squadrons increases
>the threat level of the contested system. Maybe you need to use
>higher-G Combat Support vessels, and put defensive armament on
>them - increasing the cost. Even if fighters do nothing but make you
>spend more on each ton of combat stores you bring with you, they
>can be cost effective.
>
>Does this make fightercraft viable fleet assets, or are they still
>(as someone here once put it), nothing but "ornaments"?
>

Well, you know my opinion Walt :->, but i'll repeat it here in public.

A high thrust cruiser or destroyer can cause just as much havoc in a supply
column as a squadron of fighters and has more uses. Ditto for a swarm of
Hoshisame gun sloops or similar. Also, carriers are more vulnerable than
cruisers because they have dedicated volume and surface area to fighters
which aren't necessarily around in a fight and aren't that effective
against ships of the line anyway.

Present day fighters are 26x to 50x as fast as present day warships. Attack
planes are 12x to 34x as fast. With radar horizons and the like a fighter
can cross a target's engagement zone in as little as five minutes.

Traveller fighters operate in a frictionless environment so velocity
differences
are highly dependent on tatics. Versus combat hulls, Traveller fighters
usually don't have better than a 2x acceleration advantage. Versus slow
cargo hulls and the like, 6x. And there are no radar horizons in space. It
will be a fight in and a fight out.

The pre-flight naval equivalent of the fighter was the PT boat or torpedo
destroyer. IMHO these are the appropriate "fighter" in Traveller: small,
move manuverable, slighty faster. i.e. Hoshisame gun sloops, SDBs and the
like. Base groups of them at rocks that don't rate a cruiser and use them
to harrass the enemy rear.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:13:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: re : Naval Logistics 

> >I'll bet every Imperial ship has microfiche
> >engineering diagrams of every module, widget and sub-assembly on
> >board. Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
> >you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
> >like it is on the far side of Corridor. You don't have it, Depot makes
> >it. You bring a lot of _Shoshone_ class Destroyers into Depot's
> >sector, Depot will probably start churning out spare parts for them
> >as soon as possible - just to be ready.
> 
> Personally, I'd use a small stand-alone fiber-optic computer with an
> independant battery backup, as the microfiche is still power-dependant. On
> the other hand, I have this image of a Vilani engineer looking up the specs
> while cranking the handle to produce the power to run the microfiche lamp ....

My engineer characters always shopped around for a memclip for their laptops 
with this engineering data.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:40:21 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: re : Naval Logistics

>>But you know the details of the system you're fighting in, and star systems
>>are _big_, _empty_ places. Seize a remote rock or comet and mine it. If
>>combat force levels in system are roughly equal, the enemy won't have time
>>to seek out and harass your support element.
>
>This doesnt work with the very long Traveller sensor ranges. A Type S scout
>is very cheap, and a dozen of them can scout out a system for anomolies in
>days, especially if those anomolies are designed to support 50kton
>battlewagons.
>
How long are Traveller sensor ranges? I dug a couple of books out of the
closet when this discussion got going and i was surprised at how _short_
the listed sensor ranges are, especially given that even a large ship can
be a very small target in a star system.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:37:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: [TTL] interesting web site spotting:

	I found an interesting new web-site about fusion power at:

http://www.pfc.mit.edu/ldx/index.html

	It's a new kind of magnetic confinement using a levitated 
superconducting dipole.  It also includes a cool web-cam of a "levitating 
cheerio" and links to stuff about magnetic levitation in general.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:35:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Battledress, etc.

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> wrote:

> This is very simular to a wish list I've been scratching out on my Palm:
>
>Military book w/ sections on
>	Navy
>	Marines
>	Army
>	Scouts

And it's not a million miles from the forthcoming 101st Spaceborne from BITS.

Dom (no I don't have a firm release date yet)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:40:02 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Lost Legions

Alvin Plummer saith thus:
>I was reading a brief article on how a lost 
>Roman expedition to Central Asia ended up 
>settling in China: aparently even today a particular
>village has Latin features, and maintain some Roman
>customs.

Alvin is referring to the legendary village sometimes called Li Jien (Legion)
in Western China. I have read a novel devoted to this subject, in which a
deranged emperor orders a disgraced Legion to "March East" and it makes it all
the way to China.

Another version has the survivors of Cannae taking service with the Parthians
as mercenaries, and gradually working their way west. 

Another version is detailed in David Drake's Ranks of Bronze...(I think).

Loren Wiseman

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:57:49 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Game

My campaign is on hold for a short while.   I have a teenager that decided
that she needed more of Mom and Dad's time.  Having said that, I intend to
kick off a new game in the Spinward Marches in a few months.  This is after
we get the kid back into school and see how she handles it.  I will let you
know in private email what the scoop is as soon as I can get a handle on it.
BTW, I'm in Waltham and will be here for the next decade at least.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Game


>
>
>Gr1zzly1@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I am looking for a trav game in the north shore of mass. I am kind of
rusty
>> and havn't played in years.
>
>Well, I'm in Boston proper and can also play.  IIRC, Thom Harris and Peter
>Brenton have a compaign going, though I understand Peter is full up.  Don't
>know about Thom.
>
>Bloo
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:54:50 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Emperor's List request...

I wonder: can anyone here email me a copy of the
Emperor's List: ie birthdates/deathdates, 
and years of reign of the Emperor's from
Cleon to Strephon?

I know it's in one of the Library Data book's, 
but most of that information I can get from the net.
Indeed, this time around I hope to restrict 
the $$$ I spend on old Traveller material.  

[GURPS: Traveller is supposed to reprint
much of the Lost Datafiles...]

But the lack of the list of Emperor's is very
restricting, impeding me from writing
even half-sensibly on much of the Imperium's
history.

If this list could be put on a web page, 
even better!

Thanks,

Alvin Plummer
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:07:37 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress, etc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:54 PM
Subject: Battledress, etc.


>Subject:
>            Battledress, etc.
>       Date:
>            Sat, 01 Aug 1998 02:09:12 -0400
>      From:
>            Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>        To:
>            traveller@MPGN.COM
> References:
>            1
>
>
>
>
>I'm really enjoying the discussion here concerning high-tech combat,
>infantry, battle-dress or not, grav tanks, etc., etc.  It seems to me
>that this is a prime topic for development into a marketable product.  I
>
>think we need a "The Influence of Battledress on Upon History" to pinch
>a title from Mahan.  Although the whole topic of Planetary combat is
>really what I'm thinking of.
>
>The Imperial Soldier's Manual: A Guide to the Weapons, Equipment and
>Tactics of Planetary Combat.
>
>Sections include:
>--The Effective Use of Battledress
>--Cavalry: Grav Tanks and Ground Craft
>--Hostile Environments: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the
>Corrosive Atmosphere.  (Alternatively, Army Men Can't Jump on Low-G
>Planets If They Want to Survive.
>--The Successful Boarding Party, and How to Defend Against It (A section
>
>for the Imperial Marine).
>--Getting the Drop on your Opponent: How to Survive the Trip from Orbit
>to Ground.
>--When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
>Imperial Combat Knife.
>--Artillery:  Reading Maps Correctly is Fundamental.
>--Sophont Specific Tactics:  Why Turning Around When You See a Zhodani
>Trooper In Front Of You May Save Your Life.
>
>
Ok.. I think I'd open up the striker II mini's and come up with some
probility stuies on all the above mentioned Items and put it in some kinda
webpage for everyone .

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:06:58 -7
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: "The King" of Traveller Chat

Hello!

For those of you who missed our last chat session, shame on you. 

Elvis was briefly sighted on #traveller last week. He stayed only a 
few minutes, contributing his thoughts on Milieu 0, before 
continuing his series of late night appearances at Quickie Marts 
across Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas.

For those of you who weren't there, you'll never know if this was 
true or not, will you?  For the rest of us, its our little secret. :-)

Anyways, in celebration (such as it is) of a 300 point drop today in 
the Dow Jones Industrial Average, this week's topic will be:

"Finance in the Third Imperium"

The emphasis will be on extrapolating from Traveller's background 
as well as its Trade and Commerce rules to try to create the basis 
for further adventures in the Third Imperium of an economic nature.

Really, it won't be as dreary as it sounds.  Trust me (he says, 
while palming the dagger).  :-)

Join us on Undernet at #traveller
Thursday, August 6, 1998, 6 PM PDT, 9 PM EDT.

See you there,
Stu
Stuart L. Dollar                sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Published Game Designer, Frustrated Novelist
"Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:06:58 -7
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Traveller Material

On 4 Aug 98, at 16:21, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> So, you'd recommend buying the Pilot's Guide..., if I found it?  And
> what would be in it, if I bought it? ;->

It's basically a subsector guide to Drexilthar/Reavers Deep in CT 
era.  World writeups on every world in the sector, politics, current 
situation, etc.  Written and Illustrated by the Keith brothers.  Well 
worth it if you can find it for a reasonable deal.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar                sdollar@goodnet.com
- ---------------------------------------------------
Published Game Designer, Frustrated Novelist
"Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:32:18 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@wavefront.com>
Subject: Re: Hello from Minnesota

> Subsector I of Empty Quarter sector
> WPC Duluth, Mn = X468485
Having vacationed around Superior, Duluth should
rate a much better port than X.  Now, if there was
some UWP digit for tempeture.......

BTW, I've recently relocated to the Twin Cities myself,
and am also interested in finding a game.

Mark

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #713
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, August 5 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 714



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Game
Re: Naval Logistics
Re: Naval Logistics
A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Lost Legions
Adventure Senario: The Littlest MegaCorp
Re: Lost Legions
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Jumpspace and Frames of Reference (semi-long)
Re Greetings from minnisota
Re Fighters in Traveller
Jumpspace and Frames of Reference
Exothermic Hell, Part II
Re: Lost Legions
Re: Round pegs and square holes
Re: re : Naval Logistics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:30:02 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Game

I woul like to lurk.  Please use the Addy crathburn@hotmail.com.

> Right now, I'm full up & starting my waiting list.  Lemme know when you get
> your Yahoo address so we can set you up as a lurker.
>
> Keven
>
> --
> ==============================================================================
>           http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
> ==============================================================================
>  "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
>   the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
>   Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance



- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:53:23 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Naval Logistics

>How long are Traveller sensor ranges? I dug a couple of books out of the
>closet when this discussion got going and i was surprised at how _short_
>the listed sensor ranges are, especially given that even a large ship can
>be a very small target in a star system.


It depends on the system you are using. The newer -- and I'm told, more
realistic -- versions (including the legendary Definitive Sensor Rules) make
ships easy to see a long way out.

The DSRs can be found at:

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:00:01 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Naval Logistics

>How long are Traveller sensor ranges? I dug a couple of books out of the
>closet when this discussion got going and i was surprised at how _short_
>the listed sensor ranges are, especially given that even a large ship can
>be a very small target in a star system.


More recent (and I'm told, more realistic) versions of Traveller make it
pretty easy to see ships waaayyy out. One to look at on the 'Net -- Bruce
Alan Macintosh's DSR -- can be found at:

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/sensor.rules.html

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:48:59 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: A few responses to Walt Smith

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:06:58 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....

Just a few cutaway's...

>That's why each sector devotes an entire *star system* - sometimes
>more than one - to fleet support. 

 Yeah, *MY* kind of Imperium!

Now, many depot systems may have low populations, or even low tech - 
but that's just the "permament residents".  Base personnel & 
contractors should number in the ten's of million's, I'd guess.

>Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
>you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
>like it is on the far side of Corridor. 

And of course, the Vilani discovered the supremacy
of microfiche over all other forms of long-term
data storage long ago. 

( if information density and decent  lifespan is your goal: if 
long-term data survival & integrity is what you want, 
embossing the information on diamond slabs
might be perferrable.  Widely used for holy religious work's
and geneological tree's for nobles - anything where cost is
irrevelant, and information survival paramount.

Cutaway to...

   The escorted visitor enter's Liinirganu Citiadel, the traditional
   stronghold of the famed Liinirganu house of Aramis subsector.
   Her hair and clothes carefully tailored to meet Vilani stadards 
   which were ancient when the Pharaoh's ruled, she glided down
   the pulsing, swirling corridor to meet her betrothed for 
   Gurirugudegammaduu, the traditional third meeting before 
   the actual marriage ceremony.

   As she strode toward's the veiled archway, the fractal pattern 
   began to hum on a subvocal level, shaping themselves into
   recognizable forms.  Women giving birth to children, small
   ship's landing on virgin worlds, a very old man kneeling before
   a Flag Emperor, a citydome growing like a flower under 
   a poisonous sky.  

   The woman part's the veil.  A round room, 20 meter's in diameter,
   covered with sunlight.  Yes, *sunlight*, as warm and rich as if she
   was standing under Vilani's sun, over 250 light years away. To
   her left and her right stand's a heartbreakingly beautiful
   tower's of pure diamond, sparkling with the gilded names of the
   ancestors, framed by Diswark veined marble.  Her escort whisper's 
   her to stand still,  and 10 people, 5 men and 5 women, entered 
   the room wearing House robes. 

Heh.  The sheer cost of these diamond slabs and the expensive, beautiful 
artwork that tends to be added to them must be astonishing.)

Walter Smith, have you ever considered a career with the AAB?

* * * * * * * * * *
>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:56:06 -0400
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Imperial Envelope

>Since I can't imagine a Sector Duke undertaking 
>a project like this merely to go farther than anyone
>else has, 

Blast, you mean we have to stay within a *BUDGET*?
Where's your Spirit of Adventure?

Anyway's, thank's for the corrections: that's
what the TML is supposed to work!  And
deep-space scouting missions is my favouite
thing about traveller, but I don't know enough 
science to do it properly.   

>If you want to go farther, set maximum distance as
>your goal and send a flotilla of scout-variant
>Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, with Jump-5
>support ships. The Jump-2 vessels you've been
>talking about aren't designed to be jump-space
>greyhounds, they're designed to carry research
>teams to far-off worlds - no point in choosing
>standard IISS craft if you're not going to stop
>and eat the daisies along the way.

For my little expedition, I want to eat the daisies once 
I get to  where I want to go, not en-route.  Ergo, jump-2 scout's
with jump-3 scout tender's, travelling Battle Rider style.
I guess it's the information I expect to recieve, and how time-
sensitive it is, that would determine if I want Jump-5 ship's 
or not.  (IE: Avery's expedition with the Zhodani in TNE was
probably Jump-5)

>Except for the jump drives you brought with you, no one
>"out there" has FTL travel...that we know of.

Fair enough, speaking for the Standard Universe, of
course....

>Subject: re: Words to Live By

>In the Third Imperium, for example, the personal
>power of the Emperor is only constrained by
>limits of communication and traditions - as Lucan's
>executions and imprisonments, and the institution
>of the Imperial Writ show. There are too many people
>in the Imperium who are effectively above the law. 

>Walt Smith

Truth.

However, 1) all government's are self-limited
and 2) all government's have a tendency to
strain at those limits.  This is true even of
legalistic theocracies, when the priesthood start's
to reinterpret the Law to suit themselves.

The point isn't the Rule of Law - the Law 
is only a protection as long as the ruler's
have the integrity to interpret the Law
as intended.  If the ruler's and the citizen's
have a basic integrity not to trample on justice, then
the written Law is not necessary: a more flexible,
organic Tradition is the best tool for organizing
societies.  

Give me a society of noble, honourable people,
and the Law merely get's in the way, a rigid and 
very clumsy tool to rule 11,000 worlds (unlike,
say, Tradition).  Give me a ruling class 
of corrupt, devious liar's, and all the Law's and 
all the Court's will not help you.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:44:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

- -----Original Message-----
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM <TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 8:45 PM
Subject: Lost Legions


>Alvin Plummer saith thus:
>>I was reading a brief article on how a lost
>>Roman expedition to Central Asia ended up
>>settling in China: aparently even today a particular
>>village has Latin features, and maintain some Roman
>>customs.
>
>Alvin is referring to the legendary village sometimes called Li Jien
(Legion)
>in Western China. I have read a novel devoted to this subject, in which a
>deranged emperor orders a disgraced Legion to "March East" and it makes it
all
>the way to China.
>
>Another version has the survivors of Cannae taking service with the
Parthians
>as mercenaries, and gradually working their way west.
>
>Another version is detailed in David Drake's Ranks of Bronze...(I think).
>
>Loren Wiseman


I believe that Andre' Norton did a novel, (Star Ranger?) that was based on a
version of this. In the novel, supposedly following the historical pattern,
a Sub-sector governor, in an effort to rid himself of the pesky remainder of
the Imperial military, ordered them to extend the Imperial map. They may
have been looking for lost colonies. At any rate the loyal officers boarded
their ships and set off, traveling ever further until their ships simply
wore out!
There was more to the story, but it's been years since I read it last. If I
ever get the rest of my books unpacked I'll have to look it up now. It may
have some scenario ideas, most of her juvinile slanted books seem to have a
good angle to use against... err, to amuse players with.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:54:55 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Adventure Senario: The Littlest MegaCorp

(Ripped from the headlines - well, 
 the first article in "Barron's" Aug 3/98, 
 and modified to fit Traveller)

*******

From the article "SelimCorp Skirt's the Edge", from
_StarTrader Monthly Datazine_,  90-1114

"Some sagas never end.  Take SelimCorp, LIC.  The little 
Regina company od dubious parantage, a checkered and
litigation-strewn past, but with apparently perpetual supply of
big plans, a "revolutionary" low-temperature artigrav cell,
high-prices industrial additives, even lanthium - recently
persuaded both the Regina (subsector) and the
Sector-wide corporate court's to give it a new lease on life.
In so doing, it overcame the objections of the Imperial Securities
and Exchange Commission (ISEC), which less than 20 day's
earlier filed Domain securities-fraud charges against the company 
and it's noble backer, Sir Mustapha Selim.

<snip>

Between mid-1111 and early 1112, their shares rose spectacularily
in the Spinward Marches Bourse (SMB), from 5 Cr. to a high of 
38 Cr. , but it's bubble burst in mid-1112 after the Kirga Network
[an association of top financial news agencies, equivelant to the
Wall Street Journal] reported that the Ministry of Justice: Securities
Department was looking into the possible involvement of two convicted 
stock swindlers in the stock's ascent, and the suspicious nature
of the company's funding.... 

Sir Mustapha Selim is apparently still under investigation 
by Regina system's Serious Fraud Office...."

*******

Sir Mustapha is a long, lean man in his fifties, looking
every inch of the truly regal noble.  He is the main driving
force of SelimCorp, spending his time raising new capital
from interested corporations and wealthy families.
His wife, Dame Feura Selim, actually handles
day-to-day operations.  A small, hard, round woman
in her forties, she married Mustapha as a step up in 
respectability, but work's 14-hour trying to make end's meet
and pay off debt's so Selim can chase his dreams.
For now, she refuses to have children.

Through fast talk, wideranging travel and a few
lucky moves, Selim Family has managed to build up 
SelimCorp, LIC as a truly wide-ranging business, with 
some small operation or threadbare office in every 
sector of the Imperium.  SelimCorp
continually petitions to be considered a MegaCorp 
(it can be found in every Sector, after all) and is 
regularily laughed off or ignored.  Regardless, 
Sir Selim is determined to get to "get the respect 
he deserves" , and is alway's looking
for the Big Break....

In addition to his network of tiny offices - run out of back alley's
and post boxes across the Imperium - he also has 16 
small traders, a scout ship, and a "Family Holding" 
of a small fish farm, a two-acre fief, and a 2 MCr  
GravCarrier that serves as his home.  Besides
the employees of SelimCorp, Sir Mustapha has 
two liege-servants that will serve his family
till death, but the servant's children have already decided
that they aren't interested in following their father's
footstep's.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 00:12:25 -0500
From: "The Baxters" <baxter@midusa.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

> Michael D. Peters said:
> 
> I believe that Andre' Norton did a novel, (Star Ranger?) that was
based on a
> version of this. In the novel, supposedly following the historical
pattern,
> a Sub-sector governor, in an effort to rid himself of the pesky
remainder of
> the Imperial military, ordered them to extend the Imperial map. They
may
> have been looking for lost colonies. At any rate the loyal officers
boarded
> their ships and set off, traveling ever further until their ships
simply
> wore out!
> There was more to the story, but it's been years since I read it
last. If I
> ever get the rest of my books unpacked I'll have to look it up now.
It may
> have some scenario ideas, most of her juvinile slanted books seem to
have a
> good angle to use against... err, to amuse players with.

I think they were scouts but I can't remember exactly why they
were sent out.  Their ship crashed on a planet that they later
found out was the home world (Terra, that is) and all the known
human races left for the stars from there.  I vaguely recall something
about the alien races not being accepted in the new order but
don't remember for sure.

If someone does develop a senario from this I would be interested
in seeing it.  :-)

baxter@midusa.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:21:49 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> Due to the supremacy clause of the Warrant of Restoration in Article
> I (Milieu 0, p. 83), "No interference with local law or custom is
> contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict
> with imperial law.", all Imperial crimes would essentially be
> incorporated into the laws of all member worlds.  Thus, piracy,
> slavery, etc., cannot be legal on any member world.  I think the same
> applies to kidnapping and all other Imperial crimes.

Why is kidnapping considered an Imperial crime? Is it important for the
wellbeing of the Imperium? I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a
sophont, rules of war,a shitload of crimes vs nobles are the only Imperial
laws that hold on the planets themselves. Piracy btw is probably not
covered as only piracy in space should be worthy of Imperial interest. If a
planet (Wurzburg/Glisten) allows piracy on the planet I don't think the
Imperium would bother.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 00:18:05 -0900
From: WILLIAM F HOSTMAN <ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference (semi-long)

Peter Newman and I were discussing Jumpspace, vector retention during jump, and how to get around the frames of reference physics problem, and how to eliminate the retention of system vectors.

Comment
ive to the frame of reference of the jump bubble. At jump exit, you are pasted into the frame of reference of the target system, inertia intact. This vector should be measured as a vector based upon co
t so that this course will aim you at prometheus, or away from prometheus, or any angle relative to prometheus; your vector, however, Relative to the line Prometheus->Proxima, will be 500 mps relative 
ve to the heading to the next most significant body.

	EG: situation same as above. Position at jump exit is 1,281,000 km out on radial 60 degrees from Terra -> Luna line, you will exit jump on a line 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:15:06 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@uaa.alaska.edu>
Subject: Re Greetings from minnisota

<imp mode>
Solomani Rim, of course (DUH!) The Sol Subsector, World is Terra.
</imp mode>
<Sorry, couldn't Resist>

>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:11:12 -0400
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Hello from Minnesota
>
>Kewl! Which sector is that in?
>Thom

[snip]
>>
>>Is there ANYONE at all that plays Traveller (any incarnation) in Minnesota,
>>hopefully near Duluth?  I realize that we're low tech out here in the
>>boonies, but there's gotta be someone nearby!
>>


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:39:00 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@uaa.alaska.edu>
Subject: Re Fighters in Traveller

Gordon Horne Writes:
>
>Traveller fighters operate in a frictionless environment so velocity
>differences
>are highly dependent on tatics. Versus combat hulls, Traveller fighters
>usually don't have better than a 2x acceleration advantage. Versus slow
>cargo hulls and the like, 6x. And there are no radar horizons in space. It
>will be a fight in and a fight out.
>

Gordon, you seem not to have seen the wonderfull FF&S designs with fighters
up to 18 G's. If the increased compensator capability rules made it to
FF&S2, it would be feasable, at TL15, to have compensatiopn on the order of
10 or 15 g's, plus the 6 of comfort for the pilot. While T-Plates may only
have 6G, HEPlaR and similar can easily generate short bursts of 18 or 20
G... well within the 6 percieved G limit for comfortable operation.  If you
add this to a T-Plate (Wasn't explicitly outlawed under FF&S 1), you can
get a cruising thrust of 4-6 G, plus boosters for combat giving you well
beyond that.

Such fighters can, and will, be capable of outmaneuvering, and changing
aspect qwuickly against, capitol ships. More along the lines of PT boats
than aircraft, but still 2-4x faster than capitol ships.

And, while there are no radar horizons, there is diminishing signature. And
there are HARMS... so active sensors could mean death of the sensor.
Bistatic systems would still have passive capabilities, but mono-static
systems eating HARMS can reduce a fleet to the "Mk. 1 Eyeball" [with a nod
to Phil and Ed for the term, borrowed from Space Opera]. There is much more
to a battlefield than just sensors and weapons and speed; the interlocking
nature of defense and countermeasure, for example, means most often your
ship will not be optimized to defend against your enemie's current
offensive tactical regime. And Vice Versa.

As to fighters, the best measure is that (under FF&S) you can build
fighters that, while they will be killed by a single hit, may not get hit
as often as the victim would like, and carry more firepower per Td than
comparable line vessels, and when hit will be overkilled... the reduction
in crew space vs weapons space is a benefit, especially for near-world
defenses. Carriers, if built right, still have considerable offensive
potential; the fighters should be tube launched, rather than external; the
surface area useage of the carrier should be commensureate with that of a
cruiser. By launching fighters prior to engagement, with the ability to
open/close ranges rapidly , allows probing the enemy fleet (albeit at
potentially great losses). The use of fighters also effectively multiplies
the surface area of the carrier for purtposes of area devoted to weapons.

Loading a first strike with HARMS (or equivalent) allows the first strike
to be a discardable wave; if sufficient target units lose sensors, commit
to battle. If too many sensor systems are still active, send another
long-range barrage of missile fire. Det lasers with HARM targeting can be
viscious. Expensive, but well worth it.

And yes, a Cruiser may be more useful for non-combat uses than a carrier
plus fighter group. However, the tactical differences are quite striking in
play (BL, especially, where ramparts really can take down big ships). But a
cruiser is an all or nothing combat commitment; a carrier might not be.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 00:29:54 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@uaa.alaska.edu>
Subject: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference

Peter Newman and I were discussing Jumpspace, vector retention during jump,
and how to get around the frames of reference physics problem, and how to
eliminate the retention of system vectors.

Commentary desired. Most of the idea is Peter's, I just worded part of it.

1) Jumpspace And Frames of Reference
	Your real-space vector is maintained while juping. This occurs
because jumpspace cuts you out of the frame of reference of the local star
system, but maintains your vector as an inertial vector relative to the
frame of reference of the jump bubble. At jump exit, you are pasted into
the frame of reference of the target system, inertia intact. This vector
should be measured as a vector based upon comparison to the line between
the two most significant gravity sources in the frame at current. So, if
you course is 500mps along a course parallel to the two most significant
sources, your course and vector will, upon exit, be  500mps parallel to the
line between the two most significant gravity sources at destination.
	EG: Leaving Terra/Sol. At 100 diameters from Terra, the two most
significant forces are Terra and Luna. So, if you are on a course 45
degrees clockwise off the line from Terra (most significant) to Luna
(Second Most Significant). When you jump to the neighboring system
Prometheus, which has a mainworld with no moons, the refence line is from
the planet to the star. So, your exit vector is 45 degrees clockwise from
the line from Prometheus to its primary, Proxima. You could set your
jump-out point so that this course will aim you at prometheus, or away from
prometheus, or any angle relative to prometheus; your vector, however,
Relative to the line Prometheus->Proxima, will be 500 mps relative  to
prometheus, on a direction 45 degrees clockwise from that line.

2) More frame tightening?
	I have used that jump entry end exit points are also in a position
relative to the most significant body, on a distance and heading from that
body identical at jump exit to the heading on jump entry, again relative to
the heading to the next most significant body.

	EG: situation same as above. Position at jump exit is 1,281,000 km
out on radial 60 degrees from Terra -> Luna line, you will exit jump on a
line of 60 degrees from the line Prometheus -> Proxima, at 1.281E6 km out,
with a heading of45 degrees relative to the line Prometheus -> Proixma, at
500 mps.

	Problem: This makes the "Bingo Jump" of TNE impossible.... If you
have a vector away from the origin world, you will have a vector away from
the destination world. Does encourage the minimization of vector prior to
jump, however.

3) Jump entry and exit versus time of jump
	Peter and I figure that jump exit points MUST be calculated to a
frame of reference centered upon the target world (or star, or other
massive body). This prevents the problem of targeting a world in a frame
centered upon the universe as a whole, where one's exit point needs to vary
over the + or - 17 hours from the normal 168 hours of jump. I figure that
the reference should be based upon the relationship of the most significant
gravity well of the target point, and probably, in order to give a
directional aspect, also relative to the second most significant gravity
well overlapping the point of jump.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:28:10 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Exothermic Hell, Part II

This exam question reminds me of one asked in a colloquium at my
university in chemistry:

If your knight stands at Al(uminum), which elements do you reach?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:15:40 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> Alvin Plummer saith thus:
> >I was reading a brief article on how a lost
> >Roman expedition to Central Asia ended up
> >settling in China: aparently even today a particular
> >village has Latin features, and maintain some Roman
> >customs.
>
> Alvin is referring to the legendary village sometimes called Li
> Jien (Legion) in Western China. I have read a novel devoted to
> this subject, in which a deranged emperor orders a disgraced
> Legion to "March East" and it makes it all the way to China.

So is that where the idea came from for the country  of  Regiment
on Tarsus (District 268) ... as detailed in  GDW's  Tarsus  boxed
set?

Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:19:08 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Round pegs and square holes

>>>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
>>>Imperial Combat Knife.
>
>'Appendix A : Effective battlefield uses of the Standard Imperial
>Survival Ration'

I have to admit I joined the splert brigade on this one, only I missed all
the elecrical equipment and managed to get coffee all over my note pad.

Please add a warning to the FAQ ....

	Please refrain from drinking or eating while reading the list.
	Failier to do so may cause major damage to any equipment in the
	imediate vaacinity.


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:40:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: re : Naval Logistics

In mail you write:

>>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>>Subject: Naval Logistics (was re: Round Peg....
>>
>>I'll bet every Imperial ship has microfiche
>>engineering diagrams of every module, widget and sub-assembly on
>>board. Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
>>you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
>>like it is on the far side of Corridor. You don't have it, Depot makes
>>it. You bring a lot of _Shoshone_ class Destroyers into Depot's
>>sector, Depot will probably start churning out spare parts for them
>>as soon as possible - just to be ready.
>
> Personally, I'd use a small stand-alone fiber-optic computer with an
> independant battery backup, as the microfiche is still power-dependant. On
> the other hand, I have this image of a Vilani engineer looking up the specs
> while cranking the handle to produce the power to run the microfiche lamp 
> ....

Actually, there are such things as "solar powered" microfiche readers.
They were popular with the survivalist community in the 70s. All you
need is a reasonably sunny day (uses mirrors and lenses).

If you are at a reasonable distance from a star you can do it that way.
Or you can get a nice *bright* light source by having a oxy-hydrogen
flame playing on a piece of limestone (that's how those monster
spotlights they have at movie premieres and various "grand openings"
work. The amount of oxygen and hydrogen required to power a light for a
reader is pretty darn miniscule. 

Y'know, give the large amounts of hydrogen on most ships, and the ned
for oxygen for life-support, oxy-hydrogen powered "limelights" might
make a better backup light source than battery powered lights!

Among other things, they have the advantage of *not creating electrical
or magnetic fields that could interfere with unshielded circuitry being
repaired, and as long as you have protective covers over any ports,
there'd be no indication from the outside that the ship wasn't a dead
hulk (except for the IR output, but there are lots of reasons why the
ship could stay hot for long periods after being knocked out. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #714
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, August 5 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 715



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: re : Naval Logistics
Re: Round pegs and square holes
Re: GeoSync
Re: Maps, Maps, Maps
Re: Lost Legions
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
IDP (was Imperial Standards)
JTAS mailing covers
Re: Another question: Agriculture
Re: Maps, Maps, Maps
Lag Time (was: GeoSync)
Fighters
Battledress Breaker
Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
The Dean Files
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Spreadsheet for the Definitive Sensor Rules?
Re: Fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:55:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: re : Naval Logistics

In mail you write:

>>>But you know the details of the system you're fighting in, and star systems
>>>are _big_, _empty_ places. Seize a remote rock or comet and mine it. If
>>>combat force levels in system are roughly equal, the enemy won't have time
>>>to seek out and harass your support element.
>>
>>This doesnt work with the very long Traveller sensor ranges. A Type S scout
>>is very cheap, and a dozen of them can scout out a system for anomolies in
>>days, especially if those anomolies are designed to support 50kton
>>battlewagons.
>>
> How long are Traveller sensor ranges? I dug a couple of books out of the
> closet when this discussion got going and i was surprised at how _short_
> the listed sensor ranges are, especially given that even a large ship can
> be a very small target in a star system.

Those ranges are from *before* T4, where we got some real world data
from one of our resident astronomers about what *current* sensors can
do. (They work so well that it's doubtful that therte's much room left
for improvement!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:59:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Round pegs and square holes

In mail you write:

>>>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
>>>Imperial Combat Knife.
>
> 'Appendix A : Effective battlefield uses of the Standard Imperial Survival
> Ration'

Isn't that against the Deneb Conventions? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:02:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GeoSync

In mail you write:

> You mention signal lag, etc.  Is there a chart, or does someone have a 
> chart made up that reflects the general comm/signal lag from the 100 
> diameter limit to the highport (or the beacon/navsat/downport or 
> whatever you use for the starport authority)?  I'm looking for something 
> (even the formula would work and I can make up my own chart) that I can 
> use for when the ship precipitates out of jump at a size 4 world, then a 
> size 9 world, then a size S world, etc. and the sensors/comm 
> suite/transponders squawk their arrival.  
>
> Maybe just a chart with representative distances and signal lag time in 
> seconds....
>
> I'd like to know (or know how to figure) the seconds or minutes it takes 
> to "have a conversation" or computer communication with the authorities.  
> Thanks...

Light (and radio, etc) travels at 299,792.458 km/sec. 

So for "one way" travel, you simply divide the distance in km by 300,000
to get the time in seconds for things like passive sensors noticing
that a ship has emerged from jump. 

For things like active sensors, or conversations, you divide by 150,000.
(or you double the time you got in the previous step). 

For example, if a ship emerges at 450,000 km then it'll take 1.5
seconds for the gravity pulse from the emergence to reach the planet.
It'll also take 1.5 seconds for a radar pulse from the planet to reach
the ship and *another* 1.5 secoinds for the echo to return, for a total
of 3 seconds (but if the radar has been sending out regular pulses, you
may get lucky and get a return from a pulse that was sent out 1.5
seconds *before* the ship emerged and got to the ship's position just
in time to bounce off it). 

But when they contact traffic control, it'd take 1.5 seconds for their
message to get to traffic control. And assuming traffic control replies
*immediately*, it'll take another 1.5 seconds for the replie to get to
them, meaning that they'll hear the reply 3 seconds after asking the
question. 

As I recall, the "size code" is a the radius of the planet, in km.
Therefore: 

(c=300,000,000 m/s)
                          lag             lag
size	100 diam	one way		two way
- ----	------------	---------	----------
 S	   20,000 km	 .067 sec	  .133 sec
 1	  200,000 km	 .667 sec	 1.333 sec
 2	  400,000 km	1.333 sec	 2.667 sec
 3	  600,000 km	2.000 sec	 4.000 sec
 4	  800,000 km	2.667 sec	 5.333 sec
 5	1,000,000 km	3.333 sec	 6.667 sec
 6	1,200,000 km	4.000 sec	 8.000 sec
 7	1,400,000 km	4.667 sec	 9.333 sec
 8	1,600,000 km	5.333 sec	10.667 sec
 9	1,800,000 km	6.000 sec	12.000 sec
10	2,000,000 km	6.667 sec	13.333 sec


Here's the same table, only using c=299,792,458 m/s

                          lag             lag
size	100 diam	one way		two way
- ----	------------	---------	----------
 S	   20,000 km	 .067 sec	  .133 sec
 1	  200,000 km	 .667 sec	 1.334 sec
 2	  400,000 km	1.334 sec	 2.669 sec
 3	  600,000 km	2.001 sec	 4.003 sec
 4	  800,000 km	2.669 sec	 5.337 sec
 5	1,000,000 km	3.336 sec	 6.671 sec
 6	1,200,000 km	4.003 sec	 8.006 sec
 7	1,400,000 km	4.670 sec	 9.340 sec
 8	1,600,000 km	5.337 sec	10.674 sec
 9	1,800,000 km	6.004 sec	12.008 sec
10	2,000,000 km	6.671 sec	13.343 sec

As you can see, it doesn't make a lot of difference. :-)

And as you can imagine, once the lag time gets up around 15-30 seconds,
you pretty much give up on holding conversations. You just dump data at
them and when their reply arrives, you fill in any details you'd
overlooked. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:39:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Maps, Maps, Maps

In mail you write:

> The response from my offer of World Hex maps was very active.
> As a result, I've decided to just put these up and a web page
> so that they can be had at any time.  It will also motivate me to
> make them better.
>
> So in a few days, I'll post a URL here where they will be available.
>
> Who knows, I may even finish off the subsector and sector maps
> I keep playing with.
>
> My big long-term professional-quality goal is a poster-size sector
> map that you could take to your local print shop (such as Kinko's
> in the US) and have them print you one.  This will be blank, so that
> you can customize either manually, or with a graphics program.

*My* eventual goal is to be able to display the entire galaxy with some
sort of overlay, and as you move the cursor around, an info box on the
side of the screen gives you the info about that region. Click on it
and if there's finer detailed info, you'd drop down to that level. Drop
down another level or so and the screen would be displaying sectors,
still with the "info box" off to the side. Click on them and you drop
to sector maps divided into hexex, click again and you've got an entire
hex on the screen and can select planets etc for more info. 

And so on until you hit the floor plan for the bar the characters are
in. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:44:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

In mail you write:

>> Michael D. Peters said:
>> 
>> I believe that Andre' Norton did a novel, (Star Ranger?) that was
>> based on a version of this.

"Star Rangers" was the hardback. The Ace paperback was "The Last
Planet". 

>> In the novel, supposedly following the historical pattern, a
>> Sub-sector governor, in an effort to rid himself of the pesky
>> remainder of the Imperial military, ordered them to extend the
>> Imperial map.

It was the remnants of the Patrol. 

>> They may have been looking for lost colonies. At any rate the loyal
>> officers boarded their ships and set off, traveling ever further
>> until their ships simply wore out!

>> There was more to the story, but it's been years since I read it
>> last. If I ever get the rest of my books unpacked I'll have to look
>> it up now.  It may have some scenario ideas, most of her juvinile
>> slanted books seem to have a good angle to use against... err, to
>> amuse players with.

Norton's SF (as opposed to her fantasy) has lots of good ideas for
Traveller. Matter of fact, if I had the money and experience, I'd try
to get her to agree to a "sourcebook" for SF RPGs based on her books.
Heck, do another on Witchworld and the like for the Fantasy buffs.

Loren? Any chance SJ Games would be interested in doing a Norton
"sourcebook" for Gurps? I'd *love* to have the "official" word on her
alien races, organizations like the Patrol, Free Traders and the Guild.
Ditto for the various Forerunner artifacts. And all the neat planets
she came up with. 

The Dipple would be a great place to have characters start out from. :-)

> I think they were scouts but I can't remember exactly why they were
> sent out. 

"Rangers" which seems to be somewhere between her "First-In Scouts" and
Traveller Marines.

> Their ship crashed on a planet that they later found out was the home
> world (Terra, that is) and all the known human races left for the
> stars from there.  I vaguely recall something about the alien races
> not being accepted in the new order but don't remember for sure.

Bemmies (from BEM or "bug-eyed monster") were definitely second class
citizens. Something the Patrol didn't think much of.

> If someone does develop a senario from this I would be interested
> in seeing it.  :-)

Well, it wouldn't fit the standard Traveller universe at all, given the
base idea of Terra being long lost and half-forgotten, but there are
other possibilities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:57:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

In mail you write:

>>Why microfiche? So you can read it, even if the computer
>>you wrote it on is a rad-blasted pile of scrap and the nearest one
>>like it is on the far side of Corridor. 
>
> And of course, the Vilani discovered the supremacy
> of microfiche over all other forms of long-term
> data storage long ago. 
>
> ( if information density and decent  lifespan is your goal: if 
> long-term data survival & integrity is what you want, 
> embossing the information on diamond slabs
> might be perferrable.  Widely used for holy religious work's
> and geneological tree's for nobles - anything where cost is
> irrevelant, and information survival paramount.

Actually, diamond substrates aren't all that expensive to produce
*now*. And there are persistent rumors that there's *some* way to
"dope" diamond so as to make useful semiconductors from it. 

In which case "scrap" diamond from the semiconductor industry would be
*cheap*. And in *any* case, within a few TLs of *now* synthetic diamond
in any reasonable size chunk or slab will be cheap.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:50:43 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: IDP (was Imperial Standards)

The issue of standards for starship componants was raised  in  my
Traveller campaign several years ago.  My solution was posted  to
my web site some months ago.  Check out ...

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/personal/traveller/idp.html

Regards PLST
http:/www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:43:19 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: JTAS mailing covers

Hi there,

Is there anyone who has early JTAS issues in their mailing covers (or an
exceptional memory!) who could answer the following question:

Three forms appear in 'The Best of JTAS' but not *in* any early issues.
Presumably they were on the mailing covers.  Does anyone know which issues
they appeared with?

The forms were:

IS Form 8
The standard Traveller world map flattened dodecahedron.

TAS Form 2
The  character  sheet  with  room  for  Personal  data and history, service
  history and psionic ability details and notes.

TAS Form 6
The standard subsector blank hex grid.


Any  info  gratefully  appreciated.  E-mail me off list if you'd rather and
  I'll summarize the replies if there's any other interest!

tc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:06:30 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Another question: Agriculture

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> I remember not too long ago someone had some figures agricultural
> production: the number of people per year a plot of land could
> support or something similar. Could anyone provide me with a
> pointer to a website that deals with this, or just give me the
> information via email?

Check out the colonial  economic  model  in  TNE's  World  Tamers
Handbook.  The section on agriculture has tables and  rules  that
say how much land, raw materials (pesticides, etc), capital goods
(tractors and stuff), a farm worker needs at each TL ... and  the
output.  It also covers the  quality V quantity  of  agricultural
output and non-food agricultural output (eg. textiles).

Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 05:41:59 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Maps, Maps, Maps

>*My* eventual goal is to be able to display the entire galaxy with some
>sort of overlay, and as you move the cursor around, an info box on the
>side of the screen gives you the info about that region. Click on it
>and if there's finer detailed info, you'd drop down to that level. Drop
>down another level or so and the screen would be displaying sectors,
>still with the "info box" off to the side. Click on them and you drop
>to sector maps divided into hexex, click again and you've got an entire
>hex on the screen and can select planets etc for more info. 
>
>And so on until you hit the floor plan for the bar the characters are
>in. :-)
>

This is exactly what my goal is too.  It's very similar to a project I 
worked on using the images and maps used by the gov't (can't remember 
the agency right now) to show the "region", then be able to change scale 
to zoom in, to eventually be looking at individually identified 
buildings....  And we could overlay the units that were there, and the 
logistical infrastructure of the area, complete with load-bearing and 
size limits, with through-put capability.  

Now if I could figure out how to get paid to work on stuff like that for 
fun work that would be great...



The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 05:50:53 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Lag Time (was: GeoSync)

Thanks to all who replied on my lagtime question.  That was very helpful 
and will give better roleplaying feel.

Size code is diameter in miles.  With what I've been given, I can figure 
them all out now.  Thanks again.

There was one comment that made the beacons/sat out at 10 diameters.  
That seems far to me, too far for a highport.  With the discussion of 
GeoSync for highports, some said that was too far out, and would suggest 
a lower altitude.  Approximately what distances are we talking?

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:57:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Fighters

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Fightercraft

>How much do you have to spend on defending a cargo ship before
>a 50tn Strike Fighter can't cost-effectively hurt it?

The first strategy is to allocate 10% of ship volume to surplus jump fuel,
allowing a rapid jump away from the fighter.

The second strategy is to have a number of grapples for fighters, and have
your fighters and their fighters duke it out at some distance from the convoy.

The third strategy is to arm each cargo ship with armament appropriate to
it's normal-space power surplus (cargo ships need a power output equal to
25 MW per 100t per jump number. High-jump low-gee ships tend to have a
lower power demand than this in normal space than this, which means you
only need to allocate space and mass to weapons, not to the power systems
to power these weapons), and put them in convoy. Ten 1000 dton cargo ships,
each with three sandcasters, three missile racks and a 250 MJ laser are
probably going to be able to deal with ten fighters, and the armament will
cost less than the fighters. Especially if the auxilaries are armed with
det-nuke warhead missiles, rather than civilian combustion-laser warhead
missiles. Fighters tend to be weak on anti-missile defenses.

The fourth strategy involves a dedicated escort bigger than n fighters can
handle. 50 dton fighters are not likely to have mil-spec nuke dampers or
mil-spec PAWs. A 50t fighter is unlikely to survive a single hit from a
16x2m PAW, and if the escort has thicker armour than a TL-max laser can
penetrate, then it is likely to be able to eventually disable a large
number of fighters before it runs out of it's multiple-redundant sensors or
surface-mounted radiators. The fighters, being small, are unlikely to have
thick armour, due to their poor surface area:volume ratio.

In essence all that fighters will achieve IMO is forcing the defenders to
adopt convoy, and probably be escorted by a couple of obsolete frigates.

Mind you, just forcing them to adopt convoy will be a signifigant
advantage, in that it reduces the effective amount of hauling capacity the
other side has available.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:01:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Battledress Breaker

OK.

I've been doing some thinking about the venerable Pelvic-Mounted Plasman
Pistol (1).

As a sidearm, it's fairly useless, having such a high recoil and all.

On the other hand, if you put it into a missile and add a target-seeker
guidance system (Cr 1000), then you have a fairly decent clam cracker.

Add in five kilos of grav plates (0.25 kN at TL10) and a kilo of batteries
to power them, and you have a weapon that should not only go like the
clappers but also do very bad things to BD equipped troops.

Total unit cost appears to be about KCr 4, total mass about ummm 10 kilos.
Range is goanna be pretty long, especially on 'cruise' mode, but I havent
done the precise numbers.

Ian Whitchurch

(1) Hisitorical note : The PMPP was a weapon designed by Kenji Schwartz,
one of the TML's finest demented mad scientists, with a side order of
linguistics and extra perversion to go. See the Contact Sayat webpage for
more details (just plug 'Sayat' into Lycos or similar).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:13:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference

In mail you write:

> 1) Jumpspace And Frames of Reference
>         Your real-space vector is maintained while juping. This occurs
> because jumpspace cuts you out of the frame of reference of the local star
> system, but maintains your vector as an inertial vector relative to the
> frame of reference of the jump bubble. At jump exit, you are pasted into
> the frame of reference of the target system, inertia intact. This vector
> should be measured as a vector based upon comparison to the line between
> the two most significant gravity sources in the frame at current. So, if
> you course is 500mps along a course parallel to the two most significant
> sources, your course and vector will, upon exit, be  500mps parallel to the
> line between the two most significant gravity sources at destination.
>         EG: Leaving Terra/Sol. At 100 diameters from Terra, the two most
> significant forces are Terra and Luna. So, if you are on a course 45
> degrees clockwise off the line from Terra (most significant) to Luna
> (Second Most Significant).

I suggest that you sit down and actually *calculate* the forces
generated on the ship by Terra, Luna, and Sol. If I recall correctly,
*Sol* will be the second strongest, if not the strongest (hint, the sun
exerts more "pull" on Luna than the Earth does!)

Also, I dislike this because it screws with too many conservation laws.

I think it's much simpler to just go with the idea that you were
travelling with a given speed in a direction (say 45 degrees clockwise
from coreward) relative to the planet you left. Add in the velocity
vectorts for the planet relative to the star and the star relative to
the galaxy. Plus the vectors for the destination star & planet. 

The result is your vector on exit, with respect to the target planet. 

It may *seem* more difficult, but it isn't. Not when you consider the
calculations you'd have to do to determine which the two strongest
sources were at departure and arrival. 

The vector addition is done rather easily with rulers, protractor and
paper. No *math* involved (except perhaps deciding how many inches or
cm each vector should be). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:22:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>> Due to the supremacy clause of the Warrant of Restoration in Article
>> I (Milieu 0, p. 83), "No interference with local law or custom is
>> contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict
>> with imperial law.", all Imperial crimes would essentially be
>> incorporated into the laws of all member worlds.  Thus, piracy,
>> slavery, etc., cannot be legal on any member world.  I think the same
>> applies to kidnapping and all other Imperial crimes.
>
> Why is kidnapping considered an Imperial crime? Is it important for the
> wellbeing of the Imperium? I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a
> sophont, rules of war,a shitload of crimes vs nobles are the only Imperial
> laws that hold on the planets themselves.

And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
for *their* purposes. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:48:31 -0400
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: The Dean Files

Hiya,
     Sorry, shifting priorities kept me away from the TML for a few weeks.
     The Dean Files was the name I coined for the web-version of the
collection of ships the tireless Rob Dean produced for MegaTraveller. They
were placed as part of an experiement in web-commerce I did a few years
ago. They were taken off-line a few months ago by the server administrator
because no-one had looked at them in six months. I couldn't think of a
counter-argument.
     I still have the data. If there is enough interest (6 private e-mail
replies) I will resurrect them and add them to the revamped CORE web-site
I'm working on.
     Cheers,
          Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:22:38 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>
>
> And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> for *their* purposes.

And how is that different from a job?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:16:21 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Spreadsheet for the Definitive Sensor Rules?

Has anyone created a spreadsheet for Bruce Macintosh's Definitive Sensor
Rules?  If so, I'd like a copy.  If not... well, that might be my next
project!  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:28:13
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighters

>From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@uaa.alaska.edu>
>Subject: Re Fighters in Traveller
>
>Gordon, you seem not to have seen the wonderfull FF&S designs with fighters
>up to 18 G's. If the increased compensator capability rules made it to
>FF&S2, it would be feasable, at TL15, to have compensatiopn on the order of
>10 or 15 g's, plus the 6 of comfort for the pilot. 
>

It didnt. Table 214 specifically states Max Compensation.

>While T-Plates may only
>have 6G, HEPlaR and similar can easily generate short bursts of 18 or 20
>G... well within the 6 percieved G limit for comfortable operation.  

Ummm, I wouldnt want my pilots to be pulling 6 gees for more than 10
seconds or so. Definitly not maneuvering at 6 gees over the compensators
for tens of minutes on end, which you tend to have to do to try and avoid
laser fire.

>If you
>add this to a T-Plate (Wasn't explicitly outlawed under FF&S 1), you can
>get a cruising thrust of 4-6 G, plus boosters for combat giving you well
>beyond that.

T-plates are no longer limited to 6 gees of thrust. It's compensators that
form your effective limit to maneuverability.

As far as I can tell, stacking forms of maneuver drive is not only legal,
but encouraged.

>
>Such fighters can, and will, be capable of outmaneuvering, and changing
>aspect qwuickly against, capitol ships. More along the lines of PT boats
>than aircraft, but still 2-4x faster than capitol ships.

And completely unable to harm anything with halfway decent armour, as
fighters do not have enough length to mount effective particle accelerators
or meson weapons.

Thus, they are limited to lasers and missiles. Lasers are limited in
megajoulage to TL*50, leading to warships with armour thick enough to shrug
this off, and missiles. Missiles are not particularily effective against
warships - nuke dampers, sandcasters, point defense lasers and
counter-missiles all give them fits.

Fighters also make poor missile platforms as they dont have enough volume
for reloads, and each fighter has to have a computer, t-plates, sensors
etc, which makes them not cost effective compared to standard warships.

>
>And, while there are no radar horizons, there is diminishing signature. And
>there are HARMS... so active sensors could mean death of the sensor.

Nope. Active sensors are too short range to use effectivly. Most everything
in serious combat will use passive sensors.

ARMs are a targetting method. They have all the same problems with point
and area defense that standard missiles do.

>As to fighters, the best measure is that (under FF&S) you can build
>fighters that, while they will be killed by a single hit, may not get hit
>as often as the victim would like, and carry more firepower per Td than
>comparable line vessels, 

Yes, but they cant deliver that firepower in large enough lumps to hurt
real warships. The alpha strike of a fighter sucks. Given their poor
surface area:volume ratio, their armour will also tend to be thin.

>and when hit will be overkilled... the reduction
>in crew space vs weapons space is a benefit, especially for near-world
>defenses. Carriers, if built right, still have considerable offensive
>potential; the fighters should be tube launched, rather than external; the
>surface area useage of the carrier should be commensureate with that of a
>cruiser. By launching fighters prior to engagement, with the ability to
>open/close ranges rapidly , allows probing the enemy fleet (albeit at
>potentially great losses). The use of fighters also effectively multiplies
>the surface area of the carrier for purtposes of area devoted to weapons.

In my opinion, you are better off using that volume for more interior fuel
tankage, allowing quick getaways in combat. The other alternatives are big
reload bays for your own missile racks, and extra staterooms for more crew
to replace the inevitable combat losses. Oh yeah, and more parallel-mount
PAWs (they take up very little actual surface area - you can get around the
power curve issue by using batteries and careful power management).

Incidentally, fighters (not tending to mount nuke dampers) are quite
vulnerable to missiles.

>And yes, a Cruiser may be more useful for non-combat uses than a carrier
>plus fighter group. However, the tactical differences are quite striking in
>play (BL, especially, where ramparts really can take down big ships). But a
>cruiser is an all or nothing combat commitment; a carrier might not be.

Jump-capable cruisers can also run a lot better than a fighter squadron
can, especially if it is only trying a jump-1.

The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is the
torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, although
carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In Traveller, there is no
torpedo.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #715
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, August 5 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 716



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

mass=TNT velocity
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference
Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Hoshisame Gun Sloops
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: JTAS mailing covers
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Multi-Role Naval Vessels (was re: Fighters)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: JTAS mailing covers
Traveller Newstand: The Journal of the Interstellar Medical Society
Re: Mass = TNT
re: UWPs In BTC
re: Question about Traveller Material
Re: Questions about Traveller Material
Re: Mass = TNT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:50:42 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: mass=TNT velocity

Joseph Dietrich wrote :-

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:23:07 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Mass = TNT

Leonard Erickson has mentioned numerous times the velocity at which a
starship (or other mass) can be considered to equal its weight in TNT
when
hitting another mass. Could he (or someone else) give me this velocity
again, please?

One kilo of TNT has an energy content of 4 million Joules (approx).

Kinetic energy = 0.5 X m (kg) X v^2 (m/s)

v (m/s) = square root 8 X 10^6

=2828.43 m/s, or 10182.34 km/h  (9279.6 ft/s or 6328.4 miles/h)

- - well within the design specs for TL 8-9 hypervelocity ammo....

Robert O'Connor
Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:02:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fighters

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, but they cant deliver that firepower in large enough lumps to hurt
real warships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So use them against non-combatant craft - force the enemy to spend
resources protecting his fleet train. 

Very little in Traveller can hurt a "real warship", except for another
real warship. Traveller naval rules, unfortunately, allow you to field
fleets that are 100% "real warships" - ignoring the necessary, and
vulnerable fleet support assets.

Ian again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is the
torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, although
carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In Traveller, there is no
torpedo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Another thing that doesn't exist in Traveller are rules for what happens
to your fleet when you lose your Cargo, Transport, Repair, Medical,
Tanker, Intelligence, and other non-combatant assets. These
Fleet Support units really don't exist in Traveller rules, except as
targets in "attack the convoy" type scenarios.

While some PT boat captains dreamed of sinking a battleship, they
knew their job was to sink transports. Make the enemy pay - in blood
and losses, or tied-up fleet assets - for every round of ammo, 
replacement crewman, or liter of fuel carried to the combat zone. 

One thing on cost of threat vs. cost of countermeasure:
It costs less to mount defensive weapons on a cargo ship than it
does to buy enough fighters to overcome those defensive weapons.
But remember that you have to arm all your cargo ships, or hope that
I only attack the armed ones. And my fighters can tell a friendly
Destroyer which cargo ship is the armed one, while they break off
to hit easier prey.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:11:14 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters

[lots snipped]
>
>The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is 
>the torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, 
>although carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In 
>Traveller, there is no torpedo.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

An excellent point.  Your weapons platform (fighter) no longer can be 
out of effective range of the defender's weapons system and deliver the 
massive killing blow that a nuke tipped torp would at our current TL.

Moving on to fleet combat in general, I haven't played the board games 
of combat, nor really have I tried to "do" combat.  But as I read about 
it, it seems as though it takes a long time to fight a battle.  Does it?  
Days?  I wouldn't think so.  

I can see a kind of running engagement, one that lasts weeks, but that 
would be as new fleets jump in.  Let's see.  The enemy fleet jumps in 
and begins to toast the fleet in system.  SDBs go for cover, or evade to 
conduct further operations, and the still jump-capable ships jump out of 
system.  

The Task Force Commander, after some period of softening up the planet 
(how long?), decides that planetary landings may commence.  They do, and 
combat on the surface continues until one side wins.

In the back of his mind, he's got to be thinking about how long he has 
until the next combat ready enemy fleet "could" arrive...  12 days, at 
the absolute minimum, to what, 6 weeks?  He's probably sent for 
reinforcements too, based on the outcome of the battle, so when the 
enemy fleet arrives, friendlies may be coming in too.  So you could have 
a lengthy series of engagements...that could stretch to months...  Would 
stretch to months, IMO.

So from experience, and knowing that each system is different with 
different forces, etc,:
1. How long do the actual shooting engagements take? (fleet actions)
2. How long could SDB fleets be expected to survive?
3. How long do planetary invasions take?
4. How long do "campaigns" for a system take?


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:32:17 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters

At 08:11 AM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>[lots snipped]
>>
>>The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is 
>>the torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, 
>>although carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In 
>>Traveller, there is no torpedo.
>>
>>Ian Whitchurch
>>
>
>An excellent point.  Your weapons platform (fighter) no longer can be 
>out of effective range of the defender's weapons system and deliver the 
>massive killing blow that a nuke tipped torp would at our current TL.
>
>Moving on to fleet combat in general, I haven't played the board games 
>of combat, nor really have I tried to "do" combat.  But as I read about 
>it, it seems as though it takes a long time to fight a battle.  Does it?  
>Days?  I wouldn't think so.  
<<SNIP>>

For a really good example of a running fleet battle, that is within the
Traveller "feel", read the intro story in War World vol2 IIRC.  It details
a raid by a Sauron BC against Tanith to capture the Borzoi crop (The only
thing that is able to sedate the Saurons).  The BC engages a CA and two
CLs, IIRC.  By the end of the story, it had turned into a weeks long
slugfest that was the final major fleet engagement of the war.  

It also contained a very cool description of battle-armor Marines doing an
assault on the CA.

Later,

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:30:00 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters

Walt wrote:

>Another thing that doesn't exist in Traveller are rules for what 
happens
>to your fleet when you lose your Cargo, Transport, Repair, Medical,
>Tanker, Intelligence, and other non-combatant assets. These
>Fleet Support units really don't exist in Traveller rules, except as
>targets in "attack the convoy" type scenarios.

I'm not sure all the above support units are going to be there in the 
initial assault.  That is one of the things I don't quite understand 
about the combat system...hence my other post asking about times of 
combat.  Some of these support ships would be there, but I'd only 
anticipate that they would give some expeditionary capability, and not 
the full blown fleet support.  

Full fleet support would come later, I suppose, but how much later?  
First wave?  Second wave?  Before or after the counterattack?  

With the weeks involved in communication, the fleet employment problem 
is magnified.

Traveller has been likened to the Age of Sail, with notable differences.  
Historically, how many ships in a sailing squadron were of support type?  
Few, I'd guess.  Most of the ships were self-contained fighting ships, 
carrying their "sawbones" with them, having most everything they needed 
with them, to include spare spar, sails, etc.  Maybe there should be 
more support in the fighting ships themselves and not in support 
vessels...





The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:49:02 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
>duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
>for *their* purposes.

Agreed but then again I think only slave trading between systems are of
interest to the Imperium, the same goes with kidnapping.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:54:02 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference

>I think it's much simpler to just go with the idea that you were
>travelling with a given speed in a direction (say 45 degrees clockwise
>from coreward) relative to the planet you left. Add in the velocity
>vectorts for the planet relative to the star and the star relative to
>the galaxy. Plus the vectors for the destination star & planet.

I think I know what the variable frame of reference group are after:

To not have to worry about relative stellar motion etc in gameplay and come
up with some handwave to justify it. I think this is valuable as the
relative stellar motion would complicate things alot as arrival/departure
times from/to systems would increase quite a bit and would depend on what
pair of starsystems the jumping was done from.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference

Anders Backman writes:
> I think I know what the variable frame of reference group are after:
> 
> To not have to worry about relative stellar motion etc in gameplay and come
> up with some handwave to justify it. I think this is valuable as the
> relative stellar motion would complicate things alot as arrival/departure
> times from/to systems would increase quite a bit and would depend on what
> pair of starsystems the jumping was done from.

To be honest, most of the time relative stellar motion will be less of an
annoyance than simple orbital velocity, since most stars will be moving in a
reasonably similar direction.  In any case, the maximum delta-V involved is
probably going to be lower than the delta-V acquired in a run from orbit to the
jump diameter (for any vessel with 1+ Gs) and thus you can probably just assume
that its automatically dealt with, it won't make that big of a difference in
transit times.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:25:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:
>
> Why is kidnapping considered an Imperial crime? Is it important for the
> wellbeing of the Imperium? 

Kidnapping per se is probably not an Imperial Crime, but the moment
kidnapper and kidnappee move through Imperial space, it becomes one.
This is analogous to all those 'crossing state lines' clauses making
local infractions federal crimes here in the US. BTW, since the 30's
kidnapping, whether or not you cross a state line, has been a federal
crime here. This was due to a large rash of kidnappings for ransom, not
just the Lindbergh case.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 1998 12:28 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Hoshisame Gun Sloops

Kind Travellers,

Where can I find basic stats on the Hoshisame gun sloop?

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:34:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, diamond substrates aren't all that expensive to produce
> *now*. And there are persistent rumors that there's *some* way to
> "dope" diamond so as to make useful semiconductors from it.
>

Not, IIRC, a rumor, as much as very preliminary research. I believe I
read a short bit about it in SciAm some time ago. Anyway, they're also
looking at very seriously at diamond merely as the chip substrate
instead of silicon...for the semiconductors they lay on silicon or
gallium arsenide layers. Diamond is so much more thermally stable than
silicon it's not funny, and it's far less reactive. Diamond substrate
chips with Cu conductors, gallium arsenide semiconductors and optical
memory would make for a howling fast computer. We be talking gigahertz
speeds here folks, tens and hundreds of gigahertz.

Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:07:14 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS mailing covers

At 12:43 PM 8/5/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi there,
>
>Is there anyone who has early JTAS issues in their mailing covers (or an
>exceptional memory!) who could answer the following question:

This info. is *not* due to an exceptional memory. :)

>Three forms appear in 'The Best of JTAS' but not *in* any early issues.
>Presumably they were on the mailing covers.  Does anyone know which issues
>they appeared with?
>
>The forms were:
>
>IS Form 8
>The standard Traveller world map flattened dodecahedron.
I'm missing this one.

>TAS Form 2
>The  character  sheet  with  room  for  Personal  data and history, service
>  history and psionic ability details and notes.

JTAS #5 (mailing cover) - 1 page.

>TAS Form 6
>The standard subsector blank hex grid.

JTAS #4 (mailing cover) - 1 page.

>Any  info  gratefully  appreciated.  

A few you've missed:

TAS Form 3
Ship's Papers (Commercial)
JTAS #3 (mailing cover) - 2 pages.

TAS Form 97
Universial Military Service Registration
JTAS #5 (mailing cover) - 1/2 page.

IN Form 3
Ship's Data
JTAS #2 (mailing cover) - 1 page.


Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:05:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> > And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> > duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> > for *their* purposes.
> 
> And how is that different from a job?

You are rarely silenced with duct tape and thrown in a car trunk on a
job, unless you're working for the Mob, and that is actually less a part
of the job than one of HR's mandated severance and termination policies.

You think Catbert is an evil HR director, meet Tony 'the Fish'...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:07:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Multi-Role Naval Vessels (was re: Fighters)

Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Traveller has been likened to the Age of Sail, with notable differences.  
Historically, how many ships in a sailing squadron were of support type?  
Few, I'd guess.  Most of the ships were self-contained fighting ships, 
carrying their "sawbones" with them, having most everything they needed 
with them, to include spare spar, sails, etc.  Maybe there should be 
more support in the fighting ships themselves and not in support 
vessels...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

With few exceptions, most of the Traveller design rules allow
you to optimize the hell out of your ship designs with respect
to combat. What's the minimum cargo tonnage for a 150000tn
Battleship? What penalties does the Battleship suffer if it doesn't
have that cargo tonnage available? Does the Battleship have to
carry an entire Marine Planetary Assault Force on board to
be effective (as per the Star Destroyers in Star Wars), or can it
depend on support units for that task?

The Battle Rider/Battle Tender is an extreme example of taking
non-combat capabilities off the combat ship and putting them
on a dedicated non-combat ship. Without Jump Fuel and Jump
Drives, a Battle Rider will easily defeat a Battleship of the same
tonnage. If the Battleship also must carry it's own Marines,
Small Craft, a campaign's worth of stores, etc., the problem
gets worse. 

All but a tiny percentage of Age of Sail navy ships were warships.
Most of those warships had lots of cargo space and extra crew,
though there were ships of short cruising range that did not.
It wasn't until the age of steam that you started to see Colliers
(Fuel Supply Ships) and such - but the specialization of ships,
and the creation of specialized support ships did not happen until
communications made it possible to coordinate these support
assets. Since this level of communication is impossible in
Traveller, IMO you should see multirole ships - carrying their
own fuel and refueling facilities, carrying troops, etc.

The original 400tn Patrol Cruiser from CT was built with a whopping
50dtn cargo bay, more than 10% of volume. Azhanti High Lightning
cruisers carried their own fuel shuttles, marines and fighters. 
How specialized for combat can your starships be before they
become too dependent on support ships?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:10:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Joe Pettit wrote:
>
> > > And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> > > duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> > > for *their* purposes.
> >
> > And how is that different from a job?
>
> You are rarely silenced with duct tape and thrown in a car trunk on a
> job, unless you're working for the Mob, and that is actually less a part
> of the job than one of HR's mandated severance and termination policies.

I was refering to the stated similarity of slavery and kidnapping "being
controlled by others for *their* purposes".  The typical schmoe is being
controlled by his boss to what the boss wants.  Sure, he gets paid for it, but
that wasn't part of the distinction above.

I think the similarity above is that you're being held against your will rather
than working for it.  Which then raises the question of prisoners.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:33:25 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: JTAS mailing covers

Hi-
  Look in Best of Journal Vol 2
Page 20- IS Form 8 World Map Grid (very similar to map in MT Referee's Guide,
page 89)
Page 33- TAS Form 6 Subsector Map Grid
Can't help with the last one.

   Jay LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:56:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Traveller Newstand: The Journal of the Interstellar Medical Society

The Journal of the Interstellar Medical Society
Vol 23, Issue 2
1108/02/11 Mora/Mora/Spinward Marches

Contents

A Message from the Board of Directors
 ... Xenomedicine and the Doctor's Oath

Research Papers

... Artificial Gravity and Juvenile Osteopathic Disorders

... Solomani Genetic Tags in the Spinward Marches

... A New Protocol in Temperature-Neutral Fluid Maintenance
    for Long-Term Cryogenics Patients

... Anagathic Sensitivity Disorders: the Environmental Factor

Articles

... Ice Rot, Jump Mania, and other Myths
    of Interstellar Medicine

... Local Licensing Boards vs Imperial Certification: Which Route
    is Right for You?

... Starship Medical Officers, the Legends and the Legacies 

Educational Opportunities
... University of Mora Distance Learning Program and more

Employment Opportunities
... From MegaCorps to Single-System Positions

List of Advertisers

Publisher's Page
... Maxims of the Game


Inspired by "The Tender" at B. Johnson's
 http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/TheTender.html ,
made me wonder what other people were reading... <g>



Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-)
?st  ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy 
0601

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:53:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mass = TNT

 anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:

>>Leonard Erickson has mentioned numerous times the velocity at which a
>>starship (or other mass) can be considered to equal its weight in TNT when
>>hitting another mass. Could he (or someone else) give me this velocity
>>again, please?
>About 3 km/s (2.89 km/s)

So if you were to mount a T-plate on an asteroid in a systems outer reaches
you could accelerate it up and make it a really nasty weapon then? ;-)

Dom (he!he!he!)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:55:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: UWPs In BTC

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>There will be no UWPs in BTC. That's a fact.

You'd think you were one of the authors from the way you said that ;-)

>Forget comments about the relative sanity of gamers: there's limited space
>in a game book. Why waste it on printing something that's already in the
>text when you could use the space for something else?
Here! Here!

Fitting material in the space is a real pain...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:49:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Question about Traveller Material

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote:

>Is there a site out there with a list and reviews of all (or most of)
>the material published for Traveller?
>
>For example, I don't own any of the old Gamelords suppliments and
>don't have any idea of their content or quality.  If anybody runs
>across old items on the net or in a gamestore somewhere, it would be
>nice to be able to check out a review of the material before plonking
>down cash.

Check out Tim Collinson's  Traveller Bibliography if you can get hold of a
copy.

Superb reference guide...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:59:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Traveller Material

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote:

>Once upon a time I ran across a list of almost every Traveller product
>published.  It was on the Traveller Chronicle site, I think, but
>that's gone away now.  I do think it would be useful to have that list
>(as complete a one as possible) available somewhere.  It would also be
>nice if there was a short description for each of the products:
>number of pages, which game it was for, what was it about, if it was
>useful or not.  Then there are the articles in all the various
>magazines...;->

There's quite a comprehensive list at Marc Miller's FarFuture site. Can't
remember the URL off hand but you can get to it through my site (URL in
sig) via the links/other sites page.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:28:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Mass = TNT

SD Mooney writes:
> 
> So if you were to mount a T-plate on an asteroid in a systems outer reaches
> you could accelerate it up and make it a really nasty weapon then? ;-)

Hrm...unspeakable topics.  In any case, this isn't necessary, the kinetic
energy from a constantly accelerating object is (distance)*(force) (if using
thrust in tons and distance in AU, it's about 400 kilotons*D*F) -- the mass of
the object being accelerated is irrelevant.  Therefore, you don't need to mount
the T-plate on anything.  Of course, since thruster plates violate conservation
of energy and can be used to create perpetual motion machines, it's probably
best to just fudge the physics on such collisions... ;)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #716
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, August 5 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 717



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: JTAS mailing covers 
Re: Lost Legions
Re: Hoshisame Gun Sloops
Re: Questions about Traveller Material
website update
re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference
Round pegs and square holes
Bloodtree Rebellion...what is it?
Re: Battledress Breaker
Re: Fighters
Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
re: Fighters
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
GeoSync Hack
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re:  Fighters
re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:33:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS mailing covers 

> Three forms appear in 'The Best of JTAS' but not *in* any early issues.
> Presumably they were on the mailing covers.  Does anyone know which issues
> they appeared with?
> 
> The forms were:
> 
> IS Form 8
> The standard Traveller world map flattened dodecahedron.
> 
> TAS Form 2
> The  character  sheet  with  room  for  Personal  data and history, service
>   history and psionic ability details and notes.
> 
> TAS Form 6
> The standard subsector blank hex grid.
> 
> 
> Any  info  gratefully  appreciated.  E-mail me off list if you'd rather and
>   I'll summarize the replies if there's any other interest!

These are also in Supplement 12 - Forms.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 13:51:37 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

On 08/05/98 at 02:44 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>Norton's SF (as opposed to her fantasy) has lots of good ideas for
>Traveller. Matter of fact, if I had the money and experience, I'd try
>to get her to agree to a "sourcebook" for SF RPGs based on her books.
>Heck, do another on Witchworld and the like for the Fantasy buffs.

>Loren? Any chance SJ Games would be interested in doing a Norton
>"sourcebook" for Gurps? I'd *love* to have the "official" word on her
>alien races, organizations like the Patrol, Free Traders and the
>Guild. Ditto for the various Forerunner artifacts. And all the neat
>planets she came up with. 

I agree it would be great to have an Andre Norton's Universe
sourcebook. 

However, I seem to remember that she died a year or two ago. Am I
wrong?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:05:05 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Hoshisame Gun Sloops

>Kind Travellers,
>
>Where can I find basic stats on the Hoshisame gun sloop?
>
>Rob
>IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

It's a Chris Cox design. You can find it and other cool design at the
Draconis Cluster Ship Yards.

http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/shipyard.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 14:07:20 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Questions about Traveller Material

On 08/05/98 at 01:59 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>Once upon a time I ran across a list of almost every Traveller product
>>published.  It was on the Traveller Chronicle site, I think, but
>>that's gone away now.  I do think it would be useful to have that list
>>(as complete a one as possible) available somewhere.  It would also be
>>nice if there was a short description for each of the products:
>>number of pages, which game it was for, what was it about, if it was
>>useful or not.  Then there are the articles in all the various
>>magazines...;->

>There's quite a comprehensive list at Marc Miller's FarFuture site.
>Can't remember the URL off hand but you can get to it through my site
>(URL in sig) via the links/other sites page.

Thanks, Dom. I'll take a look.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:11:04 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: website update

And they said it would never happen!  Hah.

Well, the timeline's not yet updated (I'm in the middle of converting
the access database to word97 to HTML), but my "The Iridium Throne" 
adventure proposal finally has its own website...

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html

OR, for the impatient

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/throne.html


And I swear, I'll be posting pieces of the timeline update shortly.
SuzD - contact me off list - I'd like to host some chat sessions, focusing
on Timeline discussion, but Thursday is BAD for me...


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:13:47 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Jumpspace and Frames of Reference

>        Peter and I figure that jump exit points MUST be calculated to a
>frame of reference centered upon the target world (or star, or other
>massive body). This prevents the problem of targeting a world in a frame
>centered upon the universe as a whole, where one's exit point needs to vary
>over the + or - 17 hours from the normal 168 hours of jump. 

I still prefer the "retain your velocity relative to the universe as a 
whole" and "exit point moves relative to the universe as a whole at
the same velocity as the ship had when it entered jumpspace."
approach. For example, if you were moving at 10 km/s (relative to, say,
the galactic center) when you entered jump space, and your jump took two
hours longer than expected, you'd emerge 72,000 km away from your planned
exit point. If you match velocities with your target planet before entering
jump, the jump exit point will (roughly) move along with it, so even if the
jump is a day late you'll be close to the planet when you exit.
Nice and internally consistent.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 1998 15:12 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Round pegs and square holes

Only when it is most inconvenient for the players should parts
tend to be non-standard.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:17:00 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Bloodtree Rebellion...what is it?

I've seen written in a few places a product called Bloodtree Rebellion,
usually with Traveller items. What is it? Is it a Traveller module/game?

Thanks...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:35:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker

Omigawd...I have this vision of a  very Vaugn Bode'esque missle cruising
along, homing in on some poor BD equipped trooper, and <sproing> out
popps the PMPP.

That last expression on the troopers face... arrrgh! it's too horrible
to contemplate!

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> OK.
> 
> I've been doing some thinking about the venerable Pelvic-Mounted Plasman
> Pistol (1).

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:16:02 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Fighters

At least we're not debating fighters-vs-battleships, thank god.

Although I'm personally fairly strongly anti-fighter, I still believe
they might be useful for commerce raiding or 'space control'; a fighter
squadron can attack (light) targets spread out over a large area of space
better than a single cruiser could - for example, attacking interplanetary
traffic, or a convoy that has "scattered". Whether a 50-ton fighter or a 
200-ton gunboat is better is more ambiguous, but in some sense that's just
semantics: many small carried craft can cover more space than a single
jump-capable large ship. 

Of course, in a canonical Traveller universe, as has been pointed out,
there are few such opportunities. The 100-diameter limit is comparable
to weapons range for a ship, so a cruiser or two can completely control the
space inside a planets' 100-d limit - and a convoy outside the 100-d limit
will simply jump rather than scattering. Interplanetary traffic will 
most likely be microjump-driven as well. Only in very specialized
situations (planets around gas giants or big stars, and inhabited asteroid
belts) will you have targets spread out over tens of millions of km.

However, if one were to crank the 100-diametare limit up a little, things 
would change...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:29:56 PDT
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)

Patrik Holmstrm
Hi. I'm one of the silent members of TML. This is my first posting.

>The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is the
>torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, 
>although carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In 
Traveller, >there is no torpedo.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Well, modern (wet) ships make pretty short work of missiles in moderate 
quantities.

But this discusion makes me think that the rules concerning Nuke
Dets might need a change.  My take on how they work is that upon
firing, the warhead deploys a number of laser rods in the direction of
the taget. IMO this should be more then 6 rods (the max of the 1D6
roll). As some of these beams seem to miss their target this should
mean that a Nuke Dets fires the laser beams in an narrow cone.
 
     Nuke
      /\ 	
     /  \     Cone   
    /    \
     ___
   /      \
   \___/ Target

So the number of hits should depend upon the area of the target. 

Maybe something like this could work..

Displacement	Hits
0-200 dt	                1D3
201-1000	dt	1D6
1001-10000 dt	2D6
10001+ dt	3D6

Exact numbers would depend on the number of rods. 

Patrik Holmstrm
glappkaeft@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:59:09 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters

 
> However, if one were to crank the 100-diametare limit up a little, things 
> would change...
 
Sure, what if your main world is within the 100D limit of its
_star_. Then the limit is pretty big...

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> Of course, in a canonical Traveller universe, as has been pointed out,
> there are few such opportunities. The 100-diameter limit is comparable
> to weapons range for a ship, so a cruiser or two can completely control the
> space inside a planets' 100-d limit - and a convoy outside the 100-d limit
> will simply jump rather than scattering. Interplanetary traffic will 
> most likely be microjump-driven as well. Only in very specialized
> situations (planets around gas giants or big stars, and inhabited asteroid
> belts) will you have targets spread out over tens of millions of km.

Or around class M stars, where the life zone tends to be within the 100
diameter limit.  Note, however, that supply convoys aren't really required to
be within the life zone in any case.
> 
> However, if one were to crank the 100-diametare limit up a little, things 
> would change...

Particularly if you crank it beyond 200-odd diameters, so the limit is outside
the life zone of a typical star.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighters

Anthony Jackson writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Or around class M stars, where the life zone tends to be within the 100
diameter limit.  Note, however, that supply convoys aren't really required to
be within the life zone in any case.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So research bases, critical command centers, etc. might be
placed on the innermost planets - as far within the star's 100-diameter
limit as possible - to make any attacker have to spend a long
time in normal space before they can attack it.

The couple minute lag times for communication might be
a worthwhile price to pay, except that if Admiral Whatsisname
wants to visit your research lab he's got to cool his heels in
a shuttlecraft for a pretty good chunk of time - and it might be
bad if an emergency happened and the good Admiral's fleet had
to leave without him.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:25:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

> Why is kidnapping considered an Imperial crime? Is it important for the
> wellbeing of the Imperium?

Kidnapping and Slavery are much the same thing, in legal terms.  Call itFreedom
of Movment if you want a unifying concept.  Kidnapping,
False Imprisonment, Slavery, all restrict a sophont's freedom.

> I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a sophont,

"Posing as a sophont."  Thats interesting.  Since a non-sophont wouldbe
incabable of having the necessary mental state to commit this
crime, I think anyone who pulled it off, would qualify as a sophont
and would therefore be guilty of nothing.  What are you going to do?
Put a dog on trial for impersonating a Vargr?

'I asked the asked the defendant what the weather was outside.
He said, "Rough."

I asked him where the fleeing criminal ran to.
He said, "Roof."

I asked what the guy was wearing.
He said, "Bark."

I asked him who the guy was with.
He said, "A.R.F."  Which is the acronym of the Antares Revolutionary Front.

And then he sniffed my crotch and humped my leg!'


> rules of war,a shitload of crimes vs nobles are the only Imperial
> laws that hold on the planets themselves.

Don't forget starports are Imperial territory.  And interstellar commerce.And
everything necessary to insure them.  This means licensing, inspection,
certification of construction, etc., etc.

> Piracy btw is probably not
> covered as only piracy in space should be worthy of Imperial interest. If a
> planet (Wurzburg/Glisten) allows piracy on the planet I don't think the
> Imperium would bother.

Well, having the legal authority is one thing.  Having the power and desire
aretwo others.  Certainly, there will be different degrees of tolerance in
different
areas for different reasons.  But the legal authority is there.  And it really
is
very broad, at least on paper.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:30:01 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

> >And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> >duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> >for *their* purposes.
>
> Agreed but then again I think only slave trading between systems are of
> interest to the Imperium, the same goes with kidnapping.

Maybe in YTU, but its pretty clear that any such behavior against Sophonts
is antithetical to the charter of the Third Imperium.  Ziru Sirka?  I don't
have
any idea.  Rule of Man, I should think most definitely not.  3I, no way.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:33:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anders Backman wrote:
> >
> > Why is kidnapping considered an Imperial crime? Is it important for the
> > wellbeing of the Imperium?
>
> Kidnapping per se is probably not an Imperial Crime, but the moment
> kidnapper and kidnappee move through Imperial space, it becomes one.
> This is analogous to all those 'crossing state lines' clauses making
> local infractions federal crimes here in the US. BTW, since the 30's
> kidnapping, whether or not you cross a state line, has been a federal
> crime here. This was due to a large rash of kidnappings for ransom, not
> just the Lindbergh case.
>

As is bank robbery.  The same should apply to the robbery of any bank,any
where in the Imperium, that does any transaction in Imperium currency.

BTW, just because something is an Imperial Crime, doesn't mean only
the Imperium can deal with it.  In the US, States and Federal courts and
police agencies, have concurrent jurisdiction in a great many cases.
This means either court/agency can proceed against the crime.
Thus, IMHO, Kidnapping is an Imperial Crime, but any Member world's
judicial system with jurisdiction is competent to prosecute and punish
the offense, unless the accused can make a sufficient showing that he is
unlikely to get a fair trial in the member world's courts.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:42 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: GeoSync Hack

Howdy folks,

How about a "good-enough" hack for calculating GeoSync with
the UWP?  Though there is scant correlation, you could always
fake the length-of-day and world mass, right?  For worlds we
have no data on, why not try and see?

world radius = size x 500   (in km)
earth masses = size x atmosphere / 56
period       = (size^2 x atmosphere x hydrosphere + 36) modulo 50

This guarantees a day is no longer than a certain amount.
Hey, it ain't pretty, and it ain't real, but it churns out numbers
real nice.

World				Mass	Period	GeoSync Orbit
- ----------------------------	------- ------- -------------
Earth         0000 F876000-F	1.0	24.0 h	   37,364 km
Treece        2311 D232866-8	0.1     10.0 h     10,106 km
Regina        1910 A788899-C	1.0     22.0 h     35,556 km
Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F	0.2     28.0 h     25,545 km

...unless I got masses confused with density...

Rob
metronet.com/~washi/Tas
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:47:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> > Joe Pettit wrote:
> >
> > > > And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> > > > duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> > > > for *their* purposes.
> > >
> > > And how is that different from a job?
> >
> > You are rarely silenced with duct tape and thrown in a car trunk on a
> > job, unless you're working for the Mob, and that is actually less a part
> > of the job than one of HR's mandated severance and termination policies.
>
> I was refering to the stated similarity of slavery and kidnapping "being
> controlled by others for *their* purposes".  The typical schmoe is being
> controlled by his boss to what the boss wants.  Sure, he gets paid for it, but
> that wasn't part of the distinction above.

Ok, then.  Just add the word "involuntarily."  You can always quit your job.You
can't quit being a kidnappee or a slave.

> I think the similarity above is that you're being held against your will rather
> than working for it.  Which then raises the question of prisoners.

Prisoners forfeit most of their rights and privileges, indeed, often their
verylives.  Your life and freedom are forfeit.  They are the sovereign's.  Thus,
chain gangs are acceptable.  However, you are correct in pointing out
the possible tension between these ideas.  When does acceptable treatment
of prisoners cross the line into slavery of free sophonts?  Certainly, the
Imperium would not tolerate life imprisonment at labor for jaywalking.

However, there would be several difficult areas, especially with regard
to religious/poltical heresy, etc.  My conclusion is that the Imperium will
intervene when a member world's actions, or inaction, are beyond
a reasonable standard.  I'm not sure what that standard should be at the moment.
In the US, we commonly use 3 different standards in dealing with laws that
may be unconstitutional.  The standards vary according to the authority of
the federal system to legistlate in a specific area, the authority of the states,
and the particular type of behavior involved.

An action must have a
- - Rational relation to a legitimate state interest,
- - Reasonable relation to a substantial state interest, or
- - Narrowly tailored to a compelling state interest
to pass scrutiny.

I doubt the Imperium would have the same range.
I think its a worthy topic of discussion where that line should be, as a legal
matter.
I suspect the Imperium will claim as much room as possible.  Of course,
enforcing that is another matter.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:04:40 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Fighters

>Traveller has been likened to the Age of Sail, with notable differences.  
>Historically, how many ships in a sailing squadron were of support type?  
>Few, I'd guess.  Most of the ships were self-contained fighting ships, 
>carrying their "sawbones" with them, having most everything they needed 
>with them, to include spare spar, sails, etc.  Maybe there should be 
>more support in the fighting ships themselves and not in support 
>vessels...

I tend to put some number of mechanical and electronic shops into military
designs, though of course there are no rules to define the advantages of 
this. I'm thinking about damage control and repair rules for my Military
Combat System - maybe they should be tied to shops, etc. One can imagine
that a "mature technology" like most Traveller tends towards the highly
modular, and may also include automanufacturing, which would tend to let 
one carry out substantial repairs with relatively few spare parts - maybe
just a stock of generic modules and some raw materials that can be 
manufactured into better parts (hunks of BSD, purefied silicon, superconductor,
etc.) Sufficiently advanced technologies could manufacture spare parts from
even more raw materials (hunks of planetoid) but Traveller probably isn't
quite that advanced. 

An Age of Sail squadron on extended duty (like blockade) would tend to be 
supported by transports to bring water, fresh food, etc., from shore, and/or
to rotate out members of the squadron back to port, but generally such ships
were indeed relatively self-sustaining against normal wear-and-tear (water
being the thing they were most likely to run out of.) After major combat
ships would definitely need to go back to port for at least some patching,
reloading, and replacing of crew. Smaller ships like frigates tended to be 
even more self-sustaining. 

One thing that simplified fleet combat does neglect is ammunition  - 
replacement missiles. A TNE/T4 ship can go through its whole missile load
almost instantly; a missile-oriented fleet will need a major-league supply
chain to keep it operational. (I suppose one could invent "collapsing missiles"
in which you pack only the warhead and engine, and the body is machined out of
bulk metal when you need to reload and the fuel (heavy water for AND 
missiles) added then.) In TCS-type combats I generally make people pay 
ten times the cost for consumables (missiles and mines) to reflect some of
this.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:38:10 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

The Count writes
>[good points about fleet engagements]

>1. How long do the actual shooting engagements take? (fleet actions)
Once ships are in weapons range of each other, only a few hours.
Chasing down someone who is trying to run away from you, or  intercepting
someone travelling across interplanetary space, can take much longer - but
such actions are relatively rare; most people who run away will just jump
away, and most ships have no reason to cross interplanetary space. 

>2. How long could SDB fleets be expected to survive?
They can hide nearly indefinitely, under an ocean or deep in a gas giant
atmosphere; their survival is measured by how long they're willing to wait
before engaging. Once they decide to emerge it'll only take a few minutes
to get out of the atmosphere and fight and die. 

>3. How long do planetary invasions take?
>The Task Force Commander, after some period of softening up the planet 
>(how long?)
This is a harder question. We should note that in mainstream Traveller
civilian populations are essentially unprotectable; any medium warship in
orbit can destroy a worlds infrastructure if unupposed, and even if opposed,
ships can carry out devastating kinetic bombardments from well outside of
the range of any possible response. So, if you're willing to threaten 
civilians and the enemy is interested in protecting them, they have little
choice but to surrender once defending ships (and maybe fixed defences) 
are gone. 

If civilians are off-limits to orbital bombardment then you have to land
troops. Large scale troop landing require taking out a substantial fraction
of the fixed defences (surface laser weapons especially, which can claw 
drop capsules out of the sky as fast as they can fire.) Getting close enough 
to do this probably requires shutting down fixed (deep) meson sites.
There will probably be a fairly lengthy duel between invading ships and fixed
meson weapons - taking days if one or both sides are cautious, or hours if
one side is agressive and unconcerned with casualties. Once the meson sites 
are out the attacking ships move closer and deal with lighter surface
defences; this probably takes hours more (and of course you can never be sure
you've gotten them all until you start landing troops.) The actual
descent and landing of the first wave probably takes only ten minutes, followed
by fighting around high-value targets (like remaining ground-based defences) 
as drop troops land, followed by landing of heavier troops in shuttles. 

The length of the whole campaign to conqour a planet depends on its population
and the resources devoted to it. The campaign for Terra took months...but 
a battle for a Pop-5 world where everyone is concentrated in a single city
might only take a week, or a couple of days.


A couple more thoughts on orbital bombardment:

IMTU, grav focus pulses can't travel through atmosphere - so ground-based
lasers are quite short ranged (only a few hexes at most.) Similarly, 
ships shooting down at a target beneath an atmosphere will suffer major
degradations due to atmospheric blurring of the beam unless they're within a
couple of hexes (if they're too far away, the lightspeed lag makes it 
impossible for their beam control to cancel the turbulence well enough to 
hit a target.) Orbital installations are incredibly vulnerable to kinetic
missile attack, so moons (big enough to bury a site under enough rock to
protect it from kinetic attack, but with no atmosphere to diffuse beams)
become very important and the best site for laser batteries to protect the
mainworld from missile attack.

Also, although there's a conception that being in orbit gives you a big
"high ground" advantage in that you can "drop rocks" on your opposition,
at Traveller tech levels this isn't much of an advantage. A high-performance
missile can accelerate at 20-40G for a substantial time. A rock dropped from
orbit arrives at less than 10 km/s; a 20G missile reaches this speed in 
less than a minute. Consequently, high-performance kinetic missiles
fired from the surface are pretty much as deadly as ordinance dropped from
orbit. A world worried about invasion might pre-deploy underground or 
underwater kinetic missile batteries that could be called in as artillery
strikes on invading troops. The attackers would have to keep enough spacecraft
in orbit to shoot down such a missile salvo - which might be very, very,
very large. (A pop-10 world could have a million half-ton 20G missiles
predeployed for a small fraction of its military budget, each impacting like
ten 10-ton bombs...) The classical "Thor" concept of pre-deploying these 
into orbit only makes sense over a narrow range of tech levels. 

A "strike cruiser" (optimized for supporting invasions) should have a 
medium-sized spinal meson mount (for engaging deep meson sites), a 
medium-sized missile battery (mostly kinetic warheads for attacking orbital
or lunar targets), and a lot of rapid-fire lasers (for engaging groundside
laser batteries and for protecting landing craft and landed troops.) 
Armour could actually be fairly light, since the main threat is deep
meson weapons. A parallel PAW spinal mount might help for engaging lunar
targets.

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #717
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, August 5 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 718



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Round pegs and square holes
Re: Round pegs and square holes
Re:  Fighters
re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)
Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward
Agriculture
Jump route encoding
An atlas of the Imperium in German???
Fighter whines and a challenge
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Agriculture & other neat things
Off topic, but nice
Agriculture, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:32:44 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> > > > > And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
> > > > > duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
> > > > > for *their* purposes.
> > > >
> > > > And how is that different from a job?
> > >
> > > You are rarely silenced with duct tape and thrown in a car trunk on a
> > > job, unless you're working for the Mob, and that is actually less a part
> > > of the job than one of HR's mandated severance and termination policies.
> >
> > I was refering to the stated similarity of slavery and kidnapping "being
> > controlled by others for *their* purposes".  The typical schmoe is being
> > controlled by his boss to what the boss wants.  Sure, he gets paid for it, but
> > that wasn't part of the distinction above.
>
> Ok, then.  Just add the word "involuntarily."  You can always quit your job.You
> can't quit being a kidnappee or a slave.
>

Quit your job and you and your family starve.  Quitting a kidnapping or slavery is
called escape.  Note that it is generally advisable to feed and house kidnappees and
slaves while jobs have no such overhead.

> > I think the similarity above is that you're being held against your will rather
> > than working for it.  Which then raises the question of prisoners.
>
> Prisoners forfeit most of their rights and privileges, indeed, often their
> verylives.  Your life and freedom are forfeit.  They are the sovereign's.  Thus,
> chain gangs are acceptable.  However, you are correct in pointing out
> the possible tension between these ideas.  When does acceptable treatment
> of prisoners cross the line into slavery of free sophonts?  Certainly, the
> Imperium would not tolerate life imprisonment at labor for jaywalking.

It is exactly because of that tension that I don't think even slavery is in the
Imperial jurisdiction.  Slavery isn't always black and white, its VERY grey.
Example: Dad forces son to take out trash, is that slavery?  Entire family decides to
work for rich man for no pay but rich man feeds, clothes and houses said family... Is
that slavery?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:59:26 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Round pegs and square holes

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >>>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
> >>>Imperial Combat Knife.
> >
> > 'Appendix A : Effective battlefield uses of the Standard Imperial Survival
> > Ration'
>
> Isn't that against the Deneb Conventions? :-)

Only when used against the K'Kree. Due to the unspecified nature of the
bulk protein used in them.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:01:42 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Round pegs and square holes

Ewan Quibell wrote:

> >>>- --When Technology Fails: 101 Ways to Kill the Enemy With Only Your
> >>>Imperial Combat Knife.
> >
> >'Appendix A : Effective battlefield uses of the Standard Imperial
> >Survival Ration'
>
> I have to admit I joined the splert brigade on this one, only I missed all
> the elecrical equipment and managed to get coffee all over my note pad.
>
> Please add a warning to the FAQ ....
>
>         Please refrain from drinking or eating while reading the list.
>         Failier to do so may cause major damage to any equipment in the
>         imediate vaacinity.

Why? Oh, you mean you haven't bought the TML protection package
for the box yet.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:55:04 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re:  Fighters

At 03:04 pm 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I tend to put some number of mechanical and electronic shops into
military
>designs, though of course there are no rules to define the
advantages of 

	Huh? Did the rules I wrote get axed out of FF&S 4.1 ...?

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:56:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)

>So the number of hits should depend upon the area of the target. 
This should be true - and it should be true for any weapon, since lasers
generally fire tens of pulses per turn and should get multiple hits on
big targets.

My work-in-progress Military Combat system includes this effect (plug,plug)
for missiles and other weapons by adding hits based on how much you make
the to-hit roll by - and the to-hit roll depends on the targets' surface
area. It still does end up assuming that missiles only have ten or so 
rods, though.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:20:37 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
 
>  As my website suggests, but never comes out and says, I can be found at:
> 
> GypsyComet@aol.com

Oh! *That* GypsyComet!

>   All of Far Frontiers was published in Traveller Chronicle (R.I.P.). The
> rimward half was done by Dale Kemper about the same time the Keith
> Brothers were doing adventures in the region. Despite being the current
> custodian of the data, I don't know who came first...
>   My own work covers the coreward half of the sector. I've stated before
> that I'm not entirely happy with it, but it will do..

What's not to like???    I just spent a very enjoyable couple of hours
jumping around your sight, after I found it. It sure helped to provide a
few *new* items which I could use in the NPC category to fill a few
gaps, if I have your permission to so do.
 
>   I'll see if I have an electronic version of the rimward stuff.

You mean there may be more?  Wow!!!

>   As for The Vanguard Reaches, the only published version is the
> Paranoia Press release. This IS the version that Dale Kemper's Far Frontiers
> assumes is next door.

Would anyone on the list have a copy of this?? If so would you please
contact me via the list or privately at my e-mail above, thank you. 

>  Chuck Kallenbach (the original author) has since
> revised the sector completely, and it no longer fits quite as tightly with
> Dale's stuff.  Chuck and I talked about this and were working on making
> adjustments when Real Life (tm) swallowed both of us.
>   The new Vanguard Reaches has been available online in the past, but
> Chuck's website vanished last year...

That is too bad. I hope the vanishing will not be permanent.
 
> > (snip)  advise if data has
> >been produced for either of the Shiants (Astron) or Chtedrdia (Fulani)
> >sectors. From past discussions, these should be far enough away from
> >Imperial space to be able to develop as ones *own* sector of space.
>
>  Not that I'm aware of. The Imperium isn't THAT far away, at least in
> spirit, as the Trelyn Domain in Vanguard Reaches is strongly pro-Imperial.
> I suspect that Fulani's trailing edge is lousy with Chuck Kallenbach's
> Eslyat, a rather xenophobic bunch IIRC.  Aside from this I wouldn't expect
> any real leakage from "printed" material.

No, I realize it is not *that* far away, but I was referencing (I
believe MM) remarks made lately about developing sectors outside/inside
the T4/T5 Imperium that should be 'one or two sectors away'. Either of
these two seem to fit the bill, and I wouldn't mind working on one or
the other, IF no one else minds or has done so in the past. The last
thing I want to do is undermine or overwrite what others before have
spent painstaking hours on.

For the *electronic version* above, if available, my system is MSDOS
based, Win95, Netscape. I may have to retrieve the data from your sight.
If not, I have gained a lot of missing information for which I thank you
very much.

Jim Cooper
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca


> Jim Kundert
> GypsyComet@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:13:50 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Agriculture

- --------------32CE6C5C3450ACCD862145F3
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Joseph Dietrich wrote :-

Date : Tue, 4 Aug. 1998   10:41:53  -0500
From : yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject : Another question : Agriculture

I remember not too long ago some had figures agricultural production :
the number of people per year a plot of land
could support or something similar. Could anyone provide me with a
pointer to a website that deals with this, or just give
me the information via email?

This is tricky. Define 'support'.
Recommended human caloric intake for adults ranges from 1500 to 4000
cal/d
(Sedentary to hard labour ranges ; 1000 to 1500 per day borderline
starvation, less than 1000 - death camp rations).
WHO minima : 2600 kcal per day, 65g of which should be protein (10% at 4
cal/g protein).

Technology affects how many calories you can extract from an area of
land : eg. fertiliser, irrigation, tractors, animal growth
promoters.....

We'll consider two examples (the U.S. and the Republic of Mali).
Each is at opposite ends of the calories per capita spectrum, and was
roughly in export/import balance for foodstuffs over the
period of time the data was taken.

U.S.A. (1988)
Calories per capita : 3642
Protein intake : 106.5 g/d
Population : 246.33 million
Arable land (crops only) : 1897486 sq. km
Pasture land (grazing animals only) : 2410816 sq. km

Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
Cereal        206467
Meat          27935
Vegetables 27894
Fruit           25735

Each square kilometre supports 130 people (carbohydrate intake) or
102 people (animal protein intake), per year.

[One square kilometre is 100 hectares, each hectare is 2.47 acres].

Republic of Mali (1988)
Calories per capita : 2020
Protein intake : 54.3g/d
Population : 8.92 million
Arable land : 20743 sq. km
Pasture : 300167 sq. km
Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
Cereal       2432
Meat           154
Vegetables  245
Fruit             13

Each square kilometre supports 430 people (carbohydrate) or
30 people (animal protein) per year.

Source :- The Economist Book of Vital World Statistics, 1991.

I hope this info can be of use.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast

- --------------32CE6C5C3450ACCD862145F3
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<HTML>
Joseph Dietrich wrote :-

<P><I>Date : Tue, 4 Aug. 1998&nbsp;&nbsp; 10:41:53&nbsp; -0500</I>
<BR><I>From : yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)</I>
<BR><I>Subject : Another question : Agriculture</I><I></I>

<P><I>I remember not too long ago some had figures agricultural production
: the number of people per year a plot of land</I>
<BR><I>could support or something similar. Could anyone provide me with
a pointer to a website that deals with this, or just give</I>
<BR><I>me the information via email?</I><I></I>

<P>This is tricky. Define 'support'.
<BR>Recommended human caloric intake for adults ranges from 1500 to 4000
cal/d
<BR>(Sedentary to hard labour ranges ; 1000 to 1500 per day borderline
starvation, less than 1000 - death camp rations).
<BR>WHO minima : 2600 kcal per day, 65g of which should be protein (10%
at 4 cal/g protein).

<P>Technology affects how many calories you can extract from an area of
land : eg. fertiliser, irrigation, tractors, animal growth
<BR>promoters.....

<P>We'll consider two examples (the U.S. and the Republic of Mali).
<BR>Each is at opposite ends of the calories per capita spectrum, and was
roughly in export/import balance for foodstuffs over the
<BR>period of time the data was taken.

<P>U.S.A. (1988)
<BR>Calories per capita : 3642
<BR>Protein intake : 106.5 g/d
<BR>Population : 246.33 million
<BR>Arable land (crops only) : 1897486 sq. km
<BR>Pasture land (grazing animals only) : 2410816 sq. km

<P>Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
<BR>Cereal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 206467
<BR>Meat&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 27935
<BR>Vegetables 27894
<BR>Fruit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 25735

<P>Each square kilometre supports 130 people (carbohydrate intake) or
<BR>102 people (animal protein intake), per year.

<P>[One square kilometre is 100 hectares, each hectare is 2.47 acres].

<P>Republic of Mali (1988)
<BR>Calories per capita : 2020
<BR>Protein intake : 54.3g/d
<BR>Population : 8.92 million
<BR>Arable land : 20743 sq. km
<BR>Pasture : 300167 sq. km
<BR>Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
<BR>Cereal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2432
<BR>Meat&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 154
<BR>Vegetables&nbsp; 245
<BR>Fruit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
13

<P>Each square kilometre supports 430 people (carbohydrate) or
<BR>30 people (animal protein) per year.

<P>Source :- The Economist Book of Vital World Statistics, 1991.

<P>I hope this info can be of use.

<P>Robert O'Connor
<BR>Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast</HTML>

- --------------32CE6C5C3450ACCD862145F3--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:34:15 +1000
From: rolfe@skie.its.unimelb.edu.au
Subject: Jump route encoding

Hi there.


I am wondering how the jump routes are encoded in the galactic sector
files. (I'm using galactic 2.3, a great little program!)

I have customized the jump routes to be very rare (essentially between
close A & B starports only) but find that there are still too many, and
some "important" worlds are skipped over.


A sample is:

$0209 0111 0 1

obviously the first two fields are the hex numbers of the worlds, but what
of the 0 and 1?  I have also seen -1 and 10 used.  What do they mean?

Cheers,
Rolfe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:57:15 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: An atlas of the Imperium in German???

I happened by a used book store today and came upon this strange volume. It
is an oversized book, about 9 x 14. It contains one page of introductory
text (in german) and then the rest of the book is star charts -- one sector
per page. As far as I can tell it covers the entire Imperium. It has no UPP
data though, just world positions, which I found rather odd.

Has anyone heard of this thing before?

I haven't bought it yet, but if someone is interested I could pick it up for
them. The asking price is $1.95 US at the store (plus the cost of shipping
to any interested party). It is in pretty used condition, though, so it's
not much of a collectors' piece, and I have a hard time seeing it being
useful in any other way.

Oh, I also found several Traveller's Digests (15-17, 20) and that holiest of
grails, DGP's World Builder's Handbook, all also for a $1.95. :-) I giggled
hysterically when I found that last one. I haven't decided if I want to sell
it or not yet (I've been looking for it for about 8 years). It's a little
worn, but hey, I'd expect that from a book used by the ISS.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:02:34 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Fighter whines and a challenge

I've still got a few problems with fighters. If you use HEPlaR for high
thrust you lose your low signiture advantage. And how will you manuver you
fighters? If they go for least-time/max-velocity intercept it will take
them three times their base-to-strike time to return to base. If they
attempt to match velocities, they expose themselves to defense fire for a
long time. Also, HARMs are useless against passive sensors (no R to A).
Passive sensors seem the more powerful in Traveller.

If they have fixed weapons they can't run away and fire at the same time
(or charge to the attack and fire at the same time). The best design would
seem to be weapons in swivel mounts that can either fire directly forward
or directly aft.


This discussion convinced me to go to the Sentry Box today to buy FFS2. In
the event, however, i didn't buy it for four reasons.
1)Flipping through it in the store i found six typos by comparing the text
to the tables. (I wasn't trying, honest.)
2)Some of the assumptions seem a little odd. (Such as the radiators.)
3)Some of the assumptions don't seem internally consistent. (Thruster
plates work by twisting space which must already be stressed. Therefore,
they are ineffective beyond 2000au (from a sun-like star), but are equally
effective at all depths of gravity wells within 2000au....Huh?)
4)I'd rather buy food.

I also noticed that thruster plate ships are back to having infinite endurance.



I'll be convinced that FFS2 fighters are useful anti-convoy assests if
someone posts a design that meets the following specs:

- -1-around 50 tons displacement (this is what we've been talking about)

- -2-high enough thrust to get into its own killing range while minimizing
time within target's killing zone

- -3-low enough signiture to increase chance of entering own killing zone
withiout taking heavy defensive fire
   (2 & 3 need to be played off for optimum balance)

- -4-long enough legs to intercept convoys and return to base

- -5-tough enough to survive at least 50% of committed engagements vs. armed
merchant convoys (say 1000dt hulls with 4 150Mj lasers each and light
escorts)

- -6-at least as strong a first punch as the equivalent volume of missiles
(include survival rate: if 1 fighter = 50 missiles by volume and 50% of
fighters survive to attack and 10% of missiles do then 1 fighter needs to
mount a first punch equivalent to 50 * 0.1 / 0.5 = 10 missiles)

- -7-cheaper than it's lifetime equivalent in missile strike power (If
mission survival rate is 50% then 99% of fighters will be destroyed in 7
missions or less. So, the example fighter must be cheaper than 7 * 10 / 0.1
= 700 missiles (this is generous in favour of fighters).)



This will convince me that FFS2 fighters are theoretically useful, but like
any military commander i won't be convinced they're a threat to _my_ fleets
until they start decimating my supply lines :->


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:00:47 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Quit your job and you and your family starve.  Quitting a kidnapping or slavery is
> called escape.

The former is within your control.  Its your volitional act.  The latter is generally
not, as the kidnapper and the enslaver directly challenge your ability to "quit" the
situation.I was hoping you weren't going to press the poor analogy.

> > Prisoners forfeit most of their rights and privileges, indeed, often their
> > verylives.  Your life and freedom are forfeit.  They are the sovereign's.  Thus,
> > chain gangs are acceptable.  However, you are correct in pointing out
> > the possible tension between these ideas.  When does acceptable treatment
> > of prisoners cross the line into slavery of free sophonts?  Certainly, the
> > Imperium would not tolerate life imprisonment at labor for jaywalking.
>
> It is exactly because of that tension that I don't think even slavery is in the
> Imperial jurisdiction.

Well, its in clearly in the Warrant of Restoration, so it is within the jurisdiction and
ever member world consents to be governed by that document, which supercedes all member
law contrary to Imperial law.  No getting around that.

>  Slavery isn't always black and white, its VERY grey.

Not IMO.

> Example: Dad forces son to take out trash, is that slavery?

Is son an emancipated sophont?  Sophont, yes.  Emancipated, no.Therefore, not slavery.

> Entire family decides to work for rich man for no pay but rich man feeds, clothes and
> houses said family... Is that slavery?

The family "decided".  Therefore, not slavery.

Neither of these examples even approach the concept of slavery.

Just for grins and giggles:
Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed.:

"Slavery.  The condition of a slave; that civil relation in which one man has absolute
power over the life, fortune, and liberty of another.

Slave.  A person who is wholly subject to the will of a another; one who has no freedom
of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.  One
who is under the power of a master, and who belongs to him; so that the master may sell
and dispose of his person, of his industry, and of his labor, without his being able to
do anything, have anything, or acquire anything, but what must belong to his master."

Where's the grey area there?  If the person is property, its slavery.  This is emphasized
by the term "chattel slavery,"  as seen in the Warrant of Restoration.

Note that children are not treated as adults, and therefore restriction on their freedom
short of abuse are acceptable.  I am aware of no culture in which this is not true.
Regardless, children also have rights and can't be treated as property.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:33:51 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Agriculture & other neat things

A useful resource for all sorts of data on how the world is put together
are the World Resources "annuals". Compiled by the World Resources
Institute (UN) and published by Oxford University Press they are published
every two years. They include extensive tabular information on birth rates,
education, food production, food consuption, health costs, industry, etc.,
etc., etc., for every country on earth. Each issue also has essays around a
special topic such as "Sustainable Development", "Food Production",
"Industrial Development", "Environmental Degradation", "Human Health".

Who will know if all that detailed information you developed for Erehwemos
is actually Malawi c. 1992-93.

If you have a college or university near you their library almost certainly
has a collection of these volumes. If the college offers geography,
ecology, sociology or economics courses the bookstore probably has piles of
them in the used book section.

Gordon Horne
#1001 921 5th Ave. S.W.
Calgary, AB    T2P 0N9
(403) 264-1280
ghorne@acs.ucalgary.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:21:12 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Off topic, but nice

This is off, but who cares...

My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM Tuesday
(August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it in
the end.

ObTrav: I think we'll be following Solomani inheritance rules as opposed
to Vilani ones, as I'm not sure if my wife os so eager to have two more
kids after what she went through this time... though he did have a big
head, perhaps he takes after the Zhodani part of the family.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:10:40 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Agriculture, etc.

- --------------8DD75E78123087CC36522ECC
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I came a cropper with this E-mail :-

> Joseph Dietrich wrote :-
>
> Date : Tue, 4 Aug. 1998   10:41:53  -0500
> From : yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
> Subject : Another question : Agriculture
>
> I remember not too long ago some had figures agricultural production : the number of people per year a plot of land
> could support or something similar. Could anyone provide me with a pointer to a website that deals with this, or just give
> me the information via email?
>
> This is tricky. Define 'support'.
> Recommended human caloric intake for adults ranges from 1500 to 4000 cal/d
> (Sedentary to hard labour ranges ; 1000 to 1500 per day borderline starvation, less than 1000 - death camp rations).
> WHO minima : 2600 kcal per day, 65g of which should be protein (10% at 4 cal/g protein).
>
Should be WHO average, not minimum.

> Technology affects how many calories you can extract from an area of land : eg. fertiliser, irrigation, tractors, animal growth
> promoters.....
>
> We'll consider two examples (the U.S. and the Republic of Mali).
> Each is at opposite ends of the calories per capita spectrum, and was roughly in export/import balance for foodstuffs over the
> period of time the data was taken.
>
> U.S.A. (1988)
> Calories per capita : 3642
> Protein intake : 106.5 g/d
> Population : 246.33 million
> Arable land (crops only) : 1897486 sq. km
> Pasture land (grazing animals only) : 2410816 sq. km
>
> Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
> Cereal    206467
> Meat       27935
> Vegetables 27894
> Fruit      25735
>
> Each square kilometre supports 130 people (carbohydrate intake) or
> 102 people (animal protein intake), per year.
>
> [One square kilometre is 100 hectares, each hectare is 2.47 acres].
>
> Republic of Mali (1988)
> Calories per capita : 2020
> Protein intake : 54.3g/d
> Population : 8.92 million
> Arable land : 20743 sq. km
> Pasture : 300167 sq. km
> Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-
> Cereal     2432
> Meat        154
> Vegetables  245
> Fruit        13
>
> Each square kilometre supports 430 people (carbohydrate) or
> 30 people (animal protein) per year.
>
> Source :- The Economist Book of Vital World Statistics, 1991.
>
  Mali's agriculture isn't a lot better than the U.S.(TL4-5 vs 8!) ; it
depends on how you define arable land. I'd multiply the arable land area
by 8 to include 'forested' areas - there must be some gathering going on
as well.
This yields a value of 56 people per square km for carbos, which is
probably closer to the 'true' value.

Whether or not hunter-gathering enables a smaller 'footprint' is argued
about in some circles. I suspect not.

I know this is not the usual TML fare, but if you don't feed the people,
there
aren't going to be any starships to fly.....

Is anyone interested in Medicine in Traveller ? I'd be happy to provide
some info (and wild speculation about the future beyond managed care
:-)

Robert O'Connor
Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast

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<HTML>
I came a cropper with this E-mail :-
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Joseph Dietrich wrote :-&nbsp;

Date : Tue, 4 Aug. 1998&nbsp;&nbsp; 10:41:53&nbsp; -0500&nbsp;
From : yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)&nbsp;
Subject : Another question : Agriculture&nbsp;

I remember not too long ago some had figures agricultural production : the number of people per year a plot of land&nbsp;
could support or something similar. Could anyone provide me with a pointer to a website that deals with this, or just give&nbsp;
me the information via email?&nbsp;

This is tricky. Define 'support'.&nbsp;
Recommended human caloric intake for adults ranges from 1500 to 4000 cal/d&nbsp;
(Sedentary to hard labour ranges ; 1000 to 1500 per day borderline starvation, less than 1000 - death camp rations).&nbsp;
WHO minima : 2600 kcal per day, 65g of which should be protein (10% at 4 cal/g protein).&nbsp;
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Should be WHO average, not minimum.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
Technology affects how many calories you can extract from an area of land : eg. fertiliser, irrigation, tractors, animal growth&nbsp;
promoters.....&nbsp;

We'll consider two examples (the U.S. and the Republic of Mali).&nbsp;
Each is at opposite ends of the calories per capita spectrum, and was roughly in export/import balance for foodstuffs over the&nbsp;
period of time the data was taken.&nbsp;

U.S.A. (1988)&nbsp;
Calories per capita : 3642&nbsp;
Protein intake : 106.5 g/d&nbsp;
Population : 246.33 million&nbsp;
Arable land (crops only) : 1897486 sq. km&nbsp;
Pasture land (grazing animals only) : 2410816 sq. km&nbsp;

Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-&nbsp;
Cereal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 206467&nbsp;
Meat&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 27935&nbsp;
Vegetables 27894&nbsp;
Fruit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 25735&nbsp;

Each square kilometre supports 130 people (carbohydrate intake) or&nbsp;
102 people (animal protein intake), per year.&nbsp;

[One square kilometre is 100 hectares, each hectare is 2.47 acres].&nbsp;

Republic of Mali (1988)&nbsp;
Calories per capita : 2020&nbsp;
Protein intake : 54.3g/d&nbsp;
Population : 8.92 million&nbsp;
Arable land : 20743 sq. km&nbsp;
Pasture : 300167 sq. km&nbsp;
Outputs (thousands of tonnes) :-&nbsp;
Cereal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2432&nbsp;
Meat&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 154&nbsp;
Vegetables&nbsp; 245&nbsp;
Fruit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp;

Each square kilometre supports 430 people (carbohydrate) or&nbsp;
30 people (animal protein) per year.&nbsp;

Source :- The Economist Book of Vital World Statistics, 1991.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp; Mali's agriculture isn't a lot better than the U.S.(TL4-5 vs 8!)
; it depends on how you define arable land. I'd multiply the arable land
area by 8 to include 'forested' areas - there must be some gathering going
on as well.
<BR>This yields a value of 56 people per square km for carbos, which is
probably closer to the 'true' value.

<P>Whether or not hunter-gathering enables a smaller 'footprint' is argued
about in some circles. I suspect not.

<P>I know this is not the usual TML fare, but if you don't feed the people,
there
<BR>aren't going to be any starships to fly.....

<P>Is anyone interested in Medicine in Traveller ? I'd be happy to provide
some info (and wild speculation about the future beyond managed care&nbsp;&nbsp;
:-)

<P>Robert O'Connor
<BR>Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast</HTML>

- --------------8DD75E78123087CC36522ECC--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #718
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 719



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off topic, but nice 
A. Norton
HR Directors
Jump Drives
Re: Bloodtree Rebellion...what is it?
Andre Norton and GURPS (was Re: Lost Legions)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: The Dean Files
Slavery, from a different view...
Re: Honor Harrington 
Re: Off topic, but nice
Re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)
Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward
Re: Jump Drives 
Yet another M:IW ship
re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Jump Drives
The Dean Files -- they'll be back
re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)
Re: GeoSync Hack
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:33:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic, but nice 

> This is off, but who cares...
> 
> My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM Tuesday
> (August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it in
> the end.

Outstanding.  You get him signed up for the Imperial Naval Academy yet?  I 
hear there's a waiting list...

> ObTrav: I think we'll be following Solomani inheritance rules as opposed
> to Vilani ones, as I'm not sure if my wife os so eager to have two more
> kids after what she went through this time... though he did have a big
> head, perhaps he takes after the Zhodani part of the family.

Good plan.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:37:08 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: A. Norton

Leonard asked:

>Loren? Any chance SJ Games would be interested in doing a Norton
>"sourcebook" for Gurps? 

Any chance? Perhaps. Depends on a lot of things, like who's gonna write it,
and how much she wants us to pay...

LKW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:37:14 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: HR Directors

Bruce Johnson:

> You think Catbert is an evil HR director, meet Tony 'the Fish'...
Or my personal fave: Eddie "Two Thumbs" Arturo

Q: Why do they call him that?
A: He has two thumbs.
Q: Doesn't _everybody_ have two thumbs?
A: These aren't his...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:53:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Jump Drives

Although this will undoubtably draw flac from the non-gearheads, I found
this site with an interesting take on jump tech:
http://www.jagware.com/exodus/technology.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:41:34 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bloodtree Rebellion...what is it?

In a message dated 8/5/98 2:19:23 PM Central Daylight Time, igor@ames.net
writes:

<< I've seen written in a few places a product called Bloodtree Rebellion,
 usually with Traveller items. What is it? Is it a Traveller module/game?
 
 Thanks... >>

A GDW science-fiction wargame which was a loose metaphor for the Vietnam War.
Designed by Lynn Willis. FarFuture@AOL.com probably has copies for sale.

NOT a Traveller item.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:50:55 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Andre Norton and GURPS (was Re: Lost Legions)

>
>Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:44:59 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Lost Legions
>
>In mail you write:
>
>Norton's SF (as opposed to her fantasy) has lots of good ideas for
>Traveller. Matter of fact, if I had the money and experience, I'd try
>to get her to agree to a "sourcebook" for SF RPGs based on her books.
>Heck, do another on Witchworld and the like for the Fantasy buffs.
>

GURPS Witch World was published in 1989; it's been out of print for a
while, though.

Regards,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:43:36 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

Snip
Greeting Gentlefolk of all varieties.
I guess by the number of posts that the David
Weber "Honor Harrington" Series of novels
is something of a hit with the list.

What of the other David Weber books or are 
there other series of equal or lesser interest but still 
noteworthy out there in reality?

Please advise
Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:20:52 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: The Dean Files

Jo,
Always interested in ship and vehicles.
Please advise if these become available
Thanks

Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:41:22 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Slavery, from a different view...

Sitting here and reading the slavery debate, and then playing with my dog,
I got to wondering...

If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human settled
worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when the
Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...

Just a thought, late at night after a long day...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:18:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington 

> Snip
> Greeting Gentlefolk of all varieties.
> I guess by the number of posts that the David
> Weber "Honor Harrington" Series of novels
> is something of a hit with the list.

She's got some bigtime fans here, that's for sure.

> What of the other David Weber books or are 
> there other series of equal or lesser interest but still 
> noteworthy out there in reality?

He did 3 in the 'Mutineers' Moon' series, where Luna (Earth's moon) was *REALLY* a Deathstar style destroyer of an ancient Empire, captained by an American astronaut who...

<grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:28:33 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Off topic, but nice

>My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM Tuesday
>(August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it in
>the end.
>


Congratulations :)

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:34:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)

"Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi. I'm one of the silent members of TML. This is my first posting.

	And an excellent first post it is!
 
> >The thing that made the 'fighter' concept work in the real world is the
> >torpedo and it's more modern cousin the missile - a weapon which, 
> >although carried by a small craft can kill a bigger craft. In 
> Traveller, >there is no torpedo.
> >
> >Ian Whitchurch
> 
> Well, modern (wet) ships make pretty short work of missiles in moderate 
> quantities.
> 
> But this discusion makes me think that the rules concerning Nuke
> Dets might need a change.  My take on how they work is that upon
> firing, the warhead deploys a number of laser rods in the direction of
> the taget. IMO this should be more then 6 rods (the max of the 1D6
> roll). As some of these beams seem to miss their target this should
> mean that a Nuke Dets fires the laser beams in an narrow cone.
>  
>      Nuke
>       /\ 	
>      /  \     Cone   
>     /    \
>      ___
>    /      \
>    \___/ Target
> 
> So the number of hits should depend upon the area of the target. 

	This makes so much sense I'm embarassed I didn't think of it a 
long time ago.  Over on trav-tech I've done a ton of stuff with various 
kinds of shotgun-style bb missiles which work on essentially the same 
principle.  I don't know why it never occured to me that det-lasers 
should work the same way.
 
> Maybe something like this could work..
> 
> Displacement	Hits
> 0-200 dt	1D3
> 201-1000dt	1D6
> 1001-10000 dt	2D6
> 10001+ dt	3D6
> 
> Exact numbers would depend on the number of rods. 

If we assume that the 1D6 hits refers to Small class ships and that #hits 
is proportional to cross-sectional area, then an average ship of each 
size class would receive the following number of hits:

Class		Displacement	#Hits
- ----------------------------------------
Small		100-999		  1D6
Medium		1,000-9999	  5D6
Large		10,000-99,999	 25D6
V. Large	100,000-999,999	125D6
Gigantic	1,000,000+	625D6

(You can derive this by averaging the cross-sectional area of the smallest 
and largest spherical ships in each class, then finding the proportional 
increase for each size class.  It turns out to be a constant 4.6, here 
rounded up to 5.)

	Recognizing that large ships will intercept more of the nuke's
energy and thus take more damage has an enormous and, IMHO, positive
impact on Traveller naval combat.  It means that battleships will suffer
almost as much (as a proportion of hit capacity) from a missile attack as
a scout ship.  (Since damage capacity is related to volume, which rises
faster than surface area, big ships are still better off).  This is great 
news, because without it, naval combat degenerates to a contest of spinal 
mounts.  Missiles will still not be the knock out punches against capital 
ships that spinal mounts are, but it does mean that a capital ship 
without escorts and open to missile attack will be in deep trouble.  
That's the way it should be.
	It is still not clear that it makes fighters important, since we 
still need to determine what the best missile delivery system is, but it 
does mean that missile armed fighters could be quite dangerous.

An example from Brilliant Lances:

	A Midu Agashaam-class Destroyer is one of the staples of the
Imperial Navy.  It displaces 3000Td, carries a spinal PAW, 8xLTs, 6xMslT,
& 6xSCs.  Under BL it can take a total of 235 Hits (a third of which is
the purification plant).  Yet a single det-laser missile can now hit 5D6
times, each strike inflicting DV-72 or 3 Hits.  That comes out to 15-90
Hits total.  Considering that the PP can only take 33H, this is could be
enough for a mission kill.  
	Since T4's technology comes from FF&S2, itself an extension of
Brilliant Lances, this should hold true for later versions of the game as
well. 

	Ultimately whether or not to use this rule is a matter of taste.  
What do people think?

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 03:41:49 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Beyond Foreven and Spinward

Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca> writes:

>What's not to like???    I just spent a very enjoyable couple of hours
>jumping around your sight, after I found it. It sure helped to provide a
>few *new* items which I could use in the NPC category to fill a few
>gaps, if I have your permission to so do.

 This applies to all material on my site, and to all listening: private use
is permitted (I wouldn't have put it on a website, otherwise), but if you
wish to make use of it or reference it for your own "work for publication,"
come talk to me...

>>   I'll see if I have an electronic version of the rimward stuff.
>
>You mean there may be more?  Wow!!!

 My site inflicts some deep scratches into the material I've developed
over the years, but they are scratches, nonetheless...
 I have sector data for every sector map on my site except Beyond.
This is the same data, by the way, as can be found on Kagehira's
great CD compilation under Tienspevnekr (all mine) and Zhdant
(which I provided most of the world names for).
 Other stuff is largely fragmentary, and gets attention as it needs
it...

>No, I realize it is not *that* far away, but I was referencing (I
>believe MM) remarks made lately about developing sectors outside/inside
>the T4/T5 Imperium that should be 'one or two sectors away'. Either of
>these two seem to fit the bill, and I wouldn't mind working on one or
>the other, IF no one else minds or has done so in the past. The last
>thing I want to do is undermine or overwrite what others before have
>spent painstaking hours on.
>

  I'm sure SOMEONE out there has probably done something, but if
they don't publish in some form (paper OR web) then the material
effectively doesn't exist, and the only person who can complain if
YOU decide to publish in some form is Marc Miller. The rest of us can
comment, advise, opine, and/or whine all we like...


>For the *electronic version* above, if available, my system is MSDOS
>based, Win95, Netscape. I may have to retrieve the data from your sight.
>If not, I have gained a lot of missing information for which I thank you
>very much.

 Being a Mac user and a long-time Netizen, I use raw text for much of this
stuff because I know that others will attempt read my work with programs
I may never have heard of. No worries.
 I haven't web'd most of my sector listings due to their being pre-TNE in
their
stellar assortments. In my copious spare time I convert them, but other things
usually claim a higher priority...

Jim Kundert
GypsyComet@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:03:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives 

> Although this will undoubtably draw flac from the non-gearheads, I found
> this site with an interesting take on jump tech:
> http://www.jagware.com/exodus/technology.html

CAVEAT:

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a gearhead.

COMMENTS:

If this game lives up to its PR, I will be *SEVERELY* impressed, not to 
mention, severely addicted to it.  Now if they just had a version for 
Linux/Xwindows...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:48:02 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Yet another M:IW ship

Marshal Ney, General Grant class Bomb Ketch (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 2500 Td (SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic)
 Crew: 58/66
 Cargo: 0 Td
 Volume: 35000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Cost: 4533.528 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 113828t/113295t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 1747
 Dimensions: 58m x 28.8m x 28.8m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 9
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 6 x FibComp (CM: 0.4 CP: 2.5). Bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Dir Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 
0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Sci PEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm] Sci, 0MW).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11.5 [0.5mkm] Sci, 5MW).
          1 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci, 1MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1 x Area. Jammer (11, 
312.5MW).
      1 x Decp. Jammer (11, 0.63MW). 1 x Pas. Jammer (15, 2.5MW).
 Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:0 (0 at 7111MW, -0.5 at 810MW), Act:0, Neu:1, Grav:1

Weaponry
 5 x Light Laser Turret (+3) 1/2-0-0-0 [4,800/7-3-2-1] (LR)
 1 x Missile Bay Auto 18/18 (Mag: 54 MFD: 500,000km)
       w/72 Cmd DL 1d6/3 [113] 21.9G/6 500,000km

Performance
 2 Jump (250 Td/pc fuel)
 2/2 Maneuver (Thruster: 5556MW)
 1/1 Contra-grav (1519MW)
 3430kph/3446kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 2573kph/2585kph)
 6 Power (Fusion: 8095MW, 0.25yr)
 0 Battery
 521.7 Fuel (Scoop: 5 Purif: 168, 2MW)
 0/62/4/0/0 Accomodations (66 x Sanitary Fittings)
 858 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored])
 1 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 110 [1364] Armor, 22 Structure

Features
 15 x Airlock
 10 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Docking Umbilical
 1 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 1 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 1 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (1.25 Td ea.)
 2 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 1 x Full Galley (Cap: 66)

Small Craft
 6 x Jettison Bay (3 Td)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 1 x Dir Radio (1,000AU). 3 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 2 x Sci PEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm] Sci). 2 x Sci AEMS (11.5 [0.5mkm] 
Sci).
          2 x Sci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM: 1 x Area. Jammer (11). 1 x Decp. Jammer (11). 1 x Pas. Jammer (15).
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 4 x Helm
 40 x Engineering
 5 x Maintenaince
 6 x Gunnery
 9 x Command
 2 x Stewards

An often overlooked portion of the Terran navy during the Interstellar Wars,
the highly specialised Bomb Ketches were none the less a vital part of the
fleet. Designed specifically for planetary bombardment duties, two very
distinct forms of the vessels were produced. The first were the small cheap,
mass produced designs intended for service as orbital artillery in low threat
environments; the second were the larger heavily protected designs intended
to neutralise enemy planetry defences. The General Grant class fell into
this second catergory. The most notable feature of the design was the heavily
protected hull (over 1.1 meters of crystaliron) with armour that would not
disgrace a Ship of the Line. Since the vessel was intended to operate in a
stable low orbit, little attention was paid to maneuverability; however the
class featured an extensive ECM outfit with particular emphasis on passive
jamming and a heavy point defence laser battery. The class carried six 3 Td
lifeboats, each capable of carring up to 11 passengers for up to 24 hours
(since the class operated mainly in low orbit, this was considered sufficent
endurance).

The classes sole offensive armarment was its single missile bay optimised for
the small (0.25 Td) Raiden missile. The Raiden was a short range high-g
missile which could be fitted with a wide variety of warheads, including a
500 KT det laser, a 12 x 10 KT MIRV, a wide variety of smart deadfall
ordinance, chemical and biological warheads, and many others. Bomb Ketches
remained an important part of the Terran Confederation's fleets throughout
the Interstellar Wars, but they fell out of favour as the Rule of Man adopted
Vilani style Strike Cruisers in the planetary attack role (though fitted with
the newly developed meson gun).

One of the most famous examples of the type was the Marshal Ney. During the
Eigth Interstellar War, the Marshal Ney was one of the flagship of the small
flotilla of Bomb Ketches that were carried by Admiral Albadawi's jump 3 fleet
tenders. It was the accurate and effective attacks by the flotilla that
enabled Aldadawi to reduce Enulsur, Apishlun, Shikashu and Duriim in quick
succession; thereby isolating the Vilani fleet and enabling the Terrans to
smash open the frontier.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:56:56 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)

> A "strike cruiser" (optimized for supporting invasions) should have a
> medium-sized spinal meson mount (for engaging deep meson sites)

How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you 
don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You 
can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.

I guess you could sit in orbit and try and detect large 
power sources underground, but zapping all the electric 
trains probably wouldn't make you popular.

Traditionally I'd always thought of them as requiring either 
wiping the surface clean of sensors hooked up to the 
Deep Meson site, or landing troops as fast as possible to 
try and find the bloody thing.

I hate Meson guns...

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:08:17 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Although this will undoubtably draw flac from the non-gearheads, I found
> > this site with an interesting take on jump tech:
> > http://www.jagware.com/exodus/technology.html
>
> CAVEAT:
>
> I am not now, nor have I ever been, a gearhead.
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> If this game lives up to its PR, I will be *SEVERELY* impressed, not to
> mention, severely addicted to it.  Now if they just had a version for
> Linux/Xwindows...

Well, you know they're beta testing it right now.  You could sign up and try it
out.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:49:52 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: The Dean Files -- they'll be back

OK, I've had over 6 replies (all off-line, thanks so much!). The Dean Files
will be back as part of a revamped CORE site. I'll inform the list when it
is present.
Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:36:50 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Nuke Dets (was Re: Fighters)

>My work-in-progress Military Combat system includes this effect (plug,plug)
>for missiles and other weapons by adding hits based on how much you make
>the to-hit roll by - and the to-hit roll depends on the targets' surface
>area. It still does end up assuming that missiles only have ten or so
>rods, though.
>
>Bruce

This should be the case for single round attacks as well as it could be
assumed that making the attack roll with a lot means a better hit (better
located).
As you already have a log based damage system simply postulate that if you
roll the target number exactly (or whatever constitutes a near miss in the
system) roll the damage 1D6 twice and use the lowest result and if a
spectacular sucess ocurred roll 1D6 twice and take the best result. This
assumes that spectacular success should be easier with easier tasks.

My 0.02 Cr based somewhat on how my personal/vehicle/starship combat system
works.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:39:34 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GeoSync Hack

>world radius = size x 500   (in km)
>earth masses = size x atmosphere / 56
>period       = (size^2 x atmosphere x hydrosphere + 36) modulo 50

UWP Size = the diameter of the world in thousands of MILES.
Earth is Size 8 or 8 000 miles in diameter according to Traveller.

Just a nitpck.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:43:33 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>BTW, just because something is an Imperial Crime, doesn't mean only
>the Imperium can deal with it.  In the US, States and Federal courts and
>police agencies, have concurrent jurisdiction in a great many cases.
>This means either court/agency can proceed against the crime.
>Thus, IMHO, Kidnapping is an Imperial Crime, but any Member world's
>judicial system with jurisdiction is competent to prosecute and punish
>the offense, unless the accused can make a sufficient showing that he is
>unlikely to get a fair trial in the member world's courts.
>
>Bloo

Please remember that the Imperium is NOT USA.

The Imperium allows fullblown wars to run on planets without intervening
unless the combatants start using ABC weaponry or (shudder) disturb
interstellar trade. Keep this fact in mind when conjuring up what level of
detail the Imperial Judicial system operate at.

The Traveller Imperium doesn't resemble any country, alliance, empire or
federation in the earths history.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:45:53 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>> I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a sophont,
>
>"Posing as a sophont."  Thats interesting.  Since a non-sophont wouldbe
>incabable of having the necessary mental state to commit this
>crime, I think anyone who pulled it off, would qualify as a sophont
>and would therefore be guilty of nothing.  What are you going to do?
>Put a dog on trial for impersonating a Vargr?

Dr Theo Krenstein was supposedly in deep shit for letting his AB101
pseudobio pose as a sophont when dubbed as Knight in the first installment
of the DGP publications. This is fairly well established in Canon.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #719
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 720



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off topic, but nice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Battledress Breaker
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
re: Hoshisame Gun Sloops
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Food Production (was Agriculture)
Re: GeoSync Hack
[none]
re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Fishy conspiracies (was: Food Production)
Re: [TTL] interesting web site spotting:
Re: 
Re: Maps, Maps, Maps
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:42:21 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic, but nice

Ethan:

Congratulations!  Don't worry, eventually the memory of what she went 
through will fade as the infant grows until she's willing to go through 
with it again to have an infant in her arms...  At least that was how it 
was with us.  YMMV.


>My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM 
Tuesday
>(August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it 
in
>the end.
>
>ObTrav: I think we'll be following Solomani inheritance rules as 
opposed
>to Vilani ones, as I'm not sure if my wife os so eager to have two more
>kids after what she went through this time... though he did have a big
>head, perhaps he takes after the Zhodani part of the family.
>
>Ethan
>--


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:58:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Quit your job and you and your family starve.  Quitting a kidnapping or slavery is
> called escape.  Note that it is generally advisable to feed and house kidnappees and
> slaves while jobs have no such overhead.

Come ON! There's a commonsense line here..the bit is _voluntarily_. I have
quit several jobs, and not come close to starving. I got another job.
 
> It is exactly because of that tension that I don't think even slavery is in the
> Imperial jurisdiction.  Slavery isn't always black and white, its VERY grey.
> Example: Dad forces son to take out trash, is that slavery?  Entire family decides to
> work for rich man for no pay but rich man feeds, clothes and houses said family... Is
> that slavery?

First, no matter what the son thinks as he's dragging the trash out, the legal
definition of 'family', and specifically the relationships between minors and
their guardians are clearly spelled out in most jurisdictions. Demanding that
your child do their chores is ok. Demanding that they get a job and turn over
their earnings to the family or leave is OK, depending on the local child
labor laws. Selling them to a sweatshop is not, at least under US law, and
prosecuted vigorously if found out. Other places may vary...in India, for
instance, it's a common practice, though illegal.

The second question makes no sense. The family in question most certainly
_are_ being paid, though in goods and services rather than cash. Where it
turns into slavery is if they want to leave and rich man says no, you have to stay.

If, however, they have signed a contract for a specified term of employment,
their employer, as signatory to the contract, is entitled to recompense under
whatever the contract states, including continued service for the employer.

This is called 'indentured servitude', and this truly skirts the line between
employment and slavery very closely. A world that did this a lot, for very
long terms, particularly to off worlders would get some serious scrutiny from
the MOJ. It took some 65 years or so, but they finally eliminated it in
professional baseball here in the US. 

Slavery is outlawed, mere exploitation is not.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:54:34 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

> >BTW, just because something is an Imperial Crime, doesn't mean only
> >the Imperium can deal with it.  In the US, States and Federal courts and
> >police agencies, have concurrent jurisdiction in a great many cases.
> >This means either court/agency can proceed against the crime.
> >Thus, IMHO, Kidnapping is an Imperial Crime, but any Member world's
> >judicial system with jurisdiction is competent to prosecute and punish
> >the offense, unless the accused can make a sufficient showing that he is
> >unlikely to get a fair trial in the member world's courts.
> >
> >Bloo
>
> Please remember that the Imperium is NOT USA.
>
> The Imperium allows fullblown wars to run on planets without intervening
> unless the combatants start using ABC weaponry or (shudder) disturb
> interstellar trade. Keep this fact in mind when conjuring up what level of
> detail the Imperial Judicial system operate at.
>
> The Traveller Imperium doesn't resemble any country, alliance, empire or
> federation in the earths history.

It may be close to a corporate philosophy.  Or maybe the Cartels...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:16:40 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker

>OK.
>
>I've been doing some thinking about the venerable Pelvic-Mounted Plasman
>Pistol (1).
>
>As a sidearm, it's fairly useless, having such a high recoil and all.
>
>On the other hand, if you put it into a missile and add a target-seeker
>guidance system (Cr 1000), then you have a fairly decent clam cracker.
>
>Add in five kilos of grav plates (0.25 kN at TL10) and a kilo of batteries
>to power them, and you have a weapon that should not only go like the
>clappers but also do very bad things to BD equipped troops.
>
>Total unit cost appears to be about KCr 4, total mass about ummm 10 kilos.
>Range is goanna be pretty long, especially on 'cruise' mode, but I havent
>done the precise numbers.

Would PMPP warhead really have a significant advantage in performance of a
HEAP warhead?

I mean, sure, it'd *look* cool, but a PMPP is designed as a multiple use
weapon, and Im sure that a single-use explosive warhead would run much
cheaper.

Oh, wait a sec, I bet you want this thing to cruise around the battlefield,
blowing away BD troops over and over again, right?  I was thinking it was a
one-shot fire and forget missile type device.

In that case, I hope your IFF gear is up to date and working well.  I think
a robotic brain might be in order (considerably more than a target-seeker
guidance system) with some variable tactical algorithms, a radio comm unit
(or two) for attack and recall signal transmission, and a bit of armor to
shrug off the first point-defense shot from the BD trooper (assuming YTU
has such things).

I think its probably more expensive than you think.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:25:09 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>> It is exactly because of that tension that I don't think even slavery is
>>in the
>> Imperial jurisdiction.  Slavery isn't always black and white, its VERY grey.
>> Example: Dad forces son to take out trash, is that slavery?  Entire
>>family decides to
>> work for rich man for no pay but rich man feeds, clothes and houses said
>>family... Is
>> that slavery?

Slavery is an Imperial crime as sources on the rebellion from GDW and DGP
tell us. Margaret is portrayed as being so narrowminded free-trade
proponent that she enen allows slavery within her borders - a true break
with Imperial tradition.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:00:26 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, diamond substrates aren't all that expensive to produce
>> *now*. And there are persistent rumors that there's *some* way to
>> "dope" diamond so as to make useful semiconductors from it.
>>
[snip]
>Diamond substrate
>chips with Cu conductors, gallium arsenide semiconductors and optical
>memory would make for a howling fast computer. We be talking gigahertz
>speeds here folks, tens and hundreds of gigahertz.

Reminds me of a Heinlien story (The Door into Summer) where he envisons a
future where Gold is cheap and plentiful and, being an excellent conductor,
replaced copper in many circuits and functions.

Combine the two ideas and your typical computers/robots/everyday items
could have diamonds and gold to make Ali Baba drool!

>Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
>computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
>to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!

[chuckle]

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:36:40 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: Hoshisame Gun Sloops

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:
>Kind Travellers,

>Where can I find basic stats on the Hoshisame gun sloop?


Ah!  Well funny you should mention that.  I'm just putting the finishing
touches to my second bibliography.  This time of *all* the magazine
articles in JTAS, Challenge, MT Journal, Trav Digest and Trav Chronicle.
(Yes, I know I'm potty - there were 900 of the wretched things - I won't do
it again, promise).  I'm hoping that it will be published by BITS soon.

Anyway the answer to your question can be found in the following example
entry:


Hoshisame Class Gun Sloop
  By Chris Cox.  TC 9, 1995, pp.40-41
  2 pages, large format.  Tab., diag.
  Details, deck plans and description of a 100-ton Star Shark gun sloop.



Hope this helps

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:43:59 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

At 04:45 PM 8/6/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>> I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a sophont,
>>
>>"Posing as a sophont."  Thats interesting.  Since a non-sophont wouldbe
>>incabable of having the necessary mental state to commit this
>>crime, I think anyone who pulled it off, would qualify as a sophont
>>and would therefore be guilty of nothing.  What are you going to do?
>>Put a dog on trial for impersonating a Vargr?
>
>Dr Theo Krenstein was supposedly in deep shit for letting his AB101
>pseudobio pose as a sophont when dubbed as Knight in the first installment
>of the DGP publications. This is fairly well established in Canon.

He may have been in trouble, but IIRC, the man who mattered, Strephon,
didn't seem to mind...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:36:37 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Disclaimer: I do not condone slavery.  I'm just saying that slavery can be vague enough to
escape Imperial law.

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Joe Pettit wrote:
>
> > Quit your job and you and your family starve.  Quitting a kidnapping or slavery is
> > called escape.  Note that it is generally advisable to feed and house kidnappees and
> > slaves while jobs have no such overhead.
>
> Come ON! There's a commonsense line here..the bit is _voluntarily_. I have
> quit several jobs, and not come close to starving. I got another job.
>

And Arnold Schwartzenegger has escaped a lot in the movies too.  I've seen MANY cases where
people are living paycheck to paycheck.  Sure, not all people are like that, but not all
people are slaves either.

> > It is exactly because of that tension that I don't think even slavery is in the
> > Imperial jurisdiction.  Slavery isn't always black and white, its VERY grey.
> > Example: Dad forces son to take out trash, is that slavery?  Entire family decides to
> > work for rich man for no pay but rich man feeds, clothes and houses said family... Is
> > that slavery?
>
> First, no matter what the son thinks as he's dragging the trash out, the legal
> definition of 'family', and specifically the relationships between minors and
> their guardians are clearly spelled out in most jurisdictions. Demanding that
> your child do their chores is ok. Demanding that they get a job and turn over
> their earnings to the family or leave is OK, depending on the local child
> labor laws. Selling them to a sweatshop is not, at least under US law, and
> prosecuted vigorously if found out. Other places may vary...in India, for
> instance, it's a common practice, though illegal.
>

Well, what if you claim your slaves as dependents under the Imperial taxation laws?  When
you buy said slave, you instead call it adopting and then you meddle with a few of the
child labor laws... Voila! de facto slavery.

> The second question makes no sense. The family in question most certainly
> _are_ being paid, though in goods and services rather than cash. Where it
> turns into slavery is if they want to leave and rich man says no, you have to stay.

What about the old mining companies where you get paid in scrip.  Valueless outside the
corporation.  All your stuff is corporate property.  So the boss may say go ahead and quit,
you have no means of supporting yourself outside the corporate enclave.  Is that slavery?

>
>
> If, however, they have signed a contract for a specified term of employment,
> their employer, as signatory to the contract, is entitled to recompense under
> whatever the contract states, including continued service for the employer.
>
> This is called 'indentured servitude', and this truly skirts the line between
> employment and slavery very closely. A world that did this a lot, for very
> long terms, particularly to off worlders would get some serious scrutiny from
> the MOJ. It took some 65 years or so, but they finally eliminated it in
> professional baseball here in the US.
>
> Slavery is outlawed, mere exploitation is not.

  So the question is Where is that line?  Like I said, its gray.  If it weren't gray, we'd
either still have slavery in the USA or it never would have existed.

Since it is such a gray matter, I can't see the Imperium wasting so much resources to
enforce it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:39:38 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

> >Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
> >computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
> >to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!

Since when does a kiloton freighter qualify as a "home"?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:13:15 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Food Production (was Agriculture)

Hi all,

First of all, thanks to those of you who gave me info and pointers to info
on the agricultural production question.

Now I have another question:

What about fishing, and other sources of food production?

What info can you all give me on this subject, or where can I find pointers
to such info?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:20:21 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: GeoSync Hack

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> How about a "good-enough" hack for calculating GeoSync with
> the UWP? Though there is scant correlation, you could always
> fake the length-of-day and world mass, right? For worlds we
> have no data on, why not try and see?

Apparently there _is_ a way  to  determine  world  rotation  rate
based on mass and  size  ...  I  was  hoping  one  of  the  astro
gearheads would have posted something by  now.  The  complication
comes from a drag effect from  any  satellites.  From  what  I've
read the Earth's day should actually by about 8 hours,  the  moon
has dragged this out to 24 hours and gained  some  distance  from
the Earth in the process.

A GeoSync hack should compute the base rotation rate, then add  a
random percentage  drag  factor.  In  the  absence  of  the  real
formulae for base rotation we could use Robert's proposed  method
reworked to give an 8 hour local day for size 8 worlds.

For drag I suggest the following:

    Max drag = Satellite's 'month' - Base local day
    Actual drag = 2D-2 x 10% of max drag
    Actual local day = base local day + actual drag

The percentage of drag indicates the degree  of  geological  time
the satellite has been present.  A roll of  0  implies  either  a
very young star system, or a very recently  captured  object  (an
asteroid or rogue planet).  For  example,  Mars'  satellites  are
thought to have originally been asteroids that passed  too  close
and bacame trapped ... they will eventually  impact  the  Martian
surface.

Obviously, a world without satellites would  just  use  the  base
local day ... there is no drag factor to apply.

Where there are multiple satellites then you'll need to find  the
'average' satellite ... by averaging  masses  and  distances  and
then calculate this virtual satellite's month.

I'm not sure how to treat retrograde satellites, or  those  where
the satellite's orbital plane  is  markedly  different  from  the
world's equatorial plane.  I suspect rings can  be  ignored.  And
as with everything else there are always exceptions  ...  Mercury
and Venus don't follow this plan (possibly all worlds inside  the
habitable zone should be considered 'exceptional').



Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:26:02 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: [none]

>[suggested number of hits for big targets with detlasers]

>Gigantic        1,000,000+      625D6
Clearly warheads don't carry an infinte number of rods. Since the rods are
the most expensive part they probably don't even carry the 4000-odd implied
by the above.

In fact, I'm not 100% sure where the assumption that there are many rods
"spraying" a volume of space really comes from. Detonatin lasers go off at
sufficiently short range that evasion isn't an issue; you'd only need a whole
bunch of rods spraying empty space if (a) you can't aim them precisely
enough (and you only need to aim within a microradian or so to hit a 
100-ton ship at 10000km, which is within the limit of good mechanical
tracking) or (b) the detonation disturbs the aim (marginally
possible.) IN either caes I would tend to assume that a laser warhead
has at most ten rods.

(in my MCS I think I actually ended up assuming 6 rods, and the numbers are
such that most always hit most targets unless the target is small and
evading - I could change this if people are emotionally attached to 
1d6.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:28:21 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

>bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>
>> A "strike cruiser" (optimized for supporting invasions) should have a
>> medium-sized spinal meson mount (for engaging deep meson sites)
>
>How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you
>don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You
>can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.

Well, the best ways are the old ways; Sleep with the planetary defense
commander.

No really, pre-invasion intelligence (and post-invasion intelligence) is
probably the best way to figure out where, exactly, the nasty Meson Guns
are.

Of course, that brings up Meson Guns mounted on submarines or in
underground "railroads" that can change position at will.  Again, though,
*someone* knows (at least approximately) where they are, and that means
they can be persuaded to tell.

I certainly wouldn't be sending my marines down to ask directions.  If I
didn't know where they were, that large, hard object sent planetward would
start looking pretty good (compared to my fleet in ruins).  At that point,
the planetary authorities *better* start negotiating.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:36:39 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Fishy conspiracies (was: Food Production)

Joseph Dietrich wrote:
> What about fishing, and other sources of food production?

Consulting the agriculture section of WTH ... er ... there are no
fish!  Its all a Solomani conspiracy.  Anyone  who  says  they're
going fishing is actually going to  a  secret  meeting  of  their
local Solomani Party.

Long live the Solomani Confederation!  Death to the Impies!



Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:43:12 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TTL] interesting web site spotting:

>	I found an interesting new web-site about fusion power at:
>
>http://www.pfc.mit.edu/ldx/index.html
>
>	It's a new kind of magnetic confinement using a levitated
>superconducting dipole.  It also includes a cool web-cam of a "levitating
>cheerio" and links to stuff about magnetic levitation in general.
>
>-JM

Hey!  You're stealing my thunder here!

Just kidding.

Pete



Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:51:41 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: 

At 09:26 AM 8/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>[suggested number of hits for big targets with detlasers]
>
>>Gigantic        1,000,000+      625D6
>Clearly warheads don't carry an infinte number of rods. Since the rods are
>the most expensive part they probably don't even carry the 4000-odd implied
>by the above.
>
>In fact, I'm not 100% sure where the assumption that there are many rods
>"spraying" a volume of space really comes from. Detonatin lasers go off at
>sufficiently short range that evasion isn't an issue; you'd only need a whole
>bunch of rods spraying empty space if (a) you can't aim them precisely
>enough (and you only need to aim within a microradian or so to hit a 
>100-ton ship at 10000km, which is within the limit of good mechanical
>tracking) or (b) the detonation disturbs the aim (marginally
>possible.) IN either caes I would tend to assume that a laser warhead
>has at most ten rods.
>
>(in my MCS I think I actually ended up assuming 6 rods, and the numbers are
>such that most always hit most targets unless the target is small and
>evading - I could change this if people are emotionally attached to 
>1d6.)

I think I remember reading something about these types of warheads back
when SDI was the buzzword.  Perhaps we could find out what they were
planning and "reverse engineer" the design to FF&S to fit our needs.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:00:13 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Maps, Maps, Maps

The Count wrote:
> >*My* eventual goal is to be able to display the entire galaxy with
<snip>
> This is exactly what my goal is too. It's very similar to a project I
<snip>

Okay, maybe we should have a show of hands: who  _isn't_  working
on their own version of this (or a varient)?



Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu all over again"

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:46:39 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Draft Material

THE LAW
	Every culture must have a pattern of laws (or regulations, expectations,
guidelines, or suggestions) which govern behavior. The determining
characteristics of a code of law are found in the dual spectra of Rigidity and
Objectivity.
	Rigidity. Legal codes may range from the rigid to the flexible. Rigid law
codes are infrequently changed and shape a cultures activities by their
prohibitions. Flexible codes change with time and circumstances, and take into
account circumstances which may not be specifically incorporated into the
written laws. 
	Objectivity. Legal codes may range from the objective to the subjective.
Objective codes incorporate specific values and evaluate all suspected
violations against those values. Subjective codes call upon individuals
(whether judges, juries, or other legal agents) to make personal judgments
about the nature of violations. 

 LAW LEVEL
	Digit	Description
	0	No Law. No prohibitions.
	1	Low Law. No body pistols, explosives, poison gas.
	2	Low Law. Portable energy weapons prohibited.
	3	Low Law. Machineguns, automatic rifles prohibited.
	4	Moderate Law. Light assault weapons prohibited.
	5	Moderate Law. No personal concealable weapons.
	6	Moderate Law  All firearms except shotguns prohibited.
	7	Moderate Law. Shotguns prohibited.
	8	High Law. Blade weapons controlled; open display of any weapons prohibited.
	9	High Law. No weapons possession outside the home.
	A	Extreme Law. Weapon possession prohibited.
	B	Extreme Law. Rigid control of civilian movement.
	C	Extreme Law. Unrestricted invasion of privacy.
	D	Extreme Law. Paramilitary law enforcement.
	E	Extreme Law. Full-fledged police state.
	F	Extreme Law. All facets of daily life rigidly controlled.
	G	Extreme Law. Severe punishment for petty infractions.
	H	Extreme Law. Legalized oppressive practices.
	I	Extreme Law. Routinely oppressive and restrictive.

THE CATEGORIES OF CRIME
		Crimes Against
		Property	Environment	Beings	Society
	1	Vandalism	Waste	Assault	Violation
	2	Damage	Damage	Battery	Slack
	3	Theft	Pollution	Cruelty	Dishonor
	4	Destruction	Ravage	Killing	Treason
	5	Havoc	Ruin	Mass Killing	High Treason
	Degree. 	Crimes are further detailed by degree, the exponent of the economic
value or cost of the crime: Violation-2 is a minor crime involving a value of
about  Cr100. Intentionally killing a businessman is Murder-6 (attributing to
him a value of Cr1,000,000); killing a laborer is perhaps Murder-4. Assigning
economic value to a crime is admittedly sometimes a subjective decision.
	Intention: Intention affects the severity of consequences of committing a
crime. Lack of intention may be argued as a defense, and after conviction may
be used to reduce the severity of consequences.
	Cultural Values. Not all cultures believe that all of the instances on this
list are crimes.

INTENTION
	Intention is a strong component of crime. An individual who specifically
intends to commit a crime or to violate the law bears a greater degree of
guilt than someone who commits a violation in the heat of passion or through
inadvertence or negligence.
 Crimes Against Property
		Vandalism. Casual defacing of property.
	Damage. Physical devaluation of property, but falling short of destruction.
	Theft. Taking property Includes theft (taking by stealth) and robbery (taking
by force), fraud (taking by deception).
	Destruction. Physical destruction of property. Includes Arson, Bombing.
	Havoc. Mass or indiscriminant destruction of property.

Crimes Against The Environment
	Waste. Misuse of resources. Includes failing to sort trash, failure to
maintain equipment in efficient running order.
	Contamination. Minor crimes against the environment. Includes littering,
emitting obnoxious noises or odors, failure to dispose of useless property.
	Pollution. Serious crimes against the environment. Includes disposal of
untreated waste, unauthorized toxic waste production, . 
	Ravage. Commercial actions which degrade the environment without regard for
long-term consequences. Includes strip mining.
	Ruin. Non-commercial actions which degrade the environment. Includes setting
forest fires.

Crimes Against Beings.
	Beings may include intelligent beings, animals, artificial beings such as
robots or cyborgs, artificial intelligences, and artificial entities such as
corporations or companies.
	Assault. Violence against beings, but which inflicts no injury. Includes
threats, threatening actions, libel or slander.
	Battery. Violence against beings which results in injury to the victim.
Includes physical violence, emotional abuse; may include libel or slander.
	Cruelty. Causing pain or suffering to a being. Includes cruelty to animals,
torture. 
	Killing. Causing the death of an intelligent being. Includes murder and
serial murder.
	Mass Murder. Multiple killing of intelligent beings. Includes waging illegal
war and crimes of aggression.

Crimes Against Society or the State
	Violation. Disobedience of regulations. Includes traffic or curfew
violations, failures of permits or paperwork.
	Slack. Undue dependence on society or the state. Includes welfare or
unemployment assistance abuse.
	Dishonor. Betrayal of the basic principles of the society. 
	Treason. Adherence to the principles of an alternate or competing society.
	High Treason. Active support of the principles of a competing society to the
detriment of the individuals native or adopted society.

The Elements of the Crime
	Motive
	Means
	Opportunity

Mitigation
	1. Intentional. The violation was performed with intention and with the
knowledge that it was wrong.
	2. Passionate or Emotionally Charged. The violation was performed in the heat
of passion or under extreme emotional duress.
	3. Accidental or Unintended. The violation occurred accidentally or without
intention.
	4. Ignorant. The violation took place without the individual being aware that
it happened or that it was a violation.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #720
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 721



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Off topic, but nice
Re: The Dean Files -- they'll be back
Slavery, from a different view...
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Battledress Breaker
Re: Fighters
Looking for 2300AD Stuff
re: Nuke Dets
Re: Lost Legions)
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Test Email - Ignore Me
Re: Fighters
re: A Few Responses to Walt Smith
[none]
Planetary Assault
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:46:16 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

[snip my comments about concurrent jurisdiction.

> Please remember that the Imperium is NOT USA.

I'll make a note of it.

What I posted was an example of how the situation is treated in the US.
It is not a unique approach, by any stretch of the imagination.  Many
other countries have and do practice similarly.  The principle of
concurrent jurisdiction between sovereign governments is a rational
mechanism to deal with many problems.

> The Imperium allows fullblown wars to run on planets without intervening
> unless the combatants start using ABC weaponry or (shudder) disturb
> interstellar trade.

So.  That contradicts nothing I've said or that can be found in the Warrant
ofRestoration.

> Keep this fact in mind when conjuring up what level of
> detail the Imperial Judicial system operate at.

Sure thing.

> The Traveller Imperium doesn't resemble any country, alliance, empire or
> federation in the earths history.

History repeats.  Humans are Human.  The Rule of Man was created byTerrans.

Certainly, the Imperium is unique, but it would be foolish to say that
historical
parallels are uniformly inappropriate.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:51:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

> >> I'd say piracy, slavery, pseudobio posing as a sophont,
> >
> >"Posing as a sophont."  Thats interesting.  Since a non-sophont wouldbe
> >incabable of having the necessary mental state to commit this
> >crime, I think anyone who pulled it off, would qualify as a sophont
> >and would therefore be guilty of nothing.  What are you going to do?
> >Put a dog on trial for impersonating a Vargr?
>
> Dr Theo Krenstein was supposedly in deep shit for letting his AB101
> pseudobio pose as a sophont when dubbed as Knight in the first installment
> of the DGP publications.

So its the good Doctor who has committed the crime and not the pseudobio.That
would be something other than "posing", as its the pseudobio and not
the Doctor himself.  Perhaps, "misrepresentation of a pseudobio as sophont,"
"fraudulent sophontism," something along those lines.  I thought you meant
the pseudobio itself would be guilty of the crime.

> This is fairly well established in Canon.

Canon is only well established where it is well known.And with so many
Canonical works being out of print and
extremely difficult to acquire, I hope you can forgive my
ignorance of your illuminating example.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:01:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Well, what if you claim your slaves as dependents under the Imperial taxation laws?  When you
> buy said slave, you instead call it adopting and then you meddle with a few of the child
> labor laws... Voila! de facto slavery.

Slavery is illegal in the Imperium.  There is absolutely no question about that.
What constitutes slavery is very clear: sophonts as personal property against their will.

The question for Traveller purposes is not whether one behavior is slavery or not.
The question is, can you get away with illegal slavery in the Imperium.
The answer to that is certainly "yes."

For the Imperium to prosecute slavery, several things must happen.
They must have:
- - awareness of the slavery,
- - the will to prosecute it, and
- - the resources to prosecute it.

For a multitude of reasons, the Imperium may not be able or willing to treat
all cases of slavery uniformly.

If a given situation is not clearly slavery, i.e., indentured servitude, etc.,
the Imperium may be unwilling to prosecute it.
If its a backwater planet with little significance to the Imperium, they may
not have the resources in the position to prosecute it.
If an enslaved race is not clearly a sophont race, at least to the Imperium's
knowledge, they have nothing to prosecute.

That slavery is illegal by Imperium law, wherever found within the Imperium,
is simply not a question.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:03:54 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Anders Backman wrote:

> Slavery is an Imperial crime as sources on the rebellion from GDW and DGP
> tell us. Margaret is portrayed as being so narrowminded free-trade
> proponent that she enen allows slavery within her borders - a true break
> with Imperial tradition.

Who's Margaret?  Perhaps someone should have a word with her.
"Margart, meet Nat Turner.  Nat, meet Margaret."

I'm joking.

I have no MT materials but they are en route.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:03:08 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Off topic, but nice

Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> This is off, but who cares...
> 
> My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM Tuesday
> (August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it in
> the end.

> Ethan Henry                                           

 Well congratulations to both Margit and yourself and welcome to our
world Jasper. My wife has her birthday on the same day and sends her
congratulations as well.

Jim & Carol Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:33:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The Dean Files -- they'll be back

also, for those of you who can't wait they'e available in text form at:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/other_vehicles.html

But Jo's hypertext format is much better for online browsing as mine are
zip files you have to download.

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> OK, I've had over 6 replies (all off-line, thanks so much!). The Dean Files
> will be back as part of a revamped CORE site. I'll inform the list when it
> is present.
> Cheers,
> Jo

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:39:11 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Slavery, from a different view...

Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:41:22 -0400, Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>

>I wonder what the reaction was when the
>Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
>viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...

No more than Vilani would consider chimps and apes to be "little brothers".

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:36:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large part
of IC manufacture.

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Reminds me of a Heinlien story (The Door into Summer) where he envisons a
> future where Gold is cheap and plentiful and, being an excellent conductor,
> replaced copper in many circuits and functions.
> 
> Combine the two ideas and your typical computers/robots/everyday items
> could have diamonds and gold to make Ali Baba drool!
> 
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:44:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

When it's the good ship Mae Lee, that's when! ;-) 

(one more jump and we get our soon to be greasy mitts on her! yaaayyy!!)

Seriously, a ship would need shielding like that at well, from the rf
interference such a computer could generate. Hospitals require special
shielding, and even business use systems are required to meet FCC 'B'
class, which allows more noise from the system.

Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> > >Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
> > >computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
> > >to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!
> 
> Since when does a kiloton freighter qualify as a "home"?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:50:45 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

>How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you
>don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You
>can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.

You don't. You engage the targeting systems. Once the thing can't see, it
can't shoot. Plus, if you take the planet, you simply have to repair the
command and control systems and now _you_ have a deep site meson gun.

Thus, a lot of firepower will be spent on destroying ground and orbit based
AEMS and PEMS arrays, and ground side communication systems.

This, in my opinion, would be SOP at any TL...in lower TLs it'll deal with
planetary defence missiles, and at higher TLs it will deal with the deep
meson guns.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

Andy Akins writes:
> You don't. You engage the targeting systems. Once the thing can't see, it
> can't shoot. Plus, if you take the planet, you simply have to repair the
> command and control systems and now _you_ have a deep site meson gun.

Of course, considering that you can hide a virtually unlimited number of
forward observer posts with meson comms on an inhabited planet, 'engage the
targeting systems' has limited meaning.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:49:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker

>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker
>
>I mean, sure, it'd *look* cool, but a PMPP is designed as a multiple use
>weapon, and Im sure that a single-use explosive warhead would run much
>cheaper.
>

*confused look* You mean you want more reasons, other than it looks cool ?

Oh yeah, and I am deeply indebted to Doug Berry for the idea of having the
bus as a humanoid figure, with the PMPP in the appropriate place.

>Oh, wait a sec, I bet you want this thing to cruise around the battlefield,
>blowing away BD troops over and over again, right?  I was thinking it was a
>one-shot fire and forget missile type device.

Weeeeeelllll, I was kinda planning on one-shot. The logic is something like
battledress will have short range countermeasures against SEFOP grenades
and similar, but a nose-mounted plasma gun may be able to fire outside this
range. I think it is a viable concept, but it needs more work.

>
>In that case, I hope your IFF gear is up to date and working well.  I think
>a robotic brain might be in order (considerably more than a target-seeker
>guidance system) with some variable tactical algorithms, a radio comm unit
>(or two) for attack and recall signal transmission, and a bit of armor to
>shrug off the first point-defense shot from the BD trooper (assuming YTU
>has such things).

It's designed as a battledress breaker, so if your side doesnt use BD, just
tell it to kill any clams it finds.

>
>I think its probably more expensive than you think.
>

Still worth it for the first reason you mentioned.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:38:12
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighters

>From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
>Subject: Fighter whines and a challenge
>
>I've still got a few problems with fighters. If you use HEPlaR for high
>thrust you lose your low signiture advantage. 

Given Traveller sensors, this isnt much of an advantage. Combat ranges in
Traveller goes out to about 5 light seconds absolute tops, and
military-grade sensors see a lot further than that. Essentially, sneaking
up on people is damn difficult - you need to run power plants to maneuver
and accelerate, and that creates signature.

>And how will you manuver you
>fighters? If they go for least-time/max-velocity intercept it will take
>them three times their base-to-strike time to return to base. If they
>attempt to match velocities, they expose themselves to defense fire for a
>long time. Also, HARMs are useless against passive sensors (no R to A).
>Passive sensors seem the more powerful in Traveller.

This maneuvering problem is common to most everything. Usually, a ship in
combat will accelerate with one gee and use anything left over for evasion.
Fighters are usually built with 4 gees or more acceleration (with no
evasion, combat ranges go out to sensor ranges, which are loooooong).

>
>If they have fixed weapons they can't run away and fire at the same time
>(or charge to the attack and fire at the same time). The best design would
>seem to be weapons in swivel mounts that can either fire directly forward
>or directly aft.

Personally, I think fighters could easily spin-fire-spin-evade. Most
Traveller space weapons fire about once every 10-20 seconds, so there is
plenty of time to re-orient yourself during the cool-down period.

>This discussion convinced me to go to the Sentry Box today to buy FFS2. In
>the event, however, i didn't buy it for four reasons.
>1)Flipping through it in the store i found six typos by comparing the text
>to the tables. (I wasn't trying, honest.)

Imperium Games never really had the concept of proofreading. Errata is
available via Dave Golden's web page. Despite this, in my view it is still
well worth buying, if you're a gearhead.

>2)Some of the assumptions seem a little odd. (Such as the radiators.)

I'm curious. I actually like the way you need radiators. What do you find
odd about them ?

>3)Some of the assumptions don't seem internally consistent. (Thruster
>plates work by twisting space which must already be stressed. Therefore,
>they are ineffective beyond 2000au (from a sun-like star), but are equally
>effective at all depths of gravity wells within 2000au....Huh?)

This is a game fudge to stop the Infamous Near-C Rock (get asteroid in
outsystem. Attach t-plates. Accelerate to large fraction of C. Crash into
enemy planet). Thruster plates also violate a couple of other things, such
as the law of consevation of mass/energy.

>4)I'd rather buy food.

Fair enough.

>
>I also noticed that thruster plate ships are back to having infinite
endurance.
>

Didnt they always have this until TNE ?

>
>
>I'll be convinced that FFS2 fighters are useful anti-convoy assests if
>someone posts a design that meets the following specs:
>

Personally, I think the excellent Wasp class light fighter from Svennson
Small Craft fits most of these specs. Copies are available on request. Or
check the THUDDD archive, for more expensive fighters.

>
>This will convince me that FFS2 fighters are theoretically useful, but like
>any military commander i won't be convinced they're a threat to _my_ fleets
>until they start decimating my supply lines :->
>

Personally, I think fighters are useful, but not anywhere near the line of
battle.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 06:07:11 -0500
From: Steve Dorfman <dorfman@ksu.edu>
Subject: Looking for 2300AD Stuff

Greetings,

I am looking for GDW Traveller 2300AD 2nd Edition Rule Set, Ships of the
French Arm (a module/source book) and Invasion (a module/source book).
If anyone can help please email me at dorfman@ksu.edu...thanks for the
help...Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:20:32 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Nuke Dets

John Macpherson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
	Ultimately whether or not to use this rule is a matter of taste.  
What do people think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let's see...with this rule, adventurer-size ships might be able to
scare much bigger ships. This might have some possibilities. <g>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:36:22 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Legions)

Has anyone worked up any scenarios
similar to this or any other concepts/scenarios
with "lost colony bent"?

Please advise
Thanks

Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:58:48 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

> If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human settled
> worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when the
> Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
> viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...

I think dogs and canines would be seen more as the Vargr equivalent of
primates (pre-Proto-Vargr).  Are there people (outside of some animal rights
nuts) who object to the "lil brothers" being in zoo's?  Course, w/ the
Vargr... who can tell? ; )  Pets of the World, unite? 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:15:51 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Test Email - Ignore Me

Just got forced at work to change to MS Outlook (gakh). Wanted to confirm it
wouldn't mess up the TML.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 02:26:39 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighters

In a message dated 8/5/98 8:31:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
montecristo@hotmail.com writes:

<< Traveller has been likened to the Age of Sail, with notable differences.  
 Historically, how many ships in a sailing squadron were of support type?  
 Few, I'd guess.  Most of the ships were self-contained fighting ships, 
 carrying their "sawbones" with them, having most everything they needed 
 with them, to include spare spar, sails, etc.  Maybe there should be 
 more support in the fighting ships themselves and not in support 
 vessels...
  >>

Does anyone have in hard info on what percentage an average man-of-war would
have devoted to spares and other storage?  It seems this could be modeled in
any of the Trav ship design systems, by just allocating that % of hull space
to cargo, specifically as spares.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:21:59 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: A Few Responses to Walt Smith

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reminds me of a Heinlien story (The Door into Summer) where he envisons a
future where Gold is cheap and plentiful and, being an excellent conductor,
replaced copper in many circuits and functions.

Combine the two ideas and your typical computers/robots/everyday items
could have diamonds and gold to make Ali Baba drool!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Though I have to admit some of the crap I've watched on TV to mention
this <g>:

Mid-Eighties, the most recent Buck Rogers TV show. "Twikki", an
annoying little robot character, carried a glass lightshow on his
chest that was an AI with a PhD. When they were in danger of being
captured by a mob of undercity criminals, the Doctor box mentioned
that he'd probably be chopped up for the valuable crystals and
precious metals used in his brain.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:52:34 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [none]

>So from experience, and knowing that each system is different with
>different forces, etc,:
>1. How long do the actual shooting engagements take? (fleet actions)

totally dependant upon rules in force. IE, what rules do you use when
playing them out?

>2. How long could SDB fleets be expected to survive?
>3. How long do planetary invasions take?
>4. How long do "campaigns" for a system take?

Are you Eliminating or Capturing? If the latter, figure several months or
more on a mod pop or larger world that is relatively habitable; if you have
the forces, you capture all industrially capable stuff simultaneously.

>


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:13:43 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Planetary Assault

Steve Rennell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you 
don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You 
can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.

<snip>

Traditionally I'd always thought of them as requiring either 
wiping the surface clean of sensors hooked up to the 
Deep Meson site, or landing troops as fast as possible to 
try and find the bloody thing.

I hate Meson guns...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You and every planetary assault leader in the Navy.
I wonder - if an Imperial Navy Admiral rubbed a
lamp and found a genie, would he wish to uninvent
the Meson Gun? Give up the Meson Spinal Mount
in exchange for not having to worry about Deep
Meson Sites?

I'd like to see more on how to take a planet. Can you
take a high-pop world that someone else wants to
keep? (The answer probably depends on how much that
someone else wants to keep it, and how much you're
willing to break to get it.)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 15:26:55 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

On 08/06/98 at 11:36 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
>interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large
>part of IC manufacture.

Umm...gold *was* (and still is) used.  There was enough of it, and
other precious minerals, in some of the older systems to have made
"mining" them before (and in some cases after) being sent to the junk
yard economically viable.  

In today's computers, lots of substitutes are used instead, and the
amount of any precious mineral in the system is lower, partly due to
substitution, partly (mostly) due to miniaturization.  I don't think
mining your system boards is economic anymore. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:58:46 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> Disclaimer: I do not condone slavery.  I'm just saying that slavery can be
vague 
> enough to escape Imperial law.
 
It is well documented that slavery is illegal in the Imperium.  It all depends
on how pervasive the Imperium is in YTU.  In the OTU, the MoJ and IN will
definately stop overt slave-ships and such but I would say the "gray" areas
you're talking about are not slavery.  Definately exploitation and despicable
behavior, but not slavery.

> > Come ON! There's a commonsense line here..the bit is _voluntarily_. I have
> > quit several jobs, and not come close to starving. I got another job.
> 
> 
> And Arnold Schwartzenegger has escaped a lot in the movies too.  I've seen
> MANY cases where people are living paycheck to paycheck.  Sure, not all
people > are like that, but not all people are slaves either.

Now that is just plain ridiculous.  Especially the analogy, though it is
funny... lol.  

> Since it is such a gray matter, I can't see the Imperium wasting so much
> resources to enforce it.

The Imperium *does* enforce it...at least in the OTU.  YTUMV.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 15:06:30 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

On 08/06/98 at 02:03 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
said:

>> Slavery is an Imperial crime as sources on the rebellion from GDW and DGP
>> tell us. Margaret is portrayed as being so narrowminded free-trade
>> proponent that she enen allows slavery within her borders - a true break
>> with Imperial tradition.

>Who's Margaret?  Perhaps someone should have a word with her.
>"Margart, meet Nat Turner.  Nat, meet Margaret."

>I'm joking.

Hee! Hee! ;-p

Are we, Referee, sure Margaret allowed (I've heard it said she did
more than *allow*) slavery, or are these more in the line of rumors?  

The impression I got, from what little Rebellion material I have, is
that there was a lot of propaganda being tossed about by all sides.
Accusing Margaret of slavery, given her background and area of space,
would certainly have been effective propaganda even if it wasn't
really true.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #721
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 722



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Drives 
re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Limelights
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
A. Norton
re: Nuke Dets
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Nuke Dets
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Off topic, but nice
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Det Lasers
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Looking for 2300AD Stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:09:57 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives 

> > > Although this will undoubtably draw flac from the non-gearheads, I found
> > > this site with an interesting take on jump tech:
> > > http://www.jagware.com/exodus/technology.html
> >
> > CAVEAT:
> >
> > I am not now, nor have I ever been, a gearhead.
> >
> > COMMENTS:
> >
> > If this game lives up to its PR, I will be *SEVERELY* impressed, not to
> > mention, severely addicted to it.  Now if they just had a version for
> > Linux/Xwindows...
> 
> Well, you know they're beta testing it right now.  You could sign up and try
> it out.

No Linux version.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:12:55 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

At 06:56 pm 8/6/98 +1200, you wrote:
>bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>
>> A "strike cruiser" (optimized for supporting invasions) should
have a
>> medium-sized spinal meson mount (for engaging deep meson sites)
>
>How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you 
>don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You 
>can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.

	- Take out sensor/C2 sites
	- Search for and destroy neutrino emissions
	- Search for gravitic anomalies (this is *already* being used for
oil prospecting ...)
	- Hack the planetary defense network and find out where the site is
located
	- Send in spies to find out where the site is located
	- Infiltrate commandoes into the supply chain
		finally,
	- Depending on how you play it, you *can* track back roughly where a
meson shot came from, as the decay of the mesons won't be perfectly
spherical OR always on target.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:46:14 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Limelights

On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:22:04 -0400, shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>If you are at a reasonable distance from a star you can do it that way.
>Or you can get a nice *bright* light source by having a oxy-hydrogen
>flame playing on a piece of limestone (that's how those monster
>spotlights they have at movie premieres and various "grand openings"
>work. The amount of oxygen and hydrogen required to power a light for a
>reader is pretty darn miniscule. 

>Y'know, give the large amounts of hydrogen on most ships, and the ned
>for oxygen for life-support, oxy-hydrogen powered "limelights" might
>make a better backup light source than battery powered lights!

>Among other things, they have the advantage of *not creating electrical
>or magnetic fields that could interfere with unshielded circuitry being
>repaired, and as long as you have protective covers over any ports,
>there'd be no indication from the outside that the ship wasn't a dead
>hulk (except for the IR output, but there are lots of reasons why the
>ship could stay hot for long periods after being knocked out. 

OTOH, they have the very nasty _disadvantage_ of generating
quantities of a colorless, odorless gas that bonds _very_ well
with hemoglobin - and never lets go.  Death by carbon monoxide
poisoning is _not_ a recommended recreational activity.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:14:28 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>
>Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:46:39 EDT
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
>
>Draft Material
>
...
>
>Mitigation
>	1. Intentional. The violation was performed with intention and with the
>knowledge that it was wrong.
>	2. Passionate or Emotionally Charged. The violation was performed in the
heat
>of passion or under extreme emotional duress.
>	3. Accidental or Unintended. The violation occurred accidentally or without
>intention.
>	4. Ignorant. The violation took place without the individual being aware
that
>it happened or that it was a violation.
>

My direct knowledge of law is limited to military justice, but according to
the Manual for Courts Martial, these elements are not strictly speaking
matters in mitigation. To paraphrase:

1.  Defense - elements showing that you did not commit a specific crime, or
that your actions did not constitute a crime.
2.  Extenuation - elements showing that while you did commit a crime, it
was not as serious as it could be.
3.  Mitigation - elements showing that while you did commit a crime and it
was serious, you should not be punished as severely as possible.

Some of these could be defenses, depending on the legal system ("Ignorance
of the Law is no Excuse.").  Most of them would be matters in extenuation,
rather than mitigation.

Intention, as you have defined it, would be an aggravating rather than a
mitigating factor.  Lack of intent is a defense in some crimes, however.

Respectfully,

Christopher Thrash

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:11:00 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: A. Norton

Wow! You mean there are other Andre Norton fans out there? I must confess that
some of my earliest SF was the 'Solar Queen' series, and I've shamelessly
plagarized some plot elements for Traveller campaigns. I've thought that others
might consider her works to be too 'juvenile'. I missed the original post
somehow, but in case it wasn't mentioned Norton co-authored a couple of new
Solar Queen stories recently (1997). I've read the first one, pretty decent
read, nasty adventure idea for Traveller! 
Hey, this could be a good #traveller thread - SF books and Traveller, what
influenced your campaigns, your favorite books/authors, what 'converts' well
and what doesn't. Too bad I have to work Thursday evenings (Grr!)
Has anyone read the Brian Daley 'Hobart Floyt'
trilogy? A more space opera, humorous type but a good read. I always wanted to
start a campaign with the PC'a having Inheritor's belts...

ALO 

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:50:55 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Andre Norton and GURPS (was Re: Lost Legions)

>
>Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:44:59 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Lost Legions
>
>In mail you write:
>
>Norton's SF (as opposed to her fantasy) has lots of good ideas for
>Traveller. Matter of fact, if I had the money and experience, I'd try
>to get her to agree to a "sourcebook" for SF RPGs based on her books.
>Heck, do another on Witchworld and the like for the Fantasy buffs.
>
- ---




- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:26:35 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Nuke Dets

>Let's see...with this rule, adventurer-size ships might be able to
>scare much bigger ships. This might have some possibilities. <g>
>
>
>Walt Smith

Yes, but they will not have det-nuke lasers unless they're Naval players or
pirates. Nuke use is prohibited by the Imperial rules of war.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 15:41:10 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

On 08/06/98 at 11:44 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>When it's the good ship Mae Lee, that's when! ;-) 

>(one more jump and we get our soon to be greasy mitts on her!
>yaaayyy!!)

You hope! ;->

>Seriously, a ship would need shielding like that at well, from the rf
>interference such a computer could generate. Hospitals require
>special shielding, and even business use systems are required to meet
>FCC 'B' class, which allows more noise from the system.

>Joe Pettit wrote:
>> 
>> > >Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
>> > >computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
>> > >to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!
>> 
>> Since when does a kiloton freighter qualify as a "home"?

Bruce has a point.  In Traveller the ship is often home for the crew,
and hotel for the passengers.  As such, there are going to be "all the
conveniences of home" aboard, and shielding requirements similar to
any home shielding requirements. 

For my games, I postulated that gravitic technology produces fields
that play "merry heck" with electronics anyway.  This means all
electronics rated to work around gravitic devices are bigger, heavier,
slower, more expensive.  

Few planets are willing to forgo the use of grav tech. So when it is
discovered, electronic devices stop shrinking and start getting larger
and heavier. 

That's my handwave anyway.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 23:05:00 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuke Dets

>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>	


>>Lots Deleted for space<<
A Midu Agashaam-class Destroyer is one of the staples of the
Imperial Navy.  It displaces 3000Td, carries a spinal PAW, 8xLTs, 6xMslT,
& 6xSCs.  Under BL it can take a total of 235 Hits (a third of which is
the purification plant).  Yet a single det-laser missile can now hit 5D6
times, each strike inflicting DV-72 or 3 Hits.  That comes out to 15-90
Hits total.  Considering that the PP can only take 33H, this is could be
enough for a mission kill.  
	Since T4's technology comes from FF&S2, itself an extension of
Brilliant Lances, this should hold true for later versions of the game as
well. 

	Ultimately whether or not to use this rule is a matter of taste.  
What do people think?

*************
My personal opinion (having served on a Frigate myself) is that this is
fairly accurate and a good theroy.  I know if a missile ever got through
our defences, we were gonna be out of the battle (probably 3000' below the
ocean surface too).  With the technology we have currently today, It's hard
to get a missle hit on one of our warships.  If you got hit by a missile
though, 3/4ths of your crew will be doing damage control while the other
1/4th is dead.  Even more so in space with decompression and all..  It'd be
easy to cut out a fire (vaccuum the room) but if there's still personal in
there, moral'd hit a new low if you did that.  I'm not a physics major or
anything yet, but the theroy of more volume taking more of a hit seems that
it'd hold up to me also..  You'd be insane to enter combat without some
form of Antimissile defences.  Sandcasters, laser batteries, etc.  
Just my thoughts.
Josh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:01:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>Sure thing.
>
>> The Traveller Imperium doesn't resemble any country, alliance, empire or
>> federation in the earths history.
>
>History repeats.  Humans are Human.  The Rule of Man was created byTerrans.
>
>Certainly, the Imperium is unique, but it would be foolish to say that
>historical
>parallels are uniformly inappropriate.
>
>Bloo

The part about the Imperium not being similar to any historical state was
intended to steer the discussion towards issues about wether ths or that
epoch/state etc that historically fit the Imperium good enough to be used
as a model. History may repeat itself but as the Imperium was created by
Marc W et al (remember) it may not necessarily fit any real government.

Beside the fact(?) that the Imperium DOES NOT RESEMBLE THE US (no yanks in
space please) what historical state etc does it resemble, the Hansa states?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:07:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>So its the good Doctor who has committed the crime and not the pseudobio.That
>would be something other than "posing", as its the pseudobio and not
>the Doctor himself.  Perhaps, "misrepresentation of a pseudobio as sophont,"
>"fraudulent sophontism," something along those lines.  I thought you meant
>the pseudobio itself would be guilty of the crime.

Yeah, you're right - thanks for pointing it out. "Fraudulent sophontism" is
a cool term btw. I don't think the Imperium require nonsophont to uphold
the law themselves but France actually held cases where rats etc where
charged with this and that, they were even given a lwayer to defend
themselves properly.

>> This is fairly well established in Canon.
>
>Canon is only well established where it is well known.And with so many
>Canonical works being out of print and
>extremely difficult to acquire, I hope you can forgive my
>ignorance of your illuminating example.
>
>Bloo

What, don't you all have everything ever printed for Traveller ;-)
The line about "fairly well established" came from the fact that it is
mentioned in several different publications from Digest Group as well as (I
think) Robots.

My humble apologies to any and all that might gotten their feathers ruffles
by my posting.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:16:31 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

>Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:39:38 -0400
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
>> >Which, btw, could account for the huge sizes of CT computers...the
>> >computer itself is the size of, say, a PC-XT, but the shielding required
>> >to meet FCC regs for home use swell it to tons!
>Since when does a kiloton freighter qualify as a "home"?

I would expect that in most societies, lot's of people
get into regular contact with lot's of computers...

Moreover, there are a good number of people
living in their starship's (incl. nomads) , space stations,
and hostile environment complexes.  Places where you can't
use space to protect you  from harmful radiation, so
shielding is used instead.

For other newcomers, useful sites include...
http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.html
The Imperial Timeline

http://pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/libframe.htm
Library Data (Includes the Emperor's List, the list
of all reigning Emperor's of the Imperium)

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/
Interesting odd's and ends

http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/astro/astrogra.htm
Starmaps (are there other good map sites?)

http://www.missouri.edu/virtual/wordgen/
Missouri's language generator (Vilani words, etc)

One tidbit from the Traveller Library...

Soegz, Admiral
Admiral Soegz was a loyal supporter of Arbellatra in the final years of the
Civil War. He was elevated to Archduke of Antares by her decree, which
incidentally and simultaneously ordered the execution of the previous
archduke for the treason of not supporting her.

(FYI: The Archduke of Antares in 1115 IM. is Archduke Brzk, the
eight-generation
grandson of the Admiral Soegz, a vargr in the service of the Imperium.)

Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
And why did they start expanding to the stars?

Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:04:26 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In a message dated 98-08-05 17:52:07 EDT, you write:

<< Certainly, the
 Imperium would not tolerate life imprisonment at labor for jaywalking. >>

Or would they?  I just yesterday read in the Las Vegas Review-Journal
newspaper of a man sentencd to life in prison w/o parole for shoplifting
panties.  It was under the 3 strikes law in FL; he was a twice-convicted
felon.  Because the man had a penknife IN HIS POCKET at the time he was
apprehended, Robbery w/ a deadly weapon.  The employees of the store confirmed
the man never brandished or threatened to brandish the knife (blade was 4"
long, BTW)

Obviously the letter of the law...but the spirit?  Could this happen in the
Imperium? Is Imperial justice tempered w/ mercy?

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:13:52 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

>> If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human settled
>> worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when the
>> Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
>> viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...
>
>I think dogs and canines would be seen more as the Vargr equivalent of
>primates (pre-Proto-Vargr).  Are there people (outside of some animal rights
>nuts) who object to the "lil brothers" being in zoo's?  Course, w/ the
>Vargr... who can tell? ; )  Pets of the World, unite?
>
>Gary

I think that if humans wandered out in space and encountered an alien race
that curiously held Orangoutangs as pets on a leash and that these pets
were more or less everywhere. Not only were they extremely common, that had
also been breed to look like [CENSORED] (think about how ridicelous some
dog breeds look compared to the wolfs they descend from end you get my
meaning).

For the Vargr, that at least had to be their largest scientific puzzle ever
and remember that the Vargr today (1998) have interstellar empires of their
own while we Solomani cannot even get out of our balkanized state on our
homeplanet.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:09:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
>interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large part
>of IC manufacture.

I believe there are limitied numbers of materials that can bond/attach properly
to silicon and be used as direct connections on the chip itself. (Wasn't it
a big deal recently when a new process was annouced that would let (copper?)
be used?) 

Also, in a integrated-circuit world (as opposed to the bulky macroelectronics
Heinlein visualized), resitance of the wires isn't a crucial factor for
many applications relative to the performance/resitance/speed of the 
semiconductor parts involved. Only very small amounts of electricity have
to get shipped around; controlling the capacitance of the wires involved
is more important (and easier) than controlling the resistance. I suspect
that (since gold is softer than copper) gold wires would be harder to 
make in low-capacitance configurations than copper.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:23:38 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>Are we, Referee, sure Margaret allowed (I've heard it said she did
>more than *allow*) slavery, or are these more in the line of rumors?
>
>The impression I got, from what little Rebellion material I have, is
>that there was a lot of propaganda being tossed about by all sides.
>Accusing Margaret of slavery, given her background and area of space,
>would certainly have been effective propaganda even if it wasn't
>really true.
>
>
>Eris

I am leaning towards that she actually did allow slavery as she married
that asshole Tukera (proof of bad taste) and that she supposedly was
pregnat with Strephons child with a little help from her genedoctors and a
stolen bloodsample of the former Emperor.

Be that as it may


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:14:56 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off topic, but nice

In a message dated 98-08-05 21:45:15 EDT, you write:

<< My wife Margit delivered our first child, Jasper Carson, at 7 PM Tuesday
 (August 4th). It was a long labour, but of course it was all worth it in
 the end >>

Congratulations to you both!

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:19:47 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

>>[engaging deep meson sites]
>Of course, considering that you can hide a virtually unlimited number of
>forward observer posts with meson comms on an inhabited planet, 'engage the
>targeting systems' has limited meaning.

The targeting systems need to be a little more sophisticated than that - 
decent-sized PEMS would be medium-large telescopes at good sites. Since 
thermal sensitivity is low from a planets surface, they would have to be
fairly large to detect targets at fire-control levels from reflected
sunlight. 

That adds an interesting characteristic for strike cruisers: contrary to
what you might think, they'd actually be designed to be very stealthy,
in particular with Mil Ultrablack hulls, so that only large (easy-to-attack)
ground-based sensors can see them. 

I was also thinking (in reference to meson guns) of the concept of trying
to triangulate in on the meson gun by tracing back secondary emissions 
along its beam or as it strikes a meson screen. 

One could also look for the meson gun's grav pointing mechanism through
grav sensors, and its fusion plant (if it has one) through neutrino sensors,
and secondary emission as it fires through neutrino sensors, though both
would probably require being on the surface of the planet. (I should add
looking-for-meson-gun to my sensor rules and tweak it so that what you need
to do is get a sensor within a few tens of km - so that the Marines and/or
recon fighters have something to do.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 14:56:04 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Det Lasers

On 08/06/98 at 09:26 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
said:

>>[suggested number of hits for big targets with detlasers]

>>Gigantic        1,000,000+      625D6
>Clearly warheads don't carry an infinte number of rods. Since the
>rods are the most expensive part they probably don't even carry the
>4000-odd implied by the above.

>In fact, I'm not 100% sure where the assumption that there are many
>rods "spraying" a volume of space really comes from. Detonatin lasers
>go off at sufficiently short range that evasion isn't an issue; you'd
>only need a whole bunch of rods spraying empty space if (a) you can't
>aim them precisely enough (and you only need to aim within a
>microradian or so to hit a  100-ton ship at 10000km, which is within
>the limit of good mechanical tracking) or (b) the detonation disturbs
>the aim (marginally possible.) IN either caes I would tend to assume
>that a laser warhead has at most ten rods.

<Grumble! Grumble!>

Ok, I'm probably missing some piece of C@#$@n somewhere, but AFAIK,
the way det lasers are projected to work doesn't allow real aiming,
nor deploying, nor cones of attack.  They just shotgun space with
beams and count on numbers and luck to hit their targets.

As I understand the theory, a number of very thin rods are arranged in
a sphere around a nuclear device.  The rods extend out from near the
center of the sphere toward the surface, and as I understood it there
is a specific geometry into which they can be arranged.  

When the nuclear device detonates a portion of the energy goes into
all the rods and they destructively lase in the microsecond before
they are consumed by the nuclear explosion.  The laser beams project
from the device in all directions out from the sphere.  It should be
possible to only implant the rods into part of the sphere producing a
cone, or hemispheric effect, but I seriously doubt your device would
employ maneuvering rods in an effort to aim them toward some target.  

As for how many rods, I don't think anyone *knows* that, but I'd guess
the number is in the hundreds, not the thousands.

Additionally, and IMO, a det laser should have a random chance of
hitting *any* target in range, not just a specified target.  Of
course, targets occupying a larger arc of fire (closer and/or larger
targets) should have a greater chance of being hit, and/or hit more
times.

IIRC, det lasers have a 1 hex short range (30,000), so I suggest
something simplistic like...

 tons              Dice
 ===================================
 >100              +1d6
 100-999           +2d6
 1,000-9,999       +3d6
 10,000-99,999     +4d6
 100,000-999,999   +5d6
 <1,000,000        +6d6
 
 range     hexes   Dice
 ===================================
 same hex    0     +1d6
 short       1     -0d6
 medium      2     -1d6
 long       3-4    -2d6
 very long  5-8    -4d6
 extreme    9-16   -8d6
 
Example:  A det laser fires, and 5 ships are potentially in range, so
all five *might* be hit multiple times...

Target 1: 3,000 ton Midu in same hex:   
                +3d6+1d6 = (4 to 24 hits)  [7 hits]

Target 2:  60 ton Sprint fighter at short range:  
                +1d6-0d6 = (1 to 6 hits)   [4 hits]
                
Target 3: 57,000 ton Hume cruiser at medium range:
                +4d6-1d6 = (0 to 23 hits)  [13 hits]
                
Target 4: 300,000 ton Tigeress at long range:
                +5d6-2d6 = (0 to 28 hits)  [9 hits]

Target 5: 100,000 ton Plankwell at extreme range:
                +5d6-8d6 = (0 to 22 hits)  [0 hits]
                
If you let the det laser device get within short range of your
battlewagons they can do lots of damage, but if you defend in depth
and force the enemy to "detonate them or lose them" at longer ranges
they won't bother your big ships...but they'll EAT UP the screen out
front.

Doing det lasers this way also allows for the possibility that the
delivery device (ship, boat, fighter, deploying missile) is also in
range of the detonation and takes collateral damage.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:25:25 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In a message dated 98-08-06 05:52:32 EDT, you write:

<< How exactly do you engage a Deep Meson site? If you 
 don't know where it is, how can you figure that out? You 
 can't see the Mesons coming, so you can't triangulate.
  >>

Are densitometers still part of T4?  I use HG now myself, but it seems if
densitometers work according to MT, would you be able to detect the cavities
in the planets crust likely caused by the site?  Or has there been some change
in the way they are used?

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 06:07:11 -0500
From: Steve Dorfman <dorfman@ksu.edu>
Subject: Looking for 2300AD Stuff

Greetings,

I am looking for GDW Traveller 2300AD 2nd Edition Rule Set, Ships of the
French Arm (a module/source book) and Invasion (a module/source book).
If anyone can help please email me at dorfman@ksu.edu...thanks for the
help...Steve

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #722
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 723



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Nuke Dets
Re: Planetary Assault
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
Re: Battledress Breaker
Traveller World Builder Software
Re: Det Lasers
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Infantry Support Drones
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to  Walt Smith)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Det Lasers
Re: Infantry Support Drones
Exhaustive Rush through Imperial Economics, longish

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:29:16 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>>> Since when does a kiloton freighter qualify as a "home"?
>
>Bruce has a point.  In Traveller the ship is often home for the crew,
>and hotel for the passengers.  As such, there are going to be "all the
>conveniences of home" aboard, and shielding requirements similar to
>any home shielding requirements. 
>
>For my games, I postulated that gravitic technology produces fields
>that play "merry heck" with electronics anyway.  This means all
>electronics rated to work around gravitic devices are bigger, heavier,
>slower, more expensive.  
>
>Few planets are willing to forgo the use of grav tech. So when it is
>discovered, electronic devices stop shrinking and start getting larger
>and heavier. 
>
>That's my handwave anyway.
>
>Eris

I like this handwave.  Works for me!

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:33:13 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Nuke Dets

>My personal opinion (having served on a Frigate myself)
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow. I didn't even know Terra had a space navy yet! I gotta stop listening
to National Public Radio and find a more current news source. ;-)

What is the equivalent to a frigate in the Traveller universe, anyway? I
was always unclear on the differences between a escort, a frigate, and a
destroyer.

For that matter, does anyone have a military ship classification scheme
(types, duties, etc) that they would like to send me? I would be very
interested in seeing this.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:35:51 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault

>I'd like to see more on how to take a planet. Can you
>take a high-pop world that someone else wants to
>keep? (The answer probably depends on how much that
>someone else wants to keep it, and how much you're
>willing to break to get it.)

Something like Jewel ? in the FFW ? as long as you have COAC to 100
diamiters you keep the world.

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:57:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

>Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
>than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
>And why did they start expanding to the stars?

So they could kill there carnivorus oppressers who lived on there
homeworlds moon, and who came from the stars ....

>Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
>attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?

But humans can be vegitarian, lots are, omnivours aren't carnivores. Also
distance as you say and technological disadvantage probably.

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:17:26 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker

>>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Battledress Breaker
>>
>>I mean, sure, it'd *look* cool, but a PMPP is designed as a multiple use
>>weapon, and Im sure that a single-use explosive warhead would run much
>>cheaper.
>>
>
>*confused look* You mean you want more reasons, other than it looks cool ?

No, of course not.

A player of mine recently purchased a classical BFG type device; A "Plasma
Grenade Launcher".  Really its just a pump action, CPR projectile launcher,
the projectile happens to be a fair sized HEAP grenade that uses a fusion
reaction to create a jet of plasma energy that leaks a lot in other
directions.  All told, its not as efficient or effective as a grenade
launcher (but a bit safer at close range).

It was marketed to the guy as a "poor man's plasma gun".  It's hideously
heavy (the grenades are 20mm x 50mm, and heavy) has a five round magazine,
you have to *pump* it to reload, and it has a nasty recoil (there are no
compensators).

In combat last night he was afraid to use it since there was a hostage
somewhere in the big house they were assaulting.  He ended up using a 9mm
autopistol for all the 'wetwork'.  The primary function of his "poor man's
plasma gun" is intimidation value.

I am always amazed, though, when people propose expensive solutions where
cheap ones will do so well...when referring to deployed Impie (or U.S.)
military equipment.  Remember, military contracts go to the lowest bidder.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:52:30 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Traveller World Builder Software

Does anyone know of any Windows/DOS programs that will construct a Traveller
World based on the rules in the MT World Builder's Handbook?

A program is advertised in the book, but as the book was released in 1990,
does anyone know if this program is still available?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:39:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Det Lasers

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Ok, I'm probably missing some piece of C@#$@n somewhere, but AFAIK,
> the way det lasers are projected to work doesn't allow real aiming,
> nor deploying, nor cones of attack.  They just shotgun space with
> beams and count on numbers and luck to hit their targets.
>

This from distant memory of a ca. 1982-4 Av Week and Space Technology
article on the subject. (I'm sure of the date, because that's when I had
a roomie who got that magazine. A search through those three years of
issues should find it. Also 'smart pebbles' and other such things were
discussed at that time, as well as down firing antitank submunitions..)

But the original proposal was to have something like a dozen or so rods,
that were targettable, theory being that they couls hit several missiles
at once. A bunch of them aiming at the same flights of missiles would
probably get them.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:43:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 08/06/98 at 11:36 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
> >interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large
> >part of IC manufacture.
> 
> Umm...gold *was* (and still is) used.  There was enough of it, and
> other precious minerals, in some of the older systems to have made
> "mining" them before (and in some cases after) being sent to the junk
> yard economically viable.

Yes, as bus card contacts and traces on some circuitboards...I mean the
conductor interconnects at the IC level, where they're using Al now, and
Cu in the near future.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:50:02 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

alvin plummer wrote:

> Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
> than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
> And why did they start expanding to the stars?

very slowly, and they needed the space.
 
> Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
> attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?

Distance, lack of significant contact. Also, they expand extremely
slowly in any case, and they're still trying to figure out how the
Hivers did that horrific thing that they did to them, and probably
wondering if the Imperium can do it too, since the Imperium has had
greater contact with the Hivers than the K'Kree.

Also, though they're militant in their vegetarianism, they're not
dumb...the 3I is a big, nasty, heavily armed cactus pad to chew for the
Thousand Worlds. They probably realize they can't win.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:58:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Infantry Support Drones

I've been working on some ideas for Infantry Support Drones - TL12
robots, low-end gravitics, about as smart as a dog but carrying
around a PGMP-12 or somesuch. I figure they could replace the
heavy weapon man in a squad, especially in a high-threat
environment where the biggest gun in the squad attracts the most
enemy firepower.

The biggest problem is the brain. I make this too dumb, Company HQ
needs a Drone Director Robot to be the Master Brain to all the Slave
Brains in the Drones at squad level. I make it too smart, we spend
more on the brain than we'd spend on an APC. The first is only a
problem due to decapitation vulnerability - my vision was a Drone
that would respond to simple command sets from it's squad, like
"Follow with Pattern 12" (referring to a pre-planned shadowing procedure)
"Orient Mark 23, Target Movement, Fire!" (fire on whatever moves thataway)
...simple, pre-programmed tactics that the squad leader and assistant
squad leader (or a designated drone operator) would be trained to use
with the Drones.

To keep these cheap, I'd plan on making them pretty limited - optimized
to carry one heavy weapon and shoot it where the Sergeant tells them
to. Now if I can only make them inexpensive enough...most Sergeants
will just have an expendable human do the dangerous work, a robot
would cost too much to risk like that... 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:58:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
> >interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large part
> >of IC manufacture.
> 
> I believe there are limitied numbers of materials that can bond/attach properly
> to silicon and be used as direct connections on the chip itself. (Wasn't it
> a big deal recently when a new process was annouced that would let (copper?)
> be used?)

Yes, it's allowing much faster computers, using less power. Both Moto
and IBM are real close to, if not IN production with these devices.
 
> Also, in a integrated-circuit world (as opposed to the bulky macroelectronics
> Heinlein visualized), resitance of the wires isn't a crucial factor for
> many applications relative to the performance/resitance/speed of the
> semiconductor parts involved.

Not quite...this resistance is exactly why they were so thrilled to
figure out how to use copper instead of aluminum. The problem with
copper is that the Cu atoms 'leaked' and poisoned the semiconductor
parts. I think they have manufacture and seal the chip in a anaerobic
atmosphere as oxygen is a big part of the problem.

The heat that an ic chip generates is due to resistive heating; the
faster the chip runs, the more heat it generates, even at lower
voltages. If you can reduce the resistance of the ship, you can crank up
the speed.

> I suspect
> that (since gold is softer than copper) gold wires would be harder to
> make in low-capacitance configurations than copper.

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Softer metals are easier to draw
wires from. Gold has astonishing ductility, which is why you can, for
instance, make gold leaf, which you can't iirc, from any other metal, at
least not easily.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:18:59 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to  Walt Smith)

>
>alvin plummer wrote:
>
>> Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more 
>> conservative than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover
                                      ^^^^^^^^^
>> space flight? Why? And why did they start expanding to the 
>> stars?
>

This is a very, Very, VERY difficult question you propose.  In fact, it 
has puzzled the Imperial Scientific Community (ISC) for hundreds of 
years.  How could they [the K'kree] discover something on a world in 
another system, without already possessing similar capability.  The ISC 
have been postulating that the sensor ranges of the K'kree are highly 
advanced, beyond anything that the 3I has been able to field, or even 
hypothesize.  

The Tech Level of the K'kree sensor industry must therefore be 
incredible.  This also would explain why all expeditions into K'kree 
space have always been met by overwhelming force....  ;->

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:44:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

>
>> Snip
>> Greeting Gentlefolk of all varieties.
>> I guess by the number of posts that the David
>> Weber "Honor Harrington" Series of novels
>> is something of a hit with the list.
>
>She's got some bigtime fans here, that's for sure.

We Love our Honor! :-)

>> What of the other David Weber books or are 
>> there other series of equal or lesser interest but still 
>> noteworthy out there in reality?
>
> He did 3 in the 'Mutineers' Moon' series, where Luna (Earth's moon) was
> *REALLY* a Deathstar style destroyer of an ancient Empire, 
> captained by an American astronaut who...

These are a lot of fun... and if you thought missiles moving at a few
hundred Gs of accel are impressive...

Wait'll you get a load of some of the things the Imperial ships 
can do in this series...

He's done some other stuff as well, based in the <mindblank... TFG's other
starship game> universe, which he created with <another mindblank> And
he's done some fantasy as well, IIRC.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, will travel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 14:41:27 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Det Lasers

On 08/07/98 at 10:39 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>But the original proposal was to have something like a dozen or so
>rods, that were targettable, theory being that they couls hit several
>missiles at once. A bunch of them aiming at the same flights of
>missiles would probably get them.

Be that as it may, I still think that at Traveller ranges a more
shotgun approach, with *perhaps* a little rudimentary aiming, would
work better.
 
And even if it doesn't...I like my approach from a gaming standpoint.
The number of dice might need to adjusting, but I like the approach,
and it would be for one of MTU's anyway.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:04:26 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Infantry Support Drones

>I've been working on some ideas for Infantry Support Drones - TL12
>robots, low-end gravitics, about as smart as a dog but carrying
>around a PGMP-12 or somesuch. I figure they could replace the
>heavy weapon man in a squad, especially in a high-threat
>environment where the biggest gun in the squad attracts the most
>enemy firepower.
[snip]
>To keep these cheap, I'd plan on making them pretty limited - optimized
>to carry one heavy weapon and shoot it where the Sergeant tells them
>to. Now if I can only make them inexpensive enough...most Sergeants
>will just have an expendable human do the dangerous work, a robot
>would cost too much to risk like that...
>
>Walt Smith

I have a mercenary company in a current campaign (NPCs) who brought with
them a similar devie, but it was only for Recon (well...see below).  The
players liked it too.  Here's the stats from CT's Robots (using Andy
Akins's Robot Spreadsheet for design).

Drone Probe
Designed by Hyrshal Mechner, produced by Ling Standard Products.

Monitoring Probe      3320F-04-3B000-9F31   Cr217,650   122 kg
	Fuel=1.9    Duration= 0.5    TL=15    Thrust=400kg
	10/25 (mesh)

	2 v. light tentacles, 2 light tentacles
	2 visual sensors ( +tele +LI ), 2 audio sensors
	1 touch sensor

	1 power interface
	1 zero-g package, 1 slave unit
	1 radio (50km)
	1 video recorder (2D)

	electronic circuit protection

A 50 Liter Sphere that zips about at around 2.3 G, quite dumb (mostly human
controlled and monitored...or from a ship's computer).  At 200kcr, only
marginally expendable.

The brain, such as it is, is only 6400.  It's the Grav that costs so much;
180,000 credits!  With 4 legs instead of Grav, this item costs only 45k or
so, now *that's* expendable.  Unfortunately, that's not very manuverable or
versatile.  ACV and heavier grav take too much space.

The original design was for a security robot that patrolled a given area
and reported any anomolies.  The light tentacles could theoretically hold a
pistol-like weapon, but it was not designed to be armed - shooting things
is something humans do.  In fact, the brain isn't big enough to have
firearms skill.

At 2.3 G, however, this device can do some serious damage to a human if it
can run up a bit.  Of course, with no real armor, an NPC filled it with 9mm
rounds and took it out pretty easy last night.

A ramped up version, with armor and weapons, would probably need to be
pretty big, perhaps based on a grav bike chassis.  at 50 liters I was
having a lot of trouble getting a viable design.  Any real brain capability
starts adding up pretty fast too.  Here's one swipe;

Sgt Rock
Designed by Hyrshal Mechner, produced by Ling Standard Products.

Combat Recon Robot      6440F-L3-PQ3210-PFC8(M)   Cr2,971,875   655 kg

	Fuel=2    Duration= 0.3    TL=15    Thrust=2600kg
	30/75 (combat w/reflec)
	2 med arms
	1 light tentacle
	2 visual sensors ( +tele +LI +PIR ), 2 audio sensors ( +sen ), 1
olfactory sensor
	1 voder, 1 touch sensor
	1 magnetic sensor, 1 radiation sensor, 1 mass sensor, 1 neutrino
sensor
	1 spotlight, 1 speaker, 1 power interface, 1 brain interface, 1
program interface
	1 zero-g package
	2 radios (500km), 1 ECM
	1 obscuration device, 1 video recorder (2D)


	electronic circuit protection
	1 gauss rifle
	2 PGMP-12s
	1 RAM auto grenade launcher
	Navigator-2, Grav Vehicle-4
	Communications-1
	Forward Observer-3, Tactics-2
	Recon-3
	Weapon Handling-2
	Security-1, Infantry Ground Combat-2, Armor Ground Combat-2

This Robot has a real brain, travels at just shy of 3G (Shouldn't there be
avionics in these things?) has a passel of skills, can operate
autonomously, has a full blown sensor package, and a nasty weapon package
(I would have added externally mounted tac missiles if possible).  This
design is 150 liters.

Of course, at Mcr.3 you can almost buy a tank for the same price.

The main cost items are 1.1 Mcr for the Grav, and 1.6 Mcr for the brain.

With a little fiddling I found I can fit the same stuff in a 350 liter
chassis with "Heavy" grav units and save about a Mcr.  Those "light" grav
modules are sure expensive.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: 07 Aug 1998 16:11 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Exhaustive Rush through Imperial Economics, longish

Gentle and kind Travellers,

If you are inclined to look at my humble calculations and reasoning,
please do so.  I am working toward a Unified Theory of Imperial
Economics, to help explain MTU.  I came up with some numbers that
surprised me, but then again, a lot of this is wild guesswork.

Summary: 

   1. A _military_ per-person income tax of 2.5% (or so) works just 
      fine for supporting the Imperial military.

   2. Interstellar trade is small potatoes compared to in-system industry.

   3. Interstellar piracy is therefore rare, but also does not
      receive much attention, since most of the money doesn't leave
      the major systems.

Rob "Rave On" Eaglestone
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

- --

An Exhaustive Rush through Imperial Economics (in under 200 lines)

The economic strength of the entire Imperium, and therefore of its
members, can be approximated IMTU by looking at military strength,
interstellar traffic, and system industry.  Moreover, the derived
numbers can also shed some light on Imperial policies, including system
patrols and taxes... and maybe piracy.

Military Strength

The first hurdle to clear is military strength. We're given
outlines of what the battleship elements of fleets look like, and from
there we must approximate costs for assault groups, support ships,
depots, and patrol ship squadrons (why not?)

A depot is like a starport big enough to handle an entire fleet: that
is, about 1 billion tons of repair and fuel at any one time.  Here's
a starport large enough to be a depot:

   Downport components:
   Airstrips:      2494 (MCr 24.94)
   Shuttles:       9623
   Parkbays:      38309 (MCr 3830.9)
   Fuel:       41658700 (MCr 416587)
   Repair:       416587 (MCr 41658.700000000004)
   Build:      41658700 (MCr 4165870)
   Admin, mtc, tower cost: BCr 6941.96
   Groundport total cost:  BCr 11569.93

   Orbital components:
   Shuttle ports:           4812 (MCr 48120)
   Berth capacity(td):  91191040 (MCr 91191040)
   Fuel(td):           227977600 (MCr 22797760)
   Repair(td/year):    911910400 (MCr 91191040)
   Build(td/year):      91191040 (MCr 91191040)
   Admin, mtc, tower cost: BCr 444628.51
   Orbital total cost:     BCr 741047.51
   --
   Total Cost:             BCr 752618

FLEET MILITARY STRENGTH

Note:
I'll round numbers off in most cases.

   Battle Element:   942 ships,  760 mT,   TCr  380 ( BCr500 per mT )
   Assault Groups:   100 ships,  500 kT,   BCr  100 ( BCr200 per mT )
   Support Ships :   500 ships,  200 mT,   TCr   20 ( BCr100 per mT )
   Patrol Ships  :   100 ships,   50 kT,   BCr   50 ( TCr1   per mT )
   -------------------------------------------------------------------
   Subtotal      :  1642 ships,  960 mT,   TCr  400 ( BCr400 per mT )
   x 20 fleets   : 32840 ships, 19.2 bT,   TCr 8000
   + 5 depots    :                         TCr 4000
   -------------------------------------------------------------------
   Total                                   TCr12000

Maintenance is 2% of the value of the equipment per year:     TCr 240
Payments on this equipment (which includes mothballed
reserves, decommissioning, upgrades, and new orders) is
4% equipment value per year:                                  TCr 480

Interstellar Traffic

This involves approximating all possible trade between all possible
worlds in the Imperium.  This workspace can be trimmed by only considering
trade between neighbor worlds and important worlds; however, the task
remains daunting.  With less hard data, assumptions here are dangerous;
on the other hand, freedom to make up numbers means the referee may
tailor the results to fit YTU.

Average pair of Imperial worlds:
   Starport B, Population 8, TL 13, X-Boat Route or Base or Gas Giant
   Starport C, Population 7, TL 11, Gas Giant
   Average trade indices = 8 and 5
   Average distance from neighbor world = 1 parsec.
   So, traffic between average worlds (indices 7 and 4) is:
        1620 passengers per week,    6480 tons of freight per week.
        x 52 weeks per year          x 52
    --------------------------------------------------------------
      84,240 passengers per year, 336,960 tons of freight per year.
      x KCr6 per passenger         x KCr1 per ton,
    --------------------------------------------------------------
      MCr505 per year     +        MCr337 per year = MCr 842 per world per year

By the way, it looks like starports of this size will overhaul
the equivalent of one 1000-ton ship per week.  If the price of
such an overhaul is, say, MCr0.2, then this boosts yearly revenue
by MCr10, to MCr 852.
                                                     MCr 852 per world per yr.
                                                    x 11,000 worlds
                                                  ----------------
                                                     TCr 9.4 per year

Starport Costs

Starports cost money to build and maintain.  Since the best way to
buy a starport is to finance it, I assume banks look at starports
like big non-mobile spaceships: about 4% of its cost per year in
payments and maintenance, salaries, etc.

   Average Interstellar Starport:
   Ships arriving (landing) per week: 64 (50)
   Tonnage: 30000 (16800) per week
   Passengers: 1620 (734) per week (etc)

   08 (00)    x 1400td 800 passengers
   020 (018)  x  600td 600 passengers
   016 (014)  x  300td 160 passengers
   020 (018)  x  100td 60 passengers

   Downport components:
   Airstrips:         1 (MCr 0.01)
   Shuttles:          1
   Parkbays:          5 (MCr .5)
   Fuel:           5000 (MCr 50)
   Repair:           50 (MCr 5)
   Build:          5000 (MCr 500)
   Admin, mtc, tower cost: BCr 2.82
   Groundport total cost:  BCr 4.7

   Orbital components:
   Shuttle ports:              1 (MCr 10)
   Berth capacity(td):      1320 (MCr 1320)
   Fuel(td):                3300 (MCr 330)
   Repair(td/year):        13200 (MCr 1320)
   Build(td/year):          1320 (MCr 1320)
   Admin, mtc, tower cost: BCr 6.46
   Orbital total cost:     BCr 10.76
   ----------------------------------------
   Total Cost:             BCr 16

The average starport, then, costs 16 billion credits.  The yearly
expenses would work out to MCr 640.  For 11,000 worlds, then, the
yearly cost is perhaps around TCr7.

System Industry

This is approximated by calculating the average world profile and
figuring out the GWP.  This has already been done, but I'll do it
here with wild generalizations just for fun.  I'll use the Pocket
Empires economic model to calculate currency value and validate
my GWP estimates for the world types I chose.

Average Imperial worlds:
   Starport B, Population 8, TL13: RU = 16;  currency value = 75%
      GWP = 500,000,000 x Cr10,000 x 0.75
          = TCrImp 3.75
   Starport C, Population 7, TL11: RU = 1.4; currency value = 63%
      GWP = 50,000,000 x Cr10,000 x 0.63
          = BCr 315
   Average GWP  =      TCr2 per world per year
                x    11,000 worlds
                ------------------
   Imperial GWP = TCr22,000 per year

Conclusions

For equipment alone, the military alone needs TCr480 per year from the
Imperial coffers.  This represents a per-person income tax of about
2.5%.  This is a very comfortable and familiar number, and I think it
is in the range proposed before.  In comparison, interstellar traffic
is small potatoes, and the revenue generated is probably around 30%
greater than the cost of maintaining the starports.

This supports the idea that Naval bases can easily double the size of
a starport.  Moreover, it seems that since interstellar trade is so
small a percentage of the GWP of the Imperium, there is more effort to
patrol the world surfaces themselves than patrol space, and thus in
frontier sectors piracy may well thrive.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #723
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 724



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Nuke Dets
Re: Traveller World Builder Software
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Det. Lasers - Shotgun Approach
Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Status of Starship Operators Manual Spreadsheet
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Test Email - Ignore Me
Interstellar Trade
Re: Interstellar Trade 
Re: Infantry Support Drones
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Scouts and Jump Routes
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:27:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Nuke Dets

>What is the equivalent to a frigate in the Traveller universe, anyway? I
>was always unclear on the differences between a escort, a frigate, and a
>destroyer.

These terms are pretty fuzzy even in the Real World. (Remember the 
Great Frigate Reclassification in which the USN suddenly discovered that 
half the ships it had been calling "Frigates" were really cruisers?)
In current USN useage, a "frigate" is a smaller, slightly slower, ship
optimized for escort duty (especially escort of transports/convoys),
with mostly ant-submarine equipment. A "destroyer" is a larger and 
faster vessel capable of keeping up with the carrier battle groups, still
optimized for escort (either ASW or anti-air.) A "cruiser" is an even bigger
or more capable escort vessel. (Of course, anomalies occur; the 
Ticonderoga-class Aegis "cruisers" are built on almost exactly the same 
hull as the Spruance-class "destroyers".) 

In the Imperial Navy, a "destroyer" seems to be a 1000-5000 ton vessel
optimized for general-purpose combat against other light vessels. "Escort"
can mean either a much smaller patrol ship (the Gazelle) or a slightly 
larger warship intended to protect fleet elements from small ships and
fighters (the P.F. Sloan). In my mind the difference between an 
"Fleet Escort" and a "Destroyer" is that the Destroyers (like the Midu)
are designed to operate independtly if necessary. 

The Imperial Navy doesn't seem to use "Frigate".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:26:34 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Builder Software

"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:

>Does anyone know of any Windows/DOS programs that will construct a
Traveller
>World based on the rules in the MT World Builder's Handbook?

I don't know of any that currently exist (but that means very
little)...however, I am currently working on some code that does just this.
I have no timetable for its release, since real life (job, wife, son) often
interferes with the coding :)

If you want to learn more about the project in general, and it's current
state (there is actually stuff to run! Wheeeeee! ) go to:

http://www.ames.net/igor/traveller

And go to the IDEX section.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:30:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>> I suspect
>> that (since gold is softer than copper) gold wires would be harder to
>> make in low-capacitance configurations than copper.
>Actually, the exact opposite is true. Softer metals are easier to draw
>wires from.

I was thinking of things like ultra-high-speed semi-rigid cables, which 
rely on the material to provide some of their strength - admittedly not
in common useage yet.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:43:42 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Det. Lasers - Shotgun Approach

I like this take on det. lasers -- it once again makes missles a
credible threat to military vessels, and at the same time is completely
reasonable.  I for one will adopt it IMTU.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:55:31 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

Now that I have thought about the subject, I'm having trouble
understanding how a fuel purification plant is supposed to work.  Jump
fuel is LH2, right?  Liquid hydrogen?  And unpurified fuel is either
water or what you can scoop from a gas giant, which I presume is gaseous
H2 with lots of other gases as impurities, right?

So, OK, let's assume you fill your tank with water, and run your
purifier.  That means you must take water out of the tank, crack it,
vent the O2, and put the H2 right back in the same tank.  You have to
keep doing this until there's nothing but pure H2 left in your tank,
then I suppose you liquify it.  And you are supposed to end up with a
full tank of LH2, sufficient for your jump drive.  Huh?

Or you start with a tank full of (presurized, I suppose) GG scoopings. 
Now you're supposed to separate the good H2 from the bad impurities,
vent the impurities, liquify the H2, and again end up with a tank full
of LH2.  Hmmm...

Did I miss something, or is this whole process just one of those
handwaves we have to accept?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:01:59 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Status of Starship Operators Manual Spreadsheet

I've sent out SOpM to several people for a first peek.  Once I hear back
from them, I'll take up one or more of the offers to host it on a web
site, then let the entire list know where it can be found.  *** PLEASE
NOTE *** that this is a Quatro Pro 8 spreadsheet.  If there is
sufficient interest in an Excel version, I'll see if I can find someone
to translate it for me.

For the next version, I'm seriously considering adding a worksheet to
handle all the calculations for Bruce Macintosh's Definitive Sensor
Rules.  Then, as time permits, I'll try to add other niceties associated
with operating a starship.

Quiz next week!  Any questions?  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:04:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

> >Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
> >than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
> >And why did they start expanding to the stars?
> 
> So they could kill there carnivorus oppressers who lived on there
> homeworlds moon, and who came from the stars ....
> 
> >Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
> >attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?
> 
> But humans can be vegitarian, lots are, omnivours aren't carnivores. Also
> distance as you say and technological disadvantage probably.

Keep in mind also that they ran into the Hivers over a world of sentient carnivores.  The K'kree were in the process of gearing up to wipe 'em out, the Hivers were going to uplift them into the Hiver Confed.  War broke out, which ended when the K'kree found out what the Hivers had in mind for uplifting *THEM*.

Personally, I'd *LOVE* to see the documents on *that* plan.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:14:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

> >
> >alvin plummer wrote:
> >
> >> Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more 
> >> conservative than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^
> >> space flight? Why? And why did they start expanding to the 
> >> stars?
> >
> 
> This is a very, Very, VERY difficult question you propose.  In fact, it 
> has puzzled the Imperial Scientific Community (ISC) for hundreds of 
> years.  How could they [the K'kree] discover something on a world in 
> another system, without already possessing similar capability.  The ISC 
> have been postulating that the sensor ranges of the K'kree are highly 
> advanced, beyond anything that the 3I has been able to field, or even 
> hypothesize.  

OK, I'm gonna ignore the smiley mode.  The original flights were to the moon 
of the K'kree homeworld, when they somehow or other determined that there were 
intelligent carnivores on that moon that could concievably be a threat to 
them.  So they developed spaceflight to take them out.

> The Tech Level of the K'kree sensor industry must therefore be 
> incredible.  This also would explain why all expeditions into K'kree 
> space have always been met by overwhelming force....  ;->

Heh.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 16:35:41 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

On 08/07/98 at 04:55 PM,  Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> said:

>Now that I have thought about the subject, I'm having trouble
>understanding how a fuel purification plant is supposed to work. 
>Jump fuel is LH2, right?  Liquid hydrogen?  And unpurified fuel is
>either water or what you can scoop from a gas giant, which I presume
>is gaseous H2 with lots of other gases as impurities, right?

Right.

>So, OK, let's assume you fill your tank with water, and run your
>purifier.  That means you must take water out of the tank, crack it,
>vent the O2, and put the H2 right back in the same tank.  You have to
>keep doing this until there's nothing but pure H2 left in your tank,
>then I suppose you liquify it.  And you are supposed to end up with a
>full tank of LH2, sufficient for your jump drive.  Huh?

Yeah, this has come up before. ;-> 

>Or you start with a tank full of (presurized, I suppose) GG
>scoopings.  Now you're supposed to separate the good H2 from the bad
>impurities, vent the impurities, liquify the H2, and again end up
>with a tank full of LH2.  Hmmm...

Different people have different takes on it, but IMTU the ship can't
"load and scoot," purifying on the way.  It has to stick around the GG
or sit on the water while the purification process takes place.  Oh
and the tanks are compartmentalized, so you can fill them small
portions at a time, that helps.

For water refueling, your ship sits there running the water through
the Unit, storing the H2 and venting the O2, for the number of hours
it takes to fill your tanks with hydroden.  It can dip and go
elsewhere to refine, but it would have to make several dips if it
does. That's an ineffeicent way to do it.

For GG refueling, you ship either makes a number of fast
(hypersonic) passes, slow (subsonic) passes, or loiters in the upper
atmosphere (trey dangerous) collecting unrefined gas.  Generally,
the ship refines it's load, extracting and filling a few fuel
compartments, venting the rest.  Then it makes another pass,
followed by refining, followed by...etc.  Doing it this way, you run
into diminishing returns as the tanks begin to fill with refined
fuel and each pass returns less and less refined fuel.

That's why IMTU the slow pass/loiter method is preferred.  With the
slow pass/loiter the ship refines as it goes through the atmosphere.

Of course, I can name you three or four folks on the list that
scream bloody murder at the very idea of loitering in the atmosphere
of a GG.  ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:20:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

Well, I've been in this argument before. Some of us (me) beleive that the
process of fuel scooping, either from a GG or from H2O is a slow process.
IMTU a ship spends as much time in atmosphere, or resting on a lake, river
etc. as it takes to purify the fuel. As the fuel is scooped, it runs through
various catalytic purifiers that seperate the elements, discarding the
unused material (some oxygen is syphoned off to life support), the processed
hydrogen is compressed and saved to fuel tankage.

This can be done in stages by "dipping" into a GG atmosphere, scooping and
processing as you go. In this method a number of such trips must be made
until the total time in atmosphere equals the process time. On the other
hand a ship can ride in atmosphere of CG and "troll" for a time period equal
to the processing time.

Trolling for fuel has become a minor tourist attraction with some of the
higher class passenger/luxury liners.

Draw backs include the lack of manuverability while "trolling" that leave
ships open to attack.

Again, this is just how I do it IMTU, by no means a canon opinion.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
To: TML <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 5:05 PM
Subject: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?


>Now that I have thought about the subject, I'm having trouble
>understanding how a fuel purification plant is supposed to work.  Jump
>fuel is LH2, right?  Liquid hydrogen?  And unpurified fuel is either
>water or what you can scoop from a gas giant, which I presume is gaseous
>H2 with lots of other gases as impurities, right?
>
>So, OK, let's assume you fill your tank with water, and run your
>purifier.  That means you must take water out of the tank, crack it,
>vent the O2, and put the H2 right back in the same tank.  You have to
>keep doing this until there's nothing but pure H2 left in your tank,
>then I suppose you liquify it.  And you are supposed to end up with a
>full tank of LH2, sufficient for your jump drive.  Huh?
>
>Or you start with a tank full of (presurized, I suppose) GG scoopings.
>Now you're supposed to separate the good H2 from the bad impurities,
>vent the impurities, liquify the H2, and again end up with a tank full
>of LH2.  Hmmm...
>
>Did I miss something, or is this whole process just one of those
>handwaves we have to accept?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:51:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

>Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
>attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance? 

There is a big rift in the way.  They one route around is
blocked by the Hivers (who they tried to take over and
failed).  The other way is through the Vargr Extents.
Presumably the only reason they haven't attacked the Vargr
is that there is only one J-4 route there.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:54:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> >Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
> >attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?
> 
> There is a big rift in the way.  They one route around is
> blocked by the Hivers (who they tried to take over and
> failed).  The other way is through the Vargr Extents.
> Presumably the only reason they haven't attacked the Vargr
> is that there is only one J-4 route there.

And the Vargr herded them away from it? ...sorry, I couldn't resist...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:48:40
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Exhaustive Rush through Imperial Economics, longish
>
>Interstellar Traffic
>
>This involves approximating all possible trade between all possible
>worlds in the Imperium.  This workspace can be trimmed by only considering
>trade between neighbor worlds and important worlds; however, the task
>remains daunting.  With less hard data, assumptions here are dangerous;
>on the other hand, freedom to make up numbers means the referee may
>tailor the results to fit YTU.

This analysis is really cool stuff, but it has the problem that it is
working with the existing Traveller trade rules, which are solely designed
to deal with itinerant free traders.

When you either scale them up ('I want to buy 2 million tons of B12 Hi Ind,
take them 2 jump 3s and sell them for gazillions profit') or scale them
down ('What the heck is B12 Hi Ind, seeing as it costs Cr 300 per cubic
meter ? And how many FGMP-12s can you fit into a displacement ton, anyway
?'), they break. Badly.

Scaling them up runs into diminishing returns - you mightnt have a problem
picking up 400 tons or so of ore once from a pop-5000 Belter colony, but if
you want 2 000 tons a week, then they are probably going to try and charge
more.

There is also the efficiency increase gained from regularily scheduled
routes - people will be more inclined to sell offworld when they know that
a ship will turn up every week, give or take a day.

There might be a solution hiding in the PE rules - take the GWP increase
from Finished Goods Trade as being the Interstellar Traded Goods sector.

This means an A starport world would have a traded sector of about 40% of
the economy, which is a bit much. B and C starports are more reasonable, at
about 33% and about 12%. These numbers strike me as being too high.
Personally, I think the numbers should be 10% traded for A, 5% traded for B
and 2% traded for C starport worlds.

The other solution is my previous approach under GUTTT, which essentially
proposed for every Cr 1000 profit you could make under the vanilla Trade
rules, 1% of GDP would be dedicated to that. It then added some
higher-value goods, and a super-value luxury goods, and tried to compensate
for current-account deficits (lo-tech worlds run chronic trade deficits
under the vanilla Traveller trade rules).

Of course, this assumed we could make a map of all viable trade routes in
the Imperium, which an insane amount of work. 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 18:09:00 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Test Email - Ignore Me

At 04:15 PM 8/6/98 , David.Smart@ons.octel.com wrote:
>Just got forced at work to change to MS Outlook (gakh). Wanted to confirm it
>wouldn't mess up the TML.

You have my deepest sympathies I am forced to use Outlook at work I much
rather have Eudora. So far no MicroSquissy rtf attachements on this message.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 01:02:49
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Interstellar Trade

The way I see it, there are two seperate driving forces behind interstellar
trade.

The first one is specialisiation and exchange. Imagine a good that has
economies of scale in production, but a world only needs 10 of them in a
year. Imagine it's a displacement ton big and very expensive (a
megacredit), and that for every 10 you make you get a 1% volume discount.

If ten worlds each build their own, then they all get a 1% discount, so
they cost KCr 990 each. But if one world builds all 100 for the ten worlds,
then it gets a 10% discount, and can thus build them for KCr 900. Therefore
it could sell them to the other worlds for KCr 955 each, spend KCr 20
shipping them and still make a profit of KCr 35 each. Assuming that the
other worlds have something they can sell back to this world, everybody
profits.

The second one is the desire for luxury goods from far away. I'll use a
real world example. In Sydney, there is a beer, Sheaf Stout, drunk by 60
year old alcoholics, and me. It's so low on the social scale of beers most
pubs dont serve it (they serve Guinness or Coopers Stout, if they serve a
stout). In San Francisco, according to Charles Haynes, a yuppie acquantance
of mine, the yuppie bars serve this very very expensive Australian boutique
beer. Sheaf Stout.

Now, when you are dealing with luxury goods, you can fit a lot into 14
cubic meters. If you assume a fair amount of disposable income, a lot of
people are going to have 10 credits a month for something special. And a
fair chunk of that money, if people are so inclined, will go to luxuries
from other worlds (10 credits a liter turns into a very chunky Cr 140 000 a
displacement ton).

The standard trade system deals well with specialisation and exchnage type
trade. As far as I can see it, the drivers for the second sort of trade a
very different - essentially we could tie it to a worlds's culture and
disposable income, and it is almost completely unrelated to technology. A
world that is full of people who like new and different experiences is
probably going to be a better bet for selling luxury goods to than some
cheerless stronghold of Industrial Puritanism. Although the second world
might be a really, really good place to buy
fashionable-if-appallingly-retro clothing for export back to world one.

Income distributions should affect things as well - a world where the many
are poor and the few are rich is going to be better for very high value
luxuries, while a world with a prosperous working class is going to have a
mass market in low-value luxuries.

Finally, dont discount the Veteren's Market. 20 year veterens get paid
Imperial Pensions in Imperial Credits, so if these people retire back to
their dirtball homeworlds in the boondocks, then they are going to provide
a small but viable market for offworld luxuries.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 20:31:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade 

> The second one is the desire for luxury goods from far away. I'll use a
> real world example. In Sydney, there is a beer, Sheaf Stout, drunk by 60
> year old alcoholics, and me. It's so low on the social scale of beers most
> pubs dont serve it (they serve Guinness or Coopers Stout, if they serve a
> stout). In San Francisco, according to Charles Haynes, a yuppie acquantance
> of mine, the yuppie bars serve this very very expensive Australian boutique
> beer. Sheaf Stout.

Remind me to send a few kegs of an American cowboy staple thataway.  We call it Colt 45.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:40:39 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Infantry Support Drones

On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:58:17 -0400, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
wrote:

>I've been working on some ideas for Infantry Support Drones - TL12
>robots, low-end gravitics, about as smart as a dog but carrying
>around a PGMP-12 or somesuch. I figure they could replace the
>heavy weapon man in a squad, especially in a high-threat
>environment where the biggest gun in the squad attracts the most
>enemy firepower.
>
>The biggest problem is the brain. I make this too dumb, Company HQ
>needs a Drone Director Robot to be the Master Brain to all the Slave
>Brains in the Drones at squad level. I make it too smart, we spend
>more on the brain than we'd spend on an APC. The first is only a
>problem due to decapitation vulnerability - my vision was a Drone
>that would respond to simple command sets from it's squad, like
>"Follow with Pattern 12" (referring to a pre-planned shadowing procedure)
>"Orient Mark 23, Target Movement, Fire!" (fire on whatever moves thataway)
>...simple, pre-programmed tactics that the squad leader and assistant
>squad leader (or a designated drone operator) would be trained to use
>with the Drones.
>
>To keep these cheap, I'd plan on making them pretty limited - optimized
>to carry one heavy weapon and shoot it where the Sergeant tells them
>to. Now if I can only make them inexpensive enough...most Sergeants
>will just have an expendable human do the dangerous work, a robot
>would cost too much to risk like that... 
>
>Walt Smith

This sounds a lot like the "Heavy Weapons Platforms" (robot tanks, both
conventional and gravitic) found in the X-COM computer games.  Each is
maybe the size of a golf cart and equipped with a brain that can follow 
simple commands (in the game, you control them just like your other
soldiers).

For a story treatment showing how these tanks are supposed to work, see
Russ Brown's X-COM SAGA or the sequel by Larry Mann, both accessible on
the web at http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/3169/kansai.htm



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:13:10 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> > Well, what if you claim your slaves as dependents under the Imperial taxation laws?  When you
> > buy said slave, you instead call it adopting and then you meddle with a few of the child
> > labor laws... Voila! de facto slavery.
>
> Slavery is illegal in the Imperium.  There is absolutely no question about that.
> What constitutes slavery is very clear: sophonts as personal property against their will.
>
> The question for Traveller purposes is not whether one behavior is slavery or not.
> The question is, can you get away with illegal slavery in the Imperium.
> The answer to that is certainly "yes."
>
> For the Imperium to prosecute slavery, several things must happen.
> They must have:
> - awareness of the slavery,
> - the will to prosecute it, and
> - the resources to prosecute it.
>
> For a multitude of reasons, the Imperium may not be able or willing to treat
> all cases of slavery uniformly.
>
> If a given situation is not clearly slavery, i.e., indentured servitude, etc.,
> the Imperium may be unwilling to prosecute it.
> If its a backwater planet with little significance to the Imperium, they may
> not have the resources in the position to prosecute it.
> If an enslaved race is not clearly a sophont race, at least to the Imperium's
> knowledge, they have nothing to prosecute.
>
> That slavery is illegal by Imperium law, wherever found within the Imperium,
> is simply not a question.

The problem I have with this is that you'd have to be a completely inept MORON to NOT figure out a
way to skirt the Imperial Slavery Laws.
1. Ship slaves in low births.  There's nobody to question if the Navy pulls you over for speeding.
2. Don't call it Buying/Selling slaves, simply call it passage and recruiting fees.
3. Force all "recruits" to sign trainee contracts whereby they are learning a trade and have their
food and lodging supplied by the "employer"
4. Control the life of trainees so they don't complain by some means. Addiction to a drug.
Restriction to pressurized locations on vacuum planets.  Give them a disease that need regular
treatments.  "Training Collars".  Brain washing.  Hold family hostage. The list goes on and on...

Now I'm sure it looks nice on the books to SAY that Slavery is illegal in the Imperium. But anybody
smart enough to run a ship should be smart enough to skirt the issue.  That makes it nigh
impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they COULD drop out of the sky
and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.  And if the law was written in such
a way that it would stick, it would also cover ALL of those exploitation cases.  Which is bad for
business.  What's bad for business is bad for taxes.  What's bad for taxes is bad for the
Imperium.  What's bad for the Imperium tends to be ignored by those in power to such an extent that
it is no longer bad... etc. etc.

I've heard that 10,000 Cr is the average annual wage for an Imperial citizen.  I would venture to
say that it costs more than that to support a person on anything but lush world.  Thus slaves would
be better off than free men.  At least they know where their next meal is coming from.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:00:52 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scouts and Jump Routes

Hi-
  I'm considering a campaign where ships can't just point their nose at a far
star and blast off; rather jump routes require extensive mapping. Most would
be accomplished by the ISSC, adding significantly to their importance, and
then made available for computer download (a modest fee for all currently
known subsector routes, paid once by a starship for each subsector it visits).
MegaCorps might also maintain privately charted routes as trade secrets (maybe
a Jump-3 which cuts several Jump-1's off a main) as might those pesky pirates
keep secret the jump route to their hidden base.
   The obvious hook to this is that discovering/pioneering a new route would
be very lucretive (sell it to a MegaCorp or receive some standing reward from
the ISSC) Of course, it would also be very hazardous with a high risk of
misjump or simply disappearing into jump space never to be seen again. You
might also run afoul the MegaCorp or pirate willing to spend a missile on you
rather than lose their exclusive on the route.
   My thoughts are to set up a formula for both the odds of success and the
value of a new route. For the first, negative modifiers might be jump length
or time since your last overhaul. Positive modifiers could be pilot and nav
skills, pre-knowledge of the systems at either end, or equipment such as TNE
Exploration/Survey Electronics Package.
   On the value of the route, things such as trade factors, jump length,
planet viability, population, or tech level come to mind.

   So- has this already been done; i.e., where would I look for the info? Or
would anyone like to toss out some ideas?

   Jay LaRosee 
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:13:21 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?


>Different people have different takes on it, but IMTU the ship can't
>"load and scoot," purifying on the way.  It has to stick around the GG
>or sit on the water while the purification process takes place.  Oh
>and the tanks are compartmentalized, so you can fill them small
>portions at a time, that helps.
>
>For water refueling, your ship sits there running the water through
>the Unit, storing the H2 and venting the O2, for the number of hours
>it takes to fill your tanks with hydroden.  It can dip and go
>elsewhere to refine, but it would have to make several dips if it
>does. That's an ineffeicent way to do it.
>
>For GG refueling, you ship either makes a number of fast
>(hypersonic) passes, slow (subsonic) passes, or loiters in the upper
>atmosphere (trey dangerous) collecting unrefined gas.  Generally,
>the ship refines it's load, extracting and filling a few fuel
>compartments, venting the rest.  Then it makes another pass,
>followed by refining, followed by...etc.  Doing it this way, you run
>into diminishing returns as the tanks begin to fill with refined
>fuel and each pass returns less and less refined fuel.
>
>That's why IMTU the slow pass/loiter method is preferred.  With the
>slow pass/loiter the ship refines as it goes through the atmosphere.
>
>Of course, I can name you three or four folks on the list that
>scream bloody murder at the very idea of loitering in the atmosphere
>of a GG.  ;->
>
>
Hey, Eris,

You bet me by minutes, with virtually identical posts (yours was more
detailed!). Does that make me an official HERITIC-in-training?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #724
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 725



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Infantry Support Drones
Frigates, destroyers, Cruisers, Oh my
Re: Slavery
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Slavery
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Traveller World Builder Software
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters) 
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:42:35 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Infantry Support Drones

Hi-
Walter Smith posted- (snipped)
"To keep these cheap, I'd plan on making them pretty limited"


Private:		"Sarge, there's enemy troops all around us."
Sarge:		"Alright, action at last- we'll test this new-fangled drone they gave
us. Drone-   
      		 kill anything that moves!"
Private:		"No Sarge!!! Don't give orders like that! Arrhg..... (death rattle
of dying private.)
Sarge:		"Wait, wait, I meant anything that moves EXCEPT us. Arrhg.......
Drone:		"Do you have any follow on orders, Sergeant? Sergeant, shall I repeat
my  
			question? Sergeant....."

   My suggestion- don't make them too dumb. Our military spends a fortune on
"smart" weaponry and considers the cost cheap if they can save the life of one
solder. (A sentiment I totally support as a military retiree.) And your grunt
sergeant would MUCH rather break some valuable hardware than risk the life of
a member of his squad. What he would hate is trading a living, breathing
solder for an equipment replacement if it was not 99.999% dependable.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:37:56 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: Frigates, destroyers, Cruisers, Oh my

>>My personal opinion (having served on a Frigate myself)
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>Wow. I didn't even know Terra had a space navy yet! I gotta stop listening
>>to National Public Radio and find a more current news source. ;-)

I was wet navy for several years...  ;P  (shoulda known if I didn't
specify...)

>What is the equivalent to a frigate in the Traveller universe, anyway? I
>was always unclear on the differences between a escort, a frigate, and a
>destroyer.

 Ok..  Starting from the top, you've got carriers.  Those are self
explanatory.  Self defence weaps only + Fighters/Bombers.  
 Battleships come next.  They're the ones with the shipkiller/planetkiller
stuff.  Also they've got some self defence stuff, but mostly rely on fig's
and DD's for that type of stuff.
 Cruisers would be next.  These have less armor, better
speed/maneuverability than a battleship, less weapontry but can still kill
some ships/groundtargets.  They've got more selfdefence stuff than a
battleship but still rely on fig's and DD's.
 Destroyers are shipkillers and escorts.  They've got enough weaps to kill
a ship but they are midrange between offensive/defensive weapontry.
Cheaper and easier to kill than a Cruiser but still very dangerous.
 Frigates (sometimes called escorts also) are there as torpedo stoppers.
They've got the firepower to defend their convoy or battlegroup.  Self
defence weapontry at max.  A few ship/ground killer weapons maybe.
 Escort's don't exist in most navies because their role is the same as a
frigates and are pretty much the same cost.  Usually a little smaller and
less well armed.  I won't mention armor cause it's N/A.  In the US Navy
(wet) these've been replaced by figs..

For that matter, does anyone have a military ship classification scheme
(types, duties, etc) that they would like to send me? I would be very
interested in seeing this.

 A normal battle group in the WetNavy would be a group centered around a
carrier or battleship, sometimes both for the big ones, at least 2
cruisers, 3 destroyers, and 4-8 frigates.  
 Also we dispatch cruiser groups, which is usually 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer,
and 2-4 frigates for smaller problems.
 and a patrol squadren usually is composed of 1 destroyer, and 2-4 frigates.
 Convoy's are usually escorted by patrol squads depending on the value and
size of the convoy.  other times they may be escorted by 1-2 frigates as
well.  

 Hope this helps.

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:00:31
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Slavery

>
>Now I'm sure it looks nice on the books to SAY that Slavery is illegal in
the Imperium. But anybody
>smart enough to run a ship should be smart enough to skirt the issue.
That makes it nigh
>impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they
COULD drop out of the sky
>and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.  And if
the law was written in such
>a way that it would stick, it would also cover ALL of those exploitation
cases.  Which is bad for
>business.  What's bad for business is bad for taxes.  What's bad for taxes
is bad for the
>Imperium.  What's bad for the Imperium tends to be ignored by those in
power to such an extent that
>it is no longer bad... etc. etc.
>

The Imperium really isnt that hung up about laws. It is a government of
men, not a republic based on the rule of law. And if the Imperium doesnt
like slavery, then pissing them off by looking for fig leaves of legality
wont help when some IISS functionary shows up with an Imperial Warrant
requesting all local assistance to breaking the slave ring, and local laws
be damned.

Slavery is one of those threshold issues. The arguments you put were
covered in some detail in the UK in the 1860s, during the American
republic's slow and brutal surgery to remove the cancer of slavery from
itself.

The basic problem for the UK was that slavery in the cotton states was good
for Britain, becuase it kept the price of cotton down. Never the less, the
RN sat by while Freedom of Navigation was restricted by the USA's blockade
of the rebel slave states, because slavery was seen to be wrong.

I believe that the same attitude would be held in a civilised Imperium.

>I've heard that 10,000 Cr is the average annual wage for an Imperial
citizen.  I would venture to
>say that it costs more than that to support a person on anything but lush
world.  Thus slaves would
>be better off than free men.  At least they know where their next meal is
coming from.

A human needs about 10 kilos of food a week, or 500 kg per year. This is
about 4% of a displacement ton (we will assume water is close to free. Much
food shipped thru interstellar space would be concentrated or dried, in the
same way orange juice is currently transported in concentrated form).

Assuming for a moment the prices in the Traveller trade system are vaguely
related to the reality of the Traveller universe, a dton of produce from an
Ag world will cost about KCr 6, plus call it KCr 4 transport costs (enough
to go 5 parsecs or so).

Therefore food should cost a maximum of about Cr 400 a year, plus profit
margins for distributors etc. Assume these profit margins are 200%.
Therefore, food should cost Cr 1200 a year for your average Imperial
citizen who lives entirely on food imported from 5 parsecs away.

You also have the problem that slaves tend to work badly, and as Agricola
etc documented, a slave who intends to do you damage through deniable
incompetance can cost you more than they could ever be worth.

Finally, it wasnt an accident that slavery essentially disappeared in
Christian Europe between the final fall of the Western Empire and the rise
of the Carolingians. It just isnt economically efficient.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 22:13:22 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

On 08/07/98 at 10:13 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com> said:

>You bet me by minutes, with virtually identical posts (yours was more
>detailed!). Does that make me an official HERITIC-in-training?

Hee! Hee!

This is one area I don't think we're being all that heretical.  I
know "fast pass" is mentioned in FFS2, but nowhere (that I've found,
and I'm *not* looking) explicitly says you absolutely *can't* loiter
in a GG's atmosphere, and if you can loiter you can make a slow
pass.  

In fact, it's supposed to be a standard SDB tactic to hide in
GG atmospheres.  That looks like loitering to me.

The argument has been mainly about streamlining.  Whether the ship
has to be hypersonically streamlined to loiter in a GG's atmosphere
or not.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:49:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery

What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free" either?
(and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:47:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 

> This is one area I don't think we're being all that heretical.  I
> know "fast pass" is mentioned in FFS2, but nowhere (that I've found,
> and I'm *not* looking) explicitly says you absolutely *can't* loiter
> in a GG's atmosphere, and if you can loiter you can make a slow
> pass.  

IIRC, CT mentioned someplace that a fuel skim on a GG took 8 hours.  
Considering that 'actual' time for a pass would be on the order of maybe an 
hour and a half.  This suggests to me that it's actually a bunch of short 
passes followed by either refining in place or liquifying it if you don't have 
purification.

> In fact, it's supposed to be a standard SDB tactic to hide in
> GG atmospheres.  That looks like loitering to me.

That's been around for ages, all the way back to CT.  I see this as orbitting 
inside the GG's atmosphere under power, down to about 4 or 5 atmospheres of 
pressure.
 
> The argument has been mainly about streamlining.  Whether the ship
> has to be hypersonically streamlined to loiter in a GG's atmosphere
> or not.

Yeah, I can see hypersonic streamlining to deal with GG atmospheres, since in order to fill your tanks, you have to go deep *and* have the speed to get back out.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:52:38 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:48:40
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
...
>There might be a solution hiding in the PE rules - take the GWP increase
>from Finished Goods Trade as being the Interstellar Traded Goods sector.
>
>This means an A starport world would have a traded sector of about 40% of
>the economy, which is a bit much. B and C starports are more reasonable, at
>about 33% and about 12%. These numbers strike me as being too high.
>Personally, I think the numbers should be 10% traded for A, 5% traded for B
>and 2% traded for C starport worlds.
>
>The other solution is my previous approach under GUTTT, which essentially
>proposed for every Cr 1000 profit you could make under the vanilla Trade
>rules, 1% of GDP would be dedicated to that. It then added some
>higher-value goods, and a super-value luxury goods, and tried to compensate
>for current-account deficits (lo-tech worlds run chronic trade deficits
>under the vanilla Traveller trade rules).
>
>Of course, this assumed we could make a map of all viable trade routes in
>the Imperium, which an insane amount of work. 
>

Interesting comment and model - I'm going to have to try them out.

My specialty is the Islands Clusters - only 27 worlds, effectively
isolated.  I *have* completely mapped the trade routes and the profits to
be gained from each.  I also figured out the total available shipping
tonnage (using TCS campaign rules and some admittedly debateable assumptions).

For clarity's sake, I will call a single-jump link between two worlds
(regardless of actual distance) a "leg", and a series of legs connecting
any two worlds a "route".  

Using a "gravity" model - tonnage shipped is proportional to GWP and
profitability, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance in
legs between source and market - I worked out the fraction of total tonnage
shipped between each source-market pair, then multiplied by total tonnage
and divided by twice the number of legs to get the tonnage shipped per
week, then multiplied again by Cr4000/dton to get the value shipped.

Turned out that the traded sector ranged from 0.01% to 3.1% of GWP, the
extreme values representing really low exchange rates (TL/starport
combination) and really low populations respectively.  The average was 0.5%.

This implies to me that my total tonnage figure must be low - the
shipbuilding limits in TCS must represent "docks suitable for construction
of military ships" rather than the total available, or my assumptions about
new construction versus annual maintenance or the lifetimes of ships must
be skewed.  I've just started looking at alternatives.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:53:00 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

> > In fact, it's supposed to be a standard SDB tactic to hide in
> > GG atmospheres.  That looks like loitering to me.
>
> That's been around for ages, all the way back to CT.  I see this as orbitting
> inside the GG's atmosphere under power, down to about 4 or 5 atmospheres of
> pressure.

Query: If you're deep enough in a Gas Giant that the atmosphere hides you from sensors, how do you know when to come out?  Obviously your sensors are screwed too, if
not scrubbed off entirely...

By the way, does anybody have a diagram of a Gas Giant detailing atmospheres at various altitudes and gravity at same?  Plus the comparison to the 10 and 100
diameter limits?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:02:08 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

Anders Backman wrote:

> >> If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human
> settled
> >> worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when
> the
> >> Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might
> have
> >> viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...
> >
> >I think dogs and canines would be seen more as the Vargr equivalent
> of
> >primates (pre-Proto-Vargr).  Are there people (outside of some animal
> rights
> >nuts) who object to the "lil brothers" being in zoo's?  Course, w/
> the
> >Vargr... who can tell? ; )  Pets of the World, unite?
> >
> >Gary
>
> I think that if humans wandered out in space and encountered an alien
> race
> that curiously held Orangoutangs as pets on a leash and that these
> pets
> were more or less everywhere. Not only were they extremely common,
> that had
> also been breed to look like [CENSORED] (think about how ridicelous
> some
> dog breeds look compared to the wolfs they descend from end you get my
>
> meaning).

Have you ever been to the circus?Seen Clyde's work with Clint Eastwood?

If Terrans saw orangatuans on a leash, their immediate reaction would
be,
''Oh, goody!  The circus is in town.  what a cute monkey.  Does it do
any tricks?'

bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:55:27 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)


>Andy Akins writes:
>> You don't. You engage the targeting systems. Once the thing can't see, it
>> can't shoot. Plus, if you take the planet, you simply have to repair the
>> command and control systems and now _you_ have a deep site meson gun.
>
>Of course, considering that you can hide a virtually unlimited number of
>forward observer posts with meson comms on an inhabited planet, 'engage the
>targeting systems' has limited meaning.
>

Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target a ship in
space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers and laser sighting
for this. they can be hit with anti radar missles with ease.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:08:33 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Builder Software

>"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>Does anyone know of any Windows/DOS programs that will construct a
>Traveller
>World based on the rules in the MT World Builder's Handbook?

I've got a spreadsheet here for excel that does that. I got it from an
archive somewhere... It's 25 KB zipped. If you would like me to e-mail you a
copy just holler :)

Cheers,
 Anson.

Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:19:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters) 

> >> You don't. You engage the targeting systems. Once the thing can't see, it
> >> can't shoot. Plus, if you take the planet, you simply have to repair the
> >> command and control systems and now _you_ have a deep site meson gun.
> >
> >Of course, considering that you can hide a virtually unlimited number of
> >forward observer posts with meson comms on an inhabited planet, 'engage the
> >targeting systems' has limited meaning.
> >
> 
> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target a ship in
> space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers and laser sighting
> for this. they can be hit with anti radar missles with ease.

The targetting system would be sensor platforms in orbit; military satellites, 
sensor platforms on planetary moons, that kind of thing, linked together in a 
communications net and handled by a big computer like a Mod9/fib.  Your 'fwd 
obs' tech would be doing realtime data relaying from the network to the 
gunners themselves.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:23:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 

> > > In fact, it's supposed to be a standard SDB tactic to hide in
> > > GG atmospheres.  That looks like loitering to me.
> >
> > That's been around for ages, all the way back to CT.  I see this as orbitting
> > inside the GG's atmosphere under power, down to about 4 or 5 atmospheres of
> > pressure.
> 
> Query: If you're deep enough in a Gas Giant that the atmosphere hides you
> from sensors, how do you know when to come out?  Obviously your sensors are
> screwed too, if not scrubbed off entirely...

I'd hide comsats in the planetary ring system & on the planetary moons along 
with passive sensors, feeding the comsats.  The comsats would have to be tight 
beam boxes, but this is do-able.  I'd also rig them for burst transmission.

> By the way, does anybody have a diagram of a Gas Giant detailing atmospheres
> at various altitudes and gravity at same?  Plus the comparison to the 10 and
> 100 diameter limits?

Nobody I know of...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:29:19 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> >From: CardSharks@aol.com
> >Mitigation
> >       1. Intentional. The violation was performed with intention and
> with the
> >knowledge that it was wrong.
> >       2. Passionate or Emotionally Charged. The violation was
> performed in the
> heat
> >of passion or under extreme emotional duress.
> >       3. Accidental or Unintended. The violation occurred
> accidentally or without
> >intention.
> >       4. Ignorant. The violation took place without the individual
> being aware
> that
> >it happened or that it was a violation.
> >
>
> My direct knowledge of law is limited to military justice, but
> according to
> the Manual for Courts Martial, these elements are not strictly
> speaking
> matters in mitigation. To paraphrase:
>
> 1.  Defense - elements showing that you did not commit a specific
> crime, or
> that your actions did not constitute a crime.
> 2.  Extenuation - elements showing that while you did commit a crime,
> it
> was not as serious as it could be.
> 3.  Mitigation - elements showing that while you did commit a crime
> and it
> was serious, you should not be punished as severely as possible.
>
> Some of these could be defenses, depending on the legal system
> ("Ignorance
> of the Law is no Excuse.").  Most of them would be matters in
> extenuation,
> rather than mitigation.
>
> Intention, as you have defined it, would be an aggravating rather than
> a
> mitigating factor.  Lack of intent is a defense in some crimes,
> however.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Christopher Thrash

Christopher points out a valid yet subtle distinction between mitigation
and other legal actors.

Generally, in US non-military law, 'mitigation' is a term of art that is
only encountered in dealing with the death penalty.  [forgive the
non-capital letters - shift key is sticking]
the supreme court ruled in the 70s that state death penalty laws which
do not consider mitigating and aggravating factors are
unconstitutional.  thus, amongst lawyers, if someone says mitigation,
we're almost always talking death penalty.  however, some states have
used the same language with regard to serious crimes.  in these
situations, mitigation is with regard to the penalty, not the
determination of guilt or liability.

what mm described as 'mitigation' is its common sense meaning.  it
encompasses both defenses and excuses.  i think this is very appropriate
given the context in which he writes, a generic abstract of legal
systems that will no doubt be implemented in various ways in various
systems.  it goes to the defintition of the crime really.

generally, there are two types of crime and liability; those requiring a
specific mental state or intent (mens rea), such as 'intentionally',
'knowingly', 'willfully', 'wantonly', 'recklessly', 'negligently', 'with
disregard for human life', 'with depraved indifference,' 'with malice
aforethought', etc.  crimes and liabilities that do not require a
specific type of intent are called 'strict liability', and there is
rarely, if ever, and excuse or defense to these.  a good example is
speeding and parking tickets.  over the limit or over the line and you
are guilty.  the judge may dismiss it if you can prove a
life-threatening emergency, but you are still guilty and nothing
mitigates that.

with this backdrop, you can see that mm's blessed brief and concise
descriptions cut to the heart of the matter.

'intention' is the necessary mental state that is an element of the
crime.  it must be proved or no crime has been committed.
'passionate or emotionally charged' - evidence of this will negate
certain types of intent, especially those requiring premeditation,
malice, specific intent, i.e., the specific outcome was the goal of the
actor.
'accidental or unintended' do much the same and usually are evaluated in
terms of the foreseeability of the consquences to the actor.  if the
outcome was not reasonably foreseeable, the defendant will not be found
to have the requisite intent.
'ignorance' - well, i have yet to encounter a legal system where
ignorance of the law has excused anyone's conduct, but its a big
universe.  ignorance that a violation took place is different though.
proof of it may negate responsibility for some classes of crimes,
especially those that involve cooperative acts of multiple defendants,
such as conspiracy crimes.

can you tell i just took the bar exam?   ;-)

[i promise to get a new keyboard]

bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:47:06 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>> Reminds me of a Heinlien story (The Door into Summer) where he envisons a
>> future where Gold is cheap and plentiful and, being an excellent conductor,
>> replaced copper in many circuits and functions.
>>
>begging the _obvious_ question...why _don't_ they use gold in IC
>interconnects? Gold is expensive, but material costs aren't a large part
>of IC manufacture.

IIRC gold is actually a poorer conductor than copper. Gold is used
connecting chips to their IC carrier because it's very ductile; copper
wires that tiny would snap. It's also used on card contacts because it
doesn't corrode, but where electrical conductivity is important copper is
the way to go.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:46:35 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters

Be happy to provide info on age of sail ship
details. Will forward when I get home.
Just Checking the list at work.

Thanks
Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

- -----Original Message-----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com <DustyLV769@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Fighters


>In a message dated 8/5/98 8:31:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>montecristo@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< Traveller has been likened to the Age of Sail, with notable differences.
> Historically, how many ships in a sailing squadron were of support type?
> Few, I'd guess.  Most of the ships were self-contained fighting ships,
> carrying their "sawbones" with them, having most everything they needed
> with them, to include spare spar, sails, etc.  Maybe there should be
> more support in the fighting ships themselves and not in support
> vessels...
>  >>
>
>Does anyone have in hard info on what percentage an average man-of-war
would
>have devoted to spares and other storage?  It seems this could be modeled
in
>any of the Trav ship design systems, by just allocating that % of hull
space
>to cargo, specifically as spares.
>
>DustyLV769@aol.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:43:01 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fighters

From:           	"Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Date sent:      	Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:46:35 -0500

> Be happy to provide info on age of sail ship
> details. Will forward when I get home.
> Just Checking the list at work.

Taken from my "Ships of the Interstellar Wars" page:

Terran Confederation Warships

During the Interstellar Wars the Terran Confederation did not use the common 
forms of designations for their warships. Instead they used a system of 
nomenclature that owed more to the Terran "Age of Sail". Thus rather than 
dividing their ships into the usual groupings of Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers 
etc. the Terrans used the following ship types

Ships of the Line: These were large capital ships designed with the sole 
purpose of meeting enemy warships in battle and defeating them.

Cruisers: This term was only introduced during the 9th Interstellar War. When 
the Terrans developed meson guns they found that they were most effectivily 
employed in ships smaller than their current Ships of the Line. Hence the term 
"Cruiser" was introduced to refer to capital ships mounting meson guns. These 
ships were closer in size to the large Frigates that were common in the Terran 
fleets at that time (circa 35,000 Td as against circa 120,000 Td for Ships of the 
Line and circa 15,000 Td for Frigates). Their role however was not that of a 
traditional cruising ship but that of a capital ship.

Frigates: These were designed as "Cruising Ships". Their roles were scouting, 
commerce raiding and commerce protection.

Corvettes: These were small frigates designed for commerce raiding, escort 
and patrol duties.

Sloops: These were small ships designed for general patrol duties. Frequently 
encountered in peacetime as picket vessels.

Missile boats: These were small non-jump capable vessels. Built around a 
small mass produced hull fitted with a large number of missiles to counter the 
heavy missile armament of Vilani vessels. The Missile Boats were one of the 
two "elite" branches of the Confederation Navy.

Mother Ships: Jump capable tenders for the Missile Boats.

Raiders: These were small "expendable" ships designed to destroy enemy 
merchant vessels. Generally featured long endurance and a powerful 
armament. Extensively used in the scouting role in addition to their anti-
commerce roles. The Raiders were one of the two "elite" branches of the 
Confederation Navy.

Bomb Ketches: These were sloop sized vessels designed specifically for 
planetary bombardment roles. Distinguished by their slow acceleration, heavy 
defences and strong missile batteries.

Guardships: Ships assigned to defend specific fixed locations. Generally these 
were an assortment of obsolete warships no longer suited for frontline duties 
assigned with little or no modifications. However some purpose designed 
guardships were built for strategic systems. These were similar to non-jump 
capable Ships of the Line.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #725
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 726



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computers, websites, K'kree
To complicate the Cruser, Destroyer issue
A M:IW Vilani merchant.
M0 and FS Starmap
ANDY - JO GRANT STUFF
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Slavery
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree
reconniasnce cruisers (Sphkreuzer)
K'kree thanks, servanthood 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #724
Re:
Fwd: M:0 32 pages
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
[OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Slavery

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:59:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree

> >> Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more
> >> conservative than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover
> >> space flight?  Why?

> This is a very, Very, VERY difficult question you propose.  In fact, it
> has puzzled the Imperial Scientific Community (ISC) for hundreds of
> years.  How could they [the K'kree] discover something on a world in
> another system, without already possessing similar capability.  The ISC
> have been postulating that the sensor ranges of the K'kree are highly
> advanced, beyond anything that the 3I has been able to field, or even
> hypothesize.

> The Tech Level of the K'kree sensor industry must therefore be
> incredible.  This also would explain why all expeditions into K'kree
> space have always been met by overwhelming force....  ;->

This is clearly a misreading of the the question.  The question is
clearly how did the K'Kree scientists get to earth to do the
research that lead to the discovery of jump drive (hence the
reference to the K'Kree discovering jump drive on earth) before
thay had interstellar travel.  And why didn't they do the research
on the K'Kree homeworld?

(After all, the idea they used sensors to see jump dives on Earth
is just silly:-)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 08:48:45 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: To complicate the Cruser, Destroyer issue

Josh is entirely right. But that's just the current Western way of doing
things. The 'other lot' have a habit of messing up the issue.

Take the Kiev class carriers. Not in the same league as a US (or, say,
French) large aircraftcarrier, but more akin to the British through-deck
cruisers (light carriers in all but name, operating ASW helos and VSTOL
fighters). 

However, while the Western approach for a carrier is: point-defence weapons
only, leave ASW, long-range air defence and surface attack to the vessel's
air compement, the Kiev is half cruiser, half carrier.

The result is a reaonable powerful cruiser (modern definition, not
Traveller) which operates some aircraft for air defence and ASW, plus
missile guidance. Reliance is mainly placed on the 'cruiser' weapons, not
the planes.

But what you have is a flexible ship that's not nearly as good as a Carrier
Task group, but costs less, too. Its role is different. Point is, is that a
cruiser or a carrer? Both. 

For Traveller, where we have vast areas of space to cover, you might see a
'Frontier Patrol Vessel' or 'Self-Escorting Cruiser', a cruiser-sized
warship with slightly weaker armament but carrying a gunship squadron and a
bunch of ground troops. It's not a s good as a cruiser in battle, but it's
flexible, and it's a one-ship task force.

The Imperials might not bother, but if budgets were tight then these ships
might be seen as cost-effective for patrol duties.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 00:00:07 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: A M:IW Vilani merchant.

In fleshing out the details of the Terran Free Traders of the IW period I thought
what would be their most likely "opponents". I came up with the idea that the 
bulk of the Vilani's patrol force were not in fact warships by slightly modified 
merchants. This should make it much easier for the Free Traders to slip though 
and deliver their contraband to Vilani frontier worlds.

Ariiarargu, Ushman class Armed Merchant (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 800 Td (SL Thick Disc Hypersonic)
 Crew: 17/25
 Cargo: 278 Td (5 Large Cargo Hatches, Handling: 1 x 278 ton)
 Volume: 11200m3
 Passengers High/Med: 3/5
 Cost: 520.694 MCr (25% Bulk Discount)
 Mass (L/C): 11268t/7217t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 321
 Dimensions: 30.5m x 30.5m x 15.3m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 11
 Size: 8
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3 x Comp (CM: 0.4 CP: 2.5). Bridge.
 Communications: 1 x Dir Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 1 x Laser (1,000AU, 
0MW).
 Sensors: 1 x Sci PEMS (13 [5mkm] Sci, 0MW).
          1 x Sci AEMS (11 [0.16mkm] Sci, 0.5MW).
          1 xS ci LIDAR (14.5 [500kkm] Sci, 1MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0.5 (0.5 at 1007MW, 0 at 116MW), Act:0.5, Neu:1,
             Grav:1

Weaponry
 2 x Heavy Laser Turret (+3) 1/0-0-0-0 [1,800/15-8-4-2] (LR)
 4 x Missile Turret Can 6/3 (Mag: 0 MFD: 500,000km)
       w/6 Cmd DL 1d6/1 [36] 6.9G/11 500,000km

Performance
 2 Jump (80 Td/pc fuel)
 3/4.7 Maneuver (Thruster: 840MW)
 1/1.6 Contra-grav (157MW)
 3960kph/4792kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 2970kph/3594kph)
 3 Power (Fusion: 1160MW, 0.08yr)
 0 Battery
 161 Fuel (Scoop: 5, Purif: 64, 1MW)
 0/25/8/0/0 Accomodations (33 x Sanitary Fittings)
 132 Person/Weeks Life Support (Type: Standard, Normal Food [Stored])
 1 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 0 Sandcasters
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 10 [30] Armor, 19 Structure

Features
 8 x Decontamination Airlock
 1 x Ship's locker (0.4 Td ea.)
 1 x Full Galley (Cap: 33)

Small Craft
 1 x Minimal Hanger (20 Td, 1 hatch)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 2 x Helm
 11 x Engineering
 1 x Maintainence
 6 x Gunnery
 3 x Command
 1 x Steward
 1 x Medical

The Ushman class was a paramilitary vessel, intended not only as a high jump
trading vessel, but also as a patrolship helping to maintain law and order
on the spacelanes. Throughout the long history of the Ziru Sirka designs such
as the Ushman class actually formed the bulk of the Empires patrol and
escort forces. The construction of these vessels was heavily subsidised by
the various Vilani Bureaux, and they proved to be a cost effective means of
patrolling space throughout most of the Ziru Sirka. However they were totally
outclassed by the Terran Confederation's Raiders during the Interstellar
Wars (they proved to similarly ineffective against the incursion of the Vargr
corsairs during the same period) and as such suffered heavy casualties.

Despite their military role, these ships were not naval vessels and the bulk
of their crews were civilians (only 7 crew members operating the weapons were
considered to be naval personnel); and they were required to operate as
commercially viable units. Thus they conformed to general Vilani merchantile
design practice, the only concessions to their military role being their
armarment, light armour and on board fuel purification capacity. Unfortunatly
these compromises resulted in them being only marginally profitable (even
with the Bureaux subsidy) and with the fall of the Ziru Sirka they rapidly
disappeared as the Rule of Man was unwilling to subsidise their construction.

The only example of the Ushman class known to have survived the Long Night
was the Ariiarargu. The Ariiarargu was built at Dingir shortly the start of
the Eigth Interstellar War. Her assigned patrol area included the Duriim
system and she was the only Vilani vessel to escape with the news of the
systems fall to the Terrans. She was latter to achieve fame when after the
Vilani defeat in the 2nd Battle of Duriim, her captain showed considerable
skill and determination in carrying the news through Terran controlled space.
As a result the Ariiarargu was preserved in the AAB on Vland and survived
through the long night intact.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:04:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: M0 and FS Starmap

Recently, there's been a lot of discussion on the M0 book. In this a few
people said that they had a problem with the maps in First Survey which
didn't really relate to the descriptions in M0.

When writing material for M0, my assumption has been that the maps are the
latest 'commercialy' available data, referencing the state of Imperila
knowledge around -25 before the collapse of the interstellar confederacy
etc, and just as Cleon started his thirty year expansion drive and the
resultant promotion to emperor.

This seems to work okay and also helps justify the lousy quality of the
data on the maps (lacking in starports etc). Even with the lousy data,
First survey would have been so much better with trade routes, bases etc
marked on with two maps, one for the ref, one for players.

I produced Core subsector up with starports and names and it made quite a
difference...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:17:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: ANDY - JO GRANT STUFF

>Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:49:52 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: The Dean Files -- they'll be back
>
>OK, I've had over 6 replies (all off-line, thanks so much!). The Dean Files
>will be back as part of a revamped CORE site. I'll inform the list when it
>is present.
>Cheers,
>Jo

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 07:53:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> The problem I have with this is that you'd have to be a completely inept MORON to NOT figure out a
> way to skirt the Imperial Slavery Laws.
> 1. Ship slaves in low births.  There's nobody to question if the Navy pulls you over for speeding.
> 2. Don't call it Buying/Selling slaves, simply call it passage and recruiting fees.
> 3. Force all "recruits" to sign trainee contracts whereby they are learning a trade and have their
> food and lodging supplied by the "employer"
> 4. Control the life of trainees so they don't complain by some means. Addiction to a drug.
> Restriction to pressurized locations on vacuum planets.  Give them a disease that need regular
> treatments.  "Training Collars".  Brain washing.  Hold family hostage. The list goes on and on...

Except most of those last ones are crimes as well. 'Give them a disease..."
that's one of those imperial rules of war things, it's called biowarfare.
Restriction to location is kidnapping, and meets the essential control
requirements of slavery, as do 'training collars', and holding a family hostage.

Brainwashing is another thing...if you call yourself the High Majareesh
Bagwhan and get your followers to give you all their money and work for
nothing...hey, it's their 'choice'. Why do you think there's all those damn
Gov type 'D's around?

> Now I'm sure it looks nice on the books to SAY that Slavery is illegal in the Imperium. But anybody
> smart enough to run a ship should be smart enough to skirt the issue.  That makes it nigh
> impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they COULD drop out of the sky
> and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.  And if the law was written in such
> a way that it would stick, it would also cover ALL of those exploitation cases. 

The question is _whose_ business is it bad for? The Imperium does not treat
any running-dog capitalist as equals...there are many who are more equal than
others. Imagine, you're a petty little despot, running a lucrative slavery
trade, and some sector-wide news organization investigates you and splashes
all your corporate clients and graphic details of the horrible conditions
under which your 'workers' toil. Huge public outcry, petty nobles take stances
against you in the Moot, your clients competitors seize the opportunity to
wreak havoc on them and keep the pot boiling. 

Ta-da, you're now the squeaky wheel in the status quo, and the MOJ is on you
like a load of bricks.

You are making a broad assumption that the 3I is stricly 'rule of law'. It
ain't, never has been. Since the moment ol' Cleon I had himself crowned
Emperor, the 3I has been a mixture of both rule of law and rule of man...a
noble rules of his own power derived from a man, the Emperor, not law.

Each one of those cases you stated above could be construed to be covered
under the simple 'Control of another person against their will=slavery' rule.
Whether you're prosecuted or not, as others have said depends on the resources
and will of the Imperium.

Something that seems to be getting lost here...the stated reason that the
Imperium is governed the way it is is because of it's sheer size. That
absolutely necessitates a hguge amount of local autonomous control, which
means the law _will_ inevitably be prosected differently in different places.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 08:01:35 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Slavery

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free" either?
> (and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)

Well, the only reason it wasn't 'free' was there was, practically speaking
absolutely no where else to go...which is why the rise of towns killed it so
quickly...sort of. Here in the US they called it 'sharecropping', and it
occured well ito the 20th century.

However, the manorial lord had some (in theory) pretty heavy responsibilities
to his serfs, and they had some pretty absolute control over him as well,
since they could, if they so chose, starve him into submission.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 08:09:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree

David P. Summers wrote:
>
> (After all, the idea they used sensors to see jump dives on Earth
> is just silly:-)
> 

Yeah, I mean, some of those dives are hard to find even when you know where
they are... 'I think you knock on the third yellow door here..' ;-P

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:27:35 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: reconniasnce cruisers (Sphkreuzer)

the germans worked on some thing to be called a Sphkreuzer (reconnaissance
cruiser) during WW2 and i thought i would post a little information i found
here on line about them a few months ago for you all to see, just to
complitcate the destroyer/cruisers question my self....

besides i wouldnt mind seeing some thing like this pop up as an actual ship
design on the list...

Although called Sphkreuzer - Reconnaissance Cruiser - those ships were
basically large destroyers capable for Atlantic Operations. Based on
traditional destroyer design, several project studies started in 1938 to
develop a large destroyer of the size of a CL. Like most German CLs, those
ships were planed to get a mixed propulsion system, geared turbines for high
speed and diesel engines for long cruises. It was planed to use this ships in
combinations of the new battleships of the Z-Plan in the North Atlantic where
the Sphkreuzer should be the eyes of a larger battle fleet.


if any one wants more inforation on the Sphkreuzer (Reconnaissance Cruiser)
let me know and i will send you all the information i have on it....

richard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:23:12 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: K'kree thanks, servanthood 

First, thanks for the many responses on the
K'kree!  So the Centaur's hatred of carnivores
outweigh their hatred of change - an interesting
insight into their psychology.

********

Now, my take on slavery... Slavery is rather inefficent compared
to a willing, paid workforce.  Also, industrialization and the division
of labour tend's to finish off slavery as a workable concept. Add in the
fact that
the Imperium prohibit's slavery, and it would seem that there would be
no slavery at all, especially if you are using "Middle Atlantic" aka
American Slavery as the model.

On the other hand, there is certainly oppression on various Imperial worlds:
many libertarians would argue that Communism is a form of slavery,
and there are almost certainly Communist societies within the
Imperium.

Moreover, some form of indentured servanthood
seem's likely, as a way of paying off loans, colonist transport cost's,
etc.

Still, indentured servanthood is is quite different than slavery.  For one,
it is not tansferred from parent's to children.  Also, servant's are still
people,
rather than slaves, which are legally so much furniture, to be
used, raped and killed when conveinent or entertaining. And not just
the slaves, but their children and THEIR children as well,
till the end of time.

Serfdom, however, may indeed exist in the Imperium in some form.
For now, let's define serfdom as a form of communism: the slave may
never *own* any land (or factories, or starships...), but - as long as
he provides labour to his lord - he has the right to use some of his
lord's property for the serf's personal use, (including increasing
personal wealth, to buy his freedom say) has the right to be treated as a
man rather than as some sex toy or beast of labour, can
marry and have children, etc.  His children, however, are also born as
serf's, and also must serve their lord.

Enforcing serfdom - that is, keeping it from becoming slavery -
is going to be a nightmare without increasing the power of the
Imperium to massive, and probably unsustainable levels.
To the extent that the nobility in the West didn't treat the serf's as
animals is due to a powerful, universal Christian Church.  There is
no analogue to this institution in the offical Imperium.  (Although
family ties & the honour code may make a fair substitute)

In the end, I suspect that serfdom itself would be offically banned
by the Imperium as just a different form of slavery - but the ban will
be enforced or ignored, depending on the wealth and the personality of the
local nobility.

Eventually, you run into limits on what forms of servitute the Imperium can
forbid, before extending it's power to illegal and unsustainable levels; ie
banning son's of farmers from working on the farm due to child labour laws,
insisting that all families have a paid nanny to raise children rather than
using the unpaid labour of the wife.  Moreover, the very institution of the
Imperium endorses some form of servanthood: what are nobles, but servant's
of the Emperor?   And aren't the Imperial military just armed retainers of
the Irridium Throne?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #724

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
> Subject: Interstellar Trade
> 
> The way I see it, there are two seperate driving forces behind interstellar
> trade.
> 
> The first one is specialisiation and exchange.
<snip>
> 
> The second one is the desire for luxury goods from far away.
<snip>
>
> The standard trade system deals well with specialisation and exchnage type
> trade. 

	You forgot the most classic of all, comparative advantage!  
Admittedly, in the modern world this plays a small role compared to 
economies of scale, but there's reason to believe it would be more 
important in the Imperium.  Given the wide variety of different kinds of 
"terrain" (earth-like, asteroid, water-world, fluid, etc.) there will be 
more opportunities for trade based on these differences.  The classic is 
a terrestrial world and asteroid belt trading biologicals for minerals.  
This is the notion behind Traveller's trade classifications (Ag, In, 
etc.)

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:52:13 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re:

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:16:50 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: M:0 32 pages

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --part0_902603810_boundary
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From: Kagekiha@aol.com
Return-path: <Kagekiha@aol.com>
To: hiwg-twg@qrc.com
Cc: hiwg@qrc.com, Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: M:0 32 pages
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:13:20 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
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	The extra chapter from M0 campaign book is now up on my web site (excuse the
look, it was a q&d job), thanks to Stuart Dollar, Joe Walsh and Marc Miller.

	The site is at members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller.


Bryan

- --part0_902603810_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:39:29 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

> From:          TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Date:          Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:58:48 EDT
>
> > [
> > If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human settled
> > worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when the
> > Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
> > viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...
> 
> I think dogs and canines would be seen more as the Vargr equivalent of
> primates (pre-Proto-Vargr).  Are there people (outside of some animal rights
> nuts) who object to the "lil brothers" being in zoo's?  Course, w/ the
> Vargr... who can tell? ; )  Pets of the World, unite? 


The Vargr being what they are, I predict mixed and varied reactions. :)

In general, I would expect them to a certain unease with terran dogs, since 
they are a reminder of the geneered origins (something they are touchy about).


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:56:21 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

At 10:16 pm 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more
conservative
>than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
>And why did they start expanding to the stars?

	Trick question ... the K'Kree didn't discover spaceflight on Earth!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 19:09:26 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Now I'm sure it looks nice on the books to SAY that Slavery is illegal
> in the Imperium. But anybody
> smart enough to run a ship should be smart enough to skirt the issue.

This has been my point from the beginning, except with regard to how
difficult it is to get away with.

>  That makes it nigh
> impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they
> COULD drop out of the sky
> and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.

I beg to differ.  The enslaved person is going to be allowed to
testify.And IMHO and Legal Experience, even if the victim doesn't
testify,
it wouldn't be hard to prove the case at all.  And thats assuming that
the Imperium's courts are as liberal as modern Terra.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 19:19:51 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy

Apologies for the off-topic post, but I'm trying to track down the last
major auction that was posted on TML.

About a month ago there was an auction for Traveller products including
several items which I had the last bid on (after going, going, gone).
Unfortunately, I messed up the snail address to where I was supposed to
send my money.  I'm hoping that the auctioneer (who's name escapes me
but had a UCLA email address), or one of the other participants in the
auction can send me the mailing address.

I had the winning bids on several MT items and Vilani and Vargr.

Much thanks.

Steve Daniels
aka Bloo
blueboy@bu.edu
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 23:59:58
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

			
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>My specialty is the Islands Clusters - only 27 worlds, effectively
>isolated.  I *have* completely mapped the trade routes and the profits to
>be gained from each.  I also figured out the total available shipping
>tonnage (using TCS campaign rules and some admittedly debateable
assumptions).
>

Cool. Can you send this to me ? Also, did you compute the route from
Cerebin to Serendip Belt via Zuflucht ? If you allow drop tanks, it's a
jump-4 route. 

>For clarity's sake, I will call a single-jump link between two worlds
>(regardless of actual distance) a "leg", and a series of legs connecting
>any two worlds a "route".  
>
>Using a "gravity" model - tonnage shipped is proportional to GWP and
>profitability, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance in
>legs between source and market - 

IMO it should be tonnage shipped depends on the GWP and net profitability.
We really should stick time in there as well, because time is money -
someone has all this capital tied up in owning the cargo while it is
between the worlds, money that could otherwise be earning a nice little
packed in Hortalez et Cie bonds.

Profitibility determines if trade happens. One assumes the more profitible
trade is, the more of the economies involved will be dedicated to that
trade (this may not be true. Imagine a world with one very rick deposit of
lanthanum. If that mine is profitable, it will operate. But if that mine is
exteremly profitable, there can still be only one lanthanum mine).

But if you can make money shipping goods between 2 worlds, it doesnt matter
how far apart they are.

Transport costs are not a square function incidentally - do you have a copy
of Hans' Passenger and Freight table ? Basically, jump-3 is the most
efficient per-parsec way to transport goods long distances. (incidentally,
this means the importance of jump-1 mains has been way overstated.
Essentially, they are irrelevant for long-distance transport).

>I worked out the fraction of total tonnage
>shipped between each source-market pair, then multiplied by total tonnage
>and divided by twice the number of legs to get the tonnage shipped per
>week, then multiplied again by Cr4000/dton to get the value shipped.

The high-volume trade routes will tend to get source prices lower than
this, but market prices higher than this.

[also, please do me a favour and not mention the v-word ... prices are nice
simple things, being based as they are on opinions, backed up with cash.
The v-word is a lot more nebulous and makes by brain hurt when I think
about it, and I get this overwhelming urge to start reading Ricardo and the
Grundrisse]

>
>Turned out that the traded sector ranged from 0.01% to 3.1% of GWP, the
>extreme values representing really low exchange rates (TL/starport
>combination) and really low populations respectively.  The average was 0.5%.

If trade is this high with your assumptions, then it is going to be a quite
healthy number once we plug in some more pro-trade assumptions.

>
>This implies to me that my total tonnage figure must be low - the
>shipbuilding limits in TCS must represent "docks suitable for construction
>of military ships" rather than the total available, or my assumptions about
>new construction versus annual maintenance or the lifetimes of ships must
>be skewed.  I've just started looking at alternatives.

The maximum effective life of ships is something that has never really been
defined. Personally, I think starship maintainence should be 1% per decade,
and if your engineer gets a special success then the ship gets 1d6 years
'younger'.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:07:59 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery

true...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #726
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 9 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 727



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy
Re: Fwd: M:0 32 pages
Re: Fighters
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
re: Imperial Economics
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to WaltSmith)
Plasma Drone Infantry Support Robot (TL12)
M:0 extra pages
Other nonstandard ships
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Query: High pop systems
Food costs (Was: Slavery)
Re: Traveller World Builder Software
Dynastic roleplaying...
Subsector Duke's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:10:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy

His name is Joel Pratt. I got my Traveller Adventure OK. I'll look to find his
E mail address and post it if I find it.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 18:24:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: M:0 32 pages

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>         The extra chapter from M0 campaign book is now up on my web site (excuse the
> look, it was a q&d job), thanks to Stuart Dollar, Joe Walsh and Marc Miller.
> 
>         The site is at members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller.
> 

yaay!..A very heartfelt thank you from those of us who bought the separate M0
and FS!

Thanks a million, Stu, Joe and Marc! (You too, Bryan for getting it html-ized)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:34:02 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighters

In a message dated 8/7/98 23:44:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Terran Confederation Warships
 
 During the Interstellar Wars the Terran Confederation did not use the common 
 forms of designations for their warships. Instead they used a system of 
 nomenclature that owed more to the Terran "Age of Sail". >>

This closely mimics the fleet organization I use IMTU for the Royal Spartan
Navy...a most shameless rip off of the Royal Navy circa 1800.! :-)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 21:34:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> >  That makes it nigh
> > impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they
> > COULD drop out of the sky
> > and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.
>
> I beg to differ.  The enslaved person is going to be allowed to
> testify.And IMHO and Legal Experience, even if the victim doesn't
> testify,
> it wouldn't be hard to prove the case at all.  And thats assuming that
> the Imperium's courts are as liberal as modern Terra.

Without local enforcement, the Imperium wouldn't hear about it.  If the
local government supports slavery, the Imperium would be totally in the
dark.  Of course if local government held slavery to be illegal that's a
different story.  All I'm saying is that the Imperium can't enforce slavery
laws without local help, thus it should be local jurisdiction.  Now, if the
Imperium wants no slavery, they can write that into the treaty when a new
world signs up.  One of the tenets would be outlawing slavery.  Of course
that would make slavery High Treason as it would threaten the Imperial
treaty.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 00:22:03 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Imperial Economics

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Transport costs are not a square function incidentally - do you have a copy
of Hans' Passenger and Freight table ? Basically, jump-3 is the most
efficient per-parsec way to transport goods long distances. (incidentally,
this means the importance of jump-1 mains has been way overstated.
Essentially, they are irrelevant for long-distance transport).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Jump-1 mains are important in sub TL12 situations - Long Night
recoveries, for example, or local worlds attempting to develop
interstellar trade. While TL12 is the Imperial Average, 
there are a lot of Class A Starports at TL9 or 10.

While Jump-3 availability will introduce the efficiency referred to by
Han's Passenger and Freight Tables, the cultural and trade links
forged before Jump-3 was available will have an endurance of their
own. These links may slowly erode as new trade routes replace the
old, leading to interesting (ok, _bad_) changes for the bypassed worlds.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:22:45 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:39:29 +0000, edjs@bitslayer.net
>In general, I would expect them to a certain unease with terran dogs, since
>they are a reminder of the geneered origins (something they are touchy about).

Well, aside from the fact that they are not derived from "dogs", are
they "touching" or just "proud".  IMO, the only touchiness comes from
all the dog jokes and human prejudices that Vargr living in the Imperium
are subject to.  Which brings up the question, do humans in the
Vargr extents have to put up with "Cheeta" jokes?  How do _they_
react to chimpanzees.  (I can the said that Ancient genetic engineering
gives Vargr a break with their canine past while humans are, in fact,
the sons and daughters of primates).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:26:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:56:21 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

>	Trick question ... the K'Kree didn't discover spaceflight on Earth!

So you think!  The truth is that the Hive%r*(s8$_)&^-,  .*k...
[reconnecting....]
FNORD


Sorry about that.  Got some gibberish.  As I was saying, thanks for
pointing that out!

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:39:12 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

>IIRC gold is actually a poorer conductor than copper. Gold is used
>connecting chips to their IC carrier because it's very ductile; copper
>wires that tiny would snap. It's also used on card contacts because it
>doesn't corrode, but where electrical conductivity is important copper is
>the way to go.


According to my electronics course we use gold because the contact
resistance stays low due to gold's low reactivity with other materials, i.e.
when you two gold connectors they don't react with each other and tarnish,
retarding the connection. With dissimilar materials you get more tarnishing
and they stuff up faster... I think.
Don't quote me on the above stuff, that's just what I've garnered from my
course, I'll ask Paddy (the tutor) and come back with the definitive answer
:)

By the way, copper is a better conductor than gold, but silver is a better
conductor than copper.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:42:11 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to WaltSmith)

>
>> Trick question ... the K'Kree didn't discover spaceflight on Earth!
>
>So you think!  The truth is that the Hive%r*(s8$_)&^-,  .*k...
>[reconnecting....]
>FNORD
>
>
>Sorry about that.  Got some gibberish.  As I was saying, thanks for
>pointing that out!


I blame Nixon...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 01:48:59 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Plasma Drone Infantry Support Robot (TL12)

Working on Robots, from the CT design sequence in the book
of the same name.

The Concordance is a culture that I've been working with, a small
cluster of late TL-12 worlds outside the Imperium. They have
a relatively unified interplanetary culture, and like to use robots
for things as long as the robots have close human supervision.

This is the first draft of my idea for an infantry fire support drone. 
A bit over half a MCR each, might be a bit pricey for a squad level
support asset. It's built with "Basic Command", which seems to mean 
you can't use complex sentences and must articulate clearly - the 
latter could be a problem in a combat situation.

(Recall Sergeant in _Aliens_ asking the Lieutenant to repeat orders
while his team is getting torn apart)

You can tell it "Proceed to tree line", or "Follow the heat trace and
destroy the source", but you can't tell it "Roam around the battlefield
until you find grav tanks, then report their location to me while you
hide and keep them under surveillance".

I gave it an Obscuration Device so it could throw a smokescreen
over it's squad, or protect itself from laser fire. I wanted to give it
a video recorder, but the weight would have comprimised it's
3G acceleration. Infantry Ground Combat skill was included so
the Drone would have the vocabulary needed to understand
battlefield orders, and Recon skill was added so it could do a
low-level interpretation of sensor data - so it might recognize
certain marks as tank tracks, or a certain heat signature as the
vent from an underground bunker's power source.

It's about the size of a big person with no arms or legs, so it
can fit wherever you carry a person - in a standard drop capsule, for
example. An expeditionary force would save life support costs,
but will have to pay about Cr5500 per year in maintenace costs.

Without further ado, I present to you the Concordance Plasma Drone.
Critiques and suggestions encouraged.

- ------------------------------------
Plasma Drone

6140F-L0-LL114-7F352  Cr552825 Kg372.3
Fuel=66	Duration=9 Days		TL=12
30/75 (Combat Armor)
Dist Range Radio
PGMP-12
Basic Sensors
Telescopic, Passive IR, Light Intensification
ECM, Radiation Sensor, Obscuration Device
Brain and Program Interfaces			
PGMP-12 -2
Grav-1
Infantry Ground Combat-1
Recon-1

A tool of the trade for Concordance Ground Combat forces. Capable
of 3G acceleration, the Plasma Drone is an armored, flying infantry
support weapon. It can act as a remote observer or scout with it's
enhanced sensors and armor, though it must be supervised
due to limited brain capabilities. The integral PGMP-12 provides
powerful fire support at the squad level.

- -------------------------------------
Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 02:00:50 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: M:0 extra pages

> Bryan, please correct me if I am mistaken.
>  

That would be correct. Especially as I don't have the book to proof it
against. However given IG's usual work habits I wouldn't expect to many
changes, and if there are any odds are they might be wrong. Of course that
would be a guess.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:20:14 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Other nonstandard ships

There's also the current Japanese 'Helicopter Destroyer' which is a big
destroyer operating 3 large ASW helos, the Soviet Moskva helo cruisers and
their Italian counterparts, (Some other people use them but I can't
remember who offhand) and the 'air-capable Spruance' project, if it ever
happens.

The logic for the latter goes like this: Attack carriers are a lovely big
target. Use of ballistic missiles at sea is less likely to lead to
esaclation, so carriers might get nuked.

Any air power is better than none.

So the idea was to use the Spruance hull (also used for the Ticonderoga
clas cruisers) to build what's essentially an AAW-configured destroyer, but
which operates a couple of VTOL fighters for recce or air defernce - or
even strike, I suppose.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 05:13:04 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>
>Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 23:59:58
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>			
>>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>>
>>My specialty is the Islands Clusters - only 27 worlds, effectively
>>isolated.  I *have* completely mapped the trade routes and the profits to
>>be gained from each.  I also figured out the total available shipping
>>tonnage (using TCS campaign rules and some admittedly debateable
>assumptions).
>>
>
>Cool. Can you send this to me ? Also, did you compute the route from
>Cerebin to Serendip Belt via Zuflucht ? If you allow drop tanks, it's a
>jump-4 route. 
>

No, I specifically avoided the question.  I needed a closed system, I'm not
enamoured of drop tanks anyway, and two jump-4 legs would leave only 36% of
the initial ship volume in either direction as total payload fraction -
including all ship's systems and cargo.  Such trade might exist, but it
would not be economically viable or significant.

>>Using a "gravity" model - tonnage shipped is proportional to GWP and
>>profitability, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance in
>>legs between source and market - 
>
>IMO it should be tonnage shipped depends on the GWP and net profitability.
>We really should stick time in there as well, because time is money -
>someone has all this capital tied up in owning the cargo while it is
>between the worlds, money that could otherwise be earning a nice little
>packed in Hortalez et Cie bonds.
>

Distance *is* time, at least in Traveller: two weeks per jump, base case.
I already made the point that reducing time on intermediate stops is a
money-maker, if your freight is shipping more than one leg at a time.    

>But if you can make money shipping goods between 2 worlds, it doesnt matter
>how far apart they are.
>

I subtracted Cr900 per leg from gross profit, on the theory that charter
rates are the lowest that still make money consistently and that large
shipping lines would have reduced costs to the minimum.

>Transport costs are not a square function incidentally - do you have a copy
>of Hans' Passenger and Freight table ? Basically, jump-3 is the most
>efficient per-parsec way to transport goods long distances. (incidentally,
>this means the importance of jump-1 mains has been way overstated.
>Essentially, they are irrelevant for long-distance transport).
>

The "gravity" model is derived empirically (not by me, of course) from
real-world observations of the amount of trade between points, based on
distance and an "attactiveness" factor, which I have represented with GWP
and (net) profitability.  The actual fitted value of the exponent for
distance is 1.9 - close enough to squaring as makes little difference.

>>I worked out the fraction of total tonnage
>>shipped between each source-market pair, then multiplied by total tonnage
>>and divided by twice the number of legs to get the tonnage shipped per
>>week, then multiplied again by Cr4000/dton to get the value shipped.
>
>The high-volume trade routes will tend to get source prices lower than
>this, but market prices higher than this.
>

True - to be completely accurate, I should have used the traded cost and
price.    This seemed a useful approximation, as the differences are less
than a factor of 2 in most cases.

>>This implies to me that my total tonnage figure must be low - the
>>shipbuilding limits in TCS must represent "docks suitable for construction
>>of military ships" rather than the total available, or my assumptions about
>>new construction versus annual maintenance or the lifetimes of ships must
>>be skewed.  I've just started looking at alternatives.
>
>The maximum effective life of ships is something that has never really been
>defined. Personally, I think starship maintainence should be 1% per decade,
>and if your engineer gets a special success then the ship gets 1d6 years
>'younger'.
>

I used 40 years, the standard mortgage term.  For comparison, the IRS
depreciation tables list 18 years for amortization of ships, though this is
clearly skewed toward accelerated depreciation to reduce corporate taxes.

>Ian Whitchurch
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:44:12 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 07:53:47 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

<snip>

>Whether you're prosecuted or not, as others have said depends on the
resources
>and will of the Imperium.

>Something that seems to be getting lost here...the stated reason that the
>Imperium is governed the way it is is because of it's sheer size. That
>absolutely necessitates a hguge amount of local autonomous control, which
>means the law _will_ inevitably be prosected differently in different
places.

Yep.   All of the major interstellar powers govern rather loosely, I
think...

Third Imperium: Feudal rule, united by alliegance to the Emperor
Solomani Confederation: A federation of smaller nations, united by
   belief in Human supremacy
Aslan Hierate: Aslan clan rule, united by Aslan Tradition
Vargr Extents:  Umm, there's No Such Thing as a unified Vargr State
Hiver Confederation: Not much of a governement at all: it's main purpose
    of existance is so the Hiver's can spread their genetic material around.
Two Thousand Worlds: I know pratically nothing about the K'kree except the
    usual blurbs: we haven't had a sourcebook on them since Classic
Traveller.

    How DO they govern?  Do they care about their subject worlds at all,
just
    as long as they're vegan?  Do they have some Interstellar Society of
    Vegetarians organized throughout Charted Space?  Have they sent
    Green Missionaries  to every major spaceport?  How do they use
    science: as a necessary plague like the Vilani?   Or do they only
    care about social change, but are blase regarding tech?

>Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:56:21 -0600
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re:
>         A few responses to Walt Smith)
>At 10:16 pm 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more
>>conservative than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space
flight?
>>Why?  And why did they start expanding to the stars?
>Trick question ... the K'Kree didn't discover spaceflight on Earth!

OK, OK!

(Not that I'm above making that mistake again...)

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:53:57 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Query: High pop systems

I am curious as to the typical government and law 
level of TL E-G systems in the Third Imperium.
However, I don't have the world generation rules, 
and don't believe that there is a copy available on 
the internet, so I will ask my question 
here.

I am assuming that systems that meet all of the following requirement's
    1) high-pop 2) rich or industrial 3) TL 14-16
     are the most important, influencial systems in the Imperium
 
A] How many of these systems exist, per thousand? In the typical sector?
B] What are the average government code and law level of these systems?
C] (for bonus points!) How much interstellar trade would these systems 
     account for?  20%?  40%?

Many thanks,

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:12:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Food costs (Was: Slavery)

Ian writes:

>>I've heard that 10,000 Cr is the average annual wage for an Imperial
>>citizen.  I would venture to say that it costs more than that to support
>>a person on anything but lush world. 

Average food costs Cr2,400/year. Average accomodations cost Cr2,400/year.
Other expenses are not defined.

>>Thus slaves would be better off than free men. At least they know where
>>their next meal is coming from.

I once did some research on slavery in Ancient Rome that may be of interest
to you. (Note that specific information was very scanty and that I've
interpreted that information very freely, so this is not much more than a
guesstimate itself. I'd like to think  it is not too far from the truth,
though).

Basically, the price of a slave is two year's pay to a freeman performing
the best-paid job someone with the skills of that slave could get. A free 
field worker at the time of Cato recieved between 2/3rd and 5/6th of a 
denarius per day. An unskilled, 20 year old male slave cost 500 denarius. 
This is almost exactly 2 year's pay for the free field worker. This was
based on an expected return of 6% (25 denarius) pa. and on writing of
the slave in 20 years (another 25 denarius pa.). Cato reckoned the keep of 
the slave to be 1/3rd of the wage of a laborer = 128 denarius per year. 
(Incidentally, cost of living for a freeman laborer and his wife was 300
denarius per year or 5/6th of a denarius per day). Cato was a parsimonious 
man, however, and I guess that the 128 denarius is a lower limit. Other 
slave owners may have spent a bit more. Personally I'm going to use 1/3rd 
of the wage as a guideline, meaning that more valuable slaves are given 
better food and clothing than mere field slaves.

An older slave could be worth more because of his better skills and less
because of his lesser life expectancy.

Incidentally, I've no idea how a lesser life expectancy would affect the
price of a slave bought for a hard or dangerous occupation. The purchaser 
of a gladiator or a silver mine slave could certainly not expect to write 
him off over 20 years!
 
Luxury slaves could be worth quite a lot. Any unskilled slave costing more
than 625 denarius was taxed as a luxury item (3% instead of 1/10th of a
percent - an anual property tax, I think, but I'm not sure). Some quoted
prices for courtesans ran from 2000 to 6000 denarius and much more
expensive ones were propably possible.

>Assuming for a moment the prices in the Traveller trade system are vaguely
>related to the reality of the Traveller universe, a dton of produce from an
>Ag world will cost about KCr 6, plus call it KCr 4 transport costs (enough
>to go 5 parsecs or so).

I suggest that we do not assume any such thing. That particular trade system
is IMO so full of holes that it is useless.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 07:10:16 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Builder Software

Anson Betts wrote:
> 
> >"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone know of any Windows/DOS programs that will construct a
> >Traveller
> >World based on the rules in the MT World Builder's Handbook?
> 
> I've got a spreadsheet here for excel that does that. I got it from an
> archive somewhere... It's 25 KB zipped. If you would like me to e-mail you a
> copy just holler :)
> 
> Cheers,
>  Anson.

holler :vD

Jim Cooper
e-mail Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:49:40 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Dynastic roleplaying...

Dynastic roleplaying would fit into the
Traveller universe quite well, especially
with it's noble background and respect for
history.  In effect, you are playing the
lineage of a family (usually noble,
but commoner's also have families...)
over a long time period.  Just play the
interesting part's of a PC's life, then move
on to their children, grandchildren, etc.

Inheritable traits and the "genus" of a family
(that family's self-image, what it agrees on, 
it "spirit") would play major roles here.

Traveller has a long, rather detailed
history and a common ethos throughout
the rule of the thousand-year Third Imperium.  
Coupled with the slowness of technological
change and the stability of the political 
and economic systems - and the affinity
that Vilani socal systems have for 
stability - Traveller look's like an ideal
environment for Dyanstc gaming.

Things to note:
- - family allies and enemies
- - family religious/ideological belief's
- - the rise, fall, and recovery of family fortune
- - the unity or divisiveness of the family
- - the family's focus on military, economic, 
  religious, or political matters (or a mixture thereof)
- - the willingness or reluctance of the use of violence
- - the family's relations with the Imperial government
- - the family's relations with it's home base (a system,
  a corporation, etc.)
- - the family's relations with Imperial nobility
- - is the family Solomani?  Vilani? Something else?

Also, note how these things have changed over time, and their
initial set-up.  


From JamesG in rec.games.frp.gurps

>Steven Amundson wrote:
>> 
>> Dynasty-building for GURPS
>> 
>> It might add a nice flavor to a long-term GURPS campaign if players
>> who retire their characters can take their own children as new PCs.
>> Thus, even if Starmaster dies of old age, he can hand on his Precursor
>> artifacts to his son Albert.
>For anyone planning a dynastic campaign I recommend reading Edward
>Rutherford's epic "London - the Novel" (shoot, I recommend it to anyone
>regardless), it has good examples of how families can pass through
>history, many of them with inherited advantage and disadvantages etc.
>I'd deffinately suggest that if you want to follow the history of a
>mighty nation or whatever you do it in an episodic manner, detailing on
>the "exciting" bits, then skipping forward a few years (or generations!)
>It's the sort of campaign that will probably be heavy on the GM, but
>could be worth the effort.
>JamesG,
>feeling inspiration pestering him... 

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:47:34 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Subsector Duke's

It has been previously noted on this list that
the Subsector government is where the real
military decision's are made.   Let's stretch this,
and assume that the subsector-level of government
is where much of the action is organized politically 
and economically, as well.

Now, the subsector Duke has the basic responsibility
of upholding the Will of the Emperor in his area: if the
emperor decides to ban psionic's Imperium-wide, this 
Duke is the one who has to actually organize local resources to
meet the goal.  If the subsector is given additional tool's
by the Emperor/Archduke/Senior Duke, the subsector Duke
actually makes most of the decisions on who-get's-what
(with the help of the local Moot, of course)

This Duke also represent's the area to higher authority.
The Duke is NOT in charge of a system, not even the 
subsector capital: if he feel's that a system is being 
exploited, he can press on that particular
system's noble to fix things, but is limited in what he can 
do unless the exploiter does Something Clearly Stupid: 
*then* he send in the Marines.

The subsector Duke, however, is probably the first level of real 
resistance to major Sector, Domain, and MegaCorp business.  
If he feels that MegaCorp bribery is undermining the local nobility's
alliegance to the Crown, he can unilaterally start slapping
people around, laying punitive taxes, etc - and be backed by
the subsector fleet.  If he has the backing of the Sector Duke, 
he can even ban the Corp from local space until it clean's up
it's act.

Deciding which system get's major changes (ie. major terraforming, 
hundred's of million's of immigrant's, additional tech level's or 
Imperial bases and installation's) is usually a Sector-level decision.
However, the subsector Duke can lobby hard for his particular patch 
of systems to get the goodies.

As Head of the Subsector Legal Court, the subsector Duke also 
decides how the law will be interpreted, within the limit's set by his
lieges (Sr. Duke to Emperor).   He may refuse to hear legal cases, 
or refer them to the Subsector Moot, or even a commoner 
court, depending on how the local legal system is set up.  In all cases,
the subsector Duke has final say, subject only to his lieges.

Most subsector Dukes have multiple titles, and - as the ruler of
those systems and fief's - has multiple bases of political power.
(Additional votes in the Subsector Moot, for example)

Upon occasion, the subsector Duke might also have
control of the local military: the military chain of 
command is hazy in the Subsector and Sector levels.
(There are no fleet's organized at the Domain level: 
since there is no such thing as a Domain Admiral, 
the Archduke is automatically CinC.  Same at the
Imperium level.)  

Of course, many Admirals are nobles in their own right, but 
their fief's may be at the other side of the Imperium.

Moreover, there is also "unoffical" power that the subsector Duke has.
The Duke is *always* independently wealthy, and often has
a few side businesses that he is allowed to favour (ie subsidies,etc)
to a limited extent (no, he can't make his agribusiness conglomerate
the ONLY source of food in the subsector - but he can make sure that
it always has 10% of the subsector market).  The Duke is also at the top
of the local social pyramid: he decides who's "in" and "out", who 
should be shamed and ostracised, and who should be respected and
publicly praised.   

 (Most system nobles fear the Duchy Court a lot more than the
  Imperial Court, when it comes to High Society: they might go to
  Capital/Core/Core maybe twice in their entire life, but they need to 
  deal with the subsector Court on a routine basis.)

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #727
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 728



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood 
Count your blessings...
Query re Advert for Wrekt Enterprises in Challenge issue 36
Re: Slavery, from a different view...  
Re: Query re Advert for Wrekt Enterprises in Challenge issue 36
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)
re 50ton fighter
Slavery by Margaret
Facts not in evidence
No K'Kree Invasion
[none]
test - please ignore
Monitoring from within the GG
Detecting Deep meson Sites
Sensor Question
Why Iridium?
[ad][WWW][zine] Freelance Traveller has been updated!
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Slavery
Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:29:44 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood 

>First, thanks for the many responses on the
>K'kree!  So the Centaur's hatred of carnivores
>outweigh their hatred of change - an interesting
>insight into their psychology.

I don't think K'kree "hatred of change" would restrict their exploration or
technical innovation. My understanding of the K'kree is that they are
*socially* conservative and not *technologically* conservative. In
MegaTraveller Journal 4, the K'kree take enormous risks and embrace things
like genetic engineering of themselves in order to expand their influence.
However, their social and military structure has remained unchanged for
millenia.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 12:56:52 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Count your blessings...

There are a number of interesting things that
did NOT develop in Imperial history, who's absence
is a Good Thing.  The fact that they never
developed can be laid at the feet of Vilani 
conservativism, Solomani monotheisim,
or the vigourous independence of the
local systems.  Here's my hitlist
of Things that Never Were (Thank God!)

* The God-Emperor.  The Emperor has an
astounding amount of power and wealth: it would
be a cinch for him to create a personality cult
around himself.  Moreover, if you define godhood
strictly by the amount of power you have, then the
Emperor certainly qualifies as a god in the 
traditional pagan understanding. [1]

Yet NONE of the Emperor's - not even Lucan - 
tried to create such a cult.  Perhaps 
they were afraid of all the dirt the interstellar 
press could dig up, or riot's on every monotheistic 
society, or some massive revolt led by high-pop,
high-tech Imperial theocracies?

* Immortal nobility.  Anagathic's are currently
discouraged from noble use.  In a different, less
disiplined society, anagathtic's could be limited
ONLY for noble use.  Or immortality could be
obtained through genetic engineering.

The probable reason for this never happening
is the Younger Nobility, endlessly waiting for their
elder's to die.  This may have been tried before
ona smaller scale, and the younger nobility, 
after slaughtering their elders, resolved never 
to allow anti-aging technology to be used among 
themselves.

* Master Race. The Imperial Nobility define 
themselves as servant's to the Emperor.  Had
the nobility decided that they should instead define
themselves as superiour to the commoner's
they would have set up a genetic research program,
to make themselves as truly superiour.

Why did this never take off?  Well, this probably did 
happen in some subsector or another, but word
leaked out.  A serious uproar develops, and the
Emperor, to save his own throne, kills the guilty
nobility. [The charge?  Conspiring to overthrow the 
Emperor (High Treason) and Conspiracy to Enslave/
Genocide Imperial populations.]  Moreover, by law
no genetic "master race" may hold any noble title.

* The Levathian State.  Taxation is quite limited: 
and the Imperium doesn't even tax individuals or
world-bound business (except at the starport, or
Imperal systems under military occupation).
It's in the nature of governments to continually
expand their tax base, and to have an ever-expanding
bureaucracy.

This might have actually occurred at one time, but the
Civil War put an end to it.  Remember that Imperial
Buraucracy that ran the Imperium while the war was
fought?  Well, assume that Arbellatra decided that 
money needed to be found to repair the damage, and
decided to carve that funding from the hide of the
bureaucracy.  (The massively reduced tax rate 
helping out her popularity, and solidifying her 
hold on the throne).

Moreover, remember that she terminated
the Archduke of Antares for the treason of Not 
Supporting Her?  Assume that the bureaucracy 
got a massive downsizing for that same reason (not
as bloody - most were merely fired, and given a 
one-way ticket home...)   In addition, she zapped most
of the bureaucracy's power, returning it to her 
nobles (aka "Friends of Arbellatra").

* The Imperial Church.  Certainly, some of the
42 Emperor's and Emperess' of the Imperium
must have been devout follower's of their
religion (or ideology, if atheist).  They have the
ship's, they have the men, and they've got the
money too - why not get *everyone* to follow
the One True Faith?

In all probability, because A) they would have
angered a massive number of Vilani, who do not
want some religion interfering with their traditions
B) they would have angered the high-pop systems, 
who would have seen this as a stealthy way to get 
more power in the hand's of the Emperor 
C) They would have caused Serious Problems
with not only the system theocracies, but with the nobles
who have their (non-Imperial) titles based on local 
religions D) they would have angered the Solomani,
who are known for their devoutness to their God, 
compared to other forms of humaniti.

Moreover, it's unlikely that even devout 
Emperor's would really want to share
power with an Imperial Church, unless they control that
church as well.  Then you get the God-Emperor
issue...

[1] "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you
   are children of the most High.
   But ye shall die like men,
   and fall like one of the princes." - Ps. 82 6,7

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:15:31 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Query re Advert for Wrekt Enterprises in Challenge issue 36

Hi

  Does anyone know of products from the advert for Wrekt Enterprises
in Challenge issue 36, page 75.


On Page 75 there is an advert from

Wrekt Enterprises

MegaTraveller supplements include:
Black Friday (adventure)
Under Ancru (adventure)
Psionic Handbook (supplement)
Spica Sector (supplement)

MegaTraveller software

The MegaCompanion (r) Series

TIA







Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:56:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...  

> > If dogs were not on Vland, or for that matter the other Human settled
> > worlds prior to Terran contact, I wonder what the reaction was when the
> > Vargr first encountered Terrans and their dogs.  Perhaps they might have
> > viewed that as the Terrans opressing their "little brothers"...
>
> I think dogs and canines would be seen more as the Vargr equivalent of
> primates (pre-Proto-Vargr).  Are there people (outside of some animal rights
> nuts) who object to the "lil brothers" being in zoo's?  Course, w/ the
> Vargr... who can tell? ; )  Pets of the World, unite?

One could imagine Vargr being at least a little startled by the variety of
dog breeds and the strong servile streak that has been bred into them.
One could also imagine revenge-minded Vargr breeding monkeys as pets to
develop specific characteristics - breeding them to look as much like
miniature humans as possible, but with exaggerated baboon-like posteriors,
for example.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 12:45:42 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Query re Advert for Wrekt Enterprises in Challenge issue 36

At 06:15 PM 8/9/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>  Does anyone know of products from the advert for Wrekt Enterprises
>in Challenge issue 36, page 75.
>
>
>On Page 75 there is an advert from
>
>Wrekt Enterprises
>
>MegaTraveller supplements include:
>Black Friday (adventure)
>Under Ancru (adventure)
>Psionic Handbook (supplement)
>Spica Sector (supplement)
>
>MegaTraveller software
>
>The MegaCompanion (r) Series
>
>TIA

To the best of my knowledge (after repeated attempts to purchase the
products listed above when they were first advertised) these items were
never actually released.

L8r,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

 
Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote: 
> >>Using a "gravity" model - tonnage shipped is proportional to GWP and
> >>profitability, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance in
> >>legs between source and market - 
>
> Ian Whitchurch wrote:
> >IMO it should be tonnage shipped depends on the GWP and net profitability.
> >We really should stick time in there as well, because time is money -
> >someone has all this capital tied up in owning the cargo while it is
> >between the worlds, money that could otherwise be earning a nice little
> >packed in Hortalez et Cie bonds.  
>  
> The "gravity" model is derived empirically (not by me, of course) from
> real-world observations of the amount of trade between points, based on
> distance and an "attactiveness" factor, which I have represented with GWP
> and (net) profitability.  The actual fitted value of the exponent for
> distance is 1.9 - close enough to squaring as makes little difference.

	Do you have any citations for the "gravity" model?

	I don't think squaring the distance is a crazy idea since it's not
just the cost of transport that matters, it's also the time it takes to
get goods to market.  If you accept Ian's argument (which I do) that
economies of scale & specialization are going to play a big role in
interstellar trade, then you have to imagine that a great deal of trade 
is in intermediate goods -- goods that are inputs into other products.  
Since coordinating a supply chain in terms of inventory, design specs, 
defects, etc. is a communication intensive business, message lag times 
will be important.  Even in today's world of instant global 
communication, many manufacturers like to have their suppliers as close 
as possible.

	Also, the profitability of trade between two worlds is probably 
the thing most in need of fixing in the Traveller trade system.  As Ian 
has pointed out, economies of scale play a big role in RW trade.  
Increasing TLs are only likely to increase the benefits from 
specialization and make trade in intermediate goods more attractive.  We 
don't necessarily need to model this directly, but we do need a reason 
for the longer range trade that canon history says takes place.  Under 
current Trav trade rules, there's rarely reason to leave the subsector.  
Where's the adventure in that?  

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:24:23 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computers, websites, K'kree (was: Re: A few responses to Walt  Smith)

> >Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
> >than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
> >And why did they start expanding to the stars?
> 
> So they could kill there carnivorus oppressers who lived on there
> homeworlds moon, and who came from the stars ....

Uh... no.  The K'kree, shortly after unifying their world (and eliminating
*all* of the native carnivores (meaning anything that ate any amount of meat),
discovered that their moon was inhabited by intelligent beings.  Their studies
let them conclude that the native sophonts were carnivores (descended from
chasers).  The k'kree went from TL7 to developing fusion power, antigravity
(CG IMTU <g>), amongst others, completely skipping rocketry and primitive
spacecraft, etc...   The century long war also led to further development.
When they discovered Jump Drive they decided to make the universe safe and
eliminate or convert every meat eater they could find.  Colonization and such
were strictly secondary to that goal.  Converts were conquered and the
obstinate meat eaters were eradicated.
   Then they encountered the Hivers.  The Hivers were in the process of
uplifting a species that the K'kree had decided to eliminate
(omnivore/hunters).  The K'kree also learned that the Hive Federation included
carnivores and omnivores (gasp!).  War naturally resulted.

> >Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
> >attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?

Numerous reasons.   Distance.  Problems of interstellar govt, and others.
They haven't been expansionist since the Hiver-K'kree war. 
 
> But humans can be vegitarian, lots are, omnivours aren't carnivores. Also
> distance as you say and technological disadvantage probably.

The K'kree hate anything that eats meat, regardless of whether it eats its
veggies, too.  Omnivores have as much to fear as carnivores.  All meat-eaters
must beware the K'kree... I, for one, find the K'kree's exploits with their
neighbors on their moon to be pretty horrific.  No attempt at dialogue, no
parley, no quarantine... just a war to exterminate them.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 13:41:38 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: re 50ton fighter

have done a FF&S2 TL-15, 50Td fighter. But before I post it, I need an
answer on a small item: how do I figure the range values for the T4 "range
Bands"? I have T4 and FF&S2, but not Starships... so I know that the DV at
500km is 15. (assuming P-Bm/NPAW inputs in Mj, ranges figured in meters,
and no typoes in that section).

Also, on Meson Beams, also FF&S2: Inputs in Mj? Ranges in km or m?

Gawd I'm glad IG is no-longer failing to edit products....

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 13:48:44 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Slavery by Margaret

>>> Slavery is an Imperial crime as sources on the rebellion from GDW and DGP
>>> tell us. Margaret is portrayed as being so narrowminded free-trade
>>> proponent that she enen allows slavery within her borders - a true break
>>> with Imperial tradition.
>
>>Who's Margaret?  Perhaps someone should have a word with her.
>>"Margart, meet Nat Turner.  Nat, meet Margaret."
>
>>I'm joking.
>
>Hee! Hee! ;-p
>
>Are we, Referee, sure Margaret allowed (I've heard it said she did
>more than *allow*) slavery, or are these more in the line of rumors?
>
Margie dear had declared (within her space) thatafter a certain percentage
of cybernetics was attained, the suject was no longer a sophont, imperial
(margret's faction, at least) citizen, nor a protected being. So slavery
was techinically legal if the slaves were cybered sufficiently. Makes me
think of "Toolies" from some movie I wish I could remember the title of ....

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 13:57:47 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Facts not in evidence

>The part about the Imperium not being similar to any historical state was
>intended to steer the discussion towards issues about wether ths or that
>epoch/state etc that historically fit the Imperium good enough to be used
>as a model. History may repeat itself but as the Imperium was created by
>Marc W et al (remember) it may not necessarily fit any real government.

It actually parallels certain periods of Imperial Russia, and has parallels
in american history.

>Beside the fact(?) that the Imperium DOES NOT RESEMBLE THE US (no yanks in
>space please) what historical state etc does it resemble, the Hansa states?

Not a fact at all, Anders. The Fact in evidence is that the ranking systems
in all editions of traveller which I have ever seen are derived from US
structures. With the noteable exception of marines, who seem to be only
slightly deviant, as perfectly beifts all marines I've met (US, Can, and
RMC).


The more I read about the imperium, the more I understand it to be "Yanks
in space with imperial russian meritocratic nobility. And all the other
historians I've loaned copies to see those same parallels, if pointed out.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:04:48 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: No K'Kree Invasion

>Question: The K'kree are a very conservative race, even more conservative
>than the Vilani.  How on earth did they discover space flight? Why?
>And why did they start expanding to the stars?

Same reasons they discovered flight, etc. The occasional K'Kree is
dangerously deranged, and if he's not a loner, he might actually do
something useful!

as for expansion, based upon the K'Kree supplement, they believe the stars
their destiny. Rulers to be of all they can survey. They can see with the
naked K'kree eyeball about two-thousand stars....

>
>Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
>attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?

More like a realization that they'd not survive as a species... genocidal
war tends to draw genocidal solutions from more than just the target. The
3rd imperium is larger, with better tech levels than the 2kworlds... which
are only around 6-700 mainworlds....

Also, they only exterminated those which were on worlds they were planning
to exploit soon, and adapted others that they could. Humans can be adapted;
the K'Kree would feel there is hope for the "outworlder" humans. Cannon
provides that there are humans in the 2kworlds as minor races.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:06:24 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [none]

>Obviously the letter of the law...but the spirit?  Could this happen in the
>Imperium? Is Imperial justice tempered w/ mercy?
>
>DustyLV769@aol.com

IMTU, all local judgments may be appealed to the local nobleman. Not that
most are; moost nobles refuse to hear unless they feel a GREAT injustice
has been done.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 16:06:25 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: test - please ignore

I'm just testing my new email server that I've spent all day configuring. Please
ignore this message.

Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:29:09 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Monitoring from within the GG

>Query: If you're deep enough in a Gas Giant that the atmosphere hides you
>from sensors, how do you know when to come out?  Obviously your sensors
>are screwed too, if
>not scrubbed off entirely...
>

Small, automated meson-comm sensor-buoys in orbit, others in atmosphere on
gravitics. The latter could also be providing power by being constantly
skimming, then sending some of it as meson fire to a power reciever on the
orbitals.

Network these, and you can have a good view, while being totally out of
view. Especially if dumps are hourly, based upon sending the consolidator
drone your location, to which it sends data, then you scoot.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 23:30:31 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Detecting Deep meson Sites

Okay, so you're attacking a planet and you need to find the
deep meson sites.

Why not use a specially designed meson locator ship?

The Target class, Deep Site Meson Locator is based around a spherical
hydrogen fuel tank (over 25,000std) specially designed so that it can
function as a bubble chamber.

Combined with the use of advanced monitoring devices and highly armoured
crew, electronics and power sections, any meson attack will be detected
and the direction can be determined. Several such shots should enable
a location to be determined sufficient for counter battery fire.

The Target class is designed to appear like a heavily armoured battle
rider - an ideal target for a deep meson site - its agility close to
planets should be enough to discourage missile attacks, along with its
point defence lasers.

To increase its utility outside of planetary attacks, the Target class
also functions as a fuel shuttle.

Target Class class
Deep Meson Site Locator (FF&S v2 Andy Akins)
Designed by Postmark Design Bureau

Statistics
        Tons:               30,000std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )
        Volume:             420,000m3
        Mass (L/C):         244,450t/219,292t
        Dimensions:         92.9m diameter
        Size:               10
        Crew:               115/151
        Cost:               4498.163 MCr
        Maintenance Points: 6715
        Tech Level:         12

Electronics
        Controls (/Ar: 130 [2000]): Dynamic, High automation.
                 4xFibComp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5).
                 Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160).
                 Bridge (/Ar:130[2000]).
        Communications (/Ar: 130 [2000]): 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW).
                                          1xLaser (1,000AU, 0  MW).
        Sensors (/Ar: 130 [2000]): 3xPas. Scanner (12.5 [1.6mkm],0MW).
                                   1xPEMS         (12.5 [1.6mkm],0MW).
        Survey/Science (/Ar :130 [2000]): 1xNeutrino (8 [50km],1MW).
        Signatures: Vis:0,   IR:1 (1 at 15,132MW, 0.5 at 1,930MW),
                    Act:0.5, Neu:1, Grav:1

Weaponry
   30 x Turret (+4) 1/4-2-0-0 [1,200/40-20-10-5] (SR)

Performance
    0    Jump
1.5/1.6  Maneuver    (/Thruster:8925MW /Ar:100 [1000])
1.5/1.6  Contra-grav (6069MW /Ar:100 [1000])
2,843kph Atmosphere  (/Crus:2132kph/2362kph)
    1    Power       (/Fus: 19,300MW, 0.2yr )
1,872.1  Fuel        (/Scoop: 21 /Purif: 12hr)
  151    Small Sr.   (/Ar: 70 [400])
  416    Life Sup.   (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
    2    G-Comp
70 [400] Armor, 47 Structure

Features
        100xAirlock
        1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:30 /Ar: 70 [400])

Backups
        Drives:         1 x ContraGrav 1.5G / 1.6G.
        Communications: 3 x Laser (5km).

Crew Details
        8xMnvr. 75xEngr. 12xMain. 30xGunn. 20xCmnd. 5xStew. 1xMed.


Phil Kitching

- -- 
- - --
  Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT for any of this, they only pay me:)
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo (sorry no Traveller)
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:55:41 EDT
From: Qstor@aol.com
Subject: Sensor Question

From reading the past discussions on the list and from the material in A Long
Way Home I get the picture that ships are only dectectable from a distance of
10 AU's and that planets can be dectected up to 2 parasecs away? Is this
right..I hope I'm not beating a dead horse :) TIA

Mike McKeown

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:11:17 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Why Iridium?

Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
What's Iridium?

I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
pen points and bearings.  But, what is the symbolic meaning for it
to be used in the Iridium Crown of the Third Imperium?


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:51:01 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [ad][WWW][zine] Freelance Traveller has been updated!

Freelance Traveller has been updated!

The Computer Connection is open, with listings of some software
that we feel may be of interest to the Traveller community. The
selection is very small right now, but we hope that you'll help
us expand the listings by telling us about other available
software.  See the page for more info.

A new NPC, Lyons Carlton, has been profiled in Up Close and
Personal. 

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 23:24:14 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

At 09:11 PM 8/9/1998 CDT, you wrote:
>Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>What's Iridium?
>
>I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
>pen points and bearings.  But, what is the symbolic meaning for it
>to be used in the Iridium Crown of the Third Imperium?

It's more common in space than it is on Earth.
For instance, the impact theory of dinosaur
extinction got started when geologist Walter
Alvarez mentioned a layer of clay at 65 million
years ago with abnormaly high levels of irridium
to his father, astrophysicist Luis Alvarez.


If that situation holds for other planetary bodies,
then it is symbolic of "ruling not planets, but
the space between them."

JB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 20:18:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slavery

In mail you write:

> What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free" either?
> (and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)

By modern definitions it *is* slavery*. After all, you are legally
*forbidden* to leave your land and take up some other sort of work.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:48:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II

In mail you write:

>
> This exam question reminds me of one asked in a colloquium at my
> university in chemistry:
>
> If your knight stands at Al(uminum), which elements do you reach?

Nitrogen, Arsenic, Tin, Cadmium and Copper.

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #728
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Traveller-digest       Monday, August 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 729



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Honor Harrington
Re: HR Directors
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Lost Legions
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Fighters
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Limelights
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Update of my Ship of the IW page
Re: Lost Legions
Re: A few responses to Walt Smith
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Traveller World Builder Software

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:25:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> These are a lot of fun... and if you thought missiles moving at a few
> hundred Gs of accel are impressive...

Alas, Weber has a bad habit of not thinking things thru. For example,
his masses for SuperDreadnoughts are *way* too low. And he has missiles
accelerating at a bit above .3 c per second. For 20 seconds. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:21:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HR Directors

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson:
>
>> You think Catbert is an evil HR director, meet Tony 'the Fish'...
> Or my personal fave: Eddie "Two Thumbs" Arturo
>
> Q: Why do they call him that?
> A: He has two thumbs.
> Q: Doesn't _everybody_ have two thumbs?
> A: These aren't his...

Oh.


He's still better than Tony "Donuts" ???. (From one of Spider
Robinson's books.

He got the nickname because of an icident many years back. He was
raping a guy's wife and the guy had the temerity to try to stop him. So
Tony took a couple of nails and... <shudder> let's just say he
immobilized the guy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
2 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 20:06:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

In mail you write:

> By the way, does anybody have a diagram of a Gas Giant detailing atmospheres 
> at various altitudes and gravity at same?  Plus the comparison to the 10 and 
> 100 diameter limits?

You can find such diagrams in astronomy texts and various articles.

Note that the gravity won't increase very fast as you go deeper,
because the mass of any atmosphere farther out than you are no longer
affects you (for gravity). 

Pressures go up fairly fast. I don't recall what temperatures do.

It's escape velocity that's the killer.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:23:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>> And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
>> duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
>> for *their* purposes.
>
> And how is that different from a job?

You get paid for a job, and if you are willing to take the loss of pay,
you can quit. That makes it *voluntary* servitude. *Involuntary*
servitude is a different matter. So are kidnapping and "false
imprisonment" (the difference between the last two being that
kindanapping consists of dragging you off somewhere and then confining
you, whereas "false imprisonment" can be as simple as refusing to
unlock a double-locked door to let a person *leave* a place they
entered voluntarily)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:02:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

In mail you write:

> On 08/05/98 at 02:44 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> said:
>
>>Norton's SF (as opposed to her fantasy) has lots of good ideas for
>>Traveller. Matter of fact, if I had the money and experience, I'd try
>>to get her to agree to a "sourcebook" for SF RPGs based on her books.
>>Heck, do another on Witchworld and the like for the Fantasy buffs.
>
>>Loren? Any chance SJ Games would be interested in doing a Norton
>>"sourcebook" for Gurps? I'd *love* to have the "official" word on her
>>alien races, organizations like the Patrol, Free Traders and the
>>Guild. Ditto for the various Forerunner artifacts. And all the neat
>>planets she came up with. 
>
> I agree it would be great to have an Andre Norton's Universe
> sourcebook. 
>
> However, I seem to remember that she died a year or two ago. Am I
> wrong?

Well, considering that I just bouight a new Solar Queen book, and it
says nothing about her being dead...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:09:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

In mail you write:

>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, diamond substrates aren't all that expensive to produce
>>> *now*. And there are persistent rumors that there's *some* way to
>>> "dope" diamond so as to make useful semiconductors from it.
>>>
> [snip]
>>Diamond substrate
>>chips with Cu conductors, gallium arsenide semiconductors and optical
>>memory would make for a howling fast computer. We be talking gigahertz
>>speeds here folks, tens and hundreds of gigahertz.
>
> Reminds me of a Heinlien story (The Door into Summer) where he envisons a
> future where Gold is cheap and plentiful and, being an excellent conductor,
> replaced copper in many circuits and functions.

Actually, gold is a *worse* conductor than copper. Silver is better
than copper. And it's about the only thing that is.

Gold is useful because of its malleability and ductility *and* because
its so corrosion resistant. So you'd expect plumbing to be gold plated.
Especially sewer pipe. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:04:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target a ship in
> space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers and laser sighting
> for this. they can be hit with anti radar missles with ease.

Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
*optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of a
garbage can.

Add in a fiber optic comm grid, and it's gonna be *really* hard to
prevent tracking. Especially when you can take *amateur* grade
telescopes and synthesize some damn good tracking data. 

Scopes that good or better will be on the local Internet equivalent and
more common than cameras are on the current internet. Normally, they'd
be used for things like tracking comets (or shipping!) by local citizens. 
In time of war, they'd be like the "coast watch" stations the Aussie
had all over the place. 

You run into the problem of deciding what is an isn't "civilian". And
worse, while it might be perfectly justifiable to decalre such things
"military" targets, *politically* it's not justifiable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:27:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> Joe Pettit wrote:
>>
>> > > And how is kidnapping different from slavery? Other than the (possible)
>> > > duration, the situation is the same. You are being controlled by others
>> > > for *their* purposes.
>> >
>> > And how is that different from a job?
>>
>> You are rarely silenced with duct tape and thrown in a car trunk on a
>> job, unless you're working for the Mob, and that is actually less a part
>> of the job than one of HR's mandated severance and termination policies.
>
> I was refering to the stated similarity of slavery and kidnapping "being
> controlled by others for *their* purposes".  The typical schmoe is being
> controlled by his boss to what the boss wants.  Sure, he gets paid for it, 
> but
> that wasn't part of the distinction above.
>
> I think the similarity above is that you're being held against your will 
> rather
> than working for it.  Which then raises the question of prisoners.

Now you understasnd why the amendment repealing slavery in the US says
"... except as punishment for a crime..." when talking about
"involuntary servitude".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:17:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> 'intention' is the necessary mental state that is an element of the
> crime.  it must be proved or no crime has been committed.

You should clarify this by noting that intent to commit the action in
question is required. That is, if you *intended* to turn on the ships
Heplar drive, you are going to be in trouble even if you didn't intend
the *consequences* (vaporizing the crewman who was inspecting the
drive). 

> 'ignorance' - well, i have yet to encounter a legal system where
> ignorance of the law has excused anyone's conduct, but its a big
> universe.  ignorance that a violation took place is different though.
> proof of it may negate responsibility for some classes of crimes,
> especially those that involve cooperative acts of multiple defendants,
> such as conspiracy crimes.

Well, given the increasing complexity of the laws, I wouldn't be
surprised to see a system where ignorance of some obscxure clause of
the law *would* be an acceptable excuse, if your conduct was otherwise
"sensible". 

In this, I'm going for an extension of the "reasonable man" standard in
that a "reasonable man" could not be expected to know about the law in
question. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:26:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>> >  That makes it nigh
>> > impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a slavery ring. Sure, they
>> > COULD drop out of the sky
>> > and bust up a suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court.
>>
>> I beg to differ.  The enslaved person is going to be allowed to
>> testify.And IMHO and Legal Experience, even if the victim doesn't
>> testify,
>> it wouldn't be hard to prove the case at all.  And thats assuming that
>> the Imperium's courts are as liberal as modern Terra.
>
> Without local enforcement, the Imperium wouldn't hear about it.  If the
> local government supports slavery, the Imperium would be totally in the
> dark.  Of course if local government held slavery to be illegal that's a
> different story.  All I'm saying is that the Imperium can't enforce slavery
> laws without local help, thus it should be local jurisdiction.  Now, if the
> Imperium wants no slavery, they can write that into the treaty when a new
> world signs up.  One of the tenets would be outlawing slavery.  Of course
> that would make slavery High Treason as it would threaten the Imperial
> treaty.

I guess you weren't paying attention. The wehole point has been that
the Imperium *does* require that member worlds enforce certain laws,
and the ban on slavery is part of this.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:34:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters

In mail you write:

>>While T-Plates may only
>>have 6G, HEPlaR and similar can easily generate short bursts of 18 or 20
>>G... well within the 6 percieved G limit for comfortable operation.  
>
> Ummm, I wouldnt want my pilots to be pulling 6 gees for more than 10
> seconds or so. Definitly not maneuvering at 6 gees over the compensators
> for tens of minutes on end, which you tend to have to do to try and avoid
> laser fire.

The thing is, you are taking those 6 g while lying flat on your back.
And any manuevers involve a *small* side acceleration  to get the main
drive pointed in the proper direction. Thias is true even for spinning
the ship 180 to decelerate. The thrust of the main drive *always* goes
in the same direction *relative to the pilot*.

This isn't at all like atmospheric fighters where you use control
surfaces against the airstream to change directions. There. the
accelerations from rapid turns tend to be in *bad* directions, such as
"head to feet" instead of "front to back".

NASA and Air Force studies show that there's very little problem
handling extended periods oif accelerastion on your back. 

So the "rules" for "g-tolerance" for aerial combat just plain *don't
apply* in space combat. 

>>And, while there are no radar horizons, there is diminishing signature. And
>>there are HARMS... so active sensors could mean death of the sensor.
>
> Nope. Active sensors are too short range to use effectivly. Most everything
> in serious combat will use passive sensors.

Huh? You must be using the pre-t4 sensor rules. Active sensor ranges
are in the light second regime.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:49:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

In mail you write:

> Now that I have thought about the subject, I'm having trouble
> understanding how a fuel purification plant is supposed to work.  Jump
> fuel is LH2, right?  Liquid hydrogen?  And unpurified fuel is either
> water or what you can scoop from a gas giant, which I presume is gaseous
> H2 with lots of other gases as impurities, right?
>
> So, OK, let's assume you fill your tank with water, and run your
> purifier.  That means you must take water out of the tank, crack it,
> vent the O2, and put the H2 right back in the same tank.  You have to
> keep doing this until there's nothing but pure H2 left in your tank,
> then I suppose you liquify it.  And you are supposed to end up with a
> full tank of LH2, sufficient for your jump drive.  Huh?

Actually, the above *will* work (sort of). You see. a cubic meter of
liquid water contains more hydrogen than a cubic meter of liquid
hydrogen! It also *masses* about a lot more.

> Or you start with a tank full of (presurized, I suppose) GG scoopings. 
> Now you're supposed to separate the good H2 from the bad impurities,
> vent the impurities, liquify the H2, and again end up with a tank full
> of LH2.  Hmmm...

Most simple hydrogen compounds contain more hydrogen by *volume* than
liquid hydrogen does. 

But the way I see it, the problem with the standard view is that you
*can't* store water and LH2 in the same tank. And doing so with gas
giant atmosphere and liquid hydrogen has its own problems. You really
want to have unrefined fuel in a *seperate* tank. from the one the
refined fuel will wind up in.

There are several techinques for "easily" seperating hydrogen from
other gases. For example, there are a lot of materials that hydrogen
will diffuse thru but nothing else will. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:41:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> Well, what if you claim your slaves as dependents under the Imperial
> taxation laws?  When you buy said slave, you instead call it adopting
> and then you meddle with a few of the child labor laws... Voila! de
> facto slavery.

One major difference is that a depedent can leave, if of legal age, and
if *not* lergal age, can petition the courts to either be assigned a
new guardian, or if capable of supporting himself, petition for
"emancipated minor" status.

A slave can do none of these things.

> What about the old mining companies where you get paid in scrip.
> Valueless outside the corporation.  All your stuff is corporate
> property.  So the boss may say go ahead and quit, you have no means
> of supporting yourself outside the corporate enclave.  Is that
> slavery?

As I recall, the courts eventually *di* decide that it amounted to
slavery. That's why companies can't do that anymore.

>   So the question is Where is that line?  Like I said, its gray.  If
> it weren't gray, we'd either still have slavery in the USA or it
> never would have existed.

No, the line wasn't gray, it was merely drawn in different places at
different times. *All* the changes have been due to changes in
*definition*, for example the change in determining that blacks were
"people".

And BTW, we *do* still have slavery in the US. Mostly it's called
"prison". But there are quite recent cases of charges of slavery being
filed against people for importing "servants" from Mexico and then
confining them, not paying them and even beating them.

> Since it is such a gray matter, I can't see the Imperium wasting so much 
> resources to enforce it.

Again, while the rules may change at any given point in time they are
quite clear. And like any other law, they *will* be enforced.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:34:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Limelights

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:22:04 -0400, shadow@krypton.rain.com
> (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>If you are at a reasonable distance from a star you can do it that way.
>>Or you can get a nice *bright* light source by having a oxy-hydrogen
>>flame playing on a piece of limestone (that's how those monster
>>spotlights they have at movie premieres and various "grand openings"
>>work. The amount of oxygen and hydrogen required to power a light for a
>>reader is pretty darn miniscule. 
>
>>Y'know, give the large amounts of hydrogen on most ships, and the ned
>>for oxygen for life-support, oxy-hydrogen powered "limelights" might
>>make a better backup light source than battery powered lights!
>
>>Among other things, they have the advantage of *not creating electrical
>>or magnetic fields that could interfere with unshielded circuitry being
>>repaired, and as long as you have protective covers over any ports,
>>there'd be no indication from the outside that the ship wasn't a dead
>>hulk (except for the IR output, but there are lots of reasons why the
>>ship could stay hot for long periods after being knocked out. 
>
> OTOH, they have the very nasty _disadvantage_ of generating
> quantities of a colorless, odorless gas that bonds _very_ well
> with hemoglobin - and never lets go.  Death by carbon monoxide
> poisoning is _not_ a recommended recreational activity.

Huh? Do you have documentation for this? Carbon monoxide production by
*oxyhdrogen* jets playing on limestone, that is.

Among other details, there's damn little carbon *present* once they've
reached operating temp *once*. After that, the "lime" part is calcium
oxide. And since you are using hydrogen and oxygen in the flame, you
*can't* produce carbon monoxide!  You *do produce a lot of water vaopr
though. And it's not that hard to set things up to *start* with an
oxide, rather than a carbonate. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:55:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> The problem I have with this is that you'd have to be a completely
> inept MORON to NOT figure out a way to skirt the Imperial Slavery
> Laws.

No, you just don't understand how legal systems *work*.

> 1. Ship slaves in low births.  There's nobody to question if the Navy
>    pulls you over for speeding.

Aside from the large loses in slaves you'll suffer, if they have reason
to suspecrt you of running slaves, they *can* revive them and ask.

> 2. Don't call it Buying/Selling slaves, simply call it passage and
>    recruiting fees.

Won't matter. If they can confirm that the sophonts *were* placed in
slavery and that you *knew* this was what was going to happen, they can
still throw the book at you.

> 3. Force all "recruits" to sign trainee contracts whereby they are
>    learning a trade and have their food and lodging supplied by the
>    "employer"

Contracts signed under duress are invalid. Attempting to coerce someone
into signing a contract is a felony in *every* jurisdiction I've ever
heard of.

Also, contracts requiring either party to commit an illegal act are in
themselves illegal.

> 4. Control the life of trainees so they don't complain by some means. 

That is illegal in and of itself. In fact that *constiutues either
slavery or at least "illegal imprisonment all by itself!

>    Addiction to a drug.

Illegal, in anmd of itself, given the motive this *alone* is enough to
convict you of slavery.

>    Restriction to pressurized locations on vacuum planets.

Illegal imprisonment.

>    Give them a disease that need regular treatments.

Illegal. And again given the *motive*, enough to convict you of slavery.

>    "Training Collars".  Brain washing.  Hold family hostage. The list
>     goes on and on...

And every single one of those constitues slavery in and of itself. 

> Now I'm sure it looks nice on the books to SAY that Slavery is
> illegal in the Imperium. But anybody smart enough to run a ship
> should be smart enough to skirt the issue.

As I note above, all of your dodges are crimes in and of themselves
(slavery, kidnapping, or illegal imprisonment). 

> That makes it nigh impossible for the Imperium to LEGALLY bust a
> slavery ring. Sure, they COULD drop out of the sky and bust up a
> suspected ring, but it wouldn't hold up in court. 

Wrong. It's no harder than busting *any* criminal ring. And every
single dodge you've given above would IN ITSELF be sufficient evidence
to convict you!

> And if the law was written in such a way that it would stick, it
> would also cover ALL of those exploitation cases.

What "exploitation cases"? If you are talking about your silly attempts
to hide the fact that you are *enslaving* those people, sorry, but they
don't make judges and juries *stupid* enough to fall for that sort of
nonsense.

> Which is bad for business.

Nope. Preventing enslavement is *good* for business. Slaves make lousy
customers. Free "men" make *good* customers.

> I've heard that 10,000 Cr is the average annual wage for an Imperial
> citizen.  I would venture to say that it costs more than that to
> support a person on anything but lush world.  Thus slaves would be
> better off than free men.  At least they know where their next meal
> is coming from.

You have *got* to be kidding. If not, I suggest that you get yourself
arrested and see how you like prison. Prison inmates (in the US) are a
lot "freer" than any slave.

Slaves can be worked until they drop. Inmates can't. Slaves get fed
whatever is cheap and will keep them going (unless they are cheap
enough, in which case the food may only prolong their starvation).
Inmates have to get not only "decent food" but frequently have sued to
get the variety improved!

The basic idea you are missing is that slaves have *no* rights. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:59:43 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Update of my Ship of the IW page

I've taken the time to update most of the ships on my Ships of the IW page so 
that they are now (more) optimised for Bruce Macintosh's MCS. I hope to be 
adding some of my more recent designs soon.

<http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/intwars/iwships.htm>


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 98 23:59:26 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Lost Legions

On 08/09/98 at 05:02 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> However, I seem to remember that she died a year or two ago. Am I
>> wrong?

>Well, considering that I just bouight a new Solar Queen book, and it
>says nothing about her being dead...

A book wouldn't necessary say anything about that, unless the
publishing company thought they might sell extra copies if they did.
;->

OTOH, it looks like I was wrong, thank goodness.  I went looking on
the web yesterday and found an interview Ms Norton gave someone late
last year, and none of the biographies mention a date of death.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 00:07:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: A few responses to Walt Smith

On 08/09/98 at 05:09 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Gold is useful because of its malleability and ductility *and*
>because its so corrosion resistant. So you'd expect plumbing to be
>gold plated. Especially sewer pipe. :-)

Don't forget thermal conductivity, as well.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:31:01 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

In a message dated 8/9/98 10:28:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
jbogan@pipeline.com writes:

<< 
 If that situation holds for other planetary bodies,
 then it is symbolic of "ruling not planets, but
 the space between them."
 
  >>
This is such a good explanation.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:37:06 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Builder Software

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0129_01BDC485.7E209180
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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>holler :vD
>

I hear you Hollerin'

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++


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- ------=_NextPart_000_0129_01BDC485.7E209180--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #729
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 730



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wrekt Enterprises
Re: Why Iridium?
Ignore if not Ewan Quibell
Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
Re: Fighters
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
Re: Slavery
Re: Slavery, from a different view...
Re: [OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II
Re: 
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
Re: Fighters
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: courts of appeal
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: K'kree 
Re: Sensor Question
Re: Why Iridium?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:45:10 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wrekt Enterprises

	Insofar as I know, they never published there products, never answered the
letters sent them (by anybody, even when sent SASE), etc.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 23:08:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

Just for the record, iridium is rare in the _crust_ but no in
planet as a whole (it all goes down into the core when it forms).
You might argue that it is associated with space because it
occurs more on asteroids (which are relatively undifferentiated)
than on the surface.  Or may it's irridium because the metal
is worth more than gold or (I think) platinum....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:56:35 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Ignore if not Ewan Quibell

Hello, can somebody give me an adress to "Ewan Quibell
<E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>" that works, he asked for my starsystem generating
HyperCard stack but when I sent him it the mail bounced. Hopefully he can
read it here and post me a working one.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 23:48:47 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> >Gold is useful because of its malleability and ductility *and*
> >because its so corrosion resistant. So you'd expect plumbing to be
> >gold plated. Especially sewer pipe. :-)

> Don't forget thermal conductivity, as well.  

Ok you have convinced me.  How thin a layer of gold is liable to be
sturdy enough for use in plumbing fixtures?  How will Traveller
technology change this?  If your starship has (thinly) gold plated
plumbing will the gold that comes loose be recoverable so it can be
reapplied?  Maybe part of a ships annual maintenance is pulling the gold
out of the bottom of the ships waste tanks & reaaplying it to the
plumbing ducts?

Since it is so thermally conductive as well maybe starship radiators are
made of, or at least coated with, gold?  You know I think I am beginning
to understand why Traveller starships cost tens of millions of credits.

[Ducks rapidly]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:01:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

  More neat stuff for the under-equipped at www.titan-games.com

  Admittedly, I'm not sure the hardcover is a valid Traveller sourcebook,
and the last item is humour?

>GDW:
>    (MegaTraveller)
>        Player's Manual (211) [$8, VF]
>        Referee's Manual (212) [$9, NM]
>        Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$10, VF]
>        Rebellion Sourcebook (214) [$10, NM]
>        Referee's Companion (215) [$10, NM]
>    (Space:1889)
>        Space:1889 Rulebook (hardback) (1889) [$21, M]
>    (Traveller)
>        Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$13, Box G-Contents F]
>Imperium Games, Inc:
>    (T4: Mark Miller's Traveller)
>        Traveller Rulebook (softbound) (1000) [$16, VF]
>        Milieu 0: The Third Imperium (1400) [$15, NM]
>        Pocket Empires (1600) [$15, NM]
...
>    (AD&D1)
>        (Rulebooks)
>            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:20:12 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Re: Fighters

On Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:34:35 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
<Snip>
> The thing is, you are taking those 6 g while lying flat on your back.
> And any manoeuvres involve a *small* side acceleration  to get the
main
> drive pointed in the proper direction. Thias is true even for spinning
> the ship 180 to decelerate. The thrust of the main drive *always* goes
> in the same direction *relative to the pilot*.
>
Is this really the case for small, agile fighters, though? I'd always
imagined that the excess power used to generate the 'agility' score was
being used in off-axis thrusts (rather than spinning the boat in place),
whether you're vectoring the thrust axis of a T-Plate, or you've got
additional *main nozzles* for the HEPLAR drive. Do we have a feel for
just how fast you can spin a 50 dton fighter around one of it's
non-thrust axes without having to cater for the kinds of stresses that
current aerospace fighters have to handle?

If I'm dodging lasers, then I don't want to have to waste time rolling
and thrusting and rolling and GULLLLPPPPP....!
>
> This isn't at all like atmospheric fighters where you use control
> surfaces against the airstream to change directions. There. the
> accelerations from rapid turns tend to be in *bad* directions, such as
> "head to feet" instead of "front to back".
> 
> NASA and Air Force studies show that there's very little problem
> handling extended periods oif accelerastion on your back. 
> 
> So the "rules" for "g-tolerance" for aerial combat just plain *don't
> apply* in space combat. 
> 
It's very Star Warsy, but if we're talking fighters instead of gunboats,
then I imagine the paradigm should be one of *flying* the ship, rather
than *plotting* movement - you use your automation to translate the
pilot's (aerospace-like) control inputs into the necessary
pitch/roll/yaw/thrust/VIFF commands.

Andy
================================================================
smtp Email:			andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
						andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:			c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
						s=Long;i=AG;
						o=International
Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237			Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:17:08 -0400
From: "Alan R. Chambers" <alanross@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   More neat stuff for the under-equipped at www.titan-games.com
>
>   Admittedly, I'm not sure the hardcover is a valid Traveller sourcebook,
> and the last item is humour?
>
> >GDW:
> >    (MegaTraveller)
> >        Player's Manual (211) [$8, VF]
> >        Referee's Manual (212) [$9, NM]
> >        Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$10, VF]
> >        Rebellion Sourcebook (214) [$10, NM]
> >        Referee's Companion (215) [$10, NM]
> >    (Space:1889)
> >        Space:1889 Rulebook (hardback) (1889) [$21, M]
> >    (Traveller)
> >        Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$13, Box G-Contents F]
> >Imperium Games, Inc:
> >    (T4: Mark Miller's Traveller)
> >        Traveller Rulebook (softbound) (1000) [$16, VF]
> >        Milieu 0: The Third Imperium (1400) [$15, NM]
> >        Pocket Empires (1600) [$15, NM]
> ...
> >    (AD&D1)
> >        (Rulebooks)
> >            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]

The original AD&D Deities and Demi-gods had entries for the Cthulhu mythos.
Lovecrafts estate made them take it out of the next edition. It's now a
collectors item.
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 04:56:50 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free"
> either?
> (and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)

In traditional feudal systems with serfs, etc., the serfs are not
chattle property.
Its the treatment of people as personal property that is the hallmark of
slavery.
Feudal serfs weren't treated this way.  They were entitled to certain,
albeit few,
privileges from their feudal lord and vice versa.  Serf's didn't own the
land the
worked but were permitted to work the land and feed themselves from a
portion
of the benefits of the land.  Certainly feudal lords had incredible
rights over
the serfs, such as the right to take the virginity of all women in their
feifdom
in some cases.  But it is clearly distinct from slavery.  Serfs could
always leave.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:00:23 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery, from a different view...

edjs@bitslayer.net wrote:

> The Vargr being what they are, I predict mixed and varied reactions.
> :)

Well said.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:01:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Auctioneer looking for Blueboy

 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> His name is Joel Pratt. I got my Traveller Adventure OK. I'll look to
> find his
> E mail address and post it if I find it.

I got it!  Thanks much.

The trusty TML strikes again!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:05:20 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Joe Pettit wrote:

> Without local enforcement, the Imperium wouldn't hear about it.  If
> the
> local government supports slavery, the Imperium would be totally in
> the
> dark.  Of course if local government held slavery to be illegal that's
> a
> different story.  All I'm saying is that the Imperium can't enforce
> slavery
> laws without local help, thus it should be local jurisdiction.

Well, we don't really disagree.  My point that it will always be in the
jurisdictionof both the Imperium and Member worlds.  If the member world
takes care of it,
there is no reason for the Imperium to spend its valuable resources on
the problem.
However if the member world ignores it, and tolerates or allows it to
become
significant (wherever that threshold is for each regional Imperium
head), they'll
take a direct hand.

> Now, if the
> Imperium wants no slavery, they can write that into the treaty when a
> new
> world signs up.  One of the tenets would be outlawing slavery.  Of
> course
> that would make slavery High Treason as it would threaten the Imperial
>
> treaty.

Its in the Warrant of Restoration, which is the nearest thing to a
written constitutionthat the Imperium has, as it applies to all member
worlds.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:30:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II

On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >
> > This exam question reminds me of one asked in a colloquium at my
> > university in chemistry:
> >
> > If your knight stands at Al(uminum), which elements do you reach?
> 
> Nitrogen, Arsenic, Tin, Cadmium and Copper.
> 
> :-)

With or without using the Periodic Table?
In the colloq there wasn't any.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:36:13 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: 

William F. Hostman wrote:

> IMTU, all local judgments may be appealed to the local nobleman. Not
> that
> most are; moost nobles refuse to hear unless they feel a GREAT
> injustice
> has been done.

This is exactly in line with my thinking on the Imperial appellate
judicial administration.
Here's the outline I have.

Imperial District Court - Administered by the MoJ
(One in each starport, starport type and system population determines
size of this office - it may be 1000 judges with huge support staffs, or
a MoJ starport master who is also the Postmaster, Customs Officer, and
cook).
|
Appeals to the Subsector Court of Imperial Appeals - Adminstered by the
MoJ
(The losing party may appeal once.  This Court will sit at the Subsector
capital).
|
Subsector Duke
(Certiorari authority, i.e., further appeals may only be had at his
permission.
So, he can either pass a case along for further proceedings (but he
doesn't rule
on these), or he can reverse or remand the case for proceedings.  He
also has the
authority to alter damage awards, etc.)
|
Sector Supreme Imperial Court
(Must hear cases assigned to hit by a Subsector Duke.  Sits at the
Sector Capital.)
|
Sector Archduke
(Same authority as the Subsector Duke, but he may either send a case to
the final court,
or recommend the Emperor deal with it, directly).
|
The Court of the Imperium
(The highest of MoJ courts.  All judges are of Noble rank.  This court
has authority
to deal with disputes between Nobles, among other things, and can
recommend
to the Emperor that Nobles be stripped of all heriditary rights.)
|
The Emperor
(The last word on the law.  The Emperor may "reach down" and take
authority over
any matter desired, at any level.   The Emperor's power is complete and
final.
The Emperor surely excerises his power most by refusing to hear
appeals.)

Thats my first draft anyway.
If the Imperium is as litigious as the Western world,
85-90% of cases will settle before a District Court can rule.
99% of the cases heard in District Court will not be appealed.
99% of the cases appealled once will not be appealled twice.
Etc., etc.
So, we end up with a very, very low percentage of cases going up the
chain.
However, given the sheer size of the Imperium, its important to know the

potential limit.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:48:09 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > 'intention' is the necessary mental state that is an element of the
> > crime.  it must be proved or no crime has been committed.
>
> You should clarify this by noting that intent to commit the action in
> question is required. That is, if you *intended* to turn on the ships
> Heplar drive, you are going to be in trouble even if you didn't intend
>
> the *consequences* (vaporizing the crewman who was inspecting the
> drive).

Quite correct."General Intent" crimes/liabilities arise when you
intended to turn on the Heplar
drive, but didn't intend to start a fire in the downport.
"Specific Intent" crimes/liabilities are when you intended to kill
Strephon.  Even if you
miss and kill someone else, your intent transfers.

> > 'ignorance' - well, i have yet to encounter a legal system where
> > ignorance of the law has excused anyone's conduct, but its a big
> > universe.  ignorance that a violation took place is different though.
> > proof of it may negate responsibility for some classes of crimes,
> > especially those that involve cooperative acts of multiple defendants,
> > such as conspiracy crimes.
>
> Well, given the increasing complexity of the laws, I wouldn't be
> surprised to see a system where ignorance of some obscxure clause of
> the law *would* be an acceptable excuse, if your conduct was otherwise
> "sensible".

Hehe.  In Massachusetts, and probably other states, lawyers may not be
sued for malpractice from errors made in dealing with the Rule Against
Perpetuities.  Its the only subject matter that is treated this way.
Its actually a very easy rule to deal with, at least in my limited experience with it,
but no one is capable of expressing it eloquently in modern English.

> In this, I'm going for an extension of the "reasonable man" standard
> in
> that a "reasonable man" could not be expected to know about the law in
> question.

Fair enough.  This kind of idea has often been applied with regard
to"boilerplate" fine-print in complicated contracts for unsophisticated
parties, i.e., non-business people, but has yet to used concerning
awareness of the laws of the state.  However, you can find interesting
dicta, i.e., language in a judicial opinion not necessary or part or the
decision, that says criminals must have "Fair warning" that their conduct
could constitute a crime.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 05:52:11 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >    (AD&D1)
> >        (Rulebooks)
> >            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]

   $75???  I'm cleaning out the attic!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:36:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Fighters

On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Ummm, I wouldnt want my pilots to be pulling 6 gees for more than 10
> > seconds or so. Definitly not maneuvering at 6 gees over the compensators
> > for tens of minutes on end, which you tend to have to do to try and avoid
> > laser fire.
> 
> The thing is, you are taking those 6 g while lying flat on your back.
> And any manuevers involve a *small* side acceleration  to get the main
> drive pointed in the proper direction. Thias is true even for spinning
> the ship 180 to decelerate. The thrust of the main drive *always* goes
> in the same direction *relative to the pilot*.
> 
> This isn't at all like atmospheric fighters where you use control
> surfaces against the airstream to change directions. There. the
> accelerations from rapid turns tend to be in *bad* directions, such as
> "head to feet" instead of "front to back".
> 
> NASA and Air Force studies show that there's very little problem
> handling extended periods oif accelerastion on your back. 
> 
> So the "rules" for "g-tolerance" for aerial combat just plain *don't
> apply* in space combat. 
> 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


How about writing up some guideline rules for handling accelerations?

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:03:54
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>	I don't think squaring the distance is a crazy idea since it's not
>just the cost of transport that matters, it's also the time it takes to
>get goods to market.  If you accept Ian's argument (which I do) that
>economies of scale & specialization are going to play a big role in
>interstellar trade, then you have to imagine that a great deal of trade 
>is in intermediate goods -- goods that are inputs into other products.  
>Since coordinating a supply chain in terms of inventory, design specs, 
>defects, etc. is a communication intensive business, message lag times 
>will be important.  Even in today's world of instant global 
>communication, many manufacturers like to have their suppliers as close 
>as possible.
>

The cost of owning the goods between source and market is a function of the
time taken and the cost of the goods, while the transport cost is a
function of the distance travelled and the volume of the goods (perhaps
with the mass of the cargo being a more minor factor). Cost of goods isnt
important for transport cost, except for insurance purposes.

>	Also, the profitability of trade between two worlds is probably 
>the thing most in need of fixing in the Traveller trade system.  As Ian 
>has pointed out, economies of scale play a big role in RW trade.  
>Increasing TLs are only likely to increase the benefits from 
>specialization and make trade in intermediate goods more attractive.  We 
>don't necessarily need to model this directly, but we do need a reason 
>for the longer range trade that canon history says takes place.  Under 
>current Trav trade rules, there's rarely reason to leave the subsector.  
>Where's the adventure in that?  
>
>- -JM

My personal solution is for the GM to look at the map and plot something.
This only raises the issue of where the players get a jump-3 ship, but hey
... speaking of which, has anyone tried to convert a TL12 cruiser into a
trading ship ... it's obsolete, so buy it at surplus after it's struck off.
It's shakedown cruise could be a pass through the frontier, selling off
surplus bays, accumulators and dampers as it goes ...

Seriously, look at FFS or something similar with lots of hi-tech hi-value
goods. Any planet that has just stopped having a local war is a good one -
they want to buy goods to rebuild the civilian economies, and have all this
only-one-owner Army Surplus going cheap. Military goods can easily cost a
megacredit per displacement ton, so they are worth shipping a long way.

This is actually the key to making long-distance trade viable. If goods
cost a megacredit per dton, then you can ship them a hundred parsecs to get
a 10% rise in price. Long haul trade is only unviable when you assume that
goods will cost KCr 5-10 per dton, which is completely unreasonable with
the prices listed in the rest of the Traveller material.

Whilst not wanting to restart the piracy debate, very valuable cargos also
makes piracy by ethically challenged civilians less of a losing proposition
- - when cargos are worth hundreds of megacredits, it is worth it to risk a
ship.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:19:49 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> > Without local enforcement, the Imperium wouldn't hear about it.  If the
> > local government supports slavery, the Imperium would be totally in the
> > dark.  Of course if local government held slavery to be illegal that's a
> > different story.  All I'm saying is that the Imperium can't enforce slavery
> > laws without local help, thus it should be local jurisdiction.  Now, if the
> > Imperium wants no slavery, they can write that into the treaty when a new
> > world signs up.  One of the tenets would be outlawing slavery.  Of course
> > that would make slavery High Treason as it would threaten the Imperial
> > treaty.
>
> I guess you weren't paying attention. The wehole point has been that
> the Imperium *does* require that member worlds enforce certain laws,
> and the ban on slavery is part of this.

There is a subtle difference between Slavery being illegal in the Imperium and
the Imperium requiring local laws against Slavery in order to sign the treaty.
I'm all for local slavery laws.  But I can't see an interstellar government being
able to adjudicate every case.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:59:15 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: courts of appeal

Bloo wrote:
>This is exactly in line with my thinking on the Imperial appellate
>Here's the outline I have.

>Sector Archduke
>(Same authority as the Subsector Duke, but he may either send a case to
>the final court,
>or recommend the Emperor deal with it, directly).

Seems to me this should be either the Sector Duke, or the Domain 
Archduke, but not the Sector Archduke....  Perhaps the Sector Duke sends 
appeals to the Emperor, but the Archduke makes the decision (speaking 
for the Emperor, unless the archduke decides the case should go to the 
emperor or involves some nobility who have the direct appeal to the 
emperor.)

>The Court of the Imperium
>(The highest of MoJ courts.  All judges are of Noble rank.  This 
>Thats my first draft anyway.

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:12:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

Don McKinney wrote:
> 
> Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
> What's Iridium?
> 
> I mean, I know it's atomic #77,

And _what_ year did traveller come out?...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:09:17 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: K'kree 

> >Also, if the K'kree hate carnivores so much, why haven't they
> >attacked the Imperium?  Sheer distance?
>Numerous reasons.   Distance.  Problems of interstellar govt, and others.
>They haven't been expansionist since the Hiver-K'kree war. 

Also, the K'Kree aren't stupid. They're technologically inferior to the
Imperium, have no recent experience of major interstellar war, and suffer
from severe handicaps in starship design. In a war against the Imperium 
(unless the Imperium was otherwise distracted) they'd get handed their
tails.  

Note that once the Imperium was distracted (by the Rebellion) they 
did start making trouble...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:15:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Sensor Question

>From reading the past discussions on the list and from the material in A Long
>Way Home I get the picture that ships are only dectectable from a distance of
>10 AU's and that planets can be dectected up to 2 parasecs away? Is this
>right..I hope I'm not beating a dead horse :) TIA


Ship detection ranges can be calculated from the sensors in FFS2 or from
my sensor rules (available at various places on the net, or email me privately
and I can send them to you.) The range at which ships can see each other 
(unsurprisingly) varies a lot; dinky civilian sensors might be able to see
another Free Trader out to a tenth of an AU, big military sensors could 
see a huge dreadnaught out to 30 or 100 AU if it wasn't masked. 

Seeing planets is more complicated. Good science sensors can probably detect
gas-giant planets out to 30 parsecs or more and earthlike planets to several
parsecs (maybe even 10 for a big PEMS-14.5sci array.) I posted some rules on
this (and on looking for free-floating objects), but I'm not 100% happy 
with the detection-of-planetary-companion rules yet.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:06:58 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

Gosh! I think I see the fine hand of the Templar Conspiracy at work again! 

... or, maybe, I've just been reading Alt.Conspiracy too much, again!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?


>Don McKinney wrote:
>> 
>> Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>> What's Iridium?
>> 
>> I mean, I know it's atomic #77,
>
>And _what_ year did traveller come out?...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #730
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 731



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Slavery
Slave's Rights (was re: Imperial Justice...
(OT) Help w/ MPGN
Re: Slave's Rights (was re: Imperial Justice...
Re: Slavery
Re: Traveller World Builder Software
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #728
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #729
Slavery in the Imperium
Warrant of Restoration
K'Kree was Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Slavery
Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:31:32 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slavery

One series of books I have read offers a pretty good look at a society that
practices slavery is the Draka series by  S.M. Stirling. (Marching thru
Georgia, Under the Yoke, and the Stone Dogs).  It is a alternate-history story
where the Tories and the Confederates, after losing thier wars, emigrated to
what is today South Africa, and built a slave-operated empire.  An extremely
good series, with some interesting morality questions as well.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:35:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Slave's Rights (was re: Imperial Justice...

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The basic idea you are missing is that slaves have *no* rights. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not that I'm supporting slavery, but there have been several examples
in Earth history of slaves having rights. Not as many as free people,
nowhere near as many as citizens, but rights nonetheless.

Greece and Rome come to mind. Though in the Roman case, if I
remember clearly, they weren't as much rights as fines to the
slaveowner if he killed or otherwise abused slaves.

And it's kind of funny to see someone listing legal dodges to beat
a slavery rap. There are canon examples of the Imperium simply
making people they didn't like disappear (Adventure 1, Kinunir).
They won't use the same techniques on the head of something as
odious as a slaver ring?

If the MoJ knows about it, and can find you, you are done. And if
slavery is bad enough to the Imperial conscience, only an insane
lawyer would try to defend you.

(Historical example, Terra, post Oliver Cromwell's revolution in
England: in the backlash against the roundheads, Judges were
willing to apply the most horrendous punishments not only
against suspected revolutionaries, but also against anyone who
attempted to defend them. Punishments like, "drag him naked
behind a galloping horse through every village in the county once
a week, leaving him chained in a dungeon otherwise, until he dies".)

Imperial Law, in the Imperium, exists as a diplomatic convenience,
a matter of treaty and commerce. When faced with something
offensive, like slavery, the MoJ can find ways to walk around
any inconvenient parts of it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:46:26 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: (OT) Help w/ MPGN

Sorry for the off-topic post...

   The link I have for the MPGN-Net list (where I discovered this wonderful
list) has apparently been changed...I can't access the list of the different
games that have mailing lists anymore.  Can anyone tell me the new link (if
any), or is it just no longer in existance?  I seem to recall being able to
download past digests from there as well.

Thanks in advance, 

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:08:49 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Slave's Rights (was re: Imperial Justice...

Walter Smith wrote:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The basic idea you are missing is that slaves have *no* rights.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not that I'm supporting slavery, but there have been several examples
> in Earth history of slaves having rights. Not as many as free people,
> nowhere near as many as citizens, but rights nonetheless.
>
> Greece and Rome come to mind. Though in the Roman case, if I
> remember clearly, they weren't as much rights as fines to the
> slaveowner if he killed or otherwise abused slaves.
>
> And it's kind of funny to see someone listing legal dodges to beat
> a slavery rap. There are canon examples of the Imperium simply
> making people they didn't like disappear (Adventure 1, Kinunir).
> They won't use the same techniques on the head of something as
> odious as a slaver ring?

And how exactly would that make the Imperium morally and ethically better
than the slavers themselves? Obviously they aren't.  Which basically
makes Imperial law the whim of the Emperor.  Then you get funny things
like rebellions... Well, look at that.  A Canon example of why Imperial
law doesn't work...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:29:02 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery

The latest book in the series, "Draken" I think, early on discribes the
Drakia after they conquer the world (the "almost" democratic survivors
having left for the stars. In the early part of the book it discribes the
"slaves" as having been geneticly altered to serve. They (the enslaved
humans) act as the scientists working, working class, etc. while the
"superior" Draka act in the roles of administrators, overseers,
executives,etc.

While the concepts proported by the books are chilling they are a well
thought out thesis on how a bio-technologically superior 'race' could, over
a period of generations, create a serving class that couldn't revolt. Even
to the point where the "slaves" would fight against an outsider to maintain
the status quo. The early Draka used enducements to get the "slaves" to act
as Janessaries (sic?). Later, after sufficient biological conditioning, they
would just fight from 'instinct'.  I can picture something like this
cropping up in Traveller... possibly as a Solomani plot used against
non-human races within the Confederation.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com <DustyLV769@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Slavery


>One series of books I have read offers a pretty good look at a society that
>practices slavery is the Draka series by  S.M. Stirling. (Marching thru
>Georgia, Under the Yoke, and the Stone Dogs).  It is a alternate-history
story
>where the Tories and the Confederates, after losing thier wars, emigrated
to
>what is today South Africa, and built a slave-operated empire.  An
extremely
>good series, with some interesting morality questions as well.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:17:23 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Builder Software

>Does anyone know of any Windows/DOS programs that will construct a Traveller
>World based on the rules in the MT World Builder's Handbook?


I have been in the process of developing one for, well - a long time now.
(sigh)  It's still up on my list of 'THINGS I MUST DO', but obviously, not
on my list of things I have done.  Real Life is such a distraction!  ;)

I'll stop adding features and just try and get the durn thing coded and out.
It is intended to be a 32-bit VB app, which means a Win9x or WinNT platform
to run it on.

>
>A program is advertised in the book, but as the book was released in 1990,
>does anyone know if this program is still available?
>


The software advertised was never release - I tried to order it!  :(

The company that contracted for the development backed out, I never heard
why - just got my check back (ahem...*uncashed*) with a short note.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:01:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
> 
> >From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
> >
> >	I don't think squaring the distance is a crazy idea since it's not
> >just the cost of transport that matters, it's also the time it takes to
> >get goods to market.  If you accept Ian's argument (which I do) that
> >economies of scale & specialization are going to play a big role in
> >interstellar trade, then you have to imagine that a great deal of trade 
> >is in intermediate goods -- goods that are inputs into other products.  
> >Since coordinating a supply chain in terms of inventory, design specs, 
> >defects, etc. is a communication intensive business, message lag times 
> >will be important.  Even in today's world of instant global 
> >communication, many manufacturers like to have their suppliers as close 
> >as possible.
> >
> 
> The cost of owning the goods between source and market is a function of the
> time taken and the cost of the goods, while the transport cost is a
> function of the distance travelled and the volume of the goods (perhaps
> with the mass of the cargo being a more minor factor). Cost of goods isnt
> important for transport cost, except for insurance purposes.

	I'm not arguing with you about the cost of interstellar trade, 
I'm making a point about the *demand* for interstellar trade.  Since 
relying on a source of supply that takes weeks or months to communicate 
with is in and of itself costly (necessitates large inventories, 
increases problems with coordination, means defects are likely to go 
uncaught before a lot of bad products have already been made, etc.) 
people are likely to avoid such situations where possible.  This means 
products that require cospecialization and frequent communication are not 
good candidates for long distance trade.
	I was basically trying to point out that having at least some 
kinds of trade drop off with the inverse square of distance isn't a crazy 
idea.
  
> My personal solution is for the GM to look at the map and plot something.
> This only raises the issue of where the players get a jump-3 ship,

	IMHO, there needs to be a "canonical" J-3 trading vessel of modest
size for player use.   Maybe the "Farther-class" trader ;-)  
 
> This is actually the key to making long-distance trade viable. If goods
> cost a megacredit per dton, then you can ship them a hundred parsecs to get
> a 10% rise in price. Long haul trade is only unviable when you assume that
> goods will cost KCr 5-10 per dton, which is completely unreasonable with
> the prices listed in the rest of the Traveller material.
> 
> Whilst not wanting to restart the piracy debate, very valuable cargos also
> makes piracy by ethically challenged civilians less of a losing proposition
> - - when cargos are worth hundreds of megacredits, it is worth it to risk a
> ship.

	A very good point.  Higher value cargos would solve a lot of 
inconsistencies between Traveller background and rules.  
	The Al Morai trading company in the Spinward Marches maintained
routes for centuries that connected all the subsector capitals of the
Marches.  Now unless this was merely a private x-boat service, there must
have been something worth transporting so far.  Since piracy is also a
part of the background, and one that many people like, being able to
create an incentive for that activity with high value cargos is also nice. 
	High value cargo gives the incentive and long-distance trade may 
give the means since it gives more ships a reason to pass through poorly 
defended backwater systems on their way to a more profitable destination. 

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:11:17 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #728

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:27:11 -0400, shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:

>> What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free" either?
>> (and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)

>By modern definitions it *is* slavery*. After all, you are legally
>*forbidden* to leave your land and take up some other sort of work.

This is true - but is it _chattel_ slavery?  The Warrant of
Restoration explicitly prohibits _chattel_ slavery, but says
nothing of serfdom, peonage, debt slavery, or any others of
probably a million different kinds of involuntary servitude.

Slavery as practiced in the United States prior to the 1860s is
absolutely verboten - that's inarguably chattel slavery.  But
slavery on the Roman model (debt enslavement) or medieval model
(manorial serfdom) isn't chattel slavery, and is arguably
allowable in the Third Imperium.  It's very definitely a gray
area, and I intended it so when I wrote that paragraph.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:35:07 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #729

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:42:51 -0400, shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:

>> OTOH, they have the very nasty _disadvantage_ of generating
>> quantities of a colorless, odorless gas that bonds _very_ well
>> with hemoglobin - and never lets go.  Death by carbon monoxide
>> poisoning is _not_ a recommended recreational activity.

>Huh? Do you have documentation for this? Carbon monoxide production by
>*oxyhdrogen* jets playing on limestone, that is.

>Among other details, there's damn little carbon *present* once they've
>reached operating temp *once*. After that, the "lime" part is calcium
>oxide. And since you are using hydrogen and oxygen in the flame, you
>*can't* produce carbon monoxide!  You *do produce a lot of water vaopr
>though. And it's not that hard to set things up to *start* with an
>oxide, rather than a carbonate. 

It's entirely possible I'm mistaken, but I thought that limestone
had a fairly high amount of carbon compounds in it, so that no
matter _what_ you used as the gas, there was CO production at a
level that the U.S. Government would find unacceptable for use in
enclosed spaces.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:07:29 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Slavery in the Imperium

Hhmmm....Has anyone else had the "Lost minor race: the Draka" idea?  


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:19:30 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Warrant of Restoration

I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about recently regarding
Slavery.  Where exactly is this Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
to it until it showed up here.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:26:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: K'Kree was Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

 "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

>    How DO they govern?  Do they care about their subject worlds at all,
>just
>    as long as they're vegan?  Do they have some Interstellar Society of
>    Vegetarians organized throughout Charted Space?  Have they sent
>    Green Missionaries  to every major spaceport?  How do they use
>    science: as a necessary plague like the Vilani?   Or do they only
>    care about social change, but are blase regarding tech?

Last Euro Gen Con the fun Traveller scenario had the players seting up a
'McBurger' franchise on the local 2000 worlds subsector capital. They
didn't know what this chain was before the <magically> expanding box full
of material expanded with those two gold arches.

Then they started running...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:28:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>>> 'ignorance' - well, i have yet to encounter a legal system where
>>> ignorance of the law has excused anyone's conduct, but its a big
>>> universe.  ignorance that a violation took place is different
>>> though.
>>> proof of it may negate responsibility for some classes of crimes,
>>> especially those that involve cooperative acts of multiple
>>> defendants, such as conspiracy crimes.

>> Well, given the increasing complexity of the laws, I wouldn't be
>> surprised to see a system where ignorance of some obscxure clause of
>> the law *would* be an acceptable excuse, if your conduct was otherwise
>>
>> "sensible".
>
> Hehe.  In Massachusetts, and probably other states, lawyers may not
> be sued for malpractice from errors made in dealing with the Rule
> Against Perpetuities.  Its the only subject matter that is treated
> this way.  Its actually a very easy rule to deal with, at least in my
> limited experience with it, but no one is capable of expressing it
> eloquently in modern English.

Check out "Backus-Naur" notation. It's used for defining "syntax" when
designing programming languages. I've found that any well-written law
becomes *much* shorter and clearer when translated into it, and even
poorly written ones become clear (or at least the ambiguities jump out
at you). 

It also encourages you to take sub-sections that are frequently
repeated (eg the section in the Child Pornography law that describe
*what* sort of "activity" in a [film/photo/video/etc/etc] is "child
pornography") and either give them a name, or make them an
"independent" sub section so as to avoid the endless repetition. 

(I picked the kiddie porn law because as a BBS sysop I've studied it
 *very* carefully!)

Anyway, I can *hope* that by the time the Imperium arrives, we'll have
had the legislators, lawyers, and syntax design people get together and
come up with a *rational* way to describe laws.

>> In this, I'm going for an extension of the "reasonable man" standard
>> in that a "reasonable man" could not be expected to know about the
>> law in question.

> Fair enough.  This kind of idea has often been applied with regard
> to"boilerplate" fine-print in complicated contracts for
> unsophisticated parties, i.e., non-business people, but has yet to
> used concerning awareness of the laws of the state.  However, you can
> find interesting dicta, i.e., language in a judicial opinion not
> necessary or part or the decision, that says criminals must have
> "Fair warning" that their conduct could constitute a crime.

Well, I'm reminded of the time that the company I was working for
needed to expand their parking lot. They got the permit, and had
actually started construction before some drone at City Hall noticed
that we were in an area that the City had designated as some sort of
"Greenway" or the like, and thus we had to add a lot of landscaping to
the plans (which delayed things almost a year, because by the time the
plans were re-drawn, the "rainy season had started and construction was
impractical.).

I'm sure this regulation was published *somewhere*. But I'm equally
sure that it was buried amid a lot of unrelated stuff.

By my lights, a local regulation that affects only a limited area
should be accompanied by a mailing to the owners of properties in said
areas notifying them of the new rules...

I wouldn't count failure to get the notification as a complete defense,
not unless it could be shown that the city/county hadn't made a
"reasonable" effort to notify the affected people. 

The day when being published in the federal register constituted
adequate notice for the average person or small business owner is
*long* past. 

Hopefully, as computers and the Internet continue to spread, there wil
evolve some sort of expert system that you can tell what you want to do
(or not do) and it can tell you: yes, no, or "talk to a lawyer". 

But first we have to dethrone outfits like Westlaw who are turning
public domain info (the laws passed by Congress) into *proprietary*
info. 

Forgive the ranting, but this has long been an issue with me.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:48:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>> I guess you weren't paying attention. The wehole point has been that
>> the Imperium *does* require that member worlds enforce certain laws,
>> and the ban on slavery is part of this.
>
> There is a subtle difference between Slavery being illegal in the
> Imperium and the Imperium requiring local laws against Slavery in
> order to sign the treaty.

> I'm all for local slavery laws.  But I can't see an interstellar
> government being able to adjudicate every case.

On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
complaints sent to the IMOJ. 

If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
they were "just doing my job").

So if a planet is truly enforcing the laws as intended, no problem,
just a lot of boredom for the IMOJ clerk in charge of monitoring them.
If it isn't, then things get interesting. 

Remember, you *can't* charge the Imperium with "malicious prosecution".
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:55:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slavery

In mail you write:

> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> What about Manorial Serfdom? It isn't Slavery, but it isn't "free"
>> either?
>> (and I know the rise of towns and the middle class killed it)
>
> In traditional feudal systems with serfs, etc., the serfs are not
> chattle property.  Its the treatment of people as personal property
> that is the hallmark of slavery.  Feudal serfs weren't treated this
> way.  They were entitled to certain, albeit few, privileges from
> their feudal lord and vice versa.  Serf's didn't own the land the
> worked but were permitted to work the land and feed themselves from a
> portion of the benefits of the land.  Certainly feudal lords had
> incredible rights over the serfs, such as the right to take the
> virginity of all women in their feifdom in some cases.  But it is
> clearly distinct from slavery.  Serfs could always leave.

There were times and places where it was illegal for the serf to leave
his land. But they were the exception.

Heck, for that matter, the ideal of fuedalism is a lot different than
what most people think of.

In a way, feudal relationships were the beginning of contract law. A
vassal didn't just swear oaths to his lord. They swore oaths to *each
other*. Failure by *either* party to carry out his duties voided the
oaths.

Heck, this has the potential to be a lot better than the current setup
for a lot of things. For example, you and your boos would have
interlocking oaths, either that or you'd have oaths with someone higher
up and the boss would be their representative. So if you felt the boss
was mistreating you, you'd actually have grounds to challenge his
behavior as being in violation of the "contract". 

The problems come when the oaths become pro forma, rather than actually
reflecting the needs and desires (and *duties*!) of each side.

Oh yeah, another interesting point is whether or not feudal
relationships are transitive. That is, you've sworn to your ship's
captain, and he's sworn to Lord so-and-so. If the feudal relationships
are transitive (fairly rare in history except during eras where the
royalty were attempting to centralize power and *destroy* the fuedal
system) then Lord so-and-so can give you orders, because as a vassal of
his vassal, you are his vassal as well. If the feudal relationships are
*not* transitive, then Lord so-and-so has to give orders to your
captain, who then decides which of his people would be best to carry
them out. The the *captain* issues appropriate orders.

This is a much more *personal* system than modern society is used to.
But it may actually be *more* workable (and "livable") *because* of this.

It'd be fun running players up against a planet that did fuedalism
*right*. :-)

You aren't as apt to get the "petty bureacrat" mentality, because
acting that way makes your "lord" look bad. And that's a *big* no-no. 
Honor provides a lot of checks and balances in such a system.
Especially since people *won't* swear to a person who has been shown to
be dishonorable (ie has failed to carry out *his* side of the
"contract"). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:14:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood

In mail you write:

> First, thanks for the many responses on the
> K'kree!  So the Centaur's hatred of carnivores
> outweigh their hatred of change - an interesting
> insight into their psychology.

Well, it helps to remember that the K'kree evolved alongside a
carnivore species that was almost as intelligent. Details aren't
available as the K'kree attained civilization and technology as part of
the struggle to exterminate the carnivore species.

> ********
>
> Now, my take on slavery... Slavery is rather inefficent compared to a
> willing, paid workforce.  Also, industrialization and the division of
> labour tend's to finish off slavery as a workable concept. Add in the
> fact that the Imperium prohibit's slavery, and it would seem that
> there would be no slavery at all, especially if you are using "Middle
> Atlantic" aka American Slavery as the model.

On the other hand, Nazi Germany (and to some extent the USSR) made
slave labor *work* in certain industries.

> Moreover, some form of indentured servanthood seem's likely, as a way
> of paying off loans, colonist transport cost's, etc.

> Still, indentured servanthood is is quite different than slavery.
> For one, it is not tansferred from parent's to children.  Also,
> servant's are still people, rather than slaves, which are legally so
> much furniture, to be used, raped and killed when conveinent or
> entertaining. And not just the slaves, but their children and THEIR
> children as well, till the end of time.

I'll bet that there are some fairly severe restrictions on the *terms*
of an indenture contract though. Limits on work hours, limits on type
of work (mostly according to local mores, in "Kansas" even "exotic
dancing" as a duty might be forbidden", while in "Nevada" sexual
activities could be legal "duties").

There'd also be limits on the term. And on what sort of things could
result in an increase in the term. Basicly, an average or even somewhat
*below* average person should be able to earn themself free in a
reasonable period. On another other tentacle, someone who refuses to
put any effort into his work, and keeps "accidentally" breaking things
(as a means of "getting back" at the boss) could be indentured for a
*long* time. 

Another item is likely to be a basic part of the contract. Namely, is
the contract transferable. And if so, to what extent. For example, it'd
be unusual for a contract to be transferable to an owner on another
world without the agreement of the indenturee. 

> Serfdom, however, may indeed exist in the Imperium in some form.
> For now, let's define serfdom as a form of communism: the slave may
> never *own* any land (or factories, or starships...), but - as long as
> he provides labour to his lord - he has the right to use some of his
> lord's property for the serf's personal use, (including increasing
> personal wealth, to buy his freedom say) has the right to be treated as a
> man rather than as some sex toy or beast of labour, can
> marry and have children, etc.  His children, however, are also born as
> serf's, and also must serve their lord.

See my post about the way the feudal system was *supposed* to work.
Under that sort of system, it's pretty workable. 

> Enforcing serfdom - that is, keeping it from becoming slavery -
> is going to be a nightmare without increasing the power of the
> Imperium to massive, and probably unsustainable levels.

The key is making sure that the "lord" has duties to the serf, and that
failure to carry them out releases the serf. So if the crops are bad
due to a drought or some other thing beyond the serf's control, the
lord has to supply food from *his* reserves. If he doesn't, the serfs
can legitimately consider their "contract" null and void and leave for
a lord who could use more serfs (and there will usually be such
*somewhere*). 

> To the extent that the nobility in the West didn't treat the serf's as
> animals is due to a powerful, universal Christian Church.  There is
> no analogue to this institution in the offical Imperium.  (Although
> family ties & the honour code may make a fair substitute)

Honour was the big reason in most places *before* the Church got really
strong. If the lord didn't carry out his obligations to the serfs,
they'd quit carrying out their obligations to *him* and fade into the
forests. This tended to be *really* bad for the lord in question. 

> using the unpaid labour of the wife.  Moreover, the very institution of the
> Imperium endorses some form of servanthood: what are nobles, but servant's
> of the Emperor?   And aren't the Imperial military just armed retainers of
> the Irridium Throne?

There's a difference between a "servant" and a "vassal". The only duty
you have towards a servant is to pay them, and possibly to feed and
clothe them. And you can terminate the relationship whenever you feel
like it.

A vassal is bound to you by a web of oaths, duties and obligations. One
that goes *both* ways. The oaths spell out each parties obligations to
the other (like a contract). And the relationship is only terminated by:

Death of one party
Mutual consent
Violation of the terms

That last one is important. It means that if you fail to carry out your
obligations to a vassal he is free to consider himself no longer a
vassal. If he fails to carry out his obligations, you can dump him too.

Honor gets into it too. Failure to carry out the obligation means that
one has lost honor unless one has tried their best and still failed. So
if a vassal owes you a company of troops for up to X months a year, and
due to a plague or some such, he can't supply them all, it'd be
considered abuse of *your* power to terminate the relationship if he
did his best to scrape up troops for you.

If he just made a half-hearted effort then you can tell him he's no
longer your man. 

Likewise, if (as is likely) part of your oaths to him are to aid and
protect him, then you'd better have sent medical help for that plague.
Ditto for sending a reasonable amount of help if his territory is
attacked.

But as you can see, this is *far* different from a servant/master
relationship.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #731
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 732



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: reconniasnce cruisers (Sphkreuzer)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
re: Servanthood (OK, a little off-topic)
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II
OOps
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Feudal Technocracy
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
re: Fighters
re- sorry about the letters...
Re: Slavery and Serfdom
Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list
re: Slavery and Serfdom

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:46:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: reconniasnce cruisers (Sphkreuzer)

In mail you write:

> the germans worked on some thing to be called a Sp=E4hkreuzer (reconnaissance
                                                    ^^^ this comes
across as "=""E""4" (without the quotes). If I had "quoted printable"
decoding available it'd display as  (a capital Greek Sigma).

> ships were planed to get a mixed propulsion system, geared turbines for high
> speed and diesel engines for long cruises.=A0 It was planed to use this
                                            ^^^ comes across as "=""A""0"
which would be  (lower case "a" with an acute accent)

You need to be careful to avoid non-ASCII characters, because not
everyone can handle the way they get "coded" in transit, and even for
those who *can* you run into the problem of different character sets. 

For example for those on PCs but not using Windows, the ISO Latin-1
character set is just plain not available.

Here's a quick list of what those characters are in various character
sets I'v got docs for:

=A0
a acute		IBM code page 437, 850, 852, 861, 862
Cyrillic a	IBM code page 866
no break space	ISO 8859-1 Latin 1, 8859-2 Latin 2, 8859-3 Latin 3,
		8859-4 Latin 4, 8859-5 Cyrillic, 8859-7 Greek,
		8859-8 Hebrew, 8859-9 Latin 5, 8859-10 Latin 6,
		MS Windows Latin-1
A diaresis	Apple Quickdraw
copyright	NeXT
Undefined	DEC Multinational, DEC Technical, Data General Multinational, 
		HP Roman-8, KOI-8 (GOST 19768-74), 


=E4
Greek Sigma	IBM Code Page 437, 861, 862
o tilde		IBM code page 850
n acute		IBM code page 852
Cyrillic ef	IBM code page 866, ISO 8859-5 Cyrillic
a diaresis	ISO 8859-1 Latin 1, 8859-2 Latin 2, 8859-3 Latin 3,
		8859-4 Latin 4, 8859-9 Latin 5, 8859-10 Latin 6,
		DEC Multinational, MS Windows Latin-1
delta		ISO 8859-7 Greek, DEC Technical
he		ISO 8859-8 Hebrew
per mil		Apple Quickdraw
a tilde		Data General Multinational
Icelandic eth	HP Roman-8
Cyrillic De	KOI-8 (GOST 19768-74)
i circumflex	NeXT

(Don't get *too* worried by the above, I can crank out the tables in
very little time, so just did it. They are presented as information,
not an attempt to browbeat :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:48:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> I guess you weren't paying attention. The wehole point has been that
> >> the Imperium *does* require that member worlds enforce certain laws,
> >> and the ban on slavery is part of this.
> >
> > There is a subtle difference between Slavery being illegal in the
> > Imperium and the Imperium requiring local laws against Slavery in
> > order to sign the treaty.
>
> > I'm all for local slavery laws.  But I can't see an interstellar
> > government being able to adjudicate every case.
>
> On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
> In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
> day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
> that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
> complaints sent to the IMOJ.
>
> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
> they were "just doing my job").
>

There's FAR more local law enforcers than IMOJ clerks on any specific
planet.  If the local government wants slavery, that clerk becomes a
mushroom.

> So if a planet is truly enforcing the laws as intended, no problem,
> just a lot of boredom for the IMOJ clerk in charge of monitoring them.
> If it isn't, then things get interesting.
>
> Remember, you *can't* charge the Imperium with "malicious prosecution".
> :-)

Sure you can.  Its called voluntary Red Zoning. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:32:50 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Servanthood (OK, a little off-topic)

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll bet that there are some fairly severe restrictions on the *terms*
of an indenture contract though. Limits on work hours, limits on type
of work (mostly according to local mores, in "Kansas" even "exotic
dancing" as a duty might be forbidden", while in "Nevada" sexual
activities could be legal "duties").

There'd also be limits on the term. And on what sort of things could
result in an increase in the term. Basicly, an average or even somewhat
*below* average person should be able to earn themself free in a
reasonable period. On another other tentacle, someone who refuses to
put any effort into his work, and keeps "accidentally" breaking things
(as a means of "getting back" at the boss) could be indentured for a
*long* time. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
According to some information I've seen, "Indentured Servants" were often
worse off than slaves - at least in 17th and 18th century UK/America.
The signing of the contract in the first place was often nonexistant - unless
you count getting conked on the head by a labor gang signing a contract.
You woke up on a transport at sea, were dropped off at a labor market
in the Carolinas or Carribean, and were worked to death usually in
the first year. Not hard to do, especially since you were probably about
twelve years old. If there was a contract, you never saw it or signed it...
a family member might have, or a magistrate might have given a labor
broker leave to clean up some "surplus population". If there was a 
contract, it was worded so you'd never get out of it - your room and
board, whether you got any or not, would cost more than you were
paid, so your debt to whoever bought your contract would simply grow.

Robert Louis Stevenson's hero in _Kidnapped_ was facing just such a
fate from what was then a common occurance - his uncle intended
to get rid of an unwanted orphan relative by selling him (for next to
nothing) to a labor broker. Stevenson didn't make this up out of
thin air - the threat he challenged his hero with was made from the
happenings of his day.

The horrors of Workhouses and Prisons we've seen from Charles
Dickens were nothing compared to what happened to those 
who fell to the labor gangs. A lucky few (of the half or so who
survived the trans-atlantic voyage) might have their "contracts" bought
by people needing farm workers, craftsman's assistants, or other
survivable lives. Most went to the logging camps, sugar plantations,
and mining operations that used up "indentured servants" faster than
they could be supplied. 

There was a large underclass, especially in the cities of the United
Kingdom, that quite literally no one cared about. If some of them
were taken from their hovels and died in some unknown land, what
of it? There were always more. 

The factors that lead to this practice dying out were several and slow
to work. It was almost the turn of the century before chimney sweeps
couldn't buy four-year old boys from their parents and drive them to
their deaths in hot, cramped chimney flues. 

ObTrav: Slavery, serf, indentured servant, prisoner - these terms mean
what the governing power wants them to mean, for as far as they want
to enforce these meanings. If you are in a part of space where no
one cares, or are of a class of people no one cares about, you can
have anything done to you for a very long time. Say you're a sophont
race that no one will accept as sentient, for example.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:38:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Ummm, I wouldnt want my pilots to be pulling 6 gees for more than 10
>> > seconds or so. Definitly not maneuvering at 6 gees over the compensators
>> > for tens of minutes on end, which you tend to have to do to try and avoid
>> > laser fire.
>> 
>> The thing is, you are taking those 6 g while lying flat on your back.
>> And any manuevers involve a *small* side acceleration  to get the main
>> drive pointed in the proper direction. Thias is true even for spinning
>> the ship 180 to decelerate. The thrust of the main drive *always* goes
>> in the same direction *relative to the pilot*.
>> 
>> This isn't at all like atmospheric fighters where you use control
>> surfaces against the airstream to change directions. There. the
>> accelerations from rapid turns tend to be in *bad* directions, such as
>> "head to feet" instead of "front to back".
>> 
>> NASA and Air Force studies show that there's very little problem
>> handling extended periods oif accelerastion on your back. 
>> 
>> So the "rules" for "g-tolerance" for aerial combat just plain *don't
>> apply* in space combat. 
>> 
>> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
>
> How about writing up some guideline rules for handling accelerations?

If I had *copies* of the abovementioned studies (rather than brief
summaries) I would. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:40:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:34:35 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) wrote:
> <Snip>
>> The thing is, you are taking those 6 g while lying flat on your
>> back.  And any manoeuvres involve a *small* side acceleration  to
>> get the main drive pointed in the proper direction. Thias is true
>> even for spinning the ship 180 to decelerate. The thrust of the main
>> drive *always* goes in the same direction *relative to the pilot*.

> Is this really the case for small, agile fighters, though? I'd always
> imagined that the excess power used to generate the 'agility' score was
> being used in off-axis thrusts (rather than spinning the boat in place),
> whether you're vectoring the thrust axis of a T-Plate, or you've got
> additional *main nozzles* for the HEPLAR drive. Do we have a feel for
> just how fast you can spin a 50 dton fighter around one of it's
> non-thrust axes without having to cater for the kinds of stresses that
> current aerospace fighters have to handle?

Well, to start with, it makes good sense to put the pilot at the center
of masss of the ship. So that minimizes the sideways accelerations he
feels. Figure a max of 1 meter from the CM, and any rational spin rate
for the ship produces pretty low accelerations as perceived by the
pilot. 

Also, you get a much *stronger* (and lighter!) design if you fix the
main engine in place and use steering jets or the like. and unless the
thrust vector passes thriu the center of mass of the ship, the thrust
will put a *spin* on it!


	Acceleration on a cylinder (space colony, etc.) of radius r and
	    rotation period t:

	    a = 4 pi**2 r / t^2

So, let's plug in aa radius of 1 meter and see what sort of rotation
rate it takes to give one g.

10 = 4 * pi^2 * 1 / t^2
2.5 = pi^2/t^2
2.5 * t^2 = pi^2
t^2 = pi^2/2.5
t^2 = 1.9869...

So you can do a 180 turn in *one* second and the pilot would feel a
whole 1g "outwards". 

I'd say that's adequate performance, wouldn't you?

The reason aircraft experience higher g loads is that the aircraft is a
*long* ways from the center of the turn. 

BTW, note that the acceleration increases *linearly* with radius, so
you *don't* want long narrow fighters. The stress at the points
farthest from the center gets pretty bad. Instead you want something
like the fighters B5 uses. Roughly spherical, with the attitude jets on
outriggers to increase the moment arm (giving faster turns). 

And as I said before, the advantages of placing the pilot at the center
of mass *far* outweigh any disadvantages. For one thing, except when
docking, unaided eyesight is pretty much useless. So you don't *need*
360 degree vision. Instead, you places subsystems so as to give the
pilot extra protection. 

> If I'm dodging lasers, then I don't want to have to waste time rolling
> and thrusting and rolling and GULLLLPPPPP....!

Doesn't make a bit of difference. The *only* way to change your course
is by doing a burn with the main engine. Movement is space works by
vector addition, and your main drive is the only thing powerful enough
to make a significant 

Fighter pilots aren't susceptible to motion sickness, or else they
don't last long. 

>> This isn't at all like atmospheric fighters where you use control
>> surfaces against the airstream to change directions. There. the
>> accelerations from rapid turns tend to be in *bad* directions, such as
>> "head to feet" instead of "front to back".
>> 
>> NASA and Air Force studies show that there's very little problem
>> handling extended periods oif accelerastion on your back. 
>> 
>> So the "rules" for "g-tolerance" for aerial combat just plain *don't
>> apply* in space combat. 
>
> It's very Star Warsy, but if we're talking fighters instead of gunboats,
> then I imagine the paradigm should be one of *flying* the ship, rather
> than *plotting* movement - you use your automation to translate the
> pilot's (aerospace-like) control inputs into the necessary
> pitch/roll/yaw/thrust/VIFF commands.

Well, that's another thing. Given the velocities involved, and the
accelerations provided by the main drive "Viffing" is not possible. Not
in a useful manner. Most of the dodging is likely to be handled by the
computer, while the pilot worries about where he wants to be when.

I expect that one of the displays will be a sort of "plot" showing the
fighter, and with several circles surrounding it, showing where he can
be at various times at various accelerations. (spheres if you have 3d
displays). The pilot would control a dot that indicates where he
actually wants the future position to be.

This is a lot harder to *describe* than to visualize. I may have to try
writing a "fighter vs fighter" game.... :-)

ps. one *big* advantage of being in space is that course and
orientation are mostly un-coupled. So you can be going like a bat out
of hell in one direction while firing your main weapon in a quite
different direction. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:06:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

In mail you write:

> "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote
>
>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>> >Gold is useful because of its malleability and ductility *and*
>> >because its so corrosion resistant. So you'd expect plumbing to be
>> >gold plated. Especially sewer pipe. :-)
>
>> Don't forget thermal conductivity, as well.  
>
> Ok you have convinced me.  How thin a layer of gold is liable to be
> sturdy enough for use in plumbing fixtures?  How will Traveller
> technology change this?  If your starship has (thinly) gold plated
> plumbing will the gold that comes loose be recoverable so it can be
> reapplied?  Maybe part of a ships annual maintenance is pulling the gold
> out of the bottom of the ships waste tanks & reaaplying it to the
> plumbing ducts?

It won't take a lot of gold. After all, in normal use the contents of
the sewer system aren't terribly abrasive. 


> Since it is so thermally conductive as well maybe starship radiators are
> made of, or at least coated with, gold?  You know I think I am beginning
> to understand why Traveller starships cost tens of millions of credits.

Well, for radiators it's *emissivity* not conductivity that counts. As
I recall, gold doesn't radiate IR all that well. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:09:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

In mail you write:

> Just for the record, iridium is rare in the _crust_ but no in
> planet as a whole (it all goes down into the core when it forms).
> You might argue that it is associated with space because it
> occurs more on asteroids (which are relatively undifferentiated)
> than on the surface.  Or may it's irridium because the metal
> is worth more than gold or (I think) platinum....

Iridium generally costs somewhat *less* than platinium, but more than
gold. It gets the name because its compounds have lots of iridescent
colors. 

Iridium (in the form of platinum iridium alloys) is noted for
*stability*. Not only are such alloys corrosion resistant, but they are
thermally stable (that is they don't expand and contract much as
temperature changes). That's why they were used in creating standards
for mass and length in the old days.

And about those asteroids. Actually, asteroids *arte* well
diferentiated. It's just that after they cooled, collisions broke off
chunks of the stony "crust" leaving behind the exposed "core". Makes
mining a lot simpler. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:34:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Exothermic Hell, Part II

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > This exam question reminds me of one asked in a colloquium at my
>> > university in chemistry:
>> >
>> > If your knight stands at Al(uminum), which elements do you reach?
>> 
>> Nitrogen, Arsenic, Tin, Cadmium and Copper.
>> 
>> :-)
>
> With or without using the Periodic Table?
> In the colloq there wasn't any.

I did use the table. But there was a time when I could *draw* a
periodic table from memory and be fairly accurate. If there were any
lists (even partial) of elements around that gave atomic number, I
could draw an empty table and fill in from them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:01:55 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: OOps

Sorry about sending the Spreadsheet to the list, I sort of Forked up. Forgot
to paste the intended recipients name in to the to field...

Sorry about that.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:12:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> Check out "Backus-Naur" notation. It's used for defining "syntax" when
> designing programming languages. I've found that any well-written law
> becomes *much* shorter and clearer when translated into it, and even
> poorly written ones become clear (or at least the ambiguities jump out
> at you). 

	Oh good, then it won't just *seem* like the lawyers are speaking 
another language, they actually will be!

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:57:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Feudal Technocracy

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Heck, for that matter, the ideal of fuedalism is a lot different than
> what most people think of.
<snip>
> In a way, feudal relationships were the beginning of contract law. A
> vassal didn't just swear oaths to his lord. They swore oaths to *each
> other*. Failure by *either* party to carry out his duties voided the
> oaths.
> 
> Heck, this has the potential to be a lot better than the current setup
> for a lot of things. For example, you and your boos would have
> interlocking oaths, either that or you'd have oaths with someone higher
> up and the boss would be their representative. So if you felt the boss
> was mistreating you, you'd actually have grounds to challenge his
> behavior as being in violation of the "contract". 
<snip> 
> This is a much more *personal* system than modern society is used to.
> But it may actually be *more* workable (and "livable") *because* of this.
> 
> It'd be fun running players up against a planet that did fuedalism
> *right*. :-)

	I'd be interested to hear what your idea of Feudal Technocracy 
might look like.  I'm interested because I'm detailing Oriflamme in the 
RC.  I think it is an interesting world precisely because F-Techs seem to 
be generally portrayed as oppressive.
  
> The key is making sure that the "lord" has duties to the serf, and that
> failure to carry them out releases the serf. So if the crops are bad
> due to a drought or some other thing beyond the serf's control, the
> lord has to supply food from *his* reserves. If he doesn't, the serfs
> can legitimately consider their "contract" null and void and leave for
> a lord who could use more serfs (and there will usually be such
> *somewhere*). 

	This is actually a class of problems I've studied.  Economists 
class them under Transaction Cost Economics or Agency Theory.  You have a 
problem in defining when an adverse crop yield is the result of an 
exogenous event (eg. drought) or through failure by one party or another 
(eg. laziness).  Who gets to decide?  How does one allocate 
responsibility?  Maybe there was a mild drought, but the serfs took this 
as license to slack off and the resulting drop in crop yield was much 
greater than it needed to be.  You can try to create a dizzingly complex 
contract that specifies all this, but there will always be things you 
can't anticipate and/or the need to adapt to changing circumstances will 
exceed you ability to quickly write a new contract.  The only solution is 
to align the incentives of the parties sufficiently well that they have 
the same interests.  In the context of the above example, that means the 
lord and serfs splitting the crop yield so that the serfs have an 
incentive to work hard on the lord's land and the lord has an incentive 
to provide the sort of capital improvements (irrigation ditches, etc.) 
that will improve yields for everybody.  It's not perfect but it is, in 
general, the best solution.
 
> Honour was the big reason in most places *before* the Church got really
> strong. If the lord didn't carry out his obligations to the serfs,
> they'd quit carrying out their obligations to *him* and fade into the
> forests. This tended to be *really* bad for the lord in question. 

	I'm not sure how this would work in practice, either in a 
Medieval or Futuristic context.  The serfs still have to eat.  I suppose 
Medieval serfs could live off the bounty of the forest for a limited 
time, but not indefinitely.  Technocratic serfs are likely living in 
their liege's housing and using his TV cable system.  More likely they'd 
just practice the sort of work slowdowns and "accidental" breakages that 
you mentioned under indentured servitude.

	I think the only way to make a feudal system work well, especially
in a futuristic context, is to make Honor very important.  Ambiguous
situations will still be subject to different interpretations, but if one
party isn't seen by the public to be genuinely working toward the common
good it will lose honor, making future dealings with *anyone* in that
honor-bound society more difficult.  The economic models I mentioned above
all assume that people practice "self-interest seeking with guile" meaning
they are willing to lie and cheat as long as they can get away with it
under the letter of the contract.  To the extent that a Feudal Technocracy
is able to culturally eliminate such behavior, I think it will be a viable
system.  An F-Tech gov't might even be desirable in the same way that a
benevolent dictatorship is said to be the best form of government. 
 
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:26:43 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)


>In mail you write:
>
>> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target a ship
in
>> space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers and laser
sighting
>> for this. they can be hit with anti radar missles with ease.
>
>Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>*optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of a
>garbage can.
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


That works well for things that they know are there already but doesn't take
into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing they are
tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a cosmonaut YEARS
ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track and exactly
where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and they just
look it up when they want to go look for it.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:21:54 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighters

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BTW, note that the acceleration increases *linearly* with radius, so
you *don't* want long narrow fighters. The stress at the points
farthest from the center gets pretty bad. Instead you want something
like the fighters B5 uses. Roughly spherical, with the attitude jets on
outriggers to increase the moment arm (giving faster turns). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This may be enough to make aerospace capable fighters rare - that is,
fighters that are designed to be effective both in space combat and in
air superiority/ground attack roles. Different body styles, right?
Unless you could make a streamlined sphere with enough contragrav
to make do with limited airflow control surfaces.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:23:56 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: re- sorry about the letters...

i didnt really know about all that...

i just pasted the data off of the webpage i found the information on...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 17:14:27 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Slavery and Serfdom

On 08/10/98 at 04:56 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

<re: serfs...>

>in some cases.  But it is clearly distinct from slavery.  Serfs could
>always leave.

I agreed with you right up to the last point.  Serfs couldn't always
leave.

In some cases Serfs were bound to the land (not the Lord, but the
land) and could not legally leave...period.  In most other cases,
they had to get permission from the Lord (or his representative) and
provide an acceptable replacement to work the land they were
leaving. 

Even if they did leave, legally or illegally, where was there to go?
Towns and cities.  Ok, if you could get to one, if you could get one
to let you through the gates if you got there, if you could get a
job once you got in.  Vagrancy was frowned upon, in both town and
country.

OTOH, the Lord could usually find a way to get rid of serfs if he
wanted to.  And if he and his peers engaged in a little rape,
pillage, and murder who was going to stop, or bring them to justice?
Not their victims (they couldn't), not their peers (they wouldn't,
not for peasents), not the church (they didn't care about the
physical, just the spiritial), and not the King (as long as he got
his cut and the peasents didn't revolt, he didn't care).

No, serfdom wasn't slavery, but it was the next thing to it.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 01:55:08 +0100
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list

Hot patooties,

Are there no gearheads out there ready to help a fellow gearhead?

Tim

Tim Crowfoot wrote:

> Greetings to the list.
>
> I've seen one or two references to a Traveller Tech Mailing list.
>
> Can anyone give me more info, where to join etc?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:53:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Slavery and Serfdom

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OTOH, the Lord could usually find a way to get rid of serfs if he
wanted to.  And if he and his peers engaged in a little rape,
pillage, and murder who was going to stop, or bring them to justice?
Not their victims (they couldn't), not their peers (they wouldn't,
not for peasents), not the church (they didn't care about the
physical, just the spiritial), and not the King (as long as he got
his cut and the peasents didn't revolt, he didn't care).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's a song I've heard sung around a Society for Creative
Anachronism campfire, that they tell me is based on an old
folk song one didn't sing when the Laird of the Manor was in
earshot. It's called "Worms of the Earth". It's based on what
a couple hundred desperate men can do when they know
they have nothing to lose.

"They've killed us before and tomorrow we die, but we'll
drink from their helmets tonight..."

It was about the serfs of a manor ridding the world of their
lord, though they knew that (by the social contract of the
day) it meant the lords around them would slay them all.
It was a warning to those lords as well - aye, we'll die for
it, but push us too hard and others will have to avenge you
as well...you'll be avenged, but you'll be just as ignobly dead.

Contracts working both ways aren't generally based solely
on honor. Many are based on fear as well...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #732
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 11 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 733



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Slavery and Serfdom
Re: (OT) Help w/ MPGN
Re: courts of appeal
Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list
Re: Feudal Technocracy
Imperial legal system (was: Warrant of Restoration)
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Slavery in the Imperium
Re: Slavery
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list
Traveller worlds
Re: Slavery
Re: Traveller worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 19:55:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Slavery and Serfdom

On 08/10/98 at 11:55 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>In a way, feudal relationships were the beginning of contract law. A
>vassal didn't just swear oaths to his lord. They swore oaths to *each
>other*. Failure by *either* party to carry out his duties voided the
>oaths.

Yes, Leonard, but serfs and peasants weren't covered by such things.
Oaths of fealty were between Nobles...peers.  Serfs weren't
considered the peers of the nobility.  Any thought of equality
between the peasant in the field and the Lord in the castle would
have been considered *real* heresy.  ;-> Serfs weren't slaves, but
don't make them out to be anything but oppressed.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 20:00:55 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) Help w/ MPGN

On 08/10/98 at 12:46 PM,  DustyLV769@aol.com said:

>Sorry for the off-topic post...

>   The link I have for the MPGN-Net list (where I discovered this
>wonderful list) has apparently been changed...I can't access the list
>of the different games that have mailing lists anymore.  Can anyone
>tell me the new link (if any), or is it just no longer in existance? 
>I seem to recall being able to download past digests from there as
>well.

I'm posting this to the list just in case anyone else is interested.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:05:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: courts of appeal

Greg Smith wrote:

> Bloo wrote:
>
> >Sector Archduke
> >(Same authority as the Subsector Duke, but he may either send a case
> to
> >the final court,
> >or recommend the Emperor deal with it, directly).
>
> Seems to me this should be either the Sector Duke, or the Domain
> Archduke, but not the Sector Archduke....  Perhaps the Sector Duke
> sends
> appeals to the Emperor, but the Archduke makes the decision (speaking
> for the Emperor, unless the archduke decides the case should go to the
>
> emperor or involves some nobility who have the direct appeal to the
> emperor.)

You are probably correct.  I'm not up to date on my Nobility/Region of
Control, so Duke, Archduke, whatever.  I meant whoever is the rank noble
for the sector.

Don't know anything about domains.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 20:09:36 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Gold Plumbing (was Re: A few responses to Walt Smith)

On 08/10/98 at 02:06 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>It won't take a lot of gold. After all, in normal use the contents of
>the sewer system aren't terribly abrasive. 

>> Since it is so thermally conductive as well maybe starship radiators are
>> made of, or at least coated with, gold?  You know I think I am beginning
>> to understand why Traveller starships cost tens of millions of credits.

>Well, for radiators it's *emissivity* not conductivity that counts.
>As I recall, gold doesn't radiate IR all that well. 

Gold is considered a good *reflector* of IR.  It has been used as an
outer coating on a number satellites for that very reason.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:17:39 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

Joe Pettit wrote:

> I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about recently regarding
> Slavery.  Where exactly is this Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
>
> to it until it showed up here.

Its in Milieu 0, in the reference data.  Very handy place for it, since
that book covers the beginning of the Third Imperium.

Although I have referenced it frequently here, I imagine it is not the
only very important legal document of the 3I.  I picture the legal
backdrop of the 3I similar to the UK, or at least my understanding of
it.  There is no one written constitution, as there is in the US, to
which all citizens may look for the bedrock law of the government.  This
isn't an especially prudent thing to do for an Emperor and it will be
moot if the Emperor changes his mind.

What I picture is a very select few documents that are cited as legal
authority that in total, paint
the backdrop of fundamental Imperium law, and to which most Emperors
accede.  The general nature of such documents as well as their rarity,
give most emperors enough wiggle room to say that they are acting within
the letter of Imperium constitution/fundamental law, while actually able
to do whatever they want.  Thus placating member worlds.  [From what
little I know about MT, there may be some reason for this in that
situation].

As far as actual written laws go, I think the Romano-German tradition
found in England, France, Germany, etc., is appropriate, where the laws
are often brief and in general language, and the courts are not bound by
precedent (Stare Decisis), as they are in the US (at least on paper).
That gives a court freedom to decide the same situation differently in
different cases.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:29:33 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list

Sorry Tim, I expected one of the others to reply before now. Here's the info
send "subscribe" in e-mail to trav-tech-request@qrc.com

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list


>Hot patooties,
>
>Are there no gearheads out there ready to help a fellow gearhead?
>
>Tim
>
>Tim Crowfoot wrote:
>
>> Greetings to the list.
>>
>> I've seen one or two references to a Traveller Tech Mailing list.
>>
>> Can anyone give me more info, where to join etc?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tim
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:51:39 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Feudal Technocracy

Hmmm... W/out trying to be a smarta**, it seems to me that a f-tech society
_has_ already been described. It's called Barrayar. The interlocking oaths and
economic obligations that run both ways...

It's not always a _nice_ society; any more than the 3I (err.. will be?) or 20
C. USA is.

William 

William Barnett-Lewis
wlewis@mailbag.com

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:57:56 -0400 (EDT)
> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> Subject: Feudal Technocracy
> 
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> > Heck, for that matter, the ideal of fuedalism is a lot different than
> > what most people think of.
> <snip>
> > In a way, feudal relationships were the beginning of contract law. A
> > vassal didn't just swear oaths to his lord. They swore oaths to *each
> > other*. Failure by *either* party to carry out his duties voided the
> > oaths.
> >
> > Heck, this has the potential to be a lot better than the current setup
> > for a lot of things. For example, you and your boos would have
> > interlocking oaths, either that or you'd have oaths with someone higher
> > up and the boss would be their representative. So if you felt the boss
> > was mistreating you, you'd actually have grounds to challenge his
> > behavior as being in violation of the "contract".
> <snip>
> > This is a much more *personal* system than modern society is used to.
> > But it may actually be *more* workable (and "livable") *because* of this.
> >
> > It'd be fun running players up against a planet that did fuedalism
> > *right*. :-)
> 
>         I'd be interested to hear what your idea of Feudal Technocracy
> might look like.  I'm interested because I'm detailing Oriflamme in the
> RC.  I think it is an interesting world precisely because F-Techs seem to
> be generally portrayed as oppressive.
> 
> > The key is making sure that the "lord" has duties to the serf, and that
> > failure to carry them out releases the serf. So if the crops are bad
> > due to a drought or some other thing beyond the serf's control, the
> > lord has to supply food from *his* reserves. If he doesn't, the serfs
> > can legitimately consider their "contract" null and void and leave for
> > a lord who could use more serfs (and there will usually be such
> > *somewhere*).
> 
>         This is actually a class of problems I've studied.  Economists
> class them under Transaction Cost Economics or Agency Theory.  You have a
> problem in defining when an adverse crop yield is the result of an
> exogenous event (eg. drought) or through failure by one party or another
> (eg. laziness).  Who gets to decide?  How does one allocate
> responsibility?  Maybe there was a mild drought, but the serfs took this
> as license to slack off and the resulting drop in crop yield was much
> greater than it needed to be.  You can try to create a dizzingly complex
> contract that specifies all this, but there will always be things you
> can't anticipate and/or the need to adapt to changing circumstances will
> exceed you ability to quickly write a new contract.  The only solution is
> to align the incentives of the parties sufficiently well that they have
> the same interests.  In the context of the above example, that means the
> lord and serfs splitting the crop yield so that the serfs have an
> incentive to work hard on the lord's land and the lord has an incentive
> to provide the sort of capital improvements (irrigation ditches, etc.)
> that will improve yields for everybody.  It's not perfect but it is, in
> general, the best solution.
> 
> > Honour was the big reason in most places *before* the Church got really
> > strong. If the lord didn't carry out his obligations to the serfs,
> > they'd quit carrying out their obligations to *him* and fade into the
> > forests. This tended to be *really* bad for the lord in question.
> 
>         I'm not sure how this would work in practice, either in a
> Medieval or Futuristic context.  The serfs still have to eat.  I suppose
> Medieval serfs could live off the bounty of the forest for a limited
> time, but not indefinitely.  Technocratic serfs are likely living in
> their liege's housing and using his TV cable system.  More likely they'd
> just practice the sort of work slowdowns and "accidental" breakages that
> you mentioned under indentured servitude.
> 
>         I think the only way to make a feudal system work well, especially
> in a futuristic context, is to make Honor very important.  Ambiguous
> situations will still be subject to different interpretations, but if one
> party isn't seen by the public to be genuinely working toward the common
> good it will lose honor, making future dealings with *anyone* in that
> honor-bound society more difficult.  The economic models I mentioned above
> all assume that people practice "self-interest seeking with guile" meaning
> they are willing to lie and cheat as long as they can get away with it
> under the letter of the contract.  To the extent that a Feudal Technocracy
> is able to culturally eliminate such behavior, I think it will be a viable
> system.  An F-Tech gov't might even be desirable in the same way that a
> benevolent dictatorship is said to be the best form of government.
> 
> - -JM
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:55:49 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Imperial legal system (was: Warrant of Restoration)

Date sent:      	Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:17:39 -0500
From:           	steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> As far as actual written laws go, I think the Romano-German tradition
> found in England, France, Germany, etc., is appropriate, where the laws
> are often brief and in general language, and the courts are not bound by
> precedent (Stare Decisis), as they are in the US (at least on paper).
> That gives a court freedom to decide the same situation differently in
> different cases.

Uhmm, the US legal system is almost entirely based on the English Common 
Law system (to the extent where decisions in one are obiter <sp> in the other). 
I think what you are referring to is the Civil Code systems prevelant on the 
continent. IMTU I've always assumed that the Imperial legal system is an 
inquisitorial Civil Code system rather than an adversorial Common Law system 
(eg the US, England and most of the Commonwealth). IMTU you have Imperial 
tribunals (3 to 5 judges) which decide both law and fact.

IMTU law theoretically derives from the Moot not the Emperor (a Sylean 
holdover), but the Emperor as President of the Moot is the instrument of the law 
and as such the legal system runs down parallel to the Nobility, every Imperial 
noble is in theory a judge, but in practice they delegate their authority to a 
trained court. All but the most minor cases are heard in County court in the first 
instance (most Barons and Marquis do not have courts, but do occassionally 
hear minor cases; sort of like current JP's). An appeal to a Ducal court is 
usually automatic, with further appeals being by leave only (requiring a serious 
point of law or fact). Aquitals can only be appealed on the grounds of purjury. 
Some serious cases (treason etc.) are heard directly in a Ducal court, but the 
superior courts (Sector Ducal, Archducal, and Imperial) are stricly appellant in 
nature. Courts are not bound by precident, but are required to "be guided by" (a 
deliberatly vague term) decisions of superior courts (note they are not required 
to "be guided by" other courts of the same level). The courts are inquistorial 
and the judges are required to determine the facts as well as the law, as such 
they call witnesses and question them. Both parties to any case are _required_ 
to engage council and councillors may ask leave of the courts to call or 
question witnesses (but the court can in theory refuse). Note here that 
councillors do not have the automatic right to call or even question witnesses, 
but that a refusal would be very good grounds for an appeal.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:44:34 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

At 04:19 PM 8/10/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about 
>recently regarding Slavery.  Where exactly is this 
>Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
>to it until it showed up here.

It's in the T4 rules.

The Warrant of Restoration is the founding
document of the Third Imperium, where Cleon
lays claim to the legacy of the First and
Second Imperiums (Imperii?) [thus the
"restoration" of Imperial govenment], 
and establishes the basics of the 3I's political 
and organizational structure. 

JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:26:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>
>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
>> In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
>> day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
>> that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
>> complaints sent to the IMOJ.
>>
>> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
>> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
>> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
>> they were "just doing my job").
>>
>
> There's FAR more local law enforcers than IMOJ clerks on any specific
> planet.  If the local government wants slavery, that clerk becomes a
> mushroom.

You are assuming that the clerk is on world. That'd be
*extraordinarily* stupid of the Imperium. More likely he's at the
subsector capital. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:31:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium

In mail you write:

> Hhmmm....Has anyone else had the "Lost minor race: the Draka" idea?  

And you thought the *Rebellion* disrupted things?!!!

Not in *my* TU, thank you very much!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:28:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slavery

In mail you write:

> One series of books I have read offers a pretty good look at a society that
> practices slavery is the Draka series by  S.M. Stirling. (Marching thru
> Georgia, Under the Yoke, and the Stone Dogs).  It is a alternate-history 
> story
> where the Tories and the Confederates, after losing thier wars, emigrated to
> what is today South Africa, and built a slave-operated empire.  An extremely
> good series, with some interesting morality questions as well.

There's a 4th book, "Drakon"(?). It has a Draka from a time several
centuries *after* "The Stone Dogs" complete with some interesting gear
wind up on Earth in *this* timeline, and *now*. 

Damn scary!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:35:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

John H Bogan Jr wrote:

> At 04:19 PM 8/10/1998 -0400, you wrote:
> >I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about
> >recently regarding Slavery.  Where exactly is this
> >Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
> >to it until it showed up here.
>
> It's in the T4 rules.

Well, that explains why I never saw it...Is it actually written out or
just sort of glossed over?  What are the key points?

> The Warrant of Restoration is the founding
> document of the Third Imperium, where Cleon
> lays claim to the legacy of the First and
> Second Imperiums (Imperii?) [thus the
> "restoration" of Imperial govenment],
> and establishes the basics of the 3I's political
> and organizational structure.

The slavery clause sounds suspiciously like a political gambit.  Slavery
seems incongruous to the politcal and organizational structure that the
rest of the Warrant describes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:40:11 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

> >> On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
> >> In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
> >> day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
> >> that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
> >> complaints sent to the IMOJ.
> >>
> >> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
> >> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
> >> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
> >> they were "just doing my job").
> >>
> >
> > There's FAR more local law enforcers than IMOJ clerks on any specific
> > planet.  If the local government wants slavery, that clerk becomes a
> > mushroom.
>
> You are assuming that the clerk is on world. That'd be
> *extraordinarily* stupid of the Imperium. More likely he's at the
> subsector capital.

And just how does multiple parsecs of distance make him any less of a mushroom
if the local world wants to keep their dirty little secret?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:37:36 +0100
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list

Michael

Thanks for the info

Moving into GEAR!!!

Tim


Michael D. Peters wrote:

> Sorry Tim, I expected one of the others to reply before now. Here's the info
> send "subscribe" in e-mail to trav-tech-request@qrc.com
>
> Mike Peters
> Letterworks@CITNET.com
> "Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: (slightly off topic!)Trav tech Mailing list
>
> >Hot patooties,
> >
> >Are there no gearheads out there ready to help a fellow gearhead?
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >Tim Crowfoot wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings to the list.
> >>
> >> I've seen one or two references to a Traveller Tech Mailing list.
> >>
> >> Can anyone give me more info, where to join etc?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Tim
> >
> >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:06:39 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Traveller worlds

I'm struggling with the location of some Traveller worlds and wondered if
anyone could help.

As you may be aware I've been creating a bibliography of the 'big 5'
Traveller periodicals.  I've endeavoured to "locate" adventures and other
material wherever possible in known space, but have struck a blank on a few
worlds.

Is anyone able to provide a sector and hex location for any of the
following (as well as a reference as to how you know):

Essex
Hinterworlds.  Mentioned in Challenge 48/50/51 'Behind Blue Eyes 1-3'

Giettaciin
Traveller Chronicle 8, 'Tsuga Orbital'

Githiaski
"Githiaski/Dartho 0806 on the fringe of the Lesser Rift" if that helps.
Mentioned in JTAS 16, 'Contact: The Githiaskio'

Melantris
Old Expanses.  JTAS 24, 'The Dynchia'

Mikkadhir
Challenge 75, 'The Long Fall Club'

Stataorlai
Supposedly in the Kyaenkha subsector of Dark Nebula sector but not in the
_Solomani and Aslan_ version that I can see.  JTAS 20, 'Raid on Stataorlai'

Vrirhlanz
Vargr Extents, JTAS 22, 'Contact: The Hlanssai'




I have about 20 other worlds too, but I'm reasonably convinced these were
not located anywhere specific.  If anyone wants to see these and have a go
at locating them, contact me and I'll send the list.  (Early JTAS articles
often referred to a world as 'in the Spinward Marches' even if it's not
appeared on any sector map that I've ever seen.  Lorelei, JTAS 21,
'Homesteader's Stand' seems to be an example of this.)

 It is possible that some of the above are the same, but as they have
little location info, I thought it worth a shot.


Many thanks and good hunting.  I should say that I've had a fair crack at
trying to find them homes but I've done hundreds of worlds and my eyes may
be swimming!

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:20:49 -0700
From: Diane Freitas <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Slavery

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> There's a 4th book, "Drakon"(?). It has a Draka from a time several
> centuries *after* "The Stone Dogs" complete with some interesting gear
> wind up on Earth in *this* timeline, and *now*.
> 
> Damn scary!


	Yes, it's a great book.  I plan to use 'it' as a most evil
boogeyman in a campaign.  It would be very interesting, and I expect
a pretty high body count (for the Draka of course).

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:30:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Traveller worlds

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

> I have about 20 other worlds too, but I'm reasonably convinced these were
> not located anywhere specific.  If anyone wants to see these and have a go
> at locating them, contact me and I'll send the list.  (Early JTAS articles
> often referred to a world as 'in the Spinward Marches' even if it's not
> appeared on any sector map that I've ever seen.  Lorelei, JTAS 21,
> 'Homesteader's Stand' seems to be an example of this.)

There's always the possibility of putting such a planet into a system
named by another world. That is a point that confuses me sometimes - e.g.
Regina has a lot more other worlds, some of them populated. But you get
not much information of these. 
The only exeption might be Sol - besides Earth, Mars would be populated
too.

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #733
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 11 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 734



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Slavery and Serfdom
Re: Honor Harrington
re: Fighters
Aerospace Fighters (was re: Fighters)
Re: Feudal Technocracy
Re: Traveller worlds
Islands Cluster Routes
re:Islands Cluster Routes
Fighters, again (longish).
Re: Slavery in the Imperium / Super-Races
Re: Honor Harrington
re: Fighters
Underwater fire combat
Irridium
Serfdom
Justice
Re: Underwater fire combat
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Irridium
re: Warrant of Restoration

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:05:46 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Slavery and Serfdom

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
>
>Yes, Leonard, but serfs and peasants weren't covered by such things.
>Oaths of fealty were between Nobles...peers.  Serfs weren't
>considered the peers of the nobility.  Any thought of equality
>between the peasant in the field and the Lord in the castle would
>have been considered *real* heresy.  ;-> Serfs weren't slaves, but
>don't make them out to be anything but oppressed.
>
>
>Eris
>-- 

"'E's repressin' me!  E's repressin' me!  Now we see the violence 
inherant in the system!...."

The Count,
Monte "Python" Cristo


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:12:50 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

At 08:38 4/08/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>I'd love to see Honor confronted with Miles Vorkosigan (and vice-versa).

I haven't a clue who would win, but I'd really, really prefer to be on
Miles' side - he's so much better at keeping his people alive.
 
- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:21:50 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Fighters

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>BTW, note that the acceleration increases *linearly* with radius, so
>you *don't* want long narrow fighters. The stress at the points
>farthest from the center gets pretty bad. Instead you want something
>like the fighters B5 uses. Roughly spherical, with the attitude jets on
>outriggers to increase the moment arm (giving faster turns). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>This may be enough to make aerospace capable fighters rare - that is,
>fighters that are designed to be effective both in space combat and in
>air superiority/ground attack roles. Different body styles, right?
>Unless you could make a streamlined sphere with enough contragrav
>to make do with limited airflow control surfaces.
>

What if you were to make use of "retractable surfaces" like are used 
with the corsairs, or flow through openings or channels in the hull of 
the sphere?  You could probably create something that would give small 
lift surfaces, but I have no idea if it would really be feasible.
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:41:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Aerospace Fighters (was re: Fighters)

Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What if you were to make use of "retractable surfaces" like are used 
with the corsairs, or flow through openings or channels in the hull of 
the sphere?  You could probably create something that would give small 
lift surfaces, but I have no idea if it would really be feasible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You don't need lift as much as you need steering vanes. In-atmosphere
work requires much tighter maneuvering than deep space work,
thinks are closer by a couple orders of magnitude.

If your contra-grav is good enough, your fighter might be able to
work in atmosphere just as well as it does in space - just slower
because of atmospheric resistance. In that case, you'd go with the
semi-spherical body styles we were talking about earlier. 

On the other hand, you might not have the power on board for
sufficient contra-grav, or may want to spend it elsewhere. In that
case, you might build your fighter in a hypersonic airframe, so you
can buy some lift from all that soup you're flying through.

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) 
?stls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:01:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Feudal Technocracy

> From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
> Subject: Re: Feudal Technocracy
> 
> Hmmm... W/out trying to be a smarta**, it seems to me that a f-tech society
> _has_ already been described. It's called Barrayar. The interlocking oaths and
> economic obligations that run both ways...

	Fortunately I've read those books, otherwise I'd have no idea 
what you're talking about.  I don't think Barrayar is a feudal 
technocracy, just feudal.  Niven & Pournelle make reference to something 
like "industrial feudalism" very briefly in Mote in God's Eye, but I got 
the impression that it would produce things like "Baron of Garbage 
Collection."  I'm looking for something that transplants the notion of 
nobility and feudal obligation onto the complexity of a technological 
society.
 
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:07:36 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Traveller worlds

> From:          Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> 
> Is anyone able to provide a sector and hex location for any of the
> following (as well as a reference as to how you know):
> 
> Essex
> Hinterworlds.  Mentioned in Challenge 48/50/51 'Behind Blue Eyes 1-3'

0524 Hinterworlds   D687734-2

This is the same system as Riies (C888975-8) - the system has a number of 
habitable worlds orbiting a GG.

 
> Giettaciin
> Traveller Chronicle 8, 'Tsuga Orbital'

According to the article, this world's location was left undefined.

 
> Githiaski
> "Githiaski/Dartho 0806 on the fringe of the Lesser Rift" if that helps.
> Mentioned in JTAS 16, 'Contact: The Githiaskio'

This world will be in the rimward (Imperial) part of The Empty Quarter sector 
or the coreward end of Ley sector.  I don't know if either of those sectors has 
been detailed, though.

 
> Melantris
> Old Expanses.  JTAS 24, 'The Dynchia'

0633 Leonidae   A6669C7-C

This is the 2nd sector to trailing of Old Expanses.  The author wrote the 
article without reference the the Atlas of the Imperium, so made up his own 
sector names and world locations, which do not agree with that source.  I 
assume he had only the known space map shown in the Library Data LLBs, and the 
Dynchia occupy the blob straddling the rimward border between Hinterworlds 
and Leonidae sectors.  Alas, but when the Hinterworlds were written up later in 
Challenge, they did not try to fit the Dynchia in, and a different polity 
occupies that blob of space.


> Mikkadhir
> Challenge 75, 'The Long Fall Club'

I couldn't find this one listed in the Reformation Coalition's Area of 
Operations.


> Stataorlai
> Supposedly in the Kyaenkha subsector of Dark Nebula sector but not in the
> _Solomani and Aslan_ version that I can see.  JTAS 20, 'Raid on Stataorlai'

The adventure was written before Dark Nebula was detailed, and didn't make it 
into DGP's write-up.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:23:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Islands Cluster Routes

A request:
Has Reft Sector (the sector containing the Islands Cluster from
Trillion Credit Squadron) been detailed in Canon yet? I'm trying
to figure out what kind of legs the Royal Sansterrean Navy needs
to put on their consular ships and exploratory trade vessels that
are venturing into Imperial space. These are part of the government
Navy, not private vessels - there's no way Sansterre can ship enough
cargo on a Jump-6 (via 2xJump-3) vessel to make a profit. The
government figures that the benefits from a trickle of non-Islands trade
is worthwhile, even if all they get are electronic copies of science
and technology journals and the occaisional cast-off TL-14 starship.<g>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:51:19 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re:Islands Cluster Routes

To answer my own question, now that I've noticed Reft exists in the
Galactic program...Sansterre can send a Jump-9 vessel to Eskandor
or Jokelyn in Limon/Reft sector, based out of a colony at St. Denis.
Even a Jump-1 vessel will be 99% fuel, bridge, and drives, so it looks
like Sansterre ain't going anywhere without lots of deep space refueling
platforms.

(Thanks to Jim Vassilakos, Galactic is a wonderful program)

The shortest route out of the clusters is still a long haul.
It looks like Zuflucht can send a Jump-7 ship to Tonnurad in
Usher/Reft sector. I'll bet this is where _El Dorado_ left Islands
Cluster from after getting help at Serendip Belt. I am wondering
at the scouts who made the voyage back to the Clusters after
the war - what a trip (scenario idea?) that must have been.
And once the scouts discovered Serendip Belt trying to use their
copied Jump drives to take over the cluster, how did they distribute
the secret? One jump ahead of the Serendip Starfleet? Or were the
Serendipians doing an economic domination, rather than a military
one?

Imagine how much things changed for the Islands cluster after
_El Dorado_'s visit. Peoples who had, for generations, only known
the occaisional interstellar visitor. I'll bet C-Jammer and the other
asteroid-hulled STL colony ships were'nt combat vessels.
If their radio astronomy was up to it, they may have recieved or even
sent messages to the Imperium beyond the Rift - 30 years
one-way transmission time or more. They may have known that
FTL was possible, but I doubt that they'd have built or maintained
defense fleets or planetary defense bases. In their world, you
could see an invasion fleet about a decade away or so.

Suddenly, without warning, ships appear out of nowhere 
only 100 diameters from their homeworlds. Serendip ships, then
the ships of the worlds granted Jump drive by the IISS. In a
generation or so they go from isolated worlds to connected
worlds, it takes a week to get to the system next door instead
of generations. The disruption must have been amazing.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 19:16:43 +0100
From: Fred Hood <Fred@cetaganda.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Fighters, again (longish).

My personal opinion (which should not be construed as an attack upon 
anyone elses opinions) is that fighters have the following roles in the 
Traveller universe (I define a fighter here as a sub-100-ton craft 
without significant transport roles and with an emphasis on manoeuvre 
performance and armament):

1. Reconnaissance. This could be performed physically (i.e. there is no 
enemy here because I'm here), or by providing inputs to a very long 
baseline array for high-resolution, long range, sensing. Larger units 
could perform these roles but this could lead to dispersal of effort. 
This role may require a high endurance fighter design with a 2 or more 
crew and bunking.

2. Shadowing. Here a fighter is able to detect and shadow other forces 
performing a 'light cavalry' role. If the shadowed unit wishes to chase 
the fighter away it is unlikely to be able to catch the fighter and if 
your enemy wishes to chase inferior units with larger vessels he's 
welcome. This role requires a fighter with long endurance and ideally the 
ability to detect it's target while remaining undetected or then good 
anti-missile defenses.

3. Ground attack. Space fighters, despite their inferior performance 
compared to atmospheric fighters, do represent significant firepower on 
the Striker battlefield. They also represent rather poor targets for deep 
meson guns, being hard to hit and massively overkilled if hit.

4. Attack of weak units. This includes shooting up freighters/supply 
ships (I certainly wouldn't want a Traveller Universe where the PC's 
'freighter' couldn't be attacked by a group of fighters :) ). Even a 
naval auxilliary would not want to waste significant displacement on 
armour and weapons that it could use to carry fuel, or missiles - it 
would probably be better to spend the cost of armour or weapons on 
escorts and then send the valuable hold space away while battle is 
joined. Other vulnerable targets would include enemy cripples or possibly 
enemy SDBs (but I expect that these latter would not be popular targets, 
much like attacking PFs with fighters in SFB). This is probably the only 
role in which I would expect to see massed fighters making concentrated 
attacks, and their relative performance advantage should allow them to 
concentrate on selected targets.

I agree with many posters that the attack of capital units and especially 
of integrated (fleet) squadrons would be an act of desperation or 
suicidal stupidity. These are not SFB, Starfire or Star Wars fighters. I 
do however feel that an allocation of 2-5% of displacement on a cruiser 
or larger ship may be worthwhile to allow some of the roles above to be 
performed they add to ship flexibility. This is especially true on ships 
like the AHLs which will not be accompanied by many escorts and will tend 
to be operating with minimal support. Though I have always felt that the 
Tigresses could have used 50 or so 400 ton SBDs each rather than their 
300 heavy fighters.

I have found the current (and the last series) of fighter posts to be 
useful and informative. I would also welcome more views on the roles of 
Traveller naval units and hence their required performance.

Fred.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:56:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium / Super-Races

>> Hhmmm....Has anyone else had the "Lost minor race: the Draka" idea?  
>
>And you thought the *Rebellion* disrupted things?!!!

  In Pournelles' "Co-Dominium" timeline didn't the (First) Empire collapse
as a result of over-extending itself while suppressing the Saurons (a bio-
engineered nation of humans)?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 13:39:35 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

On 08/11/98 at 04:12 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>I'd love to see Honor confronted with Miles Vorkosigan (and vice-versa).

Nah!  They're both "good guys" fighting for truth, justice and
the...um, better not say the American way, or Anders will go off on
a "no yanks in space" tirade ;->...fighting on the right side.  

If they appeared in a book together, they'd just *have* to be
allies.  Prickly relationship at first, ground combat, trapped in a
tight spot, they save each other, leading to a romance, followed by
major space battle, with Miles as strategist and Honor as tactician,
but then in the end Miles would have to die.  All Honor's lovers
eventually die, don't they?  She's like one of the Cartwright boys,
kiss in the first reel, dead by the last. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:03:16 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighters

Fred Hood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Though I have always felt that the Tigresses could have used 50 or so
400 ton SBDs each rather than their 300 heavy fighters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Along these lines, and in line with the Star Wars mention Fred
made earlier:

The Death Star from Star Wars, according to West End Games'
_Death Star Technical Manual_, carries a flotilla of _Strike Cruisers_
in addition to it's hundred or so T.I.E. fighter wings. Not to mention
some pretty big transport ships.

I kind of like the idea of carrying gunboat flotillas aboard these
really big dreadnaughts, give them a real Space Control capability.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:42:34 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Underwater fire combat

Here's something for the gearhead/physicist types on the list:

During preparation of an adventure for a Con, I began to think about underwater
combat, as a lot of the adventure will take place under water.

How does the different Traveller weapons perform under water?

Let's assume for the purpose of this investigation that all weapons are built
sturdily and capable of tolerating water (i.e. electronics will not be damaged,
etc.)

Slug throwers powered by chemical explosions: I should think that it would be
possible to construct such a weapon in a way that the gunpowder does not get
wet, but apart from that, would it be able to fire? Or does the explosion still
need air? Even if it can fire, I realize that speed of the bullet will drop
much faster than when shooting in air, but how much?

Gauss weapons: I suspect that these would work rather well under water,
although the needles would also loose speed rather rapidly.

Energy weapons: What happens when you fire a laser weapon under water? I would
think that the beam does not get very far, as the energy is absorbed by the
water; but how quickly does this happen? Will it heat up the water so much
that it could become harmful to the firer? Will it heat up so fast that an
explosion-like effect will be the result?

And what about plasma and fusion weapons? The plasma shouldn't get very far
through the water, but it's very hot. What happens? My feeling is that this
could get pretty messy.

Any comments and/or answers will be greatly appreciated.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:14:53 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Irridium

>Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>What's Iridium?
>
>I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
>pen points and bearings.  But, what is the symbolic meaning for it
>to be used in the Iridium Crown of the Third Imperium?
>
>
>DonM.
>- --

IMTU, it is the basis/backing of the imperial currency. It also used to be
used in jump drives, before the doped lanthanum coils/grids. The symbolism,
therefore, become "I'm so weathly I can WASTE the makings of Jump Drives."

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:29:35 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Serfdom

>the serfs, such as the right to take the virginity of all women in their
>feifdom
>in some cases.  But it is clearly distinct from slavery.  Serfs could
>always leave.
>
>Bloo
>
Sorry, but serfdom was a status of unfree person TIED TO THE LAND. They
could Not leave. At lest in feudal brittain and imperial russia. Yes, they
had some rights. THey could own properties other than "real properties"
(like horses, land, and buildings). They could determine, in some cases,
their local law enforcement. They could have and spend money. In order to
leave, they became outlaws until they had lived in a city for a year and a
day (brittain). If the property was sold, they were required to stay put,
unless they were household serfs (russia).

Serfs caught off the lands they were bound to could be whipped, tortured,
or even executed, depending upon time and place. sounds like it fairly well
fits the company store approach....

HOWEVER, at least IMTU, serfdom is safely ignored when it occurs on a
world, and is not extended off that world.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:41:20 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Justice

Bloo:

	Great minds think alike. IMTU, it works like so:

The local noble's feif is generally the starport. Any local crime could be
appealed to him. His court hears ALL imperial crimes occuring outside the
authorityy of the local world that are tried here. The Noble himself only
hears appeals; his magistrates (whom he appoints) here the trials.

He can bounce appeals up to the subsector duke. They cannot be taken that
far by the convicted individual lest they be nobles.

The Subsector Duke has a trial court for crimes against the imperium, and
for crimes by nobles. THe sector duke himself hears appeals from both his
court, and for appeals by nobles of lesser courts, and for appeals sent him
by a local noble.

At the Sector level, should a trial be needed, it shall be before the moot.
The Sector Duke hears appeals to subsector court ruleings, or nobles
appeals to judgements from any level.

The domain level works just like sector, only slower.

The final layer is the Imperial See, including the moot for trials and the
Emperor as final appeal.

IMOJ, IMTU, is the fact finding and Law Enforcement Bureacracy. Almost all
magistrates of Imperial (read noblemen's) courts are drawn from IMOJ. IMOJ
also has a magisterial system for Civil Servants of the Imperial Will (ie,
you work for the imperial government, in one of the bureacracies), outside
the normal noble chain. The CSMS has limited authority over non civil
servants. And can be appealed to the local subsector duke.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 16:25:06 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Underwater fire combat

On 08/11/98 at 10:42 PM,  "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk> said:

>Here's something for the gearhead/physicist types on the list:

>How does the different Traveller weapons perform under water?

>Let's assume for the purpose of this investigation that all weapons
>are built sturdily and capable of tolerating water (i.e. electronics
>will not be damaged, etc.)

>Slug throwers powered by chemical explosions: 

As for as firing, it's just like in space, they'll work just fine.
The range will be very short.  I think I remember reading that a 45
pistol slug would travel only 5 or 6 meters before losing most of
it's power.

>Gauss weapons: I suspect that these would work rather well under
>water, although the needles would also loose speed rather rapidly.

Well, assuming the electronics don't short.  The needles might
travel further than slugs, being more hydrodynamic, but they're also
lighter, so....?

>Energy weapons: What happens when you fire a laser weapon under
>water? 

Depends on the frequency.  Beams that would work best underwater
would be in the UV range, and might have to be specially designed
for underwater work.  Shorter range than in atmosphere and problems
with heating the surrounding water, certainly. 

>And what about plasma and fusion weapons? The plasma shouldn't get
>very far through the water, but it's very hot. What happens? My
>feeling is that this could get pretty messy.

A bad way to commit suicide.  I suspect the steam explosion around
the firer would be worse than anything that happens to the intended
target.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:52:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>> >            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]
>   $75???  I'm cleaning out the attic!

I was recently offered an option by my FLGS where they would sell my
Ringworld and Ringworld Companion, and I would get half the proceeds and a
discount in future.

The owner quoted selling a copy last GenCon UK at 140 GBP (ie $210 US) plus
40 GBP for the companion ($60).

I almost gave in to that one.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:56:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Warrant of Restoration

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about recently regarding
>Slavery.  Where exactly is this Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
>to it until it showed up here.

It's in M0 and is the charter for the third Imperium. I believe that Jeff
Zeitlin may be the guilty party - but that's a faded memory.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:01:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>As far as actual written laws go, I think the Romano-German tradition
>found in England, France, Germany, etc., is appropriate, where the laws
>are often brief and in general language, and the courts are not bound by
>precedent (Stare Decisis), as they are in the US (at least on paper).
>That gives a court freedom to decide the same situation differently in
>different cases.

IIRC UK law *is* precedent driven. At least, that's what faded memories of
'Law for Engineering Students' bring back.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:35:44 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Irridium

At 12:14 PM 8/11/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>>What's Iridium?
>>
>>I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
>>pen points and bearings.  But, what is the symbolic meaning for it
>>to be used in the Iridium Crown of the Third Imperium?
>>
>>
>>DonM.

This is of course just speculation on my part, but...

I always assumed the "Irridium Throne" concept was 'barrowed' from the fact
that the Emperor's Throne depicted by Michael Whelan on the cover of H.
Beam Piper's book "Empire" was made of a black metal and that the metal was
likely Irridium.

"Empire" (with the cover in question) was first published in May of 1981. I
don't know if this was before or after the first mention of the "Irridium
Throne" in Traveller, but it would be interesting to find out.

l8r,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:13:36 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: re: Warrant of Restoration

At 11:56 PM 8/11/1998 +0100, you wrote:
>It's in M0 and is the charter for the third Imperium. 
>I believe that Jeff
>Zeitlin may be the guilty party - but that's a faded memory.

Marc Miller asked one (or more) of the lists
about what would likely be on the Imperium's founding
document, which was followed by much commentary
about general points vs. specifics, and what
things wouldn't be in it because the were enacted later.

I suggested the title "Warrant of Restoration" to Marc,
and Jeff (I think -- fading here, too) did the
hard, messy part of putting the better suggestions into
ersatz officialese.

JB

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #734
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 11 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 735



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Feudal Technocracy
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Serfdom
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Traveller worlds
Re: Irridium
Re: Underwater fire combat
Re: Underwater fire combat
Re: Honor Harrington 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:49:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> 
>> Check out "Backus-Naur" notation. It's used for defining "syntax" when
>> designing programming languages. I've found that any well-written law
>> becomes *much* shorter and clearer when translated into it, and even
>> poorly written ones become clear (or at least the ambiguities jump out
>> at you). 
>
>         Oh good, then it won't just *seem* like the lawyers are speaking 
> another language, they actually will be!

It's actually no worse than diagramming sentences. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:50:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>> >> On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
>> >> In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
>> >> day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
>> >> that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
>> >> complaints sent to the IMOJ.
>> >>
>> >> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
>> >> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
>> >> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
>> >> they were "just doing my job").
>> >>
>> >
>> > There's FAR more local law enforcers than IMOJ clerks on any specific
>> > planet.  If the local government wants slavery, that clerk becomes a
>> > mushroom.
>>
>> You are assuming that the clerk is on world. That'd be
>> *extraordinarily* stupid of the Imperium. More likely he's at the
>> subsector capital.
>
> And just how does multiple parsecs of distance make him any less of a
> mushroom if the local world wants to keep their dirty little secret?

If he is located locally, he can be influence by the local culture, or
have various pressures placed upon him.

In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:57:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Feudal Technocracy

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
   
>> The key is making sure that the "lord" has duties to the serf, and that
>> failure to carry them out releases the serf. So if the crops are bad
>> due to a drought or some other thing beyond the serf's control, the
>> lord has to supply food from *his* reserves. If he doesn't, the serfs
>> can legitimately consider their "contract" null and void and leave for
>> a lord who could use more serfs (and there will usually be such
>> *somewhere*). 
>
>         This is actually a class of problems I've studied.  Economists 
> class them under Transaction Cost Economics or Agency Theory.  You have a 
> problem in defining when an adverse crop yield is the result of an 
> exogenous event (eg. drought) or through failure by one party or another 
> (eg. laziness).  Who gets to decide?  How does one allocate 
> responsibility?  Maybe there was a mild drought, but the serfs took this 
> as license to slack off and the resulting drop in crop yield was much 
> greater than it needed to be.  You can try to create a dizzingly complex 
> contract that specifies all this, but there will always be things you 
> can't anticipate and/or the need to adapt to changing circumstances will 
> exceed you ability to quickly write a new contract.  The only solution is 
> to align the incentives of the parties sufficiently well that they have 
> the same interests.  In the context of the above example, that means the 
> lord and serfs splitting the crop yield so that the serfs have an 
> incentive to work hard on the lord's land and the lord has an incentive 
> to provide the sort of capital improvements (irrigation ditches, etc.) 
> that will improve yields for everybody.  It's not perfect but it is, in 
> general, the best solution.

Using self-interest usually *is* the best solution. :-)
  
>> Honour was the big reason in most places *before* the Church got really
>> strong. If the lord didn't carry out his obligations to the serfs,
>> they'd quit carrying out their obligations to *him* and fade into the
>> forests. This tended to be *really* bad for the lord in question. 
>
>         I'm not sure how this would work in practice, either in a 
> Medieval or Futuristic context.  The serfs still have to eat.  I suppose 
> Medieval serfs could live off the bounty of the forest for a limited 
> time, but not indefinitely.  Technocratic serfs are likely living in 
> their liege's housing and using his TV cable system.  More likely they'd 
> just practice the sort of work slowdowns and "accidental" breakages that 
> you mentioned under indentured servitude.
>
>         I think the only way to make a feudal system work well, especially
> in a futuristic context, is to make Honor very important.  Ambiguous
> situations will still be subject to different interpretations, but if one
> party isn't seen by the public to be genuinely working toward the common
> good it will lose honor, making future dealings with *anyone* in that
> honor-bound society more difficult.  The economic models I mentioned above
> all assume that people practice "self-interest seeking with guile" meaning
> they are willing to lie and cheat as long as they can get away with it
> under the letter of the contract.  To the extent that a Feudal Technocracy
> is able to culturally eliminate such behavior, I think it will be a viable
> system.  An F-Tech gov't might even be desirable in the same way that a
> benevolent dictatorship is said to be the best form of government. 

Well, I think one key, *especially* in a technical society is to keep
the vassal/lord ratio fairly small. And to "diversify" somewhat. That
is, you have one relationship for your work, but a different one for
some other aspects of your life. This winds up somewhat resmbling
anarcho-syndicalism. And it means that if you terminate *one*
relationship , you have other aspects of your life unchanged to provide
a buffer.

The bit with keeping the vassal/lord ration small is that this makes
the relationship more personal. Which tends tomake honorable behavior
simpler.

Also, with technology, you can have fuedal "groups" interpenetrating.
Which helps spread the word about the "dishonorable".

One *big* item that comes with making "honor" important is that folks
who try to go by the *l;etter* of an agreement rather than the spirit
will get a bad rep in a hurry.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:07:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target a
>>> ship in space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers
>>> and laser sighting for this. they can be hit with anti radar
>>> missles with ease.

>> Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>> *optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of
>> a garbage can.

> That works well for things that they know are there already but doesn't take
> into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing they are
> tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a cosmonaut YEARS
> ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track and exactly
> where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and they just
> look it up when they want to go look for it.

The thing is, it's no different than finding comets. You just take
snapshots, and compare everything in the snapshot with your database.
New items and items that have moved in an unexpected way stick out like
a sore thumb. 

The electronics involved (a decent CCD image array, and a small
computer) cost maybe $2-5k *now*. They'll be minor added features on
any decent amatuer telescope in a couple of TLs. By TL12-15, the whole
package from telescope to data link will be cheaper than survielance
cameras are now.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:18:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> At 08:38 4/08/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>I'd love to see Honor confronted with Miles Vorkosigan (and vice-versa).
>
> I haven't a clue who would win, but I'd really, really prefer to be on
> Miles' side - he's so much better at keeping his people alive.

I think it's just a case of Miles not getting stuck in as many "no win"
situations as Honor. 

And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:

Fleet elements:
	Admiral Harrington's task force
	Dendarii Fleet
	a squadron of Dorsai

Ground elements:
	Falkenberg's Legion
	more Dorsai
	Dendarii mercenaries
	Hammer's Slammers


Anyone have other elements to add? 

ps. this is what you use to gently suggest to your players that just
*possibly* they've made a mistake. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:43:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

At 07:26 pm 8/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>>*optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size
of a
>>garbage can.
>>
>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
>
>That works well for things that they know are there already but
doesn't take
>into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing they
are
>tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a
cosmonaut YEARS
>ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track and
exactly
>where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and they
just
>look it up when they want to go look for it.

	Although they don't know *exactly where it is, or there'd be no need
to track it.  Points up the difference between search and track ...
if you know where an object on a ballistic trajectory was yesterday,
you just need to find out how much it's moved today. Incidentally,
how well do these tracking telescopes work in daylight? What if I'm
say on the sunlit side of the planet during my assault ...?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:25:31 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington
>
>And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
>
>Fleet elements:
> Admiral Harrington's task force
> Dendarii Fleet
> a squadron of Dorsai
>
>Ground elements:
> Falkenberg's Legion
> more Dorsai
> Dendarii mercenaries
> Hammer's Slammers
>
>
>Anyone have other elements to add?
>
>ps. this is what you use to gently suggest to your players that just
>*possibly* they've made a mistake. :-)


Kimball Kinnison and a ship full of Rigillians as Command and Control?
(sorry if the spelling is off it's been years since I read the Lensmen, but
I still remember the Grand Fleet comabt scenes)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:32:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> >> On the other hand, the Imperium can set "standards" for the local laws.
> >> >> In which case, there are bureaucrats in the IMOJ who spend their entire
> >> >> day going over the reports of arrests and trials under the local laws
> >> >> that are Imperially mandated. And cross-checking with news items and
> >> >> complaints sent to the IMOJ.
> >> >>
> >> >> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
> >> >> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
> >> >> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
> >> >> they were "just doing my job").
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > There's FAR more local law enforcers than IMOJ clerks on any specific
> >> > planet.  If the local government wants slavery, that clerk becomes a
> >> > mushroom.
> >>
> >> You are assuming that the clerk is on world. That'd be
> >> *extraordinarily* stupid of the Imperium. More likely he's at the
> >> subsector capital.
> >
> > And just how does multiple parsecs of distance make him any less of a
> > mushroom if the local world wants to keep their dirty little secret?
>
> If he is located locally, he can be influence by the local culture, or
> have various pressures placed upon him.
>
> In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
> your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.

I think you missed my point.
Mushroom:  Kept in the dark and fed lots of sh*t.

He's certainly not psychic, so if your planetary government doesn't mention
anything about slavery, how's he supposed to find out?  With the clerk offworld,
you don't have as big a likelihood of a slave escaping to rat you out (since
slaves don't generally have access to ships).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:12:13 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

At 05:07 pm 8/11/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
>>
>>>In mail you write:
>>>
>>>> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target
a
>>>> ship in space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers
>>>> and laser sighting for this. they can be hit with anti radar
>>>> missles with ease.
>
>>> Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches*
across
>>> *optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size
of
>>> a garbage can.
>
>> That works well for things that they know are there already but
doesn't take
>> into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing they
are
>> tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a
cosmonaut YEARS
>> ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track
and exactly
>> where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and
they just
>> look it up when they want to go look for it.
>
>The thing is, it's no different than finding comets. You just take
>snapshots, and compare everything in the snapshot with your
database.
>New items and items that have moved in an unexpected way stick out
like
>a sore thumb. 

	And this takes a while ... time you may not have when Darth Vader is
pasting all your surface installations?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:49:41 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

SD Mooney wrote:

> IIRC UK law *is* precedent driven. At least, that's what faded
> memories of
> 'Law for Engineering Students' bring back.

True until the 1960s.  There was an adminitrative judical rule (the
exact name of the law escapes me) that became effective in 1966, IIRC.
It allows the UK courts to diverge from precedent.  I don't know enough
about the subsequent application except in what I have seen in UK
Copyright decisions, but at least on paper, the UK courts are no longer
bound by precedent (although there are now a great many overlapping
considerations with EU (or EC?) involved areas of litigation.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:53:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Serfdom

William F. Hostman wrote:

> Sorry, but serfdom was a status of unfree person TIED TO THE LAND.

Well, of course when we say serf, we aren't specifying English, French,
Norman, Saxon, Brittany, Lorraine, the states of modern Germany,  etc.,
etc.  What you say is true in some times in some places, but not in all
times in all places.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:01:46 +1000
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:
>Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>*optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of a
>garbage can.
>
>Add in a fiber optic comm grid, and it's gonna be *really* hard to
>prevent tracking. Especially when you can take *amateur* grade
>telescopes and synthesize some damn good tracking data.
>
>Scopes that good or better will be on the local Internet equivalent and
>more common than cameras are on the current internet. Normally, they'd
>be used for things like tracking comets (or shipping!) by local citizens.
>In time of war, they'd be like the "coast watch" stations the Aussie
>had all over the place.
Sorry, this just doesn't work. To begin with; the space junk tracked by
NORAD Spacewatch is mostly
in LEO which is why it can be tracked by such small optical telescopes. The
bits of upper stages,
 dead satellites and so on are generally bright optically, and as they spin
or even just orbit they
 present different facets to the sun. Which all adds up to make them easy
to spot.

Tracking a warship which has non-reflective black surfaces as it comes in
from 100 AU is an
 entirely different matter. To get a targeting solution would require
miliradian accuracy - something
small telescopes aren't capable of.

Even ignoring the above - difficulties - with optical tracking systems,
would you REALLY expect
a commander to rely on a system that provides *at best* one-third coverage
on any world with
an atmosphere? For practical purposes the atmospheric dispersion of light
will make telescopic
 tracking systems useless during periods of daylight (which is 2/3rds of
the planetary revolution period).
In short, you can't use telescopes during the day.

Reminds me of those WWII films where the green fighter pilot screams:
     "Aaargh!  They're attacking out of the sun!"

Of course, you could hide your (larger) telescopes on asteroids or small
satellites - but this just
 gives fleets something to shoot at while coming insystem. Besides, they
couldn't provide
secure firing solutions to your meson canons unless THEY were also close by
in the belt.
Hey, maybe  that could be a useful role for your fighters - ferreting out
camouflaged observation
 posts and meson canons in asteroid fields. Hmm.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:45:19 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller worlds

At 11:06 AM 8/11/1998 +0100, tc wrote:
>
>Is anyone able to provide a sector and hex location for any of the
>following (as well as a reference as to how you know):
>
>Essex
>Hinterworlds.  Mentioned in Challenge 48/50/51 'Behind Blue Eyes 1-3'

Essex is the sister world to Riies (0524 Nullia/Hinterworlds)

>Giettaciin
>Traveller Chronicle 8, 'Tsuga Orbital'
>
>Githiaski
>"Githiaski/Dartho 0806 on the fringe of the Lesser Rift" if that helps.
>Mentioned in JTAS 16, 'Contact: The Githiaskio'

I don't remember whether I read it somewhere or whether I looked till I
found a world that fit, but I have it marked as Antares 2406)

>Melantris
>Old Expanses.  JTAS 24, 'The Dynchia'

Thanks to the excellent Hinterworlds supplement by Rob Caswell and Karl
Johnson, the Dynchia no longer exist in known space officially (except for
their occasional assault vehicle showing up).  They did not use the article
from JTAS 24 when preparing the Hinterworlds for Challenge 39.  The Dynchia
Comitia became the 'Council of Leh Perash' in the Hinterworlds  supplement.
 As it mentions in the article on the Dynchia, the Atlas of the Imperium
was not consulted when writing the article, and neither was the K'kree
Alien Module, which gave the correct names for Hinterworlds and Leonidae
(Margin and Melande in the Dynchia article).  I just wish that Peter
Rasmussen had checked these two sources for names and other info, because I
think the Dynchia was one of the best written and useful of all of the
Contact series in JTAS.

>Mikkadhir
>Challenge 75, 'The Long Fall Club'
>
>Stataorlai
>Supposedly in the Kyaenkha subsector of Dark Nebula sector but not in the
>_Solomani and Aslan_ version that I can see.  JTAS 20, 'Raid on Stataorlai'
>
>Vrirhlanz
>Vargr Extents, JTAS 22, 'Contact: The Hlanssai'
>
>
>
>
>I have about 20 other worlds too, but I'm reasonably convinced these were
>not located anywhere specific.  If anyone wants to see these and have a go
>at locating them, contact me and I'll send the list.  (Early JTAS articles
>often referred to a world as 'in the Spinward Marches' even if it's not
>appeared on any sector map that I've ever seen.  Lorelei, JTAS 21,
>'Homesteader's Stand' seems to be an example of this.)
>
> It is possible that some of the above are the same, but as they have
>little location info, I thought it worth a shot.
>
>
>Many thanks and good hunting.  I should say that I've had a fair crack at
>trying to find them homes but I've done hundreds of worlds and my eyes may
>be swimming!
>
>tc
> 

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:23:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Irridium

In mail you write:

>>Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>>What's Iridium?
>>
>>I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
>>pen points and bearings.

Iridium *dust* may be black. But in bulk form, it looks silvery.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:25:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater fire combat

In mail you write:

> Here's something for the gearhead/physicist types on the list:
>
> During preparation of an adventure for a Con, I began to think about 
> underwater combat, as a lot of the adventure will take place under water.
>
> How does the different Traveller weapons perform under water?
>
> Let's assume for the purpose of this investigation that all weapons are 
> built sturdily and capable of tolerating water (i.e. electronics will not be 
> damaged, etc.)
>
> Slug throwers powered by chemical explosions: I should think that it
> would be possible to construct such a weapon in a way that the
> gunpowder does not get wet, but apart from that, would it be able to
> fire? Or does the explosion still need air?

Cartridges are *already* airtight and water tight. You'd have tio go
fairly deep before you had to worry about water getting to the powder.
There's neither space not time for air to get into a cartidge *during*
firing. The reaction is entirely self contained.

So common firearms will work in anything from vacuum to underwater. 

> Energy weapons: What happens when you fire a laser weapon under water? I 
> would think that the beam does not get very far, as the energy is absorbed 
> by the water; but how quickly does this happen? Will it heat up the water so 
> much that it could become harm
> ful to the firer? Will it heat up so fast that an explosion-like effect will 
> be the result?

If it's powerful enough to actually *damage* a person, firing it
underwater will result in a steam explosion at the "muzzle".

> And what about plasma and fusion weapons? The plasma shouldn't get very far 
> through the water, but it's very hot. What happens? My feeling is that this 
> could get pretty messy.

It'd be fatal to the firer.

For *any* sort of energy weapon, all the energy is going to get dumped
into the water within a meter or so of the muzzle. And that superheated
water/steam is *not* going to be healthy to be around. 

You also don't want to use grenades. The concussion will be *nasty*.

Ultrasound based weapons *may work. But you are basicly stuck with
short range projectile weapons and *trying* to use melee weapons. For
long range, it's torpedoes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:05:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Underwater fire combat

>Slug throwers powered by chemical explosions: I should think that it would
be possible to construct such a weapon in a way that the gunpowder does not
get wet, but apart from that, would it be able to fire? Or does the
explosion still need air? Even if it can fire, I realize that speed of the
bullet will drop much faster than when shooting in air, but how much?

  I'm not sure about limits here, but explosively propelled rounds may very
well have _serious_ problems with chamber pressures if there's water in the
barrel. OTOH, an ARL (/Gyrojet) shell might work OK, especially if the load
is chemical explosive rather than solid shot. I have a horrid suspicion that
this was probably covered in detail for GDW's Merc: 2000 game, although I
would not recommend trying the Twilight: 2000 list for help.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:44:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington 

> >And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
> >
> >Fleet elements:
> > Admiral Harrington's task force
> > Dendarii Fleet
> > a squadron of Dorsai
> >
> >Ground elements:
> > Falkenberg's Legion
> > more Dorsai
> > Dendarii mercenaries
> > Hammer's Slammers
> >
> >
> >Anyone have other elements to add?
> >
> >ps. this is what you use to gently suggest to your players that just
> >*possibly* they've made a mistake. :-)
> 
> 
> Kimball Kinnison and a ship full of Rigillians as Command and Control?
> (sorry if the spelling is off it's been years since I read the Lensmen, but
> I still remember the Grand Fleet comabt scenes)

How bout the Petit Harriers?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #735
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 736



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[CAtN] Shoppin finally!
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Irridium
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Titan Games Preview
Underwater combat
re: Traveller Worlds
Re: Imperial justice and Local justice
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Underwater combat
re:Islands Cluster Routes
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Planetary Assault
Re: Honor Harrington
Galactic v2.4 (come & get it)
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:48:35 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: [CAtN] Shoppin finally!

>OOC: Well, I *was* expecting to meet this mysterious guy in the bar,
>who'd say something along the lines of "Hmm....I have been waching
>you for a while now, and I have a mission for you which will result
>in untold wealth and a magic lamp...." </munchkin>

OOC:  Doh, shoulda told me..  ;P  No magic for you!

>>Turning to Hawkes, he asks, "What street did the waitress say the
>>shops were on?"

>"I think she said Kosco Street or something. Excuse me, my mouth
>tastes of petrochemical." He gimaces, and continues "Let's ask the
>cabbie if he's ever heard of it."

Ung grins, "But good petrochemical though...  What's all supposted to be on
Kosco street?"

>"Okay."  Jime says waving at a cab and leaning in to speak to the
>cabbie, "We're looking for some shops, supposed to be on Kosco
>Street...or something like that?  Supposed to be in the city?"

Ungrrgh
CAtN

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:06:49 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:16:55 -0400, SD Mooney
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

>Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about recently regarding
>>Slavery.  Where exactly is this Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
>>to it until it showed up here.

>It's in M0 and is the charter for the third Imperium. I believe that Jeff
>Zeitlin may be the guilty party - but that's a faded memory.

Guilty, as charged - but not remorseful... :)


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:33:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> At 07:26 pm 8/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>         Although they don't know *exactly where it is, or there'd be no need
> to track it.  Points up the difference between search and track ...
> if you know where an object on a ballistic trajectory was yesterday,
> you just need to find out how much it's moved today. Incidentally,
> how well do these tracking telescopes work in daylight? What if I'm
> say on the sunlit side of the planet during my assault ...?

Depends. If the ships are using HEPlar, they'll do pretty well. :-)

I also have to wonder about passive radio frequency tracking.

And it just occured to me that even in daylight, firing a weapon at the
ground (other than meson weapons) will show up pretty well too.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:37:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> At 05:07 pm 8/11/98 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
>>>
>>>>In mail you write:
>>>>
>>>>> Please explain to my how a forward observer will spot and target
> a
>>>>> ship in space for the mason cannons? you still need radar towers
>>>>> and laser sighting for this. they can be hit with anti radar
>>>>> missles with ease.
>>
>>>> Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches*
> across
>>>> *optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size
> of
>>>> a garbage can.
>>
>>> That works well for things that they know are there already but
> doesn't take
>>> into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing they
> are
>>> tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a
> cosmonaut YEARS
>>> ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track
> and exactly
>>> where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and
> they just
>>> look it up when they want to go look for it.
>>
>>The thing is, it's no different than finding comets. You just take
2>>snapshots, and compare everything in the snapshot with your
> database.
>>New items and items that have moved in an unexpected way stick out
> like
>>a sore thumb. 
>
>         And this takes a while ... time you may not have when Darth Vader is
> pasting all your surface installations?

Remember, we are talking about *millions* of these scopes. Therefore
comparing the snapshots from several scopes gves you an *instant*
position fix. 

And they are *civilian* gear, they just switch from tracking comets and
spacraft as a hobby during peacetime to being civilian observers during
wartime. 

To take them out, you'll have to raze the cities. Not a good thing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:42:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> In mail you write:
>>Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>>*optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of a
>>garbage can.
>>
>>Add in a fiber optic comm grid, and it's gonna be *really* hard to
>>prevent tracking. Especially when you can take *amateur* grade
>>telescopes and synthesize some damn good tracking data.
>>
>>Scopes that good or better will be on the local Internet equivalent and
>>more common than cameras are on the current internet. Normally, they'd
>>be used for things like tracking comets (or shipping!) by local citizens.
>>In time of war, they'd be like the "coast watch" stations the Aussie
>>had all over the place.

> Sorry, this just doesn't work. To begin with; the space junk tracked
> by NORAD Spacewatch is mostly in LEO which is why it can be tracked
> by such small optical telescopes. The bits of upper stages, dead
> satellites and so on are generally bright optically, and as they spin
> or even just orbit they present different facets to the sun. Which
> all adds up to make them easy to spot.

> Tracking a warship which has non-reflective black surfaces as it
> comes in from 100 AU is an entirely different matter. To get a
> targeting solution would require miliradian accuracy - something
> small telescopes aren't capable of.

We weren't talking about racking ships that far out. We were talking
about target aquistion for deep meson sites, primarily against the
ships in orbit of the planet which are tyrying to find said meson site.

> Even ignoring the above - difficulties - with optical tracking
> systems, would you REALLY expect a commander to rely on a system that
> provides *at best* one-third coverage on any world with an
> atmosphere?  For practical purposes the atmospheric dispersion of
> light will make telescopic tracking systems useless during periods of
> daylight (which is 2/3rds of the planetary revolution period).  In
> short, you can't use telescopes during the day.

As a backup, *passive* system for a series of deep meson sites, it
works just fine. It restricts the enemy's movements *severely*. They
can't put anything in an orbit that is visible from nightside without
risking fire from the meson sites. 

As others have noted, active sensors won't last long once the enemy is
in orbit. But passive optical and IR systems can at seriously
inconvenience the enemy while remaining hard to take out.

Passive RF tends to require antennas large enough to be easily spotted,
but I wouldn't even rule out those. Is it possible to create sensors
that can record EM fluctuations well enough to synthesize the reading
from a bunch of them into waveform info (sort of the inverse of a
phased array radar). 

If it is, then you can scatter a *lot* of those sensors around (say one
on every telephone pole equivalent) and reconstruct the waveform of any
radio opr radio signals sufficiently well to have at least a *rough*
idea of where to shoot.

This sort of thing isn't all that different from an attack sub relying
on *passive* sonar. Sure, it takes time and luck to localize the
target, but you can do so *without* revealing yourself to *their*
sonar. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:40:52 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Irridium

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Sanders wrote:
> This is of course just speculation on my part, but...
> 
> I always assumed the "Irridium Throne" concept was 'barrowed' from the fact
> that the Emperor's Throne depicted by Michael Whelan on the cover of H.
> Beam Piper's book "Empire" was made of a black metal and that the metal was
> likely Irridium.

I am not sure about this, but I think I remember a reference to 'Iridium
throne' in a sci-fi book earlier than Traveller. 
'Foundation' (or some sequel) springs to mind, but it has been some time
since I last read them.
At least 'Emperor Cleon' is from Foundation books... 

- --
Mikko Parviainen
 IMTU tc+ tm++ tn+ ru+ ge++ 3i+ jt-- jd++ pi au st- ls kk hi++ dr++ as+
va+ so- zh+ da++ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:16:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
...
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
...
>> >> >> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push for an
>> >> >> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
>> >> >> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
>> >> >> they were "just doing my job").
...
>> In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
>> your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.
>
>I think you missed my point.
>Mushroom:  Kept in the dark and fed lots of sh*t.

  I suspect that most of us got that one, although its' accuracy is highly
debatable. Human Intelligence is unreliable and inadequate for military
purposes, but almost ideal for law enforcement looking for subjects worthy
of detailed investigation (unless you have a fairly cynical view of the
future of telecommunications and eavesdropping).

>He's certainly not psychic, so if your planetary government doesn't mention
>anything about slavery, how's he supposed to find out?  With the clerk
offworld,
>you don't have as big a likelihood of a slave escaping to rat you out (since
>slaves don't generally have access to ships).

  Wouldn't visitors have access to ships? Like maybe visiting merchants,
tourists, or Imperial personnel of various sorts? Unless you've got a
totalitarian hermit state all it takes is one person who has a problem
with your social system to report it to make your situation untenable.
They might ignore the first 500 rumours, they might not. This also supposes
that not a single local dislikes the situation, including immigrants and
off-world personnel (businessmen, Imperial agents, TAS/TNS staff).

  One has to wonder if the local nobility dare to send their children off-
world, even for Imperial service. What might someone who's spent 20 years
in Imperial service say about effective slavery when they come home and
take a fresh look at things?

  If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're going
to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly if
they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").

  The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
in making examples of people (or peoples).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:47:32 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview

>The owner quoted selling a copy last GenCon UK at 140 GBP (ie $210 US) plus
>40 GBP for the companion ($60).

Wow! Is the offer still open? I remember seeing a copy in a used bookstore
in Canada.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:43:07 +1000
From: Peter Grining <grining@webnet.com.au>
Subject: Underwater combat

Regarding slug throwers underwater, I remember reading somewhere about
firearms having problems with exploding barrels. I could be wrong but water
doesn't compress too well so the gas has no where to go. Boom!!!!!! I await
replies with due dread.

A couple of unusual current world weapons for underwater combat.

Russian Shkval rocket torpedo.
The first model came out in 1977. It is a cone-shaped rocket torpedo
developed by the Russians to combat superior. Basically the Russians
expected to be ambushed by quieter Western subs. The first indication a
Russian sub driver would get is the noise of approaching Western torpedoes.
The Shkval would be fired at bearing only launch and use a nuclear warhead
to allow for aiming errors. Performance is 200 knots to 12000 yards.
Follow-on designs offer conventional warheads with slow speed acoustic
search at 60 knots followed by a 300 knot attack speed. This is a submarine
or SDB weapon. I'd imagine by Traveller times some form of common missile
for space and water combat would exist, especially for SDB.

Italian A202 bazooka fired torpedo
Ordered in 1996 for Italian navy special forces. A 16 kilogram mini-torpedo
fired from a bazooka (I think the system is called Medusa). The warhead is
5 kg, speed is 18 knots for 3 minutes. Useful for attacking targets without
having to swim up to them. Also handy to avoid enemy dolphin-type sentries.
Imagine a Medusa firing a Shkval!

Lastly the US Navy is studying the use of directed sound waves to destroy
incoming torpedoes.

Peter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:31:44 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: Traveller Worlds

Many thanks to those who responded to this (Marc, Jimmy, Edward).

With your help I've now located four of the worlds I was struggling with
and am happy to consign the rest to 'made up for the article' bin!

For those who were interested, the locations are:


Essex (in the Riies system):
Hinterworlds 0524

Doh!  I knew this of course, just testing.  (A case of 'wood for the trees'
 if ever there was one).

Githiaski
Antares 2406

Jadg
Lishun 2307

Melantris
Leonidae 0633



Thanks again for the help.  (I've placed you in the acknowledgements!)

tc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:21:55 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial justice and Local justice

Joe Pettit writes:

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If he is located locally, he can be influence by the local culture, or
>>have various pressures placed upon him.
>>
>>In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
>>your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.
> 
>I think you missed my point.
>Mushroom:  Kept in the dark and fed lots of sh*t.
> 
>He's certainly not psychic, so if your planetary government doesn't mention
>anything about slavery, how's he supposed to find out?  With the clerk
>offworld, you don't have as big a likelihood of a slave escaping to rat you
>out (since slaves don't generally have access to ships).

IMTU the MoJ agents are an elite force; that mitigates against the chance
of bribing one (though it does happen, of course). Think of a cross between
a Federal Marshal and a Texas Ranger. The agents are chronically overworked
and usually work singly and in pairs with at least one agent on any world
with a population over a few hundred - more on high-population worlds, of
course. Agents are required to file reports regularily. Each subsector also
has a few MoJ teams: 6-8 highly experienced agents working together. If an
agent goes missing. a full team goes looking for him (And if they go missing
too, the next step is a Special Investigator armed with an Imperial Warrant
and backed by a borrowed IN task force). It is generally considered bad
luck to kill a MoJ agent...

I've been toying with the idea of running a campaign where the players are
the members of such a MoJ team.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:01:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
> 
> Fleet elements:
>         Admiral Harrington's task force
>         Dendarii Fleet
>         a squadron of Dorsai
> 
> Ground elements:
>         Falkenberg's Legion
>         more Dorsai
>         Dendarii mercenaries
>         Hammer's Slammers
> 
> Anyone have other elements to add?
> 

Retief whispering sweetly in one of the PC's ears, and Dominic Flandry
whispering in the other.

In those immortal words: "We're cheet-os man!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:10:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

Peter Grining wrote:

> Russian Shkval rocket torpedo.
> The Shkval would be fired at bearing only launch and use a nuclear warhead
> to allow for aiming errors. Performance is 200 knots to 12000 yards.
[Snip]
> Italian A202 bazooka fired torpedo
> Ordered in 1996 for Italian navy special forces. A 16 kilogram mini-torpedo
> fired from a bazooka (I think the system is called Medusa). The warhead is
> 5 kg, speed is 18 knots for 3 minutes. Useful for attacking targets without
> having to swim up to them. Also handy to avoid enemy dolphin-type sentries.
> Imagine a Medusa firing a Shkval!

OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to mind? Just how
far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast anyhow?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:01:31 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:Islands Cluster Routes

>Has Reft Sector (the sector containing the Islands Cluster from
>Trillion Credit Squadron) been detailed in Canon yet?
The connections to the Island Clusters are in TNE's "Regency Sourcebook".
By the period shown (1200), the Regency has established a couple of free-space
refuelling/"calibration points" to reduce the travel to Jump-5 or so (though
it's still a haul.)

>If their radio astronomy was up to it, they may have recieved or even
>sent messages to the Imperium beyond the Rift - 30 years
>one-way transmission time or more.

They probably didn't have radio communication with the Imperium. A favourite
TML conspiracy theory is that the ESA long-range colonization mission was 
sent because the ESA had some hints of the existence of the Vilani
(crashed Vilani scoutship at Roswell for the extreme conspiracy types, 
interferometer and radio observations of Barnard's star for the non-conspiracy
types) and was trying to send out a branch of Terran humanity far enough to
be safe if Terra got invaded.  That explains why they picked such distant
and isolated stars. The colonists might have historical records telling them
to avoid communication...and would have been *really* unhappy when the
Imperium arrived.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:08:44 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

>>> Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>>> *optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of
>>> a garbage can.

>> That works well for things that they know are there already but doesn't take
>> into account what search procedures are in place.

>The electronics involved (a decent CCD image array, and a small
>computer) cost maybe $2-5k *now*. They'll be minor added features on
>any decent amatuer telescope in a couple of TLs. By TL12-15, the whole
>package from telescope to data link will be cheaper than survielance
>cameras are now.

I believe most NORAD detection of new debris (which generally works down
to about 10cm diameter) is done via radar, not visible-light, though i coudl
be wrong. 

A 1-m telescope can detect a Military Black warship out to perhaps 50,000 km.
(It's TL-12 equivalent would be about 30cm in diameter and weigh about 100kg.) 
That's not the same as being able to provide a fire control solution good enough
to fire a meson weapon, though - it could probably only do fire-control quality
tracking out to 500 km or less, which is somewhat inadequate.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:14:22 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault

>Incidentally,
>how well do these tracking telescopes work in daylight? What if I'm
>say on the sunlit side of the planet during my assault ...?

I forgot about that. Combined with reduced IR sensitivity (warm telescope
and warm sky), it would require quite large ground-based passive sensors - 
maybe a PEMS-15 - to hit a warship that was ~15,000 km out on the daylight
side. Sensors that big are easy to find and destroy. A PEMS-13 - which is 
small enough to hide - could be used for initial detection, and the 
defenders would then have to depend on active sensors - lots of cheap
expendable LIDARs and radards - for fire control. There would be an active
dual to pick off these LIDARs as they light up, before they can get a solution
for the deep meson sites.

The other important sensors would be orbital - a PEMS-12.5 or 13 in a 
satellite would be enough for fire control. Most developed worlds would
probably have dozens or hundreds of little fire control sensors hidden on 
apparently-junk satellites. And, as previously noted, if they had a moon,
they'd carpet it with cheap optical/IR sensors.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:16:20 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

At 05:18 PM 8/11/98 PST, you wrote:

>And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
<snip>

>Anyone have other elements to add? 

Fleet Intelligence Officer: Dominic Flandry

>ps. this is what you use to gently suggest to your players that just
>*possibly* they've made a mistake. :-)

"It has weapons mounts bigger than your ship."  has always worked for me.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Galactic v2.4 (come & get it)

Announcing Galactic version 2.4:

Now available at http://members.aol.com/jimvassila/progs.htm
Also available from Bryan's TML-CDROM (email kagekiha@aol.com)

Well, it doubled in size yet again, so I hope you have a really big
harddrive...

        PROGRAM NAME: "GALACTIC" [v2.4] {July 1997}
        GAME SYSTEM: Traveller/MegaTraveller
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos  (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: Sector Viewer/Generator
        SIZE: 6,309,999 Bytes
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
	      (but windows will also run dos-applications)
        COMMENTS: Allows user to randomly generate sectors, displays
	      the maps in VGA, translates the UWP code to English,
	      and keeps campaign notes in text files which can be
	      accessed directly from the map. The maps all mesh
	      seemlessly. Includes lots of official and non-official
              sectors. Even includes world mapping and star system
              mapping software. Note, if you're using pkunzip, then
              you must use the "-d" option when unzipping:

                  >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal24.zip    <<<<<<<<

If you have trouble getting Galactic, unzipping it, or whatever,
let me know. I'll be happy to see if I can help. Note that the
program is currently only available as one big zipfile. I'll look
into sectioning it into pieces for easier downloading in a little
while, or you can get it from Bryan's TML-CDROM (contact Bryan at
kagekiha@aol.com for ordering information).

For those who have been using version 2.3, here's some of the new
stuff:

  * Jeff Zeitlin (jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com) contributed the following six
    sectors: Amdukan, Antares, Arzul, Empty Quarter, Mendan, and Stars' End.
  * Rupert Boleyn contributed the Canopus Sector.
  * Roger Myhre contributed the Gvurrdon Sector.
  * Martin Rait contributed the Meshan Sector.
  * Chris Trash sent in several brief world descriptions for each of
    the worlds in Reft's New Islands & Old Islands subsectors.
  * Expanded notes on the Dagudashaag Sector (courtesy of Jae Campbell,
    Duncan Law-Green, The UK fanzine _Signal GK_ and members of HIWG)

New stuff for the TNE galaxy:

  * Data was obtained from Planet Navigator by Planet III Software for
    the Spinward Marches, Deneb, and Reft Sectors.
  * Rupert Boleyn contributed the Canopus Sector.
  * Roger Myhre contributed the Gvurrdon Sector.
  * Michael Koehne contributed the Gushemege Sector.
  * David Drazul a.k.a. DED (dedly@aol.com) contributed the Provence Sector.
  * Grant Sinclair contributed the Yiklerzdanzh Sector on behalf of
    HIWG Australia.
  * Idiot/Savant and Lewis Roberts contributed Alpha Leonis on behalf of
    the membership of the TNE-RCES mailing list.
  * Chris Griffen contributed the Trojan Reaches, Corridor and Vland
    Sectors, supplying a number of world writeups from the Regency
    Sourcebook and elsewhere.

And that's not all:

  * Andrew Vallance contributed an updated version of his Greater
    Magellanic Cloud galaxy along with his new Interstellar Wars
    galaxy covering the early wars between Terra and the Vilani.
  * History files convering the Traveller Universe and the Third
    Imperium by Clayton Bush.
  * Traveller News Service files courtesy of Marc Miller.

There are also new program features:

  * Added a galaxy map in between the main menu and sector map.
  * Jo Grant (jaymin@maths.tcd.ie) contributed a galaxy "dot" mapper.
  * Added archiving subprogram (I/X from galaxy menu or galaxy map).
  * Added world finder (F) to galaxy map.
  * Added flat-text sector file dumper (F) to the sector map.
  * Added a configuration option allowing white backgrounds to various
    maps (mainly for ease of printing).
  * Added UWP/WorldName display toggle (ctrl-u) to subsector map.
  * Created stand-alone conversion utility (conv23.exe) in the "convert"
    directory which you can use to convert Galactic v2.3 galaxies to
    Galactic v2.4 format (see convert\readme.txt).

Special thanks goes out to the Galactic Watchdogs who helped to keep me
on track. Thank you Bryan, Steve, Murray, TravelrTNE, and Tsykoduk. Also
many thanks to Jo Grant for lending numerous ideas as well as the
programming expertise to back them up. And a big thank you to all the
contributors including the members of the Galactic Mailing List.

           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@empirenet.com / jimvassila@aol.com
             ( )        http://members.aol.com/jimvassila
              U         San Bernardino, California

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:24:25 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

>steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
>>> >            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]
>>   $75???  I'm cleaning out the attic!
>

There were three (?) editions of D3eities nad Demigods (sometimes Legends
and Lore)

One had Cthulu and Nehwon (sp?) Mythos, one had just Nehwon, and the latest
had neither.  The Cthulu was only in the first printing(s).

When you get your out, check for Cthulu.  If its not there, put it back in
the attic for antoher 10 years or so, otherwise bounce over to
rec.games.rpg.marketplace and make a mint (assuming it is 'mint' condition).

Oh, and while you're in the attic, look for the series of AD&D modules
starting with G1, G2, and G3, D1-2, D3, and ending in Q1 "Queen of the
Demonweb Pits".  If you have them all (they were all sold seperately, or in
2-3 packages) and they are the original versions in very good+ condition,
you can get good money for them.  I thought I had them all, only to realize
I lent out Q1 when I was in college (like, 10 years ago) and never got it
back...grrr.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #736
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 737



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fighters & Planetary Assault
Cleaning the Closet...
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Imperial justice and Local justice
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Fighters & Planetary Assault

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:44:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Fighters & Planetary Assault

	I had another idea for uses of fighters and other patrol craft.  
One of the big arguments against them is that all a navy has to control 
is the 100-d limit of the mainworld.  Since for most worlds the 100-d 
limit is almost within weapons range of a ship in orbit, there's really 
no reason to have scouting vessels like fighters or gunboats.  I've 
agreed with this point of view until I started thinking about it in more 
detail.
	The problem is that an attacking fleet will very likely _not_ 
jump in right at the 100-d limit and start shooting because all of the 
ships in the fleet will be arriving at different times.  In a poorly 
executed jump, ships could be coming in over a two day time span.  Since 
having your fleet arrive on the battlefield in dribs and drabs invites 
defeat in detail, fleets will want to jump into a "rally" point somewhere 
outside the 100-d limit of the mainworld.  This represents an opportunity 
for the defender to keep his system well patrolled so that when advance 
elements of the enemy fleet start arriving they can be picked off before 
they can get organized.
	Since we have t-plates in Traveller again, I think gas giants 
will be more attractive places to begin an assault on the mainworld 
since they give the attacker a place to organize, refuel, and do some 
long-range sensor examination of the defender's forces.  A trip from GG 
to mainworld at 4-6G continous accel probably will not take more time 
than a micro-jump but will allow the attacker to continously monitor the 
situation on the mainworld and avoid the need to once again rally after 
the jump.  This makes battles in interplanetary space more likely and 
offers lots of exciting possibilities such as spreading missile 
"minefields" in the path of high-velocity attackers, "fast-pass" 
engagements as two high-velocity fleets pass through each other and then 
a long wait while they turn to match velocities or make another pass, etc.
	What do people think?

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:07:30 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cleaning the Closet...

Members:

I received a call from the local used book store guy.  Someone cleaned 
out their closet and had some Classic Traveller stuff they gave him.  I 
went to look at it yesterday.  Unfortunately (or fortunately for you) I 
have almost all that he had for sale.  So, I pass on the list to you.  I 
will be happy to pick up anything that you want and will send it to you 
for whatever the cost plus postage is.  

Everything was in very good condition.

"The List"

CT Books 4 and 5:  $4 each

Supplements 1,4, 6-12  $4 each

Adventure 1, Kinunir, $4

Journals 2, 5-16 (I might have missed #4 but not sure)  He's asking $6 
for each journal 2-10, and $5 for the journals numbered 11 and up.

"FCI Consumer Guide" from FASA (probably $5 or $6)

Let me know if you want anything, and I can get it this afternoon or
tomorrow.


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:20:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
> ...
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
> ...
>>> >> >> If they find a discrepancy or something suspicious, they'll push 
> for an
>>> >> >> investigation (after all, if they are right, it'll improve their
>>> >> >> chances for promotion, and even if they are wrong they can say that
>>> >> >> they were "just doing my job").
> ...
>>> In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
>>> your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.
>>
>>I think you missed my point.
>>Mushroom:  Kept in the dark and fed lots of sh*t.
>
>   I suspect that most of us got that one, although its' accuracy is highly
> debatable. Human Intelligence is unreliable and inadequate for military
> purposes, but almost ideal for law enforcement looking for subjects worthy
> of detailed investigation (unless you have a fairly cynical view of the
> future of telecommunications and eavesdropping).
>
>>He's certainly not psychic, so if your planetary government doesn't mention
>>anything about slavery, how's he supposed to find out?  With the clerk
> offworld,
>>you don't have as big a likelihood of a slave escaping to rat you out (since
>>slaves don't generally have access to ships).
>
>   Wouldn't visitors have access to ships? Like maybe visiting merchants,
> tourists, or Imperial personnel of various sorts? Unless you've got a
> totalitarian hermit state all it takes is one person who has a problem
> with your social system to report it to make your situation untenable.
> They might ignore the first 500 rumours, they might not. This also supposes
> that not a single local dislikes the situation, including immigrants and
> off-world personnel (businessmen, Imperial agents, TAS/TNS staff).
>
>   One has to wonder if the local nobility dare to send their children off-
> world, even for Imperial service. What might someone who's spent 20 years
> in Imperial service say about effective slavery when they come home and
> take a fresh look at things?
>
>   If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're going
> to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly if
> they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
> just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>
>   The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
> in making examples of people (or peoples).

And since any society that uses imprisonment *at all* has to make an
exception anti-slavery laws that allows involuntary servitude as a
punishment, it might be *really* tempting to sentence the examples to
"life at hard labor" on the sector hellhole's terraforming project or
some such.

Talk about "the punishment fitting the crime"!

BTW, it just occured to me that I don't recall anything that would
indicate that the Imperium has a prohibition on "cruel and unusual
punishment". And given the *variety* of societies involved, I'm not
sure it *could* have such. 

This opens up a whole 'nother set of ways to both discourage crimes and
to get across to players the "you're not in Kansas anymore" feeling.

"What happened to Charlie?! I thought they had him in custody for that
fight in the bar."

"They did. Since he started the fight and then broke one guy's arm and
knocked out a couple of some other guy's teeth, the judge sentenced him
to the same..."

Hey, with high TL medical treatment, it's a reasonable punishment.
They give you the same discomfort you gave out, then let you think
about it for a while before sending you off to a doctor. In the
spacer's case they saw no reason to waste their money treating him,
they just sent him back to his ship to be treated by the ship's doctor
(and to clue in his crewmates that they should read the fine print in
the Imperial encylopedia entry for the world)

Great way to hint that you *don't* want to be caught *starting* trouble
on that world. Especially since even an idiot can figure out what the
penalty for murder is... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:37:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
>> 
>> Fleet elements:
>>         Admiral Harrington's task force
>>         Dendarii Fleet
>>         a squadron of Dorsai
>> 
>> Ground elements:
>>         Falkenberg's Legion
>>         more Dorsai
>>         Dendarii mercenaries
>>         Hammer's Slammers
>> 
>> Anyone have other elements to add?

I'll note for the record that I don't think Kim Kinisson(sp) and the
Galactic patrol can be crammed into the "feel" of Traveller. I'm not
sure about the Petit Harriers, as the only story about them I'vbe read
was by David Drake, who by his own admission went off on a bit of a
tangent from the concept.

> Retief whispering sweetly in one of the PC's ears, and Dominic Flandry
> whispering in the other.

I suppose Commodore Grimes and his wife Sonya could be fit in there
somewhere (btw, in one of Chandler's books, Grimes and company meet
Flandry (with Anderson's permission)).

> In those immortal words: "We're cheet-os man!"

Not "Game over, man! Game Over!".

For a slightly less military situation, you could always find that your
"great trade opportunity" has yu up against a ship from "Solar Spice &
Liquors" (GMs choice whether it's Nick van Rijn himself, or David
Falkayn and crew)

And for the *personal* touch, we've got folks like Jason dinAlt, or
Slippery Jim diGriz (and family).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:46:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

In mail you write:

> Regarding slug throwers underwater, I remember reading somewhere about
> firearms having problems with exploding barrels. I could be wrong but water
> doesn't compress too well so the gas has no where to go. Boom!!!!!! I await
> replies with due dread.
>
> A couple of unusual current world weapons for underwater combat.
>
> Russian Shkval rocket torpedo.
> The first model came out in 1977. It is a cone-shaped rocket torpedo
> developed by the Russians to combat superior. Basically the Russians
> expected to be ambushed by quieter Western subs. The first indication a
> Russian sub driver would get is the noise of approaching Western torpedoes.
> The Shkval would be fired at bearing only launch and use a nuclear warhead
> to allow for aiming errors. Performance is 200 knots to 12000 yards.
> Follow-on designs offer conventional warheads with slow speed acoustic
> search at 60 knots followed by a 300 knot attack speed. This is a submarine
> or SDB weapon. I'd imagine by Traveller times some form of common missile
> for space and water combat would exist, especially for SDB.

No wonder US doctrine was to run the torpedoes out quietly on a *big*
dogleg. That way when you launch at the source of the highspeed run,
you aren't aiming anywhere *near* the actual sub that launched it.

BTW, TL differences can make for interesting situations. Say a
balkanized world is at about WWII TL. There's a war going on, with
convoys, wolfpacks, the whole bit. They've only recently been contacted
and little tech has gotten imported yet.

Now some helpful person imports a 688 class sub for one side. Here's
this "unguarded" convoy sailing along. And as the enemy subs approach
they all get knocked off with no warning and out of range. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:52:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

In mail you write:

> Peter Grining wrote:
>
>> Russian Shkval rocket torpedo.
>> The Shkval would be fired at bearing only launch and use a nuclear warhead
>> to allow for aiming errors. Performance is 200 knots to 12000 yards.
> [Snip]
>> Italian A202 bazooka fired torpedo
>> Ordered in 1996 for Italian navy special forces. A 16 kilogram mini-torpedo
>> fired from a bazooka (I think the system is called Medusa). The warhead is
>> 5 kg, speed is 18 knots for 3 minutes. Useful for attacking targets without
>> having to swim up to them. Also handy to avoid enemy dolphin-type sentries.
>> Imagine a Medusa firing a Shkval!
>
> OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to mind? Just how
> far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast anyhow?

Depends on the size of the blast, and depth of the blast (and gravity
of the planet).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:55:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial justice and Local justice

In mail you write:

> Joe Pettit writes:
>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If he is located locally, he can be influence by the local culture, or
>>>have various pressures placed upon him.
>>>
>>>In another system, you either bribe him, or you try to talk him over to
>>>your point of view, both of which are *very* dangerous.
>> 
>>I think you missed my point.
>>Mushroom:  Kept in the dark and fed lots of sh*t.
>> 
>>He's certainly not psychic, so if your planetary government doesn't mention
>>anything about slavery, how's he supposed to find out?  With the clerk
>>offworld, you don't have as big a likelihood of a slave escaping to rat you
>>out (since slaves don't generally have access to ships).
>
> IMTU the MoJ agents are an elite force; that mitigates against the chance
> of bribing one (though it does happen, of course). Think of a cross between
> a Federal Marshal and a Texas Ranger. The agents are chronically overworked
> and usually work singly and in pairs with at least one agent on any world
> with a population over a few hundred - more on high-population worlds, of
> course. Agents are required to file reports regularily. Each subsector also
> has a few MoJ teams: 6-8 highly experienced agents working together. If an
> agent goes missing. a full team goes looking for him (And if they go missing
> too, the next step is a Special Investigator armed with an Imperial Warrant
> and backed by a borrowed IN task force). It is generally considered bad
> luck to kill a MoJ agent...

The agents need a lot of backing from desk types. Heck, consider the
CIA, they need more folks to process data from their various sources
(including agents in place) than people to *gather* it. They've just
taken it a bit *too* far, with not enough people on the ground.

Also, the type of agents you are describing above are *not* the agents
I just described. They are "covert ops" rather than "intelligence". Two
*very* different jobs. Different enough that I agree with a suggestion
made some years back that we should take the covert ops types *out* of
the CIA (and a few other agencies) and lump them together in a
reincarnated OSS (Office of Strategic Services). 

Though I do note that it would appear that your agents aren't
*necessarily* covert. So the analogies are a bit strained.

> I've been toying with the idea of running a campaign where the players are
> the members of such a MoJ team.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:14:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

>>>> Hardly. NORAD SpaceWatch tracks space junk down to *inches* across
>>>> *optically* with *one meter* telescopes. These are about the size of
>>>> a garbage can.
>
>>> That works well for things that they know are there already but
>>> doesn't take into account what search procedures are in place.

>>The electronics involved (a decent CCD image array, and a small
>>computer) cost maybe $2-5k *now*. They'll be minor added features on
>>any decent amatuer telescope in a couple of TLs. By TL12-15, the whole
>>package from telescope to data link will be cheaper than survielance
>>cameras are now.
>
> I believe most NORAD detection of new debris (which generally works down
> to about 10cm diameter) is done via radar, not visible-light, though i coudl
> be wrong. 

True enough, but they don't have to worry about the "debris" shooting
at their radars. :-)

> A 1-m telescope can detect a Military Black warship out to perhaps
> 50,000 km.  (It's TL-12 equivalent would be about 30cm in diameter
> and weigh about 100kg.)

Since when is 30 cm equivalent to 1 m? :-)
(I do know what you mean, but I'd say 50 cm to 1 m is a better idea
even at TL12)

> That's not the same as being able to provide a fire control solution
> good enough to fire a meson weapon, though - it could probably only
> do fire-control quality tracking out to 500 km or less, which is
> somewhat inadequate.

Don't you get any improvement from using dozens of scopes (all with
precisely known locations)? Especially spread out over hundreds of
miles? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:08:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> Two Thousand Worlds: I know pratically nothing about the K'kree except the
>     usual blurbs: we haven't had a sourcebook on them since Classic
> Traveller.
>
>     How DO they govern?  Do they care about their subject worlds at all,
> just
>     as long as they're vegan?  Do they have some Interstellar Society of
>     Vegetarians organized throughout Charted Space?  Have they sent
>     Green Missionaries  to every major spaceport?  How do they use
>     science: as a necessary plague like the Vilani?   Or do they only
>     care about social change, but are blase regarding tech?

I get the impression that their government is just modified and
extended herd dynamics. (Someone got their ethology right!)

So you have a herd/family as the basic unit. In such a unit (assuming
horselike ethology) there's the lead stallion, and a lead mare. The
lead mare provides the stability, whereas the lead stallion is likely
to get challenged by indepedent males wanting a herd of their own.

Groups of herds have their leads "fight" it out to determine a "lord".
The lords fight it out to determine the Steppelord. And the steppelords
of the various planets determine the ???? (I forget the term, it's the
ruler of K'kree space). 

Much of this is based on "dominance" (sort of like "attitude"). But
actual fighting will occur. And as I vaguely recall from what little I
have read on such things, herbivore dominance fights tend to get a
*lot* uglier, because once the challenge is given the normal
"submission" signals go out the window. 

This may be why the K'kree can't see any middle ground between "make
them vegetarians" and "exterminate them". 

Niven & Pournelle's "Footfall" deals with *some* of these issues, but
their model was *elephants* who have mixed sex herds. Horses (the
apparent model for the K'kree) don't tolerate adult males other than
the lead stallion (as I recall). So the rules are different. Such as
"submission" being a lot less common. Fights between stallions are
*bloody*, whereas fights between wolves for pack leader often result in
almost no injuries.

Gordon R. Dickson's earlier books made a lot of use of the idea of
alien cultures based around the "social rules" (ethology) of various
animals. One book had a society based on Bears. And then there was the
one that was essentially human society except that the prime rule for
behaviour wasn't "is this the right thing to do?" but "is this the
proper thing to do?" The consequences of that major difference are
*huge*. He also had a couple of books where the aliens merely used
existing *human* social systems. Just not the ones we are familiar with
from Western Europe *or* those of China and Japan. 

Anthro texts are *good* references for GMs trying to design races and
cultures. Ditto for the texts on animal societies. 

I ought to try seeing if it's possible to get what most agree is *the*
single most alien human culture on the planet to work in a
technological society. The basic "idea" is that once you are past
childhood, you trust *no one*. You assume that everyone is out to get
you. It's a *very* strange culture. Yet outsiders are treated well.
Since they so obiously *trust* other people, they are *obviously*
crazy, and being crazy, they are exempt from the rules and treated
decently. 

I think I can see them as a technical society. It'd take some
handwaving to get them from primitive society to technical one though.
Probably have to assume some "helpful" traders. 

I'm not sure that they *could* join the Imperium. But they probably
wouldn't object to being surrounded by it. And I have this feeling that
a lot of *freelance* covert ops types would be from there. There's no
way any organization would be trusted by them enough for them to join.
But with "adequate" safeguards they could pull off jobs for them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:33:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: K'kree thanks, servanthood

In mail you write:

>>First, thanks for the many responses on the
>>K'kree!  So the Centaur's hatred of carnivores
>>outweigh their hatred of change - an interesting
>>insight into their psychology.
>
> I don't think K'kree "hatred of change" would restrict their exploration or
> technical innovation. My understanding of the K'kree is that they are
> *socially* conservative and not *technologically* conservative. In
> MegaTraveller Journal 4, the K'kree take enormous risks and embrace things
> like genetic engineering of themselves in order to expand their influence.
> However, their social and military structure has remained unchanged for
> millenia.

See my other post. I suspect that much of the K'kree social structure
is based on "instinct" far more than with humans (though our societies
are more instinct based than many want to admit)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:09:29 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

At 02:24 PM 8/12/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>>steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> >            Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) [$75, VF]
>>>   $75???  I'm cleaning out the attic!
>>
>
>There were three (?) editions of D3eities nad Demigods (sometimes Legends
>and Lore)
>
>One had Cthulu and Nehwon (sp?) Mythos, one had just Nehwon, and the latest
>had neither.  The Cthulu was only in the first printing(s).
>
>When you get your out, check for Cthulu.  If its not there, put it back in
>the attic for antoher 10 years or so, otherwise bounce over to
>rec.games.rpg.marketplace and make a mint (assuming it is 'mint' condition).
>
The Melnibonean mythos was also yanked after the first printing.  Chaosium
had the rights to both Cthulu and Elric, and jumped all over TSR when they
published Dieties & Demigods.  TSR owned the rights to the Newhon (Fafhrd &
Gray Mouser) mythos, and published several supplements for it.  I never saw
a third edition printing without Newhon (Had gotten away fronm D&D by that
time).  The first edition of Dieties and Demigods is the only AD&D book I
still own, because it is valuable.

About Ringworld & Ringworld companion, if you know of anyone interested in
it I have both (especially at that price).  The box for Ringworld is torn a
little, and the dice are missing (like a gamer won't have dice), but
otherwise everything is there and in good condition, right down to the
registration card.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:18:29 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)


>>
>>         And this takes a while ... time you may not have when Darth Vader
is
>> pasting all your surface installations?
>
>Remember, we are talking about *millions* of these scopes. Therefore
>comparing the snapshots from several scopes gves you an *instant*
>position fix.
>
>And they are *civilian* gear, they just switch from tracking comets and
>spacraft as a hobby during peacetime to being civilian observers during
>wartime.
>
>To take them out, you'll have to raze the cities. Not a good thing.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


Leonard, who is coordinating this effort and what data transmission system
are they using to pump all this data into ONE dBase.  I would be willing to
bet that there are no more than 3 or 4 telescopes (at our technology level)
that are working the issue at the same time.  The delay between data being
received and then "analized" (spelling on purpose) is several days at best.
From what I can remember, the telescopes are looking at very specific points
in the sky and take a series of pictures. Then a few hours later they take
more pictures and run a "visual" comparison first and a computer generated
comparison some time later to help determine anomalies.
Given that, you have the next problem of lack of resources.  There just
aren't enough people or computers dedicated to this or any other
"intelligence" project to give timely input.  This has nothing to do with
the number of telescopes working it, I'll even concede that you could have
your million telescopes.  You could have collected all the intelligence that
was available and not see the results in some cases for years because the
amount of data is so overwhelming.  This probably would be true for even
10 - 15 telescopes.

Presently we are just discussing telescopes, consider radar, ir, low light,
laser transmission and a myriad of other "sources" for input to your dBase
and you can see where there might be an overwhelming amount of data just
dying to get into the right persons hands but unfortunately just don't get
noticed.  There are of course "triggers" assigned to specific conditions
that we hope will help us pull up truly relevant data but remember, these
were written into a program by (hopefully) gifted people.  You just can't
cover all contingencies and the amount of stuff that slips thru unnoticed is
staggering.  That brings us finally to the real problem, the human element.
After its all said and done it is left to a couple of people that have had
some extraordinary training (see programmers above too) but have been on the
project for years and seen countless false positives.  They just might miss
it even if they looked right at it.

Ships/asteroids/comets could come in from blind spots, and there are some,
to wreak havoc on us poor Solomanies.  IMNSHO, there is just as a good a
chance of not being seen as there is to being seen.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:24:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And for the *personal* touch, we've got folks like Jason dinAlt, or
> Slippery Jim diGriz (and family).
>

Oh lordy...I'd forgotten _all_ about Slippery Jim...

here I go again...

Eris...you are feeling sleepy...when I snap my fingers you will forget
you ever read this thread...

The _only_ thing worse than having players who read this list...is
having a GM that does ;-)


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:25:41 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fighters & Planetary Assault

At 15:44 12/08/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>	I had another idea for uses of fighters and other patrol craft.  
>One of the big arguments against them is that all a navy has to control 
>is the 100-d limit of the mainworld.  Since for most worlds the 100-d 
>limit is almost within weapons range of a ship in orbit, there's really 
>no reason to have scouting vessels like fighters or gunboats.  I've 
>agreed with this point of view until I started thinking about it in more 
>detail.
>	The problem is that an attacking fleet will very likely _not_ 
>jump in right at the 100-d limit and start shooting because all of the 
>ships in the fleet will be arriving at different times.  In a poorly 
>executed jump, ships could be coming in over a two day time span.  Since 
>having your fleet arrive on the battlefield in dribs and drabs invites 
>defeat in detail, fleets will want to jump into a "rally" point somewhere 
>outside the 100-d limit of the mainworld.  This represents an opportunity 
>for the defender to keep his system well patrolled so that when advance 
>elements of the enemy fleet start arriving they can be picked off before 
>they can get organized.
>	Since we have t-plates in Traveller again, I think gas giants 
>will be more attractive places to begin an assault on the mainworld 
>since they give the attacker a place to organize, refuel, and do some 
>long-range sensor examination of the defender's forces.  A trip from GG 
>to mainworld at 4-6G continous accel probably will not take more time 
>than a micro-jump but will allow the attacker to continously monitor the 
>situation on the mainworld and avoid the need to once again rally after 
>the jump.  This makes battles in interplanetary space more likely and 
>offers lots of exciting possibilities such as spreading missile 
>"minefields" in the path of high-velocity attackers, "fast-pass" 
>engagements as two high-velocity fleets pass through each other and then 
>a long wait while they turn to match velocities or make another pass, etc.
>	What do people think?

I did some calculations (when the last piracy disscussion came around) on
T-plate in system travel times, and got this chart for the average time
from Earth to Jupiter using T-plates for constant acceleration:

Time to Jupiter (with turn around)
Acc (G's) 1      2      3      4      5      6      10     20     30
Seconds   557960 394537 322138 278980 249527 227786 176442 124763 101869
Days      6.5d   4.6d   3.7d   3.2d   2.9d   2.6d   2.0d     1.4d   1.2d

As you can see even a free trader will take less time than a micro-jump
normally takes. In fact lokking at these times IMO an attacking fleet can't
afford to emerge closer than this, unless their commander is sure that he
has properly coordinated his fleets jump, because otherwise the defenders
could arrive before the last of his fleet did. This means that for those
little red dwarf systems an invader is going to be quite a long way from
anything in the system.

I've pretty much always assumed that this is how things would be done in a
T-plate universe, largely because I can't see how you can avoid producing a
thumping great gravity pulse when you emerge from jump. Besides IMTU a fair
chunk of the jump fuel is used as a 'jump bubble', and this also emerges
from jump with you, and is fairly hot so all in all hiding a jump emergence
is damned hard if there's anyone looking for you. This means that it is
essential to be far enough away from the defence that they can't get to you
before you can get it together. However looking at the travel times I think
that most GGs will be too close to the main world to be of much use. As I'm
not a beliver in fighters the patrols would normally be SDBs, which have
the adventage of maybe lasting a little longer and having a better
endurance. The other likely scout IMTU would be a Midu or equivilent, for
their more complete sensor suite, placed a long way out to extend the
defence's sensor reach.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #737
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 738



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Underwater combat
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Empty Quarter...
Re: Honor Harrington 
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98) 
Re: Empty Quarter... 
re:Fighters & Planetary Assault
Re: Galactic v2.4
Re: Imperial justice and Local justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 
Re: Facts not in evidence
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Honor Harrington

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:04:05 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

At 16:43 12/08/98 +1000, Peter wrote:
>Regarding slug throwers underwater, I remember reading somewhere about
>firearms having problems with exploding barrels. I could be wrong but water
>doesn't compress too well so the gas has no where to go. Boom!!!!!! I await
>replies with due dread.

It can be done, but you must get ALL the gas out of the barrel. Apparently
burst barrels are caused by the inability of gas in front of the bullet to
escape fast enough. I've seen a rilfe that someone had benn using to shoot
fish. He had accidentally put the muzzle underwater, and as a result burst
the barrel. The barrel had burst about an inch back from where the water
level was.

A while back _Guns & Ammo_ magazine did an arctile on underwater firing of
guns. They got into a swimming pool with an assortment of handguns and
fired them. IIRC none of them blew up, and the bullets went 10 - 20 feet
before running out of steam.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:14:37 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

At 09:37 pm 8/11/98 PST, you wrote:
>>>> That works well for things that they know are there already but
>> doesn't take
>>>> into account what search procedures are in place.  The thing
they
>> are
>>>> tracking that's just inches across is a wrench dropped by a
>> cosmonaut YEARS
>>>> ago.  That's not new or noteworthy, they already knew its track
>> and exactly
>>>> where to look for it....All data on it is in a major dBase and
>> they just
>>>> look it up when they want to go look for it.
>>>
>>>The thing is, it's no different than finding comets. You just take
>2>>snapshots, and compare everything in the snapshot with your
>> database.
>>>New items and items that have moved in an unexpected way stick out
>> like
>>>a sore thumb. 
>>
>>         And this takes a while ... time you may not have when
Darth Vader is
>> pasting all your surface installations?
>
>Remember, we are talking about *millions* of these scopes. Therefore
>comparing the snapshots from several scopes gves you an *instant*
>position fix. 

	Position fixes are fine ... once you know something is there and
approximately where it is, so you can correlate *this* anomalous
speck of light from this telescope with *that* anomalous speck of
light from that telescope. And the original detection, from my
understanding, takes a while. You take a photo tonight. Tomorrow
night you take another photo, and again, and again. Then you look for
specks of light which seem to move from night to night.

	OK. I jump into your system (in my ultrablack hulls ...), and take
up orbits which keep me on your sunlit side, so you telescopes are
worthless. Then I start pounding you.

	Or I change my vector each time I pass over on the sunside, where
you can't see me. Now you can't correlate targets from pass to pass,
so you can't compare different telescopes' images.

	Meanwhile, I'm jamming the hades out of your planet, and I've
already taken out major hardline comm nexi with pinpoint strikes--how
are you even going to get data from multiple scopes together? Are you
really going to have millions of meson comms?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:17:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

At 11:16 pm 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're
going
>to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly
if
>they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
>just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>
>  The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>in making examples of people (or peoples).

	The original definition of "decimate"--line up the POWs (or in this
case everybody above a certain rank on the planet), and start
counting ... one ... two ... three ... four ... five ... six ...
seven ... eight ... nine ... kill this man ... one ... two ... three
.....
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:19:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

At 07:10 am 8/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Peter Grining wrote:
>
>> Russian Shkval rocket torpedo.
>> The Shkval would be fired at bearing only launch and use a nuclear
warhead
>> to allow for aiming errors. Performance is 200 knots to 12000
yards.
>[Snip]
>> Italian A202 bazooka fired torpedo
>> Ordered in 1996 for Italian navy special forces. A 16 kilogram
mini-torpedo
>> fired from a bazooka (I think the system is called Medusa). The
warhead is
>> 5 kg, speed is 18 knots for 3 minutes. Useful for attacking
targets without
>> having to swim up to them. Also handy to avoid enemy dolphin-type
sentries.
>> Imagine a Medusa firing a Shkval!
>
>OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to mind?
Just how
>far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast anyhow?

	Why, just as far as a conventional explosive shock wave, of course!
More seriously, I'm fairly certain shock waves follow 1/r^2 just like
most other expanding wavefronts.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

David J. Golden writes:
>>OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to mind? Just how
>>far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast anyhow?
> 
>      Why, just as far as a conventional explosive shock wave, of course!
> More seriously, I'm fairly certain shock waves follow 1/r^2 just like
> most other expanding wavefronts.

Concussion wavefronts aren't 1/r^2 (overpressure is usually 1/r^3, and its
usually overpressure which determines damage).  As water is mostly
incompressible, I'm not sure how it will be affected; it probably actually
depends on the depth of the local water, since it is likely to create
conventional waves as well as compression waves.  In any case it will drop
faster than 1/r^2, because shockwaves travelling through a medium always waste
some energy heating up and/or decomposing the medium through which they pass.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 20:15:24 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98)

On 08/12/98 at 06:09 PM,  Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net> said:

>About Ringworld & Ringworld companion, if you know of anyone
>interested in it I have both (especially at that price).  The box for
>Ringworld is torn a little, and the dice are missing (like a gamer
>won't have dice), but otherwise everything is there and in good
>condition, right down to the registration card.

It's a shame!  There are so many interesting games and game
supplements out there, but being 'out of print' they become rare and
too expensive for people to do anything but collect them.  It's too
bad we can't find a way to keep all these things available.


Eris,
    way too cheap to pay $145 dollars for a copy of a used game. ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 20:23:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

On 08/12/98 at 04:24 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> And for the *personal* touch, we've got folks like Jason dinAlt, or
>> Slippery Jim diGriz (and family).
>>

>Oh lordy...I'd forgotten _all_ about Slippery Jim...

>here I go again...

>Eris...you are feeling sleepy...when I snap my fingers you will
>forget you ever read this thread...

*Yawn!* Excuse me for nodding off like that. Did I miss anything? ;->

>The _only_ thing worse than having players who read this list...is
>having a GM that does ;-)

You got that right Bruce! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:39:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
...
>>   If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're going
>> to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly if
>> they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
>> just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>>
>>   The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>> in making examples of people (or peoples).
>
>And since any society that uses imprisonment *at all* has to make an
>exception anti-slavery laws that allows involuntary servitude as a
>punishment, it might be *really* tempting to sentence the examples to
>"life at hard labor" on the sector hellhole's terraforming project or
>some such.

  A8 Prison Planet had a sort of nice take on things, if you looked at
it right. There you are, slaving away (pardon the expression) doing what
could be done hundreds of times faster with powered machinery, at great
pain and risk. It goes a long way towards reminding you that your society
has determined that you are a liability, and worth almost nothing.

  Perhaps for Imperial military personnel who really screw up they can
at least hope for the option of being punished in a fashion that allows
them to do something useful - salvage crew, mine-clearing, security work
on a real pesthole; unrealistic, perhaps, but an interesting source for
adventures or character background.

...
>Great way to hint that you *don't* want to be caught *starting* trouble
>on that world. Especially since even an idiot can figure out what the
>penalty for murder is... :-)

  But what about the players? :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:06:43 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Empty Quarter...

First, thanks to Jim Vassilakos for writing up
the galatic program (And he helped me
unzip it, too!)

Second, it has the ancient system writeup I 
wrote for the Empty Quarter, OK'ed by the
old HIWG email list!

YEAH!

Hi Jeff Zetlin, thank's for preserving the EQ data!
Jim, could you change the credits to refer to myself,
with major thanks for Jeff?

You all don't mind if I continue the writeup for EQ, do you?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:42:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington 

> Eris...you are feeling sleepy...when I snap my fingers you will forget
> you ever read this thread...

Did it work??

> The _only_ thing worse than having players who read this list...is
> having a GM that does ;-)

Heh.  Eris is *also* playing in my little debacle ^H^H^HPBEM.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:47:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98) 

> >About Ringworld & Ringworld companion, if you know of anyone
> >interested in it I have both (especially at that price).  The box for
> >Ringworld is torn a little, and the dice are missing (like a gamer
> >won't have dice), but otherwise everything is there and in good
> >condition, right down to the registration card.
> 
> It's a shame!  There are so many interesting games and game
> supplements out there, but being 'out of print' they become rare and
> too expensive for people to do anything but collect them.  It's too
> bad we can't find a way to keep all these things available.

There is, but it involves stepping on people's copyrights.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:50:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Empty Quarter... 

> You all don't mind if I continue the writeup for EQ, do you?

Naw, it should keep you busy & out of trouble for another year or so.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:00:05 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: re:Fighters & Planetary Assault

<html>
In my games I've always ran it that way.&nbsp; In one game the players
made an attack in an Mosquito class escort with the holds and hanger
modified to hold fuel.&nbsp; They jumped in out of the plane of the
elliptic and made a missile attack run by the main world at such a high
velocity that the defenders failed to react before the nukes hit.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:44:46 -0400 (EDT)<br>
&gt;From: John Macpherson &lt;john35@wharton.upenn.edu&gt;<br>
&gt;Subject: Fighters &amp; Planetary Assault<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>I had
another idea for uses of fighters and other patrol craft.&nbsp; <br>
&gt;One of the big arguments against them is that all a navy has to
control <br>
&gt;is the 100-d limit of the mainworld.<br>
<b>...</b> <br>
&gt;<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>The problem
is that an attacking fleet will very likely _not_ <br>
&gt;jump in right at the 100-d limit and start shooting because all of
the <br>
&gt;ships in the fleet will be arriving at different times.&nbsp; <br>
<b>...<br>
</b>&gt;&nbsp; This makes battles in interplanetary space more likely and
<br>
&gt;offers lots of exciting possibilities such as spreading missile 
<br>
&gt;&quot;minefields&quot; in the path of high-velocity attackers,
&quot;fast-pass&quot; <br>
&gt;engagements as two high-velocity fleets pass through each other and
then <br>
&gt;a long wait while they turn to match velocities or make another pass,
etc.<br>
&gt;<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>What do
people think?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;- -JM</html>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:31:28 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Galactic v2.4

> Announcing Galactic version 2.4:

Firstly let me say the new version is well worth the wait. However I found some 
specific issues when I converted a number of my existing sectors. Firstly after 
running the converter you need to go into the sector.dat file and strip out the 
"adacent sectors" (the bits that go <north>, <south> etc). If you don't galatic 
will see these as the first four subsectors and the blank line as the fifth (I 
suspect that there can only be one blank line between the sector header and 
the subsectors). Second you need to go into the sector.mnu file (in the gen 
directory) and the data.mnu file (in the maps directory) and add "gals/" to the 
file directory tree (it looks like "@dir=gals\Intwars\1stcont\gen"). Other than 
those minor point everything seems to run brillantly.

Now how do we get Jim to add mouse support :*> (not serious).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:09:11 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial justice and Local justice

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The agents need a lot of backing from desk types. Heck, consider the
> CIA, they need more folks to process data from their various sources
> (including agents in place) than people to *gather* it. They've just
> taken it a bit *too* far, with not enough people on the ground.

Well, what you say is essentially true.  But I don't think its a choice,
really.
The Operations Branch of the CIA is perennially understaffed and is
almost
always recruiting.  The main problem is lack of personnel with necessary

language skills, aptitude for the job and a willingness to work covertly

recruiting foreign national agents to give desired information.  An
apparently
rare combination.  The initial examination as part of the CIA
application process
is an all day standardized test of basic skills, world
politicial/social/cultural
knowledge and, somewhat surprisingly, two separate lengthy psych profile

questionaires (reminds me of The Parallax View with Warren Beaty - a
good
rental if you like Kennedy-Oswaldesque conspiracy plots).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:14:25 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Perhaps for Imperial military personnel who really screw up they can
>
> at least hope for the option of being punished in a fashion that
> allows
> them to do something useful - salvage crew, mine-clearing, security
> work
> on a real pesthole; unrealistic, perhaps, but an interesting source
> for
> adventures or character background.

Nah, promote 'em instead.  But promote 'em to Coreward or Spinward deep
scout missions,or particularly hazardous duty, such as testing new jump
drives, investigating ancient sites
on extreme hostile envirnoment planets.  You know, jobs where 90% of the
time they will
fail and die, 9% of the time they will succeed and die, and 1% of the
time they will succeed
and live.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:05:14 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

>Yeah, I can see hypersonic streamlining to deal with GG atmospheres, since
>in order to fill your tanks, you have to go deep *and* have the speed to
>get back out.
>
>Keven

CG (contragrav) anyone?
Streamlining IMHO would only be needed for variation in windspeeds.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:22:48 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>        Do you have any citations for the "gravity" model?
>
>        I don't think squaring the distance is a crazy idea since it's not
>just the cost of transport that matters, it's also the time it takes to
>get goods to market.  If you accept Ian's argument (which I do) that
>economies of scale & specialization are going to play a big role in
>interstellar trade, then you have to imagine that a great deal of trade
>is in intermediate goods -- goods that are inputs into other products.
>Since coordinating a supply chain in terms of inventory, design specs,
>defects, etc. is a communication intensive business, message lag times
>will be important.  Even in today's world of instant global
>communication, many manufacturers like to have their suppliers as close
>as possible.

Why is it cracy? If the cost depends on distance and the time depend on
distance wouldn't this give us that the total cost (given that time =
money) wouldn't this give us distance squared?`

BTW A big me too for getting quotes, URLs, books etc for the "gravity model".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:18:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How? 

> >Yeah, I can see hypersonic streamlining to deal with GG atmospheres, since
> >in order to fill your tanks, you have to go deep *and* have the speed to
> >get back out.
> 
> CG (contragrav) anyone?

I don't see it.

> Streamlining IMHO would only be needed for variation in windspeeds.

Let's see...  There would be *heavy* wind currents in the upper atmosphere of a GG.  Probably on the order of hundreds of klicks per hour.  Don't quote me on it, it's been about 25 years since I've studied any kind of physics.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:33:52 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Facts not in evidence

>Not a fact at all, Anders. The Fact in evidence is that the ranking systems
>in all editions of traveller which I have ever seen are derived from US
>structures. With the noteable exception of marines, who seem to be only
>slightly deviant, as perfectly beifts all marines I've met (US, Can, and
>RMC).

What does military ranking systems have to do with historical models of a
society?

OK, lets say the US actually resemble the Imperium a lot, then:

The US allow their states (or more likely their individual counties/cities)
to have from anarchy to police states, communistic, capitalistic or
whatever without interference from washington. The federal government of
USA allows small scale wars to be fought inside single cities as long as
the intracity trade is not hampered etc (one could argue that these are
gangwars in say LA and that the federal government actually allow them :-).
The president rules supremely and the congress/senate etc can only do one
thing: dissolve the government.

If the above description fits the USA and/or russia then your claim is true
but if the only resemblance with historical fact is the name of ranks etc
then I don't see any resemblance.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:43:15 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

>Tonight, during a Traveller chat, the question came up:
>What's Iridium?
>
>I mean, I know it's atomic #77, and that it's a black metal used in
>pen points and bearings.  But, what is the symbolic meaning for it
>to be used in the Iridium Crown of the Third Imperium?
>
>
>DonM.

Its a hard to find metal on earth but abundant in asteroids. Marc et al
probably thought it would give an SF feel with an asteroid metal replacing
gold, silver etc. I don't think much thought was put into it as anyone can
see that a metal that is scarce on planets but plentiful in space would
only be valuable on planets. Thus an Iridium throne would signify an empire
that hadn't been in space for very long and still valued metals etc by
planetary scarcity.

Just my 0.02 Cr.

OT: The main reason paleontologists think an asteroid killed the dinos is
due to an everpresent line of iridium in the sediment with the same age as
when the dinos died out.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:21:08
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Underwater combat
>
>
>BTW, TL differences can make for interesting situations. Say a
>balkanized world is at about WWII TL. There's a war going on, with
>convoys, wolfpacks, the whole bit. They've only recently been contacted
>and little tech has gotten imported yet.
>
>Now some helpful person imports a 688 class sub for one side. Here's
>this "unguarded" convoy sailing along. And as the enemy subs approach
>they all get knocked off with no warning and out of range. :-)

If you are doing convoy defense, a 688 is waaaaay overkill (and far too big
to import IMO). You'd be a lot better off with, say, half a dozen air/rafts
or helos with dipping sonars, plus a couple of Salmons or similar towed
sonars for your frigates. If the hi-tech units report where the subs are,
then the lo-tech units can do the killing.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:15:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> And for the *personal* touch, we've got folks like Jason dinAlt, or
>> Slippery Jim diGriz (and family).
>>
>
> Oh lordy...I'd forgotten _all_ about Slippery Jim...

That's ok. Forgetting about him could just get you broke and embarrased.

Forgetting about *Angela* could get you dead!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #738
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 739



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Drakia and Gal 2.4
Freelance Traveller: Information Sought
Re: Honor Harrington
ISBA
Challenge #39
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Challenge #39
Who Is This Guy???
Challenge
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice
Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:24:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

> At 11:16 pm 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>  If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're
> going
>>to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly
> if
>>they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
>>just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>>
>>  The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>>in making examples of people (or peoples).
>
>         The original definition of "decimate"--line up the POWs (or in this
> case everybody above a certain rank on the planet), and start
> counting ... one ... two ... three ... four ... five ... six ...
> seven ... eight ... nine ... kill this man ... one ... two ... three
> .....

I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions. It was
the punishment for a unit that mutinied. The idea was that since who
would get executed wasn't forseeable, you had a *strong* incentive to
turn in any would-be mutineers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:19:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> ...
>>>   If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're going
>>> to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly if
>>> they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
>>> just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>>>
>>>   The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>>> in making examples of people (or peoples).
>>
>>And since any society that uses imprisonment *at all* has to make an
>>exception anti-slavery laws that allows involuntary servitude as a
>>punishment, it might be *really* tempting to sentence the examples to
>>"life at hard labor" on the sector hellhole's terraforming project or
>>some such.
>
>   A8 Prison Planet had a sort of nice take on things, if you looked at
> it right. There you are, slaving away (pardon the expression) doing what
> could be done hundreds of times faster with powered machinery, at great
> pain and risk. It goes a long way towards reminding you that your society
> has determined that you are a liability, and worth almost nothing.
>
>   Perhaps for Imperial military personnel who really screw up they can
> at least hope for the option of being punished in a fashion that allows
> them to do something useful - salvage crew, mine-clearing, security work
> on a real pesthole; unrealistic, perhaps, but an interesting source for
> adventures or character background.

"Why are you using the lifers to clear that old waste dump?"
"It costs too much to decontaminate the droids afterwards. You can just
 toss dead bodies into the incinerator with the toxic waste."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:27:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

In mail you write:

> At 09:37 pm 8/11/98 PST, you wrote:
>>>>The thing is, it's no different than finding comets. You just take
>>>>snapshots, and compare everything in the snapshot with your
>>> database.
>>>>New items and items that have moved in an unexpected way stick out
>>> like
>>>>a sore thumb. 
>>>
>>>         And this takes a while ... time you may not have when
> Darth Vader is
>>> pasting all your surface installations?
>>
>>Remember, we are talking about *millions* of these scopes. Therefore
>>comparing the snapshots from several scopes gves you an *instant*
>>position fix. 
>
>         Position fixes are fine ... once you know something is there and
> approximately where it is, so you can correlate *this* anomalous
> speck of light from this telescope with *that* anomalous speck of
> light from that telescope. And the original detection, from my
> understanding, takes a while. You take a photo tonight. Tomorrow
> night you take another photo, and again, and again. Then you look for
> specks of light which seem to move from night to night.

You can use snapshots over much *shorter* intervals too. For one thing,
any *new* object will stick out immediately. And it won't take a
computer long to take the list of "new anomalies" from several scopes
and convert the relative bearings into 3d position maps. 

>         OK. I jump into your system (in my ultrablack hulls ...), and take
> up orbits which keep me on your sunlit side, so you telescopes are
> worthless. Then I start pounding you.

Well, until you get close enough to take them out, the *active*
sensors, as well as the passive orbital sensor packages, are going to
be telling me enough to chew you up a lot.

It's only after youve knocked those out that "stealthy" sensors on the
ground start to look good.

>         Or I change my vector each time I pass over on the sunside, where
> you can't see me. Now you can't correlate targets from pass to pass,
> so you can't compare different telescopes' images.

You can correlate the images from the *same* pass, if you have good
positions for the scopes. Which means that shortly after you cross the
terminator, you are in danger of being terminated. :-)

And all those course changes eat up not only *power* (and fuel in some
cases), but they also eat computer time (making sure everyone is in
orbits that don't interesect) and comm bandwidth (trying to distribute
the courses).

>         Meanwhile, I'm jamming the hades out of your planet, and I've
> already taken out major hardline comm nexi with pinpoint strikes--how
> are you even going to get data from multiple scopes together? Are you
> really going to have millions of meson comms?

That's exactly the sort of situation the packet networks such as the
Internet were *designed* for! To keep carrying communications reliably
with large holes chopped in the net.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:40:57
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>Why is it cracy? If the cost depends on distance and the time depend on
>distance wouldn't this give us that the total cost (given that time =
>money) wouldn't this give us distance squared?`

No.

Taking a dton of cargo a parsec costs about Cr 900. 2 parsecs cost about Cr
1300. 3 parsecs cost about Cr 1750 (ref Hans' Passenger and Freight table).
In all cases, it takes about 10 days per jump.

Now, look at a cargo going 8 parsecs. Assuming 'normal' distribution of
refuelling points, it should take 3 jump 3s. The cost of this is therefore
Cr 5250. Time is thirty days or so.

This is a lot less than distance squared times cost of a jump one, or Cr 57
600.

Now, a cargo will cost money to hold for the extra 20 days, but even at a
phenominal ten megacredits per dton and 5% interest, the 20 days only add
KCr 28 or so to the total cost (and thus make it well worth using a jump-5
freighter).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:11:57 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>No.
>
>Taking a dton of cargo a parsec costs about Cr 900. 2 parsecs cost about Cr
>1300. 3 parsecs cost about Cr 1750 (ref Hans' Passenger and Freight table).
>In all cases, it takes about 10 days per jump.
>
>Now, look at a cargo going 8 parsecs. Assuming 'normal' distribution of
>refuelling points, it should take 3 jump 3s. The cost of this is therefore
>Cr 5250. Time is thirty days or so.
>
>This is a lot less than distance squared times cost of a jump one, or Cr 57
>600.
>
>Now, a cargo will cost money to hold for the extra 20 days, but even at a
>phenominal ten megacredits per dton and 5% interest, the 20 days only add
>KCr 28 or so to the total cost (and thus make it well worth using a jump-5
>freighter).
>
>Ian Whitchurch

I agree (totally and humbly) and wonder only; where can I find "Hans'
Passenger and Freight table" as this surely seems a handy reference when
calculating what kinds of ships there are given a certain TL.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:47:49 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

>Query: If you're deep enough in a Gas Giant that the atmosphere hides you
>from sensors, how do you know when to come out?  Obviously your sensors
>are screwed too, if
>not scrubbed off entirely...
>
>By the way, does anybody have a diagram of a Gas Giant detailing
>atmospheres at various altitudes and gravity at same?  Plus the comparison
>to the 10 and 100
>diameter limits?

Run on battery power/flywheel etc and scan with neutrino scanners. That is
what my SDBs do in GGs. Obviously this cannot go on for long as
batteries/flywheels etc cannot run the gravplates for long.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:54:22 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

>You can find such diagrams in astronomy texts and various articles.
>
>Note that the gravity won't increase very fast as you go deeper,
>because the mass of any atmosphere farther out than you are no longer
>affects you (for gravity).

No, that's because the atmosphere thickness is so small compared to radius.
The mass of atmosphere at say 1000 atms or less is totally inconsequental.

>Pressures go up fairly fast. I don't recall what temperatures do.

The pressure increase goes up in proportion to gravity times average
molecular wight of gasgiant atmosphere. When I had my PCs dipping really
deep into a GG I worked it out and to my surprise the pressure doesn't
increase much faster than on earth as the higher gravity is counteracted by
the lower average molecular mass of the gas. I'll dig up my calculations if
anybody e-mail me directly.

>It's escape velocity that's the killer.

Not if the ship has CG.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:52:11 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

Or even simpler....Import a bunch of 21" (or whatever size the natives are
using) homing and/or wire guided torpedoes to replace the free running
torpedoes. Import the appropriate sensors, sit back and giggle....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:32:46 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>        Oh good, then it won't just *seem* like the lawyers are speaking
>another language, they actually will be!
>
>-JM

Lawyers today speak a language designed solely to force us hiring them to
help us in the first place. I'd rather go with the Backus-Naur as it was
designed to help understanding laws, NOT increasing confusion as it is
today.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:17:10 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

>Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:37:20 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Honor Harrington
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>> 
>>> And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
>>> 
[Hideous task force you've seen several times snipped]
>
>> In those immortal words: "We're cheet-os man!"
>
>Not "Game over, man! Game Over!".

Hm.  Our equivalent quote is "Characteristic look and feel."
Shorthand for the memorable quote "This has the characteristic look
and feel of a complete fiasco."

In my games, I've heard that phrase both at planning time, meaning
"this plan is way to complex and unworkable" or "we're doomed", and at
execution time, meaning "this isn't working" and "we're doomed."

Given the strong personalities in the 'Task Force from Hell' I would
put it on the players' side.  Then you can give them huge shocks as
their task force breaks up and starts sniping at each other.  After
all, in _each_ of those examples politics plays a big part.

Hmmm.  Let's see.  Harrington can insist on defending this convoy,
trading a large military exchange which could otherwise been fought on
favorable terms for the lives of the convoyed ships (Solar Spice and
Liquors, of course).  Meanwhile, the Dendarii will split up, leaving
some units around the planet you just left to rescue a relative.  The
rescue will fail, because Slippery Jim deGriz has already spirited the
relative away in a fast ship -- probably at a prearranged rondezvous
with Harrington.  However, in the rescue attempt, the Slammers will
"accidentally" topple the government, placing Miles on the throne
(kicking and screaming all the way) because it's the expedient way to
marshall the planet's resources to carry out the search for the lost
relative.

That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
the books.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:49:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
...
>>  The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>>in making examples of people (or peoples).
>
>	The original definition of "decimate"--line up the POWs (or in this
>case everybody above a certain rank on the planet), and start
>counting ... one ... two ... three ... four ... five ... six ...
>seven ... eight ... nine ... kill this man ... one ... two ... three
>.....

  I'd thought of something like that. You can also deal with profoundly
irritating regimes (e.g. de-nazification, the Khmer Rouge, Ba'ath Socialist
Party) by trouncing them on the battlefield and then lining them up by rank
on their membership list ("why thank you, young man, here's an amnesty and
Cr 1,000,000..."). Do that sort of thing as necessary and locals will simply
block out dumb ideas like holding off-worlders hostage or massacring their
political opponents grass-roots supporters en masse.

  Of course, killing the political oppositions' leadership could be a
protected cultural activity, just like in the Imperium :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:36:07 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Drakia and Gal 2.4

Just an interesting observation after playing with Jim's latest and greatest
version of Galactic, and in reference to some of the idle chatter on the
list about S.M. Sterling's Drakia. While scanning through the map I noticed
that the sector located one sector to Trailing and one sector to Rimward is
named Drakken. By my (casual, I admit) comparision to some of the older
Traveller maps I also see that the UPPER 3/4 of this sector is part of the
Hive Worlds, but a section of the sector amounting to approximately
sub-sectors M-P are not. Now supposing that a minor human race controlled
these stars...

(I really must have too much time on my hands!)
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:08:06 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller: Information Sought

With the opening of the Freelance Traveller Computer Connection,
Freelance Traveller is now seeking to become a central location
where any web-connected Traveller fan can find links to software
for support of Traveller, or which would be of interest to
Traveller fans.

However, Freelance Traveller is a one-person operation (believe
it or not - we've had notes dropped to us that seem to imply that
the writers believed that I was a full magazine staff!), even
though I frequently use the editorial "we",  and I simply _can't_
spend sufficient time on-line to find all that software - and I'm
not _every_ Traveller fan, either, so what _I_ select as software
may or may not be what _you_, as a Traveller fan, would.  And
vice-versa.

SO: As the editor of "The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource", I'm asking for fan support.  If you know of, or have
written, some software for support of Traveller, or which uses
Traveller themes, or which you feel would be of interest to
Traveller fans (Galactic Saga for the Apple II, anyone?), _and_
it's available for download, _please_ let Freelance Traveller
know.  I have no intention of putting the software itself on the
Freelance Traveller site (I have to deal with disk-space limits,
you know), but I _will_ link to it, and provide a description,
and if people write reviews of it, I'll make those available,
too.  Freelance Traveller has become a reasonably popular
Traveller site because of your help as fans; I'd like for it to
stay that way, or become even more popular - and the only way for
that to happen is if the fans participate.  For which
participation I thank you, in advance.

Freelance Traveller can be found on the World Wide Web at
http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller/ and at
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/.  The mirror site at execnet.com has
fully-functional feedback and Q&A forms; these forms don't work
at Tightbeam.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:56:42 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

> That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
> about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
> the books.
> 
> 	- Robert Ringrose
> 	  ringrose@ascent.com

Falkenberg's Legion, would do the same thing as Hammer's Slammers...  The
Dorsai, whould follow orders, or not...

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:54:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: ISBA

Is there a mailing list for the ISBA? How active is it?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:36:38 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Challenge #39

Does anyone out there have a copy of Challenge #39 they would be willing to
part with (for a price, of course). I can't seem to find a copy of it on any
of the online stores.

Baring that, is there anyone willing to copy (assuming its legal...I think
it is, since I believe it falls under Marc's out-of-print-hard-to-find
copying rule) the Hinterworlds supplement out of it...all of the related
articles for the Hinterworlds stuff....that's all I really want.

Thank you very much...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:26:05 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

>That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
>about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
>the books.
>
> - Robert Ringrose
>   ringrose@ascent.com
>

Falkenberg's Legion is primarily a light infantry unit, every bit as
specialized (and dangerous) as the Slammers - in their field of expertise.
While I can see either unit integrating well with the other, I do not see
either Col. Hammer nor Col. Falkenberg subordinating himself and his unit to
the other.

Now, Falkenberg on one side and Hammer on the other...  8^D

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:31:26 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Challenge #39

At 01:36 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone out there have a copy of Challenge #39 they would be willing to
>part with (for a price, of course). I can't seem to find a copy of it on any
>of the online stores.

I've an extra copy of that issue, complete with the Hinterworlds insert. If
you'd like it, I'd let it go for $8 - and that's including the 2-day
priority postage cost. Let me know.

L8r,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:14:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Who Is This Guy???

Would the guy who had the crathburn@hotmail.com account please contact me?  
Seems your Hotmail account is whacko and keeps bouncing my emails.

Keven
Candles Against the Night PBEM Ref
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:39:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Challenge

Dear Sir:

I looked and couldn't find mine :-(.  It does fall under the OK to make
personal copies guidelines, but I would still E mail Mark and ask, just in
case....

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:59:39 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

> Now, Falkenberg on one side and Hammer on the other...  8^D

That would equal one destroyed planet...

> E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com

Legate Legion
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:51:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

At 05:31 pm 8/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden writes:
>>>OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to
mind? Just how
>>>far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast
anyhow?
>> 
>>      Why, just as far as a conventional explosive shock wave, of
course!
>> More seriously, I'm fairly certain shock waves follow 1/r^2 just
like
>> most other expanding wavefronts.
>
>Concussion wavefronts aren't 1/r^2 (overpressure is usually 1/r^3,
and its
>usually overpressure which determines damage).  As water is mostly

	Really? Just off the top of my head, I'd expect r^2--the energy is
distributed (basically) in a spherical shell; the surface area of the
shell goes as r^2, therefore the (fixed) energy gets spread out as
the shell increases. At least looking at an inviscid, incompressible
fluid, that's what I'd guess ...

>incompressible, I'm not sure how it will be affected; it probably
actually
>depends on the depth of the local water, since it is likely to
create
>conventional waves as well as compression waves.  In any case it
will drop
>faster than 1/r^2, because shockwaves travelling through a medium
always waste
>some energy heating up and/or decomposing the medium through which
they pass.

	Ahh ... neglected the viscid/compressible aspects of the issue ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:52:48 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice

At 03:14 am 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>
>>   Perhaps for Imperial military personnel who really screw up they
can
>>
>> at least hope for the option of being punished in a fashion that
>> allows
>> them to do something useful - salvage crew, mine-clearing,
security
>> work
>> on a real pesthole; unrealistic, perhaps, but an interesting
source
>> for
>> adventures or character background.
>
>Nah, promote 'em instead.  But promote 'em to Coreward or Spinward
deep
>scout missions,or particularly hazardous duty, such as testing new
jump
>drives, investigating ancient sites
>on extreme hostile envirnoment planets.  You know, jobs where 90% of
the
>time they will
>fail and die, 9% of the time they will succeed and die, and 1% of
the
>time they will succeed
>and live.

	Nah, the way it happens in the real world is you promote'em to the
nice, cushy jobs.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:50:57 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98) 

From:           	"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Date sent:      	Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:47:16 -0400

> > It's a shame!  There are so many interesting games and game
> > supplements out there, but being 'out of print' they become rare and
> > too expensive for people to do anything but collect them.  It's too
> > bad we can't find a way to keep all these things available.

> There is, but it involves stepping on people's copyrights.

There is actually a way that out of print copyright items can be copied legally. If 
the original author asks the copyright holder to reprint and the copyright holder 
refuses, then the copyright reverts to the author. Its all got to do with the legal 
concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg you can 
only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated with 
derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #739
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 740



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)
1) Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe 2) HIWG list still up? 3) Imperial Captain Kirk 4) UNIX in Space....
Re: Imperial Economics
Decimate et alia
Technical Question - Help!
Copyright and other fun hobbies
Copyrights and Copies (Was - Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98))
Re: Copyright and other fun hobbies
Atlas of the Imperium for Sale
Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table
Re: Imperial Economics
Re: Challenge #39
Re: Nature of the Imperium
Re: TNE/Economic question
Re: Decimate et alia
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:37:47 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Planetary Assault (was re: fighters)

>>
>>         Position fixes are fine ... once you know something is there
and
>> approximately where it is, so you can correlate *this* anomalous
>> speck of light from this telescope with *that* anomalous speck of
>> light from that telescope. And the original detection, from my
>> understanding, takes a while. You take a photo tonight. Tomorrow
>> night you take another photo, and again, and again. Then you look
>>for specks of light which seem to move from night to night.
>
>You can use snapshots over much *shorter* intervals too. For one
>thing, any *new* object will stick out immediately. And it won't take a

>computer long to take the list of "new anomalies" from several scopes
>and convert the relative bearings into 3d position maps.

this depends on distance and speed, asteroids and comets out in the
asteroid belt or farther, time between pictures is measured in hours.
Orbital objects, time measured in minutes

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:43:57 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe 2) HIWG list still up? 3) Imperial Captain Kirk 4) UNIX in Space....

Jeff Z. added a nebula, Beta Niobe, in Beta Niobe/Empty Quarter.
Accoding to the blurb, it was a B6 Ia blue supergiant that became
a supernova in imperial year 122-(-836) (that's -836 Imperial).

Is this legit (AKA Canon, as far as HIWG is concerned?)
If so, what would be the damage effect's
of this supernova nearby (a sector is about 104.4 light years diam:
the shockwave will travel about 1 light year per year...).
Radiation effect's?

Is the HIWG list still up?  Can I rejoin if I send in my dues again?

*************

Seen in rec.arts.startrek.current....

(Poster: bs@boog.orgASM (Arthur Levesque). 1998/08/04

"First, the overview: while flying through space, an unidentified ship
catches up with the Enterprise.  A female boards the NCC-1701,
render's the crew unconsious, steals Spock's brain, and leaves.  
All of this before the opening credits.  McCoy attaches a computer 
thingy to Spock's head to keep the body alive for 24 hours...."

One day, I want to see this happen to an Imperial Navy or scout ship.
Well, maybe not...

***************

Out of curiosity, could a UNIX O/S be used to operate a jump-capable 
starship?  I suspect so - the Shuttle and assorted satillites do quite 
well with less.  Still, I'd like to be fairly sure that, somewhere, some 
fellow SysAdmin could be flying through the stars, slapping some 
hard disk space on the mainframes using SuperSolaris 10.6.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:46:29 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>
>Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
> 
>Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote: 
>> >>Using a "gravity" model - tonnage shipped is proportional to GWP and
>> >>profitability, and inversely proportional to the square of the
distance in
>> >>legs between source and market - 
>>
>> Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>> >IMO it should be tonnage shipped depends on the GWP and net profitability.
>> >We really should stick time in there as well, because time is money -
>> >someone has all this capital tied up in owning the cargo while it is
>> >between the worlds, money that could otherwise be earning a nice little
>> >packed in Hortalez et Cie bonds.  
>>  
>> The "gravity" model is derived empirically (not by me, of course) from
>> real-world observations of the amount of trade between points, based on
>> distance and an "attactiveness" factor, which I have represented with GWP
>> and (net) profitability.  The actual fitted value of the exponent for
>> distance is 1.9 - close enough to squaring as makes little difference.
>
>	Do you have any citations for the "gravity" model?
>

Two in fact, although both are secondary sources:

Flynn, Michael F., "An Introduction to Psychohistory", _Analog_, April
1988, p. 71.

Goodall, Brian, "gravity model", _Dictionary_of_Human_Geography_, p. 198-9,
Penguin, 1987.

Sorry I took so long to respond:  I've been away from the list this week.

Regards,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:24:50 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Decimate et alia

Leonard E said
>I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions. 

Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_ a word that
means "kill every tenth person"?

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>and There is actually a way that out of print copyright items can be copied
legally. >If the original author asks the copyright holder to reprint and the
copyright holder 
>refuses, then the copyright reverts to the author.

This is news to me...but then again, I'm not a lawyer. Where is this written
down?

> Its all got to do with the legal 
>concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg you
can 
>only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated with 
>derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.

So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the rights to
their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people I know.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:33:57 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Technical Question - Help!

Greetings Gentle and (un-gentle) persons,
Please bare with me on this one.
I've never been much of a "gear-head" and have
generally rely'd mostly on existing materials for
my campaigns.

BTW this list has been a great help and a godsend
for techno-newbies such as myself.

Could some wise soul out there lead my faltering steps
in the direction of a simple and workable spread sheet
for designing a recon grav bike? I've got a couple of
players who really want a few and I've no desire to
just "wing" this one.

Thanks very much in advance

Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fiastl.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice and Local Justice


>In mail you write:
>
>>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> ...
>>>>   If they do investigate and find something unacceptable they're going
>>>> to be at least tempted to make an example of someone, particularly if
>>>> they determine that efforts to hide the system have occurred (which
>>>> just screams "we _know_ what we're doing is a serious crime").
>>>>
>>>>   The 3I may not believe in genocide, but they may very well believe
>>>> in making examples of people (or peoples).
>>>
>>>And since any society that uses imprisonment *at all* has to make an
>>>exception anti-slavery laws that allows involuntary servitude as a
>>>punishment, it might be *really* tempting to sentence the examples to
>>>"life at hard labor" on the sector hellhole's terraforming project or
>>>some such.
>>
>>   A8 Prison Planet had a sort of nice take on things, if you looked at
>> it right. There you are, slaving away (pardon the expression) doing what
>> could be done hundreds of times faster with powered machinery, at great
>> pain and risk. It goes a long way towards reminding you that your society
>> has determined that you are a liability, and worth almost nothing.
>>
>>   Perhaps for Imperial military personnel who really screw up they can
>> at least hope for the option of being punished in a fashion that allows
>> them to do something useful - salvage crew, mine-clearing, security work
>> on a real pesthole; unrealistic, perhaps, but an interesting source for
>> adventures or character background.
>
>"Why are you using the lifers to clear that old waste dump?"
>"It costs too much to decontaminate the droids afterwards. You can just
> toss dead bodies into the incinerator with the toxic waste."
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:06:52 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Copyright and other fun hobbies

From:           	GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:24:50 EDT

> Andrew etc.
>   a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
> >and There is actually a way that out of print copyright items can be copied
> >legally. If the original author asks the copyright holder to reprint and the
> >copyright holder refuses, then the copyright reverts to the author.

> This is news to me...but then again, I'm not a lawyer. Where is this written
> down?

Its common law, therefore its not written down as such.

> > Its all got to do with the legal 
> >concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg you
> >can only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated with 
> >derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.

> So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the rights to
> their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people I know.

At least in NZ they can (I'd assume that since the US also has a common law 
system some similar provision would exist). However I think the coyright holder 
has to give an absolute refusal (I'm not sure but I think that mean nasty 
companies can get out of it by saying "not now, but we'll reconsider in 5 
years").

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:50:33 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Copyrights and Copies (Was - Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/9/98))

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> There is actually a way that out of print copyright items can be
> copied legally. If
> the original author asks the copyright holder to reprint and the
> copyright holder
> refuses, then the copyright reverts to the author. Its all got to do
> with the legal
> concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable
> (eg you can
> only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly
> complicated with
> derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.

Well, Andrew, that may be true for New Zealand and the UK (and probably
the EU),
but in the US, that won't fly.  In the US, the rights of an original
author of a copyrighted
work completely terminate on transfer of the copyright.  Though the
author may still
have a right of affiliation, i.e., to say that he is the author and for
the work to display that
as well, he has no standing to do anything about anything after the
transfer.

As a general rule, US intellectual property law does not recognise what
are often called
the "moral rights" of authors and inventors of items of intellectual
property.  By contrast,
most European countries do protect these rights, sometimes in very
strange ways.  For
instance, I paint a mural on a wall in my house.  Then I sell you the
house.  I may be able
to prevent you from painting over the mural.  However, if you chose to
destroy the entire
house, I couldn't stop you.  Odd, from an American point of view.

The closest the US comes to such things is a recent change provision for
visual graphic
works created and published in very limited print runs.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:05:19 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright and other fun hobbies

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

[not sure who the first passage is from]

> > This is news to me...but then again, I'm not a lawyer. Where is this
> written
> > down?
>
> Its common law, therefore its not written down as such.

Sorry to split hairs with you again, Andrew.  The term "common law"
means "judge made" law and it used to distinguish the law found in
written, published court opinions from the laws created by legistlatures
which is also written and published and referred to as "statutory law."
There is no such thing as a common law of copyright in the US, and if my
International Intellectual Property Law Professor was correct, anywhere
among the members to the Bern Treaty on Copyrights.

Of course, the value of a written law is somewhat less important in
countries which do not use a rule of Stare Decisis (The thing decided),
i.e., binding legal precedent, because even though the basic law may be
written down, judges are free to decide the issue as they feel
appropriate.

There is such a thing as "customary law" which is not written down, but
this is generally only used in the context of international law and
still requires proof that X was a custom of such standing and tradition
that it has risen to the level of customary international law.

> > So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the
> rights to
> > their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people
> I know.
>
> At least in NZ they can (I'd assume that since the US also has a
> common law
> system some similar provision would exist).

I don't know much about NZ in particular, but I do know some about the
UK and the EU. But its very, very dangerous to assume any similarity on
these kind of issues.  US intellectual property was written long after
the steady accretion of such things in England primarily, and as a
result, is a large comprehensive body of statutory law (actual, its
rather small as US federal laws go).  Especially with regard to
copyrights.  Also, the US system was in many ways a reaction to the
English and/or European systems and has some deliberate choices that are
the opposite of those laws.  The termination of an author's rights,
completely, on transfer of copyright and patent and the first-to-invent
system for patent registration, as opposed to first-to-file for most of
the world.

> However I think the coyright holder has to give an absolute refusal
> (I'm not sure but I think that mean nasty companies can get out of it
> by saying "not now, but we'll reconsider in 5
> years").

Nope.  WRT US Copyrights.

This stuff is confusing.  Thats why international lawyers make the big
bucks.

And just in case you're wondering, I just completed law school with a
heavy concentration of intellectual property law courses.  So at least I
know a little about what I'm saying.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:21:42 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Atlas of the Imperium for Sale

This is a sale, not an auction.  The gamestore I work for, Boscos, just
got a copy of Atlas of the Imperium by GDW (1984).  This usefull and
scarce supplement is in great shape.  The contents are near mint and the
cover is fine to very fine w/ some fading.  It is $39.95 US.  Within the
USA it would be $43.00 US including shipping by Priority mail.  The
first email to us at 	mailorders@boscos.com takes it.  Please include
your name & mailing address.  We take checks, money orders & all major
credit cards, we ship worldwide.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:18:37
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table

{NB Hans Ranke posted that he forgot about the larger power plant sizes for
jump 4-6 ships. However, this is compensated for by the much higher
efficiencies for power plants at TL13 and up, due to direct effects and the
higher scale efficiency modifiers from the higher tech power plants. To
compensate for Hans' house rules, remember a bunk takes up 1 dton, a small
stateroom 2 and a large stateroom 4. Class IV and less have life support
based on volume not passengers, so cram em in).


REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35
jumps per year):
             
           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
Jump-2:     1,500     1,800    3,800    6,600    8,400    1,170      585
Jump-3:     2,100     2,200    5,100    9,000   11,400    1,660      555
Jump-4:                                13,400             2,400      600
Jump-5:                                19,800             3,660      735
Jump-6:                                35,000             6,370    1,065

*Assuming the route is an exact multiple of the jump rating.

Note 1: The prices above was arrived at by designing a number of 600 T ships
(with QSDS1.5) each dedicated to one kind of passengers, ie. a ship with 1 T
of cargo space per passenger and 1 steward per 8 passengers for High
Passengers, another ship with negligible cargo space and 1 steward per 50
passengers for Middle Passengers, a ship with small staterooms for Economy
Passengers, a ship with Low Berths and 1 medic per 20 berths for Low
Passengers, and a ship with bunks only for Steerage Passengers, plus a ship
with cargo hold only for freight. In all cases, except the ships for Steerage
passengers, the design included emergency medical low berths enough to
accomodate a full complement of crew and passengers.

Note 2: I've used my own rules for life support costs and introduced a
"misjump insurance" based on the value of the ship to compensate. As a
result passenger rates are a bit lower and freight rates a bit higher
than official rules would get you.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:12:40 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics

>
>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:40:57
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>>
>>Why is it cracy? If the cost depends on distance and the time depend on
>>distance wouldn't this give us that the total cost (given that time =
>>money) wouldn't this give us distance squared?`
>
>No.
>
>Taking a dton of cargo a parsec costs about Cr 900. 2 parsecs cost about Cr
>1300. 3 parsecs cost about Cr 1750 (ref Hans' Passenger and Freight table).
>In all cases, it takes about 10 days per jump.
>
>Now, look at a cargo going 8 parsecs. Assuming 'normal' distribution of
>refuelling points, it should take 3 jump 3s. The cost of this is therefore
>Cr 5250. Time is thirty days or so.
>
>This is a lot less than distance squared times cost of a jump one, or Cr 57
>600.
>
>Now, a cargo will cost money to hold for the extra 20 days, but even at a
>phenominal ten megacredits per dton and 5% interest, the 20 days only add
>KCr 28 or so to the total cost (and thus make it well worth using a jump-5
>freighter).
>

Not to contradict what Ian and others have said, but to clarify:

The "gravity model" I cited measures interaction between two points.  That
interaction could be trade, traffic, communication, immigration, or any
number of relationships.  The model is empirically derived - that is, it is
an observation, not a theory.  In the case of Traveller economics, I used
it to  reflect the *demand* for trade between two worlds with given
characteristics, one of which was the distance between them.  Demand is
influenced by a number of factors beyond transportation cost:  type of
goods offered, whether they can be obtained from another source closer to
hand, communications delays in advertising, ordering and payment, etc.  I
abstracted some of these into gross or net "profitability", and left the
rest to the inverse-square relationship.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:25:09 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Challenge #39

In a message dated 8/13/98 11:40:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, igor@ames.net
writes:

<< Does anyone out there have a copy of Challenge #39 they would be willing to
 part with (for a price, of course). I can't seem to find a copy of it on any
 of the online stores.
 
 Baring that, is there anyone willing to copy (assuming its legal...I think
 it is, since I believe it falls under Marc's out-of-print-hard-to-find
 copying rule) the Hinterworlds supplement out of it...all of the related
 articles for the Hinterworlds stuff....that's all I really want.
 
 Thank you very much... >>

Did I not send you this info?  If so, I will be glad too...

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:41:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nature of the Imperium

Terry Mixon writes:

> - ---"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>>A sticky point I always have, though, is the limits of individual 
>>behavior.
>>If I kill a person (not that any of our heroic PCs would ever do such a
>>thing - except in self defense) and the local gov't thinks I should be
>>prosecuted (or has already held the trial and sentanced me to death)
>>can they appeal to the Imperial government to have me extradited back to
>>the planet in question?  If not, then killers can roam from place to 
>>place, leaving a trail of bodies.  If so, the not-so-fair governments can
>>extradite people they don't like on trumped up charges.  There must 
>>be a middle ground somewhere there...any ideas?
>
>Hmmm. How about this, Yes to extradition but the persons are tried
>in an Imperial Extradition court, by an Imperial Judge. That person
>can then either find the defendant innocent, and the charges will no
>longer be valid in the eyes of the Imperium but the defendant might
>want to avoid ever going back there, or found guilty and turned over
>to the prosecuting world for punishment.
> 
>An alternative would be that the Imperium holds an extradition
>hearing in which compelling evidence must be presented to show a need
>for trial. 

IMO extradition would be a matter for the individual planetary governments
to decide. There are two factors involved: 1) Does the original planet want
the perpetrator badly enough to pay the expense of tracking him down and
paying to get him back (Which can easily run into serious money)? This
question alone would eliminate a lot of cases. Secondly, does the planet
where the alledged perpetrator is now want to turn him over to the first
planet? This would depend on the nature of the crime, the weight of
evidence, the reputation of the first planet and the mores and customs of
the second planet. 

The Imperium would be able to demand extradition of people charged with
Imperial crimes regardless of the wishes of the planet he is on, but they
would still have to decide whether it is worth the trouble. Just getting
him arrested would be tricky if the planetary authorities decided not to
cooperate.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:54:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: TNE/Economic question

John Macpherson writes:

>trisen@postmaster.co.uk wrote:
>>I am trying to build an economic model for a TL12/13 balkanised
>>world based on the "Colonial Economics" chapter of World Tamer's
>>Handbook (TNE) and have run into a stumbling block.
> 
>	Having some experience with WTH from when I was trying to detail
>the RC with it, I can tell you that it's not very good for that sort of
>thing.  What I found was that with only moderate population and TL (like 6
>for both) the production totally exploded.  Everyone had many times the
>expected wealth for their TL, many times the max food on the table, and
>there was still a surplus.

The problem is that WTH presumes that everybody is involved in primary and
secondary production. There is at least three sectors missing: Service
sector, Administration Sector, and Non-contributing Sector (Criminals,
unemployed, idle rich, etc.). As the society grows bigger these sectors
would all increase significantly.

I'd love to work out something similar to WBH to describe mainworld
societies, but there's so much else to work on...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:22:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> > Its all got to do with the legal
> >concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg you
> can
> >only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated with
> >derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.
> 
> So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the rights to
> their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people I know.
> 

Well, it's a LOT more complicated than that...it all depends, as Loren knows
well, on exactly _what_ rights the author signed away on the dotted line of
the contract.

This is also why, in the fine print of movie and television credits there'a
always a line like:

"For the purposes of copyright law, Columbia Pictures is the sole author of
this picture"

Mind you, in the case of some of the more schizophrenic megacorps, this could
still lead to years of legal wrangling before the two distant subsidaries
realized they were, in fact, parts of the same company.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:32:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

>> That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
>> about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
>> the books.
>> 
>>       - Robert Ringrose
>>         ringrose@ascent.com
>
> Falkenberg's Legion, would do the same thing as Hammer's Slammers...  The
> Dorsai, whould follow orders, or not...

Falkenberg's Legion is your basic infantry regiment. They've got
artillery, and the like, but they are definitely *infantry*.

The Slammers are armored cavalry. Tanks and mechanized transport for
their infantry. 

They'll support each other nicely. And they both have the attitude that
it's best to fix the damn problem rather than play politics. I think
Hammer and "Christian Johnny" would like each other.

The Slammers and Falkenberg haveboth been in situations where it was a
choice between survival and orders. And they've been in the position of
being hired to solve an "insoluble" problem. They've been known to
allow people to give orders that can allow them to do what's needed and
be "unable to be contacted" when the horrified bureacrats realized that
they were actually going to *carry out* the orders.

And for anyone who thinks the Dorsai haven't done their share of this,
I suggest that you listen to the Balld of Jacques Chretien as found in
the story Brothers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:01:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

>>That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
>>about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
>>the books.
>
> Falkenberg's Legion is primarily a light infantry unit, every bit as
> specialized (and dangerous) as the Slammers - in their field of expertise.
> While I can see either unit integrating well with the other, I do not see
> either Col. Hammer nor Col. Falkenberg subordinating himself and his unit to
> the other.

That's why both are under either Cletus Graham, or Donal Greame. Since
I think Donal is overkill for this group, we'll have Cletus in overall
command. 

> Now, Falkenberg on one side and Hammer on the other...  8^D

I really can't see Falkenberg *stopping* the Slammers without *very*
favorable terrain and circumstances. But he'd sure as hell slow them
down and make them *pay* for every inch of ground.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:06:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

In mail you write:

>>Query: If you're deep enough in a Gas Giant that the atmosphere hides you
>>from sensors, how do you know when to come out?  Obviously your sensors
>>are screwed too, if
>>not scrubbed off entirely...
>>
>>By the way, does anybody have a diagram of a Gas Giant detailing
>>atmospheres at various altitudes and gravity at same?  Plus the comparison
>>to the 10 and 100
>>diameter limits?
>
> Run on battery power/flywheel etc and scan with neutrino scanners. That is
> what my SDBs do in GGs. Obviously this cannot go on for long as
> batteries/flywheels etc cannot run the gravplates for long.

You can do without internal grav comp if the crew is in good shape. 3 g
for Jupiter, only 1 g for Saturn. Other gas giants it depends.

And frankly, I can't see anybody having *anything* to do with the *big*
gas giants we've detected out there unless they had no choice. 

The one that comes to mind is that one that's 50 times the mass of
jupiter and orbiting a G or F type star at *less* than an AU. If it is
a gas gaint (and not something weird), then it'll actually be *smaller*
than jupiter due to the gravity causing more of the core to be
degenerate. 

That means 150-200 g at the top of the atmosphere. With more solar
input than earth gets to drive the atmospheric circulation. Giving you
storms I don't even want to *think* about. And even CG won't let you
get away from a gravity well like *that*.

The sort of Gas Giants generated by all the world creation systems I've
seen tend to be smaller than Jupiter, so the gravity on a ship "hiding"
in one of them won't be a big problem.

Hey! That exlains the odd layout on some of those ships. They're
expected to spend a lot of time loitering in GG atmospheres! So the
decks are laid out for that!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #740
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 741



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Underwater combat
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Honor Harrington
Imperial Megacorps (was re: Decimate...)
Re: Technical Question - Help!
re: Underwater Combat
RE: Nature of the Imperium / Criminal Justice
Re: Honor Harrington
RE: Copyright and other fun hobbies
re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Warrant of Restoration
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Underwater fire combat
Re: Titan Games Preview
Re: Technical Question - Help!
Re: Imperial Megacorps (was re: Decimate...)
re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table
Re: Decimate et alia
Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Underwater combat
>>
>>BTW, TL differences can make for interesting situations. Say a
>>balkanized world is at about WWII TL. There's a war going on, with
>>convoys, wolfpacks, the whole bit. They've only recently been contacted
>>and little tech has gotten imported yet.
>>
>>Now some helpful person imports a 688 class sub for one side. Here's
>>this "unguarded" convoy sailing along. And as the enemy subs approach
>>they all get knocked off with no warning and out of range. :-)
>
> If you are doing convoy defense, a 688 is waaaaay overkill (and far too big
> to import IMO). You'd be a lot better off with, say, half a dozen air/rafts
> or helos with dipping sonars, plus a couple of Salmons or similar towed
> sonars for your frigates. If the hi-tech units report where the subs are,
> then the lo-tech units can do the killing.

Sure, but after they quit getting fooled by the "undefended" convoys,
you then start hunting down their Navy.

And actually, I'm sure that a 688 will fit into the hold of a medium
sized freighter. You just sinks the freighter, sail the sub over the
hatch into the flooded hold. Submerge, have the sub secured by hawsers
to tiedowns, close the hatch. Then set the internal grav field to keep
things oriented properly in the hold. The "caretaker" crew for the sub
just spends the trip in the sub using it's life support.

Much simpler than messing with cradles and all that. It also makes it
easier to unload covertly at the end of the trip.

Hell. It just occured to me that if you fitted it with a CG unit, you
could *fly* the damn thing into orbit (have to use the batteries
though as the reactor won't run without lots of seawater for cooling). 
Have it rendezvous with one of those cargo carriers with the "net" jump
grid. and away you go.

Hmmm. Now *there's* an adventure idea. The players have been hired to
assist in daring venture. A late TL-4, easly TL-5 goverment has
purchased a bunch of "mothballed" TL-6 (wet) Navy units from a TL-7
world. It's been decided that the easiest way to transfer them is to
fit "bolt on" some drive and power units form scrapped starships and
fly the ships up to hook onto an old battle-rider tender(is that the
right term) which will ferry them to the destination (only one jump
away or nobody would be crazy enough to try this).

So you get to deal with things like sealing some compartments (and the
bridge) for use during the "flight", and finding places to attach the
CG and fusion power packs where they'll stay put but also be easy to
remove at the destination.

Sure, it's not a *normal* thing to do. But I can see it looking just
possible enough for someone to try it. 

And many a pilot would be interested just to be able to have entries in
his flight log saying that he flew a wet navy *battleship* from surface
to an orbital rendezvous, and a week later landed the damn thing!

Hell, I can even see some planets that are newly contacted deciding
(correctly, IMNSHO) that orbiting some old battle ships might make a
good start on a space station. The main guns *will* work in space at
"short" ranges (ie a few thousand km). They'd be enough to keep
merchant ships in line. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:16:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

In mail you write:

> At 05:31 pm 8/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>David J. Golden writes:
>>>>OOh, ouch! Why does the term 'nuclear hand grenade' spring to
> mind? Just how
>>>>far does a nuke pressure wave travel in an underwater blast
> anyhow?
>>> 
>>>      Why, just as far as a conventional explosive shock wave, of
> course!
>>> More seriously, I'm fairly certain shock waves follow 1/r^2 just
> like
>>> most other expanding wavefronts.
>>
>>Concussion wavefronts aren't 1/r^2 (overpressure is usually 1/r^3,
> and its
>>usually overpressure which determines damage).  As water is mostly
>
>         Really? Just off the top of my head, I'd expect r^2--the energy is
> distributed (basically) in a spherical shell; the surface area of the
> shell goes as r^2, therefore the (fixed) energy gets spread out as
> the shell increases. At least looking at an inviscid, incompressible
> fluid, that's what I'd guess ...

No, you forget that pressure works out to energy per *volume*. So you
get closer to r^3 than r^2. Check out tables of blast effects for
nukes or other large explosions. First approximation is inverse cube.

In fact the standard crater diameter formula uses 1/r^3.4!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:47:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

In mail you write:

> OT: The main reason paleontologists think an asteroid killed the dinos is
> due to an everpresent line of iridium in the sediment with the same age as
> when the dinos died out.

It's pretty much confirmed. They found the crater a few years back.
It's in Central America, on that "bump" that sticks out into the Gulf
of Mexico. It was a coastal strike, and the crater's "only" about 200
km across. If it wasn't for all the oil drilling in the Gulf they'd
have taken a lot longer to spot it, as it was pretty well filled in by
sediment. 

I know the name of the site but I can't *spell* it. Chix<something>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:38:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

>
>>Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:37:20 PST
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Honor Harrington
>>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:
>>>> 
> [Hideous task force you've seen several times snipped]
>>
>>> In those immortal words: "We're cheet-os man!"
>>
>>Not "Game over, man! Game Over!".
>
> Hm.  Our equivalent quote is "Characteristic look and feel."
> Shorthand for the memorable quote "This has the characteristic look
> and feel of a complete fiasco."
>
> In my games, I've heard that phrase both at planning time, meaning
> "this plan is way to complex and unworkable" or "we're doomed", and at
> execution time, meaning "this isn't working" and "we're doomed."

As much as I hate to admit having watched the program, this reminds me
of the Classic A-Team line: "I love it when a plan comes together.."

> Given the strong personalities in the 'Task Force from Hell' I would
> put it on the players' side.  Then you can give them huge shocks as
> their task force breaks up and starts sniping at each other.  After
> all, in _each_ of those examples politics plays a big part.
>
> Hmmm.  Let's see.  Harrington can insist on defending this convoy,
> trading a large military exchange which could otherwise been fought on
> favorable terms for the lives of the convoyed ships (Solar Spice and
> Liquors, of course).  Meanwhile, the Dendarii will split up, leaving
> some units around the planet you just left to rescue a relative.  The
> rescue will fail, because Slippery Jim deGriz has already spirited the
> relative away in a fast ship -- probably at a prearranged rondezvous
> with Harrington.  However, in the rescue attempt, the Slammers will
> "accidentally" topple the government, placing Miles on the throne
> (kicking and screaming all the way) because it's the expedient way to
> marshall the planet's resources to carry out the search for the lost
> relative.

I admit that there *are* possibilities for a classic JANFU here.
(JANFU: Joint Army Navy F--- Up)

On the other hand, *none* of the above are in the habit of shafting
their own side unless it's unavoidable. 

> That'd give the PCs plenty to deal with, and I haven't even talked
> about the Dorsai or Falkenberg's Legion because I'm not familiar with
> the books.

The Dorsai are from Gordon R. Dickson's "Childe" cycle. But for us
"military" buffs, I'd suggest starting with just "The Tactics of
Mistake", "Soldier, Ask Not", "Dorsai!" (also printed as "The Genetic
General"), and some of the short stories in books like "Spirit of the
Dorsai" and "Lost Dorsai".

Falkenberg's Legion is from a number of books in Jerry Pournelle's
"Co-Dominium" series. Falkenberg starts out in ther CoDominium Marines,
and later due to cutbacks, he's pensioned off and basicly rebuilds his
regiment as a mercenary unit. 

The books that come to mind (far too much of my library is in storage)
are "Mercenary" and ...  (damn, I can't recall any other titles!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:56:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Imperial Megacorps (was re: Decimate...)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mind you, in the case of some of the more schizophrenic megacorps, this could
still lead to years of legal wrangling before the two distant subsidaries
realized they were, in fact, parts of the same company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That may not matter, depending on the nature of relationship between
the subsidiaries. Even a wholly-owned subsidiary, in the absence of
orders from above, has authority over it's property above that of
another wholly-owned subsidiary. Tukera may own Akshel Lines
and Aramanx Starport Management, Inc., but that doesn't mean Akshel
starships get free use of Aramanx berths - unless Tukera ordered that it
be so, in which case there would be contracts involved just like any
other association between two seperate business entities.

Taco Bell and Doritos may both be owned by Pepsico, but that doesn't
mean the manager of the local Doritos plant can send his workers over
to Taco Bell for a free lunch every day.

Btw, in the case of the more schizophrenic Megacorps, it may matter
even less. Some megacorps may decide that allowing their subsidiaries
to compete as if they were independent business units may be a good
idea - competition as a business improvement strategy. The winning
subsidiaries would be used as models for other subsidiaries, the
losing subsidiaries would be gutted and discarded. And all would
be assets of the Megacorp, ready to be taken over and directed if
some major project is intended (a corporate war, subsector settlement
plan, etc.). 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:34:50 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Technical Question - Help!

Pat Connaughton wrote:

> Could some wise soul out there lead my faltering steps
> in the direction of a simple and workable spread sheet
> for designing a recon grav bike? I've got a couple of
> players who really want a few and I've no desire to
> just "wing" this one.

Well, I seem to recall the Dean files having some really cool grav bikes. If you
can't find them, I've made a copy of those designs for my personal use. Assuming
there's no copyright violation, I could send them to you.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:19:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Underwater Combat

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hell, I can even see some planets that are newly contacted deciding
(correctly, IMNSHO) that orbiting some old battle ships might make a
good start on a space station. The main guns *will* work in space at
"short" ranges (ie a few thousand km). They'd be enough to keep
merchant ships in line. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmmm...didn't someone try this with the  BB Yamamoto?  <g>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:47:46 -0700
From: Vince Blackburn <VinceB@bsa.ca.gov>
Subject: RE: Nature of the Imperium / Criminal Justice

	Another factor to consider is whether certain crimes are punishable
directly by the Imperial Government.  For example, in America a bank
robber or interstate kidnapper can be tried directly in Federal court
without any state getting involved, even though the crime was committed
on one or more states' soil.  Most of these laws were enacted to deal
with crimes where the perpetrators typically get away by crossing state
lines.  (Although a few may have had no other purpose than to get a
particular politician elected.)
	It would make sense for the Imperium to punish certain crimes in a
similar manner.  The most obvious would be interstellar piracy, followed
by assaults on Imperial personnel or property.  Beyond that, it's really
up to the GM.  Is your Imperium a lassaiz-faire state that doesn't
really care whether planetary governments achieve justice?  Does
virtually any felon who crosses over into another jurisdiction open
himself up to punishment in an Imperial prison?

- -- Vince Blackburn

>Terry Mixon writes:
>
>> - ---"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>>A sticky point I always have, though, is the limits of individual 
>>>behavior.
>>>If I kill a person (not that any of our heroic PCs would ever do such a
>>>thing - except in self defense) and the local gov't thinks I should be
>>>prosecuted (or has already held the trial and sentanced me to death)
>>>can they appeal to the Imperial government to have me extradited back to
>>>the planet in question?  If not, then killers can roam from place to 
>>>place, leaving a trail of bodies.  If so, the not-so-fair governments can
>>>extradite people they don't like on trumped up charges.  There must 
>>>be a middle ground somewhere there...any ideas?
>>
>>Hmmm. How about this, Yes to extradition but the persons are tried
>>in an Imperial Extradition court, by an Imperial Judge. That person
>>can then either find the defendant innocent, and the charges will no
>>longer be valid in the eyes of the Imperium but the defendant might
>>want to avoid ever going back there, or found guilty and turned over
>>to the prosecuting world for punishment.
>> 
>>An alternative would be that the Imperium holds an extradition
>>hearing in which compelling evidence must be presented to show a need
>>for trial. 
>
>IMO extradition would be a matter for the individual planetary governments
>to decide. There are two factors involved: 1) Does the original planet want
>the perpetrator badly enough to pay the expense of tracking him down and
>paying to get him back (Which can easily run into serious money)? This
>question alone would eliminate a lot of cases. Secondly, does the planet
>where the alledged perpetrator is now want to turn him over to the first
>planet? This would depend on the nature of the crime, the weight of
>evidence, the reputation of the first planet and the mores and customs of
>the second planet. 
>
>The Imperium would be able to demand extradition of people charged with
>Imperial crimes regardless of the wishes of the planet he is on, but they
>would still have to decide whether it is worth the trouble. Just getting
>him arrested would be tricky if the planetary authorities decided not to
>cooperate.
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:37:06 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington


>Falkenberg's Legion is from a number of books in Jerry Pournelle's
>"Co-Dominium" series. Falkenberg starts out in ther CoDominium Marines,
>and later due to cutbacks, he's pensioned off and basicly rebuilds his
>regiment as a mercenary unit.
>
>The books that come to mind (far too much of my library is in storage)
>are "Mercenary" and ...  (damn, I can't recall any other titles!)
>
There's a combined edition of the first 2 books out here called Falkenberg's
Legion, also interesting, while being somewhat divergent, are Prince of
Sparta, Go Tell the Spartans and... D**N now I've gone into brain lock. At
any rate these books describe the actions of a detached unit of Legioneers
on Sparta. The final book also described the beginning of the First Empire
of Man (in Jerry Pournelle's universe). Pournelle's works are a good read
for Traveller, they have a lot in common, primarilly slugthrowers for ground
pounders, Jumpdrive (with fixed J-points) etc.

I'd like to add one possible name to the list o ground pounders... Raj
Whitehall fro S. M. Stirling and David Drakes "The General" series. At the
later stages of the series he might be an excellent choice for overall
command of theground units, even if he operated on a low tech world. Of
course the fact that he is being helped by the computer Sector Command and
Control Unit AZ12-b14-c000 Mk. XIV would allow him to understand an
integrate the "modern" units into his strategy.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:01:33 -0700
From: Vince Blackburn <VinceB@bsa.ca.gov>
Subject: RE: Copyright and other fun hobbies

>
>> Andrew etc.
>>   a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>> >and There is actually a way that out of print copyright items can be
>>copied
>> >legally. If the original author asks the copyright holder to reprint and
>>the
>> >copyright holder refuses, then the copyright reverts to the author.
>
>> This is news to me...but then again, I'm not a lawyer. Where is this
>>written
>> down?
>
>Its common law, therefore its not written down as such.
>

Common law is *always* written down as case law - that is, the decisions
of judges.  (For example, the concept of judicial review is common law,
written down in the judicial decision _Marbury v. Madison_.)  Before you
rely on this, talk to an intellectual property lawyer for your
particular country and see if he can give you a citation to a case that
states this specifically.

- -- Vince J. Blackburn, esq.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:23:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table

>           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
>           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
>Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840

Marketing effects would drive the Economy/Middle/High passage distinction
higher, I suspect, in the same fashion that business and first class 
airfare is *much* higher than economy; first class gets perhaps one more
attnedent
of dedicated service (negligible cost) and occupies seats that take ~2
seats room but cost much more than twice what economy does.
The price delta isn't set by the cost delta but by the value delta, as it 
were. (And by the fact that most people aren't paying their own money to
fly business class, of course.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:28:21 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

>[gas giants]
>The one that comes to mind is that one that's 50 times the mass of
>jupiter and orbiting a G or F type star at *less* than an AU.

This is (almost certainly) technically a brown dwarf rather than a gas giant.
(There is a meaningful distinction; brown dwarfs form like stars, as 
independent condensations out of the original dense nebular cloud, while 
gas giant planets form from accretion in a disk surrounding an already-formed
protostar.) Observationally, this means planets should tend to be in circular
(and relatively wide) orbits (unless the planet is then shuffled in to a 
close orbit, as is thought to have happened with all the newly-discovered
close gas giants) while brown dwarfs can be in the same sort of arbitrary
orbits that binary stars are.

From a Traveller standpoint, the gas giants in the PGB column should all be
real gas giants - 0.1 - 3 jupiter masses or so; 50-jupiter-mass brown dwarfs
should be generated on the table that generates binary stellar companions.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:07:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Warrant of Restoration

jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:16:55 -0400, SD Mooney
><dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>>It's in M0 and is the charter for the third Imperium. I believe that Jeff
>>Zeitlin may be the guilty party - but that's a faded memory.

>Guilty, as charged - but not remorseful... :)

Don't be. It's a fine addition to the book.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:02:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>And of course, there's the Task Force from Hell:

>Ground elements:
>	Falkenberg's Legion
>	more Dorsai
>	Dendarii mercenaries
>	Hammer's Slammers
>Anyone have other elements to add?

Some of the Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers (FROM THE BOOK!) (for
shock value) and a section of Feydakin from Dune.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:05:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Underwater fire combat

 shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>> How does the different Traveller weapons perform under water?
>> Slug throwers powered by chemical explosions: I should think that it
>> would be possible to construct such a weapon in a way that the
>> gunpowder does not get wet, but apart from that, would it be able to
>> fire? Or does the explosion still need air?
>
>Cartridges are *already* airtight and water tight. You'd have tio go
>fairly deep before you had to worry about water getting to the powder.
>There's neither space not time for air to get into a cartidge *during*
>firing. The reaction is entirely self contained.
>
>So common firearms will work in anything from vacuum to underwater.

cf Alien Resurrection

>You also don't want to use grenades. The concussion will be *nasty*.

Also in AR but that was somewhat less realistic.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:09:03 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> wrote:

>>The owner quoted selling a copy last GenCon UK at 140 GBP (ie $210 US) plus
>>40 GBP for the companion ($60).
>
>Wow! Is the offer still open? I remember seeing a copy in a used bookstore
>in Canada.

I can ask next time I'm in!

For some reason they seem to charge more at Cons...!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:12:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Technical Question - Help!

The Dean files, as well as some nifty grav vehicle designs (modest
cough) are available at my site:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/traveller.html

If you have the superior taste to own a macintosh ;-), there's also a
link to Rob Prior's Infini-V program, whihc is a construction set for
Traveller vehicles, using the CSC vehicle design rules. a Windows
version is in the works but on an unknown timetable right now, as Rob
is, I hope, feverishly coding away on his FFS2 program...;->
  

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> Pat Connaughton wrote:
> 
> > Could some wise soul out there lead my faltering steps
> > in the direction of a simple and workable spread sheet
> > for designing a recon grav bike? I've got a couple of
> > players who really want a few and I've no desire to
> > just "wing" this one.
> 
> Well, I seem to recall the Dean files having some really cool grav bikes. If you
> can't find them, I've made a copy of those designs for my personal use. Assuming
> there's no copyright violation, I could send them to you.
> 
> Erwin

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:15:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Megacorps (was re: Decimate...)

Walter Smith wrote:
>
 
> Taco Bell and Doritos may both be owned by Pepsico, but that doesn't
> mean the manager of the local Doritos plant can send his workers over
> to Taco Bell for a free lunch every day.
> 

yah, but Taco Bell and Frito Lay rarely sue each other, much less engage
in corp warfare, which in canon is the case (SuSAG has been known to
have this happen, from the write up on SuSAg in JTAS)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table

> >           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
> >           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
> >Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840

Could someone offer an explanation of exactly what each of these passage
types means in terms of actual accomodations? I mean, Low Passage offers a
chance of death in cryo - do steerage passengers (presumably awake, though
cramped), have a casualty rate as well?

Ben

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:52:29 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

>Mind you, in the case of some of the more schizophrenic megacorps, this
could
>still lead to years of legal wrangling before the two distant subsidaries
>realized they were, in fact, parts of the same company.
>

And it wouldn't make a difference on the outcome!

IRL - there is a major oil company that a friend of mine did some consulting
work for.  It consists of 5 major business units, and the infighting is
fierce.  Part of what he (and the team he was a member of) were trying to do
was migrate them to a new e-mail system.  Most of the problems that they had
to overcome came from the fact that each business unit had it's own IT
department, and none were willing to subordinate themselves to any of the
others.  Each department had to literally be ordered to make the concessions
necessary from way, way up on high, and each decision was fought (from what
I heard) all the way up to the VP level (probably exaggerated, I'm sure not
*every* decision was contested that high...)

The main problem is that the business units were, in essence, competitors
within the corporate framework.  And since they are not competing in the
open market, but behind the corporate front, only corporate policy
constrains their actions.

OBTrav - just how nasty would a internal megacorporate conflict get?

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:40:47 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)

>> Its all got to do with the legal
>>concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg you
>can
>>only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated with
>>derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.
>
>So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the rights to
>their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people I know.
>
>Loren Wiseman

As several others have pointed out it greatly depends upon what rights you
sold to the company. And, in the case of defunct companies, how those
rights were held by the company.

There is another point which will probably benefit game supplement writers.
A company cannot buy rights to your ideas, only to the article in which you
express those ideas. So, if you developed an alien race for Traveller, the
Shoaojin, and sold an article on the Shoaojin to a publisher whom you have
a falling out with, you can write a new article on the Shoaojin, keeping
your creative work and research and sell it to whomever you wish. The mean
publisher owns your first article, you own the Shoaojin.

If the original, mean publisher hires someone to write an article on the
Shoaojin without your permission, you can sue them for poaching your idea.
If you can produce your development notes for the Shoaojin, and if the
publisher fails to prove that the Shoaojin exist in reality and therefore
are free for anyone to write about, you will have a good case.

Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #741
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 742



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bug Huntin'
Dean Files Grav Bikes
Citizens of the TML
RE: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)
Re: Imperial Trade
Re: Decimate et alia
re: Freelance Traveller: Information Sought
Re: Honor Harrington 
Re: Nature of the Imperium 
[T98#740] Empty Quareter: Beta Niobe
Re: [T98#740] Empty Quareter: Beta Niobe
Re: Reavers' Deep 
RE: Decimate et alia
Re: Decimate et alia 
Re: Reavers' Deep 
Re: Reavers' Deep 
Re: Reavers' Deep 
Re: Why Iridium?
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Citizens of the TML
Islands Clusters History (was Re: Islands Clusters Routes)
Question: EQ worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:38:50 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Bug Huntin'

A couple of months ago, I ran across a Traveller website which had a writeup
on the I'Sred*Ni,
a race found in the Beyond Sector. Unfortunately, I can't find the website
again. Would
anyone happen to know the URL for it?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Dean Files Grav Bikes

The Dean Files are all for MegaTraveller, of course, which I hope won't
be a problem for the fellow that wants the designs.  It's been a while
since I looked at them, so I know that I did grav bikes at several tech
levels, but don't recall if any of them had specialized recon sensor
arrays...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:46:26 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Citizens of the TML

Just another quick note to let everyone know about the old "Citizens of the
TML" that Dave Golden triggered about a year ago.  I've changed ISPs and
have decided to move my page at the same time.  The new URL is listed
below.

Now I just have to get caught up with the 500+ TML emails that I haven't
read yet.  Switching ISPs isn't always neat...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:34:56 -0700
From: Vince Blackburn <VinceB@bsa.ca.gov>
Subject: RE: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)

>
>>> Its all got to do with the legal
>>>concept that "ownership" of intellectual property is not transferable (eg
>>>you
>>can
>>>only sell the "rights" to it). This of course gets horribly complicated
>>>with
>>>derivative works (eg supplements) and multiple authors.
>>
>>So authors can force mean, nasty companies to give them back the rights to
>>their hard earned writings? This will come as news to several people I know.
>>
>>Loren Wiseman
>
>As several others have pointed out it greatly depends upon what rights you
>sold to the company. And, in the case of defunct companies, how those
>rights were held by the company.
>
>There is another point which will probably benefit game supplement writers.
>A company cannot buy rights to your ideas, only to the article in which you
>express those ideas. So, if you developed an alien race for Traveller, the
>Shoaojin, and sold an article on the Shoaojin to a publisher whom you have
>a falling out with, you can write a new article on the Shoaojin, keeping
>your creative work and research and sell it to whomever you wish. The mean
>publisher owns your first article, you own the Shoaojin.
>
>If the original, mean publisher hires someone to write an article on the
>Shoaojin without your permission, you can sue them for poaching your idea.
>If you can produce your development notes for the Shoaojin, and if the
>publisher fails to prove that the Shoaojin exist in reality and therefore
>are free for anyone to write about, you will have a good case.
>
>

	This is correct if you are talking about a simple copyright to a
written story.  However, there are other tools and scenarios that make
this more complex.  For example, if you sold the mean publisher the
right to trademark the word "Shoaojin," you will have to rename your
aliens before you publish a story anywhere else.  You can also sign over
rights to unwritten works, sign non-competition agreements, and a host
of other things.  Under American law, at least, just about anything goes
if the contract says so.

- -- Vince J. Blackburn, esq.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:51:37
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Trade

>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Economics
>
>
>Not to contradict what Ian and others have said, but to clarify:
>
>The "gravity model" I cited measures interaction between two points.  That
>interaction could be trade, traffic, communication, immigration, or any
>number of relationships.  The model is empirically derived - that is, it is
>an observation, not a theory.  In the case of Traveller economics, I used
>it to  reflect the *demand* for trade between two worlds with given
>characteristics, one of which was the distance between them.  Demand is
>influenced by a number of factors beyond transportation cost:  type of
>goods offered, whether they can be obtained from another source closer to
>hand, communications delays in advertising, ordering and payment, etc.  I
>abstracted some of these into gross or net "profitability", and left the
>rest to the inverse-square relationship.

Part of the problem with this is that there is a massive history of
substantial long-distance trade over large distances, especially in luxury
goods, but sometimes in staples such as grain.

I'm not going to go into detail unless people really want me to, but the
mere fact that goods people wanted were from halfway around the world (in
fact, from well beyond the 'known world' for the consumers) and would take
6 months to get to market never stopped them being shipped, if the profit
was high enough.

I'd even throw up the counter-theory, that consumers are often want goods
from far away, just because they are from far away.

I think the solution is using the Culture score of a world in PE ... high
culture worlds demand goods from far away, while low culture worlds dont.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:23:32 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

At 10:52 AM 8/14/98 -0700, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
>
>OBTrav - just how nasty would a internal megacorporate conflict get?
>
You don't think the megacorps keep all those mercs on the payroll just to
keep the local planets in line do you?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:32:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Freelance Traveller: Information Sought

jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:


>SO: As the editor of "The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
>Resource", I'm asking for fan support.  If you know of, or have
>written, some software for support of Traveller, or which uses
>Traveller themes, or which you feel would be of interest to
>Traveller fans (Galactic Saga for the Apple II, anyone?), _and_
>it's available for download, _please_ let Freelance Traveller
>know.  I have no intention of putting the software itself on the
>Freelance Traveller site (I have to deal with disk-space limits,
>you know), but I _will_ link to it, and provide a description,
>and if people write reviews of it, I'll make those available,
>too.  Freelance Traveller has become a reasonably popular
>Traveller site because of your help as fans; I'd like for it to
>stay that way, or become even more popular - and the only way for
>that to happen is if the fans participate.  For which
>participation I thank you, in advance.

Rob Prior's software for the Mac can be found at

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/RPS.html

but I would recommend using http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/  and using the
links on the home page as I am planning to rebuild the website in the next
two months.

Dom

RPS.html
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:46:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington 

> Falkenberg's Legion is from a number of books in Jerry Pournelle's
> "Co-Dominium" series. Falkenberg starts out in ther CoDominium Marines,
> and later due to cutbacks, he's pensioned off and basicly rebuilds his
> regiment as a mercenary unit. 

He started out at 16 as a cadet in the CoDominium Naval Academy, graduated as 
a midshipman.  Later, he transfered first to Fleet Marines, then Line Marines.

> The books that come to mind (far too much of my library is in storage)
> are "Mercenary" and ...  (damn, I can't recall any other titles!)

'West of Honor', 'Go Tell The Spartans', 'Prince of Mercenaries' and 'Falkenburg's Legion'.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:25:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Nature of the Imperium 

> >Hmmm. How about this, Yes to extradition but the persons are tried
> >in an Imperial Extradition court, by an Imperial Judge. That person
> >can then either find the defendant innocent, and the charges will no
> >longer be valid in the eyes of the Imperium but the defendant might
> >want to avoid ever going back there, or found guilty and turned over
> >to the prosecuting world for punishment.
> > 
> >An alternative would be that the Imperium holds an extradition
> >hearing in which compelling evidence must be presented to show a need
> >for trial. 
>
> IMO extradition would be a matter for the individual planetary governments
> to decide. There are two factors involved: 1) Does the original planet want
> the perpetrator badly enough to pay the expense of tracking him down and
> paying to get him back (Which can easily run into serious money)? This
> question alone would eliminate a lot of cases. Secondly, does the planet
> where the alledged perpetrator is now want to turn him over to the first
> planet? This would depend on the nature of the crime, the weight of
> evidence, the reputation of the first planet and the mores and customs of
> the second planet. 

My take, and the way it works IMTU, if a planet wants to extradite somebody 
where there's no existing extradition treaties, they place it in front of the 
Imperial Extradition Court.  Outside of the Imperium, in areas where there is 
an Imperial presence but not Imperial territory outside a Naval or Scout base, 
the senior scout administrator (for a Scout base) or the JAG officer (for a 
Naval base) will conduct a hearing in order to see if there is sufficient 
evidence to prosecute the defendant.  If so, the hearing board kicks it 
'upstairs' to the regular Imperial Extradition Courts.  This works both ways; 
a non-Imperial world can ask for extradition from the Imperium, and the 
Imperium can ask for extradition from non-Imperium worlds.

The gotchas are as follows:  

First off, the offense must be a crime against the safety or security of the 
Imperium, against the safety or person of an Imperial citizen, or against the 
property of an Imperial citizen.  Things like blasphemy don't fall under any 
of these categories, so it's not very likely the Imperium will extradite 
anybody to stand trial for it.

Second, there can be only one extradition attempt for any extraditable event.  
This means, if the prosecution blows it, it's almost the same as an aquittal 
since this event may *never* be brought before the Imperium again.  Of course, 
if the PC ever goes back there, they're on their own.  <grin>

Third, there is a statute of limitations in some cases.  Murder, enslavement, 
treason, and such don't have a statute of limitations.  Things like smuggling 
might have a statute of limitation depending on what was smuggled and what the 
smuggled goods were intended for.  Example:  the character smuggles a gauss 
rifle onto a high law level planet for use in assassinating an Imperial 
official.  The attempt succeeded, so the PC is up on smuggling, weapons 
violations, terrorism, and accessory to murder.  Some of these charges have a 
limit, like the smuggling and the weapons violations.  The accessory murder 
and terrorism charges don't.

Fourth, the loser has to pay the court costs.  <grin>
 
> The Imperium would be able to demand extradition of people charged with
> Imperial crimes regardless of the wishes of the planet he is on, but they
> would still have to decide whether it is worth the trouble. Just getting
> him arrested would be tricky if the planetary authorities decided not to
> cooperate.

If it was an Imperial crime that they were interested in actively persuing, they'd go through the trouble because it is worth it.  Shutting down a slavery ring or closing down a pirate operation is worth it, even if it's only for example value.  Examples tend to be deterants to the people who tend to waver.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:43:56 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#740] Empty Quareter: Beta Niobe

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:03:44 -0400, "alvin plummer"
<aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

>Jeff Z. added a nebula, Beta Niobe, in Beta Niobe/Empty Quarter.
>Accoding to the blurb, it was a B6 Ia blue supergiant that became
>a supernova in imperial year 122-(-836) (that's -836 Imperial).

>Is this legit (AKA Canon, as far as HIWG is concerned?)

Don't consider this canonical; I couldn't resist the Star Trek
reference, and it's positioned so as to (a) have broken an
otherwise nice route across that arm of the Lesser Rift, and (b)
enable one of the other systems in that subsector to have been
colonized.  If you don't like it, consider it to be the blank hex
that it was when I got the data.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:26:19 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: [T98#740] Empty Quareter: Beta Niobe

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:43:56 GMT, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:03:44 -0400, "alvin plummer"
> <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:
> 
> >Jeff Z. added a nebula, Beta Niobe, in Beta Niobe/Empty Quarter.
> >Accoding to the blurb, it was a B6 Ia blue supergiant that became
> >a supernova in imperial year 122-(-836) (that's -836 Imperial).
> 
> >Is this legit (AKA Canon, as far as HIWG is concerned?)
> 
> Don't consider this canonical; I couldn't resist the Star Trek
> reference, and it's positioned so as to (a) have broken an
> otherwise nice route across that arm of the Lesser Rift, and (b)
> enable one of the other systems in that subsector to have been
> colonized.  If you don't like it, consider it to be the blank hex
> that it was when I got the data.

Hey Jeff, would you mind clarifying something for me?  By point (a) above,
can I assume that nebulae can block jump routes?  I suppose this makes a
certain amount of sense, since it might be difficult to arrive at a point
within a nebula that was "100 diameters" from *all* of the nearby gaseous
matter bitz...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:23:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep 

Hans, I noticed that in the old PE ML, you mentioned something about having 
info on a Solomani-Eakotoi (sp) war in the Deep.  Did you post this stuff to 
the PE ML, or just archive it off somewhere?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:32:03 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Decimate et alia

Mercenaries?

Oh, you mean the temps from the Security, Acquisitions, and Collections 
departments!  :)

Question - Inter-corp warfare is governed under the Articles of War, how 
would intra-corp infighting be governed?  I mean, if two Oberlindes 
freighters started launching missiles at each other, would the Imperial 
Navy step in to stop them?

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Brian A. Howard[SMTP:bruadh@earthlink.net]
Sent: 	Friday, August 14, 1998 2:23 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM; traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Decimate et alia

At 10:52 AM 8/14/98 -0700, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
>
>OBTrav - just how nasty would a internal megacorporate conflict get?
>
You don't think the megacorps keep all those mercs on the payroll just to
keep the local planets in line do you?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:46:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia 

> Mercenaries?
> 
> Oh, you mean the temps from the Security, Acquisitions, and Collections 
> departments!  :)
> 
> Question - Inter-corp warfare is governed under the Articles of War, how 
> would intra-corp infighting be governed?  I mean, if two Oberlindes 
> freighters started launching missiles at each other, would the Imperial 
> Navy step in to stop them?

I doubt it.  But the local cops might get involved...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:51:43 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep 

At 10:23 PM 8/14/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans, I noticed that in the old PE ML, you mentioned something about having 
>info on a Solomani-Eakotoi (sp) war in the Deep.  Did you post this stuff to 
>the PE ML, or just archive it off somewhere?

Not Soloman_i_, but Soloman (RD 1538).
Hans created the "Soloman Economic Sphere",
a Reaver-era polity that got into a conflict
with an Aslan company (and its related clan)
that left both spent.

I think the reason behind it was to explain
why there wasn't a greater Aslan involvement
in that immediate area.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:22:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep 

> At 10:23 PM 8/14/1998 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hans, I noticed that in the old PE ML, you mentioned something about having 
> >info on a Solomani-Eakotoi (sp) war in the Deep.  Did you post this stuff to 
> >the PE ML, or just archive it off somewhere?
> 
> Not Soloman_i_, but Soloman (RD 1538).
> Hans created the "Soloman Economic Sphere",
> a Reaver-era polity that got into a conflict
> with an Aslan company (and its related clan)
> that left both spent.
> 
> I think the reason behind it was to explain
> why there wasn't a greater Aslan involvement
> in that immediate area.

Ah, gotcha.

Is the data in the old PE archives somewhere tho?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:47:52 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep 

At 12:22 AM 8/15/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>Ah, gotcha.
>
>Is the data in the old PE archives somewhere tho?

Yes.

Go through the stuff that was in the APPROVED
directory. That had a lot of the historical
material Hans had worked up.

You can run a search for Soloman Economic Sphere
on any unzipped file. That should turn up
what you're looking for.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:27:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

At 12:47 am 8/14/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> OT: The main reason paleontologists think an asteroid killed the
dinos is
>> due to an everpresent line of iridium in the sediment with the
same age as
>> when the dinos died out.
>
>It's pretty much confirmed. They found the crater a few years back.
>It's in Central America, on that "bump" that sticks out into the
Gulf
>of Mexico. It was a coastal strike, and the crater's "only" about
200
>km across. If it wasn't for all the oil drilling in the Gulf they'd
>have taken a lot longer to spot it, as it was pretty well filled in
by
>sediment. 
>
>I know the name of the site but I can't *spell* it. Chix<something>

	The Chixtlub?? impact basin ... Purists would note that this merely
presents supporting evidence that an impact was responsible for the
iridium-enriched sedimentary layer, and is only circumstantial
evidence of any cause for the die-offs.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:29:48 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

At 12:16 am 8/14/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>>         Really? Just off the top of my head, I'd expect r^2--the
energy is
>> distributed (basically) in a spherical shell; the surface area of
the
>> shell goes as r^2, therefore the (fixed) energy gets spread out as
>> the shell increases. At least looking at an inviscid,
incompressible
>> fluid, that's what I'd guess ...
>
>No, you forget that pressure works out to energy per *volume*. So
you

	Doh! Why was I thinking all the energy would be concentrated in the
blast front ...? That's what I get for shooting from the hip. 

>get closer to r^3 than r^2. Check out tables of blast effects for
>nukes or other large explosions. First approximation is inverse
cube.

	Or there are some interesting programs out there. I got my hands on
one at my last job, that was even unclassified! They were just gonna
throw it out.  Also, the High Energy Weapons Archive has some
fascinating stuff, including spreadsheets for the truly gearheaded
and/or interested ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:34:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Citizens of the TML

At 08:46 pm 8/14/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Just another quick note to let everyone know about the old "Citizens
of the
>TML" that Dave Golden triggered about a year ago.  I've changed ISPs
and

	Whoa! It's not my fault! I didn't do it, you can't prove it, there
are no witnesses, I wasn't around, there was no controlling legal
authority, I didn't consider it sex ...


	Sorry, just a bad week at work ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:08:27 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Islands Clusters History (was Re: Islands Clusters Routes)

>
>Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:01:31 -0700
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: re:Islands Cluster Routes
>
>They probably didn't have radio communication with the Imperium. A favourite
>TML conspiracy theory is that the ESA long-range colonization mission was 
>sent because the ESA had some hints of the existence of the Vilani
>(crashed Vilani scoutship at Roswell for the extreme conspiracy types, 
>interferometer and radio observations of Barnard's star for the
non-conspiracy
>types) and was trying to send out a branch of Terran humanity far enough to
>be safe if Terra got invaded.  That explains why they picked such distant
>and isolated stars. The colonists might have historical records telling them
>to avoid communication...and would have been *really* unhappy when the
>Imperium arrived.
>

Now, consider the voyage those ships had to take. Assume their
communications gear was up to intercepting routine radio traffic out to ~1pc. 

At ~0.23c (divide the 174pc distance from Earth to New Home by 2,462
years), they would not have passed within range of their first star
(Zaggisi/1523 Solomani Rim) until c. 2118 - 5 years after the start of the
First Interstellar War.  They might hear Terran voices and codes, 7pc from
home, but they would be  fighting for their lives!  No wonder they just
kept going.

They pass through a corner of the Vegan Polity between c. 2167 and 2193,
and get a taste of some really *alien* aliens for the first time there.

When word comes in 2302 that the Nth Interstellar War has ended in victory
for Terra, they have just passed Yrsai (0511 Solomani Rim).  By the time
the Rule of Man is declared (in 2317), the ships have passed out of range
again.  They pick up the news in 2352, near newly-renamed Sidon (0308
Solomani Rim).

I imagine there was quite a debate among the crews (who were by then in
their 12th shipboard generation) and the sleepers who were awake at the
time, about whether to contact the 2d Imperium and end the voyage.  In the
end, we know what the decision was.

About the same time as the collapse of the Rule of Man and the start of the
Long Night, the colony ships pass the former borders of the Ziru Sirka,
into the semi-civilized peripheral states beyond.  After 700 years of
eavesdropping on their more successful cousins, the silence between the
stars must have been at once deafening and a vindication of their
ancestors' decision to press on.

Seventeen hundred years of the Long Night was enough to see them unmolested
and undisturbed through Daibei and Ilelish Sectors to the Great Rift.
Another debate, this time over whether to settle in the Bight on the
rimward boundary of Ilelish and Zarushagar Sectors, may have resulted in
some colonists landing on worlds with names like Havre ("Haven", 0338
Zarushagar) and Colony Four (0738 Zarushagar); other colonies may have been
lost.

Finding the Islands Clusters in the center of the Great Rift was either the
greatest stroke of luck, or the result of Really Huge Baseline
Interferometry (TM) telescopes in the Solar System (Lunar farside? Asteroid
Belt?) picking them for a destination before the ESA launched the mission.
The colonists settled the three most promising systems in 4512-18 - just
before Cleon Zhunastu declared the founding of the 3d Imperium (4521).
Their history from then to first contact (5501) centered around colonizing
and exploiting the rest of the Clusters.


I have always assumed that, since _Eldorado_ misjumped from battle damage
sustained in the Third Frontier War, her captain would want to return to
the Spinward Marches by the most direct route:  Serendip
Belt-Gloire-Zufluct-deep space-Cerebin (0207 Reft).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:25:57 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Question: EQ worlds

Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"

System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...

Also, that supernova at BEta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova 
was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...

Thanks,

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #742
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 743



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Technical Question - Help!
EQ:Supernovas (and a bit of the Beyond):  EQ question
A quote...
Lorean Hegemony: a part of the Julian Protectorate?
Re: Technical Question - Help!
BITS / GenCon UK
Calling Keven...
Avalon Hill (OT)
Re: A quote...
re: Islands Cluster History
Re: Question: EQ worlds
[none]
Question on Rimreach Sector and beyond
Re: Avalon Hill (OT)
Re: Reavers' Deep 
Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe
Sample Grav Recon Bike
Re: [T98#742] Question: EQ worlds
UWP's for EQ
Contacting John Harshman
[none]
Re: Honor Harrington
Re: Decimate et alia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 00:01:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Technical Question - Help!

>If you have the superior taste to own a macintosh ;-), there's also a
>link to Rob Prior's Infini-V program, whihc is a construction set for
>Traveller vehicles, using the CSC vehicle design rules. a Windows
>version is in the works but on an unknown timetable right now, as Rob
>is, I hope, feverishly coding away on his FFS2 program...;->

  You wish! While I'm willing to concede that he's almost certainly not
a hoax carried out by gifted Ontario high-schoolers (if he is, they've
got a career in FX), I distinctly understood the communication of the
concepts "beach", "sunshine", etc.

  I suspect serious dereliction of duty here, comrades.

        (I also begin to want a Mac, too)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:45:52 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: EQ:Supernovas (and a bit of the Beyond):  EQ question

>Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:43:56 GMT
>From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>Subject: [T98#740] Empty Quareter: Beta Niobe
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:03:44 -0400, "alvin plummer"
><aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:
>>Jeff Z. added a nebula, Beta Niobe, in Beta Niobe/Empty Quarter.
>>Accoding to the blurb, it was a B6 Ia blue supergiant that became
>>a supernova in imperial year 122-(-836) (that's -836 Imperial).
>>Is this legit (AKA Canon, as far as HIWG is concerned?)
>Don't consider this canonical; I couldn't resist the Star Trek
>reference, and it's positioned so as to (a) have broken an
>otherwise nice route across that arm of the Lesser Rift, and (b)
>enable one of the other systems in that subsector to have been
>colonized.  If you don't like it, consider it to be the blank hex
>that it was when I got the data.

I like the idea enough to think it worthwhile keeping: I am cc'ing
this message to HIWG, and hoping that they will let the nebula stay.

The only rough thing about it is that it's a large coincidence:
supernova's are a rare thing, after all.  But I can always blame the
Ancients....

[Aside...]

Also, Jeff V., the star's in the Beyond sector: some of them form an
obviously
artifical hexagonal pattern.  If this is for real, then the ancients somehow
got the power to move *Star Systems* around.  I hope this isn't canonical,
as this
means that the Final War would have left more than mere asteroid belts
as debris!

(read blurbs in Galatic 2.4)

Apparently this IS canon, or at least semi-canon, as Paranoia Press
published this sector as shown!  Yikes!

[End aside]

(Grab's copy of "What if the Moon Didn't Exist" by Neil F. Comins)

Summary: A supernova will kill all life within a 50-light-year diameter
(that's
15 parsec's).

(Closes book)

Does anyone here know what to expect, at so-and-so
lightyears from the supernova? Ie, my guesstimate...
    50-light years - kill's everything
    100-light years - kill's all higher lifeforms
    150-light years - causes extensive damage to the biosphere:
        if human setteld, 1/2 of population dies
    200-light years - causes sigificant damage to the biosphere:
        if human-settled, 1/20th of population dies
    250-light years - marginal effect's of the supernova.  Slight radiation
        increase.

Actually, it doesn't affect my development of the Empty Quarter
too much, as it is thinly settled anyways.  And it shouldn't affect the
Imperium as a whole too much, either (the Imperium is BIG,
and the Empty Quarter will be taking the brunt of the explosion).
Still, I'd like to at least discuss the implications before locking in
the supernova as HIWG dogma....

*********

I have just been informed that the system in hex 2423 at the Empty Quarter
is a client state of the Imperium (in Atlas of the Imperium).
If you have copies of the Empty Quarter, pelase change your info to match
this: I will do so from my end.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:17:08 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: A quote...

 
And now, a quote...

We follow orders or people die. We live in a world that has walls 
and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. 

I have a greater responsibility than you can fathom. You want me 
on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like Honor, 
Code, Loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of the life 
spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have 
neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man 
who rises and sleeps under the blanket of freedom of which I 
provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I 
would rather you just say, "Thank you," and be on your way. 
Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand that wall. 

Either way, I don't give a damn about what you think you're entitled to.

     Colonel Nathan Jessup
     A Few Good Men  

A nice little commentary to throw at the nobility.  Of course, 
Imperial Nobility being Imperial Nobility, a good-sized number
actually will "pick up a weapon", just not *quite* in the way the
Colonel meant...


Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:41:33 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Lorean Hegemony: a part of the Julian Protectorate?

I was hoping to use the Lorean Heg. as a foil against the
Julian Protectorate in the Empty Quarter. The alligence
codes (Hl = Lorean Hegemony) suggest that the hegemony is
indeed an independent nation, seperate from the Julian
Protectorate (a federation of nations, their alligence codes
always begin with "J", as in Jr, JP, etc).

Of course, the Hegemony is heavily settled by Vargr in
the Offical Universe, so perhaps their relationship 
with the Protectorate is the usual chaotic mess?

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:59:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Technical Question - Help!

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>If you have the superior taste to own a macintosh ;-), there's also a
>link to Rob Prior's Infini-V program, whihc is a construction set for
>Traveller vehicles, using the CSC vehicle design rules. a Windows
>version is in the works but on an unknown timetable right now, as Rob
>is, I hope, feverishly coding away on his FFS2 program...;->

Rob has been working on the following this summer -

Metator 2 - Detailed world building for all published milieux
Imperial Grand Survey 2 - Domain scale sector mapping and generation

He may also have the following ready soon -

QSDS - quick and dirty QSDS ship design a la Infini-V
Armoury - FFS2 (1) weapon design (part of his development for FFS2)

I haven't seen them yet as he is emailing via a PC, not his Mac laptop.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:13:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS / GenCon UK

Just a short note:

BITS will be at GenCon UK (no surprise that) promoting Traveller in all its
incarnations. Planned attaractions include -

- - All (the in print) BITS products at the stall...
....including the new 101 Governments (and hopefully) 101 Religions.
....last few copies of the original 'Long Way Home' unless they go by mail
order first.

- - All the current T4 material.

- - The motherlode!
....it is planned to take the entire BITS collection of old Traveller
material to the show to sell.
....this is to free up some space in the office used for BITS.
....a great opportunity to hunt down old Traveller supplements and rules.

- - Demos of software.
....Infini-V for MacOS.
....More Rob Prior material if we get it in time.

- - 3 RPGA Tournaments, including....
....Nick Munn's long awaited 'Valentine's Rose'
....'Space Dogs'.
....the return of the 'Traveller Fun' game

- - Demo games...
....T4 demos
....possibly GURPS Traveller Demos
....possibly a Full Thrust/Traveller Demo from the Forth Frontier War

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:56:36 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Calling Keven...

Sorry to waste bandwidth...

Keven,

I've been trying to send you my character but it keeps being returned as
undeliverable.

Please contact me directly, 

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:48:01 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Avalon Hill (OT)

Bean counting idiots.

I was reading about the takeover of Avalon Hill by Hasbro on
Gamespot.com.  They cancelled all agreements with developers
for their wargames - a Hasbro manager was reported to have said
that "Anything that takes more than an hour to play can't be
called a game."

Not a clue about what makes a game. They probably think
checkers is too complicated. Sheesh!!!

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 08:38:17 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A quote...

At 05:17 am 8/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>And now, a quote...
>
>We follow orders or people die. We live in a world that has walls 
>and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. 
>
>I have a greater responsibility than you can fathom. You want me 
>on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like Honor, 
>Code, Loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of the life 
>spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have 
>neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man 
>who rises and sleeps under the blanket of freedom of which I 
>provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I 
>would rather you just say, "Thank you," and be on your way. 
>Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand that wall. 
>
>Either way, I don't give a damn about what you think you're entitled
to.
>
>     Colonel Nathan Jessup
>     A Few Good Men  

	Colonel Nathan Jessup was a murdering slimeball bastard trying to
hide his disgrace behind the concepts of "Duty, Honor, Country" and
soiling them in the process.

	Sorry, that's another button of mine.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:18:55 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Islands Cluster History

With regards to Christopher Thrash's excellent work on what the ESA
Long Range Colony Fleet knew, and when they knew it - and the
possibility of ESA colonies in Zarushagar:

Beautiful research work, opens up lots of nice avenues for speculation
and more than one adventure idea. This is exactly the kind of meat
that makes this list most worthwhile to me.

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-)
?st  ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy 
0601

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:14:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds

- -----Original Message-----
From: alvin plummer <aplummer@idirect.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 2:39 AM
Subject: Question: EQ worlds


>Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"
>
>System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
>Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...
>
Accordingto the Atlas 2423 is a client state, concidering it's location,
closer to Imperial worlds than Julian, I'd call it an Imperial Cs?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:08:31 +0100
From: "Joe Fallon" <jfallon@accces.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:55:13 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Question on Rimreach Sector and beyond

In an attempt to place my CT campaign I've been playing with Galactic. Since
my campaign is a bit heretical I long ago placed it out near the Rim. In
looking at the map I see Rimreach sector, with no information. Is there any
Cononical references to this sector that I can check? I'm attempting to
determine the route a "lost colony" would take following the Fall of the
RoM.

I'm also concidering placing a new sector beyond Rimreach, with a "rift" of
planetless stars stretching from Spinward to Trailing. This would also
expain the fact that graphical maps show the Aslan. Sol Confed, and Hiver
territories all "ending" with their Rimward boarders basically parallel
(realizing of course that this was done originally when the first maps were
drawn, probably at the edge of the paper used).

Of course this is only relavent to MTU but I'm interested in comments.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 17:30:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill (OT)

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:48:01 -0400, Walter Smith wrote:

> Bean counting idiots.
> 
> I was reading about the takeover of Avalon Hill by Hasbro on
> Gamespot.com.  They cancelled all agreements with developers
> for their wargames - a Hasbro manager was reported to have said
> that "Anything that takes more than an hour to play can't be
> called a game."
> 
> Not a clue about what makes a game. They probably think
> checkers is too complicated. Sheesh!!!

Gee, World Cup soccer/football is watched by nearly one quarter of the
planet and it "takes more than an hour to play" one game.  I guess it shows
you what 1+ billion people know...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:35:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep 

> At 12:22 AM 8/15/1998 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ah, gotcha.
> >
> >Is the data in the old PE archives somewhere tho?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Go through the stuff that was in the APPROVED
> directory. That had a lot of the historical
> material Hans had worked up.
> 
> You can run a search for Soloman Economic Sphere
> on any unzipped file. That should turn up
> what you're looking for.

Found some of it, digging more of it up as I can get to it.

There was some *NIFTY* stuff in that archive.  Too bad they shut the Pocket 
Empires mailing list down.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:07:07 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:33:52 -0400, jlindsay@home.com (James
Lindsay) wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:43:56 GMT, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>> Don't consider this canonical; I couldn't resist the Star Trek
>> reference, and it's positioned so as to (a) have broken an
>> otherwise nice route across that arm of the Lesser Rift, and (b)
>> enable one of the other systems in that subsector to have been
>> colonized.  If you don't like it, consider it to be the blank hex
>> that it was when I got the data.

>Hey Jeff, would you mind clarifying something for me?  By point (a) above,
>can I assume that nebulae can block jump routes?  I suppose this makes a
>certain amount of sense, since it might be difficult to arrive at a point
>within a nebula that was "100 diameters" from *all* of the nearby gaseous
>matter bitz...

By "blocking" the jump route I mean, in this case, that the
planet/system that would have enabled a nice route across that
arm of the lesser rift is simply no longer there, having been
converted into part of the shell of gasses that presents the
appearance of a colorful ring.

By now, the nebular matter probably isn't all that much more
dense than vacuum.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:39:59
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Sample Grav Recon Bike

Warning : Ditzie (1) speak and design sequence abuse follows. Well, there
isnt as much design system abuse as usual. At this point.

Helllooooooooooo .... weeeeeee've been asked to build a reeeeecon gravvie
wavvie bikie wikie. An we're goanna build it at techie-weckie ten, so
weeeee can have it built most anywhere, cept for those really riiiiiillly
boooooring places.

Weeeee should mention that weeeeeeve been playing-waying with
gravity-wavity wave detectors rigged up to counter-battery wattery
artilllllllery, an an an contra gravity wavity puts out gravity wavity
waves so weeeee'd use propellors, if ourselfie welfie was on the bikie
wikie. All you hafta worry about then is sound an iiiiiiiiii-arrrrrrrr an
an an the visuuuuuual spectrum itself. An an an it's easier to paint
something black an an an hiiiiiiide in the dark than hide gravity-wavity
wavie-wavies.

But iffff you're riiilllly rilllly rillly sure that the baddie-waddies wont
have gravitic-wavitic scanner-wanners, then feeeeeeeel free to use contra
gravity wavity. But Iiiiiiii wouldnt.

Okie. So the first thingy wingy we need is a hypersonic streeeeamlined
shellie-wellie. Weeeee reckon that 7 cuuubic meeters in a short rounded
cyliner-wilinger is the way to go. That is 3.35m long an an an 1.67m in the
other diiiiirections, so it's 20.355 squaaare meters, so one millimeter of
liiight composite-wompisite laminate plus tennnn geees of structure-wucture
will be two hunnerd kiiilos. Weeeee then add some stealthy-wealthy
coatings, which will cost one hunnerd an twenny free kilo-wilo cwedits and
make it rillly rillly really black. Or infra-pink. Or have it in
riiiiilllly pretty patterns. Preeeeetttyyyy ...

Weeeee then add two hunnerd kiiilos of contra gravity wavity, providing
tennnnnn kilonewtons of thrust, of which you can use onnnnnne point twoooo
horizontalllllly. This costs two hunnerd cwedits an an an demands seeeeeven
kiiiilowatts.

Weeeee then add a fiiifty kiiiilos of fuuuueeelll cells (2), which will
provide twenny fiiive kilo-willo watts of pooooower an an an cost one
thousand kilo-wilo cwedits an an an use point zeeero seven fiiiiive cuuubic
meters of fuelie-wulie per hour at fuuuuullll power. Weeee'l add zero
poooint three cuuuubic meeeters of aiitch geee aitch ceeeee deee masssing
two hunnerd seventy kiiilos an an an costing threee hunnerd cwedits.

Then we put in avionics an an an fliiiight avionics so you can go
closie-wosie to the groundie woundie at one hunnnerd an forty kilomter
wometers an hour. Weeee reckon you shoudl turn this offie-woffie an an an
calculate velocities in your headie-weadie, but those MEEEEAN mothers
against gwav bike caaaaaarnage wont let us *pout*. An an an they can set
the Navie-wavie on on on us if they wanna.

Booooth sorts of avionic-wonics add up to fooorty one kiiilos an an an cost
forty seven thousand cwedits. They will neeed fiiiiiive kilo-willo watts of
pooooower when turned on.

Then we addie-waddie iiiintergral position-wisioning, so you can telll
where you aaare, but Iiiiiii reckon this isnt that usefull, coz you'll
aaaalways beeee fifty centimeters offf the groundie-woundie at one hunnerd
forty kilometers an hour. It costs fiiiive kilocwedits and masses one
kiiiilo an an an demands one half a kiiiilowatt.

Then we addie-waddie a ceee-peee one computer-wuter and and and it's fully
functional an not one of those silly fliiiight ones. It masses 4 kiiilos,
costs nine hunnerd cwedits and need threeeee point one kilowatts.

Then we addie waddie a fifty kilometer wometer vehicle passive sensor,
which takes tennnn kiiiilos an an an costs fiiiifty thousand cwedits. It
neeeds zero point one kiiiilowatts.

Then weeee add a wooorkstation, massing twooooo hunnerd kiiilos an an an
costing onhe point fiiiive kilocwedits.

This all massie-wassies nine hunnerd kiiiilos, so weeeeee'll figure on nine
hunnerd and fifty so the pilot wilot can take some chhhhhiiiiiiiiiizos.

At nine hunnerd an fifty kiiilos an one point twoooo kiiiilonewtons at a
thrust efficiency of fouuurr point one. Therefore effective-wecktive full
thrust is fiiive point seven eight gees, so the top speeedie weeedie is
nineteen hunnerd an fifty kilometer wometers an hour. Cost is ummmmm two
hunnerd and thirty kilocwedits, an an an there is plenty of spare thrust an
an an internal space for a particle-warticle accelerator or fusion gunnie
wunnie or somethin, if you want it to go slower.

****************************************************************************
********

Woooo. I started with a grav bike, and ended up with something that is
looking suspiciously like a stealthed Vincent Black Shadow crossed with a F16.

Ditzie's comments about gravitic sensors are well made. It is hard to hide
gravity waves, and propellors are lookign better and better for stealth
vehicles.

The design has lots and lots of surplus internal space - about 2 cubic
meters. You could fit an observer or some sort of gun. It is also running a
power surplus of about ummm five kilowatts. Damn. I forgot communicators,
and I'm braindead. Oh yeah. Maneuver enhancement. The Vilani Export Version
would include two more redundant computers. The Vargr export version would
incorporate go-faster stripes, and remove the flight avionics for the extra
Charisma boost. The Sayat Export Version would include a drinks cabinet and
use the waste heat from the fuel cells to run a Jet Bong (tm). The Sayat
Export Model v2 would include a small jacuzzi and a Vibrating Workstation.
I'd better stop now.

Ian Whitchurch

(1) Ditzammer Spofulam ... a 7 year old engineering genius who does far too
many little yellow pills, and spends faaaaar too much time communing with
her CAD station. Also Executive Vice-President of Famile Spofulam's High
Energy Solutions branch. Also thought to be more evidence of why the
Imperium gave up on geneeering projects.

(2) The Abomination Known As Fusion Plus would be more efficient, but
Famile Spofulam refuses to use it as a matter of corporate policy, due to
the feud with Zhunatsu Corp going back to well before his granpappy killed
our great great granpappy, an we Spofulams dont forget things like that.
And the Imperial Warrant issued to Mothers Against Grav Bike Carnage was
just excessive, OK ?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:19:16 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [T98#742] Question: EQ worlds

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:33:52 -0400, "alvin plummer"
<aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

>Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"

>System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
>Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...

It's listed in Gal (and therefore the data that I got it from) as
a non-member of the Protectorate, but a client state of them.

>Also, that supernova at BEta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
>be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova 
>was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...

As I wrote to the last person that asked about it, consider it
non-canonical, and treat it as an empty hex if you don't like it.
I added it for two reasons: (1) Couldn't resist the Star Trek
reference, and (2) made a convenient explanation for the
existence of an inhabited planet that was better than J6 from its
nearest neighbor.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:38:47 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: UWP's for EQ

Jeff Z, if you still have the UWP listings for Empty Quarter, 
could you email them to me?  The listings in Galatic 2.4 don't
have stellar information....

Thanks,
  Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 17:10:09 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Contacting John Harshman

Does anyone know whether John Harshman (formerly of GDW) lurks on this
list, or have a point of contact for him?  I'd like to address some
questions on the original design of the Islands Clusters Campaign directly
to him.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:58:54 +0100
From: "Joe Fallon" <jfallon@accces.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:07:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

In mail you write:

> I'd like to add one possible name to the list o ground pounders... Raj
> Whitehall fro S. M. Stirling and David Drakes "The General" series. At the
> later stages of the series he might be an excellent choice for overall
> command of theground units, even if he operated on a low tech world. Of
> course the fact that he is being helped by the computer Sector Command and
> Control Unit AZ12-b14-c000 Mk. XIV would allow him to understand an
> integrate the "modern" units into his strategy.

Oh lord! You've just given me a truly *evil* idea. Picture the
Reformation Coalition (I think that's the name) from TNE trying to
annex a newly recontacted planet. The one that Raj is "Governor" on.
:-)

Talk about nightmares for the players. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:12:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

In mail you write:

>> Mind you, in the case of some of the more schizophrenic megacorps,
>> this could still lead to years of legal wrangling before the two
>> distant subsidaries realized they were, in fact, parts of the same
>> company.

> And it wouldn't make a difference on the outcome!
>
> IRL - there is a major oil company that a friend of mine did some consulting
> work for.  It consists of 5 major business units, and the infighting is
> fierce.  Part of what he (and the team he was a member of) were trying to do
> was migrate them to a new e-mail system.  Most of the problems that they had
> to overcome came from the fact that each business unit had it's own IT
> department, and none were willing to subordinate themselves to any of the
> others.  Each department had to literally be ordered to make the concessions
> necessary from way, way up on high, and each decision was fought (from what
> I heard) all the way up to the VP level (probably exaggerated, I'm sure not
> *every* decision was contested that high...)
>
> The main problem is that the business units were, in essence, competitors
> within the corporate framework.  And since they are not competing in the
> open market, but behind the corporate front, only corporate policy
> constrains their actions.
>
> OBTrav - just how nasty would a internal megacorporate conflict get?

Ask anyone who's read Heinlein's "Friday". For those that haven't,
sorry, I can't say much because while it *isn't* the storyline, it
*does* affect important portiions of it.

<FNORD on>
But just remember that there are folks who claim that both world wars
were actually the fallout from internal fights in the Illuminati.
<FNORD off>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #743
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 744



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Underwater Combat
Re: Decimate et alia
Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)
Re: Question: EQ worlds
Re: Honor Harrington
Empty Quarter LIsting: call for comments
Re: Copyright and other fun hobbies
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #743
Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)
Re: Question: EQ worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:26:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater Combat

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Hell, I can even see some planets that are newly contacted deciding
> (correctly, IMNSHO) that orbiting some old battle ships might make a
> good start on a space station. The main guns *will* work in space at
> "short" ranges (ie a few thousand km). They'd be enough to keep
> merchant ships in line. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Hmmmm...didn't someone try this with the  BB Yamamoto?  <g>

Busted!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:15:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

In mail you write:

> Question - Inter-corp warfare is governed under the Articles of War, how 
> would intra-corp infighting be governed?  I mean, if two Oberlindes 
> freighters started launching missiles at each other, would the Imperial 
> Navy step in to stop them?

Given the hassles MegaCorps cause them, I rather suspect that unless
they were *required* to intervene (say, because they were endangering
innocent bystanders) the Imperial forces would just sit back and laugh
themselves silly (while making side bets on the outcome). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:33:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)

In mail you write:

>>>> Its all got to do with the legal concept that "ownership" of
>>>> intellectual property is not transferable (eg you can only sell
>>>> the "rights" to it).

As several have pointe out, the above is explicitly *not* true in the
US. 

>> There is another point which will probably benefit game supplement
>> writers.  A company cannot buy rights to your ideas, only to the
>> article in which you express those ideas. So, if you developed an
>> alien race for Traveller, the Shoaojin, and sold an article on the
>> Shoaojin to a publisher whom you have a falling out with, you can
>> write a new article on the Shoaojin, keeping your creative work and
>> research and sell it to whomever you wish. The mean publisher owns
>> your first article, you own the Shoaojin.

>> If the original, mean publisher hires someone to write an article on
>> the Shoaojin without your permission, you can sue them for poaching
>> your idea.  If you can produce your development notes for the
>> Shoaojin, and if the publisher fails to prove that the Shoaojin
>> exist in reality and therefore are free for anyone to write about,
>> you will have a good case.

>         This is correct if you are talking about a simple copyright
> to a written story.  However, there are other tools and scenarios
> that make this more complex.  For example, if you sold the mean
> publisher the right to trademark the word "Shoaojin," you will have
> to rename your aliens before you publish a story anywhere else.  You
> can also sign over rights to unwritten works, sign non-competition
> agreements, and a host of other things.  Under American law, at
> least, just about anything goes if the contract says so.

And in some case the contracts back-fire on publishers. For example,
the contracts Heinlein signed with at least one publisher had a
"lifetime" clause of some sort in them. So Heilein made arrangements
with his wife, and shortly after he died (and the rights reverted to
her) she dug out the versions *without* certain editorial changes he'd
disagreed with and submitted them to a different publisher. They were
promptly published and it's generally considered that Heinlein was
correct about the changes having been stupid. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:49:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds

In mail you write:

> Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"
>
> System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
> Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...
>
> Also, that supernova at BEta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
> be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova 
> was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...

They aren't that rare. There's about one supernova VISIBLE TO THE NAKED
EYE every 500-1000 years in the galaxy. Telescopicly we observe several
a *year*. 

A galaxy has a *lot* of stars.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:37:33 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Honor Harrington


>In mail you write:
>
>Oh lord! You've just given me a truly *evil* idea. Picture the
>Reformation Coalition (I think that's the name) from TNE trying to
>annex a newly recontacted planet. The one that Raj is "Governor" on.
>:-)
>
>Talk about nightmares for the players.
>
Shadow,

You are a truely evil Ref!!! I wish I lived close enough to play in THAT
scenario!! Of course, it would be a "disposable" character, since I expect
the next scenario would involve new ones, but what a party while they
lasted!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:53:25 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Empty Quarter LIsting: call for comments

OK, here it is!
Complete with stellar information....

More commentary to follow, as time allows....

Empty Quarter, 1115 Imperial
(c) 1998 by Alvin Plummer
A Engarmi
B Daskomo
C Link
D Kosh
E Requiem
F Flandry
G Cotan
H Nisaga
I Lentuli
J Tsuchida
K Hebrin
L Beta Niobe
M Nulinad
N Tairtsu
O Irash
P Nosso Nosso
***************************************************************************
# Empty Quarter / Classic Era Galaxy
#
#PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al Stellar
#----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- -- -------
Amagasaki     0110 C656623-6    Ag Ni C:3          910 Jr M3 V M8 D
Nightraven    0111 D581402-5    Lo Ni              800 Jr M5 V M2 D
Shockwave     0116 C7A0637-8    De Ni              101 Jr M2 III
Teutoburger...0127 B574546-9    Ag Ni C:0          902 Im K2 V
Waskuei       0128 A130334-C    Lo Ni Po De        323 Im G1 V M9 D M6 D
Asaklon V     0132 B400377-8    Lo Ni Va           614 Im M4 V M4 D
El Quahira    0134 B26138C-B    Lo Ni              914 Im M8 V
Rundeau       0138 A787777-6    Ag Ri              821 Im K0 V
ZUKHISA       0139 B556998-A    Hi                 713 Im M9 V
Longshot      0140 D435364-3  S O:0139             614 Im M3 V M6 D M5 D
Orzabal       0201 C673102-8    Lo Ni              223 Jr M6 V M2 D
Arrikeshmundin0204 B372352-7    Lo Ni           R  501 Jr M0 V M8 D
Pax Deorum    0205 B8B058A-8    De Ni              122 Jr M9 V
Iipkhudi      0206 A472511-B    Ni                 812 Jr M7 III
IKON          0208 C668986-8    Hi Ni              514 Jr M4 V
Vrafavgag Tak 0213 B777643-4    Ag Ni           A  614 Jr K2 III
T'Pring       0216 E584679-0    Ag Ni Ri           201 Jr M4 V
St. David's...0227 B510435-7    Lo Ni              602 Im K0 IV M2 V M3 D
MIKIK         0228 X450998-6    Hi Po In        R  402 Im G9 IV
Thessalia     0229 A415244-D    Lo Ni              903 Im M8 V
Toyama        0231 C557550-6    Ag Ni              603 Im K3 D M5 D
Ci Xian       0232 D664003-4    Lo Ni              113 Im G0 IV
Iternum       0234 D328578-6    Ni                 201 Im M7 V
Iigaashigiri  0238 B200244-8    Lo Ni Va           200 Im K9 V M9 D
Hildegard     0302 A330756-B    De Na Po           111 Jr G2 V
Edash Mas...  0305 B338478-C    Lo Ni              932 Jr M7 V
Dungii        0308 C201264-9    Ic Lo Ni O:0208    103 Jr K3 V
Kamakura      0311 C9A049C-9    Lo Ni De        A  102 Jr M4 V
Heian-Kyo     0314 B200548-7    Ni Va           A  212 Jr M2 V M2 D
Teikoku       0325 A8C7475-B    Lo De              504 Na M4 V M8 D
Hipper        0327 D656771-5    Ag Ni              120 Im M8 V
Bonotsu       0328 A8B0433-B    Lo De Ni           502 Na K8 IV M8 V
Akec Tedidim  0329 E475231-6    Lo Ni              903 Im M0 V
GUDINA        0334 C53499B-5    Hi In Sw           513 Im M7 V
Carthage      0337 B654724-7    Ag                 213 Im M1 V
NULINAD       0338 A455986-B    Hi Cx              504 Im M0 V
Kashima       0339 C96A864-9    Wa Ri O:0338       602 Im M7 V
Ossa Dal      0340 B344573-8    Ag Ni           A  304 Im M1 IV
Gagiiranur    0406 B320203-8    De Lo Ni Po Na  A  901 Jr M5 V
Shodoshima    0410 C55A879-5    Wa                 511 Jr K3 II M3 V
Nushiimga     0414 C525235-7    Lo Ni           A  400 Jr K9 V  M1 D
Marhaban      0426 A4697DG-E    Cp Sw              801 Im K8 IV
Miser         0435 A213611-A    Na Ni Ic           302 Im M6 V
Nyambii Dal   0439 C75A462-A    Lo Ni Wa O:0338    902 Im F4 IV
Ryt Thoudhutz 0501 C232464-9    Ni Po Lo C2 O:0601 822 Jr A0 IV
Asummirap     0510 B663779-7    Ri                 914 Jr K0 V
Shirakawa     0511 A9B0695-9    De Ni           A  512 Jr M9 V M9 D
Kaadlushuur   0514 A535111-B    Lo Ni Cp        A  704 Jr M7 V M7 D
Lirumriish    0515 A45075A-A    De                 501 Jr G9 V M4 D
ENINSISH      0535 C000ABB-9    As Hi In Na        113 Im M9 V
SASHAR        0536 D59799C-6    Hi In              204 Im K5 V
Huifa         0537 C120322-8    De Lo Ni Po        424 Im M1 V
Maistoelat    0601 A500243-8    De Lo Ni Va        704 Jr M0 V K0 D
Solstice      0605 C99A466-9    Ni Wa Lo Mr        300 Jr M4 V
Tsu           0613 C55289B-5    Po                 602 Jr K5 V
Turas Mor     0616 C231350-7    Lo Ni Na Po        911 Jr K9 V
Janowski      0617 C549412-8    Lo Ni              104 Jr K2 II
Azetbur       0620 A211534-C    Ni                 803 Na M1 V M9 V M3 D
Dimashq       0627 E230521-5    Ni Po De           701 Im M6 V M2 D
Nihon Station 0630 C899654-8  S Ni                 203 Im M6 V M8 D
Pacifica      0632 A367788-B    Ri Ag              813 Im G2 III M2 V
Gigdubarga    0633 B5688BB-4                       134 Im K8 IV M5 D M4 D
Blackglobe    0636 D7C0353-8    Lo De Ni           122 Im M3 D M3 D
RASU          0637 C760997-6    De Hi              304 Im M0 V
Cleon         0638 A98879B-A    Ag Ri           A  305 Im K0 V M1 D
Shiikuus      0640 D539849-6                       813 Im M7 V
Mirukuseki    0704 C437697-8    Ni                 403 Jr K6 V
Okayama       0705 A634422-8    Lo Ni              903 Jr K3 V
Hyuga         0706 DS00000-7    Lo Va              402 Jr K0 V M4 D
Engarmi       0709 A330444-E    De Ni Lo Cp     A  812 Jr G9 V
Isumo         0711 A888878-7    Ri              A  204 Jr M8 V M9 D
Afer Ventus   0715 E643786-1    Po              R  513 Jr M1 III
Osumi Shoto   0728 C221353-7    Lo Na Po           130 Im K5 IV M9 D
Resurrection  0729 D300244-7  S Lo Na Va           402 Im M0 V
Ayachuco      0732 C890515-8  S De Ni              914 Im M1 V M4 D
Simon's Ball  0738 C66468A-5  S Ni Ag Ri           913 Im K3 V
Siidkirgumar  0805 E542453-6    Lo Ni Po           403 Jr M4 V M4 D
Urshem        0809 DAC05DE-A    De Po              420 Jr K5 V M6 D
Gashige       0811 A3384BJ-C    Lo Ni              912 Jr G2 V M9 D
Itsukushim    0812 D453320-6    Lo Ni Po           101 Jr M0 V
Igura Shiim...0813 C413111-5    Ic Lo Ni           304 Jr M6 V
Li Changhun   0828 C88A112-9    Lo Ni Wa           403 Im M7 IV M7 D
Li Yingkou    0829 E300300-6    Lo Ni Va           700 Im K0 V
Li Chifeng    0830 B98A677-A    Lo Ni Wa           802 Im M7 V M7 D
ARAKAAD       0833 E4659BC-7    Hi                 502 Im M7 D
Province      0834 B6157B7-9  N Ic              A  104 Im K5 V
Isii Shiikuus 0836 D512367-A    Lo Ni Ic O:0638    613 Im M4 V
Tungokl       0837 A253432-9    Lo Ni Po           404 Im G0 V
Chubu         0839 C7A0646-8    De Ni              405 Im G3 V
Kyogasaki     0840 C775467-3  S Lo Ni O:Ley 1002   303 Im M5 V
Mekhigk       0903 C8A0303-A    De Lo Ni        A  703 Jr M4 V M8 D M2 D
Graithairekt  0905 C65479B-5    Ag C:2             202 Jr K5 V
Donegal       0906 B528578-7    Ni                 200 Jr M4 V M4 D
Ori Sau'      0907 C6328DD-3    Na Po Sw           600 Jr M7 V M7 D
Kaa Eshiisagii0912 A333331-B    Lo Ni Po        A  711 Jr M0 V
Li Yichang    0931 A889435-A  N Lo Ni              103 Im M3 V M9 D
Sarbaz's Tomb 0932 C773000-0    Ba                 011 Im K1 V M2 D
Delta Three   0936 D401598-8  S Ic Ni Va        R  311 Im M5 V M8 D
Bakimidiim    0940 E4537A9-5    Po C:1          A  330 Im K1 V
Ryt Fgugaiks  1003 C62A563-9    Ni Wa O:1004    A  305 Jr M8 V
Yelloworld    1004 B301430-A    Ni Va Lo           701 Jr A1 II G1 D
Chalcis       1013 D353569-4    Ni Po O:0912       103 Jr G3 D G1 D
Kurayoshi     1030 C8B07A9-F    De RsA          A  304 Im K7 V
Kushiro       1031 C86A578-9  S Ni Wa              604 Im K3 V
Sao Sapele    1035 AAC0458-B    Lo De Ni RsB    R  413 Im M7 V
Ming Po Toi   1036 C462226-7    Lo Ni              224 Im M6 IV M6 D
Urpirur       1037 B7B0349-7    De Lo Ni           400 Im M4 V M4 V
Emblem        1038 CAA0441-8    Lo De Ni           114 Im M6 V M5 D
Micomicon     1039 E645442-5    Lo Ni              704 Im M0 V
Old Shire     1040 C140201-6    De Lo Ni Po        900 Im M0 V
Ori Bjo'tim   1103 C5358CA-3    Sw                 614 Jr M3 V
Shori         1105 B655765-5    Ag Mr              512 Jr M2 V M2 D
Gakishinnu    1106 A87A323-9    Lo Ni Wa           303 Na M4 IV
Koromogawa    1107 D44738A-A    Ag                 603 Jr M8 V
Banka Banka   1109 D735245-7    Lo Ni              203 Na K3 V M9 D
Old Base      1110 E7A0752-8    De                 702 Jr K9 D M9 D
Diefenbaker   1129 A210522-C    Ni                 404 Im G9 V M7 D
Arabia        1130 D648443-5  S Lo Ni              310 Im M3 V M3 D
Davenport     1133 A868878-A    Ri              A  520 Im M3 V M6 D
Fair Haven    1137 C459756-6    Ni                 602 Im M9 III
Oboda         1139 A6A5655-9    Fl Ni              401 Im A3 V
Gaashi Diidu  1205 B78A101-D    Lo Ni Wa An     R  720 Jr M1 V
Gaashi Mukipu 1206 A486799-A    Ag Ri D:4 Cp       703 Jr M8 V
Sagumanka     1208 X787896-0    Ri Sw           R  213 Jr G6 V M2 D
Urusi         1211 B697154-8    Lo Ni              911 Jr M4 V
Nidakha       1213 C7B0575-9    De Ni           A  511 Na M3 V
Nalaki        1214 B69988A-7                    A  801 Na K7 V M4 D
Tarascon      1228 B774567-B    Ag Ni O:1328       523 Im M5 V
Sio'mawasi    1229 C7C0874-6  S De Sw              805 Im M5 V M4 D
Narada        1230 A757744-7    Ag                 702 Im M2 II
LAZISAR       1233 B887974-9  N Hi Cp              512 Im M4 III
Asia          1235 A337441-A    Lo Ni           A  204 Im K6 V
Decius        1236 C774000-0    Ba                 000 Im K5 V
Gusshi E      1237 C1136BG-8    Na Ni Ic        A  604 Im M3 V M8 D K1 D
Nahur         1238 C86778B-7    Ag Ri              913 Im M8 V M6 D
Higashiosaka  1239 B140113-7    Lo Ni De Po        402 Im G8 V M7 D
Takada        1301 B97A475-C    Lo Ni Wa        A  412 Jr M7 V
Mattweed      1303 C210122-7    Lo Ni              325 Jr M7 V K7 D
Kurikara      1306 D573776-5                       603 Na M0 V
Numigimar     1307 A7C7200-C    Lo Ni Fl        A  405 Na K0 V
Karam Imuk... 1308 D797436-5    Lo Ni           A  413 Jr G7 V M3 D
Ksedhing      1309 C574574-7    Ag Ni              504 Na K7 V M2 D
Mishiguggekhi 1311 CAB0899-8    De                 611 Na M2 V M3 D
OUTPOST       1315 E869987-8    Hi                 905 Jr K5 V M9 D M8 D
Yamaguchi     1326 B433214-A    Lo Ni Po           510 Im M3 V
Aswan         1328 A420432-B    Lo Ni Po De Cp     803 Im M3 V M3 D
Listualro     1329 C443320-6    Lo Ni Po           823 Im K1 V M8 D
Tuscany       1331 A9C0364-A    De Lo Ni O:1228    403 Im K6 V M4 D
Capercaillie  1332 D413754-7    Na Ic           A  624 Im G8 V
Delmar        1337 C140310-8    Lo Ni De Po        100 Im K4 V M4 D
Capasitator   1408 C51007A-6    De Na Ni           301 Jr K6 V
TOKITRE       1411 B780953-8  N De Hi              203 Cs F4 D M2 D
St. Dimurra   1413 E242110-3    Lo Ni Po        A  800 Na K7 V
Enaniirshad   1415 B8B0430-D    Lo Ni De           513 Cs M8 V
Chisholm      1427 B84A212-8    Lo Ni Wa           603 Im G5 V
Kitayushu     1429 C501203-7    Lo Ni Va Ic        603 Im F9 V
Goto Retto    1430 E8A6563-6    Ni Fl O:1328       804 Im M7 V
GIMUSHI       1431 D54AAA9-8    Hi In Wa           124 Im K8 V
O'Donnell     1436 B500385-6    Lo Na Ni Va        615 Im M6 V M6 D
Pekryaay      1501 B100000-D    Lo Va Dw           403 Na G3 V
Dyrys         1510 C77A457-8    Lo Ni Wa           904 Na M3 V M7 D
Dipkusulimir  1515 E626334-8    Lo Ni              901 Na M8 V
Pons Aelius   1520 C748355-8    Lo Ni              322 Na G9 V
Cobweb Station1527 A774334-8    Lo Ni              914 Im M0 V M0 D
Dotilla       1529 B140644-8    Ni Po De           905 Im M5 V
Starsky       1530 E338686-8    Ni                 214 Im M4 1a M4 D
Fur Elise     1531 C221032-7    Lo Ni Po           604 Im M9 V
Mu            1533 B677666-6    Ag Ni C:5 O:1537   804 Im M1 IV
PAMUSHGAR     1537 C680986-6    De Hi              202 Im M8 V
Khal I        1539 E57468C-5    Ag Ni C:2          603 Im M0 V
Ryukyu        1540 B7A0478-9    Lo De Ni           522 Im M0 V M6 D
Nuususush     1601 EAC0536-2    De Ni              814 Na M6 V M6 D
Gakalar       1602 A5637AB-6    D:2                215 Na G8 IV M4 V
Cimated       1608 B300325-9    Lo Ni Va        A  510 Na M5 III
Lodi Cykidasas1609 C7A0454-9    Lo De Ni           404 Cs M9 V M4 D
Guarda        1611 D530122-7    De Lo Ni Po        403 Cs M7 V
Smaointe      1616 D99A586-6    Ni Wa              502 Na M3 V M3 D M8 D
Togo          1619 A000898-B    As Na              610 Na G8 IV
Schulz        1631 B545422-7    Lo Ni Ex        A  312 Im G2 V
Timark City   1633 C472564-6    Ni O:1733          703 Im G8 V
Saint Ashley  1635 B230666-7    De Na Ni Po        302 Im K1 V M1 D
SSILNTHIS     1704 C7689B9-7    Hi                 413 Na M0 IV M3 D M9 V
Muso          1726 A232023-9  N De Lo Ni Po        203 Im K6 V
MUGAMA        1728 E8699AA-A    Hi              A  203 Im M0 V
Makarou       1729 B596444-A    Lo Ni              802 Im K4 V M5 D
Survivors     1730 D8A6103-7    Lo Ni Fl           813 Im M8 V
Akrotiri      1731 B424521-9    Ni                 404 Im K9 V
Hateruma      1733 C24458C-8    Ag Ni           A  603 Im M6 V
Baleartics    1734 E412365-7    Ic Lo Ni O:1733    415 Im M7 V
The Hundred   1737 C644697-2    Ag Ni              303 Im M5 V
Newsphere     1738 A454877-B    Ri Cp           A  405 Im M0 V M0 D
Vision        1803 C8D8574-4    Ni              A  413 Na M9 V M4 D
Motaselad     1804 B574572-6    Ag Ni D:5          502 Na K3 V M0 D
Yaku Jima     1809 C9A0000-0    Ba De           A  025 Na K4 V
Wabiskaw      1810 C535145-5    Lo Ni              905 Na M2 V
Hanna         1811 C7A5459-7    Lo Ni              601 Cs M6 V K6 D
Florianopolis 1816 B100511-C    Ni Va              204 Na K7 V M9 D
Omerta        1826 E9B066A-6    De Ni O:1930       404 Im A3 V K3 D
Nieuwould     1830 E585598-2    Ag Ni              900 Im K4 V
Pegasus       1831 E529555-6    Ni                 905 Im K5 V
Yonaguni's....1833 D445421-4    Lo Ni              803 Im M8 V M8 D
Senkaku       1836 B51368B-9    Na Ni Ic        A  901 Im M7 V
BELUMAR       1838 E693942-8    Hi In              201 Im G2 V
Delibes       1901 A3308A7-A    De Na Po        A  400 Na K6 IV
Jamnagar Thal 1905 D411556-7    Ni                 604 Hl M2 V
Port Wsi      1911 C84859B-8    Ni                 210 Hl G3 V
Talcanuano    1913 C573330-4    Lo Ni              401 Na K0 IV
Miyazaki      1923 C6A7242-5    Lo Ni Fl           320 Na K4 V
HEBRIN        1930 B250975-E  N Hi Cp              513 Im M8 V M1 D
Golden Ring   1932 ER00320-B    Lo Ni Va           224 Im A7 IV M7 D
Silvermoon    1934 D420100-4    De Lo Ni Po        232 Im M2 V M2 D
Pargo         1937 D68A664-2    Ni Wa Ri O:2036    504 Im G7 II M8 D
Gangetic      2001 A20049C-A    Ni Va              404 Hl M8 V G8 D
Siiye         2005 C9A9550-8    Fl Ni              200 Hl M0 V M5 D
FLANGE        2009 B443933-7    Lo Ni Po Cp        114 Hl M4 V
Lullaby       2010 C584773-6    Ag Ri C:2          902 Na K2 V M4 D
Reptile       2016 A648679-6    Ag Ni              204 Na M3 V M0 D
Pynchan       2030 A257640-8    Ag Ni              312 Im M5 V
Tsarina       2032 B000405-C  N Lo Ni As           613 Im M3 V
IRASH         2036 C579A98-7    Hi In           A  201 Im M8 V
Poisoned Earth2037 E783335-5    Lo Ni              703 Im M2 V
Dimitri       2038 B211101-8    Lo Ni              300 Im M3 IV M3 D
Edenvale      2039 D4697B9-6  S                 A  702 Im M2 II M2 D
Mikaichi      2103 A53836A-B    Lo Ni Pr Mr     R  304 Hl M5 V M0 D
Hijoji        2109 C515388-6    Lo Ni Ic           611 Hl K5 V
Dalnegovo     2111 E679633-6    Ni                 804 Cs M8 V M8 D
Dannoura      2113 A1014CE-7    Lo Va Ic           900 Cs G0 V
Hokkaido      2128 C610556-8    Na                 112 Im K8 V
Tshane Eiseb  2129 BAA9533-B    Ni Fl              800 Im G0 V
Venda         2130 C330510-6    Ni Po De           113 Im M6 V K6 D
Borden's Star 2134 B434421-6    Lo                 800 Im G9 V
Amamioshima   2138 C642486-7    Lo Po              115 Im A7 V
Whirligig     2201 C230455-7    Lo De Ni Po        204 Hl K4 V M8 D
Aynoiye       2202 B301126-9    Lo Ni Po Va Ic     504 Hl M0 V
V'nen         2203 A322625-8    Na Ni Po           423 Hl M3 V M3 D
Imagine       2204 D624331-7    Lo Ni              102 Hl F5 V
COTAN         2212 C4289AG-A    Hi In              313 Hl M2 V M4 D
Cometela      2227 B78A48A-9    Lo Ni Wa           514 Im K8 V
Painted Orb   2230 C434675-9    Ni                 404 Im M7 IV M8 D
Signet        2237 A7836BE-7    Ni                 413 Im K4 V
d'Anticosti   2313 C98A8A9-5    Wa              R  621 Hl M5 III M5 V
Lothlorien    2314 D87369E-7    Ni                 324 Hl M6 V M2 D
Gekko         2316 X413000-0    Ba Ic           R  024 Hl G4 V M1 D
Rethmnon      2331 A234210-A    Lo Ni RsG          100 Im M6 V
Disarid       2402 C798278-6    Lo Ni              102 Hl A8 V Ga D
JUSTINCE      2405 D546AEG-9    Hi In           A  504 Hl M4 V
Binnoth       2406 E717000-0    Ba Ic           A  023 Hl M3 V
Endicott      2407 E536334-6    Lo Ni              122 Hl G7 IV M1 D
Abey Tomsk    2410 C527411-7    Lo Ni C:0          914 Hl M3 V M2 D
Suchan        2411 D5698DG-6                       905 Hl K7 IV
Cabal         2412 C3118AE-8    Na              A  701 Hl G3 V M6 D
Valentin      2413 B5265AF-7    Ni              A  505 Hl M1 IV M1 D
Chugoku       2423 X000430-4    Lo Ni As        R  600 Cs G1 V M5 D
Silence       2428 A225345-C    Lo Ni              701 Im M3 II
Okinoerabu    2431 C000757-8    Na As              722 Im M5 V
Muskoka       2434 A200110-B    Lo Ni Va           201 Im M4 V
Titanic       2503 E85A336-6    Lo Ni Wa           600 Hl M5 IV M6 D
Isatetiri     2504 A7368BF-A                    A  803 Hl M6 V
Nagaoka       2508 C567521-7    Ag Ni Sw        A  700 Hl K8 III
Nagercoil     2511 C440562-8    De Ni Po O:2412    104 Hl M7 V M3 D
Stokebury     2516 C2356A7-7    Ni Ex              514 Hl M2 V
Qonos         2523 A246232-C    Lo Ni              120 Na K4 V M7 D
Amakusa Shoto 2528 D45A667-1    Ni Po Wa O:2529    623 Na M4 IV M4 D
Udaka         2529 BA9A530-A    Ni Wa              411 Na M2 V K2 D
Manado        2536 E537000-0    Ba              A  002 Im K3 V M1 D
Capel Celyn   2605 D523352-7    Lo Ni Po           312 Hl K2 V M0 D
Ysidote       2606 D310677-5    De Na Ni        A  602 Hl G0 V
Tsangpo       2612 B7B0547-6    De Ni              502 Hl M7 V
Catagno       2615 D7A016A-7    De Lo Ni           805 Hl M3 V
Ruins         2618 X415000-0    Ba Ic Lo Ni        004 Na M2 IV
Stopover      2635 A669669-9    Ni Ri O:2434       420 Na M9 IV
Odalacec      2701 C444874-7                       101 Hl M4 V M4 D M6 D
Nimmety       2703 B444013-8    Lo                 404 Hl M7 V
Perseus       2704 B418444-B    Lo Ni Ic           625 Hl M5 IV M2 D
Deciyana      2707 C94A427-8    Lo Ni Wa           111 Hl K9 V
Monolith      2708 B565587-9    Ag Ni              410 Hl G1 V
Coincident    2710 D5327BA-9    Na Po Sw        R  803 Hl G9 V M0 D
Omerinese     2803 BA7A663-6    Ni Wa O:2804       700 Hl A4 V
Parolles      2804 A8688D7-A    Cp                 104 Hl K3 V
Negev         2810 B7A05AB-A    De Ni              813 Hl M8 V K8 D
Redring       2816 E000248-8    As Lo Ni        A  510 Hl M1 V
Nura Dhapuri  2817 D3135A7-8    Ni                 214 Hl M3 V M3 D
O             2839 C4656BC-A                    A  600 Na G1 V M0 D
Cocktail      2903 C401101-9    Lo Ni Ic Va     A  303 Hl K4 V
Ab Sinecal    2904 B547674-9    Ag Ni              203 Hl K8 V M2 D
Kyushu        2906 A2306BD-A    De Na Ni Po An     702 Hl M4 III M4 V
Takeshima     2909 B131337-8    Lo Ni Po        A  924 Hl M4 V
Andria        2911 E000000-0    Ba As           A  012 Hl M5 V
Lily          2913 C3418AB-5    Po Sw           A  903 Hl M0 IV
Cannae        2914 D89A79C-6    Wa                 403 Hl K5 V
Al Ubayyid    2919 B7796BG-8    Ni                 203 Hl A2 IV M2 D
Occusi        2933 A32459B-B    Ni                 120 Na M2 V M2 D
Mirabilia     3001 E3318CC-6    Na Po              614 Hl M0 V M0 D
Akkeshi       3005 B9996BD-6    Ni An              823 Hl M6 V M3 V
Koyasan       3007 B8788B9-7                    A  200 Hl M3 V M0 V
Aegypt        3008 B877897-5                    R  805 Hl K4 V M6 D
Shimonoseki   3012 B663400-B    Lo Ni D:3          304 Na G3 V
Usa           3020 CAB0110-8    De Lo Ni           200 Hl K5 V M5 V
Flutewind     3101 C150432-A    De Ni Po Lo        103 Hl M6 V
Acesymak Caya 3104 B201423-C    Ic Ni Va Lo     A  605 Hl G8 V
Manaung Kyun  3112 B33389A-B    Na Po              703 Hl K6 V
NISAGA        3116 A6699CH-B    Ri Hi Cp        A  410 Hl G8 IV
Hakata        3117 BAC0568-A    De Ni O:3116       502 Hl A8 V
Salayar       3136 B434876-B    Ri Sw              604 Na M0 V
Shepherd Moons3201 C679154-7    Lo Ni              630 Hl M8 V
Toyeloci      3202 B78A8BA-A    Wa Sw              202 Hl G6 V
Waterstone    3206 B79A8AB-6    Wa                 203 Hl G0 V M0 D
Marugame      3208 C100210-9    Na Ni Va           314 Hl M6 V
Crag          3211 C6686BB-6    Ag Ni              820 Hl K5 V M8 D
Mae Hung Son  3212 C9A0203-9    De Lo Ni           701 Hl K3 V
Dazaifu       3216 C9A0612-6    De Ni              614 Hl K9 V
Coreward      3219 C33157B-9    Lo Ni Po        R  700 Hl M4 II
Keirsey       3224 B564011-8    Lo Ni           A  100 Na M1 V M5 D
***************************************************************************
Clayton R. Bush
===============
Size VI stars changed to size V, per TNE errata.

Alvin Plummer
=============
All client states are cocnsidered Imperial C.S.
"Sw" code = native intelligent life

"An" Ancient Site

No nebula in Beta Niobe (offically ...)

Long names...
 Edash Masaaganak (hex 0305): often abbreviated to "Edash" or Edash Mas."
 Karam Imukeshiiza (1308): often abb. as "Karam" or "Karam Imuk."
 Igura Shiimines (0813): often abb. as "Igura" or "Igura Shimm."
 Teutoburger Wald (0127): often abb. as "Teutoburger" or "T'b'g'r Wald"
 St.David's Abbey (0227): often abb.as "St. David's" or "S. Dav. Ab."
 Yonaguni's Star (1833): often abb. as "Yonaguni" or "Yonaguni's" or "Yoni's
Star"
 The Golden Ring (1932): ofen abb. as "The Golden" or "Golden RIng"

Julian Protectorate Trade Routes - all at the coreward end of The Empty
Quater..
 Ornwyll (Antares 3108) <->
          Ikon (EmptyQ 0208) <-> Pax Decorum (0205)<-> Hildegrad (0302)<->
                                 Maistoelat (0601) <-> Lusliki (Antares
0639)
          Ikon <-> Shirakawa (0511) <-> Engarmi (0709) <-> Okayama (0705)
<->
                                 Maistoelat
 Ornwyll (Antares 3108) <-> Tekahiu (3010) <-> Vrafavgag Tak (EmptyQ 0213)
<->
          Kaadlushuur (0514) <-> Igura Shiimines (0813) <-> Urusi (1211) <->
          Tokitre (1411) <-> Cimated (1608) <-> Gaashi Mukipu (1206) <->
          Yelloworld (1004) <-> Okayama (0705)
 Shirakawa (EmptyQ 0511) <-> Kaadlushuur (0514)
 Climated (1608) <-> Flange (2009) <-> Cotan (2212)
 Yelloworld (1004) <-> Mattweed (1303) <-> Gakalar (1602) <-> Ssilnthis
(1704) <->
          Siiye (2005) <-> Flange (2009) <-> Abey Tomsk (2410) <-> Monolith
(2708) <->
          Parolles (2804) <-> Odalacec (2701) <-> Rrole (Amdukan 2539)
 Gvurzghon (Amdukan 3140) <-> Toyeloci (3202) <-> Iigigsu (Star's End 0201)
 Toyeloci (3202) <-> Parolles (2804) <-> Monolith (2708) <-> Negev (2810)
<->
          Shimonoseki (3012) <-> Nisaga (3116) <-> Ir (Star's End 0316)

Imperial X-boat routes (all at the rimward side of the sector: a minor rift
         seperates Julian and Imperial space, running horizontally
         through the centre of the sector)

"The Capital Route" - local name, as it goes through Nulinad, the Sector
Capital.
 Marhaban (0426) <-> Waskuei (0128) <-> Mukusi (Antares 3129) <->
         Asaklon V (EmptyQ 0132) <-> Gudina (0334) <-> Eninsish (0535) <->
         Nulinad (0338)
 At Nulinad, the route forks to both Dini (Antares 3139) and Eldma-Fire (Ley
0201)

"The Box" - local name for the trailing X-boat route.  Also called
  "The Hebrin Cycle",after the dominant world on the route.
 Ryukyu (1540) <-> Oboda (1139) <-> Asia (1235) <-> Lazisar (1233) <->
          Narada (1230) <-> Aswan (1328) <-> Dotilla (1529) <->
          Hebrin (1930) <-> Rethmnon Borden's Star (2134) <-> Irash (2036)
<->
          Newsphere (1738) <-> Ryuku (1540) <-> Xanthare (Ley 1502)

There is also an interface line, Eninsish (0535) <-> Province (0834) <->
          Lazisar (1233), connecting the Capital Route and the Box.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:55:17 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright and other fun hobbies

Vince Blackburn wrote:

> -- Vince J. Blackburn, esq.

Uh oh.  Looks like there is a real lawyer on the list, assuming Vince
uses "esquire" to denote membership in the bar.

bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:01:12 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #743

Or one of mine -
Olie "bastard" North = Nathan Jessup

16 years time in service... and that scuzball make me regret each one each
time I see pix of him in his marine uniform...

And I'm only army...

William





> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 08:38:17 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> Subject: Re: A quote...
> 
> At 05:17 am 8/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >And now, a quote...
> >
> >We follow orders or people die. We live in a world that has walls
> >and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns.
> >
> >I have a greater responsibility than you can fathom. You want me
> >on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like Honor,
> >Code, Loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of the life
> >spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have
> >neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man
> >who rises and sleeps under the blanket of freedom of which I
> >provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I
> >would rather you just say, "Thank you," and be on your way.
> >Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand that wall.
> >
> >Either way, I don't give a damn about what you think you're entitled
> to.
> >
> >     Colonel Nathan Jessup
> >     A Few Good Men
> 
>         Colonel Nathan Jessup was a murdering slimeball bastard trying to
> hide his disgrace behind the concepts of "Duty, Honor, Country" and
> soiling them in the process.
> 
>         Sorry, that's another button of mine.
> - -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:06:49 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright (was Decimate et alia)

Gordon Horne wrote:

> So, if you developed an alien race for Traveller, the
> Shoaojin, and sold an article on the Shoaojin to a publisher whom you
> have
> a falling out with, you can write a new article on the Shoaojin,
> keeping
> your creative work and research and sell it to whomever you wish. The
> mean
> publisher owns your first article, you own the Shoaojin.

Yes, but . . .be careful about trademark issues.  If the Shoaojin
effectively become a trademark for the publisher, you could be prevented
from publishing anything using that trademark, and thus, lose your
rights to do anything with the Shoaojin.  Trademark and copyrights are
getting into overlapping and confusing areas these days and even the
courts can't keep them straight in some cases.  The answers are unclear
at best.  So, be careful and read what you sign.  ;-)

> If the original, mean publisher hires someone to write an article on
> the
> Shoaojin without your permission, you can sue them for poaching your
> idea.

No, but . . .If the Shoaojin has effectively become a trademark for you,
then maybe yes.
Otherwise, its very doubtful.  Intellectual property doesn't protect
ideas, except in patents.
Using the name Shoaojin may be within the doctrine of "Fair use" in the
US law.

> If you can produce your development notes for the Shoaojin, and if the
>
> publisher fails to prove that the Shoaojin exist in reality and
> therefore
> are free for anyone to write about, you will have a good case.

This sounds like misappropriation, which isn't really a copyright
issue.  Misappropriation is a common law state law action, and isn't
available in some states.  Another extremely murky area.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:08:39 -0700
From: "Dean A.Cook" <wolv@powernet.net>
Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds

I'm new to the traveller mailing list but here is your answer to planet 2423
in the empty quarter. Referance is from GDW's Atlas of the Imperium.Empty
quarter planet 2423  asteroidsx-class starport and designation
CS-(client-states are systems which have aligned themselves with the
Imperium. They are friendly to the Imperium, often tied by trade or
non-aggression treaties. In some cases, Imperial bases are present.    End
of notation. Hope this helps you. I've been playing traveller since it first
came out.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds


>In mail you write:
>
>> Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"
>>
>> System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
>> Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...
>>
>> Also, that supernova at BEta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
>> be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova
>> was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...
>
>They aren't that rare. There's about one supernova VISIBLE TO THE NAKED
>EYE every 500-1000 years in the galaxy. Telescopicly we observe several
>a *year*.
>
>A galaxy has a *lot* of stars.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #744
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 745



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

EQ thanks, Apology for quote
Supernova (Re: Question: EQ worlds)
Re: Avalon Hill (OT)
Re: EQ:Supernovas (and a bit of the Beyond):  EQ question
Re: Avalon Hill (OT)
Summer's over...
Re: Supernova (Re: Question: EQ worlds)
Re: Summer's over... 
Re: Dean Files Grav Bikes
Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
[T98#743] Lorean Hegemony: a part of the Julian Protectorate?
Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
Re: Technical Question - Help!
Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote 
[none]
My freight & passenger tables
Apology for Quote Not Needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:30:07 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

Thank's to the list for your help in stellar geography!

I apologize for the posting of Col. Jessup's quote: it may
sound cool, but the man himself is trash, is my understand-
ing.  As far removed from military culture as I am, I thought
that military folk would have approved (!), as I found the quote
at a unoffical Marine site (The Gitmo Guide, 
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6625/index2.html for Marines
involved with Guantanamo Bay). That just shows just how
far off base I was...

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:40:08 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Supernova (Re: Question: EQ worlds)

>Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:49:32 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds
>In mail you write:
>> Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"
>>
>> System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
>> Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...
>>
>> Also, that supernova at Beta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
>> be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova 
>> was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...
>They aren't that rare. There's about one supernova VISIBLE TO THE NAKED
>EYE every 500-1000 years in the galaxy. Telescopicly we observe several
>a *year*. 
>A galaxy has a *lot* of stars.

Hmmm.  What would you estimate is the probability of a supernova
in Imperial Space over it's thousand-year history?  Over Vilani Space
since the First Imperium?  If there have been supernova/nova's
showing up, where would you stick it in time and location?  And what would
be the effects on the Imperium?

Asking annoying questions,
  Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:50:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill (OT)

In mail you write:

> Bean counting idiots.
>
> I was reading about the takeover of Avalon Hill by Hasbro on
> Gamespot.com.  They cancelled all agreements with developers
> for their wargames - a Hasbro manager was reported to have said
> that "Anything that takes more than an hour to play can't be
> called a game."
>
> Not a clue about what makes a game. They probably think
> checkers is too complicated. Sheesh!!!

Well, hopefully that same manager will be willing to let the rights to
these "non-games" go cheaply.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:52:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: EQ:Supernovas (and a bit of the Beyond):  EQ question

In mail you write:

> Also, Jeff V., the star's in the Beyond sector: some of them form an
> obviously artifical hexagonal pattern.  If this is for real, then the
> ancients somehow got the power to move *Star Systems* around.  I hope
> this isn't canonical, as this means that the Final War would have
> left more than mere asteroid belts as debris!

It's only "obviously artifical" because of the way the maps are
printed. Those stars could be almost half a parsec from the center of
the map hex in various directions. That'd spoil the hexagon. But the
*map* would look the same. 

And it's perfectly possible for such an arrangement to happen
naturally, too.

> Does anyone here know what to expect, at so-and-so
> lightyears from the supernova? Ie, my guesstimate...
>     50-light years - kill's everything
>     100-light years - kill's all higher lifeforms
>     150-light years - causes extensive damage to the biosphere:
>         if human setteld, 1/2 of population dies
>     200-light years - causes sigificant damage to the biosphere:
>         if human-settled, 1/20th of population dies
>     250-light years - marginal effect's of the supernova.  Slight radiation
>         increase.

You are forgetting that the effects are subject to the inverse-square
law. So at 100 light years, the effects are 1/4 as strong as at 50. 

> Actually, it doesn't affect my development of the Empty Quarter
> too much, as it is thinly settled anyways.

Also, don't forget that while the *light* spreads at c, the effects
that are really dangerous beyond a few parsecs travel *below* the speed
of light. That's because they are caused by the expanding shell of gases
from the supernova. 

So here's your timetable. The first column is the ditsance from the
supernova in hexes(parsecs). The others are the time it'll take for
effects travelling at various speeds to get there. Format of the time
is year:weeks, so 3:14 means three years, 14 weeks. The weeks are round
up to the nearest week. (I've included the BASIC program that generated
this so anyone who want s to can generate tables for whatever range
they like. 

hex  c       90% c   80% c   70% c   60% c   50% c   40% c    30% c    20% c
- ---  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  -------  -------
  1    3:14    3:32    4:04    4:34    5:23    6:27    8:08    10:45    16:16
  2    6:27    7:13    8:08    9:17   10:45   13:02   16:16    21:39    32:32
  3    9:41   10:45   12:12   13:51   16:16   19:30   24:24    32:32    48:48
  4   13:02   14:26   16:16   18:33   21:39   26:05   32:32    43:26    65:12
  5   16:16   18:06   20:20   23:16   27:10   32:32   40:40    54:19    81:29
  6   19:30   21:39   24:24   27:50   32:32   39:07   48:48    65:12    97:45
  7   22:43   25:19   28:28   32:32   38:03   45:35   57:04    76:06   114:09
  8   26:05   28:52   32:32   37:15   43:26   52:10   65:12    86:51   130:25
  9   29:19   32:32   36:36   41:49   48:48   58:37   73:21    97:45   146:41
 10   32:32   36:13   40:40   46:31   54:19   65:12   81:29   108:38   163:05
 11   35:46   39:45   44:44   51:14   59:42   71:40   89:37   119:32   179:21
 12   39:07   43:26   48:48   55:48   65:12   78:15   97:45   130:25   195:37
 13   42:21   47:06   53:00   60:30   70:35   84:42  106:01   141:18   212:02
 14   45:35   50:39   57:04   65:12   76:06   91:17  114:09   152:12   228:18
 15   48:48   54:19   61:08   69:47   81:29   97:45  122:17   163:05   244:34
 16   52:10   57:52   65:12   74:29   86:51  104:20  130:25   173:51   260:50
 17   55:24   61:32   69:17   79:11   92:22  110:47  138:33   184:44   277:14
 18   58:37   65:12   73:21   83:46   97:45  117:22  146:41   195:37   293:30
 19   61:51   68:45   77:25   88:28  103:15  123:50  154:49   206:31   309:46
 20   65:12   72:25   81:29   93:10  108:38  130:25  163:05   217:24   326:10
 21   68:26   76:06   85:33   97:45  114:09  137:00  171:13   228:18   342:27
 22   71:40   79:38   89:37  102:27  119:32  143:27  179:21   239:11   358:43
 23   75:01   83:19   93:41  107:09  125:02  150:03  187:29   250:05   375:07
 24   78:15   86:51   97:45  111:44  130:25  156:30  195:37   260:50   391:23
 25   81:29   90:32  101:49  116:26  135:48  163:05  203:46   271:43   407:39
 26   84:42   94:12  106:01  121:08  141:18  169:32  212:02   282:37   424:03
 27   88:04   97:45  110:05  125:43  146:41  176:08  220:10   293:30   440:19
 28   91:17  101:25  114:09  130:25  152:12  182:35  228:18   304:24   456:35
 29   94:31  105:06  118:13  135:07  157:34  189:10  236:26   315:17   472:51
 30   97:45  108:38  122:17  139:42  163:05  195:37  244:34   326:10   489:16
 31  101:06  112:19  126:21  144:24  168:28  202:13  252:42   337:04   505:32
 32  104:20  115:51  130:25  149:06  173:51  208:40  260:50   347:49   521:48
 33  107:34  119:32  134:29  153:41  179:21  215:15  269:06   358:43   538:12
 34  110:47  123:12  138:33  158:23  184:44  221:42  277:14   369:36   554:28
 35  114:09  126:44  142:37  163:05  190:15  228:18  285:22   380:29   570:44
 36  117:22  130:25  146:41  167:40  195:37  234:45  293:30   391:23   587:08
 37  120:36  134:05  150:45  172:22  201:08  241:20  301:38   402:16   603:24
 38  123:50  137:38  154:49  177:04  206:31  247:47  309:46   413:10   619:41
 39  127:11  141:18  159:01  181:38  212:02  254:23  318:02   424:03   636:05
 40  130:25  144:51  163:05  186:21  217:24  260:50  326:10   434:49   652:21
 41  133:39  148:31  167:09  191:03  222:47  267:25  334:18   445:42   668:37
 42  137:00  152:12  171:13  195:37  228:18  274:00  342:27   456:35   685:01
 43  140:14  155:44  175:17  200:20  233:40  280:28  350:35   467:29   701:17
 44  143:27  159:25  179:21  205:02  239:11  287:03  358:43   478:22   717:33
 45  146:41  163:05  183:25  209:36  244:34  293:30  366:51   489:16   733:49
 46  150:03  166:38  187:29  214:19  250:05  300:05  375:07   500:09   750:14
 47  153:16  170:18  191:33  219:01  255:27  306:33  383:15   511:02   766:30
 48  156:30  173:51  195:37  223:35  260:50  313:08  391:23   521:48   782:46
 49  159:44  177:31  199:41  228:18  266:21  319:35  399:31   532:41   799:10
 50  163:05  181:12  203:46  233:00  271:43  326:10  407:39   543:35   815:26
 51  166:19  184:44  207:50  237:34  277:14  332:38  415:47   554:28   831:42
 52  169:32  188:24  212:02  242:17  282:37  339:13  424:03   565:21   848:06
 53  172:46  192:05  216:06  246:51  288:07  345:40  432:11   576:15   864:22
 54  176:08  195:37  220:10  251:33  293:30  352:15  440:19   587:08   880:38
 55  179:21  199:18  224:14  256:16  299:01  358:43  448:27   598:02   897:03
 56  182:35  202:50  228:18  260:50  304:24  365:18  456:35   608:47   913:19
 57  185:49  206:31  232:22  265:32  309:46  371:45  464:43   619:41   929:35
 58  189:10  210:11  236:26  270:15  315:17  378:20  472:51   630:34   945:51
 59  192:24  213:44  240:30  274:49  320:40  384:48  481:08   641:27   962:15
 60  195:37  217:24  244:34  279:31  326:10  391:23  489:16   652:21   978:31
 61  198:51  221:05  248:38  284:14  331:33  397:50  497:24   663:14   994:47
 62  202:13  224:37  252:42  288:48  337:04  404:25  505:32   674:08  1011:11
 63  205:26  228:18  256:46  293:30  342:27  411:01  513:40   685:01  1027:28
 64  208:40  231:50  260:50  298:12  347:49  417:28  521:48   695:46  1043:44
 65  212:02  235:31  265:02  302:47  353:20  424:03  530:04   706:40  1060:08
 66  215:15  239:11  269:06  307:29  358:43  430:30  538:12   717:33  1076:24
 67  218:29  242:44  273:10  312:11  364:13  437:06  546:20   728:27  1092:40
 68  221:42  246:24  277:14  316:46  369:36  443:33  554:28   739:20  1109:04
 69  225:04  250:05  281:18  321:28  375:07  450:08  562:36   750:14  1125:20
 70  228:18  253:37  285:22  326:10  380:29  456:35  570:44   761:07  1141:36
 71  231:31  257:17  289:26  330:45  386:00  463:11  579:00   772:00  1158:01
 72  234:45  260:50  293:30  335:27  391:23  469:38  587:08   782:46  1174:17
 73  238:07  264:30  297:34  340:09  396:46  476:13  595:16   793:39  1190:33
 74  241:20  268:11  301:38  344:44  402:16  482:40  603:24   804:33  1206:49
 75  244:34  271:43  305:42  349:26  407:39  489:16  611:33   815:26  1223:13
 76  247:47  275:24  309:46  354:08  413:10  495:43  619:41   826:19  1239:29
 77  251:09  279:04  313:50  358:43  418:32  502:18  627:49   837:13  1255:45
 78  254:23  282:37  318:02  363:25  424:03  508:45  636:05   848:06  1272:09
 79  257:36  286:17  322:06  368:07  429:26  515:21  644:13   858:52  1288:25
 80  260:50  289:50  326:10  372:42  434:49  521:48  652:21   869:45  1304:42
 81  264:12  293:30  330:14  377:24  440:19  528:23  660:29   880:38  1321:06
 82  267:25  297:11  334:18  382:06  445:42  534:50  668:37   891:32  1337:22
 83  270:39  300:43  338:22  386:41  451:13  541:26  676:45   902:25  1353:38
 84  274:00  304:24  342:27  391:23  456:35  548:01  685:01   913:19  1370:02
 85  277:14  308:04  346:31  396:05  462:06  554:28  693:09   924:12  1386:18
 86  280:28  311:37  350:35  400:40  467:29  561:03  701:17   935:06  1402:34
 87  283:41  315:17  354:39  405:22  472:51  567:31  709:25   945:51  1418:50
 88  287:03  318:49  358:43  410:04  478:22  574:06  717:33   956:44  1435:15
 89  290:17  322:30  362:47  414:38  483:45  580:33  725:41   967:38  1451:31
 90  293:30  326:10  366:51  419:21  489:16  587:08  733:49   978:31  1467:47
 91  296:44  329:43  371:03  424:03  494:38  593:36  742:05   989:25  1484:11
 92  300:05  333:23  375:07  428:37  500:09  600:11  750:14  1000:18  1500:27
 93  303:19  337:04  379:11  433:20  505:32  606:38  758:22  1011:11  1516:43
 94  306:33  340:36  383:15  438:02  511:02  613:13  766:30  1022:05  1533:07
 95  309:46  344:17  387:19  442:36  516:25  619:41  774:38  1032:50  1549:23
 96  313:08  347:49  391:23  447:19  521:48  626:16  782:46  1043:44  1565:40
 97  316:22  351:30  395:27  452:01  527:19  632:43  791:02  1054:37  1582:04
 98  319:35  355:10  399:31  456:35  532:41  639:18  799:10  1065:31  1598:20
 99  322:49  358:43  403:35  461:18  538:12  645:46  807:18  1076:24  1614:36
100  326:10  362:23  407:39  466:00  543:35  652:21  815:26  1087:17  1631:00

10 H1$= "hex  c        90% c    80% c    70% c    60% c    50% c    40% c    30% c    20% c    10% c"
20 H2$= "---  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------"
30 F1$= "###"
40 F2$= "  \     \"
50 DEF FNA$(A)=RIGHT$("     "+STR$(FIX(A)),4)+":"+RIGHT$(STR$(100+CINT((A-FIX(A))*52)),2)
60 PARSEC=3.262
70 OPEN "xx" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
80 PRINT #1,H1$
90 PRINT #1,H2$
100 FOR A=1 TO 100
110   B=A*PARSEC
120   PRINT #1, USING F1$;A;
130   PRINT #1, USING F2$;FNA$(B),FNA$(B/.9),FNA$(B/.8),FNA$(B/.7),FNA$(B/.6),FNA$(B/.5),FNA$(B/.4),FNA$(B/.3),FNA$(B/.2),FNA$(B/.1)
140 NEXT
150 CLOSE

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 98 01:50:06 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill (OT)

On 08/15/98 at 08:50 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> Not a clue about what makes a game. They probably think
>> checkers is too complicated. Sheesh!!!

>Well, hopefully that same manager will be willing to let the rights
>to these "non-games" go cheaply.

Don't count on it.  <sigh> They'll file everything away and sit on
it all. 

Hasbro, supposedly, wanted AH just for the computer titles it
*might* be able to get out of their games.  You'll notice they
followed up by buying MicroProse last week.

I'm really bummed about this!  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:15:46 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Summer's over...

... and I am back online.

"OK. You may proceed to hit me with about a hundred mails a week now. I am
ready, worked up and... THUD"

<silence>

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:01:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Supernova (Re: Question: EQ worlds)

In mail you write:

>>Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:49:32 PST
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Question: EQ worlds
>>In mail you write:
>>> Addressed to someone with a copy of "The Atlas of the Imperium"
>>>
>>> System 2423 of the Empty Quarter: does it belong to the Julian
>>> Protectorate, or is it non-aligned?    I need to know...
>>>
>>> Also, that supernova at Beta Niobe: should it exist?  Should there
>>> be a supernova at about -850 Imperial?  I thought that supernova 
>>> was a very rare thing, like two seen on earth every 10,000 years...
>>They aren't that rare. There's about one supernova VISIBLE TO THE NAKED
>>EYE every 500-1000 years in the galaxy. Telescopicly we observe several
>>a *year*. 
>>A galaxy has a *lot* of stars.
>
> Hmmm.  What would you estimate is the probability of a supernova
> in Imperial Space over it's thousand-year history?  Over Vilani Space
> since the First Imperium?  If there have been supernova/nova's
> showing up, where would you stick it in time and location?  And what would
> be the effects on the Imperium?

Let me put it this way. Those "visible" supernovas are thousands of
parsecs away. 

Another datapoint. I have the old SPI game OUTREACH, which has to hold
the record for the largest *scale* of any wargame ever published. On
the tyical *huge* SI map, it manages to get about 2/3rds of the galaxy.
Each hex is 1200 lightyears (call it 400 parsecs) across. That means
that the entire Imperium, plus all the surrounding areas that we have
mapped don't even fill *one* hex. 

So there's a *lot* of room out there, and the odds of one happening in
or near the Imperium are slim. For one thing, supernovas tend to
involve stars of types that very rare in the Imperium (and everywhere
for that matter). The only main sequence stars that are massive enough
to eventually become supernovas are the O, B and A stars. And O, B and
A stars that have left the main sequence are type M *giants*, which we
also don't see in the Imperium to any great extent. 

The other type of supernova requires a close binary where one star is a
white dwarf. And I mean *close*. Again, these are and most such stars
are only recurrent novas. Which just make for interesting viewing from
the next hex over.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:53:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Summer's over... 

> ... and I am back online.

Welcome back.

> "OK. You may proceed to hit me with about a hundred mails a week now. I am
> ready, worked up and... THUD"

A hundred a *WEEK*????????????????

I'm reading here, TNE-RCES, wearable computers, FVWM, QVWM, & *%* PBEM's.  I'm 
getting 150-200 msgs a DAY, and that's *NOT* including the spam my sister 
sends me from AOHell: mostlyweird chain letters, pyramid scam stuff, and 
bornagain propaganda.  *grin*

> <silence>

Welcome back to the grinder, BTW.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:30:19 -0400
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Dean Files Grav Bikes

Rob Dean writes:
>I know that I did grav bikes at several tech levels,
>but don't recall if any of them had specialized recon sensor
>arrays...
There are two in my webified Dean Files, one at TL11 and the other being
the memorable Ultima Grav Racing Bike. I've had _man_ PC's drool over that
one. It's fast, it's fabulous, it goes 4200kph. Sensor arrays? Well that's
the problem. You can cross your sensor window in 1.6 seconds at top speed.
That's just enough time to say "Is that a mount...".
I think someone has already offered to post them. The Dean Files will be up
on the Core website sooner rather than later. I have a phobic reaction to
"Under Construction" signs and I'm not keen on posting the stite until it
is _all_ ready.
Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:01:20 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

Thank's to the list for your help in stellar geography!

I apologize for the posting of Col. Jessup's quote: it may
sound cool, but the man himself is trash, is my understand-
ing.  As far removed from military culture as I am, I thought
that military folk would have approved (!), as I found the quote
at a unoffical Marine site (The Gitmo Guide,
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6625/index2.html for Marines
involved with Guantanamo Bay).

Again, my sincere apologies to those who serve, or have served
their nation!


Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:27:42 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#743] Lorean Hegemony: a part of the Julian Protectorate?

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:02:25 -0400, "alvin plummer"
<aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

>I was hoping to use the Lorean Heg. as a foil against the
>Julian Protectorate in the Empty Quarter. The alligence
>codes (Hl = Lorean Hegemony) suggest that the hegemony is
>indeed an independent nation, seperate from the Julian
>Protectorate (a federation of nations, their alligence codes
>always begin with "J", as in Jr, JP, etc).

>Of course, the Hegemony is heavily settled by Vargr in
>the Offical Universe, so perhaps their relationship 
>with the Protectorate is the usual chaotic mess?

According to the dot maps in the Vargr section of
_Cogs_and_Dogs_, the Lorean Hegemony is part of the Julian
Protectorate, and when I did up those six sectors for Galactic, I
colored them accordingly.

There wasn't really a way to create a "J" code for them; as I
recall, there already was a Jh (Hhkar Sphere, IIRC) and a Jl
(Lumda Dower, IIRC).  I really object on general principles to
case distinctions in something like this.

Remember also that the Protectorate is a much looser federated
state than the Imperium, or indeed most of the major polities in
Charted Space.  There's no reason that you can't have internal
Julian politics with the Loreans acting as a bloc that attempts
to oppose some of the important policies of the Protectorate, and
there's no reason that the Loreans can't go their own way on
"foreign affairs".  Check out the sector notes from Amdukan
Sector in the current version of Galactic; there is _extensive_
information on the Protectorate there, all of it either take from
or consistent with canon.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:53:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

alvin plummer wrote:
> 
> Thank's to the list for your help in stellar geography!
> 
> I apologize for the posting of Col. Jessup's quote: it may
> sound cool, but the man himself is trash, is my understand-
> ing.  

Watch 'A Few Good Men' and see for yourself...

>As far removed from military culture as I am, I thought
> that military folk would have approved (!), as I found the quote
> at a unoffical Marine site (The Gitmo Guide,
> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6625/index2.html for Marines
> involved with Guantanamo Bay).
>

That may be far scarier than the quote...that they are taking him seriously.

But, he is a classic example of siege mentality...after all, Gitmo has _got_
to be one of the flat-out no sh*t _weirdest_ places on the planet to be
stationed. A naval base in an actively _hostile_ country with which the bases
owner has no formal diplomatic relations. 

Seen from the Cuban perspective it's as if the Soviets maintained a naval base
in South Carolina throughout the cold war to the present day, and there was
nothing we could do about it short of war to kick them out.

Many years of that's gonna warp anyone's perspective of what duty and honor is.

ObTrav...You have to wonder how many Imperial enclaves have been like Gitmo
over the centuries, particularly during the rebellion...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:07:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Technical Question - Help!

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>If you have the superior taste to own a macintosh ;-), there's also a
>>link to Rob Prior's Infini-V program, whihc is a construction set for
>>Traveller vehicles, using the CSC vehicle design rules. a Windows
>>version is in the works but on an unknown timetable right now, as Rob
>>is, I hope, feverishly coding away on his FFS2 program...;->
>
>  You wish! While I'm willing to concede that he's almost certainly not
>a hoax carried out by gifted Ontario high-schoolers (if he is, they've
>got a career in FX), I distinctly understood the communication of the
>concepts "beach", "sunshine", etc.
>
>  I suspect serious dereliction of duty here, comrades.

It gets worse when he sends you a postcard of said beach and says how much
fun it is to relax and let life go past, with a PowerBook and a cold drink.
Especially when you look outside, it's a rainy English day and you know
you're in work tomorrow.

>        (I also begin to want a Mac, too)

I have two. Unfortunately the beach appears to be a high spec option...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:42:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote 

> ObTrav...You have to wonder how many Imperial enclaves have been like Gitmo
> over the centuries, particularly during the rebellion...

Funny you should say that...  <grin>

IMPBEMTU, the party is in Reavers' Deep, outside of Imperial space.  They're 
not too fond of Dulinor there, but they're even *LESS* fond of the Solomanis 
coming up from Dark Nebula to stab at Dalbei through the 'back door'.  Some 
heavy naval actions have already gone down concerning the Impies, and of 
course, more 'stuff' is gonna happen...

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:25:31 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [none]

>Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>I've seen _Warrant of Restoration_ floating about recently regarding
>>Slavery.  Where exactly is this Warrant?  I haven't seen any reference
>>to it until it showed up here.
Dom Mooney Replied:
>It's in M0 and is the charter for the third Imperium. I believe that Jeff
>Zeitlin may be the guilty party - but that's a faded memory.

It also is discussed in GURPS Traveller, altho I know not if the full text
is included.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:21:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: My freight & passenger tables

I've been working on refining my freight and passenger tables. I'm still not
quite finished, but since they've come up I thought I'd better post them:


Here is a brand new set of calculations based on a series of 6,000 T ship
designs done with QSDS1.5 (plus a few extrapolations of my own). The reason
why I'm using such a big ship is to avoid considerations of the minimum size
of a power plant at TL 9 (100 T). Since there is no 6,000 T hull in the hull
list, I'm using the 800 T disk and multiplying all figures by 7.5.

The main difference from the earlier calculations (apart from the larger
ships) is that I've adjusted the cost of the ships for TL and chosen the
cheapest one for each kind of jump. This is not quite as straightforward a
question as one might suppose, because the increased efficiency of power
plants at TL 13 and again at TL 15 makes higher-tech power plants
effectively smaller and cheaper. However, as it turns out this effect can't
quite compensate for the higher value of the higher-tech credits. For ships
of this size and above TL 9 ships are the cheapest jump-1 ships, but be aware
that this is not the case for smaller ships, due to the minimum size of power
plants which makes smaller TL 9 ships grossly owerpowered.

THere were some errors in my eralier figures. I hope I've eliminated most of
them (without introducing new ones ;-). It seems that jump-2 is slightly
cheaper than jump-3 for jong distance freight traffic. Another interesting
point to note is that due to the high life support costs, jump-6 turns out
to be the cheapest way to for passengers to travel long distances.

I've worked out two sets of ticket and freight costs. One is pretty much based
on straight Traveller rules with a few insignificant exceptions (slightly
different crew salaries, Cr300/T for refined fuel). The most significant
departure is that I've allowed regular ships to jump every 10 days on the
average instead of the canonical 14. I've still charged the full Cr2000/jump
life support costs.

In both sets of calculations I've assumed that the ships on the average are
90% full each trip.

Note: MT and T4 to the contrary notwithstanding, I do not think that it makes
no difference to the cost of a ticket whether a passenger sleeps in a full or
a half sized stateroom. IMO a Middle passenger occupies a 4T stateroom alone.
OTOH I do think that people will be willing to put up with a little inconve-
nience to save several thousand credits, so travelling two to a stateroom or
in half-sized single staterooms do make sense. So I've introduced 'Economy'
passages for that sort of Middle passage (Actually, I've only done 'two to a
stateroom' designs, but 'half-sized staterooms' designs will be very close in
costs). I've also introduced 'Steerage' passage which is even worse
conditions: bunks and no steward service whatsoever.


REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35 
jumps per year):
             
           Steerage    Low      Economy     Mid      High     1 dT of   1 dT/
           Passage   Passage    Passage   Passage   Passage   freight  parsec
Jump-1:     2,426       799      2,935     3,769     4,535      386      386
Jump-2:     2,675     1,080      3,446     4,774     5,850      629      315
Jump-3:     3,076     1,524      4,410     6,641     7,922    1,017      339
Jump-4:     3,565     2,068      5,261     8,338    10,496    1,495      374
Jump-5:     4,594     3,119      7,321    12,409    15,913    2,481      497
Jump-6:     5,955     4,677     10,132    17,833    23,000    3,814      636


The second set of costs are based on my revised life support rules based on
the assumption that the canonical figure includes an Imperial tax of Cr1000
per jump (obviously Low passage is not so taxed, but I've assumed that the
canonical cost of Cr100 per occupied low berth is a tax too) and that plain
life support comes to Cr2000/month. Furthermore that life support for
passengers (who spend only 8 days aboard on the average jump) cost a bit less
than the full Cr1000/jump. The figures I've used are: Steerage passengers:
Cr500 (they have to supply their own food); Economy passengers: Cr600; Middle
passengers Cr700; High passengers: Cr800; Low passengers: Cr0.


REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35 
jumps per year):
             
           Steerage    Low      Economy     Mid      High     1 dT of   1 dT/
           Passage   Passage    Passage   Passage   Passage   freight  parsec
Jump-1:       910       609      1,481     2,406     3,118       382     382
Jump-2:     1,158       901      1,994     3,411     4,424       624     312
Jump-3:     1,556     1,342      2,942     5,266     6,487     1,010     337
Jump-4:     2,044     1,885      3,800     6,946     9,051     1,487     372
Jump-5:                          5,852    11,011    14,738
Jump-6:

Unfortunately it isn't enough just to add Cr1000 to the price to get the cost
of a ticket in Imperial space, because this supposed tax is applied to the
crew as well, so the tax on the crew spots has to be added to the cost of the
passenger tickets. A jump-1 High Passage, for instance, would cost
Cr3,118+1000+168=4,286.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:22:53 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Apology for Quote Not Needed

Hi-
  I think your need to apologize is nil. The quote itself is the gruff
sentiment of many military that have experienced combat and/or seen how their
dedication to duty was ridiculed during the Vietnam period. The context from
which it came; the Col. in the movie and his actions; is what should be
vilified. Yes, he attempted to hide his misconduct behind the sanctity of the
flag and rightly should be condemned. But, if the quote is separated from the
man, there is some nobility of spirit to be discovered in the sentiment.
   
   Before I get flamed on this, I am a military brat (my Dad retired from the
military), I grew up to serve in the military myself, I married my wife who
was in the military, with both of us retiring just a few years ago. I have a
son-in-law just back from duty in Korea. I served proudly even when we were
held in low esteem and a future president  wrote letters about how he despised
and loathed us (and who, like the Col, now wants his actions overlooked so he
"can get back to the peoples work"). I think I have some small measure of
knowledge into the military environment. So, if some on the TML wish to
disagree with the quote, please specify whether it's the words themselves you
wish to disavow or their use in the context of the movie.
   
   Dave (who I understand is currently in the Air Force) posted a great quote
from Thomas Paine. 
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will
reach to himself" 
   
   Protecting everyone's liberty IS necessary if you are to keep your own.
But, while not required, it would be nice if those that do the protecting
occasionally heard a "Thank You." Either way, they'll still understand and
follow their duty to "stand the wall."   
     J. LaRosee, USAF, Capt., Ret.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #745
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 746



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Repost of Hans' freight and passenger tables
Human Instict
Heros of Lit (was Re: Honor Harrington)
Copyright and the US
Finding Things
Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe
Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe 
[none]
Important Copyright Corrections (was - Re: Copyright and the US)
Chattel Slavery and JZ's explanation (Was - Warrant Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #728)
Re: Copyright and the US
Esquire and other titles
Re: Avalon Hill (OT)
FIASCO
Copyrights and OOP
Reavers' Deep
Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases
Imperial Economics II: Long-Haul Trade 1.0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:40:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: re: Repost of Hans' freight and passenger tables

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
>Subject: re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table
> 
>>           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
>>           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
>>Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
> 
>Marketing effects would drive the Economy/Middle/High passage distinction
>higher, I suspect, in the same fashion that business and first class 
>airfare is *much* higher than economy; first class gets perhaps one more
>attnedent of dedicated service (negligible cost) and occupies seats that
>take ~2 seats room but cost much more than twice what economy does.

The difference between economy passage and middle passage is equivalent to
20% of an average yearly income (after taxes and dependents are accounted
for), the difference between middle and high 14%. You may be right, but I
doubt it.

> The price delta isn't set by the cost delta but by the value delta, as it 
> were. (And by the fact that most people aren't paying their own money to
> fly business class, of course.)

The tables show the cheapest cost the service in question can be provided
>while still allowing the provider a reasonable profit. If someone is 
selling them at higher prices he is making money hand over fist.

Brannon Boren writes:

>>>           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
>>>           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
>>>Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
> 
>Could someone offer an explanation of exactly what each of these passage
>types means in terms of actual accomodations?

Steerage: Bunks, no steward service at all (Non-canonical).
Low: As per rules.
Economy: Two to a stateroom, 1 steward/50 passengers. (Sort of canonical)
Midddle: As per rules.
High: As per rules.

>I mean, Low Passage offers a chance of death in cryo -

Canonically they do, but they don't IMTU, since there is an alternative
that costs almost as little and is completely safe (Fast berth - you get
a dose of Fast drug (Cr200) and is stuffed into a bunk; at destination
you get a shot of Fast antidote (Cr900). If properly organized (Bunk
facilities at the destination starport) a passenger may even sleep off
the drug without the antidote in which case Fast Berth is actually quite
a lot cheaper than Low Berth (A lot cheaper if you allow the ship to
stack the passengers closer than 1 to a dTon)). So IMTU Low Berth is not
dangerous (given a competent supervising medic, that is).

>...do steerage passengers (presumably awake, though cramped), have a
>casualty rate as well?

No. No one dies from living in a bunk for 8 days. Though they may smell
like it...

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:37:02 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Human Instict

Leonard Writes
>I suspect that much of the K'kree social structure
>is based on "instinct" far more than with humans (though our societies
>are more instinct based than many want to admit)
>
There was a good scientific article (Either SciAm or APA Monitor... don't
recall which) on Infantile Facial Expression a few years back... it seems
that human (and other apes) have instinctual facial expressions, which are
then culturally overridden. I got in trouble in a sociology class for
citing said article, when the instructor asserted that "Humans have no
insticts".

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:50:29 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Heros of Lit (was Re: Honor Harrington)

Bruce posted thusly
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> And for the *personal* touch, we've got folks like Jason dinAlt, or
>> Slippery Jim diGriz (and family).
>>
>
>Oh lordy...I'd forgotten _all_ about Slippery Jim...
>
[snip]

And let us not forget Capt. Phule and his company...

nor Bill the Galactic Hero.

Or Col Sten (of the Sten Adventures Series...) and the military forces of
the Eternal Emperor

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:01:44 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Copyright and the US

US Copyright laws also differ in requirements by subject material. For
Example, graphic arts require a "10% difference in substance" to be a
separate copyright, with a huge bit on figuring % of difference. Music,
however, requires a "Substantial Difference in structure" as well as
"Difference in melodic line". US Copyright in music was covered in Mus
Theory IV (2nd half sophomore music writing) at UAA... and it is so
technical that it can be totally unintelligible.

Also, the US recognizes both hand copyright and registered copyright, with
different limitations and benefits. For music, a hand copyright is only
good for unpublished works, and only for 2 years, and merely requires the
notation of the circle-c, the date, the author's name, and the notation
"Unpublished work".

Another key issue in US Copyright is that they DO expire... not much help
in the US for another 30 years or so... registered copyrights in the us
have a MINIMUM life of 50 years, at least for published music and graphic
arts.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:43:17 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Finding Things

>>Remember, we are talking about *millions* of these scopes. Therefore
>>comparing the snapshots from several scopes gves you an *instant*
>>position fix.
>
>	Position fixes are fine ... once you know something is there and
>approximately where it is, so you can correlate *this* anomalous
>speck of light from this telescope with *that* anomalous speck of
>light from that telescope. And the original detection, from my
>understanding, takes a while. You take a photo tonight. Tomorrow
>night you take another photo, and again, and again. Then you look for
>specks of light which seem to move from night to night.
>
Assuming you have a multi-processor 1GHz system (probably not too far out
there right now, for top of the line tech with liquid cooling) per
telescope, detection could be fairly easily accomplished... but current
astronomy sites seem lucky to have a few x586 class boxes available.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:34:10 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe

> From:          jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> 
> By "blocking" the jump route I mean, in this case, that the
> planet/system that would have enabled a nice route across that
> arm of the lesser rift is simply no longer there, having been
> converted into part of the shell of gasses that presents the
> appearance of a colorful ring.

A thought:

What if the supernova's effects extend into jump space, and no ship can cross 
the supernova's 'wavefront' without being precipitated out of jump (as if it 
were a 100-diam limit).  This would last until the wavefront had travelled x 
parsecs from the supernova.  If no jump is possible within the volume of the 
wavefront, or if the effect of the wavefront is wide enough (a significant 
fraction of a parsec or more) but jump is possible within that spehere, a big 
chunk of space could be cut off from the rest of the FTL universe for 
centuries.  


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:31:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#742] Empty Quarter: Beta Niobe 

> A thought:
> 
> What if the supernova's effects extend into jump space, and no ship can cross 
> the supernova's 'wavefront' without being precipitated out of jump (as if it 
> were a 100-diam limit).  This would last until the wavefront had travelled x 
> parsecs from the supernova.  If no jump is possible within the volume of the 
> wavefront, or if the effect of the wavefront is wide enough (a significant 
> fraction of a parsec or more) but jump is possible within that spehere, a big 
> chunk of space could be cut off from the rest of the FTL universe for 
> centuries.  

The waveshell moves at lightspeed.  Every time the distance doubles, the intensity of the bubble is square-rooted.  Ex:  The bubble has a force of 25 at 2 parsecs.  At 4 parsecs, it's down to a force of 5.  At 8 parsecs, it's down to 2.236.  

What would happen is, jumping toward the center of the supernova, you'd run into the surface of the distorting bubble.  You drop out of jump.  The bubble passes you over.  Assuming you didn't burn out your jump drive, you can now jump *inside* the bubble, but can't jump *out*.  It's kinda like walking through a one-way door.

Eventually, the bubble's intensity dies out.  *THEN* you can leave the area of the bubble.

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:41:03 -0700
From: "Joseph Fallon" <jfallon@accces.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:59:46 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Important Copyright Corrections (was - Re: Copyright and the US)

William, there are some important developments in copyright law that
contradict what you have posted here.  The copyright law is not static
and even changed this January in the US.  I'm not sure when you were
this information but some of it is now in error and out of date.


William F. Hostman wrote:

> US Copyright laws also differ in requirements by subject material. For
>
> Example, graphic arts require a "10% difference in substance" to be a
> separate copyright, with a huge bit on figuring % of difference.
> Music,
> however, requires a "Substantial Difference in structure" as well as
> "Difference in melodic line". US Copyright in music was covered in Mus
>
> Theory IV (2nd half sophomore music writing) at UAA... and it is so
> technical that it can be totally unintelligible.

I never came across this language in law school, but thats neither
herenor there.  This sounds very much like case law, and is thus open to

interpretation.  I suspect that the numbers mentioned would rarely,
if ever, be definitive for a subsequent court.  Often such language is
only put into a judicial opinion as superficial support for the
conclusion
the judge makes (as the trier of fact much of the time in copyright
cases)
based on the equities, i.e., fairness, of the situation involved.

> Also, the US recognizes both hand copyright and registered copyright,
> with
> different limitations and benefits. For music, a hand copyright is
> only
> good for unpublished works, and only for 2 years, and merely requires
> the
> notation of the circle-c, the date, the author's name, and the
> notation
> "Unpublished work".

By operation of the Berne treaty, the circle "C" is NOT required at
all.(UNLESS - the work was fixed, i.e., written down, before March 1,
1989 -
so go put the (C) symbol, your name and the year of creation on all
those
old files).
There is no longer any such beast as a "hand copyright."
Registration of copyrights in not required.
Copyright endure for the life of the author (or last living if
co-authored)
+ 75 years (thus a minimum of 75 years) OR 100 years, whichever is
shorter.

However, _if_ you have to sue someone for violating your copyright,
_then_ you must register your copyright with the U.S. government.
Fortunately, you do not have to register it before the alleged
infringement,
but just sometime before the trial starts. So the normal process is,
- - you create something that earns copyright protection,
- - someone infringes that copyright,
- - you decide to sue them and file a charge,
- - you send the paperwork to register your copyright, then
- - the trial commences.

Just a little extra:
to qualify for copyright, essentially you need an original work of
authorship fixed in some tangible medium for a minimal period of time
(writing on a chalkboard that is erased moments later should qualify -
but it will be hard to prove infringement).  Thats it.  Copyright
attaches.  No (C), no registration.  You're done.  Of course, if you
have to go to court, you have to jump through a few more hoops as I
mentioned briefly above.

Having said all that, to make things easy on yourself, and the courts,
when you write something you think is valuable, or don't want anyone to
copy, do 2 things:
1) Date it.  There are so many good reasons to do this, I don't think I
need to explain but it _could_ be the pivotal issue in a case;
2) Go ahead and put the (C) on there.  Its not required, but it alerts
others to your intentions to reserve the copyright for yourself.
(optional: 3) Make a hard copy and file it.


Some sites with good information on US copyright law:
The US government site:
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html

A plain languae site:
http://www.lawgirl.com/
[click on Copyright Basics]

Disclaimer: I'm only discussing US law, but the Bern treaty provisions
will overrule domestic copyright law in all countries which are a party
to the treaty.

Bloo, esquire, and all other titles which are meaningless in the US.*


*The title "Esquire," so often adopted by lawyers in the US for no good
reason that I can see, is meaningless here, although I guess it had or
has some importance in the UK.  The founding fathers of the US, in the
Federalist papers, IIRC, said that such titles are without meaning here
and anyone can claim one, as long as they do not claim the title of
another.  Which makes sense in a trademark sort of way.

Ob. Traveller:  [hey look!  I worked it around to something relevant :-)

What sorts of minor titles with respect to station, achievement, etc.,
would we see in Traveller?
It makes perfect sense for only lawyers/barristers/advocates admitted to
the Imperial Bar to be allowed to use the title "Esquire."  But what Soc
would that parallel to?  Perhaps there might be different social titles
for the rank and honor nobles.  IIRC, MM's T4.1 has such things as
"Lishun" for Medical Doctors, and a couple of others.  For myself, I'd
like a more robust system of titles, if for no other reason than to
convince my players that a role of 12 on Soc doesn't make you the Baron
von Whatever with X amount of lands and wealth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:15:57 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Chattel Slavery and JZ's explanation (Was - Warrant Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #728)

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> Slavery as practiced in the United States prior to the 1860s is
> absolutely verboten - that's inarguably chattel slavery.  But
> slavery on the Roman model (debt enslavement) or medieval model
> (manorial serfdom) isn't chattel slavery, and is arguably
> allowable in the Third Imperium.  It's very definitely a gray
> area, and I intended it so when I wrote that paragraph.

Jeff, thanks for the clarification.  I think your explantion makes one
big tent for most TUs to fit into.
I hadn't considered the Roman model for MTU, but now I will for at least
systems off the Mains.
It certainly opens up the possibility of more complex systems of
indentured servitude, etc.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:17:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright and the US

In mail you write:

> Also, the US recognizes both hand copyright and registered copyright, with
> different limitations and benefits. For music, a hand copyright is only
> good for unpublished works, and only for 2 years, and merely requires the
> notation of the circle-c, the date, the author's name, and the notation
> "Unpublished work".

It's been a while since that ciourse, hasn't it? 

As I understand it, ever since the US became a signatory of the Berne
convention, a copyright is in effect as soon as a work is set down. No
notation of copyright is needed. In fact, unless something is marked as
being in the public domain, you are required to assume that it *is*
copyrighted. 

Registering is required before you can file suit about a violation, and
tyhere are substantial benefits to having registered *before* the
vuiolation occvured (that let's you collect statitory damages rather
than being limited to "actual" damages).

> Another key issue in US Copyright is that they DO expire... not much help
> in the US for another 30 years or so... registered copyrights in the us
> have a MINIMUM life of 50 years, at least for published music and graphic
> arts.

Again, since we adopted the Berne rules, a copyright held by a person
or persons lasts until 50 or 75 years *after* they die. Ones held bey a
corporation last for 75 years.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:53:45 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Esquire and other titles

Date sent:      	Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:59:46 -0500
From:           	steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> Bloo, esquire, and all other titles which are meaningless in the US.*

> *The title "Esquire," so often adopted by lawyers in the US for no good
> reason that I can see, is meaningless here, although I guess it had or
> has some importance in the UK.  The founding fathers of the US, in the
> Federalist papers, IIRC, said that such titles are without meaning here
> and anyone can claim one, as long as they do not claim the title of
> another.  Which makes sense in a trademark sort of way.

In the UK the title Esquire was a courtsey title given to 2nd sons. If you want it 
indicated noble birth without a title. It became applicable when the individual 
fathered his own children (I don't think there was any female equivlant); its 
usage is now quite obsolete.

> Ob. Traveller:  [hey look!  I worked it around to something relevant :-)

> What sorts of minor titles with respect to station, achievement, etc.,
> would we see in Traveller?
> It makes perfect sense for only lawyers/barristers/advocates admitted to
> the Imperial Bar to be allowed to use the title "Esquire."  But what Soc
> would that parallel to?  Perhaps there might be different social titles
> for the rank and honor nobles.  IIRC, MM's T4.1 has such things as
> "Lishun" for Medical Doctors, and a couple of others.  For myself, I'd
> like a more robust system of titles, if for no other reason than to
> convince my players that a role of 12 on Soc doesn't make you the Baron
> von Whatever with X amount of lands and wealth.

I think the use of Esquire for non-inheriting children would be a "nice" addition 
to the background. I believe that in Medieval France lawyers had a specific term 
of address (its been over 15 years since I studied law and my memory is 
getting rusty). Doctors get the title ":Doctor" :*>.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:29:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill (OT)

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote:


>Hasbro, supposedly, wanted AH just for the computer titles it
>*might* be able to get out of their games.  You'll notice they
>followed up by buying MicroProse last week.
>
>I'm really bummed about this!

I'm still wound up about them swallowing Atari and the Jaguar(*) games side
of things.

Dom (Ex-STFM, ex-STe, current Jaguar owner)

(*) at least telegames is releasing a trickle of games for this...

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:01:14 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: FIASCO

FIASCO

MJ Dougherty

My first FIASCO since the PBM side was pushed out - well, thats what it
felt like - was everything I expected it to be. Which is to say, it was a
wargames convention. There just isnt the crossover. With just a few
exceptions, we were ignored by the wargamers, or else theyd trundle up and
ask what sort of miniatures we used, then wander off  disapprovingly upon
learning that there was no official line of figures.
	Funny bunch.
	We were in trouble from the start. Sometime after making a promise to send
us some (unspecified) promotional materials or - better yet - bring them in
person, Andy Lilly fell silent. Ive heard nothing from him since. (You OK,
Andy?). As the day approached we had a scenario and a booked table, but
where was the BITS promotional material? On its way, we hoped. 
	It wasnt.
	We got there OK, if you call OK being trapped in a car with a Transport
Engineer, who insists upon explaining all the road signs, and of course
navigating in that manner that only blokes can manage.... but we got there,
praying to meet Andy with armfuls of posters and flyers..... 
	We exchanged a nervous look and set up the table. Just a bunch of
rulebooks and the scenario. But still folks came past and started making
THE STATEMENT: Traveller? I thought that was out of print years ago....
	Some of them looked the gear over, shrugged, and went off to storm
Stalingrad or Cold Harbor. But a few hung about, talked to us about the
game, and even played the demo scenario.
	I was playing the Cargo-Captain of a Subsidized Merchant, the others were
crew or passengers. We awoke in the crashed wreck of the ships gig, having
been hit in the midst of a passenger transfer. wed seen the ship go down
somewhere to the north, apparently under power. There was a space battle
going on overhead - we didnt know why. She gig was a total loss, and
slowly sinking through the ice - wed crashed on an ice world. The only
option seemed to be to trek overland to the wreck and salvage what we
could.
	Oh, good.
	We grabbed what we could from the sinking wreck (all the salvageables were
listed on cards. Anyone risking a grab for supplies got to stick their hand
in a paper bag and grab a card. I risked my life for.... three personal
medkits and a large spanner. Others were more lucky - we had a survival
shotgun and an SMG, plus some cold-weather kits. 
	Great.	
	The ship sank, we set out walking through the frigid landscape. The food
ran short, tempers frayed. The Captain took charge, which started friction
with a serving Imperial Navy Officer whod been returning from furlough
aboard our ship. One of the crew was attacked by what we dubbed the
Ferocious Dog-Headed Brainsucking Monster (probably an unfair name, but
descriptive). The SMG froze up, so we tried to beat the FDHBM up with a pry
bar and a spanner. The skipper helped out by shooting the ships security
officer by accident with the shotgun. This postponed gun-unfreezing
activities. In the midst of the chaos, the Navy man cracked a cold-light
stick and lobbed it at the monster, which fled in terror.
	Probably just as well.
	We marched on. The food ran out. We sighted some small craft searching the
planets surface, agonized about it (they were Aslan and maybe hostile)
then decided that wed die if we didnt make contact. We tried, but failed
to attract their attention. The security officer and skipper came to blows.
One of the crew got lost in a snow-hurricane. 
	Three avalanches, an unsuccessful attempt to bushwhack a snow-sheep or
similar beast and another internal dispute which led to an attempt to shoot
one another, we reached the wreck. Weak, starving, paranoid and ready to
kill and eat one another, we reached the downed merchant. She looked
flyable.
	And that was where our problems really started.....

	FIASCO was actually quite good fun, despite the rather lukewarm reception
non-wargamers get. It was a shame not to have more role-players present,
but were doing FIASCO II in November. Maybe things will improve....

	MJD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:07:49 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Copyrights and OOP

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andy Akins <igor@ames.net>
To: TravTech <trav-tech@qrc.com>; TML <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 2:43 PM
Subject: Challenge #39


>Does anyone out there have a copy of Challenge #39 they would be willing to
>part with (for a price, of course). I can't seem to find a copy of it on
any
>of the online stores.
>
>Baring that, is there anyone willing to copy (assuming its legal...I think
>it is, since I believe it falls under Marc's out-of-print-hard-to-find
>copying rule) the Hinterworlds supplement out of it...all of the related
>articles for the Hinterworlds stuff....that's all I really want.
>
>Thank you very much..

what is Marc's out of print hard to find coping rule?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:49:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Reavers' Deep

Anybody got any info on the following subsectors in Reavers Deep?

A: Fardrift
B: Riftdeep
C: Riftrim
D: Gulf
H: Nightrim

I need world names, etc for this portion of space.  The old Pocket Empires 
archive had a *LOTTA* good stuff, but concentrated more in the Rimward 
portions of the Deep.

Thanxx in advance.

Keven
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:33:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases

Re: Guantanamo
  BTW, when does the lease run out there? (I imagine that the IN is glad
to rarely [if ever] have to deal with basing rights issues within the 3I)

>But, he is a classic example of siege mentality...after all, Gitmo has _got_
>to be one of the flat-out no sh*t _weirdest_ places on the planet to be
>stationed. A naval base in an actively _hostile_ country with which the bases
>owner has no formal diplomatic relations. 
>
>ObTrav...You have to wonder how many Imperial enclaves have been like Gitmo
>over the centuries, particularly during the rebellion...

  One possibility is that there are likely cases of hostile member worlds
(governments or cultures, with the latter being much nore trouble) where
simply using military forces to enact a quick solution is not desirable. The
thought that particularly amused me was that while different regimes may
decide that paying the Imperial defence bills (~1% of GDP) was a Bad Thing,
there's really only one type of world with any chance of making it stick.

  A high-tech, high-pop world can only do so much, and the major wars of the
background indicate the Imperiums' willingness to force a conclusion against
whole sectors or major empires. However, what short-term course of action
will be effective against a culture (as opposed to a government, popularly
supported or not) that has rejected violence and declines to fund it on that
basis?

  Possible solutions: seize off-world assets to meet current unmet funding
obligations - good as long as they have them. Blockading the world to impose
import/export tariffs to meet the bill might be workable if the vessels used
aren't _needed_ elsewhere (following the model that in peacetime the IN may
have trouble finding places to stack all their spare cruisers :> ), although
offworld merchants and customers will suffer as well; it might also render
the condition effectively permanent once any dislocations have been undergone.

  Landing troops seems a dubious proposition, and would cause problems for
Imperial services using planetary inhabitants elsewhere in the sector. It
might be a boring mission, and wouldn't accomplish much except provide
propaganda for other anti-Imperial movements. I wonder whether an Imperial
sector noble would have the authority (or imagination) to allow their payments
to be designated for non-military purposes? Admittedly, if a major (peak 3I
tech) world tried that then occupation might be the best course in the event.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1998 15:12 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Economics II: Long-Haul Trade 1.0

Hello all,

I just got back from Maui.  It's very nice there.

I've skimmed over thoughts from Ian and others, and I think y'all
are right -- I need to figure out what long-haul trade exists IMTU.


A comment first.  The interstellar traffic rules Jon Buller and I made up 
aren't from the Traveller rules at all... they make use of the UWPs, but 
the method and tables are completely new.  They do work with the Traveller
tramp freighter rules, but they aren't the same beastie.  What we did was 
look at several generic world pairs and think what the likely trade would 
be between them, then from there derive the tables and index caculations.


Alright then, on to Rob's Long-Haul Trade, version 1.0.  If you haven't
already looked at it, please see the article Jon and I wrote on 
Interstellar Trade in Traveller: it has the tables for determining
"local" trade between any two worlds.  It's at

	www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/RobNJonStarport.html

I'm recycling the article's tables to determine long-haul trade also.  
Here's how:

Every sector and subsector has prominent ("Important") worlds which
trade over long distances to rich and/or industrial worlds.  This effect 
is large enough to influence Imperial economics: after all, megacorps
thrive on long-haul service.

The simple sum given below assumes that the average Imperial sector
has some "Important" worlds which drive long-haul trade.  The values
represent the effects of supply and demand of such worlds on a given
world's market.

For any given world, calculate its long-haul trade value thus:

Long-Haul Trade Index =
	+1 if a Rich world
	+1 if an Industrial world
	+1 if a subsector or sector capital
	+2 if its subsector has no non-Imperial borders
	 (+1 if its subsector has only 1 non-Imperial border)
	+1 if its sector has no non-Imperial borders
	+1 if the world is "Important"

The Long-Haul Trade Index is a number from 0 to 7.  Use this index
and the world's regular Trade Index as indices into the trade table
to determine long-haul traffic through this world.  Assume traffic is
between it and Important worlds.

What is Long-Haul transport?

Long-haul transport is the moving of freight between
two distant worlds on a regular route.  Perhaps 5 to 8 parsecs
qualify as the minimum distance to call a route "long-haul", but I
think it is usually thought of as tens of parsecs -- sector-wide
and trans-sector transport.  Perhaps "more than 3 jumps" could also
be considered "long-haul".

Long-haul freight is usually quite valuable, so that the costs due
to distance and time lost in transport are more than compensated
for.  For example, precious stones or electronic equipment might
net a profit of MCr1 per ton, which would justify a 20-parsec run.

Also, long-haul freight is likely to be carried by large freighters,
for economics of scale in production as well as transport.  So,
I would probably assume a long-haul ship displaces at least 10,000 
tons, and carries a nice living area for the crew, a heck of
a lot of cargo space, and little or no passenger space.

Please note that 1000 tons of cargo worth MCr1 per ton is a tasty
treat for pirates.  It also may or may not have an armed escort...
or even fighters.

What's an Important world?

I don't know!  An important world should have a Trade Index of at
least 10, I suppose.  Worlds with a index=10 would look like this:

(Examples)
Starport A, Population 6, TL 15, Naval Base + Xboat + Gas Giant
Starport A, Population A, TL 8,  Naval Base + XBoat + Gas Giant
Starport A, Population 9, TL 13, Gas Giant

Starport B, Population 7, TL 15, Naval Base, XBoat, Gas Giant
Starport B, Population A, TL 15
Starport B, Population 9, TL 14, Xboat + Gas Giant

Starport C, Population A, TL 15, Gas Giant
Starport C, Population A, TL 14, XBoat + Gas Giant

In general cases, important worlds have a high tech level and a
good starport, though there are always exceptions.

A last word: this formula will only determine long-haul trade for
a given world.  It is necessarily general and does not show what
goods are coming from what worlds.  If such detail is needed then
it is better to be determined by the referee... this system is
for guesstimates anyway.

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #746
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 18 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 747



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Query: High pop systems / Important Worlds * Long List *
Re: Repost of Hans' freight and passenger tables
Re: FIASCO
Low Berths (was re: Report of hans...)
Re Passengers
[none]
Re: Decimate et alia
Re: Reavers' Deep
Re: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
New GURPS TNS
Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:40 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Query: High pop systems / Important Worlds * Long List *

Alvin Plummer asked what the typical high-pop worlds
in the Imperium sort of look like.  Using the random world
generation system, I came up with a list of "important"
worlds from a sample size of 10,000.

"Importance" is rated based on population, starport, tech
level, and the presence of a naval base and gas giants, etc, 
and generally range from 0 to 15.  I pulled out all samples
with "Importance" values from 9 up.  The highest score was D
(that is, a 13).  (The values I use to calculate Importance
are the same as the Traffic Index... see Jon and my article
at metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/RobNJonStarport.html).

I went ahead and caulculated a stripped-down Long-Haul trade 
index for each one too, and added it at the end of each world...
the more *'s, the more long-haul trade it does.

I'm starting to get the feeling that this long-haul vs. short-haul
issue may alter our article once again... hmmm.

Here they are.  Looks like 250+ systems per 10,000 are "Important",
25 per 1000, or 1 per 40... roughly 1 per subsector.  And it looks
like even a TL10 world can be "Important".

By the way, it looks like the "Law Level" value isn't working...

D
 A124A57-F  N Hi In              G    **
 A78BAAD-F  S Hi Wa              G    *
 AAC4ABF-F  N Hi Fl              G    *
 A444AAA-F  N Hi In              G    **
 A586ACA-F  N Hi                 G    *
 A9A7A64-F  N Hi Fl              G    *
 A447AFB-F  N Hi In              G    **

C
 A412A99-F    Hi Na In Ic        G    **
 A667A61-F    Hi                 G    *
 A797AA6-F    Hi In              G    **
 A45799B-F  N Hi                 G    *
 A000AAC-F  N Hi Na In As             **
 A57AABD-F    Hi In Wa           G    **
 A451ABB-F    Hi Po              G    *
 A210A66-F    Hi Na In           G    **
 A100A88-F    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A333952-F  N Hi Na Po           G    *
 A225A55-E  N Hi In              G    **
 A110A85-F    Hi Na In           G    **
 A630A77-F    Hi Na Po De        G    *
 A553AAC-F  N Hi Po                   *
 A000AAD-F  N Hi Na In As             **
 A8DCA96-F    Hi Wa Fl           G    *
 A9A9978-F  N Hi Fl              G    *
 A855A56-F  N Hi                      *
 A000ADF-F    Hi Na In As        G    **
 A446A77-E  N Hi In              G    **
 A136953-F  N Hi                 G    *

B
 A689ACE-D  N Hi                      *
 A300ABD-F    Hi Na In Va             **
 A8989CD-E  N Hi In              G    **
 A00099B-F    Hi Na In As        G    **
 A8B9A96-E  N Hi Fl                   *
 A3109A8-E  S Hi Na In           G    **
 A442AA9-E    Hi In Po           G    **
 B8CDA88-F    Hi Wa Fl           G    *
 A3329BD-F    Hi Na Po           G    *
 B78AAAB-F  S Hi Wa                   *
 A687ACC-E    Hi                 G    *
 A8CCA9B-F    Hi Wa Fl                *
 A264994-F  S Hi                      *
 A544A9C-E    Hi In              G    **
 A653ABF-E    Hi Po              G    *
 AAA7956-F    Hi Fl              G    *
 AA64ABD-B  S Hi                 G    *
 C000AAF-F  S Hi Na In As        G    **
 A342ABF-F    Hi In Po                **
 A9B899D-F    Hi Fl              G    *
 C000ACC-F  S Hi Na In As        G    **
 A210A89-D    Hi Na In           G    **
 B532A55-E  N Hi Na Po           G    *
 A9B8AAA-F    Hi Fl                   *
 A7B9ADE-D    Hi Fl              G    *
 A658976-D  S Hi                 G    *
 A478A97-E    Hi In              G    **
 A11089C-F  N Na                 G    *
 A3009BC-F    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A100979-F    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A630AFF-F    Hi Na Po De             *
 A110ACF-F    Hi Na In                **
 A48599B-F    Hi                 G    *
 A653ACB-B  N Hi Po              G    *
 A410ABA-D    Hi Na In           G    **
 A256AEF-D    Hi                 G    *
 A000ABA-E    Hi Na In As        G    **
 B000A98-F    Hi Na In As        G    **
 A664A86-D    Hi                 G    *
 A3239DF-D  N Hi Na In Po        G    **
 A1009BD-D  N Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A9CDA88-C  S Hi Wa Fl           G    *
 A500ACC-F    Hi Na In Va             **
 B000ABD-D  N Hi Na In As        G    **

A
 B400ACB-E  N Hi Na In Va             **
 A7369DF-C  N Hi                 G    *
 A4309CA-E    Hi Na Po De        G    *
 A4589B9-C  S Hi                 G    *
 A1229DF-E  S Hi Na In Po             **
 A945ACF-E    Hi In                   **
 A431875-D  N Na Po              G    *
 A5489CF-E  N Hi In                   **
 B242988-D  N Hi In Po           G    **
 A40099A-E    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A656A6A-C    Hi                 G    *
 A48A98B-D    Hi Wa              G    *
 A45599B-D    Hi                 G    *
 A774996-C  N Hi In              G    **
 A4429A7-B  N Hi In Po           G    **
 A99E97A-C  N Hi In Wa           G    **
 B2309B7-E  N Hi Na Po De        G    *
 A1018CE-F    Na Va Ic           G    *
 B79DABE-D    Hi In Wa           G    **
 A78A988-D    Hi Wa              G    *
 A000964-C  N Hi Na In As        G    **
 B347AAA-C  S Hi In              G    **
 B7B4AAD-D  N Hi Fl                   *
 B79BAEF-D  N Hi In Wa                **
 B759A55-D    Hi                 G    *
 B544A54-E    Hi In              G    **
 A654988-D  N Hi                      *
 A76A9C7-E  N Hi Wa                   *
 B697A9B-E    Hi In              G    **
 B455A8A-C  N Hi                 G    *
 B341AAA-D    Hi In Po           G    **
 B266A58-F    Hi                      *
 A489946-C  N Hi                 G    *
 C310ABB-E  S Hi Na In           G    **
 B896AAA-D  N Hi In                   **
 B440A77-E  S Hi In Po De             **
 A7389A7-E    Hi                 G    *
 A300896-D  N Na Va              G    *
 A2279BF-B  N Hi In              G    **
 A610976-D    Hi Na In           G    **
 B472A86-C  N Hi In              G    **
 B437AAB-B  S Hi                 G    *
 B734ABB-B  N Hi                 G    *
 A7589BC-E    Hi                 G    *
 A332865-D  S Na Po              G    *
 B443A8B-C  N Hi In Po           G    **
 B410ACB-D  N Hi Na In                **
 A525957-F    Hi In                   **
 A5A4ABB-C    Hi Fl              G    *
 B769ABE-B  N Hi                 G    *
 A99A8A6-E  N Wa                 G    *
 A3449BC-D  N Hi In                   **
 B775A64-B  N Hi In              G    **
 B256ABB-C  S Hi                 G    *
 B200958-F  N Hi Na In Va             **
 A244862-D  N                    G    *
 B323ABA-F    Hi Na In Po             **
 B738A98-C  N Hi                 G    *
 A557855-D  N                    G    *
 A100756-F  S Na Va              G    *
 B320940-E  N Hi Na In Po De     G    **
 B332ABC-D  N Hi Na Po                *
 B7AAA79-F    Hi Wa Fl                *
 A555AEE-B    Hi                 G    *
 C387AEC-D  S Hi                 G    *
 C300AA6-D  S Hi Na In Va        G    **
 B541A89-E    Hi In Po           G    **
 B240AB9-D    Hi In Po De        G    **
 B110984-D  S Hi Na In           G    **
 B14599A-E  N Hi In              G    **
 B434AA6-C  N Hi                 G    *
 A2009AD-B  N Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A300977-E  S Hi Na In Va             **

9
 A10088A-F    Na Va                   *
 A23476A-D  N                    G    *
 A5668BA-C  N                    G    *
 A655979-9  N Hi                 G    *
 B201ADF-E    Hi Na In Va Ic          **
 B688A98-C  N Hi                      *
 B787A73-A  S Hi                 G    *
 A111657-F  N Na Ni Ic           G    *
 C233A50-F    Hi Na Po                *
 A77C953-A  N Hi In Wa           G    **
 B5969AF-C  N Hi In              G    **
 A000730-D  S Na As              G    *
 A322765-E  N Na Po              G    *
 B66999B-B  S Hi                 G    *
 BA73ABD-D    Hi In                   **
 A453853-C  S Po                 G    *
 A7C9998-C    Hi Fl              G    *
 C333A65-C  S Hi Na Po           G    *
 A552863-B  N Po                 G    *
 AA679BB-E    Hi                      *
 B210AEB-B  N Hi Na In                **
 A100856-C  N Na Va              G    *
 B633A9D-B  S Hi Na Po                *
 B9C89A5-B  S Hi Fl              G    *
 A662857-D  S Ri                      **
 A5769EF-B    Hi In              G    **
 A4498AD-D                       G    *
 A120772-F  N Na Po De                *
 A73087C-C  N Na Po De           G    *
 A898877-B  N                    G    *
 A410988-C    Hi Na In           G    **
 A58B862-B  N Ri Wa              G    **
 C133A98-D    Hi Na Po           G    *
 BAC89AE-C  N Hi Fl              G    *
 C300AA9-B  S Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A9549AA-B  N Hi                      *
 C245A7C-D    Hi In              G    **
 B99BA83-A  S Hi In Wa           G    **
 B3669DC-B  N Hi                 G    *
 A4658A7-D                       G    *
 A6749DB-B  N Hi In                   **
 B455A9A-A  N Hi                 G    *
 B300958-D    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 B348A7B-C  S Hi In                   **
 B1009AB-E    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 AAA69B8-A  N Hi Fl              G    *
 B521AAB-B    Hi Na In Po        G    **
 A249969-D    Hi In                   **
 A577972-C  S Hi In                   **
 B9A5A6A-A  S Hi Fl              G    *
 B478A89-C  N Hi In                   **
 A510885-D  N Na                      *
 A83088D-D  N Na Po De                *
 A7AA89A-B  N Wa Fl              G    *
 B79BAC8-9  S Hi In Wa           G    **
 A410966-C  N Hi Na In                **
 A9879C9-C    Hi                 G    *
 A365758-E  N Ag Ri              G    **
 C8B9A56-E    Hi Fl              G    *
 A124785-D  N                    G    *
 B3439A9-D    Hi In Po           G    **
 C9A3AA8-B  S Hi Fl              G    *
 C361A96-C  S Hi                 G    *
 B440AA9-B    Hi In Po De        G    **
 A7659AA-9  N Hi                 G    *
 A1228A7-C  N Na Po              G    *
 B2219A6-C  S Hi Na In Po        G    **
 A31089A-C  S Na                 G    *
 B573963-C  N Hi In              G    **
 C579AA9-B  S Hi In              G    **
 B421ABD-C  N Hi Na In Po             **
 B220ABE-C  N Hi Na In Po De          **
 B888A85-A  N Hi                 G    *
 B000877-D  N Na As              G    *
 A5209CE-C    Hi Na In Po De     G    **
 B2209BC-E    Hi Na In Po De     G    **
 A610967-B  N Hi Na In                **
 A620999-D    Hi Na In Po De          **
 A200988-D    Hi Na In Va             **
 B75A97A-C  N Hi Wa              G    *
 B3229BF-D    Hi Na In Po        G    **
 B510A9A-E    Hi Na In                **
 B475AA8-C    Hi In              G    **
 A878853-D    Ri                 G    **
 A1008A6-E  N Na Va                   *
 A41088A-D    Na                 G    *
 B99A987-B  N Hi In Wa           G    **
 A1108A9-E  N Na                      *
 B1209BC-D    Hi Na In Po De     G    **
 B878A53-B  N Hi In                   **
 B100AEF-D    Hi Na In Va             **
 A6969BE-9  N Hi In              G    **
 A100769-F    Na Va              G    *
 A3419EC-C    Hi In Po           G    **
 A1378BF-B  N                    G    *
 A340998-E    Hi In Po De             **
 A877876-B  N Ri                 G    **
 A3108CB-E  N Na                      *
 B8B5999-C  N Hi Fl              G    *
 A87A877-D    Ri Wa              G    **
 A2008A7-D    Na Va              G    *
 A46798B-C    Hi                 G    *
 B453A97-D    Hi Po                   *
 A8998CC-B  N                    G    *
 B768955-D    Hi                 G    *
 A2109CD-E    Hi Na In                **
 A1228C8-D  N Na Po                   *
 A1569A9-C    Hi                 G    *
 A000699-F  N Na Ni As           G    *
 B968A8A-B    Hi                 G    *
 A876986-A  N Hi In              G    **
 B324976-C  N Hi In              G    **
 B4639CF-B  N Hi                 G    *
 A67C9CD-E    Hi In Wa                **
 B300AAC-C    Hi Na In Va        G    **
 A5A58AA-D    Fl                 G    *
 A254983-B    Hi                 G    *
 A88D999-D    Hi Wa                   *
 B34399A-B  N Hi In Po           G    **
 C410AB6-D    Hi Na In           G    **
 A533983-B  N Hi Na Po                *
 B9A6A84-B    Hi Fl              G    *
 A241866-C  N Po                 G    *

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:42:39 -0400
From: Joseph Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Repost of Hans' freight and passenger tables

> >I mean, Low Passage offers a chance of death in cryo -
>
> Canonically they do, but they don't IMTU, since there is an alternative
> that costs almost as little and is completely safe (Fast berth - you get
> a dose of Fast drug (Cr200) and is stuffed into a bunk; at destination
> you get a shot of Fast antidote (Cr900). If properly organized (Bunk
> facilities at the destination starport) a passenger may even sleep off
> the drug without the antidote in which case Fast Berth is actually quite
> a lot cheaper than Low Berth (A lot cheaper if you allow the ship to
> stack the passengers closer than 1 to a dTon)). So IMTU Low Berth is not
> dangerous (given a competent supervising medic, that is).

Actually, you could stick them into seats like a shuttle.  I think that's three
kL per person.  IIRC one "Fast" week is less than a day apparent, thus it would
be closer to a TransAtlantic flight in analogy.

The big deal with Low Births is that your trip may be more than one jump away.
You just stay frozen the entire time.  So an extreme example may be booking low
passage to the far side of the Imperium.  Might take years real time, but its
like waking up the next day.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:06:30 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: FIASCO

On 17 Aug, Traveller-digest <owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com> wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:01:14 +0100
> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> Subject: FIASCO

> FIASCO

> MJ Dougherty

<snip>

> 	FIASCO was actually quite good fun, despite the rather lukewarm
> reception non-wargamers get. It was a shame not to have more
> role-players present, but were doing FIASCO II in November.
> Maybe things will improve....

You could always pop over to the Colchester Wargames stand and try
"Mammoth Hunting" (not Traveller, I'm afraid).

Then again, I didn't go and say "Hi" to the BITS stand at Harlow
Games Fest, which was a bit remiss of me. :-(

Phil Kitching

- -- 
- - --
  Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT for any of this, they only pay me:)
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo (sorry no Traveller)
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:25:54 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Low Berths (was re: Report of hans...)

Joseph Pettit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The big deal with Low Births is that your trip may be more than one jump away. You just stay frozen the entire time.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I thought the big deal with low births was the low Social Standing you
ended up with... <g>

I altered the odds for "Ice Rot" in my campaign so that a passenger in
a TL-12+ low berth, of average endurance, with a Medic-2 in attendance
will never wake up dead from a low berth. Every one of these factors
not up to snuff will creep the chances of a snake-eyes roll killing the
character upwards a nudge - an endurance-5 passenger in a TL 9
low berth with no medic will snuff it on a 5-, more if the berth has
been damaged. I've considered the more elaborate rules from later
versions of Traveller (dice of damage for low survival rolls), but haven't
run a Traveller campaign lately to try it out in. 

Hmmm...It just struck me that I never *told* the players that I had
softened the original low berth survival rules a bit. Maybe that explains
why the players in my original CT campaign took so many risks to
avoid using the things... <g>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:45:25 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re Passengers

>Steerage: Bunks, no steward service at all (Non-canonical).

actually, is cannon. TNE has steerage. Rates similar to low passage.

Fast berthing should be doable in half-bunks (MT's Hard Times, and, IIRC,
TNE's FF&S1). I don't allow it as a standard IMTU, but I agree it should be
available. Counts as 1/30th of a person for life support sounds about right
for the FF&S2 long term life support rules.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:54:44 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: [none]

Steve Daniels Replies:
>Subject: Important Copyright Corrections (was - Re: Copyright and the US)
>
>William, there are some important developments in copyright law that
>contradict what you have posted here.  The copyright law is not static
>and even changed this January in the US.  I'm not sure when you were
>this information but some of it is now in error and out of date.
>
Quite likely... my info was from 1992... GPO had several (1990, IIRC)
handouts on copyright rules per subject matter. At the time, there were 3
different ones just for music: Recorded, Written (scores), and Lyrics
without music. As I was a music major at the time, I didn't read much of
the rest. I read the graphic arts one due to doing some graphics work at
the time.

Unfortunately, since the rules DO keep changing (due to case law,
especially), copyright is VERY tricky. Interesting that they dropped the
"Hand Copyright".

Ob Trav Copyright, Trademark, and Patents:
I seem to recall a CT reference that states that patents are not imperially
registered, held, nor enforced...

I have assumed that this also extended to Copyright, but NOT to trademarks
IMTU. I assume all imperial charters include a limited number of trademarks
(I assumed 2 per LIC issued) hence the stable sysmbols of imperial
corporations.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>   ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Decimate et alia

- ---Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:

> >Mind you, in the case of some of the more schizophrenic megacorps, 
> >this could
> >still lead to years of legal wrangling before the two distant 
> >subsidaries
> >realized they were, in fact, parts of the same company.
> >
> 
> And it wouldn't make a difference on the outcome!
> 
> IRL - there is a major oil company that a friend of mine did some 
> consulting
> work for.  It consists of 5 major business units, and the infighting
> is
> fierce.  Part of what he (and the team he was a member of) were 
> trying to do
> was migrate them to a new e-mail system.  Most of the problems that 
> they had
> to overcome came from the fact that each business unit had it's own IT
> department, and none were willing to subordinate themselves to any
of > the
> others.  Each department had to literally be ordered to make the 
> concessions
> necessary from way, way up on high, and each decision was fought 
> (from what
> I heard) all the way up to the VP level (probably exaggerated, I'm 
> sure not
> *every* decision was contested that high...)

Sounds something like the company I work for. It is a subsidiary of
two large companies formed to allow them to work together in a certain
field and now the two parents are bidding against us in our contract.
 
Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:30:46 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep

At 10:04 AM 8/17/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody got any info on the following subsectors in Reavers Deep?
>
>A: Fardrift

For starters, sources conflict as to whether
it's "Fardrift" or "Farrift".

>B: Riftdeep
>C: Riftrim
>D: Gulf
>H: Nightrim
>
>I need world names, etc for this portion of space.  The old Pocket Empires 
>archive had a *LOTTA* good stuff, but concentrated more in the Rimward 
>portions of the Deep.


I have hardcopy of a message dated 25 Jan 1994
from Joe Heck, Subject: FOR ARCHIVES (Core.Data)

which has full 1115 UPPs for RD, along with
other stuff. Have you found this file?
It has a lot of other background info as well.

The homeworld of the Poramat (one of which featured
in "The Survivor" scenario)was going to be 0310.
I forget the name of the world I was going to use.
It has an alignment code "Ta", so the Keith Bros.
had something for it, but since we couldn't dig it
up (it had never been published) I was just going 
to overwrite with my own stuff.

That world (and the one it controls) are on a
22-world main that extends into neighboring
Aslan space, and it's seperated from human-
dominated areas by a J3 gap, so it's major
ties were to the nearby Aslan clans rather
than to the Deep proper. 

JB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:34:48 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

At 12:30 AM 8/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank's to the list for your help in stellar geography!
>
>I apologize for the posting of Col. Jessup's quote: it may
>sound cool, but the man himself is trash, is my understand-
>ing.  As far removed from military culture as I am, I thought
>that military folk would have approved (!), as I found the quote

	No apology necessary, just my own personal response to the concept that
the ends justifies the means ... which is basically where that quote seems
to lead.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:37:58 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

At 08:53 AM 8/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Seen from the Cuban perspective it's as if the Soviets maintained a naval
base
>in South Carolina throughout the cold war to the present day, and there was
>nothing we could do about it short of war to kick them out.

	Even worse than that ... we could probably have kicked the Soviets out of
South Carolina ... there's no way the Cubans could kick us out unless we
let ourselves get kicked out.

	And once a year we send them a check for about a thousand dollars, which
is the lease fee. And the lease was forever ...  I understand Castro
refuses to actually cash the checks, as a protest.

	Another place that I'm sure bred the siege mentality was West Berlin.
Possibly even worse, as you're basically right up against the real "enemy"
and not a two-bit puppet like Cuba.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:57:22 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: New GURPS TNS

Firstly Thank you Loren, as a confirmed TNS junkie I've been hanging out for 
the next thrilling installment for awhile now.

So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the Admiral will 
not make a full recovery?

Check out:

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html>

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
 Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
 bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 05:57:14 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote

>
>	Even worse than that ... we could probably have kicked the Soviets out 
of
>South Carolina ... there's no way the Cubans could kick us out unless 
we
>let ourselves get kicked out.
>

Actually, they "could" kick us out.  They could overrun the base before 
we could respond militarily (with conventional weapons).  Training 
evolutions have proven this time and time again.  However, if they did 
this, they would face the full-scale US response, which would be to take 
over Cuba.  

And as Dave said, the lease is forever.  We must mutually agree not to 
continue the lease for it to lapse.




The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:50:11 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

How totally frustrating.

I am not a fan of GURPS - I had not planned on incorporating it into my
campaign.

But I like the TNS write ups (but Lauren, you may want to have someone check
the continuity - the dates jump around pretty badly), and they are going to
continue the setting that I prefer to run my campaigns in.

(gritting teeth) - maybe it's time to revisit that decision...  (but I'm not
changing my IMTU yet!)

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
                      ^^^
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 5:02 AM
Subject: New GURPS TNS


Firstly Thank you Loren, as a confirmed TNS junkie I've been hanging out for
the next thrilling installment for awhile now.

So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the Admiral
will
not make a full recovery?

Check out:

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html>

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
Evil Overlord hint No 45
Female warriors should be issued with armour, leather thong
bikinis should be reserved for full dress uniform only.
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 11:14:23 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

On 08/18/98 at 11:57 PM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>Firstly Thank you Loren, as a confirmed TNS junkie I've been hanging
>out for  the next thrilling installment for awhile now.

AOL!

>So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the
>Admiral will  not make a full recovery?

Really?  I figured he was being "cured" of what ails him...or at
least what ailed his brother.  Of course, the *original* Admiral
Ilethian may not exist once he's cured. ;->

Loren, as someone mentioned in another post, the TNS entries are
getting jumbled as each new set of entries is added to the beginning
of the file (it sort of looks like that).  Someone needs to sit down
and spend ten minutes cutting and pasting the document source of
news.htlm to get the entries back into chronological order.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #747
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 748



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: supernovae
supernovae and blocking trade routes
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
PbEM Openings
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: FIASCO
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
Thanks, Col. Jessup, TNS
Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases
Re: supernovae and blocking trade routes
Re: Thanks, Col. Jessup, TNS
1. Underwater combat ; 2. 'Fast berthing' ; 3. Fuel purification plants ; 4. Tweaking FF&S

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:18:14 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: supernovae

>They aren't that rare. There's about one supernova VISIBLE TO THE NAKED
>EYE every 500-1000 years in the galaxy. Telescopicly we observe several
>a *year*.
>
>A galaxy has a *lot* of stars.
>

We observe several supernovae a year, but all are in external galaxies.
The typical supernova rate is thought to be about one per fifty years
per milky-way-sized galaxy. As Leonard says, only one per five hundred years
are so has been visible to the naked eye, largely because the plane of our
galaxy contains enough dust to render the rest invisible. We've only had
the technology to detect "invisible" supernovae (through infrared or neutrino
emissions) for about twelve years. (There was a supernovae in the magellenic
clouds, a mere 150,000 light years away, that was (barely) naked-eye visible
eleven years ago.)

One per fifty years per galaxy => 1x10^-13 / star / year. Charted space is 
maybe 400 parsecs on a side in Traveller, containing perhaps 80,000 stars,
so we would expect about 1 supernova per 100,000,000 years within its
boundaries.

If we pretend our galaxy is two dimensional, though, we then get 1 supernovae
per 1x10^10 square parsecs per year, or one every 62,000 years in the 
Imperium. 

Still a low enough rate that I woudl say no "official" supernovae should be
enshrined in Traveller canon.  (If nothing else, it would be a tremendous
coincidence to have *two* such events within the Imperium, and every referee
should have the option of blowing up one of their own stars.)

Supernova "kill radius" is a highly debated number - between 10 and 100 
light years is the typical value for wiping out an ecosystem and/or causing
a dinsosaur-killing mass-extinction.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:24:18 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: supernovae and blocking trade routes

One could probably come up with some less drastic ways to block a 
jump route. A conventional nova (outburst due to matter accreting onto a 
white dwarf star) could blow the biosphere - and the water - off of a 
terrestrial-type planet in the same system, rendering it no longer useable
for ocean refuelling.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:12:25 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the Admiral 
> will not make a full recovery?

Eris Reddoch figures:

> Really?  I figured he was being "cured" of what ails him...or at
> least what ailed his brother.  Of course, the *original* Admiral
> Ilethian may not exist once he's cured. ;->

Well, that takes care of another ringleader of the plot.  (Hutara 
brought his fleet over to Dulinor on almost the same day in the MT
timeline).  Note his watchdog "new aide", Lieutenant hault-Musillo.
We know where Isis ended up, so there aren't too many loose ends 
left undone; except, of course, where the point of divergence is 
and how the Imperium found out.

  -- Steve Bonneville
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:30:48 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

At 01:12 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Well, that takes care of another ringleader of the plot.  (Hutara 
>brought his fleet over to Dulinor on almost the same day in the MT
>timeline).  Note his watchdog "new aide", Lieutenant hault-Musillo.
>We know where Isis ended up, so there aren't too many loose ends 
>left undone; except, of course, where the point of divergence is 
>and how the Imperium found out.


Perhaps Daddy Dulinor sent Isis to her room once too often and she tipped
INI.  ;-)

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:13:32 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Eris wrote:

> Loren, as someone mentioned in another post, the TNS entries are
> getting jumbled as each new set of entries is added to the beginning
> of the file (it sort of looks like that).  Someone needs to sit down
> and spend ten minutes cutting and pasting the document source of
> news.htlm to get the entries back into chronological order.

The G:T TNS batches are in reverse order.  The first one is at the bottom,
latest at the top.  If people are saving these, they're seperated a horizontal
rule.  It should be easy enough for interested parties to chop em up
themselves.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:29:48 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: PbEM Openings

I have decide to open up two more player slots for my non-canon PbEM, The
Scattered Worlds.  If anyone is interested, please let me know, and I'll
send you the information.  


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:37:48 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

>
>The G:T TNS batches are in reverse order.  The first one is at the bottom,
>latest at the top.  If people are saving these, they're seperated a
horizontal
>rule.  It should be easy enough for interested parties to chop em up
>themselves.


This is the order that the TNS dispatches are on the page:
152-1116
212-1116
215-1116
230-1116

137-1116
140-1116
145-1116

131-1116
132-1116
137-1116

Now, you are right.  I can easily figure this out (and did) and set the
timeline straight.  I've also been playing Traveller since 1977.  I'm also
very familiar with the storyline and the layout of TNS messages.  I strongly
recommend that the TNS be laid out in either forward or reverse order
(reverse would probably be best), and that they be consistant.

For someone who is not familiar with the TNS layout, who is reading this as
new, it could be very distracting.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 14:48:24 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

On 08/18/98 at 02:30 PM,  Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> said:

>>Well, that takes care of another ringleader of the plot.  (Hutara 
>>brought his fleet over to Dulinor on almost the same day in the MT
>>timeline).  Note his watchdog "new aide", Lieutenant hault-Musillo.
>>We know where Isis ended up, so there aren't too many loose ends 
>>left undone; except, of course, where the point of divergence is 
>>and how the Imperium found out.

>Perhaps Daddy Dulinor sent Isis to her room once too often and she
>tipped INI.  ;-)

Might be more to that than you think.  Isis was reported to be a
close friend of the Grand Princess.  It's very possible her
friendship to Impegina (sp) and loyalty to the Imperium outweighed
her loyalty to her father.  She did get elevated to Arch Duchess
*awfully* quickly after Daddy Dulinor went boom...*if* he went boom.

Does Prince Varian's sudden departure for the Spinward Marches have
anything to do with all this?  Is he hunting for something...or
someone out there?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 14:50:47 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

On 08/18/98 at 03:13 PM,  TravelrTNE@aol.com said:

>The G:T TNS batches are in reverse order.  The first one is at the
>bottom, latest at the top.  If people are saving these, they're
>seperated a horizontal rule.  It should be easy enough for interested
>parties to chop em up themselves.

Gary, I thought *you* weren't interested. ;->

It took me 2 minutes to put them into chronological order with simple cut and paste.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:02:46 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Just checking in briefly to say hi after a few months' absence.  What's all
this copyright law stuff?  I feel bad for having introduced fusion dildos and
egged on the Spofulams; obviously the moral tenor of the list has plummeted
even lower.  I'll be here for about a week before I move out east and start
school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What fun!

How's everyone?

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:22:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: FIASCO

Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 17 Aug, Traveller-digest <owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com> wrote:
>Then again, I didn't go and say "Hi" to the BITS stand at Harlow
>Games Fest, which was a bit remiss of me. :-(

I popped down. All 250 miles. ;-) It went very well. I will be putting up
some pictures on my website as soon as I finish the stuff for GenCon.


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:23:50 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com <Kenjomatic@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 5:13 PM
Subject: Hello, citizens of the TML!


>Just checking in briefly to say hi after a few months' absence.  What's all
>this copyright law stuff?  I feel bad for having introduced fusion dildos
and
>egged on the Spofulams; obviously the moral tenor of the list has plummeted
>even lower.  I'll be here for about a week before I move out east and start
>school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
>those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What
fun!
>
>How's everyone?
>
>-------------
>Kenji Schwarz

Hi Kenji, welcome back! Just where "back east" here are you going to school?
I'd like to know just how deep to make the shelter ;>

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:27:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:50:11 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
> I am not a fan of GURPS - I had not planned on incorporating it into my
> campaign.

> But I like the TNS write ups (but Lauren, you may want to have someone check
> the continuity - the dates jump around pretty badly), and they are going to
> continue the setting that I prefer to run my campaigns in.
> 
> (gritting teeth) - maybe it's time to revisit that decision...  (but I'm not
> changing my IMTU yet!)

You could always just use the GURPS Traveller source books.
Behind the Claw (which covers the Spinward Marches) is in
playtest now ans should mesh smoothly with all your old
material.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:14:20 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

>You could always just use the GURPS Traveller source books.
>Behind the Claw (which covers the Spinward Marches) is in
>playtest now ans should mesh smoothly with all your old
>material.


That's true - they shouldn't be any harder to translate to my hodgepodge
than some of the other adventures I've snagged.

I feel much better!  Thanks!  :^)

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:43:56 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Thanks, Col. Jessup, TNS

  >Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:40 EDT
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Query: High pop systems / Important Worlds * Long List *
>
>Alvin Plummer asked what the typical high-pop worlds
>in the Imperium sort of look like.  Using the random world
>generation system, I came up with a list of "important"
>worlds from a sample size of 10,000.
>

Many thanks!  I will be using your system to help determine
the more important systems in The Empty Quarter, when I can squeeze
out the time....

Also, a tip of the hat to Leonard Erickson: even though I decided to
scotch the supernova in EQ, the info is still very useful for all Traveller
ref's - including those who decided to keep B. Niobe exploding.


Space is so large, and the Imperium so tiny....

>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:34:48 -0400
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
>
>At 12:30 AM 8/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Thank's to the list for your help in stellar geography!
>>
>>I apologize for the posting of Col. Jessup's quote: it may
>>sound cool, but the man himself is trash, is my understand-
>>ing.  As far removed from military culture as I am, I thought
>>that military folk would have approved (!), as I found the quote
>
> No apology necessary, just my own personal response to the concept that
>the ends justifies the means ... which is basically where that quote seems
>to lead.
>

When I read that quote, I was thinking of the many risk's that soldiers
take to protect the lives of their fellow citizens, and applying civilian
standards to a military situation is rather unwise and can be implicitly,
loathsomely santimonius (as well as fatal). The use of this truth by
Col. Jessup to justify violating the constitution that he swore to protect
was
not in my mind at the time (although, on reflection, that was obviously
what Col.Jessup was trying to do).

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:37:58 -0400
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Fw: EQ thanks, Apology for quote
>
<snip>
>
> Another place that I'm sure bred the siege mentality was West Berlin.
>Possibly even worse, as you're basically right up against the real "enemy"
>and not a two-bit puppet like Cuba.


I seem to remember several isolated Imperial worlds in Solomani space,
in Solomani Rim sector.  That's about it, though - until the Rebellion
Era....

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:57:22 +1200
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: New GURPS TNS
>
>Firstly Thank you Loren, as a confirmed TNS junkie I've been hanging out
for
>the next thrilling installment for awhile now.
>

I've been checking that site every two days or so, just in case....

>So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the Admiral
will
>not make a full recovery?
>

Heh.  Personally, I expect the Imperium to be more subtle then that,
especially with TL G technology available to them.

In the meantime, I wonder whatever happened to the Illeish Guard?

Lorean, I know you are probably drowning in work right now, but after
the tidal wave,  do you plan to update TNS on a regular basis, say
bi-weekly?
Will you skip 1117-1119, and go straight to 1120?   Or will it be a "special
event" notice board?

<snip>

>Andrew etc.
>  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>IMTU Code
>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

If I have my code correct, I would be
tc++ tm-- tn+ !t4 ?tg>++ ru--
ge+++ (gear AND background: I'd detail the Imperium to the city level,
              if I could just find the time...)
3i+++ jt- au-- st++ ls ?kk>++ (Human's are built to run on a vegie diet!
Truth!)
hi--() so++ vi(++) da sy- va(+) zh(-) dr-(--) as+(++) sw


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:50:11 -0700
>From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
>Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS
>
>How totally frustrating.
>
>I am not a fan of GURPS - I had not planned on incorporating it into my
>campaign.
>
>But I like the TNS write ups (but Lauren, you may want to have someone
check
>the continuity - the dates jump around pretty badly), and they are going to
>continue the setting that I prefer to run my campaigns in.
>
>(gritting teeth) - maybe it's time to revisit that decision...  (but I'm
not
>changing my IMTU yet!)
>

If you like where you are (say,TNE) stay there, and just buy the
GURPS book's as background material.  Actually, most GURPS books
*are* background material, if I remember correctly.
You will be in a position to work in a living, changing
Imperium with whatever rules you please.

Especially as one of the Stated Goals of GURPS:Traveller is to republish
lot's of classic Traveller material in an updated form - which remind's me,
when *should* we expect the Alien books?

>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
>IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls

<snip>

>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 11:14:23 -0500
>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
>Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS
>
>On 08/18/98 at 11:57 PM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:
>
>>Firstly Thank you Loren, as a confirmed TNS junkie I've been hanging
>>out for  the next thrilling installment for awhile now.
>
>AOL!
>
What-that?

>>So something is definitely afoot, who wants to take bets that the
>>Admiral will  not make a full recovery?
>
>Really?  I figured he was being "cured" of what ails him...or at
>least what ailed his brother.  Of course, the *original* Admiral
>Ilethian may not exist once he's cured. ;->
>

In Milleu 0, Sylea at TL C was already rewriting personalities, with
unfortunate self-destructive side-effects.  I'm sure that the 1110's
Imperium, with access to TL G, has it down to a few small tweaks -
the dear Admiral won't feel a thing.

Whether his niece will approve is, of course, an entirely different
matter....

 >- -----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:42:44 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases

At 08:33 AM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Re: Guantanamo
>  BTW, when does the lease run out there? (I imagine that the IN is glad
>to rarely [if ever] have to deal with basing rights issues within the 3I)

	IIRC, never.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:46:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: supernovae and blocking trade routes

In mail you write:

> One could probably come up with some less drastic ways to block a 
> jump route. A conventional nova (outburst due to matter accreting onto a 
> white dwarf star) could blow the biosphere - and the water - off of a 
> terrestrial-type planet in the same system, rendering it no longer useable
> for ocean refuelling.

Can you give us some numbers (in Traveller terms) for a system that has
novas? Things like size of the non-white dwarf companion, and the
corresponding orbital distance?

Also, what are the effects of a Nova like insystem? And how bright does
it get outsystem?

I'd think that there ought to be a few novas in the explored area.

For that matter, how common are Cepheid variables (and other variable
star types). They'd make for interesting systems, assuming planets are
possible.
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:02:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Col. Jessup, TNS

In mail you write:

>   >Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:40 EDT
>>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>>Subject: Query: High pop systems / Important Worlds * Long List *
>>
>>Alvin Plummer asked what the typical high-pop worlds
>>in the Imperium sort of look like.  Using the random world
>>generation system, I came up with a list of "important"
>>worlds from a sample size of 10,000.
>>
>
> Many thanks!  I will be using your system to help determine
> the more important systems in The Empty Quarter, when I can squeeze
> out the time....
>
> Also, a tip of the hat to Leonard Erickson: even though I decided to
> scotch the supernova in EQ, the info is still very useful for all Traveller
> ref's - including those who decided to keep B. Niobe exploding.
>
>
> Space is so large, and the Imperium so tiny....

I've been thinking of suggesting that a table similar to mine would be
a good use of a page somewhere in the next edition of the rules. It'd
give refs a quick reference for everything from the effects of
supernovas, to how long it'll take that misjumped ship to reach the
nearest star system. Or how long it'll take for their (radioed) call
for help to get there) :-)

And if we stick in some "local color" items such as nova stars, then
you can use it to figure out when they'd be seen in various systems.
Makes a nice bit to drop into things when the local news tells folks to
keep an eye on the sky because the XXX nova should be visible soon.
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:33:32 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: 1. Underwater combat ; 2. 'Fast berthing' ; 3. Fuel purification plants ; 4. Tweaking FF&S

I've just managed to catch up with the accumulated mail.

1. The correspondence generated by "Mark Seemann" 's initial query was
interesting.
In the TNE rules, energy weapons are described as having a 'pilot laser'
which ionises
the air to form a conduit for the plasma bolt.
Why couldn't a similar device (appropriate wavelength laser or sonics)
be used underwater,
avoiding the messy steam explosion problem ?
The same trick could be used to fire missiles through the water at
transonic (?) velocities
- - a la the old 'Subwars' game by MicroProse.
Other possibilities include taser type weapons fired like conventional
spear guns (elastic/compressed gas) ; sonic or electrical grenades
(though conventional HE would be
much cheaper) ; and rocketry or torpedoes (natch).

2. Using fast drug to act as a no-frills 'passage adjuvant' would be
interesting, to say the least. The ship's medic would have to turn the
passengers several times a day to prevent the formation of pressure
sores. (Inferring from my experience of patients with spinal cord
lesions).
I wonder if fast drug also acts as a muscle relaxant - are your muscles
proportionately less flexible? If it does so, you will need to be placed
on artificial ventilation regardless of
your metabolic rate.
Imagine having a blurry human form glide up to you and try moving your
arm or leg into position - ten or thirty times, or more, faster than
your nervous system (maintaining posture through proprioception) will
permit - SNAP!
I think I'd take low passage - it's more invasive, and you're unconcious
- - but, 'paradoxically' it's safer as a result, as attending personnel
get advance warnings of disaster. If they pay
attention.....
Drugs are not without risk - ?anaphylaxis, unpredictable reactions eg.
total skin dequamation
with penicillin and sulphonamides...., interactions with other drugs...

3. Fuel purification plants - enigmatic little black boxes, aren't they?

Each cubic metre of gizmo burns from 5 to 10 kW per six hours per cubic
metre of 'fuel
processed' , according to FF&S 4.1.
I would have thought one of the most efficient ways of sorting gas giant
scrapings or water, or whatever, would be to plasma torch it and use
mass spectrometry (different ionised species move differently in
electric and/or magnetic field).
It's difficult to reconcile the listed power consumption with the
advertised performance ;
you would need lots of power to heat up your inlet mixture and cool down
the stuff that comes out the other side...
An alternative would be to use high performance gas (or liquid)
chromatography. Less power is needed to run the compressors.
What do you do with your 'waste' gasses - or do you crack ammonia and
methane down to nitrogen and carbon dioxide respectively via a plasma
torch first, and vent what you can't use (although ammonia and methane
might be useful for the ship's extended life support system..) ?
It's difficult to get deuterium this way (1 per 14000 hydrogen atoms or
less).....

4. A question for the gearheads :-
Why are some Traveller power plants either grossly inefficient eg.
fusion and fission or
thermodynamically ridiculous eg. low tech steam ?

i. Fusion - as published, efficiency is substantially less than one
percent.
Assuming 0.5% mass conversion per fusion, one litre of liquid hydrogen
is required to generate a megawatt-year (albeit at 100% efficiency).
High-temperature superconductors should be around by TL9 or 10 ; 10%
efficiency should be easy to achieve (doesn't zero electrical resistance
imply almost perfect heat transmission, within the limit of the Second
Law of Thermodynamics?)
The 'evil that is Fusion Plus' is even worse. My guess is that it is an
intrinsically less efficient proposition because :-
     a. Heavy water requires electrolysis ;
     b. You need some energetically expensive processes to generate
muonic atoms.
(I suppose that electrons in the hydrogen are replaced with muons to
make the atoms smaller, and hence easier to approximate and fuse in this
contraption!)
The copious amounts of steam given off make this kind of power plant
'non-stealthy'.

ii. Fission - IG don't proofread too well. Either that or someone has a
distinct anti-nuke bias.
Fission plants burn way too much fuel.
Breeder reactor technology was described at TL 5. We're only just
starting to explore the more advanced designs now, in the Real
World(tm).
For a 1 MW equivalent plant, you're looking at about 250kg fuel per year
(enriched uranium
oxide, carbide or nitride with about 3% U235).
If you recycle the fuel (U-Pu recycling), you end up requiring 2 to 5 kg
per year to top up!
Radioactives should have a density of about 10 tonnes per cubic metre to
reflect that you're
using salts instead of elemental metal.
The nuclear thermal rockets listed from the adapted George Herbert table
are broken.
Fuel consumption should read :-
NTR - 7         5.94
NTR - 8         5.90
AdvNTR - 8   4.17
GCNTR - 9    2.5

iii. Antimatter - some of the pods are more than 100% efficient.
For a 1 to 1 mixture of  liquid hydrogen and antihydrogen, five litres
will produce 1000MW
per year at 100% efficiency....

Sorry for being a grizzleguts.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #748
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 749



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
G:T TNS Fnord
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Underwater fire combat
Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Why Iridium?
re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table
Re: Underwater combat
Re: Avalon Hill (OT)
Re: Apology for Quote Not Needed
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
The Dean Files, GENII Files, Traveller Adventure Computer Game -- new CORE site
Re: New GURPS TNS Entry
Fall Travel Planner
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Underwater combat
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: New GURPS TNS Entry
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
World maps
Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!
Weapons expert needed
Re: Fall Travel Planner
Re: Weapons expert needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:43:03 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Welcome back, Kenji!

Looking forward to more insane creations from you :-)

Side note: Is the CSC vehicle design system available for Linux or Windows
yet? I have created a Linux (or any platform, it's C) version of the SSDS,
but I will make a separate post about that.

On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 Kenji Schwarz wrote:

<snip>
> school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
> those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What fun!

Welcome into the fold, so to speak. I got back to my connection only a few
days ago.

> How's everyone?

Well... You don't really want answers from *every* member of the list, do
you?   ;)

Anyway... I'm fine. Hope you all are. Now we're going to get down to some
serious flamewars... :-)

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:37:57 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: G:T TNS Fnord

I love consipracy theories, and this all is just begging for one

The facts:

On 131-1116 Archduke Dulinor's gig blows up killing Dulinor. Then the senior 
officers in the Ilelish Guard resign and the Ilelish Guard is pulled off duty 
protecting the Emperor. Dulinor's daughter Isis is appointed to succead him as 
Archduke and his brother resigns as Sector Admiral. Meanwhile Prince Varian 
leaves Capital and disappears.

The engimas:

Was Dulinor planning to assassinate Strephon? if so why not just arrest him for 
treason, was the Empire worried about the scandel, did they lack evidence to 
be sure, was it Strephon's "gift" to a friend (an honourable death)? Why was his 
daughter appointed to succead him? Surely the Empire would not put the 
daughter of a traitor in such a position. Why have the other "conspirators" been 
allowed to live? If you can alter their personalities why not alter Dulinor's? Why 
did Prince Varian suddenly leave Capital? We know from MT that prior to 131 
both he and Prince Lucan had been planning to travel together later in the year. 
Was Lucan "in on the plot"? Was the Type TJ that arrived and snarled up traffic 
on 212 carrying the real Strephon from the Longbow project? If it was then it 
had to have left before Dulinor's gig exploded. When Admiral Hutara's 
resignation was announced in 244 it stated that he was resigning to 
concentrate on the family business now his neice had been made Archduke. 
However Isis was not appointed as Archduchess until 140, even at jump 6 the 
news could not have reached Dlan by 244; however the news of Dulinor's death 
would have just reached Dlan on 243. But yet there's the fact that the press 
statement says the Admiral had been ill for a few days. If so did the orders to 
remove Hutara leave before 131 (I haven't done the sums, but if the TJ on 212 
was Strephon, then I think the orders to remove Hutara could have left Capital 
at the same time as the "recall" went out to Strephon).

The "wildcard":
Duke Norris. Appointed as Archduke of Deneb and summoned to Capital for 
001-1117 (meaning jump 6 there and back) along with Lady Isis. Is this just a 
red herring or is there something deeper here?

Hmmm, its all very interesting. Loren, can we expect more hints in G:T or BTC.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:41:31 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Hmm... I didn't look that closely at the dates... u're right, they're all
scrambled... Oh well.  : )

Eris wrote:

> Gary, I thought *you* weren't interested. ;->

D'oh!  I gotta get rid of this voice-typing thingy...  Now i've been caught. ;
)  I never said I wasn't interested... just was opposed to the concept...  Of
course, my Traveller addiction wasn't satisfied by T4...  That was bad juju!  

As far as how they've found out...  Remember Dulinor had those pre-recorded
messages of himself that so helped to solidify public opinion?  Most likely
INI (and the TJ network) found them very interesting.   Plus, the same
accidents would've still happened (Household Cavalry guard's gun discharging)
and the other regiments going on alert.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:54:57 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Underwater fire combat

>Depends on the frequency.  Beams that would work best underwater
>would be in the UV range, and might have to be specially designed
>for underwater work.  Shorter range than in atmosphere and problems
>with heating the surrounding water, certainly.

Eh, I thought UV had a really hard time penetrating water.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:05:44 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship Fuel Purification Plants - How?

>Let's see...  There would be *heavy* wind currents in the upper atmosphere
>of a GG.  Probably on the order of hundreds of klicks per hour.  Don't
>quote me on it, it's been about 25 years since I've studied any kind of
>physics.
>
>Keven

Normal Cessnas etc easily can take "hundreds of klicks per hour". The
problem will be turbulence etc.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:17:43 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

>No, you forget that pressure works out to energy per *volume*. So you
>get closer to r^3 than r^2. Check out tables of blast effects for
>nukes or other large explosions. First approximation is inverse cube.
>
>In fact the standard crater diameter formula uses 1/r^3.4!
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

When I hear the word inverse cubed I reach for my Rheinmetall.

Well, I have a book on weapon design (non gamerelated, the real thing) and
in it I've found a formula for pressure being proportional to inverse
square of range. They also mention that it is pressure that does the
destruction.

The reason crater diameters are roughly prop to 1/r^3 is that explosive
energy is more or less prop to the mass of matter blown away. That is not
the acse for a travelling wave in water or air.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:19:33 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Why Iridium?

>I know the name of the site but I can't *spell* it. Chix<something>

Yes, that is exactly how to spell it ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:22:18 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Repost of Hans' Freight and Passenger table

>Marketing effects would drive the Economy/Middle/High passage distinction
>higher, I suspect, in the same fashion that business and first class
>airfare is *much* higher than economy; first class gets perhaps one more
>attnedent
>of dedicated service (negligible cost) and occupies seats that take ~2
>seats room but cost much more than twice what economy does.
>The price delta isn't set by the cost delta but by the value delta, as it
>were. (And by the fact that most people aren't paying their own money to
>fly business class, of course.)
>
>Bruce

Or rather big airliners are more economical per seat so the few business
travellers have to subsidize the economy class passengers in order to get
cheaper fares themselves. If everybody travelled at cost in airliners there
wouldn't be much nonbusiness travel and the airlines would have to use
smaller planes thus increasing the business ticket prices.

Or so they say...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:27:02 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

>        Or there are some interesting programs out there. I got my hands on
>one at my last job, that was even unclassified! They were just gonna
>throw it out.  Also, the High Energy Weapons Archive has some
>fascinating stuff, including spreadsheets for the truly gearheaded
>and/or interested ...
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>

URLs URLs URLS
Calling somebody "truly gearheaded", is that a compliment or an insult?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:29:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill (OT)

>Gee, World Cup soccer/football is watched by nearly one quarter of the
>planet and it "takes more than an hour to play" one game.  I guess it shows
>you what 1+ billion people know...

Yes, and those gameboards are a LOT more expensive then the nice cardboard
ones in Avalon Hill games. Not to mention the playing pieces...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:33:00 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Apology for Quote Not Needed

>   Protecting everyone's liberty IS necessary if you are to keep your own.
>But, while not required, it would be nice if those that do the protecting
>occasionally heard a "Thank You." Either way, they'll still understand and
>follow their duty to "stand the wall."
>     J. LaRosee, USAF, Capt., Ret.

Gee, aren't you guys paid to work and entered the service with open eyes.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 05:27:44 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Kenji!  Welcome back!

>even lower.  I'll be here for about a week before I move out east and 
start
>school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being 
one of
>those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What 
fun!
>
>How's everyone?


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:27:40 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@fiastl.net>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Well,
Snip

Errr, glad to have you back
(look shut up, I'mm typing, yes I know he's back ..... well maybe he's
improved or something. You knowe gotten even less rational)

Looking forward to your "posts" or "rants" or well whatever
Always entertained.

Pat Connaughton


- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com <Kenjomatic@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 4:13 PM
Subject: Hello, citizens of the TML!


>Just checking in briefly to say hi after a few months' absence.  What's all
>this copyright law stuff?  I feel bad for having introduced fusion dildos
and
>egged on the Spofulams; obviously the moral tenor of the list has plummeted
>even lower.  I'll be here for about a week before I move out east and start
>school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
>those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What
fun!
>
>How's everyone?
>
>-------------
>Kenji Schwarz
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:58:43 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: The Dean Files, GENII Files, Traveller Adventure Computer Game -- new CORE site

The CORE website has completed it annual maintenance. It can be found on:
    http://www.nova.org/~sol/core
(The old link to members.nova.org still works.)

New featured sections:

THE DEAN FILES
   347 MegaTraveller Ship designs by the prolific R.S.Dean ranging from a
TL4  Longboat to a TL16 SDB.
    If others have MegaTraveller ships they would also like listed, I'm
more than happy to increase the files.
    If someone has a large archive of ships from some other Traveller
vehicle design system, I'd also be happy to consider hosting that.

ASTROGATION
    Many years ago GDW posted sector information to the GENII BBS. This
migrated later to Sunbane. These were a great service to the Traveller
on-line community but both of these are now gone. I've tried to gather
together this information again, plus as much other astrogation information
we know about the Imperium and beyond.
    The concept of "charted space" was presented in several DGP
publications. This area covered 550 sectors and, basically, comprised
dot-plot information. On the CORE site you will find 550 sector files in
GENII format. Most of these, sadly, are empty. But I've tried to collect
all the information I could on the rest. So far 64 sectors have more than
place-holding information.
    If any of you have painstakingly type in sectors from dot-plots, I'd
love to hear from you. It would be really useful to have all this sort of
information available in once place. Space is limited, though, and the
archive is restricted to top level information. I know many people out
there have developed detailed information on subsections, systems and
worlds. If you send me you links, I'm happy to link that part of the
astrogation database into your web-site. Hell, if you just have a web-site
and would like to give it some "locality", let me know the planet of your
choice and I'll link it in.

THE TRAVELLER ADVENTURE
    In the spirit of the Solitaire Play option of Classic Traveller and the
grand campaign Traveller Adventure a Traveller Computer trading game has
been created. (You need a Java 1.1 browser to run it.) Trade commodities
between planets and try to pay off your mortgage. Dice with the law.
Discover Pirate Bases and sell your passengers (or crew) off as slaves!

    Feedback, as always, is welcome.

         Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:11:19 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS Entry

I personally loathe the GURPS game system, but I regularly buy the GURPS
settings/background books.  They tend to be background heavy and rules
light, and are very easy to use in other game systems.  I certainly intend
on buying the new GURPS Traveller books, but it will be played using TNE
rules.

Steven Charlton

Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:50:11 -0700, "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
> I am not a fan of GURPS - I had not planned on incorporating it into my
> campaign.

> But I like the TNS write ups (but Lauren, you may want to have someone
check
> the continuity - the dates jump around pretty badly), and they are going
to
> continue the setting that I prefer to run my campaigns in.
>
> (gritting teeth) - maybe it's time to revisit that decision...  (but I'm
not
> changing my IMTU yet!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:22:55 -0700
From: Kaleem Witcher <features@internetwire.com>
Subject: Fall Travel Planner

MSNBC Fall Travel Planner (http://www.msnbc.com/news/FALLTRAVEL_Front.asp) Travel Editor Robin Dalmas travels to New Mexico to report on a virtual hot-air balloon ride over the Albuquerque desert. Plus: Explore four Napa Valley Wineries, including one run by Francis Ford Coppola, through audio, video and surround videos. Use our Napa Valley Resource Kit to plan your trip for fall harvest time. Finally, meander through a lesser-known fall foliage drive through Rhode Island. And use MSNBC'S Travel Toolkit http://www.msnbc.com/Modules/Travel/toolkit.asp to book and buy your fall travel on Expedia.com, including air fares, auto rentals and accommodations.

Kaleem Witcher
InternetWire


http://www.internetwire.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:08:08 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

I wonder (given the "no UPP's in GURPS" attitude recently taken) what
GURPS-only players will make of the UPPs at the start of each entry?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

Anders Backman writes:
> When I hear the word inverse cubed I reach for my Rheinmetall.
> 
> Well, I have a book on weapon design (non gamerelated, the real thing) and
> in it I've found a formula for pressure being proportional to inverse
> square of range. They also mention that it is pressure that does the
> destruction.

That's weird, if you find explosive safety manuals they tend to specify that at
a distance of X*(quantity*quality of explosives)^1/3 there will be a certain
level of damage.  If you find statistics on overpressure effects of nuclear
weapons you find that the destructive radius of the shockwave is about .32 in
explosive force (destructive radius of the flash is about .41).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:21:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

That it's a bit of TNS-Speak, a computer code, something like that. The
truly paranoid among them would think it's some sort of secret code, and
labor mightily to decipher it.

<fnord>
it _is_ a secret code, of course...hidden in honored Templar
tradition...in plain sight. What do you think UPC codes _are_
anyway...you don't _really_ think they're just an inventory tag...do
you?
</fnord>

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> I wonder (given the "no UPP's in GURPS" attitude recently taken) what
> GURPS-only players will make of the UPPs at the start of each entry?
> 
> Bruce

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> I wonder (given the "no UPP's in GURPS" attitude recently taken) what
> GURPS-only players will make of the UPPs at the start of each entry?
> 
> Bruce

Either (1) they'll actually know what it means, or (2) they'll consider it to
be gobbledygood like stardates in star trek.  In either case, since the UPP
isn't important to understanding the content of the TNS entry, it will probably
be ignored.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:14:14 +0100
From: "Graham Spearing" <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS Entry

What ho chaps,

Back on the TML after a few years, popping in to say hello
(thanks Eris!). I think it was all TNE last time I was around -
don't Traveller versions fly by when you're not looking.

[Steven Charlton wrote]
>I personally loathe the GURPS game system, but I regularly buy
the GURPS
>settings/background books.

The other nice thing about the GURPS edition is that it will make
a conversion to FUDGE really easy!

Pip pip
Graham
http://www.eldamar.demon.co.uk/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:38:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

>From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
...
>Just checking in briefly to say hi after a few months' absence.  What's all
>this copyright law stuff?  I feel bad for having introduced fusion dildos and
>egged on the Spofulams; obviously the moral tenor of the list has plummeted
>even lower.  I'll be here for about a week before I move out east and start
>school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
>those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What fun!

  Keep in mind that we can't be sure that this mail comes from the real
Kenji - it could be yet another imposter. As a rule of thumb you shouldn't
consider a message to be from the Real Kenji (tm)* unless:

 - you definitely feel that the technology proposed should be considered as
Something That Man Wasn't Meant To Know (or Woman/Sayat/farm animal/Vargr,
etc.),
or at the very least Something That Man Doesn't Want To Hear About (in which
case Woman/Sayat/farm animal/Vargr, etc. may have a different view).

 - you feel sufficiently outraged to gather some villages together to go and
burn the heretic, although you also recognize that explaining why might merely
endanger further spread of the corruption.

 - you're not quite clear about the salient points of the essay but are damned
certain that it's some form of subversive clap-trap, however impressive.

  * - see, the copyright thread does have practical applications!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:37:45 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: World maps

Help, Help!

Some kind soul sent me GIFs he had done of blank planetary map 
sheets. Unfortunately, I recently reformatted my hard-drive and 
these files were some of what was regrettably lost. Could this kind 
person please email me again? Much thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:08:23 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!

Mike Peters wrote:

>Hi Kenji, welcome back! Just where "back east" here are you going to school?
>I'd like to know just how deep to make the shelter ;>

Well, shelters aren't going to help, I'm afraid.  I was looking at FF&S the
other day, and realized, hey! why couldn't you just put thruster plates on a
big old asteroid and aim it a planet?  Pretty qewl, huh?  I'm aiming mine at
Boston, for the record.

(Sorry, Jens -- I'll try to get more inflammatory material soon.  Right now
I'm tangled up in a debate over Vilani kinship and circling around
sociobiology on TravLang.)

Mr. Hudson -- what's all this about "ANOTHER imposter"??? Eh?  Have some very,
very naughty little boys and girls and -- er -- other comrades -- been
impersonating us, I mean me?  Tsk tsk tsk.  I'm afraid the impending release
of _Sayat: The New Era_ will have to resolve the matter.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:30:54 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Weapons expert needed

I've been thinking about the nature of firearms in Traveller and thought of
4 questions
I'm unable to answer (I'm not that familiar with real-life firearms). I'd
appreciate any
help. My questions are:

1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
rounds or
just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?

2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the barrel
help or hurt
such a weapon?

3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
cooking off?

4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces are
using
such a round.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:41:46 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Fall Travel Planner

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Kaleem Witcher wrote:

<spam message snipped>

I sent a reply to this person, and I was very polite. Let's see if I
perhaps even get a reply, when the person realizes the mistake (s)he just
made.

Honestly, I don't think so, but nevermind.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:51:19 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In a message dated 8/19/98 2:30:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
David.Smart@ons.octel.com writes:

<< My questions are:
 
 1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
 rounds or just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?

*** Rifling the barrel requires that the barrel be heavier; instead, the slug
is rifled so it spins. Most slugs are rifled by default.
 
 2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the barrel
 help or hurt  such a weapon?

*** Most of the heat produced by a rifle comes not from the chemical energy
but instead from the friction between the bullet and the barrel. If that
friction could be reduced, the (a) propellent required would be reduced, or
(b) the bullet velocity would be increased. There is some conjecture that a
frictionless or near frictionless barrel (perhaps a teflon coated bullet)
would make it possible to achieve full 9mm power with an unlocked breech
pistol like a PPK.
 
 3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
cooking off?

*** This is often judged by "how many rounds have been fired in the immediate
past" and how long the unfired cartridge now sits in the hot chamber.

Estimate: 200 to 300 rounds in the last couple minutes. Cook-off in 30
seconds.

 4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces are
using such a round.)

*** Yes. Its a major problem with caseless.
 
  >>

Marc Miller

(BTW, these are really good questions).

M

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #749
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 750



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: World maps 
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #749
Re: Underwater combat
Re: 1. Underwater combat ; 2. 'Fast berthing' ; 3. Fuel purification plants ; 4. Tweaking FF&S
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #749
Re: Apology for Quote Not Needed
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Weapons expert needed
Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #743
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Underwater combat
Re: New GURPS TNS
K & R industry, Mercenaries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:49:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: World maps 

> Help, Help!
> 
> Some kind soul sent me GIFs he had done of blank planetary map 
> sheets. Unfortunately, I recently reformatted my hard-drive and 
> these files were some of what was regrettably lost. Could this kind 
> person please email me again? Much thanks.

There's some blanks on my Traveller site:

http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:00:04 -0400
From: Daniel Mendyke <Daniel.Mendyke@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #749

	>The engimas:
	>
	...
	>Was Lucan "in on the plot"? Was the Type TJ that arrived and
snarled up traffic 
	>on 212 carrying the real Strephon from the Longbow project? If it
was then it 
	>had to have left before Dulinor's gig exploded. When Admiral
Hutara's 
	...

	What is (or was) project Longbow?  If Strephon
	was present in person it must have been something
	very big and interesting.  Where is it mentioned
	in cannon?

	Daniel


	

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:20:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

In mail you write:

>>No, you forget that pressure works out to energy per *volume*. So you
>>get closer to r^3 than r^2. Check out tables of blast effects for
>>nukes or other large explosions. First approximation is inverse cube.
>>
>>In fact the standard crater diameter formula uses 1/r^3.4!

> When I hear the word inverse cubed I reach for my Rheinmetall.
>
> Well, I have a book on weapon design (non gamerelated, the real thing) and
> in it I've found a formula for pressure being proportional to inverse
> square of range. They also mention that it is pressure that does the
> destruction.
>
> The reason crater diameters are roughly prop to 1/r^3 is that explosive
> energy is more or less prop to the mass of matter blown away. That is not
> the acse for a travelling wave in water or air.

Alas, if you check the tables in books like "The Effects of Nuclear
Weapons" you'll find that *all* the blast effects that depend on
"overpressure" are inverse cube.

The inverse square ones are the radiation (nuclear and thermal) effects.

And since these tables were generated from actual tests, it looks like
there's a problem with your reference.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:27:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 1. Underwater combat ; 2. 'Fast berthing' ; 3. Fuel purification plants ; 4. Tweaking FF&S

In mail you write:

> I've just managed to catch up with the accumulated mail.
>
> 1. The correspondence generated by "Mark Seemann" 's initial query
> was interesting.  In the TNE rules, energy weapons are described as
> having a 'pilot laser' which ionises the air to form a conduit for
> the plasma bolt.
> Why couldn't a similar device (appropriate wavelength laser or
> sonics) be used underwater, avoiding the messy steam explosion
> problem ?

Because "ionizing" water *is* converting it to steam *plus* adding even
more energy. 

It's an insoluble problem. Water *isn't* "transparent" enough to
transmit the required energy densities without absorbing major amounts
of the energy. And absorbing that kind of energy converts the water to
*at least* steam, if not actual plasma, with the resulting explosion.

Heck, "ionizing" a path thru the air is creating a low-grade "linear
explosion". It's just that the volume difference between air and
ionized air (plasma) is fairly small. The difference between liquid
water and steam is a lot bigger and nastier.

> The same trick could be used to fire missiles through the water at
> transonic (?) velocities

Except that the trick doesn't work at all. 

Consider the fact that to open this "passage" you have to exert enough
outwards pressure to keep out the water. That's going to create an
overpressure wave, which will cause the *same* effects as an explosion!

Remember, a measly 30 feet down the pressure if 15 psi *above* whatever
atmospheric pressure is. A 15 psi overpresuure wave will turn
reinforced concrete to gravel!

> Other possibilities include taser type weapons fired like conventional
> spear guns (elastic/compressed gas)

You'll have a major problem with current leakage thru the water. Also,
anything capable of much range will tend to do *severe* damage at
closer ranges. 

> 2. Using fast drug to act as a no-frills 'passage adjuvant' would be
> interesting, to say the least. The ship's medic would have to turn the
> passengers several times a day to prevent the formation of pressure
> sores. (Inferring from my experience of patients with spinal cord
> lesions).

So you reduce the gravity in the berths. :-)

> 3. Fuel purification plants - enigmatic little black boxes, aren't they?
>
> Each cubic metre of gizmo burns from 5 to 10 kW per six hours per cubic
> metre of 'fuel processed' , according to FF&S 4.1.
> I would have thought one of the most efficient ways of sorting gas giant
> scrapings or water, or whatever, would be to plasma torch it and use
> mass spectrometry (different ionised species move differently in
> electric and/or magnetic field).

Not necessarily the most efficient. That's probably an "easy" method,
but it does require heating, cooling, and those magnetic fields for
sorting. 

For *cheap* you electrolyze water. For the gas giant stuff:
1. 
  Input: H2, He, CH4, H2O, NH3
  Process: filter thru pertmeable membranes
  Output: H2 to tanks
          He discarded
          CH4, H2O, NH3 to step 2
2.
  Input: CH4, H2O, NH3
  Process: cool & condense
  Output: H2O to step 3
          CH4, NH3 to step 4

3.
  Input: H2O
  Process: electrolysis
  Output: H2 to tanks
          O2 to step 4
4.
  Input: O2, CH4, NH3
  Process: oxidation (combustion *or* fuel cell)
  Output: H2O to step 3
          N2 discard
          CO2 to step 5

5. 
  Input: CO2, possibly H2 from tanks
  Process: "cracking"
  Output: C discard [1]
          O2 to step 4
          H2O to step 3

[1] depending on various factors this carbon could be soot, graphite,
or even diamond. I expect that the process would be set up to produce
graphite or diamond as soot is too much of a pain to clean out.

Alternatively, you can send the CH4 thru a step using chlorine to turn
it to CCl4 and HCl. The CCL4 is easily decomposed into carbon and CL2,
and the HCl can be thermally cracked or electrolyzed. But this requires
large amounts of chlorine on board.

> What do you do with your 'waste' gasses - or do you crack ammonia and
> methane down to nitrogen and carbon dioxide respectively via a plasma
> torch first, and vent what you can't use (although ammonia and methane
> might be useful for the ship's extended life support system..) ?

See above. Ammonia converts to water and nitrogen with the helkp of a
bit of (recyclable) oxygen. Methane converts to water and carbon
dioxide the same way. 

> i. Fusion - as published, efficiency is substantially less than one
> percent.
> Assuming 0.5% mass conversion per fusion, one litre of liquid hydrogen
> is required to generate a megawatt-year (albeit at 100% efficiency).
> High-temperature superconductors should be around by TL9 or 10 ; 10%
> efficiency should be easy to achieve (doesn't zero electrical resistance
> imply almost perfect heat transmission, within the limit of the Second
> Law of Thermodynamics?)

Nope. Superconductors especially ones that operate at "high" temps,
tend to be *lousy* thermal conductors.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

David Smart <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> writes:

> I've been thinking about the nature of firearms in Traveller and
> thought of 4 questions I'm unable to answer (I'm not that familiar
> with real-life firearms). I'd appreciate any help. My questions are:
> 
> 1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
> rounds or just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?
> 
> 2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the barrel
> help or hurt such a weapon?
> 
> 3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
> cooking off?
> 
> 4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces are
> using such a round.)

and Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> replies:

>  1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
>  rounds or just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?
> 
> *** Rifling the barrel requires that the barrel be heavier; instead,
> the slug is rifled so it spins. Most slugs are rifled by default.

Very true.  Also, by rifling the barrel of a shotgun, you destroy it's
ability to project an even pattern of shot any useful distance.

>  2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the
> barrel help or hurt such a weapon?
> 
> *** Most of the heat produced by a rifle comes not from the chemical
> energy but instead from the friction between the bullet and the barrel.

Hmmm.  IIRC, it's more like half and half, but the answer is still right.
A frictionless barrel *would* help.

>  3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
> cooking off?
> 
> *** This is often judged by "how many rounds have been fired in the immediate
> past" and how long the unfired cartridge now sits in the hot chamber.
> 
> Estimate: 200 to 300 rounds in the last couple minutes. Cook-off in 30
> seconds.

Nope.  If this were true, most full-auto weapons will cook off in battle.
(I own several machine guns, including a belt-fed, and have run several
hundred rounds in that short a period on numerous occasions with no ill
effects.) The actual temperature (ala boxed ammo caught in a residential
fire) at which rounds will begin to cook off, according to the local fire
dept., starts at around 500 degrees.

>  4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces are
> using such a round.)
> 
> *** Yes. Its a major problem with caseless.

Actually, while caseless ammo is more likely to ignite, it is less
likely to do any damage since, unlike modern cased ammo, the deflagration
(not detonation) is not contained by a case.  These tend to go off like
little tiny grenades when they burn (although modern firefighting turn-
out gear will typically stop the shrapnel.)

Hope this helps.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:39:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #749

Daniel Mendyke wrote:

>         >Was Lucan "in on the plot"? Was the Type TJ that arrived and
> snarled up traffic
>         >on 212 carrying the real Strephon from the Longbow project? If it
> was then it
>         >had to have left before Dulinor's gig exploded. When Admiral
> Hutara's
>         ...
> 
>         What is (or was) project Longbow?  If Strephon
>         was present in person it must have been something
>         very big and interesting.  Where is it mentioned
>         in cannon?

I believe it was explained in 'Arrival Vengeance'. Since I don't have
that one..I can't rightly say. It is mentioned but not explained in
'Survival Margin'

It might also be in the Regency Sourcebook.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:02:27 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Apology for Quote Not Needed

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se>
Subject: Re: Apology for Quote Not Needed


>>   Protecting everyone's liberty IS necessary if you are to keep your own.
>>But, while not required, it would be nice if those that do the protecting
>>occasionally heard a "Thank You." Either way, they'll still understand and
>>follow their duty to "stand the wall."
>>     J. LaRosee, USAF, Capt., Ret.
>
>Gee, aren't you guys paid to work and entered the service with open eyes.
>
>/Anders Backman
>
Gee golly Anders, why don't you ask my wife that question.  Her response
would go something like; why are you working for less than half of what you
could make on the "outside" or why don't you get a job that you only work 40
hours a week like a normal person; or do we really have to be separated for
two years just because I want to stay here and finish my degree....Maybe she
would throw up the fact that I seem to have left bits and pieces of myself
on three continents or possibly where was I when my daughter was 1 - 5 years
old.  If you think about it, then the answer is too obscure to just say we
went into it with our eyes open and just to receive a pay check.  Its a shit
load more than that.

Have you ever served in the ARMED FORCES? (Think about those two words for
just a minute.)  No matter what country you live in there is something to be
said for the person that decides to make a commitment like that.  A
commitment to put your life and limb on the line for the beliefs that you
have.  Right or wrong, to serve without being forced (drafted) is making a
hell of statement to the rest of the world.

Never mind, this is probably all wasted typing based on the wording of your
comment.  I'll save myself for something that is more deserving of a
response.

<Soap box mode off.>

Thom Harris
Chief Warrant Officer
U.S. Army (Ret.)
1969 - 1989

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:26:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> wrote:

>This is the order that the TNS dispatches are on the page:
SNIP

>Now, you are right.  I can easily figure this out (and did) and set the
>timeline straight.  I've also been playing Traveller since 1977.  I'm also
>very familiar with the storyline and the layout of TNS messages.  I strongly
>recommend that the TNS be laid out in either forward or reverse order
>(reverse would probably be best), and that they be consistant.
>
>For someone who is not familiar with the TNS layout, who is reading this as
>new, it could be very distracting.

They aren't the dates that the message arrives at a location - for example,
Regina? So some messages would arrive out of sync?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:40:58 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cook wrote:

> >  2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the
> > barrel help or hurt such a weapon?
> > 
> > *** Most of the heat produced by a rifle comes not from the chemical
> > energy but instead from the friction between the bullet and the barrel.
> 
> Hmmm.  IIRC, it's more like half and half, but the answer is still right.
> A frictionless barrel *would* help.

Definitely NOT.  Unless we are only talking about shotguns firing shot (I
see the word "rifle" mentioned above), a frictionless barrel cannot impart
any spin on the projectile, meaning that your accuracy is all shot to hell
(pardon the pun).  Fin-stabilized discarding sabot rounds would be
mandatory if a frictionless barrel were used on any conventional firearm
besides a shotgun.





James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:47:34 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

>
>They aren't the dates that the message arrives at a location - for example,
>Regina? So some messages would arrive out of sync?
>
>Dom


I believe that the date/UPP represents when and where that specific report
was generated.

The messages I am referring to are not the 'this just in...' messages, but
rather the archive that you can review the various story threads.  I would
(and do) expect those to be in some sort of order (chronologically has
always been the standard.)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:20 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

At 10:30 19/08/98 -0500, David Smart wrote:
>I've been thinking about the nature of firearms in Traveller and thought of
>4 questions
>I'm unable to answer (I'm not that familiar with real-life firearms). I'd
>appreciate any
>help. My questions are:
>
>1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
>rounds or
>just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?

It may improve accuracy somewhat, though most modern slugs are designed in
such a way that they spin anyway, or use a sort of 'fin stabilisation'.
Rifling won't cause damage when shot is fired, but the pattern will spread
far to quickly, thus making shot useless when fired from that weapon.

>2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the barrel
>help or hurt such a weapon?

My guess is that no modern firearm would work proberly if their barrels
were frictionless, because the bullet would leave the barrel before a
decent pressure built up behind it. However a weapon designed for a
frictionless barrel might work OK, until something damaged the surface.

>3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
>cooking off?

A few hundred degrees Celsius IIRC, though this depends on how long they
are exposed to the heat, as it has to penetrate the shell casing.

>4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces are
>using
>such a round.)

Only at very high temperatures, because they are made from a stabilised
high explosive with a very high cook-off temperature. Normal propellants
cook off far too easily in caseless designs, because a caseless weapon
heats up faster because normally the empty case takes a lot of heat with it
when it is ejected. 

BTW the German Army isn't using the fine G11 caseless assault rifle, as the
then West German government decided to use the funds earmarked for buying
them to bolster the reunified economy instead. This was diredctly
responsible for H&K's purchase by Royal Ordinance.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:07:15 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)

The entire post that follows is IMHO (In My Humble Opinion).

I do not intend to flame anyone with this post, merely to tell people what
I think of this matter. Please do not take offence. If you do, respond by
private e-mail. Thanks.

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Thom Harris wrote:

> Have you ever served in the ARMED FORCES? (Think about those two words for
> just a minute.)  No matter what country you live in there is something to be
> said for the person that decides to make a commitment like that.  A
> commitment to put your life and limb on the line for the beliefs that you
> have.  Right or wrong, to serve without being forced (drafted) is making a
> hell of statement to the rest of the world.

I would say that a far more healthy statement is made by a person choosing
not to serve in the armed forces. True, armed forces were neccessary a
while ago, but times have changed in the US and in most of Europe (unless
you live in former Yugoslavia).

I choose not to serve in any armed forces of any kind, and I am proud of
it. I do not think that risking your own life is a good way to fight for
your ideals, since there are many other, more peaceful ways of doing so.

> Never mind, this is probably all wasted typing based on the wording of your
> comment.  I'll save myself for something that is more deserving of a
> response.

Ah, well. Sorry if I fill up your mailboxes. I just wanted to get this out
of my system.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:17:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:21:55 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

> That it's a bit of TNS-Speak, a computer code, something like that. The
> truly paranoid among them would think it's some sort of secret code, and
> labor mightily to decipher it.
>
> <fnord>
> it _is_ a secret code, of course...hidden in honored Templar
> tradition...in plain sight. What do you think UPC codes _are_
> anyway...you don't _really_ think they're just an inventory tag...do
> you?
> </fnord>


Except that is it _not_ a secret code.  Therefore we ask that anyone who 
is thinking of trying to decipher to please call 1-800-12F-NORD and 
cooperate with the friendly men in black suits who will show up at 
your door.


[Note: there is also no truth to the rumour that UWP's were dropped 
because we have found new, more subtle, ways of encoding secret 
messages.]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:22:19 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #743

At 11:01 PM 8/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Or one of mine -
>Olie "bastard" North = Nathan Jessup
>
>16 years time in service... and that scuzball make me regret each one each
>time I see pix of him in his marine uniform...

	Ah yes, forgot about him ... at least Jessup had the "excuse" of mental
instability AND being only a fictional character. Far less disturbing than
the real thing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:34:25 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

At 05:02 PM 8/18/98 EDT, you wrote:
>school again -- it'll be great.  I'm really looking forward to being one of
>those academic-account creeps who floods the internet every fall.  What fun!

	At least PLEASE don't be one of those academic-account creeps who
uncritically accepts every doomsday virus hoax as gospel and forwards them
to all the mailing lists ... although (for those who are keeping track) the
Good Times Virus is now technically feasible thanks to Moronsoft. Users of
Outlook98 under Windows98, beware.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:59:29 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Underwater combat

At 02:27 PM 8/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>        Or there are some interesting programs out there. I got my hands on
>>one at my last job, that was even unclassified! They were just gonna
>>throw it out.  Also, the High Energy Weapons Archive has some
>>fascinating stuff, including spreadsheets for the truly gearheaded
>>and/or interested ...
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>>
>
>URLs URLs URLS
>Calling somebody "truly gearheaded", is that a compliment or an insult?

	Unfortunately, I'm away from home. However, if somebody remembers the
Federation of American Scientists (FAS) URL, it's a subsection of that
site. I *believe* it's www.fas.org for the main page; the HEW Archive is
somewhere under that. Interesting to discover that the production of the
Navy's Trident warheads was shut down by an FBI raid on the DOE weapons
plant ...

	"Truly gearheaded" is of course a high compliment.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 20:48:44 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

On 08/19/98 at 09:08 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>I wonder (given the "no UPP's in GURPS" attitude recently taken) what
>GURPS-only players will make of the UPPs at the start of each entry?

Shhhh! Don't tell 'em, or they'll take them out.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:22:27 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: K & R industry, Mercenaries

(Modified from Word Watch, from _The Atlantic Monthly_, August 1998)

K & R industry, noun
the growing number of personal-security companies that offer so-called
kidnap-and-ransom insurance -- costly policies that, in the event of a
kidnapping, provide ransom money and the services of a professional
negotiator -- to high-risk clients, such as out-of-subsector CEOs and
bankers, famous people, and the super-rich....

BACKGROUND: Most K&R professionals were once Imperial covert operatives,
MoJ field agents, or Special Investigation personnel.  They are typically
pitted against professional kidnapping squads made up of ex-mercenaries,
criminal syndicates, or anti-Imperial agitators.  Given this combination, it
is hardly suprising that the lingo of K&R is a blend of military jargon,
street slang, and bureaucratees: K&R _operatives_ on assignment are on
_deployment_.
On occasion they deal with _fast-food kidnappings_ -- ones inolving
relatively
low ransoms, of perhaps Cr 30,000 to Cr 60,000, and rapid negotiations.

Although K&R _companies_ offer little in the way of preventive services
(that being a mercenary or Imperial concern), some clients, in addition to
paying annual K&R _premiums_ ranging from Cr 10,000 to upwards of  Cr
150,000, buy _vaccinations_ directly from potential kidnappers: in Ian
subsector (Corridor), for example, a
Cr 60,000 vaccination is said to protect against a Cr 500,000 kidnapping.
(For their part, kidnappers follow the _Preserve the Porcelain Rule_, the
aim being to keep the victim alive.)

*************************

There are a number of cultural factor's that I hope will be addressed
in the (eventual) mercenaries book.  Among them:
   - Powerful independent groups (ie "Hammer's Slamer's" style)
   - paraImperial merc's, which act in a pro-Imperial fashion
     without actually carrying the Imperial StarBurst before them
   - baby mercenaries, effectively ghetto-boy's with gauss rifles
     (still trying to make the down payment for a TL C battlesuit)
   - Corporate mercenary groups: MegaCorp, major corp, and minor corp
   - Mercenaries, national armies, colonial troops, noble Regiments,
     Imperial Guards, and Imperial Marines - who look's out for whom? Who
are
     natural enemies?  And who is the Best of the Best - in equipment?
     In professionalism?
  - The Imperial Laws of War - what can be done, what can't, and what
     are the grey area's?
  -  Mercenaries and Hortalez et Cie, the megacorp banker: mercenary
     bond's and financing
  -  StarMerc's, Pirate's, and the Imperial Navy

This isn't all: but other's are more knowledgable about strictly military
concerns...

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #750
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 751



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)
Re: New GURPS TNS
Blue Zones?
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #749
Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: G:T TNS Fnord
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Military Service et al (a call for calm)
Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...
Possible topic for trav-chat
Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!
Possible subject for trav-chat
Re: K & R industry, Mercenaries
FW: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:40:30 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)

Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:
> 
> The entire post that follows is IMHO (In My Humble Opinion).
> 
> I do not intend to flame anyone with this post, merely to tell people what
> I think of this matter. Please do not take offence. If you do, respond by
> private e-mail. Thanks.

Sorry, Jens. If you wanted the matter in private email, you should have
responded to Thom in private email. Putting your own opinions up in a
public forum and then asking that other people please not refute them
publicly is somewhat... underconfident.

> I choose not to serve in any armed forces of any kind, and I am proud of
> it. I do not think that risking your own life is a good way to fight for
> your ideals, since there are many other, more peaceful ways of doing so.

I would be very interested in your examples of "more peaceful ways" to
fight for your ideals. I would be particularly interested in which ones
would be effective in the face of an advancing invasion force. I would
also be most fascinated with your theories as to why a foreign power
would choose not to attempt to take away your nation's resources if your
nation had no means with which to defend those resources.

If your answer is 'fear of condemnation by the world community,' I ask
you to say why there is any reason for a nation to fear the condemnation
of others under those circumstances. 'Economic sanctions' hold no threat
to a nation which may simply advance across the next border to seize
what it wishes to.

I ask respectfully that you try, just try, to picture a world in which
everyone in your nation made the same choice as you -- not to serve in
the armed forces -- and in which no other nation took up the mantle to
defend your nation in their absence.

How long would you remain a soverign nation? How long until another
power decided to make your territory and resorces part of their own?

I also have chosen not to volunteer for my nation's armed forces. But I
do respect and appreciate the sacrifice that my countrymen make when
they volunteer to give up part of their freedom in order to defend mine. 

Making political statements, writing treaties, and forging economic ties
are all vital to improving relations between the nations of the world,
and these functions are not served by the military. However, it is the
military which ensures the peace under which those activities may occur.

> Ah, well. Sorry if I fill up your mailboxes. I just wanted to get this out
> of my system.

Likewise, and to the rest of the list:  I fully recognise the fact that
this matter is off topic, however it was simply not possible for me to
allow these comments to go unrefuted. I hope that I have spoken for many
and that we can now put this matter to rest.

Thank you for your kind indulgence,

Ben

PS: Jens, since we have both had our say now, I do hope you will choose
to reply to my message privately. I am truly interested in the reasoning
behind your views.

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:44:59 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

>Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 20:48:44 -0500
>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
>Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS
>On 08/19/98 at 09:08 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:
>>I wonder (given the "no UPP's in GURPS" attitude recently taken) what
>>GURPS-only players will make of the UPPs at the start of each entry?
>Shhhh! Don't tell 'em, or they'll take them out.

Lorean, please don't take out the UWP's from the TNS news bytes!
They add colour, perk's the curiosity of the neophytes, and it's
the Imperial Thing to Do.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:46:05 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Blue Zones?

What are the Blue Zones in the New Era map's ? (Galactic 2.4)

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:01:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

At 10:30 19/08/98 -0500, David Smart wrote:
>1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
>rounds or
>just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?

There is name for a shotgun with a rifled barrel, it is called a
"rifle".  If you rifle the barrel of a shotgun it isn't a shotgun
any more....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:50:52 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #749

Daniel Mendyke wrote:

>         What is (or was) project Longbow?  If Strephon
>         was present in person it must have been something
>         very big and interesting.  Where is it mentioned
>         in cannon?

>From RSB:        Project Longbow - LONG Baseline Observation Window -
the name for a system created in the 800's for observation of the
galactic core and the Zhodani axis of operation toward the core.
  (see also FF&S page 50 re application of aperature synthesis). 

Jim C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:18:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!

>From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
...
>Mr. Hudson -- what's all this about "ANOTHER imposter"??? Eh?  Have some very,
>very naughty little boys and girls and -- er -- other comrades -- been
>impersonating us, I mean me?  Tsk tsk tsk.  I'm afraid the impending release
>of _Sayat: The New Era_ will have to resolve the matter.

  Well, I was sort of referring to my suspicion of an attempt to impersonate
Mr. Prior; specifically my current theory that his identity is merely a ruse
by which his laptop arranges for additional upgrades to be purchased - even
proto-Virus can be a cunning thing.

  I'm still not sure about you, "Kenji", or at least so far I haven't seen
anything to genuinely arouse concern for the moral health of the TML...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:18:42 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:20 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 10:30 19/08/98 -0500, David Smart wrote:
> 
> >1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
> >rounds or
> >just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?
> 
> It may improve accuracy somewhat, though most modern slugs are designed in
> such a way that they spin anyway, or use a sort of 'fin stabilisation'.
> Rifling won't cause damage when shot is fired, but the pattern will spread
> far to quickly, thus making shot useless when fired from that weapon.

Actually, the steel rifling lands would distort lead shot, screwing with
it's aerodynamic properties (ie: small round bitz fly truer than small
chunky bitz).

> >2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the barrel
> >help or hurt such a weapon?
> 
> My guess is that no modern firearm would work proberly if their barrels
> were frictionless, because the bullet would leave the barrel before a
> decent pressure built up behind it. However a weapon designed for a
> frictionless barrel might work OK, until something damaged the surface.

Interesting.  I suppose that modern firearms due take barrel friction into
account when working out the pressure spikes upon ignition.  My guess is
that they would have to go the opposite way of TNE's ETC ammunition and use
a v-e-r-y quick burning propellent.

> BTW the German Army isn't using the fine G11 caseless assault rifle, as the
> then West German government decided to use the funds earmarked for buying
> them to bolster the reunified economy instead. This was diredctly
> responsible for H&K's purchase by Royal Ordinance.

Does this mean that the G11 design *hasn't* been abandoned?



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:13:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: G:T TNS Fnord

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: G:T TNS Fnord
>
>I love consipracy theories, and this all is just begging for one
...
>The engimas:
>
>Was Dulinor planning to assassinate Strephon? if so why not just arrest him
for 
>treason, was the Empire worried about the scandel, did they lack evidence to 
>be sure, was it Strephon's "gift" to a friend (an honourable death)? Why
was his 
>daughter appointed to succead him? Surely the Empire would not put the 
>daughter of a traitor in such a position. Why have the other "conspirators"
been 
>allowed to live? If you can alter their personalities why not alter
Dulinor's? Why 
...

  As a few wild guesses try:
  i) Yes.
 ii) Because - personal reasons (it's not original, but "everything is
personal")
iii) Relatively safe, and it defused suspicions?
 iv) Without Dulinor the other conspirators may only be dangerous if they
think that all their lives are forfeit (i.e., why not revolt anyway and
have a chance at success or an eventual amnesty?). However, Dulinor could
still function as a figurehead for his followers if he lived, and his
advisers could safely assume _that he would have wanted it that way_. Besides,
with his own INI (or other relevant agency) staffers on-side then his own
de- or re-programming might have been practical *.

  * I wonder how many times that can be done to someone? Shades of Paranoia
(or was it 1984?)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:25:36 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

> > Estimate: 200 to 300 rounds in the last couple minutes. Cook-off in 30
> > seconds.
> 
> Nope.  If this were true, most full-auto weapons will cook off in battle.
> (I own several machine guns, including a belt-fed, and have run several
> hundred rounds in that short a period on numerous occasions with no ill
> effects.) The actual temperature (ala boxed ammo caught in a residential
> fire) at which rounds will begin to cook off, according to the local fire
> dept., starts at around 500 degrees.

I'd agree, though Mr Cook is far more knowledgable than lil ol me.  : )  Not
two weeks ago at the range, I shot off 200 rounds of 7.62 in about 30 seconds
out of an M240.  That was both preceded and followed by 800 (in groups of
200).  That totals 1000 rounds in about 15 minutes and we weren't cooking off.
Though during one misfire (of many, grr), i was quite... startled (to put it
mildly) to see a round sitting in the chamber when i opened the cover
assembly.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:55:17 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!

Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Well, I was sort of referring to my suspicion of an attempt to impersonate
>Mr. Prior; specifically my current theory that his identity is merely a ruse
>by which his laptop arranges for additional upgrades to be purchased

What, more "gears without tears" apps?  Qewl! This is what makes NAFTA
worthwhile.  But I don't know anything about no upgrades.  Honest.

> - even
>proto-Virus can be a cunning thing.

[memo to self: save bad pun for STV uplift piece in Sayat:TNE]

>  I'm still not sure about you, "Kenji", or at least so far I haven't seen
>anything to genuinely arouse concern for the moral health of the TML...

I'm not worthy.  My own feverish attempts to degrade my own moral health this
summer have come to naught :(    Translating excerpts from _Macho Sluts_ into
Vilani hardly counts. 

Maybe I should volunteer for the Armed Forces of my nation.  After all, much
like pirates in the Third Imperium, volunteer soldiers pretty much all have
repressed homosexual tendencies; take the famous war hero Duke Norris, for
example.  

(Actually, I've noticed canonical evidence that Norris only rose to prominence
through the use of recovered TL-H Rule of Man technology.  That, and half-
dice.)

Yr. obt. svt.,
- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:37:03 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

At 05:18 20/08/98 GMT, James Lindsay wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:20 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> BTW the German Army isn't using the fine G11 caseless assault rifle, as the
>> then West German government decided to use the funds earmarked for buying
>> them to bolster the reunified economy instead. This was diredctly
>> responsible for H&K's purchase by Royal Ordinance.
>
>Does this mean that the G11 design *hasn't* been abandoned?

Well it turned up in a slightly modified form for the US Army's ACR
competition (which nobody won).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:05:55 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

OK folks... sorry for spamming the list with this, but the person who sent
his private reply to me did not use a valid address, so I cannot answer it
personally.

If you are that person, please reply in private the next time, and make
sure to include a working address, so we do not spam the list.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:55:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
To: Film@eleven.com
Cc: spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Black ICE wrote:

> I always find it amusing when a citizen of a free nation, such as the
> United States or Sweden, claims a moral superiority over those who, by
> volunteering to defend that nation, ensure that the first-named citizen
> can assert such superiority.

Well, I will get back to this later in my letter. First, I will answer
your statements, to show you what I mean.

> Do you honestly believe that the benevolent good-will of the Soviet
> Union was all that stood between Sweden and the fate suffered by Poland,
> Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.?

Yes, I do. Let me explain why.

There are two neutral European states, Sweden and Switzerland. We have
been neutral for quite a long time now. Even Hitler (a far worse enemy
than Soviet) respected the neutrality of Switzerland, a very rich but
poorly defended country on the German border. Sweden is not a rich
country, even less so when compared to Switzerland.

Also, attacking a neutral state is extremely bad publicity for any state.

> Do you believe that anything less than armed force would have removed
> the Iraqi Army from Kuwait?

No, and I agree with you here. Military force was needed to stop Saddam
(who I personally believe to be plain crazy). Also, the US military action
here was handled in a respectable fashion, with as little casualties as
possible.

Still, I would have preferred removing him peacefully, but that was not
possible.

> Do you believe that Hitler could have been stopped through peaceful
> means?

No, and I have nothing to say to defend my statement in this case. The
French resistance, and the D-day troops (US, Canada, Great Britain)
sacrificed themselves in a very brave way, and managed to succeed, despite
the odds. Many people have these heroes to thank for a lot.

There is one thing that the Allied forces (in this case led by the US) did
wrong during the cleaning of Europe. The Dresden bombings. Dresden was not
a military target, so many German civilians fled there from more
industrial cities. The Allied forced bombed the city beyond recognition,
in order to lower the morale of the Germans.

Boy, did they succeed.

> Those who claim that an unwillingness to serve in the forces that guard
> one's country, and one's way of life, is "far more healthy" than a
> willingness to fight, if necessary, to defend one's nation and way of
> life, must be careful.  After all, they may end up with the kind of
> military that they desire....

I meant the "far more healthy" in a very literal way when I wrote it. I
do not want to get wounded or killed, and I will do almost anything to
avoid it.

And yes, I would like the Swedish state to scrap the military forces
completely.

> Ask the Jews in Poland what life is like, when one's armed forces fail
> to defend one's nation.

See the comment on Hitler, above.

Now, let me make a few statements. First, I cannot and will not accept
what the US did to Japan at the end of the war. Japan was on the verge of
surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended in
any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
because of this.

Also, the US has a history stained by many other crimes against humanity.
The Vietnam war is a good example of this, and the crimes against the
native Americans (I know, that was a long time ago, but still) is another.

I must say that I do not respect the United States of America. Please do
not take that personally, but still that's my opinion.

As for Communism and other political stuff, I am myself far out in the
left field, and I am proud of it. I think it's a shame that the US only
shows one side of the coin, so to speak.

Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:50:10 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Military Service et al (a call for calm)

My but this subject can create some heat can't it. Okay hows about we all 
agree to disagree on this one, since I can't really find too many concections 
with Traveller (however if people want to discuss the standing of pacifists in the 
3I I'm game).

Jens has stated a belief he holds very deeply and honestly in a forum which is 
very likely to produce some strong hostile responses and few if any supportive 
ones. I for one have the greatest respect for that; it truely requires the deepest 
conviction. I also have respect for those who serve in the military in defence of 
what they believe. However please let us not lose sight of the fact that those 
who choose not to fight and not to remain silent in the face of agression and 
injustice also deserve the same respect. These people risk not only death; but 
life branded as cowards, traitors and worst sort of criminals for what they 
believe.

Andrew, who's uncle spent time in a quaint German town because he refused 
to stay silent 1944-45 and who thinks firefighters and police deserve respect 
too :*>

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:24:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...

In mail you write:

>>My take is ,to keep Exp Fusion at TL 8 and Fusion at TL 9. It means that
>>there's a viable option for interplanetry craft at TL 8 
>
> Why do we want interplanetary craft at TL8? TL8 is us, now, today. See
> any viable interplanetary craft?

That's a social/political problem more than a technical one. We've had
the technology for some time. And once past a certain point it would be
economical. It's just that nobody wants to do the "up front"
investments. 

If we were being visited by TL-12 aliens, and hearing about the
benefits they get from space resources, you can be damn sure the
investors would be shelling out money. And the governments would be
doing their damndest to get us out there so that we can claim the rest
of the system before some enterprising offworlders did.

> And anyway, you can build a viable interplanetary ship with NTR - it
> just takes a long time to get to its destination, which is fine. 
> Keep TL-8 clunky and interesting! No fusion rockets at TL8!

That's sort of true. 

But *my* viewpoint is based on the fact that if anyone had been willing
to, they could have built a V2 in 1910, and gotten to the moon with
40s/50s tech. And the Space Shuttle is only TL6! Thus:

TL5	crude liquid fueled rockets, access to orbital *altitude* (but
	no capability of actually orbiting objects)
TL6	good liquid fueled engines. orbital installations,
	interplanetary flight, crude solid nuclear rockets
TL7	good solid nuclear engines, regular orbital flights,
	interplanetary installations
TL8	regular interplanetary flights, start of interplanetary colonies?
TL9	colonies

I left out the other fission rockets, and other propulsion
technologies, as I'm not really sure how "hard" they are. But the above
is where *I* think the technologies should be. I don't have any recent
stuff that'd list current "official" rules on this.

But I am sure that liquid fueled engines are TL5, and by late TL6 they
are approaching the theoretical limits (Space Shuttle Main Engines).

Likewise NERVA was TL6, and I have little doubt that if it hadn't been
abandoned, it'd have been pushing the limits by the end of TL7. 

This *does* have interesting implications, in that a TL 5 planet *does*
have the capability of damaging a ship or satellite in low orbit.
Though the crew of the ship would have to be *grossly* negligent to let
their ship get hurt. And they can possibly build a "antipodal shuttle"
(the old Sanger design that skips off the atmosphere multiple times to
extend its sub-orbital range)

A TL6 planet would likely put a lot of effort into getting a reusable
ground to orbit craft and building a space station. It'd be a matter of
planetary pride to be able to meet the *next* ship(s) in orbit after
the first visit by an IISS ship.

For TL6 spacecraft and installations, steal from the 50s space stuff.
The old von Braun and Ley designs *are* workable, and ought to impress
the players. Especially the old wheel-type stations. Most 50s SF used
those designs a *lot*. 

I wish I had my old Lindberg Line model kits of those designs (the
first re-issue). I have the space station kit from the *second*
re-issue. And I'd also like to have the old Revell etc re-issues of 50s
designs (in the late 60s they re-issued a lot of 50s space kits under
new names). They'd be great starting points for designs.

TL7 stuff is pretty much a lot of designs that never got built. And TL8
is current designs (again, many of which aren't going to get built).

One interesting TL7 design is the British Interplanetary Society's
Daedalus probe. This is a design that while pushing the limits a bit
was designed to be built with 60s or 70s tech. And it's for a probe
that will make a one-way trip to Alpha Centauri. 

Just imagine the fun at traffic control in a "fringe" system when they
detect a probe coming at 5% of c (or is it 1%?) from the next system
over. And the fun back at the launch site when they get the images from
their probe.

Yes, I'd be nice and wait until *after* the data from the probe got
back before jumping in with the re-contact team. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Possible topic for trav-chat

With all this talk about the President and his love life, and the scandal
that follows, I was thinking what would happen in the 3rd Imperium if
something similar were to happen?  What if some weasle in the MoJ or INI
wanted to bring Cleon or Strephon down and discovered something
"interesting"?  How would the emperor handle the situation, how would the
moot react?  Or would it get back to the old assasination thing? Forex
Strephon would just vape the little weasel with his secret palace meson
gun? ;->

How about this one for GURPS-TNS Loren?

300-1116
"Aligations continue into the scandal that Strephon used 'imperial power'
to destroy Dulinors shuttle due to the fact that Strephon believed Dulinor
was having an 'inapropriate relationship' with the Empeoress"

It independant Cendant Counsel Ks leading the investigation.
;->

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 04:25:20 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!

Kenjomatic@aol.com wrote

[Conspiratorial Traveller note - what exactly is a kenjomatic, what does
it do automatically that the "real" Kenji had to do by hand?  Can this
question be answered on the list without the loss of our PG13 rating?]

> Mike Peters wrote:
> 
> >Hi Kenji, welcome back! Just where "back east" here are you going to 
> >school? I'd like to know just how deep to make the shelter ;>

> Well, shelters aren't going to help, I'm afraid.  I was looking at 
> FF&S the other day, and realized, hey! why couldn't you just put 
> thruster plates on a big old asteroid and aim it a planet? 

Wow, what a great idea, how come none of the rest of us ever thought of
this? :)

> Pretty qewl, huh?  I'm aiming mine at Boston, for the record.

I have friends in Boston, is their any chance of your please aiming it
somewhere else?  If the inherant accuracy of thruster plate equipted
asteroids is low maybe the spot it is aimed for is the safest place to
be.

> Mr. Hudson -- what's all this about "ANOTHER imposter"??? Eh?  Have 
> some very, very naughty little boys and girls and -- er -- other 
> comrades -- been impersonating us, I mean me?  Tsk tsk tsk.  I'm 
> afraid the impending release of _Sayat: The New Era_ will have to 
> resolve the matter.

I think that when Sayat: The New Era comes out and we see what the Sayat
are like in the New Era without the benefit of any large interstellar
states around them we are all going to long for those bygone days of
stability.

> "'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

A sig in Vilani with no translation or URL for a translation, do you
_want_ to drive us all crazy with curiosity or is that just a neat side
benefit?

Did you ever wonder why this Kenji person (?) writes about both the
Vilani _and_ the Sayat?  The unenlightened might suspect it was merely a
case of eclectic intereests or possibly a mere case of multiple
personality disorder but the truly enlightened will wonder about which
is the "cover" set of values (Vilani or Syat) & which is the "true" set
of values.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:30:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Possible subject for trav-chat

In my previous message, my little inside joke got messed up:

the 2nmd paragraph of th TNS entry should have read:
"Independant Counsel Ken Siirka is leading the investigation" :->
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:36:55 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: K & R industry, Mercenaries

>There are a number of cultural factor's that I hope will be addressed
>in the (eventual) mercenaries book.  Among them:

[snip]

Don't forget Insurance Policies; life and property.  Why do my players
always want to insure their mercenaries?!?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:49:18 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: FW: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

Jens, I think you need to study a bit more history...

Jens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 > Do you honestly believe that the benevolent good-will of the Soviet
> Union was all that stood between Sweden and the fate suffered by Poland,
> Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.?

Yes, I do. Let me explain why.

There are two neutral European states, Sweden and Switzerland. We have
been neutral for quite a long time now. Even Hitler (a far worse enemy
than Soviet) respected the neutrality of Switzerland, a very rich but
poorly defended country on the German border. Sweden is not a rich
country, even less so when compared to Switzerland.

Also, attacking a neutral state is extremely bad publicity for any state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. 
[Walter Smith]  
Switzerland was the only invasion Hitler called off. A plane carrying
a German officer went off course and crash-landed in Switzerland,
the officer was captured along with his documents detailing invasion
plans against Switzerland. 

The Swiss army executed very detailed defensive plans. Unless you
haven't noticed, Switzerland has the most defensible terrain in Europe.
Their entire male populace is also part of the military reserves
(and were mobilized). 

Switzerland wasn't left alone because Hitler was being nice.
Switzerland was left alone because the Swiss army would have
killed too many Germans. If Germany had been successful in taking
over Europe, Western Asia and Africa, Switzerland's days would
have been numbered.

Germany invaded a host of neutral nations during WWI and WWII.
They weren't stopped by any fear of world opinion.

Jen again: 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for Communism and other political stuff, I am myself far out in the
left field, and I am proud of it. I think it's a shame that the US only
shows one side of the coin, so to speak.

Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
[Walter Smith]  
Communism has a track record of murdering more people (by an
order of magnitude or so) than Hitler's people ever did. While
capitalism may bring out the worst in some people, Communism has
a history of taking the worst in people and making it state policy.

I'd  heard a French head of state say that it was normal for young adults
to idealize Communism, and normal for them to grow out of it.
Maybe America only supports "one side of the coin", but in a 
Communist state you could be shot for even mentioning that there
were two sides to the coin.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #751
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 752



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Random Thug Generator
Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
ARMED FORCES service...
Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases 
The Commander Decloaks!
Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)
Low tech interstellar probes and first contact
LoM
re: Fall Travel Planner
Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military , Service" on TML
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Rifling Shotguns
Re: FW: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Re: Military service
Re: Military Service et al (a call for calm)
re: Military Service

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1998 10:33 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Random Thug Generator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've made a first pass at a JavaScript proglet that randomly generates:

   1. Generic NPCs (more or less "thugs")
   2. Skeleton adventure hooks (to go with a Generic NPC of course)
   3. The contents of a random Ship's Locker

I would appreciate suggestions, especially for the adventure hook
generator -- it needs a lot of ideas.

http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Online/T4CharGen.html

Rob
eaglesto@nortel.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:25:22 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: trav-tech@qrc.com <trav-tech@qrc.com>
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...



>One interesting TL7 design is the British Interplanetary Society's
>Daedalus probe. This is a design that while pushing the limits a bit
>was designed to be built with 60s or 70s tech. And it's for a probe
>that will make a one-way trip to Alpha Centauri.
>
>Just imagine the fun at traffic control in a "fringe" system when they
>detect a probe coming at 5% of c (or is it 1%?) from the next system
>over. And the fun back at the launch site when they get the images from
>their probe.
>
>Yes, I'd be nice and wait until *after* the data from the probe got
>back before jumping in with the re-contact team.
>


Shadow,

Reading your posts made my (sometimes called warped) imagination kick in.
What type of systems WOULDN'T be among the first to explore in an expanding
3I? Say long range scans showed a system without a suitable GG (Question: Do
all GG's contain hydrogen bearing atmospheres?) and a dry planet, would the
IISS pass this system up on the first go through an area? Most ship designs
I've seen tend to run toward a single Jump (of whatever #) worth of fuel
storage. If there is a nice, fat, populated system nearby, with a couple of
GG, would they by-pass the less desirable real estate? How likely is it for
the IISS to specially fit out a ship to explore a system with no easily
recognizable signs of civilization? Would they even bother, until/unless
they recieved such a probe? And how long would that sytem sit, unvisited,
before the IISS did rigout a probe?

I'm thinking of something along the lines of Moties here. What factors would
cause a "pocket" in or around the 3I that would NOT be explored until much
later in Imperial history?

PS: I'm cc'ing this to the TML, since I think that's the more appropriate
place for this discussion, since it's not really technical.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:59:24 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

At 12:05 PM 8/20/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
               ^^^^^^^

Pretty much sums it up I think.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: ARMED FORCES service...

From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>

> Have you ever served in the ARMED FORCES? (Think about those two words
> for just a minute.)  No matter what country you live in there is
> something to be said for the person that decides to make a commitment
> like that.  A commitment to put your life and limb on the line for the
> beliefs that you have.  Right or wrong, to serve without being forced
> (drafted) is making a hell of statement to the rest of the world.
>     ...
> Thom Harris
> Chief Warrant Officer
> U.S. Army (Ret.)
> 1969 - 1989

Well said, Thom.  Could't have put it better myself.  Bravo!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:56:14 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Hello, citizens of the TML!

Comr^h^h^h^h Mr. Peter Newman wrote:

>[Conspiratorial Traveller note - what exactly is a kenjomatic, what does
>it do automatically that the "real" Kenji had to do by hand?  Can this
>question be answered on the list without the loss of our PG13 rating?]

Your instincts are good, Newman.  Suspiciously good.  Please report to your
nearest Templar lodge for... tea.  

The functionality originally behind the nickname given us^h^H me is perhaps
nearly covered by FF&S p.85: "torque hand" and/or "power arm".  Slick versions
- -- naturally.  More than this I cannot divulge.

>Wow, what a great idea, how come none of the rest of us ever thought of
>this? :)

Why?  This time, I'll forego spoofing my countrymen and sniffing about the
ills of pacifism ;)

>I have friends in Boston, is their any chance of your please aiming it
>somewhere else?  If the inherant accuracy of thruster plate equipted
>asteroids is low maybe the spot it is aimed for is the safest place to
>be.

That's why I have to go to Boston myself, in order to guide it in, and if I
screw up, to be safe from it.  It's a win/win situation!

>I think that when Sayat: The New Era comes out and we see what the Sayat
>are like in the New Era without the benefit of any large interstellar
>states around them we are all going to long for those bygone days of
>stability.

Oh, that'll be the least of it.  Let's not lose sight of the Sayats' long
obsession with overbearing computer widgets, and their strongly-felt need to
help primitive sophonts grow to share in the benefits of civilization.

Nor in their long interest in biomedicine.  Hence the threat of the STV
overrunning Known Space.  Who -- besides a Sayat, I mean -- would want to run
into sexually transmitted Virus?

>A sig in Vilani with no translation or URL for a translation, do you
>_want_ to drive us all crazy with curiosity or is that just a neat side
>benefit?

["drive crazy" -- interesting phrase.  Memo: new skill under Vechicle cascade]

It's the only surviving fragment of _Backstabbing Cowards_, a widely-marketed
serial holonovel from Makhidkarun, essentially anti-labor movement propaganda.
In each episode, the lonely archvillain Eneri comes one step closer to
completely destroying the entire Imperial economy with his fiendish plots,
only to be foiled by the good planning and liberal operational scope of
megacorporate security.  The text available to us apparently consists of Eneri
admonishing a younger inductee into the horrible plot: 

  "'Save your hatred for working families," Eneri advised grimly."

And WHY do we only have one fragment of this literature which should be a
WARNING to us all?  Because the COMMUNISTS, true to their traditional,
INHERENT LUST for the mass murder of CUTE LITTLE FUZZY THINGS, have suprressed
Makhidkarun'S RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH!  

Think about it!!

>Did you ever wonder why this Kenji person (?) writes about both the
>Vilani _and_ the Sayat?  The unenlightened might suspect it was merely a
>case of eclectic intereests or possibly a mere case of multiple
>personality disorder but the truly enlightened will wonder about which
>is the "cover" set of values (Vilani or Syat) & which is the "true" set
>of values.

They are all a unified whole.  Just like always.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:00:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Guantanamo and analogous Trav cases 

> Re: Guantanamo
>   BTW, when does the lease run out there? (I imagine that the IN is glad
> to rarely [if ever] have to deal with basing rights issues within the 3I)
> 
> >But, he is a classic example of siege mentality...after all, Gitmo has _got_
> >to be one of the flat-out no sh*t _weirdest_ places on the planet to be
> >stationed. A naval base in an actively _hostile_ country with which the bases
> >owner has no formal diplomatic relations. 
> >
> >ObTrav...You have to wonder how many Imperial enclaves have been like Gitmo
> >over the centuries, particularly during the rebellion...

Outpost in Reavers' Deep comes to mind.  It's about 5 parsecs out from the 
border in the middle of independent planets between the Carillians and the 
Caledonians.

Collin's World (Reavers' Deep 1631) also comes to mind.  Here's the blurb from 
the old PE list:

LIBRARY DATA: Collin's World (Reavers' Deep 1631).

This small airless world that was originally a reaver stronghold.  Later
turned legitimate and became an Imperial client state in return for letting
the Imperium maintain a base in the system.  Protected by Imperial ships and
given preferred trade status, Collin's World prospered and increased in
population to the point where the resources of the system was strained to
maintain it.

When the Imperial Navy pulled their ships out in 1119 it precipitated an
economic collapse.  By 1128 many of the habitats had failed in part or in
whole and nearly a hundred million people had died.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: The Commander Decloaks!

I have discovered that I can use unix to access my magicnet ISP from work,
plug into PINE and mail TML from there!  My post on the Imperial Scandals
was a test.  Success!  The commander is back!  And no hamster code either!
:)

Now for a shameless plug...

My site has been going some major changes.  One change is the inclusion of
Gearhead and Traveller ring connections.  the other is the release of
ships and weapons designed for G:T during the playtest.  Also I have come
accross my old TNE folder full of other gadgets and gismos for the TNE
era.  Also, having found an old copy of JTAS which has the HG updates HG
ships will also be available.

In short, I will create a MULTI-Denominational traveller site!

X-TEK is still around, a complete history year 0-1116 is available.  I
havent gotten around to a TNE history yet.

Planet X is now the "Infonet" of x-TEK.

Those URL's are:
Planet X -- http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/x.htm
X-TEK -- http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

Dont forget, they are also on the Traveller and Gearhead Webrings,
respectively.

This has been a corporate anouncement,
Thank you

End shameless plug

Feel's great to be back!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:07:51 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)

At 02:07 AM 8/20/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I would say that a far more healthy statement is made by a person choosing
>not to serve in the armed forces. True, armed forces were neccessary a
>while ago, but times have changed in the US and in most of Europe (unless
>you live in former Yugoslavia).

"I believe this means peace in our time."  -Nevelle Chamberlin,  Prime
Minister of Great Britain, 1938.  One year later the biggest war in history
erupted.  Note that WWII occurred twenty years after the "War to End All
Wars" ended.
- --

+------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+------------------------------------------+
| "or it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' | 
| "Chuck him out, the brute!"              |
| But it's "Saviour of 'is country"        |
| when the guns begin to shoot;"           |
+------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Low tech interstellar probes and first contact

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Just imagine the fun at traffic control in a "fringe" system when they
> detect a probe coming at 5% of c (or is it 1%?) from the next system
> over. And the fun back at the launch site when they get the images from
> their probe.
> 
> Yes, I'd be nice and wait until *after* the data from the probe got
> back before jumping in with the re-contact team. 

Larry Niven wrote a short story on this very theme, titled "Like Banquo's
Ghost."  In that one, though, the aliens aren't polite enough to wait.

I've never been quite happy with the recurring circumstance in canon Trav
history of bustling interstellar communities not knowing what's in systems
only a few parsecs away.  Simple caution and curiosity would dictate
sending a few scouts out to do recon.  I would guess that any moderate to
high population, B+ starport world will have pretty good intelligence on
anything within a few months' round-trip travel.  Doing basic surveys
costs relatively little, and can pay huge dividends if you discover a new
market, resource...or even enemy, before they discover *you*.  Even the
Vilani would be able to see the value in this, I think.  Hence the setup
for the Terran/Vilani contact has never made much sense to me.

There is a beautiful parallel in real Earth history, though.  Europeans
started sailing around the Carribean and along the coast of Mexico in
1492, and more and more ships and men were in the region with each passing
year, as forts and towns were established on the islands.  However, it was
nearly three decades later that 'first contact' with the Aztec empire
occurred, despite the two large, well-organized, and curious powers having
been within a few hundred miles of one another the entire time.  So maybe
I'm being too optimistic about exploration and curiosity driving early
contact.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:43:14 +0100
From: Rob Day <rob@glisten.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LoM

Hi.

Letter of Marque arrived here (UK) this morning.

:)
:)
:)

Regards,

Rob.
- -- 
Rob Day
rob@glisten.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:33:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Fall Travel Planner

Kaleem Witcher <features@internetwire.com> wrote:

>MSNBC Fall Travel Planner (http://www.msnbc.com/news/FALLTRAVEL_Front.asp)
>Travel Editor Robin Dalmas travels to New Mexico to report on a virtual
>hot-air balloon ride over the Albuquerque desert. Plus: Explore four Napa
>Valley Wineries, including one run by Francis Ford Coppola, through audio,
>video and surround videos. Use our Napa Valley Resource Kit to plan your
>trip for fall harvest time. Finally, meander through a lesser-known fall
>foliage drive through Rhode Island. And use MSNBC'S Travel Toolkit
>http://www.msnbc.com/Modules/Travel/toolkit.asp to book and buy your fall
>travel on Expedia.com, including air fares, auto rentals and
>accommodations.

Hi,

I am looking to take a vacation in the Rhylanor Star System sometime in the
next year. Do you have any information on the best carrier by which I can
book middle passage from Terra/Solomani Rim, hopefully stopping at
Sylea/Core and then following the old frontier routes through Corridor
sector to the Domain of Deneb. I believe Tukera Lines, LIC offers a
complete service, but I have always questioned their ethics. Perhaps you
could advise if one of the smaller lines such as Oberlindes would be better
value, and perhaps more morally sound? In addition, please advise which
insurance you would recommend as I am concerned about Vargr Pirates and the
ever present Zhodani threat.

Regards

Dom

PS The Traveller Mailing list is dedicated to the Traveller Science fiction
Roleplaying game - as a result, the only real travel offers likely to be
appreciated would be those involving space travel. Hope that helps, and
thank you for not spamming again.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:36:10 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military , Service" on TML

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Jens, I think you need to study a bit more history...

My answer here borders on a "me too", but if you want to buy him one, I
can chip in.

> Jens wrote:
> > > Do you honestly believe that the benevolent good-will of the Soviet
> > > Union was all that stood between Sweden and the fate suffered by
> > > Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.?
> 
> > Yes, I do. Let me explain why.
> 
> > There are two neutral European states, Sweden and Switzerland.

And before WWII, Norway was a neutral state too.

> > We have been neutral for quite a long time now. Even Hitler (a far
> > worse enemy than Soviet) respected the neutrality of Switzerland, a
> > very rich but poorly defended country on the German border. Sweden is
> > not a rich country, even less so when compared to Switzerland. 

Let's see: Norway, a neutral state, far poorer than Sweden at that time,
was invaded and held by German troops. Norway had a long, nice, ice-free
coastline and was thus important for the North-Atlantic theatre. Sweden on
the other hand was not invaded. First of all, Sweden hasn't the same
importance to the North-Atlantic theatre, secondly trains with
KZ-prisoners and German personell were allowed to pass through swedish
territory.  Sweden also kept up trading with Germany, so there simply was
no sufficiently good reason for attacking Sweden. They cooperated and did
not hold sufficiently important territories, why invade them? Respect for
the neutrality of a state had very little to do with it, I think.

> > Also, attacking a neutral state is extremely bad publicity for any
> > state.

Obviously didn't affect Hitler&Co when Operation Weserbung was
implemented. (The invasion of Norway.)

After WWII the Swedish armed forces has cooperated widely with NATO
forces, especially Norwegian ones, of course. (Isn't that a strict no-no
for a neutral state, co-operating with NATO, that is? :] ) The fact that
NATO, and I'm especially thinking of the American military presence, could
back up their words with military force had very much to do with Sweden
not being Hungary, I guess. (Not to be unfair to the Soviets: They marched
into Northern Norway towards the end of the war, we (the Norwegians) said
Thank you very much for chasing the Nazis, we would like you to withdraw
your troops now. The Soviets responded by withdrawal. The Russians were
very popular in Norway right after WWII.) 

> Switzerland wasn't left alone because Hitler was being nice.
> Switzerland was left alone because the Swiss army would have
> killed too many Germans. If Germany had been successful in taking
> over Europe, Western Asia and Africa, Switzerland's days would
> have been numbered.

And let's not forget all the German money in Swiss bank accounts. <Half a
smiley>

> Germany invaded a host of neutral nations during WWI and WWII.
> They weren't stopped by any fear of world opinion.

My point exactly.

> > As for Communism and other political stuff, I am myself far out in the
> > left field, and I am proud of it. I think it's a shame that the US
> > only shows one side of the coin, so to speak.
> 
> > Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist

And as for myself, neither as right-wing as mainstream American politics,
nor a communist, find it a pity that some communists have such a sadly
selective memory.

> Communism has a track record of murdering more people (by an
> order of magnitude or so) than Hitler's people ever did. While
> capitalism may bring out the worst in some people, Communism has
> a history of taking the worst in people and making it state policy.

A number listed in "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solshenitsyn is 66
million people dead in Russion prisoner camps, from 1917 to some time
after WWII. As for what the Asian communist regimes, China, Cambodia,
etc, have on their track records I can't site number off the top of my
head. The Nazi KZ-camps killed 8 million people, 6 millions of these Jews,
IIRC. 

> I'd  heard a French head of state say that it was normal for young adults
> to idealize Communism, and normal for them to grow out of it.
> Maybe America only supports "one side of the coin", but in a 
> Communist state you could be shot for even mentioning that there
> were two sides to the coin.

Well, the McCarthy Era and the Moscow processes can of course not be
compared, but it doesn't make it any better for the people who had their
lives destroyed in the States during the communist witch hunts. 

Steinar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:40:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Kenjomatic@aol.com wrote:

> ["drive crazy" -- interesting phrase.  Memo: new skill under Vechicle cascade]
> 

not to start up the whole 'driving in Bahston' thread again...but
Kenji...if you are indeed Kenji and going to boston...pick this one up.
Quick. You'll need it or TL-15 BD to survive traffic there.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:22:57 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Rifling Shotguns

It was said that:
> 
> *** Rifling the barrel requires that the barrel be heavier; instead,
> the slug is rifled so it spins. Most slugs are rifled by default.

>Very true.  Also, by rifling the barrel of a shotgun, you destroy it's
>ability to project an even pattern of shot any useful distance.

During the ACW, most kinds of artillery fired canister (like a big
shotshell) at close range if necessary. The really feared weapon was the
12-pound Napoleon (smoothbore cannon; somethat outdated at that time). The
10-pound rifled gun (eg Parrot) threw about as much shot, but where the
Napoleon made a big deadly cone with it, the rifled guns threw it in
unpredictable twisting patterns. Instances were recorded of canister being
flung up and over attacking troops at a fairly close range. That's pretty
bad news for the artillerymen, BTW.

By definition, wouldn't rifling a shotgun make it a 'rifle'? A poor one at
that. Better to keep shotguns as smoothbore shotguns (with special ammo for
unusual circumstances) and use a real, custom-designed rifle for rifle
work....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:59:30 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: FW: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Jens, I think you need to study a bit more history...
<snip interesting bit about history>

Yes, I guess so. I didn't know that. Still, se below.

> Communism has a track record of murdering more people (by an
> order of magnitude or so) than Hitler's people ever did. While
> capitalism may bring out the worst in some people, Communism has
> a history of taking the worst in people and making it state policy.

Your mistake here is that Soviet was not by definition a communist state -
it was a dictatorship. Communism only sounded good. The Nazi party in
Germany was a "worker's party" in the same way as Stalin was a communist.
I hate that man for dragging the good ideals of communism deep in the
dirt. To make things clear, I do not want a society like the old Soviet
Union.

> I'd  heard a French head of state say that it was normal for young adults
> to idealize Communism, and normal for them to grow out of it.

Not so in Sweden. I know many people of most ages who are communists and
socialists. The normal political view in Sweden is to the left.

> Maybe America only supports "one side of the coin", but in a 
> Communist state you could be shot for even mentioning that there
> were two sides to the coin.

No, but in a dictatorship you would. An important part of the communist
ideal is respect for other people's opinions.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:09:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Sanders wrote:

> At 12:05 PM 8/20/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>                ^^^^^^^
> Pretty much sums it up I think.

Sums up what? That I belong to a younger generation with other political
views than the Oldboys?

You need to understand that I live in a country where politics in the left
field are commonly accepted, unlike in the US. Both of your major (ie only
power-wielding) parties are to the right, even more so than the Swedish
rightmost party (of the large ones, at least). There are somewhere between
five and ten major political parties in Sweden, with quite varying
agendas. I think that is a very good thing, as it makes people see more
than one side of the story.

I will not discuss this topic further, unless you choose to take it to
private mail.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:17:53 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Military service

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> "I believe this means peace in our time."  -Nevelle Chamberlin,  Prime
> Minister of Great Britain, 1938.  One year later the biggest war in history
> erupted.  Note that WWII occurred twenty years after the "War to End All
> Wars" ended.

Sadly, history is full of mistakes like this. The situation might flare
up, and my country might be invaded. In that case, I will leave it behind
if I have to. I will not fight and die for my country.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:26:48 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Military Service et al (a call for calm)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> My but this subject can create some heat can't it. Okay hows about we all 
> agree to disagree on this one, since I can't really find too many concections 
> with Traveller (however if people want to discuss the standing of pacifists 
> in the 3I I'm game).

I agree. Let's take the entire discussion to private e-mail from now on.

<snip of respectful comment>

Thank you. It's nice that someone understands what I am trying to say. You
never tell if you agree or not, but that does not matter.

Side note: I am 20 years old and I study at a University here in Sweden.
Sanders made a post hinting that my views were explained by the fact that
I am a student. I forgot to make some facts about myself clear in my reply
to that post.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:46:09 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Military Service

Jens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sadly, history is full of mistakes like this. The situation might flare
up, and my country might be invaded. In that case, I will leave it behind
if I have to. I will not fight and die for my country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A soldier's intent isn't to die for his country, it's to make a bunch of
invading soldiers die for *their* country. <g>

Don't worry Jen, there are enough people around willing to protect you
that you'll not have to leave your nice, safe home. And since most
of them know what they do is important work, they'll not give too much
of a damn what you think of whether they ought to do it or not. Your
attitude will come around when you need them.

"Well it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and 'Throw 'im out the
brute!', but it's 'Special train for Atkins!' when the guns begin to shoot..."
                         - "Tommy", R. Kipling

<<Dismantles soap-box, uses bits for campfire, toasts marshmallows>>

OK, that wasn't nice. <Applies some Sayat Industries spray-on
heat shielding>

ObTrav: drat, there must be something I can mine out of this for
adventure ideas...oh, here we are:

Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
at times, depending on the local government type and the current
situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
same level as Desertion?

Local color bits: Peace party demonstrations outside Imperial
installations (scout bases, starports, other places players go) can
make a nice backdrop for other events. If the demonstrators get 
irritable, it can make common player activities a bit more interesting.
Riots in the streets are always welcome when you're trying to collect 
cargo and passengers...

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) 
?stls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #752
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 753



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fall Travel Planner 
Re: Military Service 
Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML
Re: Military service
Re: Military Service 
Re: World maps
Re: Military Service
[OT] The Morrow Project
Re: Uncontacted pockets (was Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet)
Military service, et al.
Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)
The Draft
Re: Jump route encoding
News from John Harshman
Re: LoM
[TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:10:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fall Travel Planner 

> I am looking to take a vacation in the Rhylanor Star System sometime in the
> next year. Do you have any information on the best carrier by which I can
> book middle passage from Terra/Solomani Rim, hopefully stopping at
> Sylea/Core and then following the old frontier routes through Corridor
> sector to the Domain of Deneb. I believe Tukera Lines, LIC offers a
> complete service, but I have always questioned their ethics. Perhaps you
> could advise if one of the smaller lines such as Oberlindes would be better
> value, and perhaps more morally sound? In addition, please advise which
> insurance you would recommend as I am concerned about Vargr Pirates and the
> ever present Zhodani threat.

Nobody in their right *minds* would want to go through Core.  What's wrong 
with going to Reavers' Deep instead?

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:29:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Military Service 

> Don't worry Jen, there are enough people around willing to protect you
> that you'll not have to leave your nice, safe home. And since most
> of them know what they do is important work, they'll not give too much
> of a damn what you think of whether they ought to do it or not. Your
> attitude will come around when you need them.

I was gonna keep my mouth shut, but I changed my mind.

Jens has the right to decide whether or not he choses to take up arms for his 
country.  A lot of jobs in a country don't require military service, however, 
this does *NOT* mean these jobs are unimportant.  I read *ZERO* condescendence 
in his posts toward military personnel; he merely stated it just wasn't for 
him.  So be it.  I can respect that.

FWIW, I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army, '68 through '72, and I almost went 
career.  I volunteered for it because I felt it was right for me to go.  So I 
did.
 
> "Well it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and 'Throw 'im out the
> brute!', but it's 'Special train for Atkins!' when the guns begin to shoot..."
>                          - "Tommy", R. Kipling

Been there, done that, & packed my uniform away when I got back to 'the 
world', at least when I was off-post.

> Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
> navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
> at times, depending on the local government type and the current
> situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
> half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
> might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
> be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
> same level as Desertion?

I don't see the 3I as drafting anyone for military service.  When you've got 
trillions of citizens around, it shouldn't be hard to find a couple billion 
people who want to sign up.  As for reassigning Imperial forces and bringing 
Colonial forces into the Imperial ranks, yeah, I can see this, but I consider 
them to have previously volunteered.

Drafts on a *local* level to fill the void left by colonial units getting 
Imperialised, *that* I can see in a heartbeat.  Imperial regs probably don't 
cover Colonial forces.

> Local color bits: Peace party demonstrations outside Imperial
> installations (scout bases, starports, other places players go) can
> make a nice backdrop for other events. If the demonstrators get 
> irritable, it can make common player activities a bit more interesting.
> Riots in the streets are always welcome when you're trying to collect 
> cargo and passengers...

*nod*

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:53:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML

> > > As for Communism and other political stuff, I am myself far out in the
> > > left field, and I am proud of it. I think it's a shame that the US
> > > only shows one side of the coin, so to speak.
> > 
> > > Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
> 
> And as for myself, neither as right-wing as mainstream American politics,
> nor a communist, find it a pity that some communists have such a sadly
> selective memory.

I'm a capitalist, plain and simple.  State socialism tends to foster the 
mediocre in that if you can't compete, the government steps in and forces the 
'other guys' to *let* you compete.  When your taxes keep getting higher and 
higher to pay for people who cannot or *will not* work, something is 
inherently wrong.  Pure classical capitalism says, level the playing field, 
and if you don't want to play on that field, go play in another game.  Let the 
market and the consumers decide.  Socialism says, we will *constantly* level 
the playing field so that nobody ever has a clear advantage.

FWIW, Sweden has some of the highest tax rates for personal income tax on the 
planet.  The upper middle class and the upper class tax rates are *killers*.

> > Communism has a track record of murdering more people (by an
> > order of magnitude or so) than Hitler's people ever did. While
> > capitalism may bring out the worst in some people, Communism has
> > a history of taking the worst in people and making it state policy.
> 
> A number listed in "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solshenitsyn is 66
> million people dead in Russion prisoner camps, from 1917 to some time
> after WWII. As for what the Asian communist regimes, China, Cambodia,
> etc, have on their track records I can't site number off the top of my
> head. The Nazi KZ-camps killed 8 million people, 6 millions of these Jews,
> IIRC. 

The final estimates for the Nazis was 11 million, of which 6 million were 
Jews, the rest Gypsies, trade unionists, Communists, Poles, and anybody else 
they were mad at.

The Khmer Rouge killed 3 million people from the time they took over in 1970 
until the Vietnamese ran them out in '74.  Cambodia had a pre-Pol Pot 
population estimated at 6 million.  Figures suggest that the Vietnamese killed 
more in the first 3 years of a total Communist government than the Americans 
and South Vietnamese killed throughout the entire war, from 1960ish until 
1975, when the US finally pulled out.  They estimate that 30 million died 
under Stalin during World War 2.

> > I'd  heard a French head of state say that it was normal for young adults
> > to idealize Communism, and normal for them to grow out of it.
> > Maybe America only supports "one side of the coin", but in a 
> > Communist state you could be shot for even mentioning that there
> > were two sides to the coin.
> 
> Well, the McCarthy Era and the Moscow processes can of course not be
> compared, but it doesn't make it any better for the people who had their
> lives destroyed in the States during the communist witch hunts. 

Or the people in the Soviet republics gulagged for loyalty to the old nobility 
after the October Revolution.  Except for the American Revolution, the *first* 
thing a revolutionary party does the instant it has control is to purge the 
party of the very people who can overthrow it.  Hitler did it to the Brown 
Shirts.  Lenin did it to the Bolsheviks.  The French did it to *everybody*.

ObTrav:

This kind of stuff even happened in the Third Imperium during the Rebellion.  
More than one planet was bombed back into the Stone Age by the various 
factions.  Almost makes you proud to be an Imperial citizen, doesn't it?

Keven


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:03:41 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Military service

At 09:17 PM 8/20/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> "I believe this means peace in our time."  -Nevelle Chamberlin,  Prime
>> Minister of Great Britain, 1938.  One year later the biggest war in history
>> erupted.  Note that WWII occurred twenty years after the "War to End All
>> Wars" ended.
>
>Sadly, history is full of mistakes like this. The situation might flare
>up, and my country might be invaded. In that case, I will leave it behind
>if I have to. I will not fight and die for my country.

Ouch, ouch, ouch! I just bit my tongue in two... ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:28:34 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Military Service 

Well, as the father of 2 serving Marines (US) and a vet, I just want to
throw out a couple of things.

Although Jens is not a citizen of my country, I and after me, my children,
have been and are willing to fight for his right, and anyones right, to
state his/her/it's views! I may not agree with those views, but it is his
right, in my opinion, to state them!

Secondly, concidering the news that is coming across the television as I
write this, I am making a serious plea that this incepiant flame war end
now! I am sure the news being broadcast will only serve to fan the fires,
and have little hope that the TML can or will continue to focus on the game
that brings us all together. Judging by past experience it will degenerate
into the usual by-annual flamewar. Concidering the worry I have with at
least one son in the area of activity I would really rather have the TML and
Traveller as a distraction, rather than adding to the aggrivation!

Sorry for the soap box, thanks for listening

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:47:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: World maps

Brian A. Howard wrote:

> Help, Help!
>
> Some kind soul sent me GIFs he had done of blank planetary map
> sheets. Unfortunately, I recently reformatted my hard-drive and
> these files were some of what was regrettably lost. Could this kind
> person please email me again? Much thanks.

   That was probably me.
I'm away from my main computer until Wednesday. I'll try to remember,
but emailing me again next week would be the best.

stevedaniels@portcaddo.com

BTW: I hope to have some new and improved ones available relatively
soon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:57:55 -0500
From: Madeleine Oldham <madalien@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Military Service

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Jens wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Sadly, history is full of mistakes like this. The situation might flare
> up, and my country might be invaded. In that case, I will leave it behind
> if I have to. I will not fight and die for my country.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A soldier's intent isn't to die for his country, it's to make a bunch of
> invading soldiers die for *their* country. <g>
> 
> Don't worry Jen, there are enough people around willing to protect you
> that you'll not have to leave your nice, safe home. And since most
> of them know what they do is important work, they'll not give too much
> of a damn what you think of whether they ought to do it or not. Your
> attitude will come around when you need them.

> Nice to see tolerance and open minds abound on the traveller list!
 - Chris
> "Well it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and 'Throw 'im out the
> brute!', but it's 'Special train for Atkins!' when the guns begin to shoot..."
>                          - "Tommy", R. Kipling
> 
> <<Dismantles soap-box, uses bits for campfire, toasts marshmallows>>
> 
> OK, that wasn't nice. <Applies some Sayat Industries spray-on
> heat shielding>
> 
> ObTrav: drat, there must be something I can mine out of this for
> adventure ideas...oh, here we are:
> 
> Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
> navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
> at times, depending on the local government type and the current
> situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
> half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
> might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
> be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
> same level as Desertion?
> 
> Local color bits: Peace party demonstrations outside Imperial
> installations (scout bases, starports, other places players go) can
> make a nice backdrop for other events. If the demonstrators get
> irritable, it can make common player activities a bit more interesting.
> Riots in the streets are always welcome when you're trying to collect
> cargo and passengers...
> 
> Walt Smith
> IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-)
> ?stls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:05:30 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] The Morrow Project

There was some discussion of the Morrow Project not too long ago.
Yesterday, I stumbled across virtually the whole product line at
[CENSORED].
I picked it all up.  IIRC, someone was looking for some information from

this game.  Perhaps about damage location?  Is that still true?

Regardless, I have two copies of the primary gamebook, GB-1, 3rd
edition,
that I'm willing to part with, preferably for trade.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:40:04 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Uncontacted pockets (was Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet)

>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:25:22 -0400
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...
>
>I'm thinking of something along the lines of Moties here. What factors would
>cause a "pocket" in or around the 3I that would NOT be explored until much
>later in Imperial history?
>

The Islands Clusters subsectors (New Islands/Reft, Old Islands/Reft) were
uncontacted by the Imperium until 980, although they lie between the
Spinward Marches and the Imperial core.  Even then, the initial contact was
an Imperial strike cruiser (Eldorado) that misjumped there due to battle
damage sustained in the Third Frontier War.  Based on Eldorado's report,
the IISS mounted a return mission in 1013.  The Clusters are separated from
the nearest outside systems by 7-8 pc.  [Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40-48]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:52:07 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Military service, et al.

First - well said Mr Boren. I agree completely.....


We've been over the Hiroshima/Dresden ground before, but....

True. The bombing of cities of full of innocents is morally 'wrong'. But it
happens. You know why? Because somebody wants to take your land and maybe
your wife or daughter and all your possessions. maybe your home and your
life too. They probably have their reasons, but you don't care. You want to
stop them. Force is the only way that works, and thus it begins.

(BTW: SADDAM is not insane. He just doesn't think like me or you.)

Violence has a way of escalating until either the horror grows so great
that it is unbearable, and someone breaks, or there is nothing left. So we
start with a 'clean' war - just volunteer soldiers being killed. Well, they
knew the risks when they signed up says public opinion. But pretty soon
someone decides that total war is the only way. Attack the means of
production, destroy civilian morale, that kind of thing. The whole thing
snowballs from there. It can't be controlled.

Why? Because I can't stop the other side from bombing my civilians - except
by surrender or victory. And if I won't do the decent thing and surrender,
what choice has the opposing side? They must go on, because they can't stop
me bombing their cities except by surrender or victory. 

I can't make the other side stop fighting unless I break their will. Their
actions are beyond my control. But   I have the lives of the people on MY
side to worry about, too. And I CAN do something for them. I can break the
will of the enemy - make him stop fighting. 

Conventional bombing of cities won't achieve that. (Tactical strikes by
light aircraft eg the Mosquito were far more effective than carpet-bombing
in WWII for the destruction of  enemy war-making capability - ie factories
and such. But public opinion in Britain demanded the heavy bombers -
vengeance incarnate, retribution for Coventry and London etc). Carpet
bombing didn't break anyone's morale, though it did tie manpower and
production down into anti-aircraft defences which didn't work all that well
but were necessary to keep morale up. Thus two largely ineffective weapons
in WWII cancelled one another out, pretty much. As a sideline, they killed
hundreds of thousands of civilians and thousands of airmen. But nothing
much was actually achieved. Just death and destruction.

Nuclear bombing might work.

Fact: The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people ON THE SAME NIGHT as the
first nuclear attack. Yet the nuclear bomb pretty much ended the war. Was
it right? Who cares? Throw away your conceptions of right and wrong and
think about this for a minute.

The war had to end. There were 2 ways - invade the Japanese homeland,
fanatically defended by Sleeping Dragon*, suicide aircraft and God knows
what else. The cost in American and Japanese lives would be immense. OR
drop the bomb.

A horrible choice, but the bomb option might raise the horror stakes to the
point where the Japanese would give in. Truman chose it. Maybe because he
couldn't get the other lot to stop fighting any other way, so he did that
to save the lives that were under his command - you could even say he had a
moral duty to do that. A duty to the men under his command, to preserve
their lives as best he could.

Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't a great solution. It
wasn't even a good one. But it WAS a solution. That was what was needed.
Truman grasped the nettle and did what seemed like the best option at the
time. 

Right or wrong? I don't know. Yes I do - wrong, but less so than fighting
on. Because you can't take responsibility for the people on the other side.
You look out for your own people, and if someone won't stop fighting you
then you finish it, for the good of the people you CAN do some good for. 

Altenratively, you surrender. Because that will be good for the people on
the other side. And JUST POSSIBLY your own. But history does not show this
to have been a very good bet at any time.

Debating the rights and wrongs of it all is pointless. Fact it, these
things happened. we'd be better to try to understand why, and make damn
sure it never happens again. THAT, I feel, would be 'right'.

War is a horrible thing. But since I can't control the actions and
intentions of others, and because in this flawed and dirty world we live in
you can't rely on the goodwill of others - world opinion and condemnation
mean nothing in the face of determined armed aggression - I am humbly and
profoundly glad that there are men and women willing to face danger to
protect me and my way of life.

I would rather my great-uncle, killed in a torpedo boat action in the
Channel (posthumous DSO IIRC), my grandfather, his health destroyed by
mortar bomb fragments at Dunkirk and my friend, badly injured by a
terrorist bomb in Northern Ireland - and all the others - had served out
their days in peace as an expensive national trophy and nothing more. 

Better, I would rather they had never had to serve at all.

But for them, and the others I don't know, I can only say that I am
profoundly glad that they and others like them were there when they were
needed. Sadly, they will be needed again. Until Humankind grows up and
stops this pointless conflict altogether - not any time soon, I fear - they
will be needed.

'For your Tomorrow
We gave our Today'

It will happen again. 

Unless we stop it.

MJD

(Neither a warmonger nor a pacifist, and not in any way political. Just in
the habit of looking at reality.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:32:05 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Military service (Was: Apology for Quote Not Needed)

At 09:07 20/08/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>"I believe this means peace in our time."  -Nevelle Chamberlin,  Prime
>Minister of Great Britain, 1938.  One year later the biggest war in history
>erupted.  Note that WWII occurred twenty years after the "War to End All
>Wars" ended.

Try telling that to the politicians and most of the population here. Even
most of those who don't feel like Chamberlin think that Australia makes a
wonderful buffer, and thus we don't need to spend anything. Grrrr.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:57:47 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: The Draft

Firstly, Mr Smith - that wasn't nice at all! Consider yourself soundly
finger-wagged.... I don't suppose there's enough left of your soapbox I
could borrow? No? Ah Well....

... the draft? Oh, right. Well, you can be drafted into the Navy -
character generation (any version) - so presumably the 3I navy isn't all
volunteer. Unless you assume that the draft is local colonial fleets &
COACC forces. 

My take on the Traveller draft is that citizens go through a sort of
clearing process at 18 or so. Those with jobs or universities to go to, or
who pay an 'admin fee' don't get selected. Of the rest, a proportion are
ignored (maily low-techers) to do whatever they can with their lives, the
rest get drafted into some service. This could be military service for the
Imperium (Scouts, Marines, Army, Navy), local forces (Colonial fleets,
COACC, planetary forces), or non-military service, eg Merchant Navy,
Administration, Labour Corps or som sort of humanitarian (sapientarian?)
aid programme.

That gives us a few adventure ideas - characters at 18 get drafted into
Imperial Projects, which turns out to be pushing paper or shovelling animal
droppings. (I had an uncle who, while on national service, volunteered for
PS Duty, trying to impress someone I guess. 'PS DUTY' turns out to be 'Pig
Shit Duty' - he spent several weeks cleaning out pig poo....) Characters
are offered an alternative - just fulfil this slightly dodgy mission and in
return we'll transfer you out of here....

Or draftees assigned to the 'Underpriviliged Children of the Imperium
OUtreach Project' - babysittinga whole mob of tearways at summer camp. Now
wouldn't that have you itching for a nice safe reactor faiure or Frontier
War????

If you like making your players squirm - how about getting them to deal
with protestors of the Greenham Common type - lunatics flinging themselves
in front of cruise missile transporters or climing into the silos. You
can't hurt them or the press will have you....

As an aside - ever wonder why the Greenham Common bunch got so het up about
a bunch of low-yield cruise missiles when there were 72 Zigglion Big Soviet
Missiles pointing the other way? It had something to do with all the money
the KGB paid to keep the protests going.....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:09:51 -0400
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Jump route encoding

Howdy!

Rolfe asked a while back (which I just read; two weeks of mail to grind
through):

>Hi there.
>
>
>I am wondering how the jump routes are encoded in the galactic sector
>files. (I'm using galactic 2.3, a great little program!)
>
>I have customized the jump routes to be very rare (essentially between
>close A & B starports only) but find that there are still too many, and
>some "important" worlds are skipped over.
>
>
>A sample is:
>
>$0209 0111 0 1
>
>obviously the first two fields are the hex numbers of the worlds, but what
>of the 0 and 1?  I have also seen -1 and 10 used.  What do they mean?
>
The 0 and 1 indicate that the second hex is 0 subsectors trailing/spinward
and 1 subsector rimward of the current subsector. An optional fifth number
indicates the color to display the jump route in.

yours,
Michael

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:16:41 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: News from John Harshman

A short note from John Harshman:

"Good news. A cranium of nearly modern aspect has been found in Africa,
dated at 270,000-300,000 years. Now the various Ancient-seeded humans can
be even more like us than we thought."

Thought you'd want to know...

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:27:11 +0100
From: "Harvester" <Harvester@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: LoM

>Hi.
>
>Letter of Marque arrived here (UK) this morning.

Damn, forgot to send a message about mine being here on Monday.

Big thanks to Paul.

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:06:53 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...

> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:25:22 -0400
> From: "Michael D. Peters"
> Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...
>
< original message fragment snipped >

> Shadow,
>
> Reading your posts made my (sometimes called warped) imagination kick in.
> What type of systems WOULDN'T be among the first to explore in an expanding
> 3I? Say long range scans showed a system without a suitable GG (Question: Do
> all GG's contain hydrogen bearing atmospheres?) and a dry planet, would the
> IISS pass this system up on the first go through an area? Most ship designs
> I've seen tend to run toward a single Jump (of whatever #) worth of fuel
> storage. If there is a nice, fat, populated system nearby, with a couple of
> GG, would they by-pass the less desirable real estate? How likely is it for
> the IISS to specially fit out a ship to explore a system with no easily
> recognizable signs of civilization? Would they even bother, until/unless
> they recieved such a probe? And how long would that sytem sit, unvisited,
> before the IISS did rigout a probe?
>
> I'm thinking of something along the lines of Moties here. What factors would
> cause a "pocket" in or around the 3I that would NOT be explored until much
> later in Imperial history?
>
All gas giants contain significant amounts of water, if our
understanding of planetary formation is correct. Hydrogen isn't a
problem. Getting at it may be, though.

It may be easier for the IISS to bypass 'unfavourable' systems, but is
there really such a thing ? Why couldn't you refuel in the system's Oort
cloud, for example - (a cometary halo is probably more likely to be
present than any planets). Travel time is longer, but surveying is (one
of) the Scout's primary mission(s).

Regrettably, response time is a function of bureaucracy and the distance
to the nearest C3I point. I'd suspect most IISS field commanders would
be very canny (pick your favourite fictional example) and would tend to
act largely independently under service mandate to get around this
problem...

Isolation in Traveller is a function of jump technology. 'Pockets' in
the Imperium would be separated by (mini or mega-)rifts, e.g. the Domain
of Deneb.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and SF Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:20:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Hi Kenji!

You'd love the bit we've come up with over on the tech list. Short
range meson guns combined with a surveilance system. The idea being to
protect important persons in "open" areas. 

Assassin pulls gun, gets spotted, and a *small* meson discharge either
scrambles his heart/brain (if you are rushed) or blows away his gun
hand (if you want him alive for questioning).

No more worrying about people being in the line of fire.

And a modified version is great for impressing the natives on low tech
planets. Point at a dis-believer and he explodes. Much fun.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:29:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Problem with my spreadsheet...maybe...

In mail you write:

> What type of systems WOULDN'T be among the first to explore in an expanding
> 3I? Say long range scans showed a system without a suitable GG (Question: Do
> all GG's contain hydrogen bearing atmospheres?)

All gas giants are 90%+ hydrogen. It's the only thing in the universe
*common* enough.

> and a dry planet, would the
> IISS pass this system up on the first go through an area? Most ship designs
> I've seen tend to run toward a single Jump (of whatever #) worth of fuel
> storage. If there is a nice, fat, populated system nearby, with a couple of
> GG, would they by-pass the less desirable real estate? How likely is it for
> the IISS to specially fit out a ship to explore a system with no easily
> recognizable signs of civilization? Would they even bother, until/unless
> they recieved such a probe? And how long would that sytem sit, unvisited,
> before the IISS did rigout a probe?

Well, they'd have to have not produced a lot of radio/radar traffic.
It's been calculated that some of our larger radar systems will be
clearly detectable as artifical signals for 5-10 parsecs!

> I'm thinking of something along the lines of Moties here. What factors would
> cause a "pocket" in or around the 3I that would NOT be explored until much
> later in Imperial history?

Well, as I note in another message, there was a reason i made it a
fringe area. Preferrably with the world with Imperial presence being a
sort of "boom town" due to a major mineral strike. 

Under the right circumstances, I can see a scout discovering something
like this, and either being at the end of a exploration sweep, or close
enough to the end that he decides this is a good reason to head back. 

So he gets back, the news gets out, and meanwhile, the next sweep  of
the area happens to have that adjacent system at the end of the sweep.
So it could be a couple of *years* before that system gets visited, and
in that time, the system with the "big strike" could have grown into
someplace fairly large.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #753
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Friday, August 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 754



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

HIWG CD
Re: Fall Travel Planner
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Weapons expert needed
IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)
re: Military Service
Re: LoM
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!
Re: Military Service
Re: Military service
An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.
Re: Military Service 
Re: Off-topic political rant
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML
LOM
Re: New GURPS TNS
Re: Weapons expert needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:57:23 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD

	To all those awaiting shipment of version 1.1 of the HIWG/TML CD ROM:

	They should be going out in the mail tomorrow, it's taken me a little longer
than expected to make copies this time because of some problems (that plus
there are a pretty good number this time to send out).
	Insofar as I know they all work, though some would only be made at single
speed because of either hardware or software problems (I'm still not sure
which, I've reinstalled windows once and the burner software several times to
work out problems). So much for ease of use and diagnosis.
	Jim V is also owed a large thanks for plugging away for about 6-7 weeks non-
stop on Gal 2.4 so it could make it on this CD.
	The CD is now up to around 320-350 megabytes of material, and still growing.
If this growth continues it might take two CD's next year.


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 20:55:48 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Fall Travel Planner

On 08/20/98 at 04:10 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>> I am looking to take a vacation in the Rhylanor Star System sometime in the
>> next year. Do you have any information on the best carrier by which I can
>> book middle passage from Terra/Solomani Rim, hopefully stopping at
>> Sylea/Core and then following the old frontier routes through Corridor
>> sector to the Domain of Deneb. I believe Tukera Lines, LIC offers a
>> complete service, but I have always questioned their ethics. Perhaps you
>> could advise if one of the smaller lines such as Oberlindes would be better
>> value, and perhaps more morally sound? In addition, please advise which
>> insurance you would recommend as I am concerned about Vargr Pirates and the
>> ever present Zhodani threat.

>Nobody in their right *minds* would want to go through Core.  What's
>wrong  with going to Reavers' Deep instead?

Through Reavers' Deep!  Hee!  Hee!  Who's selling that K & R
insurance again? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:57:47 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

++Good!

At 10:00 PM 8/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>	To all those awaiting shipment of version 1.1 of the HIWG/TML CD ROM:
>
>	They should be going out in the mail tomorrow, it's taken me a little longer
>than expected to make copies this time because of some problems (that plus
>there are a pretty good number this time to send out).
>	Insofar as I know they all work, though some would only be made at single
>speed because of either hardware or software problems (I'm still not sure
>which, I've reinstalled windows once and the burner software several times to
>work out problems). So much for ease of use and diagnosis.
>	Jim V is also owed a large thanks for plugging away for about 6-7 weeks non-
>stop on Gal 2.4 so it could make it on this CD.
>	The CD is now up to around 320-350 megabytes of material, and still growing.
>If this growth continues it might take two CD's next year.
>
>
>Bryan
> 

Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:45:50 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:25:36 EDT, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> > > Estimate: 200 to 300 rounds in the last couple minutes. Cook-off in 30
> > > seconds.
> > 
> > Nope.  If this were true, most full-auto weapons will cook off in battle.
> > (I own several machine guns, including a belt-fed, and have run several
> > hundred rounds in that short a period on numerous occasions with no ill
> > effects.) The actual temperature (ala boxed ammo caught in a residential
> > fire) at which rounds will begin to cook off, according to the local fire
> > dept., starts at around 500 degrees.
> 
> I'd agree, though Mr Cook is far more knowledgable than lil ol me.  : )  Not
> two weeks ago at the range, I shot off 200 rounds of 7.62 in about 30 seconds
> out of an M240.  That was both preceded and followed by 800 (in groups of
> 200).  That totals 1000 rounds in about 15 minutes and we weren't cooking off.
> Though during one misfire (of many, grr), i was quite... startled (to put it
> mildly) to see a round sitting in the chamber when i opened the cover
> assembly.  

For people not aware of the dangers of this scenario, try staring down into
a hot-air popcorn popper from above after you've unplugged it and there are
a few unpopped kernels left in the bottom...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:11:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Military Service
...
>Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
>navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
>at times, depending on the local government type and the current
>situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
>half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
>might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
>be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
>same level as Desertion?

  Considering how much (a very great deal) Traveller warships cost per
crewmember required (at least in CT/HG) it seems extremely unlikely that
conscription would be necessary in the 3I or most of its contemporaries.
The same would likely apply to almost every conceivable Imperial service,
with the possible exception of the Army which would depend on how you see
their labour pool being raised.

  E.G. - the ultimate Yanks in space comparison; 300 million (3x10E8) people
at TL 14 (GDP per capita KCr 20), with a 5% military budget is MCr 300,000,
or enough to maintain a force in being of around ten Tigress equivalents
(call it 5 megatons of warships) with a total crew requirement of maybe 50,000
or, plus another 50-100 K in support personnel (note that extensive support
staffing is wildly non-canonical, particularly with respect to fully staffed
engineering and maintenance departments - see pages 32-33 in B5 HG).

  Even if the parent society were decidedly non-violent you should still be
able to scrape up a hundred thousand adventurous, non-conformist, or thrill-
seeking youngsters without too much trouble, at least if they were anything
closely recognizable as culturally human by the standards of the last five
hundred years.

  While I doubt that the Empire would be thrilled about subjects evading
required duty with planetary forces, it certainly wouldn't be evasion of
Imperial service as such (assuming that compulsory Imperial service would
be rare, and more likely to involve personnel with specific skills than
simple warm bodies - i.e., Dr. Krenstein might be important, but another
ten Marine divisions are easy to fill, if not train).

  Drafting replacements of levied units sounds plausible, but depends on
circumstances and background assumptions; I don't recall fow Mr. Berry's
essay on the IA treated this.

        Steven Hudson
                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:15:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Military Service

>Sadly, history is full of mistakes like this. The situation might flare
>up, and my country might be invaded. In that case, I will leave it behind
>if I have to. I will not fight and die for my country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A soldier's intent isn't to die for his country, it's to make a bunch of
>invading soldiers die for *their* country. <g>

  IIRC, some of the German Left actually refused to participate and then
tried to end the Great War immediately, and I doubt that such a large
conflict to serve so little purpose can be found elsewhere in history.
While it's true that this attitude wouldn't have helped in Manchuria or
Czechoslovakia, the oft-touted conventional approach was a complete
disaster in 1914.

  Perhaps it's a question of actions and beliefs being appropriate to
the circumstances of the day. As someone pointed out, the Rebellion
would have fizzled completely if the IN had largely collectively decided
that their loyalties lay with the concept of the Imperium as a whole
rather than opting for their particular causes (region, race, lord, or
career as the case may be).

  Of course, given the writers' knowledge of that fact it can be assumed
that the MT era Imperium was being defined as a rotted out shell, in terms
of its identity as a polity.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:46:45 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: LoM

Letter of Marque arrived here in New Zealand two days ago :)

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:10:14 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Black ICE wrote:
>
> > I always find it amusing when a citizen of a free nation, such as the
> > United States or Sweden, claims a moral superiority over those who, by
> > volunteering to defend that nation, ensure that the first-named citizen
> > can assert such superiority.
>
> Well, I will get back to this later in my letter. First, I will answer
> your statements, to show you what I mean.

You don't, and if you were here in the states I would quote Voltaire.But since
you are not your rights are your own to surrender.

> > Do you honestly believe that the benevolent good-will of the Soviet
> > Union was all that stood between Sweden and the fate suffered by Poland,
> > Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.?
>
> Yes, I do. Let me explain why.

Ok, you didn't explain anything so I snipped it.

> There is one thing that the Allied forces (in this case led by the US) did
> wrong during the cleaning of Europe. The Dresden bombings. Dresden was not
> a military target, so many German civilians fled there from more
> industrial cities. The Allied forced bombed the city beyond recognition,
> in order to lower the morale of the Germans.
>
> Boy, did they succeed.

Good, it worked. War is not a pretty thing, to bad peace is the cause.

> > Those who claim that an unwillingness to serve in the forces that guard
> > one's country, and one's way of life, is "far more healthy" than a
> > willingness to fight, if necessary, to defend one's nation and way of
> > life, must be careful.  After all, they may end up with the kind of
> > military that they desire....

Ah, I see Niccolos great work in action. The Prince should be on everyfree
persons bookshelf. How quickly we forget.

> I meant the "far more healthy" in a very literal way when I wrote it. I
> do not want to get wounded or killed, and I will do almost anything to
> avoid it.

I believe the word you are looking for is Coward, it's ok that iswhat is
expected of most modern "men".

> And yes, I would like the Swedish state to scrap the military forces
> completely.

Do you have a choice of overlord, or will any one that comes along do?

> Now, let me make a few statements. First, I cannot and will not accept
> what the US did to Japan at the end of the war.

So, we're not asking you too.

> Japan was on the verge of
> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended in
> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
> because of this.

SO, fortunes of war.

> Also, the US has a history stained by many other crimes against humanity.

Yep, that's history the of the white man for Ya.

> The Vietnam war is a good example of this, and the crimes against the
> native Americans (I know, that was a long time ago, but still) is another.

So...  Get to a point.

> I must say that I do not respect the United States of America. Please do
> not take that personally, but still that's my opinion.

Ok, now if get buck you might get a cup of coffee.

> As for Communism and other political stuff, I am myself far out in the
> left field, and I am proud of it.

> I think it's a shame that the US only
> shows one side of the coin, so to speak.

As an Socialist you do very badly by the rest of us.

> Jens Rydholm, student, non-military, communist and coward

 Jens, you are probably a well meaning sort. I am caustic
in my response because you haven't quite thought out your
stance. Bless you for having the concept that a man is responsible
for his neighbor. But you mistake the value of liberty, it is not
something given, if it were it would have no worth. It has to be
bought, and unfortunately for you the coin is blood.
Even Ghandi put himself in harm's way.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 01:14:59 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In a message dated 8/19/98 17:40:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:

<< >3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
 >cooking off?
 
 A few hundred degrees Celsius IIRC, though this depends on how long they
 are exposed to the heat, as it has to penetrate the shell casing.
  >>
 Wouldn't the heat required to cause a cook-off, have already plasticized the
barrel? (I.e. make it extremely soft and deformed?)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 01:23:16 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hello, citizens of the TML!

Leonard Erickson needlessly provoked:

>You'd love the bit we've come up with over on the tech list. Short
>range meson guns combined with a surveilance system. The idea being to
>protect important persons in "open" areas. 
>
>Assassin pulls gun, gets spotted, and a *small* meson discharge either
>scrambles his heart/brain (if you are rushed) or blows away his gun
>hand (if you want him alive for questioning).

Hm!  SayBOOM feel inadequate.

So, do these mesons degrade latex?  And does a small meson discharge feel more
"thuddy" or "stingy"?

>No more worrying about people being in the line of fire.

<gales of laughter> Well!  I'm sure _that's_ just a HUGE dang relief for
Travellers! 

>And a modified version is great for impressing the natives on low tech
>planets. Point at a dis-believer and he explodes. Much fun.

Hmph.  Thanks, but opiates are the mass of _my_ religion.  Well, not opiates,
but -- y'know.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz


"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:16:19 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Military Service

I have to say one thing here, as a Marine (Semper Fi), the left is always
getting dupes like Jens to spout their side of the argument, without saying
both sides of it...  I just wonder if she knows that in 'Nam the agressors
were not the USA, but the Left?  I wonder if she knows that in Europe,
Russia invaded nations & we, the USA, stood aside because we had an
agreement...

I would also like to say as a jew, that the Swiss banks still hold Nazi
Wealth that was taken from the jews & the Sweds knew all about what was
going on in the camps & stood by, so they are not, & were never neutral in
WWII...  They choice to side with the Nazis in a minor way, they are as
guilty as the Nazis ever were...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 01:28:37 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Military service

Please take this as the serious non-judgemental question that is is?  Is there
ANYTHING you would fight and die for?

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:36:00 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.

Well over the past 24 hours I've seen such an outpouring of arrogance that I can 
not remain silent.

Those who serve in the military generally have a sense of duty and face the 
prospect of death or injury (usually only in an abstract sense), for this these 
people deserve respect as _individuals_. But then again so do nurses, 
teachers, doctors and a host of other professions, they all deserve just as 
much respect. However let us not forget that war in all its "glory" is a crime 
against humanity and if it were not for those who serve in silence it could not 
exist. There are no "fortunes of war" just unmitigated horror. Nor should we 
forget that the greatest threat faced by any democracy is from its own military, 
far more democracies have persished on the bayonets of their own army than 
have ever fallen under the boots of an invader.

Answer me this, who deserves greater respect: the private who fell on Omaha 
beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau? [answer: both are equally 
deserving].


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:52:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Military Service 

>Secondly, concidering the news that is coming across the television as I
>write this, I am making a serious plea that this incepiant flame war end
>now! I am sure the news being broadcast will only serve to fan the fires,
...

  Gee, I'd have thought the Supreme Court decision on the constitutionality
of Quebecs' potential separation would be of local interest only :)

  More seriously, the flexibility of the Imperium wasn't that bad (e.g.
allowing the establishment of the Solomani Autonomous region to defuse
tensions - OC, it didn't work). The problem in MT appears to have been 
that Dulinor decided that his opening position was incompatible with
Strephon and that negotiation was undesirable.

  It starts to make the Vargr look reasonable.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:51:44 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant

...
>> And as for myself, neither as right-wing as mainstream American politics,
>> nor a communist, find it a pity that some communists have such a sadly
>> selective memory.

  I've generally found that it's people that have selective memories,
although the latest example was probably a communist. He was really good
at ignoring facts that contradicted his established beliefs. <shrug> Not
really a big surprise, though, is it?

>I'm a capitalist, plain and simple.  State socialism tends to foster the 
>mediocre in that if you can't compete, the government steps in and forces the 
>'other guys' to *let* you compete.  When your taxes keep getting higher and 
>higher to pay for people who cannot or *will not* work, something is 
>inherently wrong.  Pure classical capitalism says, level the playing field, 
>and if you don't want to play on that field, go play in another game.  Let the 
>market and the consumers decide.  Socialism says, we will *constantly* level 
>the playing field so that nobody ever has a clear advantage.

  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that "pure classical capitalism
says we will do _whatever it takes_ to ensure that the playing field will
never be level again". That said, I'm a capitalist* (not that there's been a
pure capitalist state in North America these last fifty years). In practical
terms the "capitalist" system has a history (everywhere in the West) of using
various state resources (intentionally or through criminal misappropriation)
to re-allocate wealth and income for various reasons.

  * in economic theory, anyway.

>FWIW, Sweden has some of the highest tax rates for personal income tax on the 
>planet.  The upper middle class and the upper class tax rates are *killers*.

  True, but their infant mortality rates aren't too embarassing.

  That said, the issue obviously becomes one of values, for which it
might suffice to say that the 3I is based on the (not unreasonable,
IMO) assumption that capitalist market mechanisms are deemed to be
_correct_ models for economic purposes. The Imperium itself is neither a
grand republic nor a market democracy, and doesn't really seem to much
care whether its' inhabitants have those privileges.

  It might not be too cynical to suggest that the Imperium itself is a
representation of the principle that power is an end in itself, again
on the assumption that this is true for the purposes of discussing the
Imperium in the OTU (which point is not stated anywhere, it's just my
own meandering thought on the subject).

>Or the people in the Soviet republics gulagged for loyalty to the old nobility 
>after the October Revolution.  Except for the American Revolution, the *first* 
>thing a revolutionary party does the instant it has control is to purge the 
>party of the very people who can overthrow it.  Hitler did it to the Brown 
>Shirts.  Lenin did it to the Bolsheviks.  The French did it to *everybody*.

  Umm, as the rebels did it to the Loyalists I should assume that was
intended as irony?

>ObTrav:
>
>This kind of stuff even happened in the Third Imperium during the Rebellion.  
>More than one planet was bombed back into the Stone Age by the various 
>factions.  Almost makes you proud to be an Imperial citizen, doesn't it?

  See above :) - if the Empire assumes that little other than power matters in
practical terms (the theory must have received barest lip-service [inopportune
phrase, that] for the Rebellion to have slagged the Imperium so thoroughly)
then the outcome was almost predictable once the (very stable?) command 
structure was decapitated.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:22:36 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

David J Smart wrote:

> I've been thinking about the nature of firearms in Traveller and
> thought of 4 questions I'm unable to answer. My questions are:

> 1)  Would rifling the barrel of a shotgun improve the accuracy of slug
> rounds or just result in damage to the weapon when shot is used?

        1a) Rifling would improve slug accuracy.

        Many shotgun manufacturers have optional "slug gun" barrels
        which are rifled for improved accuracy. However, it is also
        possible to fire air-rifled slugs from smoothbore cylinder
        barrels. The air-rifled slugs have rifling-like vanes on the
        sides which induce spin. (I have been using air-rifled Fiocchi
        Brennekens (sp?) with my 12-gauge Benelli S90 M3. The slugs
        appear to be quite accurate.)

        1b) If proper shotshells are used, rifling will not be
        damaged. However, old shotshells and iron shot would probably
        damage rifling.

        If felt-plug shot (that is, very old shotshells) is fired
        from slug barrel, the shot pattern will usually become
        tighter since the shot will bounce off the rifling towards
        the center of barrel (old way to tighter the shot pattern
        was to make scratches and notches inside the barrel, but
        fortunately this method is not used anymore)

        In modern shotshells the shot is packed inside a plastic cup
        which falls off when the shot exists from barrel. This cup
        prevents shot from touching the barrel walls and damaging the
        rifling of slug guns.

> 2)  Would adding a truly frictionless surface to the inside of the
> barrel help or hurt such a weapon?

        Frictionless barrel would be a great advantage on any gun,
        and recent designs are striving towards less friction. Large
        amount of the heat generated during firing comes from bullet/
        barrel friction.

        Some modern low-friction designs include electrolyte erosion
        to smoothen the edges of rifling, polygonal rifling to minimize
        barrel inner surface area, lubricated bullets, barrel coatings,
        ceramic barrels, etc.

> 3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
> cooking off?

        3) Depends on the type of propellant used. The only estimate
        I was able to find suggested that rounds would begin to cook
        off at 500C temperature.

        An easy way to prevent cook-off is to use open-bolt receiver
        which chambers the round just prior to firing. Some weapons
        can switch between the modes of operation, firing full-auto
        with open-bolt and single shots with closed-bolt.

> 4)  Can non-cased rounds cook off? (I believe Germany's ground forces
> are using such a round.)

        4) They do cook-off, but not as easily as cased rounds.

        "Due to the cook-off temperature of the new propellant charge,
         approximately 100C higher than for nitrocellulose powder, a
         cook-off point meeting the requirements of a new infantry
         weapon can be achieved."



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:22:41 +0200
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> FWIW, Sweden has some of the highest tax rates for personal
> income tax on the
> planet.

I *was* going to stay out of this, but I couldn't. ;-)

You may well be right about the tax rate (it's certainly high), but then, in
Sweden it doesn't wreck one's economy beyond all saving if one has the bad
taste to get a serious, long-lasting, incapacitating illness that requires
constant hospital care and heavy medication. I see the Swedish taxes as a
lottery. Sure, the tickets *are* kind of expensive, but the jackpot (that
you don't really want to win ;-) can *easily* be worth several thousand a
day...

>  The upper middle class and the upper class tax rates are *killers*.

Um, no. I believe I'm part of the upper middle class, and I make a very nice
living thank you. And the upper class generally have professional tax
evaders to make sure they don't actually have to pay for the services they
somehow forget to refuse using...

Now, I wouldn't *mind* lower taxes. Unless, of course, it meant that only
the truly rich can afford care, that the schools are neglected, that we get
a huge underclass, etc.

This is not to say that the Swedish system is perfect, because it *isn't*,
not by a long shot. It's just that it's not a horrible, evil
commie-mutant-bastard system run by power-mad taxmen either. Just like the
US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist robber baron capitalist
system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 09:50:14 +0100
From: Fred Hood <Fred@cetaganda.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LOM

Arrived here (in Kent) this morning. This is going to be distracting 
since I'm on my way to the B5 con. at Heathrow.

Fred.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:27:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: New GURPS TNS

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:

> >
> >They aren't the dates that the message arrives at a location - for example,
> >Regina? So some messages would arrive out of sync?
> >
> >Dom
> 
> 
> I believe that the date/UPP represents when and where that specific report
> was generated.
> 
> The messages I am referring to are not the 'this just in...' messages, but
> rather the archive that you can review the various story threads.  I would
> (and do) expect those to be in some sort of order (chronologically has
> always been the standard.)

I will add them to my TNS-Library, where they are sorted chronologically, 
as they are sorted by date entry. I also don't know another way.
It would be interesting to calculate the time it takes the messages to
arrive at various worlds via the x-boat net. That's always been considered
in the TNS publication, and is part of the Traveller universe as we know
it. Hopefully it will keep this way.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:16:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:25:36 EDT, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Though during one misfire (of many, grr), i was quite... startled
>> (to put it mildly) to see a round sitting in the chamber when i
>> opened the cover assembly.

> For people not aware of the dangers of this scenario, try staring down into
> a hot-air popcorn popper from above after you've unplugged it and there are
> a few unpopped kernels left in the bottom...

We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
at me. 

I *slowly* closed the action, and we tried several times to get it to
fire. No joy.

So we finally let it sit for a while (pointed downrange), and then
opened it (while trying to stay out of the direct flight path of any
pieces if the cartridge went off).

We finally got the casing out to discover that it was *empty*.
Apparently a bit of grit had kept it from ejecting, so instead of
loading a new cartridge, the old one had gotten shoved back into the
chamber. If I hadn't been doing rapid-fire I'd have caught it.

But like I said, that was one *scary* quarter hour.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #754
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Traveller-digest       Friday, August 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 755



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Military Service
Re: Weapons expert needed 
Re: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc. 
Re: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.
Conspiricies and Meson Weapons (was: Hello, citizens of the TML)
Weapons expert needed - one more question
Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question
Re: Military Service
Re: Off-topic political rant
One small comment only...
Re: Possible subject for trav-chat
Re: Off-topic political rant, dragging it back to traveller.
Re: Military service
Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches
Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches
Re: Off-topic political rant
Re: Weapons expert needed
OT Politics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 05:36:21 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Military Service

>
>Jens has the right to decide whether or not he choses to take up arms 
>for his country.  I read *ZERO* condescendence 
>in his posts toward military personnel; he merely stated it just 
>wasn't for him.  So be it.  I can respect that.
>

I agree.  Jens and I have been having good conversation off the list....

>> Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, 
subsector
>> navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory 
service

[snip]

>I don't see the 3I as drafting anyone for military service.  When 
>you've got trillions of citizens around, it shouldn't be hard to find 
>a couple billion people who want to sign up.  As for reassigning 
>Imperial forces and bringing Colonial forces into the Imperial ranks, 
>yeah, I can see this, but I consider them to have previously 
>volunteered.

I agree with this.  

Someone posted that ITTU they believed that the draft rules indicated a 
draft.  I think the draft rules are only that:  rules designed so that 
someone can begin a career to gain skills.  I don't think it translates 
into an Imperial draft at all.  Maybe there are provisions for 
Sector/Subsector levies in the event of the next Frontier/Solomani 
/Vargr/Aslan war, but not imperium wide.  I think that billions of folks 
would see Imperial service as a way to get off the planet and out into 
life... like [ducks] Luke Skywalker.

>Drafts on a *local* level to fill the void left by colonial units 
>getting Imperialised, *that* I can see in a heartbeat.  Imperial regs 
>probably don't cover Colonial forces.
>

Yep.  And maybe even in emergencies, prior service personnel (scouts, 
navy, marine), or heck, maybe even merchant captains can be "pressed" 
into service for a period.  Probably lots of powers granted to local 
Imperial force commanders...

>> Local color bits: 

Gotta love em.
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:07:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed 

> In a message dated 8/19/98 17:40:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:
> 
> << >3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
>  >cooking off?
>  
>  A few hundred degrees Celsius IIRC, though this depends on how long they
>  are exposed to the heat, as it has to penetrate the shell casing.
>   >>
>  Wouldn't the heat required to cause a cook-off, have already plasticized the
> barrel? (I.e. make it extremely soft and deformed?)

No, the melting point of gun barrel steel is over a thousand degrees Centigrade.  I'm not sure *exactly* what it is, but I used to work in a foundry making cast bronze, which melts around 1800 Farenheit, and we used steel tools to skimm the dross off the molten bronze.  They didn't melt unless you held them into the bottom of the 'pot'.  The barrel will lose its temper maybe, but it won't melt.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:10:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc. 

> Answer me this, who deserves greater respect: the private who fell on Omaha 
> beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau? [answer: both are equally 
> deserving].

I agree.  I also respect the Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam War.  And this is my *LAST* post on this topic.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:16:22 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>
>Well over the past 24 hours I've seen such an outpouring of arrogance 
>that I can not remain silent.

Doubtful that it is arrogance, but definately an outpouring of feelings.  

>Those who serve in the military generally have a sense of duty and 
>face the prospect of death or injury (usually only in an abstract 
>sense), for this these people deserve respect as _individuals_. But 
>then again so do nurses, teachers, doctors and a host of other 
>professions, they all deserve just as much respect. 

Yep, I most certainly agree here.  We must respect human life, and treat 
others with dignity, as we would want to be treated.  This is a general 
rule of life.

>However let us 
>not forget that war in all its "glory" is a crime against humanity 
>and if it were not for those who serve in silence it could not 
>exist. There are no "fortunes of war" just unmitigated horror. 

We'll disagree here.  If it is a "crime against humanity", and I'm not 
conceding that point, then the perpetrators of the crime must be 
punished.  That is why we had a WWII:  the perpetrators of the crimes, 
those who started the wars, were punished.  And that created the horrors 
of war.  They were, in most cases, brought on by the belligerents 
themselves.

I believe there are "just" wars...and that such wars should be fought.

>Nor 
>should we forget that the greatest threat faced by any democracy is 
>from its own military, far more democracies have persished on the 
>bayonets of their own army than have ever fallen under the boots of 
>an invader.
>

And I have to disagree here, too.  

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:45:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Conspiricies and Meson Weapons (was: Hello, citizens of the TML)

Jeez, this is begining to look like that thing the "Alternate Universe"
Captain Kirk used to insure his position on his ship.  Remeber?  The
captain's lover activates a panel, presses a button, and a couple of
Red-shirts get vaped?  Everyone in high station should have one!  So now I
present to you...

The X-TEK "Wrath of God" Class Presonal Meson System!

For a small fee, X-TEK will install a small deep meson site underneath you
home, office, presidential palace, bunker, or secret lair.  From a choice
location you specify, you may control this system to destroy anyone,
anywhere on your property.  You may also opt for our remote option, a
targeting system-comm link to your site, so that you may activate it
anywhere you are as well as from your private control station.

Amuse your friends!  Destroy potential assasins!  Give them...
"The Wrath of God!"

And if you need to cover something up real quick, try the "FNORD" Class
neuraliser wand!
(Ray-Ban's not included)

Ok, enough insanity...

Suggestion for the IMTU Geek Code:
This was discussed durnig yesterday #traveller chat.  A code that details
the level of covert activity/black ops/conspiricy within the 3rd Imp.  I
suggested FNORD++ for obvious reasons.  "BRuad" had suggested C3I++ for
"Conspiriacy in the 3rd Imperium".  It also has a military implication ;)

I was never here...
(The Commander pulls out a wand shaped device and puts on some shades,
there is a flash....)

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:13:29 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Weapons expert needed - one more question

James Lindsay posted:
>
>> Though during one misfire (of many, grr), i was quite... startled (to put
it
>> mildly) to see a round sitting in the chamber when i opened the cover
>> assembly.  
>
>For people not aware of the dangers of this scenario, try staring down into
>a hot-air popcorn popper from above after you've unplugged it and there are
>a few unpopped kernels left in the bottom...

Not to mention a popcorn kernel at worst will take out an eye.
A machine gun round cooking off into your face..messy, very messy.

One more thing, I saw the movie "Lethal Weapon 4" Wednesday night; it
showed the effects of an AK-47 fired one-handed on full auto under 
about 20 feet of water. Blew away the target at a range of about one
inch. I understand from previous TML postings that such use is possible
without the barrel exploding but wouldn't the chance of jamming be
*much* higher?

BTW, thanks to everyone who replied to my previous four questions. You've 
all helped tremendously (as always)!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:49:51 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:13:29 -0500, Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> James Lindsay posted:
> >
> >> Though during one misfire (of many, grr), i was quite... startled (to put
> it
> >> mildly) to see a round sitting in the chamber when i opened the cover
> >> assembly.  
> >
> >For people not aware of the dangers of this scenario, try staring down into
> >a hot-air popcorn popper from above after you've unplugged it and there are
> >a few unpopped kernels left in the bottom...
> 
> Not to mention a popcorn kernel at worst will take out an eye.
> A machine gun round cooking off into your face..messy, very messy.

But if that kernel happens to be one of those Orvil Redinbocker pre
buttered, pre salted babies, it could really sting ;)

> One more thing, I saw the movie "Lethal Weapon 4" Wednesday night; it
> showed the effects of an AK-47 fired one-handed on full auto under 
> about 20 feet of water. Blew away the target at a range of about one
> inch. I understand from previous TML postings that such use is possible
> without the barrel exploding but wouldn't the chance of jamming be
> *much* higher?

I'm not sure about this one.  The only weapon that *I* know of that can
effectively used under water with no problems is the Glock series of
handguns.  I remember visiting a guy's website where he took quite a few
pictures of him firing his Glock while fully submerged in a large tank of
water.  You might be able to find the URL by doing a web search...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:06:01 -0500
From: Josh <ltldoc@ComputerPro.COM>
Subject: Re: Military Service

 Guys, please give this up?  This isn't a flame section.  Although it gives
me a warm fuzzy to be the recipiant of so much mail, that fuzzy feeling
fades upon reading flame after flame.
 You all are entiteled to your opinions and have put them out concerning
this matter.  I don't agree with Jen, (myself being a Navy Corpsman for the
last 5 years, a desert storm vet, and serving on the first warship off
Albania when they went nuts) but I respect this person's views.  If you all
have to call Jenn a coward for not wanting in the military, better just
start using that word everyday, cause there's a lot of people out there
that see no reason to get shot at for their country.  (I know a certain
Commander in Chief...)  
 Anyways, please give it up or move it to a flame board.  Thanks

Josh Eastridge
Hospitalman 3rd Class
US Navy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:58:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant

From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> I'm a capitalist, plain and simple.  State socialism tends to foster the 
> mediocre in that if you can't compete, the government steps in and forces the 
> 'other guys' to *let* you compete.  When your taxes keep getting higher and 
> higher to pay for people who cannot or *will not* work, something is 
> inherently wrong.  Pure classical capitalism says, level the playing field, 
> and if you don't want to play on that field, go play in another game.  Let the 
> market and the consumers decide.  Socialism says, we will *constantly* level 
> the playing field so that nobody ever has a clear advantage.
> 
> FWIW, Sweden has some of the highest tax rates for personal income tax on the 
> planet.  The upper middle class and the upper class tax rates are *killers*.

	From the point of view of an economist Sweden has just chosen a 
different risk/return trade-off than the U.S.  Think of it this way: in 
the stock market you can invest in risky technology stocks that could 
make you rich or broke, or you can invest in stable "blue-chip" stocks 
like GE & Ford that won't make you rich but will provide a safe, 
predictable, if modest, return.
	The U.S. has chosen a path like investing in the tech stocks.  
Individuals can become billionaires or live in cardboard boxes.  Sweden 
has chosen to be like the blue-chips where no one makes it big but 
everyone's well taken care of, too.  As long as both countries are 
functioning democracies neither really has the right to criticize the other.

ObTrav:  The government types in Trav have always represented quite a of 
diversity, but the economic system is never really mentioned.  Worlds 
with a democratic government could vary from Jens' pacifist Marxist 
paradise all the way to unrestrained libertarian capitalism, and as long as 
these systems have the support of the people they're all democracies.

>  They estimate that 30 million died under Stalin during World War 2.

	No doubt Stalin was a monster, but how many of these 30 million 
should properly be laid at the feet of Hitler?  It's worth remembering 
that while the West likes to think of D-Day as the nail in the Nazi 
coffin, it was the Soviet people that destroyed Hitler's finest -- at great 
cost to themselves.
 
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:23:56 -0700
From: Andrew Gingery <gingerya@ohsu.edu>
Subject: One small comment only...

>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
>

It isn't? Since when?
I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?
Good thing they took the time to learn how to speak to us...
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:44:12 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Possible subject for trav-chat

- -----Original Message-----
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:45 AM
Subject: Possible subject for trav-chat


>In my previous message, my little inside joke got messed up:
>
>the 2nmd paragraph of th TNS entry should have read:
>"Independant Counsel Ken Siirka is leading the investigation" :->
>
>
>
Isn't Siirka the Vlanii word for star... like Zaru Siirka... is something
Like the grand empire of the stars?
lol

not missed here.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:01:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, dragging it back to traveller.

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> I'm a capitalist, plain and simple.  State socialism tends to foster the
> mediocre in that if you can't compete, the government steps in and forces the
> 'other guys' to *let* you compete.  When your taxes keep getting higher and
> higher to pay for people who cannot or *will not* work, something is
> inherently wrong.  Pure classical capitalism says, level the playing field,
> and if you don't want to play on that field, go play in another game.  Let the
> market and the consumers decide.  Socialism says, we will *constantly* level
> the playing field so that nobody ever has a clear advantage.

Stop and think about it a minute. You want to know the best example of
pure, parket driven, no state-interference capitalism on the planet?

The Mob.

They are subject to NO legal restraints in the conduct of their
business, other than the big one that their business is illegal. No OSHA
rules, no EPA rules, no IRS, no Justice department anti-trust rules,
nada. Pure money-driven capitalism. They do whatever it takes to
maintain and extend their markets.

You wanna live in _THAT_ society?

And in your definition of pure capitalism, you say 'level the playing
field'. How, pray tell, do you do that? If the Government does it, how
is that different from your definition of socialism. If the Government
doesn't do it, what prevents the eventual consolidation of all power
into a few monopolies?

Remember all that eeeevil socialist anti-trust welfare state handholding
laws we've got here in the US weren't passed in response top some
do-gooders whims, but in response to very real and very destructive
business practices arising directly out of the great capitalist lazziez
faire atmosphere of the 1800's.

Finally, if you don't like living in Sweden, don't. While socialist is a
filthy word in modern American conservative politics, there are many
places on the planet where they don't regard the amassing of capital as
the sole important goal in life. It boggles capitalists minds when the
run into people from places like Sweden or Denmark where there is a very
strong community nurturing ethos, where the fortunate are obligated to
care for the less fortunate. 

The prevailing conservative thought in US politics is "I got _mine_
Jack! Sod off! Sink or swim. Dog eat dog. If you can't swim with the
sharks, get out of the pool." This is as abhorrent to their way of
thinking as their state socialism is to you. But think, they have a
higher literacy rate, lower crime rate, lower infant mortality rate,
higher per capita income than the US.

Here we place great emphasis on the rights of the individual to achieve
as much as they can, with little emphasis on what that individual owes
society for their success. We idolize the 'self-made millionaire'
without ever realizing that there's no way in hell that person got where
they did without a hell of a lot of support form the community,
somewhere. What we don't have here is as stong a feeling of 'giving
back', of repaying the community for the success you've achieved,
because we maintain this fiction that all of it was done by individual
will alone. 

This is all _utterly_ relevant to traveller, because we have on one
hand, the pure market-driven capitalism that is the cornerstone of the
Third Imperium. What of the other points of view. Does the Imperium just
ride roughshod over them? Or is that the basis of Honor that was so
important to Cleon..is the concept of nobliesse oblige strong enough to
temper the excesses of capitalism, at least until the Imperium
self-destructs in the Rebellion? 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Military service

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com) writes:

> Please take this as the serious non-judgemental question that it is?
> Is there ANYTHING you would fight and die for?

I assume this question is aimed at the TML readership in general.

For me, the answer is "You *BETCHA*!"

I'm a vet and son of a vet.  I'd die for my family and friends,
I'd die for my principles, my country, and my way of life.

If this sounds pompous, consider: I wasn't drafted.  I *enlisted*
in the USMC.  I volunteered to serve EOD duty.  Although there were
no active military excursions during my hitch (in the mid-70s), we
were all ready and willing.

Do I *want* to die.  Of course not.  Do I think there are some things
in this world more important than my life?  Absolutely.


Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:

> We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
> the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
> just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
> at me. 
> 
> I *slowly* closed the action, and we tried several times to get it to
> fire. No joy.
> 
> So we finally let it sit for a while (pointed downrange), and then
> opened it (while trying to stay out of the direct flight path of any
> pieces if the cartridge went off).
> 
> We finally got the casing out to discover that it was *empty*.
> Apparently a bit of grit had kept it from ejecting, so instead of
> loading a new cartridge, the old one had gotten shoved back into the
> chamber. If I hadn't been doing rapid-fire I'd have caught it.

Been there, done that. :^)  BTW, for those of you will little or no
firearms experience, Leonard's description of the steps taken when
a round apparently fails to fire are *exactly* correct.  Hangfires
will usually go off in 2-3 minutes, if they are going to fire at all.
If they don't fire after that time, you can carefully open the action
and remove the defective round.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:13 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches

"Important worlds" in the Spinward Marches, ca. 1100
(Importance measured by:
	population
	tech level
	starport
	naval base presence
	capital world
	rich
	industrial)

14: Trin          3235 A894A96-F  A Hi In Cp           101 Im M0 V
13: Mora          3124 AA99AC7-F  A Hi In Cx           112 Im M4 V
13: Glisten       2036 A000986-F  A Hi Na In As Cp     821 Im K9 V
11: Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im M0 V M4 D
11: Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F  A Hi Cp              810 Im M2 VI
11: Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im M3 D M7 D
11: Jewell        1106 A777999-C  A Hi In Cp           623 Im G7 V
11: Gram          1223 A895957-B  M Hi In Cp           603 Sw F2 D M2 D
11: Efate         1705 A646930-D  B Hi In              810 Im K4 V
11: Darrian       0627 A463955-G    Hi                 225 Da G1 V M1 D
11: Collace       1237 B628943-D  S Hi In              101 Cs F1 V M6 D
11: Chronor       0304 A6369A5-D  Z Hi Cp              304 Zh M8 V
10: Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V
10: Porozlo       2715 A867A74-B    Hi                 201 Im M1 V M9 D
10: Pallique      3029 A511965-E    Hi Na In Ic     A  320 Im M1 V M0 D
10: Mire          0527 A665A95-B  M Hi Cp              110 Da M3 V
10: Iderati       0732 A887798-C  N Ag Ri Cp           201 Im M2 V
10: Fornice       3025 A354A87-C    Hi                 202 Im M0 V

18 out of 438 worlds in the Marches are considered "Important".
These worlds support the long-haul trade for this subsector.

A big suprise for me is that Gram is quite a powerful world, 
rated higher than Regina and even with Rhylanor and Strouden.
Of course, Trin and Mora are no surprise.

Looking at specific routes, I'd say the long-haul routes follow
X-Boat jumproutes (which are more likely to be constantly patrolled).
So, for example, we have, in Xboat-jump-distances:

	Efate    -4- Regina 
	Regina   -7- Rhylanor
	Rhylanor -1- Porozlo
	Rhylanor -5- Lunion
	Lunion   -2- Strouden
	Lunion   -4- Fornice
        Lunion   -5- Mora
	Mora     -1- Fornice
	Mora     -6- Trin
	Fornice  -5- Trin
	Strouden -6- Trin
	Pallique -2- Fornice
	Pallique -3- Mora
	Pallique -6- Lunion
	Pallique -3- Trin
	Glisten  -5- Trin
	Glisten  -6- Fornice
	Glisten  -7- Mora
	Glisten  -7- Strouden

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches

Robert Eaglestone writes:
> "Important worlds" in the Spinward Marches, ca. 1100
> (Importance measured by:
>      population
>      tech level
>      starport
>      naval base presence
>      capital world
>      rich
>      industrial)
> 
> 14: Trin          3235 A894A96-F  A Hi In Cp           101 Im M0 V
> 13: Mora          3124 AA99AC7-F  A Hi In Cx           112 Im M4 V
How exactly is a sector capital (with all other attributes identical) less
important than a subsector capital?  I suspect you aren't scanning for Cx, just
Cp ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:47:49 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant

Jonas Karlsson writes:
>I *was* going to stay out of this, but I couldn't. ;-)
I, too, have been caught in a moment of weekness

>You may well be right about the tax rate (it's certainly high),
Ireland is in a similar boat.

>if one has the bad taste to get a serious, long-lasting, incapacitating
illness
Yes, we too in Ireland beleive that if you get sick, the state should be
there to support you rather than let you die on a curbside somewhere.
If you can't find work, the State won't let you starve either. Sure, some
people take advantage of this, but the alternative is either heniously
complex or else uncaring.
The free education, including College, doesn't hurt either.

>Um, no. I believe I'm part of the upper middle class, and I make a very
nice
>living thank you.
What I noticed when visiting Sweden is that although the taxes made the
goods about twice as expensive, the average salaries were much higher as
well. (If only Ireland would catch on to the latter half!)

>This is not to say that the Swedish system is perfect, because it *isn't*,
Neither is the Irish by a long shot. They waste _so_ much money. The could
have taxes if they just got their act together.
It is hard to build a good socialist country. It requires people with more
of a mind for others than themselves. Idealists. Captialism is founded on
indifference to your fellow man, and self promotion. Much more common
traits in society.

>US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist robber baron capitalist
>system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
I could argue, but I'd better not. :-)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:30:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

>We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
>the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
>just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
>at me. 
...
>But like I said, that was one *scary* quarter hour.

  Now wouldn't that be a real pain in the middle of a firefight?
Hmm, duck, and try to clear jam without losing part of your less
favourite hand?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:27:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: OT Politics

Jo Grant wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Captialism is founded on indifference to your fellow man, and self
promotion. Much more common traits in society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, not exactly.

Capitalism is founded on personal responsibility and enlightened
self-interest (though some may call it's enlightenment a bit dim <g>). 

One thing missing in the current form of capitalism practiced in the US
is the social responsibility aspect. I think that as we have seen the
central government take up social welfare causes (and tax people to
do it), the social responsibilty ethic has withered. Why spend time,
money and effort to help others when the government is already taking
your hard-earned money to do so? A result has been a disdain for
charitable and socially responsible acts. Government responds by
helping more people (and helping people more), taxing and taxing to
do so, the aggravation by those who see themselves as supporting
everyone else increases. A vicious circle, on and on, even with those
who benefit from government aid adding to the discontent by claiming
their gov't assistance as an entitlement.

<Apostasy warning>
A recent bit of support for this: During the Reagan era war on taxes,
charitable donations went up in almost direct ratio to tax cuts. 
Of course, gov't tax revenues went up as well (people made a lot
more money, a slightly lesser percent tax on a lot more money
equals higher tax revenue after a tax cut).

<ObTrav>
Take a balanced society. Add a distant government (say, the 3i) that
takes over an important aspect of that society - defense, research,
social welfare, whatever. Make the 3i's involvement compulsory,
non-responsive to local interests, and burdensome. Then, one day
out of the blue, remove the Imperial involvement (Rebellion, anyone?)

Quite possibly, the influenced aspect of the society will have fallen into
disfavor with the populace - say "Scientist" has become synonymous
with "Impy Lapdog". Scientists would have a long, hard road before
being accepted into society again, before they gained support, before
anyone brought up their kids with dreams of being a scientist.
The society will have a hole in it, it'll be like a car engine with a piston
missing. The damage may take generations to recover, if it isn't
enough to usher the world into a long night.

(btw: the first paragraph of ObTrav is based on USgov't economic reform
programs of the 1930's great depression, which according to some
views were so mismanaged that they made the problem worse, 
before being abandoned.)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #755
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Friday, August 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 756



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: One small comment only...
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Re: Fall Travel Planner 
Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches
Re: Imperial legal system (was: Warrant of Restoration)
Re: Off-topic political rant, dragging it back to traveller
Re: Weapons expert needed 
Imperial Commerce Questions
Re: Possible subject for trav-chat
Imperial Defense Questions
Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along
Re: Fall Travel Planner 
Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)
Avalon Hill
Re: Off-topic political rant

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:42:04 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

At 09:23 AM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
>>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
>>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
>
>It isn't? Since when?
>I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?
>Good thing they took the time to learn how to speak to us...

Don't blame us.  It's those darn Brits and their Empire that spread English
around the world.

To be honest, I tried to learn German while in the Army.  The few times I
made it to Germany and tried to practise, the locals spoke perfect English
and it was quicker to use my language.

By the way, I daily hear English, Cantonese, Spanish, and Japanese in my
home city of Mission de San Francisco de Assasi y Pueblo de Yerba Buena.
I've even picked pieces of some of these.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
"Come to Life, Iron Chef!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:49:06 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:

> Japan was on the verge of
> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended in
> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
> because of this.

This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second bomb!
When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup attempt
to force the war to continue.

People are still having medical problems?  Tough.  They started it.  We
finished it.  I learned a very long time ago that if you start a fight you
better be ready to accept the consequences.  The Japanese committed
atrocities on the Chinese, captured prisoners, Koreans.. anyone who got in
their way.  There is no evidence they were ready to surrender until we
demostrated the ability and will to devastate entire cities from a single
plane.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
"Come to Life, Iron Chef!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:17:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fall Travel Planner 

At 04:10 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Nobody in their right *minds* would want to go through Core.  What's wrong 
>with going to Reavers' Deep instead?

Reavers' Deep is *so* late-1000s.  Nothing but tacky little tourist stops
with faux-Aslan cusine.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:24:06 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)

At 08:11 PM 8/20/98 -0700, you wrote:

>  Drafting replacements of levied units sounds plausible, but depends on
>circumstances and background assumptions; I don't recall fow Mr. Berry's
>essay on the IA treated this.

The Imperium expects planets to raise armies for their own defence.  A
certain, small percentage of these troops are organized as Imperial units,
and get high tech equipment and intensive training.

Those Imperial Regiments are paid for out of the Imperial coffers, but
remain on their homeworld (until needed.)  All the locals pay is the cost
of maintaining the bases.  In return they get a core force of high tech
troops.  
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:44:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca> writes:
> 
> >We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
> >the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
> >just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
> >at me. 
> ...
> >But like I said, that was one *scary* quarter hour.
> 
>   Now wouldn't that be a real pain in the middle of a firefight?
> Hmm, duck, and try to clear jam without losing part of your less
> favourite hand?

It's inconvenient, to be sure, but maybe not as bad as you think.
In combat many (well, *most*) range safety rules are simply ignored.
If a "round in battery, failure to fire" occurs, the standard drill
is cycle the action, verify (if possible) that the round ejected
and a fresh round entered the chamber, and get back on the trigger.
After the battle, (assuming you survive) you can complain to the
QM (Ord.) about defective MilSpec ammo. :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm not suggesting that cantaloupes, etc. don't make great recreational
  targets.  I'm just saying that people, in general, do not react like
  fruit when they're hit by small arms fire."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:53:59 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

> "Important worlds" in the Spinward Marches, ca. 1100
> (Importance measured by:
>         population
>         tech level
>         starport
>         naval base presence
>         capital world
>         rich
>         industrial)
>
> 14: Trin          3235 A894A96-F  A Hi In Cp           101 Im M0 V
> 13: Mora          3124 AA99AC7-F  A Hi In Cx           112 Im M4 V
> 13: Glisten       2036 A000986-F  A Hi Na In As Cp     821 Im K9 V
> 11: Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im M0 V M4 D
> 11: Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F  A Hi Cp              810 Im M2 VI

Commercially, Glisten may be the busiest system in the Marches.  Under
the trade rules used in MT and later, its trade codes give it basically
the maximum possible bonuses as a source of cheap, high-tech goods.  In
addition, since it's an asteroid belt, the time to maneuver in normal
space will be cut way, way down too.  It'd be a great base for players.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 04:10:30 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system (was: Warrant of Restoration)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> Date sent:              Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:17:39 -0500
> From:                   steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>
> > As far as actual written laws go, I think the Romano-German
> tradition
> > found in England, France, Germany, etc., is appropriate, where the
> laws
> > are often brief and in general language, and the courts are not
> bound by
> > precedent (Stare Decisis), as they are in the US (at least on
> paper).
> > That gives a court freedom to decide the same situation differently
> in
> > different cases.
>
> Uhmm, the US legal system is almost entirely based on the English
> Common
> Law system (to the extent where decisions in one are obiter <sp> in
> the other).
> I think what you are referring to is the Civil Code systems prevelant
> on the
> continent.

Yes.  But why throw England in with the other European
countries?Because, as I mentioned at least briefly in another post,
England
has moved away from its own Common law traditions.  Since the 60s,
it is not bound by precedent.  And some of the EU treaties and laws
have significantly changed the operation of English law.  While it
may not be immediately visible, it is changing.

At least in most legal academic literature, the "Civil" code systems and
the
"Romano-Germanic" system are synonomous.  I have no idea why some people

use one term or the other, but in non-American literature,
"Romano-Germanic"
seems to be more prevalent in my experience.  Apologies for any
confusion.

If this seems at all odd, let me briefly explain.  The "Civil" code
systems are so
called because they are based, at least philosophically on the code of
laws
compiled by, or under the rule of, Justinian.  Commonly referred to as
the
Justinian Code, the actual title is something like the Codex Civilus
something,
etc, (actual title escapes me).  Thus, the Roman part of
Romano-Germanic.
The Germanic part I've let slip out the ol' kettle.

> IMTU I've always assumed that the Imperial legal system is an
> inquisitorial Civil Code system rather than an adversorial Common Law
> system
> (eg the US, England and most of the Commonwealth). IMTU you have
> Imperial
> tribunals (3 to 5 judges) which decide both law and fact.

I agree almost completely.  IMHO, adversarial representation is not
mutuallyexclusive of Civil code and/or Inquisitorial systems.  At one
time or another,
you can find different combinations of these factors throughout history,

and some still present today.   Russia is an example that comes to mind
with
a hybrid adversarial/inquisitorial system for crimes.  Also, some Common

law courts are not adversarial, and this practice has been growing,
albeit
not yet in significant measures, though not criminal courts.

IMHO, what defines the Civil Code is the attempt to fully legistlate for
all
circumstances with comprehensive codes, and the freedom from predecedent

to decide each case independently, even if factually identical.
Conversely,
the keystone of the Common Law is that judges may find the law through
the case.  But once found, they must adhere to it.  Common Law generally

refers to "judge-made" law and in legal parlance, we speak of courts
filling
gaps the legistlature left in its laws.  More succinctly, common law
courts
will make a law where there isn't one, and civil code courts will
interpret
what laws they have to cover any situation they encounter.

Who is the trier of fact or the trier of law can be changed in either
system
without destroying the inherent distinctions.  So too with adversarial
or
inquisitorial criminal justice.  These are merely different methods to
implement whatever philosophical approach is desired.

> IMTU law theoretically derives from the Moot not the Emperor (a Sylean

> holdover), but the Emperor as President of the Moot is the instrument
> of the law
> and as such the legal system runs down parallel to the Nobility,

I'll have to check the Warrant of Restoration, but I think this hair
splitting isunnecessary.  IIRC, the Emperor's the law maker, Moot or no
Moot.
I guess the Moot is moot.   :-P

> every Imperial
> noble is in theory a judge, but in practice they delegate their
> authority to a
> trained court.

I concur with my learned brother.

> All but the most minor cases are heard in County court in the first
> instance (most Barons and Marquis do not have courts, but do
> occassionally
> hear minor cases; sort of like current JP's).

Again I agree, wrt Barons, but I call it Imperial Distric Court and
there is at least oneper system.

> An appeal to a Ducal court is
> usually automatic, with further appeals being by leave only (requiring
> a serious
> point of law or fact).

I have a Subsector Court of Appeals, and then appeal by leave as you
have it.

> Aquitals can only be appealed on the grounds of purjury.

I don't limit the possible remedy.  IMO, a Duke, etc., can completely
dismiss,
vacate, reverse, remand or alter the remedy of any case appealed to him.

So, you might risk a worse result by appealing.  However, Dukes would
very rarely be interested enough to make so radical a departure from the

court's judgment.

I allow nobles to reach down and take a case out of the court system
and decide it themselves if necessary.  Here's the scenario I see,
for dramatic purposes at least.  Joe Wildman kills Tom Softskull with
a lucky shot in a bar brawl.  He is tried and sentenced to death.
Duke Whatshisname hears about this just in time to stop the
execution.  The Duke steps in, declares that Joe is needed for
services to the Duke and the Imperium, and lifts the sentence.
Of course, if Joe gets out of line, the Duke can reinstate the
sentence and carry out the punishment immediately.

[snip the rest]

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, dragging it back to traveller

 
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Finally, if you don't like living in Sweden, don't. While socialist is a
> filthy word in modern American conservative politics, there are many
> places on the planet where they don't regard the amassing of capital as
> the sole important goal in life. It boggles capitalists minds when the
> run into people from places like Sweden or Denmark where there is a very
> strong community nurturing ethos, where the fortunate are obligated to
> care for the less fortunate. 
> 
> The prevailing conservative thought in US politics is "I got _mine_
> Jack! Sod off! Sink or swim. Dog eat dog. If you can't swim with the
> sharks, get out of the pool." This is as abhorrent to their way of
> thinking as their state socialism is to you. But think, they have a
> higher literacy rate, lower crime rate, lower infant mortality rate,
> higher per capita income than the US.

	I agree with everything else you said, and the literacy, crime, 
and infant mortality stats are all correct, but I have to quibble with 
the statement about income.  I can't help it, I'm an economist and that 
makes me a little compulsive :-)

Real GDP per capita (current international prices)
Rank	Country				Real GDP/capita 1992	Percentile
1       United States of America           23220.0               100.0
2       Switzerland                        21631.0                93.2
3       Luxembourg                         21144.0                91.1
4       Hong Kong                          21034.0                90.6
5       Canada                             20970.0                90.3
6       Germany, West                      20197.0                87.0
7       Japan                              19920.0                85.8
8       Denmark                            18730.0                80.7
9       Australia                          18500.0                79.7
10      Sweden                             18387.0                79.2
11      France                             18232.0                78.5
12      Belgium                            18091.0                77.9
13      Netherlands                        17373.0                74.8
14      Norway                             17094.0                73.6
15      Austria                            16989.0                73.2
16      Singapore                          16736.0                72.1
17      Italy                              16724.0                72.0
18      Iceland                            16324.0                70.3
19      United Kingdom                     16302.0                70.2
20      Finland                            15619.0                67.3

	Not only does the US have wider extremes of wealth than any other 
advanced nation, it also has higher _average_ wealth than any other 
nation.  Of course, if you take out Switzerland, Luxembourg, and Hong 
Kong which don't really count, then Canada is second to the U.S. and some 
people might find that they have struck a better balance than we 
Americans have.

	What does this have to do with Trav?  I have no idea ;-)	
 
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> <Apostasy warning>
> A recent bit of support for this: During the Reagan era war on taxes,
> charitable donations went up in almost direct ratio to tax cuts. 
> Of course, gov't tax revenues went up as well (people made a lot
> more money, a slightly lesser percent tax on a lot more money
> equals higher tax revenue after a tax cut).

	Again, as a professional economist, I have to differ.  The 80s 
economic boom had far more to do with falling oil prices, the taming of 
inflation, and massive economic stimulus in the form of deficit 
spending than any tax cut.  Reagan had nothing to do with the first, 
actually made the second far more difficult, and was very much 
responsible for the third even though it was nothing more than 
Keynesianism which he professed to despise.  
	BTW, we currently spend more money just covering the *interest* 
on the national debt than we do on the military.  If we hadn't spent all 
that money in the 80s, imagine the tax break we could have *now*.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:15:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>No, the melting point of gun barrel steel is over a thousand degrees
>Centigrade.  I'm not sure *exactly* what it is, but I used to work in a
>foundry making cast bronze, which melts around 1800 Farenheit, and we used
>steel tools to skimm the dross off the molten bronze.  They didn't melt
>unless you held them into the bottom of the 'pot'.  The barrel will lose
>its temper maybe, but it won't melt.


Totally pedantic point here, but IIRC centigrade only runs between 0 and
100 deg. Celcius runs from -273 upwards.

Interesting information on the steel though.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1998 19:44 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Commerce Questions

I know someone's already done this... point me to the article!

Where is a cost-benefits analysis done for long-haul trade?  I 
want to see what sizes of ships are profitable at what ranges, 
with what size jump engines and what size cargoes yielding what 
value-per-ton...

Exhaustive or exhausting, but someone's done at least some of this,
yes?  Please mail it to me or point me to it!  Thank you!

For that matter, are there articles on short-haul trade profitability
too??

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:49:54 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Possible subject for trav-chat

Chauncey Smith wrote in response to Bill Prankard --

>Isn't Siirka the Vlanii word for star... like Zaru Siirka... is 
>something
>Like the grand empire of the stars?

Yep!  Except it's sirka, not siirka; "stars".  Ziru Sirka, "the managed stars;
stars with comprehensive managerial oversight".

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 1998 19:49 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Defense Questions

I know y'all have talked about this; now I'd like to know
about it... anyone point me to articles or summaries?

Planetary Defense

Besides COACC, what prevents invading fleets from taking a
planet?  Could someone explain to me a deep meson site?  Does
anyone have stats for such a site?

Battle Carriers

Why o why do battle carriers hold riders within their hull
instead of grappling them onto the outside?  Does this have
to do with the Lanthanum Grid?  Is the Lanthanum Grid well
defended as a true rule?

Here's the point: Lurenti/Nolikian battle groups rely on
hangars rather than exterior grapples for jump travel.  Why?

Really Really Big Ships

What's the biggest useful ship the Imperium would want to
produce... and why?  (This is probably only opinion-polling).
Is the Tigress as big as the 3I needs?  They wouldn't care
for a billion-ton ship, would they?

Thanks for your help.

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:22:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along

John Macpherson wrote:
> 
>         I agree with everything else you said, and the literacy, crime,
> and infant mortality stats are all correct, but I have to quibble with
> the statement about income.  I can't help it, I'm an economist and that
> makes me a little compulsive :-)

Thanks for the correction...as soon as I sent it, I had second thoughts
about those numbers...

But, I'd like to play devils advocate here a bit.

A major component of those societies is also a high degree of importance
being placed on conformance to the group. Much like Japan, those who
stick out, tend to be viewed as nails to pound in not leaders to
emulate. This is another thing that makes many people, particularly
Americans quite uncomfortable in these societies. (and vice versa)

This makes them much more like a dominant cultural component in the 3I,
particularly the Core area..those Vilani all over the place. 

We really have to understand what the effects of such a long-lived
culture of absolute conformity would have on the trillions of beings in
the old Ziru Sirka. Even though Solomani 'Yanks in spaaaaaccceee' have
gone through the old system, much like the Meiji restoration in Japan,
where Western culture swept through what was essentially medival Japan
of the Shogunate, there was still an essential charater to the culture
that remains to this day that was not changed a whole lot.

I see the collision of the Vilani and Solomani much the same way...some
solomani ways would have swept through the Ziru Sirka displacing the old
ways, and much would have swept _over_ it as water over a rock. It may
slowly wear the rock down, but it will take a very long time.

So...bearing this in mind...what _is_ the kind of societal mindset of
the 3I in this regard? Much of the canon material suffers heavily, as
various furriners ;-) are wont to point out, very biased towards 'Yanks
in Space'. Given that the dominant culture of the 3I is heavily Vilani,
the basic societal outlook will be colored very much by entrenched
Vilani culture. You don't wipe out 5000 years of history with one series
of wars, fought mostly on the fronteirs until the very end, and a mere
1600 year long interregnum.

Here, however, I'm woefully ignorant of canon as I don't have either the
Vilani Alien Module or the semi-mythical Vilani and Vargr DGP
publication.

Comments? Flames?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:30:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fall Travel Planner 

> At 04:10 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Nobody in their right *minds* would want to go through Core.  What's wrong 
> >with going to Reavers' Deep instead?
> 
> Reavers' Deep is *so* late-1000s.  Nothing but tacky little tourist stops
> with faux-Aslan cusine.

Hockey puck.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> >Subject: re: Military Service
> ...
> >Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
> >navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
> >at times, depending on the local government type and the current
> >situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
> >half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
> >might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
> >be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
> >same level as Desertion?

All four rule sets seem to be pretty clear on the matter. ["A character
becomes subject to the draft if 1) If he fails to pass every
enlistment roll, 2) if his enlistment roll is ever a 12 exactly, 3) he
volonteers for the draft."  Marc Miller's Traveller, p21]

>   Considering how much (a very great deal) Traveller warships cost per
> crewmember required (at least in CT/HG) it seems extremely unlikely that
> conscription would be necessary in the 3I or most of its contemporaries.
> The same would likely apply to almost every conceivable Imperial service,
> with the possible exception of the Army which would depend on how you see
> their labour pool being raised.

The Gazelle class close escort write up from CT details that the ship
layout was set up for conscripted enlisted personnel.

I apologize for the brevity of my reply.  I'm on the road (in Washington
D.C. today), connecting with a PowerBook 540 (not to shabby, for a mac)  
over a PPP connection to work, telneting to my ISP, and back on PINE to
read my mail.  (and they are piling up fast! ;^)

douglas


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:40:28 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Avalon Hill

   Good news from the Hasbro take over of Avalon Hill...

>Return-Path: <consumer_support@hasbro.com>
>From: Consumer Affairs <consumer_support@hasbro.com>
>To: "'Harold D. Hale'" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
>Subject: RE: Feedback via Talk to Us
>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:37:48 -0400
>
>Thank you for contacting us.  Hasbro has entered into an agreement with
>Avalon Hill to purchase their game division, which includes Avalon Hill Game
>Co., Avalon Hill software and Victory Games.  The deal is expected to close
>during the fourth quarter and there are plans to continue the board game
>line.  We have no further information at this time.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:45:46 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com

>>I *was* going to stay out of this, but I couldn't. ;-)
>I, too, have been caught in a moment of weakness

   OK, I'm guilty too, maybe it's a conspiracy.  :-)

>>if one has the bad taste to get a serious, long-lasting, incapacitating
>illness
>Yes, we too in Ireland beleive that if you get sick, the state should be
>there to support you rather than let you die on a curbside somewhere.

   While you can cite the *extremely* rare case where someone has fallen
through the cracks, *everyone* in the US that needs healthcare, gets it.
Part of the costs are picked up by the State (in the form of Medicare),
part by individuals, and part by private health care providers who pass on
their additional costs to insurance companies (who in turn pass the costs
on to their subscribers). 

>>If you can't find work, the State won't let you starve either. Sure, 
>>some people take advantage of this, but the alternative is either 
>>heniously complex or else uncaring.
>
>The free education, including College, doesn't hurt either.

   In the US, no one goes hungry unless they do so out of choice.  There
are simply too many government and private charitable organizations for
anyone to have an excuse.

   College is not free, but 2 year community colleges provide low cost
education to anyone who graduates high school or obtains a GED (an
equivalent diploma earned usually through night classes).

>>Um, no. I believe I'm part of the upper middle class, and I make a very
>>nice living thank you.
>
>What I noticed when visiting Sweden is that although the taxes made the
>goods about twice as expensive, the average salaries were much higher as
>well. (If only Ireland would catch on to the latter half!)

   Sales taxes in the US run between 4.5 to 8 percent.  Salaries vary
generally according to cost of living, which tends to be higher on both
coasts.

   Comfort is relative.  While our Swedish friend here believes he lives
well, one wonders how much better (or maybe worse) he could live in the
American system.

>>This is not to say that the Swedish system is perfect, because it *isn't*,
>
>Neither is the Irish by a long shot. They waste _so_ much money.

   Which in the US is why many people don't trust the government to handle
everything.  They figure you are better off "paying as you go" for the most
part.

>It is hard to build a good socialist country. It requires people with more
>of a mind for others than themselves. Idealists. Captialism is founded on
>indifference to your fellow man, and self promotion. Much more common
>traits in society.

   In the *ideal* capitalist system, everyone is paid what they are worth,
businesses charge a fair price, and if they don't, their competitors do and
the bad companies go out of business.  It is an *economic* system, not
social system.  Capitalism can be tinkered with by government so that
resources are diverted to the government which allows government leaders to
perform social engineering, but nothing in Capitalism's structure takes
into account caring for the disadvantaged.

>>US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist robber baron capitalist
>>system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)

   Thank you for that ringing (?!) endorsement.

>I could argue, but I'd better not. :-)

   There is no perfect way to live but some ways are better than others.
Political extremism (Fascism, Communism, religious dicatorship) is
generally agreed to be the least favorable way to go, while moderate
democracy (elected government leadership for which all citizens have a
right to vote) is the preferred.  

   In any case, the preferred economic system is the one that works best
for the people.  Note that is not necessarily the most popular.  People
being what they are, the most popular would no doubt involve the delivery
of a certain amount of gold bars to your door each week....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #756
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 757



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along
Expanding starship software (long)
Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along
Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences (was Re: dragging it back to traveller)
Traveller and Families
Re: Traveller and Families
Off-World Investments
re: Traveller and Families
>Vilani Alien Module ?
Subversion and Internal conflict
Re: Military Service
Re: OT Politics
Imperial Defense Questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:02:24 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>John Macpherson wrote:
>> 
>>         I agree with everything else you said, and the literacy, crime,
>> and infant mortality stats are all correct, but I have to quibble with
>> the statement about income.  I can't help it, I'm an economist and that
>> makes me a little compulsive :-)
>
>Thanks for the correction...as soon as I sent it, I had second thoughts
>about those numbers...

As an aside, I don't find comparisons of GNP terribly illuminating or
explaining much in Traveller -- but then I'm more of a half-trained
anthropologist and not an economist, so that colors things.  What's more
helpful and personally interesting is to imagine and compare are a) wealth
distribution, b) social stratification, and c) standard of living.  Appending
indices of these to the UPP might be of more practical use to more refs and
players.  (With "standard of living", it's probably not necessary to point out
to this group that it's not really predictable from GNP/GDP, but that does
seem to be the popular assumption...)

>A major component of those societies is also a high degree of importance
>being placed on conformance to the group. Much like Japan, those who
>stick out, tend to be viewed as nails to pound in not leaders to
>emulate. This is another thing that makes many people, particularly
>Americans quite uncomfortable in these societies. (and vice versa)
>
>This makes them much more like a dominant cultural component in the 3I,
>particularly the Core area..those Vilani all over the place. 

No, no, no.  It's the _Aslan_ who are the Japanese.  Sheesh!  I thought
everyone knew that! ;)

>We really have to understand what the effects of such a long-lived
>culture of absolute conformity would have on the trillions of beings in
>the old Ziru Sirka. Even though Solomani 'Yanks in spaaaaaccceee' have
>gone through the old system, much like the Meiji restoration in Japan,
>where Western culture swept through what was essentially medival Japan
>of the Shogunate, there was still an essential charater to the culture
>that remains to this day that was not changed a whole lot.

Disclaimer: despite my name, I'm not Japanese.  That being said, I've
_personally_ seen considerable real cultural change in Japan, including in the
corporate workplace and in public attitudes towards politics, during just the
1980s and 1990s.  Also, many of the "enduring Japanese cultural traits" we
talk about abroad can convincingly attributed to relatively recent (post-
Meiji) political and historical forces.

Also, the Meiji Restoration is a poor comparison to the ZS/ROM transformation,
IMO.  If, say, a faction of the Vilani leadership had deposed the Ishimkarun
and reestablished traditional collegiate rule by the heads of the Bureaux, and
the Ziru Sirka then maintained political sovereignity through the ROM while
rapidly adopting "modernities" from the Terran Confederation, then I'd agree
<G>.  Occupation Japan in this century might be a slightly better example...
or much better yet, I think, the effects/experience of the BEIC takeover of
India and subsequent British rule.

>I see the collision of the Vilani and Solomani much the same way...some
>solomani ways would have swept through the Ziru Sirka displacing the old
>ways, and much would have swept _over_ it as water over a rock. It may
>slowly wear the rock down, but it will take a very long time.

"Hey, what a great idea, having one person make decisions!  Those Solomani are
something else.  Don't you think so, Eneri?"

"You bet, Sharik.  I think it's a swell idea, putting just one person in
charge to take responsibility.  Why don't I call up Inventory and see how they
feel about it?"

"Good thinking!  I'll go see if Marketing can come share their input about
that, and check if we can use the conference room."

>So...bearing this in mind...what _is_ the kind of societal mindset of
>the 3I in this regard? Much of the canon material suffers heavily, as
>various furriners ;-) are wont to point out, very biased towards 'Yanks
>in Space'. Given that the dominant culture of the 3I is heavily Vilani,
>the basic societal outlook will be colored very much by entrenched
>Vilani culture. You don't wipe out 5000 years of history with one series
>of wars, fought mostly on the fronteirs until the very end, and a mere
>1600 year long interregnum.

I see the 3I's elite culture (i.e., that of interstellar society) as being
more of a syncretistic beast: heavily Vilani-influenced in its approach to
bureaucratic and organizational methods, but heavily Solomani-influenced in
its policy orientations.  

The imperial nobility I also see as a fundamentally Solomani feature (non-
consultative, absolutist rule) inspired by a poorly-understood Vilani "noble
class" (maybe more like a patron/client system than a feudal one, which is how
the Terrans understood it). 

Whether or not you believe Vilani die-off due to microbial infections to have
been extensive (<slam lid on low berth full of worms>) ISTR considerable
canonical reference to large numbers of Vilani assimilating to Solomani
culture after the IWs.  Likewise, there seems to have been extensive intrusion
of Solomani settlement everywhere through the old Z.S., including in Vland
sector; I think contact & diffusion in the ROM and again in the 3I must have
been quite extensive.  

While at first I would have expected that during the ROM the majority the
upper strata of Vilani society would be among those assimilating (along with
members of the lower strata whose position was particulary disrupted by early
social/economic reforms of the ROM), there's also canonical mention of the
fact that the directorates of the big Vilani-based megacorporations are
"conservatively Vilani" and generally instill those old Vilani cultural values
in their employees.  My suggestion, to have our argu and eat it too, would be
to posit a period of "Vilani revivalism" sometime early on during the 3I, when
elites in a position to do so had strong reason (political and/or emotional)
to "reclaim their lost heritage" or "acknowledge their ancient traditions" or
however it might be phrased.  Thus, the late 3I "conservative Vilani culture"
is actually a recovery or recreation of aspects of a high civilization that
pretty much _did_ dissappear as such.  That is, ISTU (in such a Traveller
universe), the "high culture" of Vland really did disappear during the ROM
(surviving in museums, libraries, and fragmentarily on this or that world),
while the "popular culture" of Vland lived on and fused variably with the new
Solomani cultures.  (For example, take SemoFetus' post from last year about
"adushirga", Vilani charm bracelets.)

Someone more familiar with 3I history might be able to comment on this...

>Here, however, I'm woefully ignorant of canon as I don't have either the
>Vilani Alien Module or the semi-mythical Vilani and Vargr DGP
>publication.

Anyone who's interested in Vilani civ. might want to look in on the TravLang
list; Stephen Johnson and I have recently been debating kinship structures and
family dynamics... and no, Stephen, I'm not done with it yet <G>.  

Or maybe we should move the non-linguistic aspect of that discussion over
here?

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Expanding starship software (long)

Has anyone given any thought to what exactly the software on ships does?
Or what should be available?  What I have is very much specific to my
campaign, but it seems that this is an area that could use some attention.

ANTI-HIJACK
Anti-Hijack is used to augment shipboard security against possible hostile
takeover.  In its basic form it provides:
- - Access control to critical portions of the ship.  A basic installation
would consist of a keypad on critical areas requiring a PIN for access.
More advanced installations could consist of a card reader, hand- or
finger- print scanner, retina scanner, DNA scanner, voice or ultimately
optical recognition.
- - Pattern matching - comparing crew/passenger actions against hijack 
profiles.
- - Air pressure and movement sensors to detect unauthorized access.

In its more advanced forms, the following upgrades are available:
- - Addition of lethal and non-lethal defense systems to the interior of the
ship.
- - Automated release of lethal and non-lethal defensive measures when
specific threshholds are exceeded.
- - Addition of sophisticated data, optical and audio sensors around the
interior of the ship to increase the level of data acquired by the
software.
- - Remote, mobile units to increase the detection/response level.

GENERATE
'Generate' allows the astrogator to set up and execute Hyperspacial
Transitions (Jumps).  Stellar and planetary data is culled from the
Library Data package and used for the calculations.  Making a Jump in any
but the most controlled conditions is considered very hazardous, and to
this end most astrogators prefer to reduce as many additional variables as
possible.

The most basic Generate package allows for a Jump calculation for a direct
course from point A to point B.  Upgrades in the software allow for:
- - Running Jump - jump to hyperspace with a realspace vector.  Normally an
astrogator will plot a jump with a system neutral vector.
- - Running Exit - emerge from hyperspace with a realspace vector.  Normally
an astrogator will plot a jump to result in a system neutral vector.
- - Jump offsets - permits the astrogator to plot a realspace course that
would result in a Jump to one point, when in reality the Jumpgrid
activates in such a way as to provide a J-Vector to another point.  (i.e.
he leaves Mos Eisley on a apparent course for Dantooine, but actually
jumps to Yavin.)  If a scanner is directed at the starship at the time of
jump, it is possible to eventually - it's a formidable task for a
astrogator even with computer assistance - be able to determine the course
laid in.
- - Emergence offsets - normally the course of the jump is calculated, if
possible, to cross the path of the destination planet.  This is to allow
the gravity well of the target planet to precipitate the emergence at
approximately the 100 diameter point.  It is possible, however, to program
the jump to emerge at any point the astrogator desires, within the
capability of the J-drive.  This is considered to be a very challenging
task for an astrogator because of variances in the individual ship's jump
fields, as well as the minor errors in the library database, as well as
any errors introduced by the astrogator or pilot in the course of plotting
and executing the jump.
- - Coordinated Jumps - used when more than one ship will be jumping, and it
is desirous for all the ships to appear in a coordinated fashion.  Again,
because of individual variances in the jump fields, detailed information
must be passed between all of the ships in the squadron for the 'Generate'
programs to produce an effective jump-plan.  This can be a very dangerous
maneuver, and is generally only performed by military ships with a
task-optimized 'Generate' program.

GUNNERY
'Gunnery' - provides an interface between the ships computer and weaponry
systems.
In its most basic form, it provides the following functions:
- - Records the ships sensor, weapon status and telemetry (if any) into the
ships log into the ships log.
- - Interfaces the gunners workstation to the ships sensors, and provides
fire control solutions.
- - Provides basic threat assessment and target prioritization.
- - Requires the gunner to make target assignment and authorize weapon
release.

Additonally, the following features can be obtained to upgrade the gunnery
suite:
- - Anti-Missile - a specific upgrade that provides specific threat
assessment and allows the computer to override the gunners target
designation.  Allows designated ships weapons to be fired without operator
intervention.
- - Return Fire - a specific upgrade that allows the ships computer to
activate designated ships weapons and return fire on hostile ships,
without operator intervention.
- - Gunner Interact - a specific upgrade that allows the gunner to override
the fire control solutions provided by the ships computer.  This allows
the gunners experience and intuition to enable him to increase the
probability of hitting his target and causing damage.
- - Predict - a series of specific upgrades that add increasingly
sophisticated algorithms to the Fire Control routines.  The end effect is
that the system is better able to predict the reactions of the opposing
ship and target the weapons accordingly.  IMTU, this is a progressive DM
(i.e. +0 the first combat round, +1 the second, +2 the third - to the
maximum Predict level available.), rather than a constant assigned.  A
spectacular failure in Gunnery will cause this DM to be reset to 0.

MANEUVER
'Maneuver' provides the Pilot with an interface with the ships computer,
allowing him to offload many routine maneuvers.  Even in its most basic
forms, is one of the more versatile software packages available to the
starship pilot.  (Note: many of these functions can and are performed by 
qualified pilots.  These functions merely relieve some of the standard
tasks a pilot performs to allow him to concentrate on other functions he 
may have to perform.)  It has the following functions:
- - 'Establish Orbit' - moves you from a point in space to a designated
planet and establishes a Imperial Standard orbit.  Also used to return to
a Standard Imperial orbit from either a downport or highport.
- - 'Land' - takes you from an Imperial Standard orbit to land at the
designated spaceport (requires either active sensors or a direct
communications link with an ATC computer.)  Note - local gravity must be
less than the rated output of your M-Drive (the software does not allow
for overdriving the M-drive.)  This function is not designed for 'Wild'
(non-spaceport) landings, although it will take a ship down to a 'soft'
(i.e. water) landing quite well.
- - 'Dock' - computes and executes the maneuvers necessary to dock with a
designated space platform or craft (requires either active sensors or a
direct communications link with an ATC computer.)
- - 'Go There'  - the pilot picks a point or planet from the system display,
and the software computes and executes the necessary maneuvers to reach
those coordinates.  When the 'Generate' package is running, the Maneuver
series integrates the resulting calculation into the 'Go There' function
and executes it.

There are also the following advanced features, available as add-ons that
can be purchased separately:
- - Advanced Landing - this is a specific upgrade to the Maneuver package
that allows the computer to interface with the ships sensors and any
stored data regarding terrain to ealuate, select and perform a 'wild'
landing (outside of a starport.)  Requires active radar/ladar in order to
be successful.
- - 'Evade' - A specific series of upgrades to the software package.  Evade
permits the pilot to override specific safety functions in the 'Maneuver'
software (such as closest permissible approach, drive ratings, max
atmospheric speed, hull stress warnings, etc...)

I generally provide 'basic' packages to the players - if they want access
to more advanced features they need to either 'upgrade' or write
additional features into their own software.

- --------------------------------------------
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                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
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- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:24:21 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along

What do people expect-Marc Miller is a American....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:25:04 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences (was Re: dragging it back to traveller)

>
>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:22:36 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: dragging it back to traveller, meandering along
>
...
>So...bearing this in mind...what _is_ the kind of societal mindset of
>the 3I in this regard? Much of the canon material suffers heavily, as
>various furriners ;-) are wont to point out, very biased towards 'Yanks
>in Space'. Given that the dominant culture of the 3I is heavily Vilani,
>the basic societal outlook will be colored very much by entrenched
>Vilani culture. You don't wipe out 5000 years of history with one series
>of wars, fought mostly on the fronteirs until the very end, and a mere
>1600 year long interregnum.
>

Being one of "them Yanks", my point of view is naturally suspect; however,

I figure that it was the Vilani cultural mindset among the masses, whether
Vilani-descended or not, and the resulting tendency to stay at home and do
what was expected of one, that led to the creation of a class of
"Travellers".  It became the role of these social misfits to undertake all
the dangerous, unpredictable, and individualistic tasks on the margins that
keep an interstellar society running smoothly, so that the rest of society
could get on with the really important work.  Occassionally, one of these
"adventurers" makes a pile of money - then society pushes them off to the
margin again, this time with the "nobles" and other trouble-makers.  Most
of these "Travellers" don't survive long enough to breed, however (show of
hands:  how many of your characters, regardless of their ages, have *ever*
been married or had children? PE characters don't count), so in the long
run they are not a problem.

I also rather like Frederick Jackson Turner, so what can you say?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:45:47 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Traveller and Families

Here's a Traveller chat topic for you:

What kind of family life do Traveller characters typically have?  Take, for
instance, the difference between a subsidized merchant and a free trader.
The reaction I usually get to the merchant is, "What, be tied down to a
specified route?  Where's the adventure in that?"  But consider:  the
merchant can have a home and a family on one of the worlds on his route,
and still expect to see them once in a while.  Most free traders I know
leave their notional "homeworlds", never to return.  Does everyone wait
into their 50's (anagathics or no) to retire and have a family?

The military, up until very late this century, has been a single man's
game.  Only senior officers ("Lieutenants may not marry, captains may
marry,...") and *very* senior NCO's were allowed to have families.
Presumably, the Imperial armed forces work on this basis, but what if you
character is one of those senior officers?  "...majors should marry,
colonels must marry."

This becomes even more interesting for GURPS Traveller campaigns.  GURPS
character generation uses the concept of "disadvantages", including
Dependents.  Now, for essentially the first time, we have to ask, "What
happens when Free Trader Captain Nicole Fearless brings along her husband
the artist and the kids?"

Food for thought, I hope.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:36:57 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller and Families

well, 

in my last traveller game we had as a ship a Beowulf-class free trader (the
"Easy Money") where the owner-operator had along her family, both of her two
daughters (both of who where PCs).  her husband was dead and both of her
daughters wanted to follow moms footsteps, so to speak.  

now Kat's home world was a very interesting world where marriage was more
along the lines of three women to one man kind of thing due to the fact the
population was seven females to every male.  so lot's of the planets female
population would leave the planet looking for a suitable husband material and
bring them back (plus there was the HUGE blackmarket where unmarried males
where brought in as "labour" only to get their visa's and passports
confiscated by their bosses and used as "Indentured Husbands"- now this is a
really cool adventure if any of you want the info on it)....

any how, Kat's two daughters spent most of their time as the ships techs,
ships steward, and what ever else they where needed for at any given time (no,
not that- well, unless they where in the mood and you where cute)...  

so a free merchant could actually take their families with them on their ship
if they make the room. so one passenger stateroom gets turned into your family
apartment big deal, think of all the plot hooks and adventure ideas your GM
and think up that deals with your family!!! (uh oh.. i see a robot screaming
"Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" runing around with lights flashing on this
note...  oh well its a cool effect).

as for other PC types, the Noble has the money and resources (and possibly the
lands 'Back Home' to keep up a nice house with the picket fence, the
chambermaids in the skimpy outfits, the perfect bodysculpted wife (who is
spending your adventure moeny and sleeping with the pool boy, the
chambermaids, the postman, ect), the kids, hte pets, ect...  

the military in my setting also have what is refered to as family ships.  they
are huge (larger than even the largest colony ships) and used to transport
military personnel families.  of course these ships travel in packs (or Home
Fleets) along with resort ships, agriculture ships, prison ships, ect. with
some escort vessels as well...   this allows military families to stay close
together. but in times of war, these ships are ported in civilian ports and
sit out the duration of the war. 

other careers can have families as well, you just have to be inventive with
them... 

hope that gives you some ideas for some games...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:49:20 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Off-World Investments

John MacPherson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It has worked the other way around though.  When Third World 
countries went through that wave of nationalizations in the 60s they 
often found that once they had seized the telephone exchange, mine, oil 
fields, whatever, that they didn't know how to run them properly and had 
to ask the company that they'd seized them from to come back in and run 
them again.  This sort of thing isn't likely to happen in the Imperium 
since the rights of off-world investors are likely protected.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah - the rights of off-world investors are protected. Usually by
mercenary companies. <g>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 02:39:40 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Traveller and Families

Christopher Thrash wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
and still expect to see them once in a while.  Most free traders I know
leave their notional "homeworlds", never to return.  Does everyone wait
into their 50's (anagathics or no) to retire and have a family?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, every anagathic found so far causes sterility as a side-effect.

People are used to it, they think of it as one of the prices one pays
for immortality. The social balancing effect is also beneficial - Fred
may live 1000 years, but he won't have 1000 kids. "Immortals" become
disconnected from society a bit, what with not being able to have
children and all, but that disconnection is also seen as a price of
immortality. Without these perceived prices, those who could not
afford immortality would eventually resent and perhaps even destroy
those who could.

IMTU there isn't even any (public) research going on to find out why
anagathics cause sterility or how sterility can be prevented.

Other possible side-effects of Anagathics IMTU:

1. Interference with normal development. Not usually a problem with
adults, but children should never be exposed to anagathics. The effects
would be unpredictable at best. The Troglodyte lost colony mentioned
in the Leviathan adventure had some racial oddities IMTU caused by 
exposure of the young to low levels of natural anagathics in their 
environment.

2. Changes in physical appearance. Many users of anagathics will
experience loss of hair color (or hair), changes in complexion, etc.
Many of these are related to the aging process - the user will take on
some appearances of aging, often faster than they would have without
the drug, while otherwise retaining youthful capabilities. These
changes in appearance serve to indicate (to most people) that the
person in question is a user of anagathics, though many can be
disguised. The mix of youthful appearance and aged appearance on
the same individual is quite disconcerting to many people - imagine
realizing that the twenty-something you're talking to has ancient 
wrinkles around their eyes, like their smooth cheeks were a mask.

3. Health risks. Some people's bodies develop a tolerance for
whatever anagathic the person is using, forcing them to try a different
variety - and they may suffer some unusual aging between losing
the orginal anagathic effect and building up a new one.
Some people develop allergies or other environmental sensitivities,
probably because their body systems are made abnormal by the drug.
Some medical procedures may become more complex as well,
perhaps leading to a medical specialty in treating "Immortals".

4. Psychological risks. Memory overload? Gradual erosion over
centuries of one's sense of self? Resistance of brain tissue to
anagathic effects? Some unnoticed psychological effect of the
anagathic drugs themselves?
Regardless of the reason, many long-term anagathics users show
eccentric behaviour, and they have a sligthly higher incidence of
mental disorders. 



Just some concepts used IMTU, on the one or two times we
mentioned anagathics at all...dying of old age was seldom a problem
players worried about IMTU...  <g>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:30:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: >Vilani Alien Module ?

>Here, however, I'm woefully ignorant of canon as I don't have either the
>Vilani Alien Module 
...

  I'm pretty sure there wasn't one in Classic.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:52:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Subversion and Internal conflict

>From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.
...
>>Nor 
>>should we forget that the greatest threat faced by any democracy is 
>>from its own military, far more democracies have persished on the 
>>bayonets of their own army than have ever fallen under the boots of 
>>an invader.
>>
>
>And I have to disagree here, too.  

  Given the historical record it appears that the original posters'
assertion is factually correct. An exception would require the definition
of most of the post-colonial Latin American republics as being non-valid
for the discussion of democracies, but such should be stated clearly.

  Actually, even then it might be tricky, as the number of democratic
regimes to fall (at least for any length of time) to external force
is very small (OC, so is the number of non-democratic...). OTOH, non-
democratic regimes are notoriously harder to remove from power by
internal efforts without the participation of the military, which is
of course almost always involved with said authoritarian regime, which
should tell us something right there.

  FWIW, fron the POV of many of its' members, isn't the 3I a military state?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:29:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Military Service

...
>I have to say one thing here, as a Marine (Semper Fi), the left is always
>getting dupes like Jens to spout their side of the argument, without saying
>both sides of it...  I just wonder if she knows that in 'Nam the agressors
>were not the USA, but the Left?  I wonder if she knows that in Europe,
>Russia invaded nations & we, the USA, stood aside because we had an
>agreement...

  I think you might consider that Jen/Jens is almost certainly a masculine
name in Swedish, AFAIK: I really doubt that the Swedes draft females :)

  I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the Vietnamese are
native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or Canucks. 
For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me privately.

  (Once upon a time a Vietnamese immigrant [father left VN for health
reasons, having been an ARVN officer] asked me whether I felt guilty
about the treatment of NorAm aboriginals by the Canadian gov't. He was
somewhat surprised when I gave a qualified yes followed by an inquiry
as to the highwater mark of the medieval Vietnamese Empire and the
extent to which other Indochinese peoples had been subjugated by those
conquests). 

>I would also like to say as a jew, that the Swiss banks still hold Nazi
>Wealth that was taken from the jews & the Sweds knew all about what was
>going on in the camps & stood by, so they are not, & were never neutral in
>WWII...  They choice to side with the Nazis in a minor way, they are as
>guilty as the Nazis ever were...

  I'm going to take a wild swing at this flamebait, but didn't WW II in
Europe, and the operations of the einsatzgruppen outside Greater Germany,
begin prior to December 1941?

  BTW, wasn't there some fellow, name of Wallenberg...?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:48:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: OT Politics

...
>One thing missing in the current form of capitalism practiced in the US
>is the social responsibility aspect. I think that as we have seen the
...
>who benefit from government aid adding to the discontent by claiming
>their gov't assistance as an entitlement.

  As something of a social conservative (no Comrades, not the purge!) I
tend to agree; luckily the 3I restricts itself to providing the public
good of security, both internal and external (maintaining command
channels and enforcing their mandate not being counted as separate
responsibilities - i.e., the X-boats & IISS are at least nominally
there to serve the Empires' needs, and not because they would be neat
services for its' inhabitants)

...
>(btw: the first paragraph of ObTrav is based on USgov't economic reform
>programs of the 1930's great depression, which according to some
>views were so mismanaged that they made the problem worse, 
>before being abandoned.)

  To be fair, all of the Western gov'ts (Nazi Germany not being included
in the political West in this case, not surprisingly) dropped the ball
pretty badly on that one, at least initially.

  Re the part about distrusting the central gov't: you can certainly
connect that to the Vilani cultural region going turtle during the
Rebellion.

  FWIW, how well would intact Vilani social groups (with a drastically
curtailed economy, admittedly) have recovered from Virus*? I don't recall
having seen anything on the subject. 

  * asides from requiring all future `droid production to be fitted
with restraining bolts :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:07:32 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Imperial Defense Questions

> Date: 21 Aug 1998 19:49 EDT
> From: "Robert Eaglestone"
> Subject: Imperial Defense Questions
>
> I know y'all have talked about this; now I'd like to know
> about it... anyone point me to articles or summaries?
>
> Planetary Defense
>
> Besides COACC, what prevents invading fleets from taking a
> planet?  Could someone explain to me a deep meson site?  Does
> anyone have stats for such a site?
>
Once an invading force has dealt with SDBs, etc. planetary defences must
be broached.COACC looks after everything closer than geosynchronous
orbit, or thereabouts. Besides aerospace craft, COACC also runs
antispacecraft defenses that are ground-based. At sufficiently high tech
levels, buried (deep) meson guns are used because they're harder to find
and destroy and do a lot of damage....
In the current incarnation of Fire, Fusion and Steel, deep meson sites
are spherical gun carriages lined with contragrav modules to permit the
gun to point in the required direction, with power and control
facilities in an adjacent cavern, linked to surface sensors.
Roughly, each metre of meson tunnel (gun) length = 1000km of range.
The gun carriage's diameter is 20% longer than the meson gun.
You need an accumulator bank to quickly charge the gun, and a power
plant to run the accumulator and the carriage.
There are some sample designs on trav-tech@qrc.com - retrieve one of the
lists (v1.n209 or thereabouts).

> Battle Carriers
>
> Why o why do battle carriers hold riders within their hull
> instead of grappling them onto the outside?  Does this have
> to do with the Lanthanum Grid?  Is the Lanthanum Grid well
> defended as a true rule?
>
There could be a benefit in that your subordinate craft are protected by
the mother ship's armour. Externally mounted space craft are easier to
launch than hangar based ones (although the fastest way to get ride of
your ships is through launch tubes, if space permits).Essentially, it's
up to the architect.
Separate area has been allocated to the jump grid (which I assume to be
a fine tracery running all over the hull, so it's not easy to defend,
but also difficult to significantly damage).

> Here's the point: Lurenti/Nolikian battle groups rely on
> hangars rather than exterior grapples for jump travel.  Why?
>
Cultural bias. The jump field extends over externally mounted ships, so
there's no technical reason per se (unless Lurenti drive tech isn't up
to scratch).

> Really Really Big Ships
>
> What's the biggest useful ship the Imperium would want to
> produce... and why?  (This is probably only opinion-polling).
> Is the Tigress as big as the 3I needs?  They wouldn't care
> for a billion-ton ship, would they?
>
The Tigress dreadnaught is a huge (500000 displacement ton) ship, and
hugely expensive (453389.2 MCr).
Cost is the primary constraint. The ease of detecting such large ships
is another important factor to consider. Has someone looked at
risk/benefit (investment vs. survival) for vessels of this size ?
Terraforming or colony ships might get bigger, but they're virtually
custom vessels.
A billion displacement ton ship? - that's a sphere just under three
kilometres in diameter.  The city-wreckers from 'Independence Day'
(yecch) may be about the right size.
Psychologically intimidating, at least.
But then again, it would be cheaper to fake it eg. Cordwainer Smith's
"Golden the Ship Was-Oh ! Oh ! Oh !"

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:00:42 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:49:11 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:49:06 -0700
>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
>
>Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:
>
>> Japan was on the verge of
>> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
>> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended in
>> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
>> because of this.
>
>This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second bomb!
>When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup attempt
>to force the war to continue.
>
>People are still having medical problems?  Tough.  They started it.  We
>finished it.  I learned a very long time ago that if you start a fight you
>better be ready to accept the consequences.  The Japanese committed
>atrocities on the Chinese, captured prisoners, Koreans.. anyone who got in
>their way.  There is no evidence they were ready to surrender until we
>demostrated the ability and will to devastate entire cities from a single
>plane.

It's easy to second guess the people on the ground at the time. Why should the
US have expended one more US or US Allied life to save a Japanese life? Mr.
Rydholm can be as pacifistic as he wants, but *he* wasn't one of the PBI (and
Marines!) who were *going* to be casualties in Downfall. *ANYTHING* that saved
allied lives was justified. Sod the Japs ... and their continual whining about
how unfair it all was. Berry is right, *they* chose to go to war, shaft the
consequences of the actions needed to end it home to *them*.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #757
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 758



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Weapons expert needed
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question
Re: Imperial Defense Questions
Re: Avalon Hill
Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches
Military lovers/haters (long, sorry)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 02:55:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 8/19/98 17:40:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:
>
> << >3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
>  >cooking off?
>  
>  A few hundred degrees Celsius IIRC, though this depends on how long they
>  are exposed to the heat, as it has to penetrate the shell casing.
>   >>
>  Wouldn't the heat required to cause a cook-off, have already plasticized the
> barrel? (I.e. make it extremely soft and deformed?)

Nope!

Iron and steel don't get appreciably plastic until noticeably *above*
"dull red" heat. Which is above the melting point of lead and near the
melting point of aluminum. I pick those metals because we had all three
being worked with the same forge. Casting for lead and aluminum, and
forging for iron and steel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:00:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In mail you write:

>>We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
>>the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
>>just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
>>at me. 
> ...
>>But like I said, that was one *scary* quarter hour.
>
>   Now wouldn't that be a real pain in the middle of a firefight?
> Hmm, duck, and try to clear jam without losing part of your less
> favourite hand?

Now you know why the DIs emphasize keeping your rifle (*not* "gun"!)
clean! 

Our best guess as to *how* that grit got there is that the stripper
clip we loaded the rifle from had been in my friend's pocket *without*
the paper wrapping they come in. And it picked up the grit from there. 

I'm making it a point to *not* unwrap the strippers until use!

Alas, the cheap SKS ammo is steel cratridges, so it's not reloadable.
We still pick the casing up to clean the area, but that's just being
good woodsmen. (I also pick up the 22 brass everybody leaves laying
around, because when we get enough we can use it to cast ornaments out
of).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:33:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:13:29 -0500, Smart, David J (David) wrote:
>
>> One more thing, I saw the movie "Lethal Weapon 4" Wednesday night; it
>> showed the effects of an AK-47 fired one-handed on full auto under 
>> about 20 feet of water. Blew away the target at a range of about one
>> inch. I understand from previous TML postings that such use is possible
>> without the barrel exploding but wouldn't the chance of jamming be
>> *much* higher?
>
> I'm not sure about this one.  The only weapon that *I* know of that can
> effectively used under water with no problems is the Glock series of
> handguns.  I remember visiting a guy's website where he took quite a few
> pictures of him firing his Glock while fully submerged in a large tank of
> water.  You might be able to find the URL by doing a web search...

I have vague memories of some gun magazine test firing a bunch of
weapons in a swimming pool for some reason or the other. Anybody got a
better reference?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:07:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca> writes:
>> 
>> >We had a tense 15 minutes once. I was firing a friend's SKS and I pulled
>> >the trigger and nothing happened. So I had everybody get well back and
>> >just barely opend the bolt. Yep, there was a cartridge case peering out
>> >at me. 
>> ...
>> >But like I said, that was one *scary* quarter hour.
>> 
>>   Now wouldn't that be a real pain in the middle of a firefight?
>> Hmm, duck, and try to clear jam without losing part of your less
>> favourite hand?
>
> It's inconvenient, to be sure, but maybe not as bad as you think.
> In combat many (well, *most*) range safety rules are simply ignored.
> If a "round in battery, failure to fire" occurs, the standard drill
> is cycle the action, verify (if possible) that the round ejected
> and a fresh round entered the chamber, and get back on the trigger.
> After the battle, (assuming you survive) you can complain to the
> QM (Ord.) about defective MilSpec ammo. :^)

Our problem was that the round *wouldn't* eject. Of course, it turned
out to be an empty casing, but still...

BTW, I'm reminded of a tale I heard once upon a time. It's a nasty that
could be used by or against players.

Seems a certain government agency that shall remain nameless was able
to insinuate someone into an operation smuggling arms and ammo to a
"non-approved" geurilla group.

As the story goes, their man swapped a few cases of ammo for "doctored"
cases. These had a few "special" rounds scattered thru them. 

The special rounds looked the same and weighed the same. But they
contained an explosive charge rather than normal gun powder. Pull the
trigger with one of these in the chamber and the gun *literally* "blows
up in your face".

A similar bit of nastiness was replacing the occasional coil of delay
fusing with a coil of detcord doctored to *look* like delay fuse. Delay
fuse burns at so many inches per minute (or some such). Detcord
"burns" (actually detonates) at a few thousand feet per second.

So our happy little bomb maker measures the fuse to give a X minute
delay, and lights it. He might even have time to *think* "Oh sh!!" he
won't have time to say it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:35:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML

In mail you write:

>> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>> FWIW, Sweden has some of the highest tax rates for personal
>> income tax on the
>> planet.
>
> I *was* going to stay out of this, but I couldn't. ;-)
>
> You may well be right about the tax rate (it's certainly high), but then, in
> Sweden it doesn't wreck one's economy beyond all saving if one has the bad
> taste to get a serious, long-lasting, incapacitating illness that requires
> constant hospital care and heavy medication. I see the Swedish taxes as a
> lottery. Sure, the tickets *are* kind of expensive, but the jackpot (that
> you don't really want to win ;-) can *easily* be worth several thousand a
> day...
>
>>  The upper middle class and the upper class tax rates are *killers*.
>
> Um, no. I believe I'm part of the upper middle class, and I make a very nice
> living thank you. And the upper class generally have professional tax
> evaders to make sure they don't actually have to pay for the services they
> somehow forget to refuse using...

Well, as I recall, Sweden had to convene an emergency session of their
law making body when it was discovered that the tax laws they'd passed
during the last session could result in a tax rate of 102% for certain
persons! 

This *was* 10-15 years back, but still....

The problem with such high tax rates is that above a certain point is
starts to look like it's not worth the effort to earn more as you'd
only lose most of it to taxes. 

In Britain, this resulted in a *lot* of people opting to move elsewhere
to avoid the taxes (Arthur C. Clarke being one of the more famous
cases). 

I don't know what it's done in Sweden, but it *is* a possibility to be
considered. "Brain Drain" as the Brits called it can really hurt a
country.
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:18:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

In mail you write:

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
>
>>No, the melting point of gun barrel steel is over a thousand degrees
>>Centigrade.  I'm not sure *exactly* what it is, but I used to work in a
>>foundry making cast bronze, which melts around 1800 Farenheit, and we used
>>steel tools to skimm the dross off the molten bronze.  They didn't melt
>>unless you held them into the bottom of the 'pot'.  The barrel will lose
>>its temper maybe, but it won't melt.
>
>
> Totally pedantic point here, but IIRC centigrade only runs between 0 and
> 100 deg. Celcius runs from -273 upwards.

Celsius and Centigrade are different names for the same scale. And it
runs from -273.15 (0 Kelvin) on up. 

Kelvin uses the same size degree (1.8 Fahrenheit degrees) and starts at
absolute zero.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:21:30 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

Date sent: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 04:10:30 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> > Date sent: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:17:39 -0500
> > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> > Uhmm, the US legal system is almost entirely based on the English
> > Common Law system (to the extent where decisions in one are obiter
> > <sp> in the other). I think what you are referring to is the Civil Code
> > systems prevelant on the continent.

> Yes.  But why throw England in with the other European
> countries? Because, as I mentioned at least briefly in another post,
> England has moved away from its own Common law traditions.  Since the
> 60s, it is not bound by precedent.  And some of the EU treaties and laws
> have significantly changed the operation of English law.  While it
> may not be immediately visible, it is changing.

Well my legal training was over 15 years ago and I didn't pursue it as a
career and NZ is still bound by precident from a superior court (at least it was 
15 years ago :*>). I guess its another case of being divided by our common 
language (kind of like how the US got to keep attornies while the rest of us got 
lumped with solicitors)

> > IMTU I've always assumed that the Imperial legal system is an
> > inquisitorial Civil Code system rather than an adversorial Common Law
> > system (eg the US, England and most of the Commonwealth). IMTU you
> > have Imperial tribunals (3 to 5 judges) which decide both law and fact.

> I agree almost completely.  IMHO, adversarial representation is not
> mutuallyexclusive of Civil code and/or Inquisitorial systems.  At one
> time or another, you can find different combinations of these factors
> throughout history, and some still present today.   Russia is an example
> that comes to mind with a hybrid adversarial/inquisitorial system for
> crimes.  Also, some Common law courts are not adversarial, and this
> practice has been growing, albeit not yet in significant measures, though
> not criminal courts.

I choose deliberatly to heavily accentuate the inquistorial aspects, it just fits 
better with my image of the Imperium. They are more interested establishing 
the "truth" in a lot of matters (refer to the powers I gave the courts to exclude 
witnesses, evidence and lines of questioning).

> > IMTU law theoretically derives from the Moot not the Emperor (a Sylean
> > holdover), but the Emperor as President of the Moot is the instrument
> > of the law and as such the legal system runs down parallel to the
> > Nobility,

> I'll have to check the Warrant of Restoration, but I think this hair
> splitting isunnecessary.  IIRC, the Emperor's the law maker, Moot or no
> Moot. I guess the Moot is moot.   :-P

[WARNING: mindless constitutional debate follows]

It becomes important in 1116 :*> Its covered in Articles II and III. Article II 
states that "the powers of the Imperium shall be vested in the Emperor".
Article III states that the Moot "shall provide their advice and council to the 
Emperor prior to any legislation or action by the Emperor" and it also gives
the Moot two other powers: "to dissolve the Imperium" and to "disqualify an 
Imperial Heir"

From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that the Moot
represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all theoretical. In
practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the authority of the Imperial
fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it gives the
Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).

> > every Imperial noble is in theory a judge, but in practice they delegate
> > their authority to a trained court.

> I concur with my learned brother.

Lets see, in NZ a gentle nod is the appropriate acknowledgement and 
appreciation (you can't be too vigorous, or the silly wig will fall off). :*>

> > All but the most minor cases are heard in County court in the first
> > instance (most Barons and Marquis do not have courts, but do
> > occassionally hear minor cases; sort of like current JP's).

> Again I agree, wrt Barons, but I call it Imperial District Court and
> there is at least one per system.

They could quite possible have been called both names at different
times :*>

> > An appeal to a Ducal court is usually automatic, with further appeals
> > being by leave only (requiring a serious point of law or fact).

> I have a Subsector Court of Appeals, and then appeal by leave as you
> have it.

I like the more "feudal" feel of calling the courts by their noble titles. helps to 
remind players of the true nature of the system.

I worked on NZ's levels as a model. We have 5 tiers (with a 6th about to be
introduced). Most cases are heard at the 2nd tier, with appeals to the 3rd. 
Serious cases are heard at the 3rd. Appeal from 3rd to 4th to 5th is only by
leave (though a case heard first at 3 would almost always be granted leave).

> > Aquitals can only be appealed on the grounds of purjury.

> I don't limit the possible remedy.  IMO, a Duke, etc., can completely
> dismiss, vacate, reverse, remand or alter the remedy of any case
> appealed to him.

I put it in to allow the prosecution to appeal a not guilty verdict without
creating double jeapardy. Convictions and sentancing can be appealed
much as our current legal system (with the inherant risks that involves, as
you detailed).

> So, you might risk a worse result by appealing.  However, Dukes would
> very rarely be interested enough to make so radical a departure from the 
> court's judgment.

Most definitely. It would be exceptional for any noble to reach into a court. It 
most certainly would be noticed in *all* sorts of places :*>

> I allow nobles to reach down and take a case out of the court system
> and decide it themselves if necessary.  Here's the scenario I see,
> for dramatic purposes at least.  Joe Wildman kills Tom Softskull with
> a lucky shot in a bar brawl.  He is tried and sentenced to death.
> Duke Whatshisname hears about this just in time to stop the
> execution.  The Duke steps in, declares that Joe is needed for
> services to the Duke and the Imperium, and lifts the sentence.
> Of course, if Joe gets out of line, the Duke can reinstate the
> sentence and carry out the punishment immediately.

I like it give PC's an incentive to perform. Also if the Duke can trump up some 
"nice" charges in the first place..... (my modification in only allowing the court 
itself to call and question witnesses is intended to allow the Empire to stack 
the deck if neccessary). Just I wouldn't have the Duke commute or reverse a 
sentance. I'd have the good Duke suspend it. Much easier to explain to your 
superiors if neccessary. Then if the character performs really well the Duke can 
exercise the perogative of mercy and issue a pardon.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:02:58 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

At 01:14 21/08/98 EDT, DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 8/19/98 17:40:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:
>
><< >3)  At what temperature do modern 9mm cased powder pistol rounds start
> >cooking off?
> 
> A few hundred degrees Celsius IIRC, though this depends on how long they
> are exposed to the heat, as it has to penetrate the shell casing.
>  >>
> Wouldn't the heat required to cause a cook-off, have already plasticized the
>barrel? (I.e. make it extremely soft and deformed?)

Machinegun barrels are swapped at about 500 degrees Celsius, which is just
starting to glow in darkness. At this point the barrel wear rate is
starting to increase rapidly, but deformation is still some way off.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:15:39 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

At 12:49 21/08/98 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:
>
>> Japan was on the verge of
>> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
>> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended in
>> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
>> because of this.
>
>This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second bomb!
>When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup attempt
>to force the war to continue.

And one shouldn't forget that the Japanese army in Manchuria kept on until
the Soviets wiped it out.
 
- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:12:06 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question

At 09:13 21/08/98 -0500, David wrote:

>One more thing, I saw the movie "Lethal Weapon 4" Wednesday night; it
>showed the effects of an AK-47 fired one-handed on full auto under 
>about 20 feet of water. Blew away the target at a range of about one
>inch. I understand from previous TML postings that such use is possible
>without the barrel exploding but wouldn't the chance of jamming be
>*much* higher?

I suspect that sooner or later some of the propellant gas would remain in
the barrel beteen firings, with disasterous results for the barrel. However
the firer would probably be OK as the barrel would probably only slplit,
not shatter.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:32:49 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

At 09:23 AM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
>>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
>>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
>>
>
>It isn't? Since when?
>I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?

	Ich koennte meine Meinung auf Deutsch geben ... ou peut-etre en Francais ...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:41:52 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed - one more question

At 03:33 22/08/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>I have vague memories of some gun magazine test firing a bunch of
>weapons in a swimming pool for some reason or the other. Anybody got a
>better reference?

It was _Guns & Ammo_, probably about ten years ago. I can't do better than
that because my father threw out all his back copies a couple of years ago.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 06:26:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions

In mail you write:

> Planetary Defense
>
> Besides COACC, what prevents invading fleets from taking a
> planet?  Could someone explain to me a deep meson site?  Does
> anyone have stats for such a site?

This gets messy. Any decently populated planet is going to have to be
*forced* to surrender. A fleet can't carry enough people to take over
against any sort of determined resistance. After all, if the population
is a *mere* billion people, how many troops does it take to keep them
in line. A million troops would be hard to transport, and give you
*one* soldier per *thousand* people. So you have to wear them down
somehow.

It's possible to just blast the planetary surface (and any subsurface
installations you can detect) into rubble from orbit. But one generally
attack a planet with the intention of *taking over*. If you blast it to
rubble, you'd be better of starting fresh on an uncolonized planet!

So the various planetary defense are to cut downm on the amount of
surface bombarment from orbit and try to make landing troops as
difficult as possible.

> Battle Carriers
>
> Why o why do battle carriers hold riders within their hull
> instead of grappling them onto the outside?  Does this have
> to do with the Lanthanum Grid?  Is the Lanthanum Grid well
> defended as a true rule?

The original designs *didn't* have the riders carried inside. I don't
know about more recent ones.

And even if you go along with the surface grid idea, it's possible to
have a grid installed on the riders, and just have it connect to the
"carrier"'s grid thru the grapples.

> Here's the point: Lurenti/Nolikian battle groups rely on
> hangars rather than exterior grapples for jump travel.  Why?

Because the designer felt like it?

> Really Really Big Ships
>
> What's the biggest useful ship the Imperium would want to
> produce... and why?  (This is probably only opinion-polling).
> Is the Tigress as big as the 3I needs?  They wouldn't care
> for a billion-ton ship, would they?

Well, you run into problems getting rid of waste heat on really big
ships. Not enough surface area for the volume.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 06:39:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Avalon Hill

In mail you write:

>    Good news from the Hasbro take over of Avalon Hill...
>
>>Return-Path: <consumer_support@hasbro.com>
>>From: Consumer Affairs <consumer_support@hasbro.com>
>>To: "'Harold D. Hale'" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: RE: Feedback via Talk to Us
>>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:37:48 -0400
>>
>>Thank you for contacting us.  Hasbro has entered into an agreement with
>>Avalon Hill to purchase their game division, which includes Avalon Hill Game
>>Co., Avalon Hill software and Victory Games.  The deal is expected to close
>>during the fourth quarter and there are plans to continue the board game
>>line.  We have no further information at this time.

It rather depends on what *they* mean by "board game"...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:44:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches

In mail you write:

> Looking at specific routes, I'd say the long-haul routes follow
> X-Boat jumproutes (which are more likely to be constantly patrolled).
> So, for example, we have, in Xboat-jump-distances:

I decided to try redoing this as a "standard" distance chart:

P           S             R            
a  G  F     t     C   I   h       P           D           C
l  l  o     r  L  o   d   y       o   R       a       J   h
l  i  r     o  u  l   e   l       r   e       r   E   e   r
i  s  n  M  u  n  l   r   a   G   o   g   M   r   f   w   o
q  t  i  o  d  i  a   a   n   r   z   i   i   i   a   e   n
u  e  c  r  e  o  c   t   o   a   l   n   r   a   t   l   o
e  n  e  a  n  n  e   i   r   m   o   a   e   n   e   l   r
3  5  5  6  6  8  8+ 13  15  15  15+ 18  19+ 19+ 22  24  27+ Trin
   6  2  3  7  9  9+ 14  16  16  16+ 19  20+ 20+ 23  25  28+ Pallique
      7  8  5  7  3+ 12  14  14  14+ 17  18+ 18+ 21  23  26+ Glisten
         1  9 11 10+ 16  18  18  18+ 21  22+ 22+ 25  27  30+ Fornice
           10 12 11+ 17  19  19  19+ 22  23+ 23+ 26  28  31+ Mora
               2  8+  7   9   9   9+ 12  13+ 13+ 16  18  21+ Strouden
                 10+  5   7   7   7+ 10  11+ 11+ 14  16  19+ Lunion
                     15+ 17+ 17+ 17* 20+ 21* 21* 24+ 26+ 29* Collace
                         12   8  12+ 15  12+ 12+ 19  21  24+ Iderati
                            14    ?   7  18+ 18+ 11  13  16+ Rhylanor
                                 14+ 17   8+  8+ 21  23  26+ Gram
                                      7+ 18* 18* 11+ 13+ 16* Porozlo
                                         21+ 21+  4   6   9+ Regina
                                              ?  25+ 27+ 30* Mire
                                                 25+ 27+ 30* Darrian
                                                      2   5+ Efate
                                                          3+ Jewell

+ One end of trip is not on an X-boat route
* Both ends of trip are not on an Xboat route
? systems are adjacent, but no xboat route connects them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:26:26 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Military lovers/haters (long, sorry)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: An open letter regarding miitary service, pacifism, etc.


>Answer me this, who deserves greater respect: the private who fell on Omaha
>beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau? [answer: both are equally
>deserving].

>Andrew etc.


Andrew the point here is out of context.  In both cases these people stood
up for what they believed in and DIDN'T run and hide in a cave or something.
Don't think though that I don't respect Jens' personal beliefs, I
volunteered to defend his right to believe any way he wants.  Sweden is
after all "affiliated" with NATO, I just don't want him or anyone else
putting me down for my beliefs.  What's the old saying, "don't look down on
me until you've walked a mile in my shoes."  No one knows , not even me, why
I stayed in the military for 20 years or why anyone else would stay in for
that matter.

It has been interesting reading so far about a lot of personal feelings and
beliefs from a whole lot of people.  The reason its so interesting to me is
the fact that its happening on the TML.  This is a place where a good 98% of
careers start in the military.  I didn't say 98% of the occupations
available, I said 98% of the occupations started.  For those figures check
your own game and poll how many of your players are NON-Military or military
affiliated (Scouts) as a beginning career.  Add this to the fact that
everyone wants their ship armed so that it might defend itself and you come
to the conclusion that SOME people aren't being honest with themselves.  I
would almost bet that 99.99999% (1 in a 1,000,000 haven't) of all Traveller
players have participated in combat of some kind or other so at least some
where at the sub-conscious level all players believe that there are a hell
of a lot things worth dying for.  They just don't want to admit it because
the image that they project to their peers and the rest of the world would
be tarnished.  The mind set is a little skewed to the right of center to
begin with in Traveller, after all wasn't it originally written by another
war mongering American.  Those of us who play the game know this is true,
haven't YOU participated in combat of some form?

Does anyone else find this as ironic as me?  Actually, I would be very
interested in finding out the backgrounds of several "player characters"
based on some of the fan/hate mail I received for posting my views.  BTW, to
those of you who responded positively, THANK YOU!  For those of you who
responded negatively, THANK YOU!  My response to all of the mail I received
is as follows:

I tend to believe that ALL people are due the right to live and die anyway
they want to as long as it doesn't interfere with the majority of the rest
of the world or is morally wrong. (No I really don't want to get into morale
beliefs, please don't over extend the definition of the word or the way it
was intended to be used here.)  In that way I have mellowed dramatically
over the last 30 years or so.  When I first entered the armed forces I was
intent on wiping out those stinking commy bastards with what ever it took.
As the years went by and I learned more and more about PEOPLE and other
countries I started to have a lot of doubts about a lot of "American" ideas.
A whole bunch were good and solid but some where pure hogwash and I was able
to slowly distill the good from the bad on my on.  I've been reading a lot
of history and some sociology books and I am much more liberal in my views
today than I was in 1969 (once again, I'm still skewed toward "American"
interpretations on a number of things, sorry, the nature of the beast).

All I can say to the list is, don't be so naive as to believe that the way
you think is the only RIGHT way.  Its not!!!!  Jens is a communist,
so....Communism in its purist form is a great IDEA.  Socialism in concept
ain't that bad either.  I personally don't believe that they will work
because you're still stuck with humanity (read that to be greed, avarice,
envy, ignorance, arrogance, egotistic, etc.) trying to carry them out.
America is somewhere in between a socialistic and, and, and, hell I'm not
even sure any more.  I looked up the definition of Democracy as published in
an English dictionary in the 1750's and found it to be slightly different
from our current "implementation".  That makes me wonder if we are following
the tracks laid by our founding fathers as they understood it and wanted it
for the people of the USA...This leads me to say, "I neither condone nor
condemn MOST actions that occurred or will occur by ANY country in the
history of the planet."  That leaves a big open playing field for
interpretation and I'm not willing to discuss specifics as related to ANY
country, mine or yours.  Life goes on, the world still turns, and we will
only live for x number of years.  What impact I will have on this planet
will be so negligible it might as well be ZERO.  Same goes for almost
everyone here, so calm your egos down.


Bottom line, I'm sorry for my comments to Anders Backman that seem to have
gotten this started.  I can't take back my opinions as stated in the
original message and I'm not really sure that I want to BUT, I am sorry for
the heated discussion that it seems to have started.  No that wasn't an
apology to Anders, rather an apology to the TML.  No amount of ranting or
raving is going to change anything here, it won't happen until everyone
searches their own hearts and tries to get answers based on their own
convictions.  In any case, you have to be first and foremost HONEST WITH
YOURSELF about what YOU truly believe.  Any further discussions on this
directed toward me please use private mail.  I won't promise I will reply
but I will at least read your opinions and hopefully they will further
mellow me in my "wisdom gaining years".

Respectfully,
Thom Harris thomharr@mediaone.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #758
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 759



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: One small comment only... 
Re: Weapons expert needed
Rebellion Sourcebook: fleets & regiments
Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches
Japanese troops
Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?
Re: Military Service
Re: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences
Re: Imperial Defense Questions
Re: Rebellion Sourcebook: fleets & regiments
Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Military Service
Re: OT Politics
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)
Trade rules
Re: Expanding starship software (long)
Re: Traveller and Families
Excuse me...
Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:14:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: One small comment only... 

> At 09:23 AM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
> >>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
> >>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
> >>
> >
> >It isn't? Since when?
> >I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?
> 
> 	Ich koennte meine Meinung auf Deutsch geben ... ou peut-etre en Francais ...

Estudio la lengua Espanol para tres anos in escuela secondario.

Ya gavaryu nimnoga pa russki.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:50:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Weapons expert needed
...
>BTW, I'm reminded of a tale I heard once upon a time. It's a nasty that
>could be used by or against players.
>
>Seems a certain government agency that shall remain nameless was able
>to insinuate someone into an operation smuggling arms and ammo to a
>"non-approved" geurilla group.

  IIRC, that was against the Communist/leftist nationalist insurgents in
the Phillipines, in the `50's? OC, the source may have been wrong, too.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:07:45 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Rebellion Sourcebook: fleets & regiments

I bellieve that the Rebellion Sourcebook has fleet numbers and
regiment numbers per subsector.  Can someone please provide 
this info to me, regarding the Empty Quarter?

Thanks,
  Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:46:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Situation Normal in the Spinward Marches

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu> 
> Commercially, Glisten may be the busiest system in the Marches.  Under
> the trade rules used in MT and later, its trade codes give it basically
> the maximum possible bonuses as a source of cheap, high-tech goods.

	I don't have MT.  Are these the same rules used in TNE?  Thanks.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:13:40 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Japanese troops

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second bomb!
>When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup attempt
>to force the war to continue.

And one shouldn't forget that the Japanese army in Manchuria kept on until
the Soviets wiped it out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It did?

My grandfather's brother has vivid memories of Japanese soldiers
returning to Japan after the surrender by the tens of thousands or more,
most of them from Manchuria.  His small unit was one of those accepting
their surrender. It made him very uncomfortable, these hordes of troops
marching off the transports, veterans who had never been defeated
in battle, outnumbering the American occupation force in the whole
port city. The Japanese stacked their rifles and went home without
incident, much to my great-uncle Floyd's relief.

The only Russian involvement in the Pacific theater (IIRC) was a
declaration of war just days before the Japanese surrender so the
Soviets could grab some undefended islands north of Japan.


ObTrav: Has the 3i's opinion on what to do with troops who retire
(or get invalided out, or discharged, or whatever) been spelled out?
Say you sign on in Core and your tour is up at the Regina navy base?

Do they just hand you a stack of Middle (or even Low) passages
with your retirement check? Maybe the ones you end up with from
the "Benefits" table represent tickets you had left after you found
your way home, or ones you had left when you decided that "home"
didn't mean that much to you any more.

Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in 
the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
useful here).

Does the Military reserve some space on regular transport runs for
taking people home? Space that is usually sufficient, but sometimes
(say at the end of the 5th Frontier War) gets overwhelmed by a sudden
surge in people released from the military?

I recall a Heinlein story where a spacer claimed a right to a ride home.
I'm imagining a retirement benefit, an ID card or token with your
designated homeworld on it. Present it to any naval transport heading
towards your homeworld, and (space permitting) they'll give you a bunk.
You're supposed to turn it over to a Navy (or Army, or whatever) 
representative when you get home, but I can imagine some retirees
keeping it as a memento (or to scam some free rides with later).

"The Long Way Home" type scenarios are classic themes.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:55:49 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?

Nope; No CT Vilani module. Mr. Miller was kind enough to sell me a TAS Alien
Encyclopedia and it contained the following: Aslan,K'Kree,
Vargr,Zhodani,Droyne,Solomani,Hiver,and Darrien. (It also had Alien Realms).

Seth

I was I had the DGP stuff...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:57:08 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Military Service

Yes, and Yes....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences

> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:25:04 -0600
> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>
> I figure that it was the Vilani cultural mindset among the masses, whether
> Vilani-descended or not, and the resulting tendency to stay at home and do
> what was expected of one, that led to the creation of a class of
> "Travellers".  It became the role of these social misfits to undertake all
> the dangerous, unpredictable, and individualistic tasks on the margins that
> keep an interstellar society running smoothly, so that the rest of society
> could get on with the really important work.

Interesting.  I find this reminiscent of Banks' Culture, with the Contact
service and particularly Special Circumstances serving to absorb and
occupy all the misfits.  In the Culture, of course, this is so the rest of
society can get on with hedonism and political maneuvering. :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:23:57 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions

At 07:49 PM 8/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I know y'all have talked about this; now I'd like to know
>about it... anyone point me to articles or summaries?
>
>Planetary Defense
>
>Besides COACC, what prevents invading fleets from taking a
>planet?  Could someone explain to me a deep meson site?  Does
>anyone have stats for such a site?

Hordes of local folk armed to the teeth.  On any habitle planet you are
going to have to pacify the population, and that's a tall order (just ask
the German Army of WW2.)  On non-habitle worlds, control of the
life-support machinary will ensure control.

A deep meson site is a very large meson cannon buried deep inside the
planet's crust.  Since mesons ignore matter when they fire, this is a very
effective planetary defence scheme.. your gun is buried a mile or two (or
seven, or fifteen) under the ground, and is virtually undetectable.

The weak point is the power supply, and the need for a sensor array to
target enemy vessels in orbit.

FFS2 had rules for building these monsters.

>Battle Carriers
>
>Why o why do battle carriers hold riders within their hull
>instead of grappling them onto the outside?  Does this have
>to do with the Lanthanum Grid?  Is the Lanthanum Grid well
>defended as a true rule?

Bad design?  My BT/BR combinations use clamps.

>Really Really Big Ships
>
>What's the biggest useful ship the Imperium would want to
>produce... and why?  (This is probably only opinion-polling).
>Is the Tigress as big as the 3I needs?  They wouldn't care
>for a billion-ton ship, would they?

We've built them though!  Someone posted the "City" class mega=frieghter a
few months back.. about a billion tons, crew in the low 10,000s.. and the
design worked!  We even came up with a use for the bloody things.  I've
done a design for a billion-ton Army Transport..  the *entire* Army (close
to 100,000 troops plus equipment) in a single ship.

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:29:21 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rebellion Sourcebook: fleets & regiments

Here is the Fleet numbers:

- -      -      -    -
- -      -      -    -
53   86  151  -
158 306 307  -

Note: these are the active fleets assigned to the subsectors, on the eve of
the rebellion. The book mentions that there are reserve numbered fleets in
each subsector, but does not list them. In addition there is the named fleet
for the sector; in this case I have to asume that it is named The Empty
Quarter Fleet as again the book does not list them. The book implies that
sectors with smaller amounts of fleets (like this one) use the named fleet as
merely an administrative echelon of command, and not an operational level.

As for regiments; the Rebellion Source Book does not list them. It gives an
organizational outline (ex. what types of troops-Infantry, etc.), and a
generation table that gives numbers of Battalions on a world. In my opinion,
the Marines would have one maneuver unit per subsector fleet (the size of the
unit would depend on the size of the reserve and active fleet in each
subsector- ie. how many Squadrons per fleet, and if there are dedicated
transports for the Marines, or if they are converged ship's troops). I have no
idea how to organize the active Imperial Army troops, except maybe one Corps
per subsector. This is based on an assumption that an AssaultRon is in each
subsector Fleet, and each AssaultRon can lift an Army Corps.

Hope this helps...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:02:27 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: IN recruiting practices (was re: Military Service)

Douglas wrote
>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:
>
>> >From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> >>Subject: re: Military Service
>> ...
>> >Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector,
>subsector
>> >navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory
>service
>> >at times, depending on the local government type and the current
>> >situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to
provide
>> >half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the
>ruler
>> >might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will
>there
>> >be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on
>the
>> >same level as Desertion?
>
>All four rule sets seem to be pretty clear on the matter. ["A character

>becomes subject to the draft if 1) If he fails to pass every
>enlistment roll, 2) if his enlistment roll is ever a 12 exactly, 3) he
>volonteers for the draft."  Marc Miller's Traveller, p21]

I assumed that this is a device to limit the number of characters needed
to be rolled to start a game.
"The character fails to enlist, he becomes a general laborer, hand the
character sheet to the GM and roll a new character."
The system does not cover the store clerks, general laborers, business,
manufacturing personnel, etc.  IMTU Someone that does not want to stay
on planet signs up for a volunteer draft.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:24:41 -0700
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop, but how does one acquire a HIWG CD?

Thanks,
Kristian

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         To all those awaiting shipment of version 1.1 of the HIWG/TML CD ROM:
> 
>         They should be going out in the mail tomorrow, it's taken me a little longer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:51:17 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Military Service

> >I have to say one thing here, as a Marine (Semper Fi), the left is
always
> >getting dupes like Jens to spout their side of the argument, without
saying
> >both sides of it...  I just wonder if she knows that in 'Nam the
agressors
> >were not the USA, but the Left?  I wonder if she knows that in Europe,
> >Russia invaded nations & we, the USA, stood aside because we had an
> >agreement...
>   I think you might consider that Jen/Jens is almost certainly a
masculine
> name in Swedish, AFAIK: I really doubt that the Swedes draft females :)

Maybe, maybe not...  Who knows, until he or she reveals his/her gender...

>   I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the Vietnamese are
> native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or
Canucks. 
> For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me privately.

But, were we (the USA) not helping out our allies, the South Vietnamese &
the French?  Or should we neglect our allies in their time of need?

>   (Once upon a time a Vietnamese immigrant [father left VN for health
> reasons, having been an ARVN officer] asked me whether I felt guilty
> about the treatment of NorAm aboriginals by the Canadian gov't. He was
> somewhat surprised when I gave a qualified yes followed by an inquiry
> as to the highwater mark of the medieval Vietnamese Empire and the
> extent to which other Indochinese peoples had been subjugated by those
> conquests). 

(Once upon a time a Vietnamese immigrant thanked my father for fighting for
his country.

> >I would also like to say as a jew, that the Swiss banks still hold Nazi
> >Wealth that was taken from the jews & the Sweds knew all about what was
> >going on in the camps & stood by, so they are not, & were never neutral
in
> >WWII...  They choice to side with the Nazis in a minor way, they are as
> >guilty as the Nazis ever were...
>   I'm going to take a wild swing at this flamebait, but didn't WW II in
> Europe, and the operations of the einsatzgruppen outside Greater Germany,
> begin prior to December 1941?

Yeppers...  But, yet the Swiss & the Swedes knew what was going on & only a
small handfull did something about it...  Also, they turned over jews who
had crossed the border to the Nazis...

Btw, as he/she was ragging on my country, I just ragged on his/hers...

>   BTW, wasn't there some fellow, name of Wallenberg...?

Yes, but one of a small handfull out of a whole nation...  A
1-in-a-1,000,000...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:55:11 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: OT Politics

>One thing missing in the current form of capitalism practiced in the US
>is the social responsibility aspect. 

Capitalism, is not there to provide for social responsibilities...  It is
the job of the people...  It is not the job of government (their job is to
keep people from shooting at you while others do it...)...  Nor is it the
job of business (their job is to make money...)...

The whole thing of it is, is that people do for other people...  Not
governments or businesses...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:06:00 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> >> Japan was on the verge of
> >> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
> >> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended
in
> >> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
> >> because of this.

By who's accont?  Not their own or ours...

> >This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second
bomb!
> >When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup
attempt
> >to force the war to continue.
> >
> >People are still having medical problems?  Tough.  They started it.  We
> >finished it.  I learned a very long time ago that if you start a fight
you
> >better be ready to accept the consequences.  The Japanese committed
> >atrocities on the Chinese, captured prisoners, Koreans.. anyone who got
in
> >their way.  There is no evidence they were ready to surrender until we
> >demostrated the ability and will to devastate entire cities from a
single
> >plane.

Hell, the Japanese have not turned over many of their war criminals to the
US...

> It's easy to second guess the people on the ground at the time. Why
should the
> US have expended one more US or US Allied life to save a Japanese life?
Mr.
> Rydholm can be as pacifistic as he wants, but *he* wasn't one of the PBI
(and
> Marines!) who were *going* to be casualties in Downfall. *ANYTHING* that
saved
> allied lives was justified. Sod the Japs ... and their continual whining
about
> how unfair it all was. Berry is right, *they* chose to go to war, shaft
the
> consequences of the actions needed to end it home to *them*.

Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win &
they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the war
reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US from
them...

> Phil
> Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

WooHoo, I can still get stuff of FGU, the owner owns the best gaming store
here in town...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
	I love Space Opera...
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:12:49 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> >>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
> >>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
> >>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
> >It isn't? Since when?
> >I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?
> 	Ich koennte meine Meinung auf Deutsch geben ... ou peut-etre en Francais
..

I would like to say in english to those who our soldiers & marines died to
free their nations in the WWI & WWII & are not gratefull about it, & you
know who you are... (No this does not mean England...)

Shut your cakeholes & bloody well bugger off...  If it was not for us (The
USA, the Brits, the Irish, & the Candians, celtics untied for a common
cause & to be in a good fight...) fighting & dying to save your ungratefull
asses, you would be in a camp right now...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:14:32 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Response to "Military Service" on TML (fwd)

> From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
> >> Japan was on the verge of
> >> surrender, and they would have been out of the fight very shortly. The
> >> butchery of almost two entire cities of civilians can not be defended
in
> >> any way. People are still having serious medical problems in the area
> >> because of this.
> >
> >This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second
bomb!
> >When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup
attempt
> >to force the war to continue.
> 
> And one shouldn't forget that the Japanese army in Manchuria kept on
until
> the Soviets wiped it out.

Let us not forget the Rape of Manchuria...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:46:17 AST/ADT
From: "Gary MacKeigan" <GARYMAC@cbbc.cbbc.ns.ca>
Subject: Trade rules

I am fairly new to running a T4 game and I was wondering about the 
rules on Trade and Commerce.  Specifically, when you generate the 
number and size(s) of "cargos" available for shipment to the various 
systems within reach of your ship, are these the goods that the ship 
owner can then purchase on speculation?  If not, then do you generate 
cargos available for shipment and also the goods available for purchase, 
and then allow the characters to buy as much as they want on 
speculation?  I really want to understand this as I am writing a Visual 
Basic program that will automate the whole process for me.  Any 
clarification would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Gary MacKeigan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:56:54 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software (long)

Excellent expansion of the old CT computer programs - I particularly 
liked the Maneuver write-up, as this filled a nice gap in my own 
thoughts about the capabilities of the program.

The improved generate program to allow co-ordinated jumps 
sounded a litlle "hand-wavey" at first, but now I have thought 
through the idea, I like it.

IMTU subsidised merchants (like the one in The Traveller 
Adventure) are not sold with a Generate program. Instead they use 
pre-generated tapes (I vaguely recall that these are canon) that let 
you jump for A to B.  Tapes are only valid for a relatively narrow time 
range (two days) due to the movement of planets, but are available from 
the local "Office of Subsidised Traders" (OST) for 100 Cr a time.  Such 
offices exist on all worlds of a subsidised route.  Often, the OST is 
one of the many small jobs the local portmaster has, which I usually 
compare to the the film "Local Hero".  In that film, one man ran the 
local post office/hotel/fishing rod hire/etc because there was too 
little trade to justify a full-time person for each job ... my D and E 
starports are often like that!

Because ships come with limited (or no) version of each program, the 
ability to write your own programs was more important IMTU.  With 
Douglas' rules I can easily extend the system to cope with (say) 
generate-5 (the Imperial Data package definition of the version that 
supports co-ordinated jumps) - you just need someone with Computer-6 
and Nav-6 to write it, plus a six months (1000 sophont-hours + 30% for 
each additional sophont needed to get the combined skills).  This gives 
players something to do during jump:

Example 1: "I'm working on the new anti-hijaak program, to tie it into 
those new motion sensors we got cheap from Ripley.  I reckon I can use 
them to track everyone's location and use that as a second-tier 
authenication process in case some smart alec tries to reproduce the 
captain's retinal pattern again."

Example 2: "I'll put together an IDP 9001 documentation package and 
submit Jack's new Generate-4 program for verification testing on 
Glisten so that I can sell it.  No, I'm not telling Jack - besides I'm 
paying the verification fee <wicked smile>."


There is something strangly satisfying in exchanging a knowing 
look with the Ref and being told "you made a good roll there - add 100 
hours towards the completion of your latest project".  The gradual 
build up towards a final goal (be it study to gain a new skill level, 
writing programs or working out in the gym) is similar to those 
experience point awards that make Dungeons & Dragons fun for 
"competitive" role-players (i.e. most players, in my experience).  I 
prefer this form of continual assessment to the "make a roll - no you 
failed to achieve anything in the last six months".  I have even 
this type of character development for absent players - "Scotty is 
working feverishly to complete his latest program and refuses to come 
out on some fool expidition in a cramped ATV".  The extra dose of 
experience points (hours) towards completion of a pet project can be 
significant compensation for missing out on an evening's role-playing 
.. and it always seems to provide ample justification for Scotty 
turning up to save the day when the party cock-up in grand style.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:58:24 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Families

> IMTU, every anagathic found so far causes sterility as a side-effect.

But a forward-thinking Archon (or PC) will have deposited genetic 
material in a cryo-vault so that a new heir can be found if (and I 
stress, IF) a child by my new political-alliance spouse becomes a 
necessity.



Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:21:28 -0700
From: Euel Ball <euel1@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Excuse me...

How do I unsubscribe from this list?
- -- 
Euel Ball, Writer And Mutant At Large
"Normal?, normal's boring!"

Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:20:00 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)

Simon Early wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, every anagathic found so far causes sterility as a side-effect.

But a forward-thinking Archon (or PC) will have deposited genetic 
material in a cryo-vault so that a new heir can be found if (and I 
stress, IF) a child by my new political-alliance spouse becomes a 
necessity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course - with two reminders:

1. You're not breeding with your political-alliance spouse if she's
an immortal as well. Anagathics + female pregnancy hormones
do not mix, at least not in any way that will create a survivable
womb environment.

2. Immortals don't have kids. This is a cultural view that just happens
to match the usual state of reality. If you're the supreme leader and
can get away with anything then fine, but it's often dangerous to go
against your people's cultural biases.
Immortals don't have children or heirs. They are the embodiment of
whatever dynasty they wished to found, it lives and dies with them.

Above is IMTU, of course - YTUMV.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:50:07 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

I'd better jump on the OT bandwagon before it leaves town.  Mostly about that
perennial Trav topic, Japan and WWII.  We must all be Vilani at heart, really,
forever going over our traditional arguments in search of consensus...

The Legate Legion wrote:

>Hell, the Japanese have not turned over many of their war 
>criminals to the
>US...

Imprecise and misleading language.  All Japanese war criminals who hadn't been
captured by the Soviets and Brits were in the hands of the US at the end of
the war.  The US eventually _chose_ not to prosecute many of them, and in fact
tried to help many of them get back into politics and business.  There was
this Cold War thing starting up, y'see, and the US felt that some chastened
and "probably reformed" fascists were better allies than the political parties
and factions that would have been left surviving if a genuine war-crimes sweep
had been made.  

The opposition parties in Japan at the time of surrender and onwards would
have been _DELIGHTED_ to see the war criminals prosecuted -- but, alas, those
people were mostly socialists and feminists and cosmopolitan intellectuals and
other subversive types, and so had to be kept out of power in order to protect
the security of the Free World.  So it goes...

>Let us not forget the Rape of Manchuria...

I assume you mean the Rape of Nanjing?  Manchuria was _prosperous_ during
Japanese occupation, and underwent considerable increases in population,
capital investment, and agricultural and industrial production.  Still no
picnic, but a far better place to be than most of the rest of East Asia in the
'30s and early '40s.  I've met older Chinese workers who fled _into_ Manchuria
in the late '30s to get away from the Guomindang government and to live in
relative security and affluence.  It's not a real acceptable piece of recent
history in the PRC, but it seems to be widely known to be true by the folks
who live(d) there.  

The Soviets disassembled quite a few choice factories and whatnot and hauled
them over the border; then the civil war in China expanded into the Northeast
and damaged the infrastructure -- and the inhabitants -- quite a bit, clear
into 1949.

As Walter Smith has pointed out in another post, the Japanese army in
Manchuria was pretty sizable and still relatively intact at surrender.
However, he also wrote:

>The only Russian involvement in the Pacific theater (IIRC) was a
>declaration of war just days before the Japanese surrender so the
>Soviets could grab some undefended islands north of Japan.

Manchuria too; fought a couple minorish actions and interned all the Japanese
soldiers and civilians they could lay hands on.  Some weren't repatriated
until the late '50s.  

Also, the islands in question weren't technically north _of_ Japan; they
_were_ northern Japan, politically speaking.  IIRC, southern Sakhalin
(Karafuto) was administratively part of the home islands since the late 1910s,
and had a population of several hundred thousand Japanese civilians.  That's
why the territorial dispute between Japan and the USSR/Russia is so quaint-
sounding to Western newscasters, who are under the impression they're just
"strategically located barren islands".  Besides having heaps of oil and coal
on Sakhalin, the place was _home_ to large numbers of Japanese.  It generates
the same sort of knee-jerk patriotism as handing Alaska back to the Russians
and deporting all US citizens would generate in the US <G>

Phillip McGregor suggested:

> Sod the Japs ... and their continual whining
>about
> how unfair it all was. 

FWIW, I can't recall _ever_ running into Japs who whined, even intermittently,
about the two nuclear bombs.  Not to say that there isn't an anti-nuke
movement in Japan with a particular historical chip on the shoulder, but in my
experience living there it wasn't any more significant than similar movements
in the US.  I do remember watching TV once and seeing news coverage about some
non-approved memorial service in Hiroshima; NHK definitely implied the anti-
nuke grassrooters were nuts from the fringe.  But then I lived in Tokyo...

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #759
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 760



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Convertible fuel tanks and economics
Various Stuff
Vilani Vice
A plague on all your houses
Open Letter
[T98#758] Imperial "Constitutional" Debate and analysis of the Emperors' List
Re: Military Service
Re: Imperial Defense Questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Re: Convertible fuel tanks and economics
Re: Military Benefits
Re: Japanese troops
Re: Military service
Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Open Letter
Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?
Re: Military Service
Re: A plague on all your houses
Re: Japanese troops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 16:50:18 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Convertible fuel tanks and economics

There has been considerable effort expended by several contributors to this
list, aimed at determining the cost effectiveness and viability of ships
with jump numbers above Jump-1.  I've been doing some reading in
here-and-now merchant marine shipping.  One point that stuck out is the
facility with which these ships trade fuel-on-board for cargo deadweight
capacity and vice versa, depending on the requirements of their route.
Similarly, the large class of Ore/Bulk/Oil (OBO) carriers use cargo spaces
that can, with a certain amount of cleaning, be used for anything from
grain to crude oil to industrial ores.

I looked into the ship construction rules in CT, FF&S, and GURPS Vehicles
(2d Ed), and I can see no reason why fuel tanks (especially for H2) can't
be fitted with hatches and used as auxiliary cargo holds.  Granted, fuel
tanks are more expensive than cargo holds (which generally cost nothing, in
fact), and there is some wasted space, ranging from 5% in FF&S (per
collapsible tanks) to 10% in VE2 (0.15ft^3/gal).  Also granted that such
spaces might be extremely awkward, especially on small, streamlined ships -
such as PC's are wont to have, and at which the current trade and commerce
system is aimed.  A large, unstreamlined, Jump-3 merchantman making a
series of Jump-1 or Jump-2 legs (where 10-20% of the ship's tonnage is
currently going to waste), might realize some benefit from this approach,
however.

The question I put to the list, particularly those who have done the
extensive cost analyses, is this:  how would converting the unused portion
of a route merchant's fuel tankage to cargo on short legs (less than
maximum jump rating) affect the cost of operating those high jump ships? 

- ---------------

A Sidebar on Procedure:

Converting from fuel tankage to cargo hold:  Pump as much remaining fuel as
possible into another tank.  Either vent the remainder to vacuum (in
orbit), *slowly* vent in controlled amounts of outside air and combust the
residue into water vapor (oxygen atmosphere), or vent it directly into a
reducing atmosphere.

Converting from aux cargo hold back to fuel tankage:  Remove all solid
waste (dunnage, scrap, residual cargo, etc.).  Steam-clean all inside
surfaces.  Vent remaining atmosphere to vacuum (in orbit) or pump out into
ship's life support system (on surface).  Fill tank with H2 and check
purity.  If necessary, recirculate fuel through fuel purifier, either
onboard or ashore.

Cleaning the tanks would be a service available at all Class A-C starports
and many Class D, for some reasonable fee (Cr1 per dton cleaned, in local
currency?).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:58:27 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <Ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Various Stuff

First of all, Kenji asked about thud vs sting for Meson Guns. Kenji, you should know 
better. The decaying mesons themselves will not create thud or sting, merely heat ... if 
used internally. However, a precise targetting solution aimed outside the body in 
question will allow a pressure shock wave to be created, which would itself create 
'thud' - possibly sting as well if in a particulate-heavy atmosphere. Oh yeah, and major 
amounts of radiation. Integration of meson play with imbedded metallic objects is left 
as an exersise for interested Sayat (have we lost our PG-13 rating yet ?).

Secondly, Kenji asked about economics data. My preferred solution is to provide a per 
capita GDP figure, income distribution (1=perfect income equality, 0 = perfect income 
inequality) and interestellar trade as % of GWP. This will provide most of the 
information players need, and enough to extrapolate most of the rest.

Thirdly, there is a major debate going on at the moment about cultural values. Without 
being judgemental, I am going to make these points

1) there is a strong thread of violence being wrong in many religions and philosophies 
(see for example 'Thou shalt not kill' as one of Moses' Commandments compared to the 
work of, say, Hugo Grotius on Just Wars)

2) most governments have seen a need to have access to orginised violence, and people 
prepared to perpetrate it on command

3) most cultures have examples of figures who have refused wrongful orders, or who have 
carried out correct orders wrongly (I am thinking of Mush Morton here, who machinegunned 
survivors in the water after sinking their ships)

4) many cultures have a concept of internalised honour, while others only consider 
'honour' or 'status' to be relevant when recognised by other group members

5) most individuals have a 'loyalty horizon' - people are willing to do things for 
members of their family that they would not do for a stranger

6) most cultures have examples in their history of conflict between loyalties - if you 
are loyal to your country and to the ideals of Democracy, what do you do when your 
country orders you to crush a democratic government ?

Now, the Imperium does not have to follow our own assumptions on what is right action 
and what is not. I find it almost certain that Imperial individuals will have very 
different ideas of right and wrong, that may seem strange to us. For example, where a 
noble has opposed feudal obligations, they may see no problem in proposing that for one 
month he fights for one side, then for the other for a month, and so on. That idea is 
ludicrous to someone with the idea of a citizen having one over-riding loyalty (to their 
nation) but it could make perfect sense to someone from a culture that values noble 
oaths over mere citizenship.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:04:26 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Vilani Vice

What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?  Their cultural emphasis on food
seems to rule out drugs and alcohol, and their preference for communal
living makes casual sex somewhat problematical.  The only thing left would
seem to be gambling.  People usually do the opposite of what they've been
brought up to regard as good, so taking chances would have to be the utimate
thrill for a Vilani gone bad (A Vile-ani?).  Plus this would explain the
prevailance of the Gambling skill in all the character generation tables.

I hate slow weekends.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:29:16 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: A plague on all your houses

From:           	"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Date sent:      	Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:06:00 -0700

> > From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>

> Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win &
> they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the war
> reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US from
> them...

During my life I have seen and experienced horrors which I hope that people 
can't even imagine. To me this attitude (and many others expressed by more 
than one person) is offensive and disgraceful, it sickens me to my stomach. 
Real people die in wars in ways more horrible than we care to think. There are 
no white hats and there are no black hats. The Japanese and Germans are no 
more responsible for the horrors of Nanking and Achwitz than the Isreali's and 
Americans are for Deir Yassin and Wounded Knee. They no more deserved 
destruction and death. War is not about justice and honour, it is about 
expediency and politics. This will be my last post on this matter. I have no 
desire to remain here, goodbye.

> > Phil

Should we hold you responsible for the fate of the Aboriginies?

> Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist

Should we hold you responisible for Deir Yassin? (you should find out the truth 
about militant Jewish Terrorism).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 16:50:59 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Open Letter

Greetings.

I think we have gotten way off onto a topic (or perhaps two) 
that no longer has any bearing on Traveller. It has touched 
corners of our souls that are deep and personal and the 
messages are reflecting that.

When we stray too close to deep moral and philosophical 
areas, our close kinship as Traveller players, referees and fans 
is tested as our differences in politics, religious beliefs, 
political and moral viewpoints are highlighted

t is time to put aside this discussion for the good of our 
Traveller community here on TML.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:19:49 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#758] Imperial "Constitutional" Debate and analysis of the Emperors' List

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:24:12 -0400, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

>> I'll have to check the Warrant of Restoration, but I think this hair
>> splitting isunnecessary.  IIRC, the Emperor's the law maker, Moot or no
>> Moot. I guess the Moot is moot.   :-P

>[WARNING: mindless constitutional debate follows]

>It becomes important in 1116 :*> Its covered in Articles II and III. Article II 
>states that "the powers of the Imperium shall be vested in the Emperor".
>Article III states that the Moot "shall provide their advice and council to the 
>Emperor prior to any legislation or action by the Emperor" and it also gives
>the Moot two other powers: "to dissolve the Imperium" and to "disqualify an 
>Imperial Heir"

Note carefully that it requires the Moot to provide et cetera; it
says nothing about whether the Emperor is required to follow that
advice et cetera.  The entire Moot can say "This is a Bad Idea,
Your Imperial Majesty.  We urge you not to do it." The Emperor
can say "Get stuffed.  I want to do it, and I am the Emperor.  It
will be done."  The Moot then has two choices:  say "As you will,
Your Imperial Majesty.", or call for a convention of the full
Moot, during which they may put forth for vote a proposal to
dissolve the Imperium.  If this vote succeeds by a majority of
the _sum_total_of_the_nobles_of_the_Imperium_, the Imperium
ceases to exist.  Along with it goes the Imperial nobility, the
Imperial armed services, and so on.  

>>From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that the Moot
>represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all theoretical. In
>practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the authority of the Imperial
>fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it gives the
>Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).

Actually, the power of law in the Imperium derives from the
barely restrained megalomania of a certain Cleon Zhunastu, and
the acceptance of his assertions in the Warrant.  The _stability_
of the Imperium relies on, as with all governments, the consent
of the governed.  The Imperial nobility can withdraw that consent
- - but they'd better be so convinced collectively that the Emperor
has so lost the mandate that they'd be willing to collectively
commit hara-kiri - messily - to show it.  The right of
assassination has no basis in the Warrant, and was basically a
Moot running amok, unless Cleon the Mad had no qualified issue.
Cleon's madness would not be "just and proper cause" (Article
III) for disqualifying the heirs unless it was clearly exhibited
in those heirs.  The "right of fleet control" that was asserted
by Olav is equally nonsense under the Warrant.

Technically, the Imperium lost legitimacy when Cleon II abdicated
and the Moot confirmed Artemsus Lentuli, unless Cleon had first
_adopted_ Artemsus _and_ designated him Heir Apparent.  Accepting
the Lentuli dynasty as legitimate, it _may_ have been
delegitimized upon Artemsus's death, as the Moot did not confirm
the eldest child, but instead confirmed Martin I (the _second_
child.  Non-service in government is not in and of itself
necessarily a disqualification).  The next questionable move was
the ascension of Cleon III (the Mad); accepting the Lentulis as
legitimate gave the best claims to the siblings of Martin II and
their issue; if no qualified heir could be found among them, the
siblings of Martin I and their issue are next in line, and only
if no suitable heir can be found among them are the descendants
of Cleon II considered.  If Porfiria was in fact the best claim
among the Lentulis, she should have been considered _before_
Cleon.  The rest of the Lentuli dynasty, ending with the death of
Nicolle, was as legitimate as could reasonably be asserted, given
the prior circumstances.

Subsequent Emperors, by assassination (Cleon IV), right of fleet
control (Olav), and self-proclamation by any theory (Constantus,
George) are absolutely nothing more than usurping pretenders.
The circumstances of Nicolai's confirmation are unknown, but he
may have been the most legitimate ascension between Nicolle's
assassination and the Core Disintegration (of 613-615).  Also
possibly more legitimate were the ascensions by "Moot election"
(Jerome, Jacqueline I, Ramon I); there is nothing governing _how_
the Moot selects an Emperor in the absence of any qualified heir.
However, the fact that this rationale is specifically called out
suggests that it was not the "normal" confirmation/selection
procedure, but yet another irregular method devised to give a
veneer of legitimacy to one who would otherwise be yet another
usurper.

The post-Disintegration Barracks Emperors (Cleon V through
Gustus) are all of questionable legitimacy, but arguably no more
questionable than Nicolai.

The ascension of Arbellatra was possibly the most responsible
exercise of the Moot power to act in absence of a clear heir
(Article III).  The subsequent Emperors of the Alkhalikoi
dynasty, through Strephon, form a case study of the _proper_
pattern of Imperial succession under the Warrant.

The assassination of "Strephon" (actually a clone - an act of bad
judgement on Strephon's part, compounded by concealing his
absence from his family and the Moot - or did he?), which set off
the Rebellion, and indirectly the Collapse, represents a
situation where previous poor decisions and an unwillingness to
act decisively led to problems.  The key previous poor decision
was the (illegitimate) creation/acceptance of the "right of
assassination"; had this never been enshrined in any way, Dulinor
would never have been able to make a claim to the Iridium throne.
The proper order of succession would have been to Iphegenia, then
to Varian, then to Lucan (given that none of them had issue at
the time of the assassination).  Iphegenia was killed with the
clone of her father by Dulinor (Iolanthe would have had no
legitimacy other than that of Strephon.  Upon his death,
regardless of her survival, Iphegenia becomes the Empress, and
Iolanthe becomes the Empress Mother), thus handing the succession
to Varian.  Varian was murdered under mysterious circumstances,
possibly by Lucan; nevertheless, it is clear that Lucan would
have been the most legitimate claimant to the throne.  The Moot
can either confirm or disqualify; there is no third route.  They
chose to do neither (unwillingness to act decisively), and
compounded that error when they accepted Lucan's (illegal)
"dissolution" of the Moot.  The subsequent actions of the
archdukes of Vland, Antares, Ilelish, and even Deneb, and of Duke
Craig of Daibei were perhaps necessary, but definitely illegal
without the Moot meeting to dissolve the Imperium.  Also
egregious was the actions of the nobles who rallied to Margaret,
who had no legitimate claim at the time of the assassination, and
of Margaret herself, who accepted the de-facto declaration of
independence without actually proclaiming it.  Complicating the
matter was the fact of Strephon's survival; as it was a clone
that "bought it" from Dulinor, there should have been no question
of succession - if the Moot or the family knew, they should have
said something right off, and perhaps headed off the whole thing.
Lucan's failure to do so (assuming he knew) makes him a usurper,
with absolutely nothing to figleaf him into legitimacy.
Strephon's subsequent de-facto abdication was moot, and
technically deficient (as he did not _publicly_ abdicate); there
was no legitimacy to his acceptance of Norris's declaration of
independence - although you could make a shaky case that he
accepted Norris as Regent for Avery and withdrew Imperial
hegemony over the rest of the Imperium.  Avery's status as heir
is illegitimate prior to Lucan's death; questionable afterwards,
since we don't know whether Iphegenia, Varian, or Lucan had any
issue prior to that time - or whether Strephon had any other
acknowledged then-living issue.  If none of them had issue, _and_
Strephon formally adopted Avery and named him heir, then Avery is
the best claimant to the Iridium Throne.

Norris's actions to democratize the Regency were arguably legal,
as he was acting with the Emperor's sanction; however, in order
to complete the process, the nobility _must_ meet in Moot and
dissolve the Imperium - then, the power brokers of the area can
meet and form whatever kind of government they want.  Barring
that, Norris's failure to install Avery when he reached his
majority, and Avery's failure to either assert that right or
publicly abdicate, represent the final abandonment of any
legitimacy to any "Imperial" government - or any government
derived from the Imperium's legitimacy.  Certainly, Seldrian
Aledon had no legitimate claim - even as Regent - to the
leadership post she held on her true-father's death; Caranda
should not have been Regent but Emperor, as he has the most
legitimate claim through Avery.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:23:42 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Military Service

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Legate Legion wrote:

> Maybe, maybe not...  Who knows, until he or she reveals his/her gender...

Male, 20 years old

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:33:37 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions

I posted a lame million ton Battlerider that carried 32  30,000 ton riders'
(using HG). Its' fun to build the biggest, even when there is no need to do
so...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:59:27 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

Actually, I thought that most of the Japanese opposition parties were
exterminated by the fascists in the 20's and 30's. I too, think that the
Japanese have not acknowledged their WWII guilt. I still know many Chinese,
Koreans, and Fipinos that hold a grudge...., but then again I'm biased- my
last name is Kimmel...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:03:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks and economics

I like this. Especially as you can make internal, or external demountable
tanks, effectively liquid refrigerated containers. I see those on TOFC
(Trailer/container on Flatcar) trains all the time...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:15:15 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:50:51 -0400, you wrote:

>ObTrav: Has the 3i's opinion on what to do with troops who retire
>(or get invalided out, or discharged, or whatever) been spelled out?
>Say you sign on in Core and your tour is up at the Regina navy base?
>
>Do they just hand you a stack of Middle (or even Low) passages
>with your retirement check? Maybe the ones you end up with from
>the "Benefits" table represent tickets you had left after you found
>your way home, or ones you had left when you decided that "home"
>didn't mean that much to you any more.
>
>Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
>as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in 
>the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
>useful here).

There's some good stuff (even if I do say so myself) on Military Retirement
Benefits in Dark Star #2, available from Hyperbooks.com online bookstore (you'll
have to ask Terry specially, as he doesn't have it listed on his web page).

Things like Medical Care, Transport rights, Legal defence rights, rights to
Government jobs, right to use Military/Government transit hostel facilities etc.

Makes the military a sensible career choice.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:27:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Japanese troops

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Japanese troops
...
>And one shouldn't forget that the Japanese army in Manchuria kept on until
>the Soviets wiped it out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>It did?
...
>The only Russian involvement in the Pacific theater (IIRC) was a
>declaration of war just days before the Japanese surrender so the
>Soviets could grab some undefended islands north of Japan.

  AFAIK the Soviet effort against the major element of the Japanese army
was a very substantial undertaking. The big difference is that they
surrendered in droves, having received a treatment many times worse than
that in their clashes in the `30's - the Japanese army simply wasn't well
equipped by 1939 standards, and the Sovs were doing fairly well in `45.
Anyway, I'll try and look it up.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:28:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Military service

>>   I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the Vietnamese are
>> native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or
>Canucks. 
>> For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me privately.
>
>But, were we (the USA) not helping out our allies, the South Vietnamese &
>the French?  Or should we neglect our allies in their time of need?

  Wait a sec - wasn't the South abandoned to Hanoi anyway? And that's 
without getting into the interesting question of who should or shouldn't
have been intervening there (hmm, Vietnamese "intervening" in Vietnam -
now there's an interesting concept).

...
>> >WWII...  They choice to side with the Nazis in a minor way, they are as
>> >guilty as the Nazis ever were...
>>   I'm going to take a wild swing at this flamebait, but didn't WW II in
>> Europe, and the operations of the einsatzgruppen outside Greater Germany,
>> begin prior to December 1941?
>
>Yeppers...  But, yet the Swiss & the Swedes knew what was going on & only a
>small handfull did something about it...  Also, they turned over jews who
>had crossed the border to the Nazis...

  And a number of Western states didn't allow Jewish refugees fleeing Germany
to enter before the war - and they didn't have to worry about offending the
Nazi's. And quite frankly, if the Swedish and Swiss authorities _knew_ the
scale of what was happening, then so did the Western governments - ours. They
were weak and within arms (well, Wehrmacht) reach. What were our excuses?

...
>Yes, but one of a small handfull out of a whole nation...  A
>1-in-a-1,000,000...

  One individual who probably saved as many Jews from death as most
of the efforts of the Western armies, short of the Commonwealth
blocking the German drive on Egypt (and Palestine, which certainly
gives me the shudders).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:28:41 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:55:49 EDT, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Nope; No CT Vilani module. Mr. Miller was kind enough to sell me a TAS Alien
> Encyclopedia and it contained the following: Aslan,K'Kree,
> Vargr,Zhodani,Droyne,Solomani,Hiver,and Darrien. (It also had Alien Realms).

This book is pretty ideal for anyone that hasn't already shelled out cash
for many of the original CT Alien Modules (otherwise you are simply getting
text that you already have).  For good Vilani info, try to locate a copy of
the MT alien book: "Vilani & Vargr".



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:32:42 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:12:49 -0700, Legate Legion wrote:

> > From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> > >>> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
> > >>Just like the US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist
> > >>robber baron capitalist system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)
> > >It isn't? Since when?
> > >I wonder how many in the ole' USA could respond in Swedish or German?
> > 	Ich koennte meine Meinung auf Deutsch geben ... ou peut-etre en Francais
> ..
> 
> I would like to say in english to those who our soldiers & marines died to
> free their nations in the WWI & WWII & are not gratefull about it, & you
> know who you are... (No this does not mean England...)
> 
> Shut your cakeholes & bloody well bugger off...  If it was not for us (The
> USA, the Brits, the Irish, & the Candians, celtics untied for a common
> cause & to be in a good fight...) fighting & dying to save your ungratefull
> asses, you would be in a camp right now...

Calm down, before this degenerates into another Anti-American flame war.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:45:56 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Open Letter

At 08:01 PM 8/22/98 -0500, Suz wrote:
...
>t is time to put aside this discussion for the good of our 
>Traveller community here on TML.
>

I second this motion...  All in favor?





Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:01:05 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: >Vilani Alien Module ?

You are 100% right. I forgot to mention that the book was a reprint of older
books. Sorry. I didn't have any of the modules, so it was a G-Dsend and worth
every penny for me.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:41:22 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Military Service

> From: Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
> > Maybe, maybe not...  Who knows, until he or she reveals his/her
gender...
> Male, 20 years old

Thank you...

> | Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:03:51 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: A plague on all your houses

> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> > Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win &
> > they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the war
> > reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US
from
> > them...
> During my life I have seen and experienced horrors which I hope that
people 
> can't even imagine. To me this attitude (and many others expressed by
more 
> than one person) is offensive and disgraceful, it sickens me to my
stomach. 
> Real people die in wars in ways more horrible than we care to think.
There are 
> no white hats and there are no black hats. The Japanese and Germans are
no 
> more responsible for the horrors of Nanking and Achwitz than the
Isreali's and 
> Americans are for Deir Yassin and Wounded Knee. They no more deserved 
> destruction and death. War is not about justice and honour, it is about 
> expediency and politics. This will be my last post on this matter. I have
no 
> desire to remain here, goodbye.

Why thank you for your input, but I have served & served with honor in the
USMC...  I have seen the face of war, my father, & grandfather both saw the
face of war...  Hell, every male member of my family has served this
country well & honorably in the time of its most dire need...  I have never
said that the Japanese or German peoples are to blame, but their
governments were...  A subtle difference, but a major one...

In war there is only victums, on both sides...  The civilian who is back
home is as much a victum as the Marine, soldier, sailor, or airman who the
government sends out to fight in it...  As to Nanking, Achwitz, Deir
Yassin, & Wounded Knee, well men did evil & were at fault...

As for justice & honor, well war is not about those Ideas, but about the
muck that makes up what humans really are at heart, animals...

I know that the Japanese government still owns millions of dollars to the
US for WWII & should be made to repay it

See ya...

> > > Phil
> Should we hold you responsible for the fate of the Aboriginies?

Nope, do not live in OZ, as for the Native Americans, well, my Grandfather
stepped of the boat in 1900 in NYC & move to the Chicago & as such never
had any contact with them until he was 60 yo & took a trip out west...  So
I would have to safely say, that I have nothing to do with the Native
Americans, other than be dating one...
 
> > Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
> Should we hold you responisible for Deir Yassin? (you should find out the
truth 
> about militant Jewish Terrorism).

Just as long as I can hold you resonsable for all of the pogroms against
jews that have happened since 0 AD...

> Andrew etc.

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:49:09 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Japanese troops

- ----------
> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> >And one shouldn't forget that the Japanese army in Manchuria kept on
until
> >the Soviets wiped it out.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >It did?
> >The only Russian involvement in the Pacific theater (IIRC) was a
> >declaration of war just days before the Japanese surrender so the
> >Soviets could grab some undefended islands north of Japan.
>   AFAIK the Soviet effort against the major element of the Japanese army
> was a very substantial undertaking. The big difference is that they
> surrendered in droves, having received a treatment many times worse than
> that in their clashes in the `30's - the Japanese army simply wasn't well
> equipped by 1939 standards, and the Sovs were doing fairly well in `45.
> Anyway, I'll try and look it up.

From what I know, the Russians fought well against the Japanese, but their
major threat was the Nazis...  So after the Nazis were done, then they
could turn to the Japanese...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #760
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 761



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Military service
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Open Letter
Two questions....
Re: Open Letter
Re: Two questions....
Re: Open Letter
Re: Two questions....
Re: Imperial Defense Questions
Re: A plague on all your houses
Re: Two questions....
Re: Imperial Defense Questions
Mack Reynolds' "Section G" (was Re: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Retiring troops (was Re: Japanese troops)
Re: Traveller and Families
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Re: A plague on all your houses
Re: Off-topic political rant
Traveller and Families

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:53:50 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Military service

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> >>   I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the Vietnamese
are
> >> native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or
> >Canucks. 
> >> For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me privately.
> >But, were we (the USA) not helping out our allies, the South Vietnamese
&
> >the French?  Or should we neglect our allies in their time of need?
>   Wait a sec - wasn't the South abandoned to Hanoi anyway? And that's 
> without getting into the interesting question of who should or shouldn't
> have been intervening there (hmm, Vietnamese "intervening" in Vietnam -
> now there's an interesting concept).

Maybe, but as an allied nation-state we (the USA) had to intervene in
Vietnam, that plus the fact that the North rigged the voting for the left &
the people of 'Nam by & large voted not to be commie...

> >> >WWII...  They choice to side with the Nazis in a minor way, they are
as
> >> >guilty as the Nazis ever were...
> >>   I'm going to take a wild swing at this flamebait, but didn't WW II
in
> >> Europe, and the operations of the einsatzgruppen outside Greater
Germany,
> >> begin prior to December 1941?
> >Yeppers...  But, yet the Swiss & the Swedes knew what was going on &
only a
> >small handfull did something about it...  Also, they turned over jews
who
> >had crossed the border to the Nazis...
>   And a number of Western states didn't allow Jewish refugees fleeing
Germany
> to enter before the war - and they didn't have to worry about offending
the
> Nazi's. And quite frankly, if the Swedish and Swiss authorities _knew_
the
> scale of what was happening, then so did the Western governments - ours.
They
> were weak and within arms (well, Wehrmacht) reach. What were our excuses?

Our, as the US?  Well, from what I know, the US let in everyone they
could...  Or else I would not be here today...

> >Yes, but one of a small handfull out of a whole nation...  A
> >1-in-a-1,000,000...
>   One individual who probably saved as many Jews from death as most
> of the efforts of the Western armies, short of the Commonwealth
> blocking the German drive on Egypt (and Palestine, which certainly
> gives me the shudders).

This is true & I do not deny that fact, but what about the rest of his
people?  One good apple does not save a bunch of rotten ones, just like on
rotten one does not spoil a bunch of good one...
 
>         Steven Hudson

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:06:35 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

> From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com>
> > I would like to say in english to those who our soldiers & marines died
to
> > free their nations in the WWI & WWII & are not gratefull about it, &
you
> > know who you are... (No this does not mean England...)
> > Shut your cakeholes & bloody well bugger off...  If it was not for us
(The
> > USA, the Brits, the Irish, & the Candians, celtics untied for a common
> > cause & to be in a good fight...) fighting & dying to save your
ungratefull
> > asses, you would be in a camp right now...
> Calm down, before this degenerates into another Anti-American flame war.

I think we can take it...  You know we are completly nuts here in the US?

Btw, the Canucks kicked some ass in WWII, Korea, & DS/DS...  So be pround
of your nation, just as I am pround of mine...

> James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:05:19 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Open Letter

I second the motion...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:25:01 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Two questions....

I have two questions for the list....

1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold the
pages together.

2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I have
never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have Snapshot,
but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see
elsewhere, so I have to asume that the Free Trader has also changed...), and
the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser from Book II. I have seen a zillion pictures of
them from the outside, but not deckplans. Has a third party (like FASA or DGP
or Seeker games) ever printed any deckplans of these two vessels (or GDW for
that matter...)? I have Fat and Far Traders, but would love to have a Free
trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but I
can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).

thanks,

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Open Letter

Suz, 

Well put, as always.

I am actually glad that I am on the road now.  It has prevented me from
joining in on this particular discussion thread.

The diversity of viewpoints, political and religious philosophies gives
this list a unique flavor.  It also leaves us vulnerable to some
particularly unpleasantness when they clash.

I think we are all pretty sure of where we stand on certain issues, and
the venting that is occuring on the list has reached the point of being 
unpleasant.  This is no longer passionate discussion, but ranting
and, in some cases, personal attacks. Could we agree to disagree and move
back to discussions more pertinent to the TML?

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions....

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> I have two questions for the list....
> 
> 1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
> staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold the
> pages together.

Strapping type on the inside worked for me.

> 
> 2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I have
> never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have Snapshot,
> but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see
> elsewhere, so I have to asume that the Free Trader has also changed...), and
> the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser from Book II. I have seen a zillion pictures of
> them from the outside, but not deckplans. Has a third party (like FASA or DGP
> or Seeker games) ever printed any deckplans of these two vessels (or GDW for
> that matter...)? I have Fat and Far Traders, but would love to have a Free
> trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but I
> can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
> corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).

There are deckplans for the Type A2, type S, Type J, and quite a few other
small ships in 'Traders and Gunboats'.

douglas


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:06:50 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Open Letter

Look on the bright side. We live in a society that we can spout this crap
without having the FBI knocking on the door in the morning :-)  I do apoligize
for participating in this thread.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:08:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two questions....

I have that, but I only saw the Fat Trader and the Far trader in that one. I
didn't see a Free Trader. I thought Nightfall was a good product, but I wished
it had those deckplans in it...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:18:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions

In mail you write:

> We've built them though!  Someone posted the "City" class mega=frieghter a
> few months back.. about a billion tons, crew in the low 10,000s.. and the
> design worked!  We even came up with a use for the bloody things.  I've
> done a design for a billion-ton Army Transport..  the *entire* Army (close
> to 100,000 troops plus equipment) in a single ship.

And I bet that enemy ship captains *dream* of getting one of those in
their sights. Talk about your juicy targets.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:42:24 +0800
From: Benjamin Barton <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: A plague on all your houses

What has something happened to our Aborigines?  
What Fate ?   let us know what you have been told.
As another Australian,  what has this to do with Traveller?
>
>> > > Phil
>> Should we hold you responsible for the fate of the Aboriginies?
>
>Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist 
>Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:32:04 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions....

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 10:36 PM
Subject: Two questions....


>I have two questions for the list....
>
>1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
>staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold
the
>pages together.
>

Seth,
Unless you happen to be able to locate a sadle stitch stapeller I recommend
using a large needle and heavy thread. You can use the existing holes left
by the staples or add others, then just stitch the books together. Should
hold up for years.

>2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I
have
>never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have
Snapshot,
>but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see
>elsewhere, so I have to asume that the Free Trader has also changed...),
and
>the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser from Book II. I have seen a zillion pictures of
>them from the outside, but not deckplans. Has a third party (like FASA or
DGP
>or Seeker games) ever printed any deckplans of these two vessels (or GDW
for
>that matter...)? I have Fat and Far Traders, but would love to have a Free
>trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but
I
>can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
>corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).


I've seen the plans somewhere, but... They are not in Traders and Gunboats,
much to my surprise.

Give me a private mail with the program you're using to try and print out
the plans, I might be able to tell you what's wrong. It's probably just a
matter of correcting the image size when you print them. I don;t remember
d/l'ing those plans but in Photopaint I've managed to print most files out
on all of the HP deskjets here (800, 855 and 1000) without much problems.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:48:40 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense Questions


>In mail you write:
>
>> We've built them though!  Someone posted the "City" class mega=frieghter
a
>> few months back.. about a billion tons, crew in the low 10,000s.. and the
>> design worked!  We even came up with a use for the bloody things.  I've
>> done a design for a billion-ton Army Transport..  the *entire* Army
(close
>> to 100,000 troops plus equipment) in a single ship.
>

Thanks Doug, I liked that design.

>And I bet that enemy ship captains *dream* of getting one of those in
>their sights. Talk about your juicy targets.


Well it really wasn't a combat craft when I designed it. It was my answer to
one of the other threads that's been kicked around lately, "How do traders
have famillies" the City class was just that, a small town in space. It had
quite a number of Mobile Fabrication Facilitiy units included, along with a
lot of cargo space. One thing we've used it for is to plant colonies. The
colonists travel "low berth" in the cargo hold along with live stock etc.
The City takes up orbit with it's auxillaries mining either a planetoid
belt, if available, or a moon for raw material. The MFF-10's go to work
churning out the hardware for the colony. When the colonists wake up they
have a ready-made settlement. Depending on the contract, one of the "Cities"
might stay in orbit for years, providing a pre-made space-based
manufactoring facility until the colony is ready.

I came to the conclusion that they were really independant habitats with
J-drives. Kinda like a forruner to Commander-X's Planet X.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:19:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Mack Reynolds' "Section G" (was Re: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)

In mail you write:

>> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:25:04 -0600
>> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>>
>> I figure that it was the Vilani cultural mindset among the masses, whether
>> Vilani-descended or not, and the resulting tendency to stay at home and do
>> what was expected of one, that led to the creation of a class of
>> "Travellers".  It became the role of these social misfits to undertake all
>> the dangerous, unpredictable, and individualistic tasks on the margins that
>> keep an interstellar society running smoothly, so that the rest of society
>> could get on with the really important work.
>
> Interesting.  I find this reminiscent of Banks' Culture, with the Contact
> service and particularly Special Circumstances serving to absorb and
> occupy all the misfits.  In the Culture, of course, this is so the rest of
> society can get on with hedonism and political maneuvering. :) 

Hmmm. You've just reminded me of a series of stories that refs can mine
for some nasty little scenarios. 

Mack Reynold's "Section G" stories. 

"Section G" is a section of a department of the United Planets that
"doesn't exist".  The United Planets is a sort of "overgovernment" for
human space that by its charter *can't* interfere with planetary
affairs. The problem is that they've discovered a civilization coreward
of their territory. One that's *many* TLs above theirs. It's also a
socirety that is *so* caste-ridden as to effectively be a hive culture.

This wouldn't be a problem except that they've found ample evidence of
what happened to planets that tried to steal technology from the
aliens. The planets were given a methane/ammonia atmosphere by
virtually *instantaneous* interstellar teleportation. This wiped out
the populations and left the planet to re-develop life from the ground
up. 

So the UP wants to have the planets ready to deal *intelligently* with
contact, even though their charter forbids meddling. So they created
the department. Section G is a sort of special operations unit. They
make use of people with "unique" talents for covert infiltration teams.

One team that I recall fondly had your typical absent-minded scientist
type, a little girl, an ordinary looking fellow, and some others I
don't recall. The trick is that they aren't what they appear to be.

The "scientist" type is from a 3g planet. Upon being introduced to the
head of the section, who wants to know what he can possibly do on a
team, he walks over, picks up the section head's *metal* desk, and
tucks it under one arm, and strikes a casual pose leaning against the
wall with the other arm.

Section head: "That desk weighs a ton!"
   Scientist: "No, it doesn't have the heft."

The little girl is an adult from a planet where people are all
"midgets" (or whatever the term is for people who are very short but
properly proportioned) and average 3 feet tall. She has to wear a
breast binder, but does a great imitation of a little girl. She's great
for "wandering" into secure areas, or distracting guards.

The average looking guy has a hobby. He throws things. *Anything* he
can pick up easily. With deadly accuracy. 

Another member is a woman with eidetic memory. 

The rest of the folks are equally abnormal. They make a great team
because they don't *need* all the fancy gadgets. They don't have to
smuggle out documents, because they've got the lady with the memory.
Ditto for smuggling *in* plans that might be incriminating.

Throw these folks against your players and watch the fun begin.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:49:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

In mail you write:

> I'd better jump on the OT bandwagon before it leaves town.  Mostly
> about that perennial Trav topic, Japan and WWII.  We must all be
> Vilani at heart, really, forever going over our traditional arguments
> in search of consensus...

I guess I will too.

> FWIW, I can't recall _ever_ running into Japs who whined, even
> intermittently, about the two nuclear bombs.

And the folks who deplore the loss of lives conveniently forget that
the Japanese were preparing a "to the last man" defense of the home
islands. Both US *and* Japanese estimates of the "civilian" casualties
in such an invasion ran into the multiple millions. As well as reducing
all the major cities to piles of rubble. 

Compared to *that* Hiroshima and Nagasaki were minor. 

And don't forget that after Hiroshima the military was *still* in favor
of defending to the last person (not merely to the last *soldier*)
rather than surrendering. 

It took Nagasaki to get them to ask the Emperor's opinion.

This is *all* in the records. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:57:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Retiring troops (was Re: Japanese troops)

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: Has the 3i's opinion on what to do with troops who retire
> (or get invalided out, or discharged, or whatever) been spelled out?
> Say you sign on in Core and your tour is up at the Regina navy base?
>
> Do they just hand you a stack of Middle (or even Low) passages
> with your retirement check? Maybe the ones you end up with from
> the "Benefits" table represent tickets you had left after you found
> your way home, or ones you had left when you decided that "home"
> didn't mean that much to you any more.
>
> Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
> as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in 
> the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
> useful here).
>
> Does the Military reserve some space on regular transport runs for
> taking people home? Space that is usually sufficient, but sometimes
> (say at the end of the 5th Frontier War) gets overwhelmed by a sudden
> surge in people released from the military?
>
> I recall a Heinlein story where a spacer claimed a right to a ride home.

That was a Merchant Spaceman claiming the right under a specific law in
that universe. At least if the story was "The Green Hills of Earth".

> I'm imagining a retirement benefit, an ID card or token with your
> designated homeworld on it. Present it to any naval transport heading
> towards your homeworld, and (space permitting) they'll give you a bunk.
> You're supposed to turn it over to a Navy (or Army, or whatever) 
> representative when you get home, but I can imagine some retirees
> keeping it as a memento (or to scam some free rides with later).

More to the point, check "Glory Road". It had the detail that a soldier
being mustered out at a location outside the US had a year during which
his discharge papers allowed him to ride military transports on a
"space available" basis until he reached the states.

The is (or at least *was*) a "Military Space A Travel FAQ" that deals
with exactly this subject. 

Assuming we project this forward to the Imperium, you get to hitch
rides on non-combat vessels for a period of time after your discharge.
This is subject to their having the space available. And to some extent
to whether or not you can argue that it is going to get you closer to
"home". 

Military personnel on leave can use the same system by using their ID
cards and leave papers.

Military dependents can also use the system, by using their dependent
ID, but they rank lower on the priority scale than active military on
leave. And I'm not sure where discharged personnel rate. 

Given the size of the Imperium, and the time it takes to move around, I
rather expect that the Imperial forces give you at least a couple of
years (I might go as far as 5 years). It doesn't really cost them
anything as they have to *budget* as if the ships will be full anyway. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:44:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller and Families

In mail you write:

> Other possible side-effects of Anagathics IMTU:

> 4. Psychological risks. Memory overload? Gradual erosion over
> centuries of one's sense of self? Resistance of brain tissue to
> anagathic effects? Some unnoticed psychological effect of the
> anagathic drugs themselves?

Well, one *big* limit on longevity is the fact that unlike cells in the
rest of the body, nerve cells in the central nervous system *don't*
reproduce. 

So for the rest of the body, anagathics can work by doing something as
"simple" as restoring the teleomeres[1] on the ends of DNA strands, or
preventing them from being lost during duplication.

But for the brain (and spinal cord?) the problem is doubly difficult.
First of all, the cells don't replicate. So when they finally die, they
don't get replaced. And add to that the "blood-brain barrier". This is
a membrane that seperates the brain from the bloodstream. It's *very*
difficult to get chemicals to cross this barrier. It's intended for the
protection of the brain from things like infections, but it makes
getting drugs to it a real pain.

So, one limit on anagathics could be that they "merely" ensure the
proper duplication of DNA. So while your body stays young, your brain
slowly loses cells.

This happens *very* slowly. I think I recall a figure of something like
10% loss by age 90. Extreme radiation exposure can greatly increase
this. As can head injuries.

And the brain has a lot of "spare" capacity (but nowhere *near* the
"only 10% is used" stuff you keep hearing, that's based on what they
knew in the 1930s!). So the effects will take a while to show up.

I'd model this by requiring aging rolls against Intelligence, but at a
reduced rate. I'd say that Education might also be affected (loss of
memory). 

Anagathics that counter this could have *really* weird side effects.
Just look up the effects of various disorders caused by brain chemistry
imbalances. Depression, Bipolar disorder (used to be called
manic-depression, but was changed because it really *isn't* related to
ordinary depression), various schizoid and psychotic disorders
(including megalomamia and paranoia). 

And some have speculated that re-growing brain cells could have a side
effect of wiping memory. So without memory storage and transfer
technology (which has other uses that players won't want to be on the
receiving end of[2]) an "immortal" may eventually have to choose between
death of his body and death of his personality.

BTW, the same concerns about loss of brain cells apply to anyone who
tries cloning new bodies and transplanting the old brain into it.

[1] teleomeres are "junk" DNA at the ends of DNA strands that are there
solely because every time a strand is copies a little bit from the end
*doesn't* get copied. So this "junk data" allows for multiple
duplications before any real information gets lost. Much of aging is
thought to be due to the gradual loss of genetic info once the
teleomeres are gone.

[2] If you can record memories, you can in effect "read minds". You can
*certainly* find out anything a person has in their long-term memory.
And if you can write memories back into an empty brain, you can likely
re-write ones that are already there.

If you can access *short-term* memory, you've effectively got
telepathy. See Spider Robinson's "Death-Killer" for a sample of the
possibilities. 

And this would make life just a bit *too* interesting for players. So I
advise against mind-recording, mind-wipe, and mind-write technologies.
Unless the first folks to get them are *angels*, the result is worse
than any dictatorship ever imagined.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:04:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
>
>Actually, I thought that most of the Japanese opposition parties were
>exterminated by the fascists in the 20's and 30's. I too, think that the
>Japanese have not acknowledged their WWII guilt. I still know many Chinese,
>Koreans, and Fipinos that hold a grudge...., but then again I'm biased- my
>last name is Kimmel...:-)

  A lot of them just languished in jail, plus leftists like labour activists
and academics could simply ride things out by keeping their mouths shut -
the political police (Kemputai?) were pretty efficient but focussed only on
vocal dissent, IIRC.

  The government certainly refuses to discuss war guilt or reparations to
this day (at least since the "final" settlement with the US occupation
regime); FWIW, everything I've read indicates that all but their own
nationalist fringe ("The Japan That Can Say No"?) has accepted their
responsibility and their punishment.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:30:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A plague on all your houses

...
>I know that the Japanese government still owns millions of dollars to the
>US for WWII & should be made to repay it

  As Kenji pointed out, the "final" status (i.e. the current situation as
viewed by the Japanese gov't) is that agreed to/imposed by the US occupation
authorities, regarding both war criminals and reparations. Their current
position appears to be more closely tied to domestic concerns than the actual
cash outlay required to modestly compensate the few surviving victims. I've
no idea about US claims to reparations, although those would be much more
likely to have been extinguished by that final settlement.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:24:50 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com> wrote

I probably should not get involved but....

>    Sales taxes in the US run between 4.5 to 8 percent. 

Or more accurately sales taxes in the US typically run between 4.5 to 8
percent, but may be lower or nonexistant in some areas (New Hampshire,
Oregon, Alaska) or sligtly higher in a few places (What is the rate in
New Orleans?)

>    In any case, the preferred economic system is the one that works 
> best for the people. the most popular would no doubt involve the      > delivery of a certain amount of gold bars to your door each week....

What and make me go to all the trouble of depositing them, can't you
just deposit money in my bank accounts & automatically pay all my bills?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:54:02 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Traveller and Families

Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote

> (show of hands:  how many of your characters, regardless of their 
> ages, have *ever* been married or had children? PE characters don't 
> count), so in the long run they are not a problem.

Of the four Traveller charecters I have played FTF in the past 4 or 5
years most were or had been in LTR's and/or had children or wards.  This
is one of the more interesting aspects of role playing (as opposed to
roll playing). 

I happen to think that most player charecters are the product of
dysfunctional families  - why else are they out their risking their neck
if not because of some suconscious sense that their life or death won't
really matter :)

Sir Sigrid Ottawa (female ex Mechanic, ex Belter, ex Scout) started the
campaign the product of a recent divorce & ended up in a relationship
with a high noble.  At the time of her death they had a serious side
relationship going although his position would not permit him to marry
her.  She also was in the process of becoming legal guardian to her 17
year old half sister after their fathers death & despite the fact that
said sister had tried to kill her.  The fact that it was due to Zhodhani
deep conditioning or not forgiving attempted murder takes a commitment
to family values.

Baron Trier dehah Tarlineal, (male Imperial Navy Flight branch) a
Darmine, was single at the start of the campaign & was denied
reenlistment when Admiral Count So & So's daughter complained that Trier
wasn't monagamous enough for her.  In the course of the campaign he
happened to end up in a political marriage of convenience to another
part Darmine minor noble which did not in any way hinder his very
promiscuous bisexual escapades.  He had no children he was aware of.

Fred Grandy (male ex Merchant, ex Rougue, ex Agent - the boy next door
type, except for being a cannibal) gradually foungd himself growing
attracted to another PC (despite the fact that she would actually let
sunlight strike her body & did not enjoy the other, other, white meat). 
He proposed marriage to her, and did not receive an answer, mere hours
before ending us mostly dead (but possibly still revivable on a high
tech world) in a gunfight.

Orina Melinte (female Merchant, age 38 ) had an 18 year old son who had
just run off to join the Imperial Marines.  She was a bit scarred from
past relationships & did not consider immediate family important.  As a
Gypsy (Earth Romany are out their among the stars in that Traveller
universe) she thought that non Rom were not really the same sort of
people as Rom (who were family) and that taking advantage of them for
the benefit of the people was acceptable.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #761
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 762



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Manchuria
Re: Two questions....
Re:Imperial "Constitutional" Debate
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Free Trader deckplans
Re: Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)
Re: Convertible fuel tanks and economics
re: Traveller and Families
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761
Re: Military Benefits
RE: Open Letter
Re: Mack Reynold's "Section G"
Re: Travellers and families

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:16:44 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Manchuria

>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
>Subject: Re: Japanese troops
...
>> >The only Russian involvement in the Pacific theater (IIRC) was a
>> >declaration of war just days before the Japanese surrender so the
>> >Soviets could grab some undefended islands north of Japan.
...
>From what I know, the Russians fought well against the Japanese, but their
>major threat was the Nazis...  So after the Nazis were done, then they
>could turn to the Japanese...

  The Soviets killed around 20,000 Japanese troops in clashes in fall `39,
mostly before Germany invaded Poland. of course many Chinese would argue
that WW II was already long underway by this time.

  The Soviets, _in accordance with their commitments at the Yalta meeting_,
invaded Manchukuo August 9, 1945. Over a million men extensively equipped
(and using US trucks, boots, food and av-gas, of course) would encircle
the Kwantung Army and neutralize it within a week, killing nearly one
hundred thousand Japanese troops in the process. By that time those troops
(400,000+, although not all available for redeployment) represented the only
strategic reserves outside the home islands as well as garrisoning the only
industrial capacity with access to resources, although doing anything with
those capabilities was moot given the effective destruction of the Japanese
merchant marine.

  By some observers, this had more to with the Japanese surrender than
the nuclear bombings (not at all sure about that, myself). In any case
the Soviet involvement cannot seriously be considered minor, although it
clearly was of significantly less importance in reversing Japanese
expansion* than the US immense efforts.

 * (Commonwealth efforts were still crucial in preventing the Japanese
from over-running a wider defensive perimeter and major industrial
and raw material assets)

        Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:41:15 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Two questions....

>2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I
have
>never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have
Snapshot,
>but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see
>elsewhere, so I have to asume that the Free Trader has also changed...),
and
>the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser from Book II. I have seen a zillion pictures of
>them from the outside, but not deckplans. Has a third party (like FASA or
DGP
>or Seeker games) ever printed any deckplans of these two vessels (or GDW
for
>that matter...)? I have Fat and Far Traders, but would love to have a Free
>trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but
I
>can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
>corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).

Seeker Gaming Systems release a series of deckplans for use with 25mm
figures. They included Subsidised Merchant, System Defence Boat and Gazelle
class close escort. I don't know if they're on the net but I do have an
address for them, P.O. Box 519, Mtn. Home, ID. 83647-0519, and a phone
number (208) 587-2986.
Hope this is some help.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 05:41:21 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re:Imperial "Constitutional" Debate

   A big problem here is that the actual Warrant wasn't written till well
after so much Imperial history.  Plus, assuming its canonicity, how many times
has it been amended, if at all.  Any Emperor could have well written up his
own.  The real "validity" of the Imperium was de facto rather than de jure.
The claims of the 3I to the RoM or Ziru Sirka are pretty thin.  Since there's
no mention of the Warrant in the earlier Traveller products (in real life
because it hadn't been written yet), i'd say that the Warrant is probably a
musty old document on Capital that noone has remembered in about a thousand
years.  "Hey Eneri, look at this!"
   There is one thing about the Rebellion and Dulinor and the Right of
Assassination that has shaped my opinion. It is crystal clear statements in
the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Ref's Section.  Could any of the particulars
(Marc or Loren) say who wrote these? 

Pg. 49 MT IE.  
   -Assasination, Right of: The right of assassination is certainly a
legitimate means    
   of ascending to the throne, despite the implications of the SMART library
data 
   entry.  [this part is the kicker]  ****** Dulinor acted entirely properly,
as was his 
   right as an archduke.******  Was the killing justified? Was Strephon
leading the 
   Imperium down the path to destruction?  Was Dulinor capable of turning
events 
   around and restoring the Imperium to its prior glory?  Who Knows?

Also... pg 50

   -Moot, The: The Moot is not as important as the SMART library data entry
implies.    
   While the Moot does confirm emperors and high noble appointments, it did
not act 
   to confirm those emperors who ascended by the right of assassination.  Is
Dulinor 
   then, the proper emperor of the divided Imperium?  Imperial law is somewhat
fuzzy 
   on this point, and there exists in the Imperium no body which has the
actual power 
   to decide the question.  The answer will come de facto rather than de jure;
that is, 
   is Dulinor succeeds in reconsolidating the shattered Imperium, history may 
   recognize him as a legitimate emperor. 
       If not...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:57:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

...
>And the folks who deplore the loss of lives conveniently forget that
>the Japanese were preparing a "to the last man" defense of the home
>islands. Both US *and* Japanese estimates of the "civilian" casualties
>in such an invasion ran into the multiple millions. As well as reducing
>all the major cities to piles of rubble. 
>
>Compared to *that* Hiroshima and Nagasaki were minor. 

  There was quite an interesting article in a recent JMH that looked at
the origins of the "million Allied casualties" figure, and concluded
that it was an informed SWAG that was probably the best info going, and
accurate enough with hindsight (it might have been too low). Given the
nuclear option I've yet to hear why the US should have chosen not to
bomb Hiroshima instead of sticking to the planned landings.

  You're quite right in indicating that Japanese losses would have
been staggeringly large, although I wouldn't expect the US to be held
responsible for what the Japanese insisted on inflicting on themselves.

  Luckily, by Trav TL's you need to be pretty well equipped to handle
combat armoured troops (at least in CT Striker), so civilians have to
try fairly hard to make themselves worthwhile targets.

>And don't forget that after Hiroshima the military was *still* in favor
>of defending to the last person (not merely to the last *soldier*)
>rather than surrendering. 

  Admittedly they were largely second rate troops, but the Kwantung
Army did surrender en masse, which may very well have been indicative
of their assessment of the larger state of affairs. AFAIK, no credibly
conclusive answer has been reached about when the Japanese would have
surrendered, and in the current circumstances I won't venture an opinion.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 05:57:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Free Trader deckplans

There are deckplans (along w/ pretty neat descriptions of the areas, complete
w/ pictures and diagrams) of the 200 dt Beowulf Free Trader in DGPs Starship
Operators Manual.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:38:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)

In mail you write:

> Simon Early wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> IMTU, every anagathic found so far causes sterility as a side-effect.
>
> But a forward-thinking Archon (or PC) will have deposited genetic 
> material in a cryo-vault so that a new heir can be found if (and I 
> stress, IF) a child by my new political-alliance spouse becomes a 
> necessity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Of course - with two reminders:
>
> 1. You're not breeding with your political-alliance spouse if she's
> an immortal as well. Anagathics + female pregnancy hormones
> do not mix, at least not in any way that will create a survivable
> womb environment.

It's perfectly possible to store *ova*. We do it now. Ditto for
fertilizing them with stored sperm. And for fertilizing them in a test
tube and implanting the fertilized in a host mother. All things we can
do right now.

> 2. Immortals don't have kids. This is a cultural view that just happens
> to match the usual state of reality. If you're the supreme leader and
> can get away with anything then fine, but it's often dangerous to go
> against your people's cultural biases.

> Immortals don't have children or heirs. They are the embodiment of
> whatever dynasty they wished to found, it lives and dies with them.

I can see the genetic material being stored by some of them against an
accident or eventual death. Once they die the material is used to
create an heir. 

But this wouldn't be all that common. It'd require a person with a
*much* longer term view than most folks.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:17:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks and economics

In mail you write:

> There has been considerable effort expended by several contributors to this
> list, aimed at determining the cost effectiveness and viability of ships
> with jump numbers above Jump-1.  I've been doing some reading in
> here-and-now merchant marine shipping.  One point that stuck out is the
> facility with which these ships trade fuel-on-board for cargo deadweight
> capacity and vice versa, depending on the requirements of their route.
> Similarly, the large class of Ore/Bulk/Oil (OBO) carriers use cargo spaces
> that can, with a certain amount of cleaning, be used for anything from
> grain to crude oil to industrial ores.
>
> I looked into the ship construction rules in CT, FF&S, and GURPS Vehicles
> (2d Ed), and I can see no reason why fuel tanks (especially for H2) can't
> be fitted with hatches and used as auxiliary cargo holds.

Well, the big problem is that LH2 is a cryogenic liquid, which leads to
certain handling problems. 20 K is one *low* temperature. 253 C *below*
zero.

Also, Hydrogen being a *very* small molecule will leak through any sort
of normal seal as if it wasn't even there. 

But I will grant you that normal tanks are already set up for this. You
might run into trouble with a cargo like grain because of the
insulation on the tanks. A little bit of moisture produces some heat
from fermentation type activity. Normally this would escape. But not in
an LH2 tank! So fire is more likely, unless you store the grain in a
dry nitrogen atmosphere (which is a good idea anyway).

BTW, I just recalled an *important* detail regarding liquid hydrogen
storage. They learned the hard way early in the Apollo program that
there are *two* forms of the hydrogen molecule. 

In one, the spin axes of the atoms point the same direction. In the
other, they point in opposite directions. One has more energy than the
other. The higher energy form will spotaneously convert to the low
energy form, releasing the energy difference as heat. And this is
enought to *boil* LH2. 

So they have to run the LH2 past a catalyst that converts it all to the
low energy form. 

Nasty way to sabotage a ship is to remove the catalyst from the fuel
system. They'll fill the tanks, start for jump and have the tanks
venting madly (or even rupturing!) within the hour!

> Converting from fuel tankage to cargo hold:  Pump as much remaining fuel as
> possible into another tank.  Either vent the remainder to vacuum (in
> orbit), *slowly* vent in controlled amounts of outside air and combust the
> residue into water vapor (oxygen atmosphere), or vent it directly into a
> reducing atmosphere.

Fill the tank with a nitrogen or other inert gas, as the cargo won't
need oxygen, and the nitrogen will prevent problems with some cargos
reacting with oxygen.

BTW, oxygen and hydrogen only burn in a fairly narrow range of O2/H2
ratios. Outside that range they react slowly if at all. So you can vent
the tank to ambient pressure, then run oxygen thru a grid like on a
catalytic heater and it'll quietly, harmlessly convert it to water and
heat. 

But it'd be easier to just pump it down to a near vacuum and then fill
with something inert.

> Converting from aux cargo hold back to fuel tankage:  Remove all solid
> waste (dunnage, scrap, residual cargo, etc.).  Steam-clean all inside
> surfaces.  Vent remaining atmosphere to vacuum (in orbit) or pump out into
> ship's life support system (on surface).  Fill tank with H2 and check
> purity.  If necessary, recirculate fuel through fuel purifier, either
> onboard or ashore.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:32:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Traveller and Families

 Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote:

>What kind of family life do Traveller characters typically have?  Take, for
>instance, the difference between a subsidized merchant and a free trader.
>The reaction I usually get to the merchant is, "What, be tied down to a
>specified route?  Where's the adventure in that?"  But consider:  the
>merchant can have a home and a family on one of the worlds on his route,
>and still expect to see them once in a while.  Most free traders I know
>leave their notional "homeworlds", never to return.  Does everyone wait
>into their 50's (anagathics or no) to retire and have a family?

Check out the write up at http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/kira.html

This describes the reaction of one of my players' characters to merchant
shipping and relationships.

Personally, I love the CJ Cherryh style Merchanter's and believe you could
use them as a template for Traveller, especially when they operate on a
fixed route...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:58:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>Well my legal training was over 15 years ago and I didn't pursue it as a
>career and NZ is still bound by precident from a superior court (at least
>it was
>15 years ago :*>). I guess its another case of being divided by our common
>language (kind of like how the US got to keep attornies while the rest of
>us got
>lumped with solicitors)

One of the girls at my secondary school (11-16) had an interest in
following a legal career, and looked at our two week work experience
placement at the age of fifteen as an opportunity to further this ambition.
On her form she indicated that she was interested in soliciting as a career.

In the UK soliciting has a completely different meaning, and you can be
locked up for it ;-)

Fortunately, the teachers decided to give her a placement in a legal firm
instead....

One country divided by a common language?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:45:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In Britain, this resulted in a *lot* of people opting to move elsewhere
>to avoid the taxes (Arthur C. Clarke being one of the more famous
>cases). I don't know what it's done in Sweden, but it *is* a possibility to be
>considered. "Brain Drain" as the Brits called it can really hurt a
>country.

The other thing you have to consider is thatalthough the social welfare
provisions in Europe tend to be better than the US (IMO) , the cost of
living is higher. For example, we pay roughly the same amount in pounds
sterling as you pay in dollars for electrical equipment. Bear in mind the
exchange rate is something around 1 GBP to 1 USD. ... Similarly, cars are
significantly more expensive, as is fuel (*).

Dom

PS A few years ago I saw some work an economic's student friend was doing
for their disseration at the end of their degree - they looked a
differential oil prices, and proposed the theory that if the US Government
taxed fuel (Petrol/Diesel) to the same extent as most European countries)
the entire national debt could be paid off in less than two months.
Unfortunately, it would probably cripple the economy doing so... I've
always wondered if that was still true?

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:18:31 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:02:47 -0400, you wrote:

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: A plague on all your houses
>
>From:           	"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
>Date sent:      	Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:06:00 -0700
>
>> > From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
>
>> Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win &
>> they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the war
>> reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US from
>> them...
>
>During my life I have seen and experienced horrors which I hope that people 
>can't even imagine. To me this attitude (and many others expressed by more 
>than one person) is offensive and disgraceful, it sickens me to my stomach.

Fine. *You* didn't start a brutal and unprovoked war of agression, nor did you
support it (as far as I can tell :-).

On the other hand, I see the whining of second guessing revisionists, and of the
supposedly poor put upon Japanese, about how awful the A-Bombs were. To which I
say, garbage.

No, I wasn't there ... and, I guess, you weren't either. But I know people who,
in 1945, were young enough to be *bloody* grateful that they wouldn't have to
either a) invade the Japanese Home Islands or b) continue fighting the maniacal
little bastards in the SW Pacific.

They didn't care for the rights or wrongs of it ... they only wanted to survive.

If *you* had been there, and if *you* had been earmarked for the first wave onto
the beaches for Olympic, Coronet or any other late 1945 operation against the
Japs, well, then I guess you might have the right to say "I'd rather have died
than have the A-Bombs dropped" ...

Since (and I'm only guessing this, correct me if I'm wrong), *you* weren't so
designated, then, well, I still say tough luck to the Japs. And note that *I*
didn't make the reply you have quoted as mine anyway.

>Real people die in wars in ways more horrible than we care to think. There are 

Yes, and governments have the right - and, goddamnit, the *responsibility* - to
end them with as few casualties to *their own citizens* as possible. FDR and
Truman had no responsibilities to the Japs ... only to the US and Allied troops
(and civilians) who *would* have died if an invasion had gone ahead. All other
considerations are secondary.

>white hats and there are no black hats. The Japanese and Germans are no 
>more responsible for the horrors of Nanking and Achwitz than the Isreali's and 

No, the individual Japanese and Germans who stood up and opposed those things
weren't ... the rest, well, sorry, but they should have. I know its not fair, no
one ever said it was. But it is ludicrous to expect the Western Allies to pursue
a policy or strategy that saves the lives of their enemies by killing more of
their own citizens.

If you don't agree with this, well, might I suggest that the next war you see
that NZ gets involved in, or seems *about* to get involved in, that you offer
your services as a volunteer to die in some other poor sods place who would die
because of your scruples. Then and only then would you have the right to take
the moral high ground.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:21:53 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 04:56:23 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:53:50 -0700
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
>Subject: Re: Military service
>
>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>> >>   I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the Vietnamese
>are
>> >> native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or
>> >Canucks. 
>> >> For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me privately.
>> >But, were we (the USA) not helping out our allies, the South Vietnamese
>&
>> >the French?  Or should we neglect our allies in their time of need?
>>   Wait a sec - wasn't the South abandoned to Hanoi anyway? And that's 
>> without getting into the interesting question of who should or shouldn't
>> have been intervening there (hmm, Vietnamese "intervening" in Vietnam -
>> now there's an interesting concept).
>
>Maybe, but as an allied nation-state we (the USA) had to intervene in
>Vietnam, that plus the fact that the North rigged the voting for the left &
>the people of 'Nam by & large voted not to be commie...

Uh, wait a moment. You must be aware of some secret vote that was taken on the
matter that no-one else in the real world is.

The "people" of Vietnam were *supposed* to get the chance to make such a vote
after the Geneva Accords in 1956, supposedly by 1958 IIRC ... the US encouraged
a small clique of anti-communist thugs who had no popular support to prevent
this occurring in the south. Why? Well, as even the US acknowledged (privately)
at the time, Ho would have won by a landslide ... there would have been no
*need* to rig the votes ... he was a genuine war hero who had rid the country of
the French.
Phil

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:23:25 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 04:56:23 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:42:24 +0800
>From: Benjamin Barton <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: A plague on all your houses
>
>What has something happened to our Aborigines?  
>What Fate ?   let us know what you have been told.
>As another Australian,  what has this to do with Traveller?
>>
>>> > > Phil
>>> Should we hold you responsible for the fate of the Aboriginies?
>>
>>Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist 
>>Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs

No, its not something *I* said ... I know that the Koori (let's be politically
correct here) survived the white "invasion" ... about as well as the American
Indian did.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 08:36:35 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits


>On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:50:51 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
>>as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in
>>the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
>>useful here).
>
>There's some good stuff (even if I do say so myself) on Military Retirement
>Benefits in Dark Star #2, available from Hyperbooks.com online bookstore
(you'll
>have to ask Terry specially, as he doesn't have it listed on his web page).
>
>Things like Medical Care, Transport rights, Legal defence rights, rights to
>Government jobs, right to use Military/Government transit hostel facilities
etc.
>
>Makes the military a sensible career choice.
>
>Phil


Just so you know, they pay your way back to your "Home of Record".  The
place you lived when you enlisted/joined the military.  Oh, and Phil there
is another benefit that you left off....free burial with a head stone and an
Honor Guard.  Please, lets not forget that one.  Gives my wife someplace to
go in her old age.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:23:14 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Open Letter

Yes, mum. 

Sorry....

Shutting up now....

MJD

(images of finger-wagging Suzette plague me for days....)

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:49:52 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Mack Reynold's "Section G"

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Section G is a sort of special operations unit. They
>make use of people with "unique" talents for covert infiltration teams.

Not quite. Most of the operators are straight James Bond types. The
problem is that it takes years of observation and subtle training (just
imagine how difficult it is to train someone to be an effective secret
agent without him knowing that he is being trained!) before they dare
induct a potential recruit because the secret they are guiding is so crucial
that they can't afford even one "bad apple". They are always understaffed.
So one of their top supervisors comes up with the idea of a "Special
Talents" group, using computers to track down reliable people with, well,
special talents.
 
>One team that I recall fondly had your typical absent-minded scientist
>type, a little girl, an ordinary looking fellow, and some others I
>don't recall. The trick is that they aren't what they appear to be.
> 
>The "scientist" type is from a 3g planet.

But he is also a genuine scientist, able to wrangle invitations to planets
that would not otherwise allow visitors.
> 
>The little girl is an adult from a planet where people are all
>"midgets" (or whatever the term is for people who are very short but
>properly proportioned) and average 3 feet tall. She has to wear a
>breast binder, but does a great imitation of a little girl.

Yeah, seeing her running around bouncing her little ball (concealing a
hypodermic needle with memory-wipe drug) and chanting "Three little girls
in blue, tra la la" is sooo cute...

>She's great for "wandering" into secure areas, or distracting guards.

More to the point, she is an olympic class gymnast and can perform
amazing acrobatic feats. The scientist has a trick of throwing her up
to third story windows and at guards.
 
>The average looking guy has a hobby. He throws things. *Anything* he
>can pick up easily. With deadly accuracy. 
> 
>Another member is a woman with eidetic memory. 

A married couple. He is a famous chef and can likewise wrangle invitations
to almost any planet.
 
>The rest of the folks are equally abnormal.

My favorite is the guy who is the luckiest man in all of human space.

Lucky Guy: "Whew! That was lucky!"
Girl: "Lucky! I noticed that you were in trouble and clobbered the
guy who was just about to deck you!"
Lucky Guy: "Yeah, wasn't that a piece of luck for me?"

Then there is the best bull-whip artist in human space.

>Throw these folks against your players and watch the fun begin.

I once worked on a team of friendly NPCs in my fantasy campaign based on
this idea. I never got around to using them, but the basic idea was that
they should all appear to be dead useless as allies. One was a guy who
"could imitate any bird in the world". What the PCs weren't going to
find out until much later was that he could actually communicate with
the birds.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:03:26 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Travellers and families

Leonard Erickson writes:

>And some have speculated that re-growing brain cells could have a side
>effect of wiping memory.

Since the technology dosen't exist, it is up to the Ref to decide if it
does or not. In some of my science fiction/superhero scenarios I've used
an "Immortality Virus" that is tailormade to an individual (it dies if
it leaves the body) and replaces dead cells whenever it finds them,
including brain cells. The new cells are naturally empty, but there is
enough redundancy in the brain that it dosen't matter (severe trauma
will wipe some content beyond recovery (ane really severe trauma will
kill, of course)).

I haven't used it in my TU yet, and I'm not quite sure I wan't to make
it available. If I did, I would propably make it hideously expensive
and/or TL 16 technology.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #762
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 763



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Shameless Plug (was Re: Mack Reynolds' "Section G") 
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Fleets & regiments
Re: Traveller and families
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #757
Re: Two Questions...
Re: Imperial Defense questions
Re: Conspiricies and Meson Weapons
Other Famous SF Warriors 
Re: Two questions.... 
Contact! Romany [long] (was Re: Traveller and Families)
Stop the off-topic hate
[none]
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
[ad][www][zine] Freelance Traveller has been updated (8/23/98)
RE: Two questions....
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:08:01 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Shameless Plug (was Re: Mack Reynolds' "Section G") 

>
>Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:19:43 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Mack Reynolds' "Section G" (was Re: Conformity and Vilani
Cultural Influences)
>
>So the UP wants to have the planets ready to deal *intelligently* with
>contact, even though their charter forbids meddling. So they created
>the department. Section G is a sort of special operations unit. They
>make use of people with "unique" talents for covert infiltration teams.
>
>One team that I recall fondly had your typical absent-minded scientist
>type, a little girl, an ordinary looking fellow, and some others I
>don't recall. The trick is that they aren't what they appear to be.
>
>The "scientist" type is from a 3g planet. Upon being introduced to the
>head of the section, who wants to know what he can possibly do on a
>team, he walks over, picks up the section head's *metal* desk, and
>tucks it under one arm, and strikes a casual pose leaning against the
>wall with the other arm.
>
>Section head: "That desk weighs a ton!"
>   Scientist: "No, it doesn't have the heft."
>
>The little girl is an adult from a planet where people are all
>"midgets" (or whatever the term is for people who are very short but
>properly proportioned) and average 3 feet tall. She has to wear a
>breast binder, but does a great imitation of a little girl. She's great
>for "wandering" into secure areas, or distracting guards.
>
>The average looking guy has a hobby. He throws things. *Anything* he
>can pick up easily. With deadly accuracy. 
>
>Another member is a woman with eidetic memory. 
>
>The rest of the folks are equally abnormal. They make a great team
>because they don't *need* all the fancy gadgets. They don't have to
>smuggle out documents, because they've got the lady with the memory.
>Ditto for smuggling *in* plans that might be incriminating.
>
>Throw these folks against your players and watch the fun begin.

Re:  GURPS Traveller

For those of you who aren't familiar with or don't see the utility of
GURPS, this kind of scenario can be created in an easy, simple, and clean
fashion, using the advantages/disadvantages in the basic set:

High ST and Skinny (to keep the normal human appearance)
Dwarf
High DX and Throwing skill (though any version of Traveller could do this,
too)
Eidetic Memory, 2 levels

The other, perhaps less obvious, benefit of GURPS is that all characters
are constructed by design, rather than by chance.  This isn't always
necessary or desirable, but it is nice for creating the "referee special"
for a particular purpose.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:17:39 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

Christopher Thrash writes:

>I've been doing some reading in here-and-now merchant marine shipping. One
>point that stuck out is the facility with which these ships trade fuel-on-
>board for cargo deadweight capacity and vice versa, depending on the
>requirements of their route. Similarly, the large class of Ore/Bulk/Oil
>(OBO) carriers use cargo spaces that can, with a certain amount of
>cleaning, be used for anything from grain to crude oil to industrial ores.
>
>I looked into the ship construction rules in CT, FF&S, and GURPS Vehicles
>(2d Ed), and I can see no reason why fuel tanks (especially for H2) can't
>be fitted with hatches and used as auxiliary cargo holds.

For one thing, fuel tanks contain baffles that would prevent you from
using them for solid cargo.

>Granted, fuel tanks are more expensive than cargo holds (which generally
>cost nothing, in fact), and there is some wasted space, ranging from 5%
>in FF&S (per collapsible tanks) to 10% in VE2 (0.15ft^3/gal).

Collapsible tanks are the reverse; tanks that can be installed in cargo
space and used for extra fuel. That is canonical, but there is one problem:
You can't use the fuel directly for the jump. Don't ask me why; I've never
been able to figure out an adequate explanation. But the rules clearly state
that it can't be done. Possibly the same reason why you can't use fuel tanks
at least for liquid cargo (whatever that may be).

Demountable tanks can be used directly, but it takes quite a while (several
days, maybe even a week IIRC) to mount and demount them.

Hmm. Maybe you can use fuel tanks for liquid cargoes, but the switch takes
so long (cleaning the tanks) that it would eat up the profits?

>The question I put to the list, particularly those who have done the
>extensive cost analyses, is this:  how would converting the unused portion
>of a route merchant's fuel tankage to cargo on short legs (less than
>maximum jump rating) affect the cost of operating those high jump ships? 

Operating costs would be the same, but the bank payments and return on
investment will still be based on a more expensive ship (bigger jump
drive, higher TL), so they would not be able to compete with ships built
specifically for those jump lengths.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:33:43 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Fleets & regiments

Seth writes:

>Note: these are the active fleets assigned to the subsectors, on the eve of
>the rebellion. The book mentions that there are reserve numbered fleets in
>each subsector, but does not list them. In addition there is the named fleet
>for the sector; in this case I have to asume that it is named The Empty
>Quarter Fleet as again the book does not list them. The book implies that
>sectors with smaller amounts of fleets (like this one) use the named fleet as
>merely an administrative echelon of command, and not an operational level.

THe information is slightly contradictory. The way it reads to me, the
named fleet of each sector is just a collective name for all the fleets
of that sector. OTOH, the Corridor Fleet is specifically said to consist
of four fleets (with numbers given), none of which are identical to the
16 fleets shown as stationed in Corridor. OTTH the Corridor fleet and
the Core Fleet appears to be the only named fleets with separate numbered
fleets (every other numbered fleet is shown on the map, mostly one to a
subsector). And the Corridor Fleet that Lucan orders away from Corridor
seems, by implication, to contain all numbered fleets (and subsector
fleets) stationed there (I mean, "stripping" Corridor of 4 out of 20
fleets (or 4 out of 28 if we count the subsector fleets too) would hardly
leave Corridor helpless).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:47:10 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller and families

Christopher Thrash writes:
>Now, for essentially the first time, we have to ask, "What happens when Free
>Trader Captain Nicole Fearless brings along her husband the artist and the
>kids?"

For one thing, her earning potential is reduced by the number of cabins the
family occupies and her expenses are up by the life support cost for the
family. Bringing up children on a spaceship is much more expensive in the
TU than in, say, Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:59:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #757

Phillip McGregor writes:

>>From: dberry@hooked.net
>>Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm wrote:
>>
>>>Japan was on the verge of surrender,
>>
>>This is unreal.  The Japanese continued resisting *after* the second bomb!
>>When the Emperor ordered the surrender, there was an abortive coup attempt
>>to force the war to continue.

What I'm about to say is based on information for which I cannot vouch. The
last time I was involved in this discussion I was told that the Japanese
refused to surrender _unconditionally_. At the time when the first bomb
was dropped, the only condition they still insisted on was that the
Emperor's life should be inviolable.

Now, if that is true, the situation appears to be quite different from the
one Doug and Phillip believes in. If the only alternatives really were to
bomb or to invade, then a case can certainly be made justifying the bomb.
But if the alternative was between plea bargaining with one war criminal
and killing hundred of thousands of people, then I wonder if those defending
the decision is quite as sure that they are right?
> 
>It's easy to second guess the people on the ground at the time. Why should
>the US have expended one more US or US Allied life to save a Japanese life?

It comes down to whether you believe in the concept of civilians or not. If
you don't, then anything goes. If you do, the situation was a lot less
clearcut.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 08:58:58 -0500
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Two Questions...

> On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
> 2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I have
> never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have Snapshot,
> but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see

The only copy of type A free trader deckplans that I've seen are in DGPs
Starship Operators Manual, Vol 1.

>trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but
>I can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
>corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).

The problem is the DPI rating of your printer vs. the DPI rating of the
image.

For example, if the Image is at 50 DPI, but your printer can print 500
DPI...well, you can see how that might screw things up :)

Possible solutions:
  a) Tell your viewer program to "stretch to fit", if it has such an
option. Remember to tell it to keep the aspect ratio. The problem with
this is jagglies...basically it "blows up" the image, making each pixel
larger.
  b) Use an image manipulation program and "resample" the image.
Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, and others all do this. You'll want to
convert the image into 24-bit color before you do it, so the program can
anti-alias correctly. Done correctly, this will enlarge the image
without the jagglies. I've done it many times with my copies.
  c) Tell your printer to print in a lower DPI mode. If you can find out
what DPI the image is at...try to place your printer in the same mode.
Thus, you'll get more of a "true size".

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:13:53 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Defense questions

Robert Eaglestone writes:
>Battle Carriers
> 
>Why o why do battle carriers hold riders within their hull instead of
>grappling them onto the outside?

Most of the carriers I have seen detailed are fighter carriers as opposed
to rider carriders.

>Here's the point: Lurenti/Nolikian battle groups rely on
>hangars rather than exterior grapples for jump travel.  Why?

You're wrong there. The Lurenti is a dispersed structure carrying seven
Nolikian battle riders. The design calculations include the Nolikian in
the Lurenti's size, but they are actually carried outside. 

>Really Really Big Ships
> 
>What's the biggest useful ship the Imperium would want to produce... and
>why?

As to why, there are commercial adavatages to larger ships, though the
gain is minuscule above a certain size. If you are designing a fleet for
use with High Guard combat rules, you don't want any combat vessel larger
than the smallest one necessary to mount the largest meson gun available.
With meson guns a hit is very often a kill, so you want as many guns as
possible and you want your opponent to have as many targets as possible.

>Is the Tigress as big as the 3I needs?  They wouldn't care
>for a billion-ton ship, would they?

According to High Guard rules the biggest available computer does not
allow any ship bigger than 1 million tons. I can recall mention of at
least one ship class that big: the _Gorodish_ Fleet Tender (_Fighting
Ships_).
 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:24:54 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Conspiricies and Meson Weapons

>Suggestion for the IMTU Geek Code:
>This was discussed durnig yesterday #traveller chat.  A code that details
>the level of covert activity/black ops/conspiricy within the 3rd Imp.  I
>suggested FNORD++ for obvious reasons.  "BRuad" had suggested C3I++ for
>"Conspiriacy in the 3rd Imperium".  It also has a military implication ;)

Didn't I already post this?

IMTU code ii (illuminated Imperium):

	ii++	Yaskodray is the Great Old One
	ii+	The Third Imperium is run by a secret cabal
	ii	Conspiracy theories are as popular in the 3I as in present
day Earth
	i-	Conspiracies do not play an important part in my campaigns
	i--	This stuff turns the game into a joke

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:45:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Other Famous SF Warriors 

Anybody here ever read any of Timothy Zahn's works on the Blackcollars or the 
Cobras?

Cobras were guerilla fighters surgically altered during training to replace as 
much bones as possible with a ceramic composite to make them nearly impossible 
to break.  They were also wired up with some neat high-tech weapons like a 
heavy anti armor laser in their leg, a sonic weapon in their stomach, and 
smaller lasers in their fingertips.  The new bones also had built-in servos to 
increase muscle capacity.  They could jump up a couple stories no problem.  
Running all the equipment was a preprogrammed nonocomputer implanted just 
below the brain near the pineal gland.

Disadvantages were that the bone replacement caused leukemia-like symptoms due 
to the bone marrow eventually dying out, cutting the production of red cells.  
They also come down with arthritis.  Worst of all, the nanocomputer can't be 
removed, nor can the Cobra implants be removed without killing the trooper in 
the process.  The nanocoputer was designed and programmed to protect the Cobra 
without regard to bystanders and had a very loose definition of 'attacks' on 
the Cobra himself; a couple of kids screwed with a demobilised Cobra after the 
war by playing 'chicken' with him.  The nanocomputer took the groundcar's 
approach as an attack on him, jumped him out of the way, then flattened the 
car's tires with the fingertip lasers, the only weapon availiable to it.

Some candidates of the Cobra program also scrubbed their psychological exam 
after recieving the initial implants.  These Jects were fitted with a 
nanocomputer that would only control the implanted servos and allow normal 
movement.  Jects tend to be bitter as hell.

Game Effects:  Treat the implants as laser rifle-1 for the leg laser, laser 
rifle-4 for the fingertip lasers for damage.  Treat the nonocomputer as having 
Laser Rifle-2 for hit determination.  Treat the implanted ceramic bones as 
jack-1 armour.  And roll reactions for the nanocomputer as having Tactics-2 
*seperately* from the character.  The implants would give the character a UPP 
of FDFxxx as far as endurance, strength, and dexterity go, but use the 
character's *normal* UPP for wound resolution.  (Character is treated as 
wearing Battle Dress-2).  Cobras also start having aging rolls after their 
first term as a Cobra due to the arthritis and anemia.   Finally, Cobra 
implants are *ONLY* availiable to Commandos.

Blackcollars:

The ultimate low tech fighting man.  These commandos were trained to 
infiltrate high tech installations with low tech weaponry:  shiriken 
('throwing stars'), nunchucks, slingshots, and the like.  Blackcollar weapons 
are made of composite materials such as ceramic/carbon fiber, with zero metal 
content to allow them to pass through metal detectors without getting caught.  
Their uniforms are made of ballistic cloth (treat as combat environment suit) 
with a pull up hood.  Anti laser capability is built into their uniforms as 
well.  They are trained heavily in hand to hand combat as well as their 
martial arts weapons, but mostly, they are trained as 'super ninjas', tactical 
mavericks and masters of misdirection.  Finally, and most importantly, they 
were modified biologically with a drug, Whiplash, that halves their reaction 
times.

Game effects:  

Blackcollars move at Speed 2 in combat for as many rounds as their endurance.  
They must rest for their endurance in hours before they can move at Speed 2 
again, or twice their endurance if they are still in motion.  Their hand to 
hand skills are at +2 during the Speed 2 segments as well as their blackcollar 
weapons skills.  Whiplash is a TL 14+ drug availiable on TL 14+ worlds with 
law level 2- on a roll of 12, no die mods allowed.  1D-3 doses are availiable. 
 Throw Endurance or less on 3D to avoid an allergic reaction, no DMs.  
Commandos may become blackcollars if their hand to hand skills are 2 or better 
and they have at least Tactics-3.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:55:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two questions.... 

> I have two questions for the list....
> 
> 1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
> staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold the
> pages together.

Clear strapping tape.  Thing is, it tends to make the pages tear at the edge 
of the tape easier, so I take it easy with them after I fix 'em.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:12:24 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Contact! Romany [long] (was Re: Traveller and Families)

>
>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:54:02 -0800
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Traveller and Families
>
>Orina Melinte (female Merchant, age 38 ) had an 18 year old son who had
>just run off to join the Imperial Marines.  She was a bit scarred from
>past relationships & did not consider immediate family important.  As a
>Gypsy (Earth Romany are out their among the stars in that Traveller
>universe) she thought that non Rom were not really the same sort of
>people as Rom (who were family) and that taking advantage of them for
>the benefit of the people was acceptable.
>

The following is the introduction from the JTAS article on Romany that I
never got around to finishing:


Contact! Romany

Location:  Anywhere in human space, but probably the bad section of a
run-down Class C or D starport.

Situation:  You are the purser of a merchant ship down on her luck.  You
are desperately trying to find paying passengers to fill up her staterooms
before liftoff, when a shabbily but colorfully dressed man approaches you
and offers to make a deal.  His son, he says, has married a beautiful girl
and they are very happy together.  Her family, however, has moved to a
neighboring system, and the girl is almost dead from missing them.  Being
poor, he himself cannot afford two high passage tickets, or even two middle
passage tickets at standard rates.  Low passage is out of the question:  it
is against their religion.  Besides - what if only one of the young lovers
should survive?  What he proposes is to pay for one middle passage ticket,
and then you let the couple both ride on it, double occupancy.

Action:  If you agree, a dozen or so of these brightly clad individuals
appear on your gangway, out of equally bright but shabby vans.  These
people range in age from babies in arms to one great old grandmother, who
presides over the whole circus in a language you've never heard before.
You soon lose count of the number of bags, boxes, children, animals
("pets", you are told), and miscellania that are loaded into and out of the
cabin, saying goodbye, or going along as a last-minute gift.  Finally, the
hatch is closed on those tearfully remaining behind with the vans.

Conflict:  Once in jumpspace, you have a moment to check on your two odd
passengers, who have not left their cabin since the voyage began.  They do
not wish to be disturbed, says the young man.  Maybe it was the unusual
drain on the life support system, or maybe it was just a funny smell coming
from the cabin, but something leads you to get the captain and override the
lock in his presence.  Inside are not two but seven of these people,
together with a number of their livestock.  The women start a wailing that
sets your teeth on edge; the men come forward, both to offer some later
recompense (work, perhaps?) and to forestall any move on your part to
collect right now.  Any attempt at threats, physical force, or coersion
will be met with indifference, misdirection, counterthreats, or promises -
anything to keep you from acting until you reach your next port.  By then,
it will probably be quite enough to simply be rid of them.  

Such is your first encounter with Romany - the Gypsies.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:42:06 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Stop the off-topic hate

> >> Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win
&
> >> they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the
war
> >> reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US
from
> >> them...
 
[snip]
 
> No, I wasn't there ... and, I guess, you weren't either. But I know
people who,
> in 1945, were young enough to be *bloody* grateful that they wouldn't
have to
> either a) invade the Japanese Home Islands or b) continue fighting the
maniacal
> little bastards in the SW Pacific.

	This is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this
mailing list.
This list is for discussion of TRAVELLER, a science-fiction roleplaying
game. It is not a place for racism and hate couched in the guise of
"history". I don't care who was "right" or "wrong" at this point. and
before people start talking about "freedom of speech", this is a private
mailing list, and is supposed to be kept on topic. This sickening crap is
OFF TOPIC. I would like to ask Rob, or whoever administrates this list, to
put a stop to this. I would also like to suggest that perhaps moderation
might be in order if this subject is not dropped.

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:20:08 +0200
From: "Karsten Stroebaek" <Sdkkas@unx.sas.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveler-digest

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:08:08 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:59 PM
Subject: Stop the off-topic hate
> This is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this
>mailing list.
>This list is for discussion of TRAVELLER, a science-fiction roleplaying
>game. It is not a place for racism and hate couched in the guise of
>"history". I don't care who was "right" or "wrong" at this point. and
>before people start talking about "freedom of speech", this is a private
>mailing list, and is supposed to be kept on topic. This sickening crap is
>OFF TOPIC. I would like to ask Rob, or whoever administrates this list, to
>put a stop to this. I would also like to suggest that perhaps moderation
>might be in order if this subject is not dropped.
>
>Allen Shock


Seconded!!! I feel I am a patriot, maybe more than some, less than others,
but this whole discussion is slowly degenerating to the type of posts that
have driven people from this list before! I enjoy Traveller. I also enjoy
most of the exchenge of information that this list provides. Flamewars over
points in Traveller are (barely) tolerable. What has been coming through
lately is (IMNHO) NOT! Should I wish to read this type of thing I would sign
on to a list where this is appropriate (I am quite sure they are out there,
and would encourage those that wish to continue to find them!)

Please list me as one in favor of a moderated list if this is what is meeded
to put it back on track!

Flames of this message and the thread that has caused it to be written WILL
be totally ignored!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:36:00 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [ad][www][zine] Freelance Traveller has been updated (8/23/98)

Freelance Traveller has been updated! A good response to our
recent plea for pointers to Traveller-related software has made
it possible to add a few entries to the Computer Connection, and
we hope to hear more.

Freelance Traveller is hosted at
http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller and mirrored at
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.  Because of the methods used to
update both sites, the hosting site at Tightbeam often _lags_ the
mirror at ExecNet by a couple of days.  Nevertheless, all
material does appear at both sites.

Please remember that Freelance Traveller is _Fan-Supported_.
That means that new material is as much your effort as ours -
while we may occasionally explicitly solicit new information and
new materials, there is absolutely no reason that you can't
submit material for inclusion unsolicited - we promise that it
_will_ be looked at, and since our beginnings nearly two years
ago, we have rejected exactly _one_ submission.  It is fan
support that makes us successful; it is fan support that we need
to _remain_ successful.

Submissions, feedback, and questions about Traveller can be
submitted to Freelance Traveller through our Hotmail address,
mailto:freetrav@hotmail.com.  Feedback and Questions can also be
submitted from the mirror site (known bugs with the main host) by
using the Feedback and Q&A pages in the Information Center.

Thank you all once again for your continued support.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:17:35 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: RE: Two questions....

Seth wrote
>I have two questions for the list....
>
>1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that
the
>staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't
hold the
>pages together.

I use a Heavy Clear package tape. Procedure; remove staples, repair with
the tape, restaple.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:21:53 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:06:35 -0700, Legate Legion wrote:

> > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com>
> > > I would like to say in english to those who our soldiers & marines died
> to
> > > free their nations in the WWI & WWII & are not gratefull about it, &
> you
> > > know who you are... (No this does not mean England...)
> > > Shut your cakeholes & bloody well bugger off...  If it was not for us
> (The
> > > USA, the Brits, the Irish, & the Candians, celtics untied for a common
> > > cause & to be in a good fight...) fighting & dying to save your
> ungratefull
> > > asses, you would be in a camp right now...
> > Calm down, before this degenerates into another Anti-American flame war.
> 
> I think we can take it...  You know we are completly nuts here in the US?
> 
> Btw, the Canucks kicked some ass in WWII, Korea, & DS/DS...  So be pround
> of your nation, just as I am pround of mine...

WWII, yes (Juno was a bitch).

Korea, I guess.

DS/DS... I don't bloody think so.  I don't think Canadian forces fired a
single shot.

I am proud of my country, and you should be proud of yours.  What you
shouldn't be is insulting towards others... especially on *this* list.


Oh, and they prefer to be called Celts (*K*elts).  the *S*eltics play for
Boston and I can't remember any overly tall grunts appearing in the
newsreels.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:24:51 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:06:00 -0700, Legate Legion wrote:

> Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win &
> they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the war
> reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US from
> them...

This is *exactly* why I told you to drop this subject.  Do you *honestly*
expect to perpetuate worthwhile conversation on an OT topic on this list
with "hate" like this?  Stop your damn flag-waving... your government is
not going to come to your rescue and back up your views on this mailing
list.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #763
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 764



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

*Traveller* Mailing List
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
Re:  Various Stuff
Re:  Vilani Vice
Timothy Zahn
Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)
Re: Imperial legal system
Vilani Leaders IMO
Wipeout or I can land it
K'Kree - Gardeners World
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Timothy Zahn 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:28:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: *Traveller* Mailing List

Folks,

Please can you drop the current flame war? At least the pirates/near-C
rocks/virus stuff had a point on this mailing list.

I had been thinking that the TML was being more rational and interesting
than ever, but look what you've gone and done :-(

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:31:16 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:08:08 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:59 PM
> Subject: Stop the off-topic hate

[re: Legate Legion's "hate" comments]

> > This is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this
> >mailing list.
> >This list is for discussion of TRAVELLER, a science-fiction roleplaying
> >game. It is not a place for racism and hate couched in the guise of
> >"history". I don't care who was "right" or "wrong" at this point. and
> >before people start talking about "freedom of speech", this is a private
> >mailing list, and is supposed to be kept on topic. This sickening crap is
> >OFF TOPIC. I would like to ask Rob, or whoever administrates this list, to
> >put a stop to this. I would also like to suggest that perhaps moderation
> >might be in order if this subject is not dropped.
> >
> >Allen Shock
> 
> Seconded!!! I feel I am a patriot, maybe more than some, less than others,
> but this whole discussion is slowly degenerating to the type of posts that
> have driven people from this list before! I enjoy Traveller. I also enjoy
> most of the exchenge of information that this list provides. Flamewars over
> points in Traveller are (barely) tolerable. What has been coming through
> lately is (IMNHO) NOT! Should I wish to read this type of thing I would sign
> on to a list where this is appropriate (I am quite sure they are out there,
> and would encourage those that wish to continue to find them!)
> 
> Please list me as one in favor of a moderated list if this is what is meeded
> to put it back on track!
> 
> Flames of this message and the thread that has caused it to be written WILL
> be totally ignored!
> 
> Mike Peters

Agreed!  While "freedom of speech" may be a constitutional right obtainable
to some, it also possesses a certain grey area where "hate" is seriously
frowned upon.  Anyone wishing to continue their "hateful" viewpoints about
an event that took place over fifty years ago can create their own ON-topic
mailing list of their own.  Forgive and forget, or do most Americans still
hold a grudge against a few individuals that burnt down the White House a
while back?



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:31:36 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Various Stuff

Ian wrote:

[snip high-energy kink]

>amounts of radiation. Integration of meson play with imbedded metallic
objects is left 
>as an exersise for interested Sayat (have we lost our PG-13 rating yet ?).

Coincidentally, I had to take out all my metal bits for some medical imaging a
few weeks ago.  Amazing how it accumulates over the years, ain't it?

Equally coincidentally, I have FF&S right by my side.  

TL-E Barbell Ring
1.75mm diameter post, ring 20mm across, bead ring 2.5mm diameter.  Call it 180
cubic milimeters.  Mass: 2.7 g.  Cost:  er... a bag of 200 for a credit!
Pierce your entire mercenary company!  Complementary nipple piercing with each
high passage ticket purchased!  Er... 

67  Piercing Jewelry  Cr1900  I-5, R-2   I-4, R+2, NI+1  1D

But it doesn't say whether bonded superdense is hypoallergenic.  Can a techie
speak to this question?

>Secondly, Kenji asked about economics data. My preferred solution is to
provide a per 
>capita GDP figure, income distribution (1=perfect income equality, 0 =
perfect income 
>inequality) and interestellar trade as % of GWP. This will provide most of
the 
>information players need, and enough to extrapolate most of the rest.

That does sound useful... into my notes it goes.

>Now, the Imperium does not have to follow our own assumptions on what is
right action 
>and what is not. I find it almost certain that Imperial individuals will have
very 
>different ideas of right and wrong, that may seem strange to us. For example,
where a 

Ian!!!!  Do you really mean to be implying that people 3000 years from now
might not believe & behave like Americans?  That's -- that's -- that's HERESY!

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:31:30 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Vilani Vice

John wrote:

>What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?  Their cultural emphasis on food
>seems to rule out drugs and alcohol,

Huh?  Booze and (some) drugs and food go together like, why, like ice cream
and apple pie!  Like coffee and doughnuts!  Like cigarettes and crank!  

> and their preference for communal
>living makes casual sex somewhat problematical. 

I hear this a lot, but I can't find any sort of reference -- even a broad
_hint_ -- at Vilani having communal or collective residential habits.

And if they did, so what if it's a little problematical?  Eh?  That's what
makes it a challenge.

> The only thing left would
>seem to be gambling.  People usually do the opposite of what they've been
>brought up to regard as good, so taking chances would have to be the utimate
>thrill for a Vilani gone bad (A Vile-ani?).  Plus this would explain the
>prevailance of the Gambling skill in all the character generation tables.

That _is_ a point... I'd never noticed it before, but you're right.  Notice
it's not "Gaming" skill or something like that, but specifically "Gambling".
You might be on to something there...

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

"'Gakhlikaarki mekhaashnub kananipar musha ki,' suuze Eneri mukhigad."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:37:28 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Timothy Zahn

>Blackcollars:
>
>The ultimate low tech fighting man.  These commandos were trained to
>infiltrate high tech installations with low tech weaponry:  shiriken
>('throwing stars'), nunchucks, slingshots, and the like.  Blackcollar
weapons
>are made of composite materials such as ceramic/carbon fiber, with zero
metal
>content to allow them to pass through metal detectors without getting
caught.
>Their uniforms are made of ballistic cloth (treat as combat environment
suit)
>with a pull up hood.  Anti laser capability is built into their uniforms as
>well.  They are trained heavily in hand to hand combat as well as their
>martial arts weapons, but mostly, they are trained as 'super ninjas',
tactical
>mavericks and masters of misdirection.  Finally, and most importantly, they
>were modified biologically with a drug, Whiplash, that halves their
reaction
>times.
>
Actually the drug was Backlash. Whiplash was a drug developed by the
resistance on earth which broke the conditioning the aliens gave to ensure
loyalty in certain humans. As the aliens (I can't be bothered digging out my
copies of the books to get their names) and their flunkies consider all
conditioned people to be totally loyal this would give the resistance a
major benefit.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:39:09 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

I was sitting here watching a program on TLC about the Mars mission and they
began talking about solar flares and radiation. Now I never really addressed
this in any of my games, but it might be interesting to throw at the PCs.
I'm sure this has been discussed to death but I can't seem to locate
anything on it. So, here are a couple of questions, if they've been
asked/answered before and that is on the Web, please just point me in the
right direction.

1) How much radiation protection is superdense? Equal, less or greater than
the equivalent thickness of lead?

2) If the superdense isn't enough would nuclear dampers work to reduce solar
flare radiation?

3) (Probably covered some what in 1&2) What effects could be expected on
ship's electronics? Obviously communication would be affected (radio), what
about laser (my guess is not but...) and meson (really have no idea on this
one)? Computers Iand other electronics I would expect to be shielded. But
what effects would there be on ship's sensors?

Thanks in advance,
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:43:43 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

As noted by at least one other, the basic Type A Free Trader has (had)
deckplans in DGPs Starship Operators Manual. Variants of the Type A include
the one from Snapshot and the Alexandria (published by FASA in one of the
Adventure Class Ships folios).
  The Patrol "Cruiser", or Type T, only exists in FASAs above mentioned
Adventure Class Ships, Volume 2. As with much of FASAs deckplan work, it ain't
the greatest, but it will do.  The Type T is one of the ships on my list of
deckplans to correct...

 If enough people are curious/interested/willing to help I'll do a big list of
printed deckplan sources for my website.  Anyone?

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Immortality (was re: Traveller and Families)

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:

>Simon Early wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, every anagathic found so far causes sterility as a side-effect.
>But a forward-thinking Archon (or PC) will have deposited genetic 
>material in a cryo-vault so that a new heir can be found if (and I 
>stress, IF) a child by my new political-alliance spouse becomes a 
>necessity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Of course - with two reminders:
>1. You're not breeding with your political-alliance spouse if she's
>an immortal as well. Anagathics + female pregnancy hormones
>do not mix, at least not in any way that will create a survivable
>womb environment.
>
>2. Immortals don't have kids. This is a cultural view that just happens
>to match the usual state of reality. If you're the supreme leader and
>can get away with anything then fine, but it's often dangerous to go
>against your people's cultural biases.
>
>Immortals don't have children or heirs. They are the embodiment of
>whatever dynasty they wished to found, it lives and dies with them.
>Above is IMTU, of course - YTUMV.

Interesting, but I see one serious problem with this scenario.  You don't
have to start taking antiagathics until you are over 30.  Most folks who
are going to have kids do so when they are under 30. 

Some folks won't even have decided to become immortal when they have kids. 
What would prevent someone from having a child at 25 then start taking
antiagathics at 30. 

Then again, IMTU, I tend to assume (non-Vilani) human lifespan has been
raised to around 150-200 w/o antiagathics (with limits maximum terms to
prevent munchkinism) so everyone is living a *long* time, the rich just
live even longer. 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 98 14:38:20 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

On 08/22/98 at 09:58 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>I guess its another case of being divided by our common language
>>(kind of like how the US got to keep attornies while the rest of
>>us got lumped with solicitors)

>One of the girls at my secondary school (11-16) had an interest in
>following a legal career, and looked at our two week work experience
>placement at the age of fifteen as an opportunity to further this
>ambition. On her form she indicated that she was interested in
>soliciting as a career.

>In the UK soliciting has a completely different meaning, and you can
>be locked up for it ;-)

>Fortunately, the teachers decided to give her a placement in a legal
>firm instead....

Cute story.

>One country divided by a common language?

No, soliciting has the same meaning in the US.  ;-> I think the
biggest difference between the UK and US legal professions is we
don't make as big a distinction between litigators and
non-litigators as is done in the UK.  We're apt to use the terms
solicitor, lawyer, councilor, attorney...shyster and mouthpiece
(it's a joke, so don't sue me) ;->...interchangably.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:08:06 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Vilani Leaders IMO

The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on
any Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited
and will follow the chef wherever they go.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:14:14 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Wipeout or I can land it

  There appears to be a tendency in games of Traveller I have
played in for a player to express that their character should
pilot because they are the best.  Only to later find that they
have emergency crash landed the starship on some desolate world.
This happened twice in succession by the same character.

  I have heard of another character pilot their ship to land
on a comet.  The GM had asked several times "Do you really want
to do that", the other players shaking their heads in disbelief.
Well it was one way of avoiding the annual maintenance, but a 
little extreme.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:10:01 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: K'Kree - Gardeners World

Well the K'Kree probably have a number of Charismatic Dictators
who have progressed from the Media into Politics, however the
ones that do the best are the Greenhoofed Horticulturists.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:31:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

> From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com>
> > > > I would like to say in english to those who our soldiers & marines
died
> > to
> > > > free their nations in the WWI & WWII & are not gratefull about it,
&
> > you
> > > > know who you are... (No this does not mean England...)
> > > > Shut your cakeholes & bloody well bugger off...  If it was not for
us
> > (The
> > > > USA, the Brits, the Irish, & the Candians, celtics untied for a
common
> > > > cause & to be in a good fight...) fighting & dying to save your
> > ungratefull
> > > > asses, you would be in a camp right now...
> > > Calm down, before this degenerates into another Anti-American flame
war.
> > 
> > I think we can take it...  You know we are completly nuts here in the
US?
> > 
> > Btw, the Canucks kicked some ass in WWII, Korea, & DS/DS...  So be
pround
> > of your nation, just as I am pround of mine...
> WWII, yes (Juno was a bitch).

This is true..

> Korea, I guess.

You guess, you guess, the Canucks held the line for the US many times so
that we could regroup to counter attack...

> DS/DS... I don't bloody think so.  I don't think Canadian forces fired a
> single shot.

Um, you did...  Your aircraft flew with our aircraft, your armor fought
with our armor...

> I am proud of my country, and you should be proud of yours.  What you
> shouldn't be is insulting towards others... especially on *this* list.

I was not, was I?  I just spoke the plain truth, if some cannot take that,
then how am I to judge that?

> Oh, and they prefer to be called Celts (*K*elts).  the *S*eltics play for
> Boston and I can't remember any overly tall grunts appearing in the
> newsreels.

Thank you for that, I made a mistake on spelling, I am only half Celt, the
other half is jewish...

> James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:11:10 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761

> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> >> >>   I'm also pretty near a hundred percent certain that the
Vietnamese
> >are
> >> >> native to Indochina, unlike say the French, Americans, Ozzies, or
> >> >Canucks. 
> >> >> For more detailed discussion of that one please e-mail me
privately.
> >> >But, were we (the USA) not helping out our allies, the South
Vietnamese
> >&
> >> >the French?  Or should we neglect our allies in their time of need?
> >>   Wait a sec - wasn't the South abandoned to Hanoi anyway? And that's 
> >> without getting into the interesting question of who should or
shouldn't
> >> have been intervening there (hmm, Vietnamese "intervening" in Vietnam
- -
> >> now there's an interesting concept).
> >Maybe, but as an allied nation-state we (the USA) had to intervene in
> >Vietnam, that plus the fact that the North rigged the voting for the
left &
> >the people of 'Nam by & large voted not to be commie...
> Uh, wait a moment. You must be aware of some secret vote that was taken
on the
> matter that no-one else in the real world is.

Then, why did my history teacher in HS & my History Professor in College
teach this?

> The "people" of Vietnam were *supposed* to get the chance to make such a
vote
> after the Geneva Accords in 1956, supposedly by 1958 IIRC ... the US
encouraged
> a small clique of anti-communist thugs who had no popular support to
prevent
> this occurring in the south. Why? Well, as even the US acknowledged
(privately)
> at the time, Ho would have won by a landslide ... there would have been
no
> *need* to rig the votes ... he was a genuine war hero who had rid the
country of
> the French.

Yes, right..  I see...

> Phil

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:08:12 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760

> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
> >> Hear-hear, I say f*ck the Japs, they started a war they could not win
&
> >> they will not hear anything about it now...  I say we just take the
war
> >> reperations that they were ordered to pay & have not, yet to the US
from
> >> them...
> >During my life I have seen and experienced horrors which I hope that
people 
> >can't even imagine. To me this attitude (and many others expressed by
more 
> >than one person) is offensive and disgraceful, it sickens me to my
stomach.
> Fine. *You* didn't start a brutal and unprovoked war of agression, nor
did you
> support it (as far as I can tell :-).

He does support what happened, by not being agianst it...  "He who is not
for me is agianst me."- Jesus Christ

> On the other hand, I see the whining of second guessing revisionists, and
of the
> supposedly poor put upon Japanese, about how awful the A-Bombs were. To
which I
> say, garbage.

Hear, hear.  They started the war, now they have to pay...

> No, I wasn't there ... and, I guess, you weren't either. But I know
people who,
> in 1945, were young enough to be *bloody* grateful that they wouldn't
have to
> either a) invade the Japanese Home Islands or b) continue fighting the
maniacal
> little bastards in the SW Pacific.

Both my father & grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII.  And, as both are
dead now, I feel that I have to 

> They didn't care for the rights or wrongs of it ... they only wanted to
survive.

This is true...

> If *you* had been there, and if *you* had been earmarked for the first
wave onto
> the beaches for Olympic, Coronet or any other late 1945 operation against
the
> Japs, well, then I guess you might have the right to say "I'd rather have
died
> than have the A-Bombs dropped" ...

I don't think even he is that dumb, but I have been wrong before...

> Since (and I'm only guessing this, correct me if I'm wrong), *you*
weren't so
> designated, then, well, I still say tough luck to the Japs. And note that
*I*
> didn't make the reply you have quoted as mine anyway.

Well, he is wrong then...

> >Real people die in wars in ways more horrible than we care to think.
There are 
> Yes, and governments have the right - and, goddamnit, the
*responsibility* - to
> end them with as few casualties to *their own citizens* as possible. FDR
and
> Truman had no responsibilities to the Japs ... only to the US and Allied
troops
> (and civilians) who *would* have died if an invasion had gone ahead. All
other
> considerations are secondary.

Well, did you not know that everytime the Allied Leaders meet, they always
talked about how many of their own troops would die in battle so that they
could save enemy live...  NOT!

> >white hats and there are no black hats. The Japanese and Germans are no 
> >more responsible for the horrors of Nanking and Achwitz than the
Isreali's and 
> No, the individual Japanese and Germans who stood up and opposed those
things
> weren't ... the rest, well, sorry, but they should have. I know its not
fair, no
> one ever said it was. But it is ludicrous to expect the Western Allies to
pursue
> a policy or strategy that saves the lives of their enemies by killing
more of
> their own citizens.

El Righto...  Let me see, if a leader did this durring wartime, what would
happen to him...
 
> If you don't agree with this, well, might I suggest that the next war you
see
> that NZ gets involved in, or seems *about* to get involved in, that you
offer
> your services as a volunteer to die in some other poor sods place who
would die
> because of your scruples. Then and only then would you have the right to
take
> the moral high ground.

Hell. he would not go to war, he talks the talk, but cannot walk the
walk...

Btw, Phil, if we ever go to war with NZ as our ally, remind me not to share
a foxhole with this little boy...  I may frag his ass...

> Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au |
www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:30:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> 
>   There appears to be a tendency in games of Traveller I have
> played in for a player to express that their character should
> pilot because they are the best.  Only to later find that they
> have emergency crash landed the starship on some desolate world.
> This happened twice in succession by the same character.

Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about to ditch a 300 
ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...

>   I have heard of another character pilot their ship to land
> on a comet.  The GM had asked several times "Do you really want
> to do that", the other players shaking their heads in disbelief.
> Well it was one way of avoiding the annual maintenance, but a 
> little extreme.

Heheh.

Keven
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:35:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn 

> > mavericks and masters of misdirection.  Finally, and most importantly, they
> > were modified biologically with a drug, Whiplash, that halves their
> > reaction times.
> 
> Actually the drug was Backlash. Whiplash was a drug developed by the
> resistance on earth which broke the conditioning the aliens gave to ensure
> loyalty in certain humans. As the aliens (I can't be bothered digging out my
> copies of the books to get their names) and their flunkies consider all
> conditioned people to be totally loyal this would give the resistance a
> major benefit.

Yeah, you're right, it *WAS* Backlash the blackcollars took.  Temporary brain 
spasm.  The aliens were the Rylq, if I remember correctly...

The biggest help to the blackcollars in their operations was twofold.  After 
the aliens conquered the humans, they ended up in another war on the other 
side of their space, sucking materials and aliens into the fight.  The other 
thing was the blackcollars' ability to use the Rylq's thought processes 
against them, setting them up to do exactly what they wanted them to do, then 
sneaking in behind them to fulfill their mission.

Great reading.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #764
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 765



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Important NGO's in Traveller
Computers .. Was Expanding Software
Re: One small comment only...
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756
Re: Free Trader deckplans
Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military,  Service" on
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
Re:  Succession Procedures, Sylea/Capital
Re: Military Benefits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:40:04 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

>
>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:17:39 +0200 (METDST)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks
>
...
>For one thing, fuel tanks contain baffles that would prevent you from
>using them for solid cargo.
>

That depends on the configuration of the baffles.  If they are spaced
sufficiently far apart, small breakbulk cargo could be fit among them
(which would also partially serve to secure the cargo).

Or the baffles could be designed to fold flat when not required - part of
the 5-10% wastage using a tank for cargo.

For what it's worth, the deck plans for Azhanti High Lightning do not
include baffling in the fuel tanks, other than dividing the tanks
themselves by deck.  Perhaps one of the engineers on the list can tell us
how necessary baffling is for LH2, with a density of 0.7 tons per m^3.

>>Granted, fuel tanks are more expensive than cargo holds (which generally
>>cost nothing, in fact), and there is some wasted space, ranging from 5%
>>in FF&S (per collapsible tanks) to 10% in VE2 (0.15ft^3/gal).
>
>Collapsible tanks are the reverse; tanks that can be installed in cargo
>space and used for extra fuel. 

The only reason I mentioned collapsible tanks was to arrive at an estimate
of how much volume would be wasted in using a fuel tank for cargo; per
FF&S, p. 62, the volume of the tanks without fuel is 5% of their capacity.

>Hmm. Maybe you can use fuel tanks for liquid cargoes, but the switch takes
>so long (cleaning the tanks) that it would eat up the profits?
>

Possible; the answer depends on how difficult the switch would be.  For a
subsidized or large route merchant, paying a large enough gang to clean the
tanks in time to use them seems to me a small price to pay to avoid wasting
useable cargo space.  For a free trader, where the crew might just have to
do the cleaning themselves, it might well not be worth the effort.  

This has the effect of minimizing changes to the existing trade and
commerce rules as they relate to PC's, while going some ways towards making
large-scale trade more viable.

Traveller has not, to date, explored the possibility of liquid cargoes,
although I agree with you that they exist.  Also consider the possibility
of mixing dry bulk cargo (ground ores, in particular) with a working fluid
to make a slurry and handling it essentially as a liquid.  Once loaded,
most of the working fluid could be pumped off or vented to save weight.

>>The question I put to the list, particularly those who have done the
>>extensive cost analyses, is this:  how would converting the unused portion
>>of a route merchant's fuel tankage to cargo on short legs (less than
>>maximum jump rating) affect the cost of operating those high jump ships? 
>
>Operating costs would be the same, but the bank payments and return on
>investment will still be based on a more expensive ship (bigger jump
>drive, higher TL), so they would not be able to compete with ships built
>specifically for those jump lengths.
> 

All useful routes are not made of uniform legs.  High jump numbers (I
really mean Jump 3-4) are sometimes necessary, but it would be rare that
they would be required on every leg of every route.

In the here-and-now, OBO and general cargo ships trade on their flexibility
to remain competitive with single-cargo configurations.  I think it has
already been demonstrated (by you, wasn't it?) that ships with high jump
numbers are not competitive under the existing Traveller trade and commerce
rules.  I'm not suggesting that converting fuel tanks will change that
completely; I'm asking whether it is a valid technique to narrow the gap. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:55:22 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Important NGO's in Traveller

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Everyone knows about the Imperial Navy, the Nobles,and the MegaCorps,
and their importance within the Imperium.  But the Imperium is not a
fascist or socialist state, but a rather traditionalist, rationalistic =
aristocracy=20
(with strong freedom's among member worlds).  As such, important=20
non-governmental institutions - interstellar "civil society" exist's =
within=20
the Imperium.=20
=20
Pre-eminent among these institutions is the concept of the family,
personified by the noble families. Powerful, massive families of
over 100,000 nobles exist's: while few members of a given family will =
have=20
Imperial noble titles above the rank of Knight, other non-Imperial =
titles=20
can be given, effective on various worlds.  There may be million's which =

share the same family blood: in return for obedience to the Archon (head =
of the
family), they will be permitted to serve the family in some corporate =
function or=20
another (within their caste if the family is culturally Vilani) and =
enjoy family
support in times of trouble.  Family rule is often intertwined with=20
a corporation, or a group of corporations.

Several forms of racial solidarity exist within the Imperium, typified
by the Major and Minor Race categories: however, the Imperial government =

itself considers a sentient's race less important than a sentient's
loyality to the Emperor (AKA assorted non-humans in High Noble postions,
Bwap's running much of the bureaucracy.)  These racial solidarity groups
are typically peaceful, about as controversial as, say, the Daughters of =
the
American Revolution.  If said racial group feel's oppressed, however, =
political
and military groups based on race will quickly arise.

Vilani cultural cohesion is promoted by the four major Vilani =
megacoporations.
The Solomani were never really unified under one culture: multi-sector =
religious=20
institutions (various branches of the Imperial Catholic Church, the =
various Stellar=20
Caliphate's, the Astra Council of Humaniti, etc) generally act as the =
major=20
agents of a particular Solomani culture, often with the patronage of =
Solomani nobility.

Protestant churches do exist, but tend to quickly divide themselves by=20
doctrine, culture, and even obviously trivial reasons: ie. the =
Korean-Duladasa Fifth Council paraCalvinist Synod of Astra subsector

(Duladasa being a particular Vilani race, found in Deneb Sector, to =
trailing.  And no
20th century Korean would recognize a "Korean" of the 57th century, =
except in some
language and maybe religious influences, so why would some 57th century =
Solomani=20
call himself thus?

Mainly due to Vilani influence: the Vilani revere the past, and some =
Solomani,
impressed with this loyalty to tradition, will due likewise, tracing his =
lineage to=20
some specific 'Great Ancestor' and reviving some (many?) aspect(s) of =
that long-dead=20
nationality and era.=20

Of course, the land which makes up "Korea" will still exist: it will be =
interesting to see who=20
actually resides there...)

Anyway, to continue... there are organizations - some with Imperial =
backing - which
exist to promote the idea of Honour.  They try to determine what is =
honourable behaviour=20
(as opposed to what is legal behaviour), and endorse and promote those =
people
which model this behaviour pattern.

There are various interstellar charities in existance - some with =
religious backing,
some promoted by noble families, some corporate - that work's to promote =
the
general Imperial welfare.  Mainly they provide material aid, but some =
also
transfer knowledge and culture as well.  Several are misisonary =
societies of various
religions and ideologies: so long as they recognise the rule of the =
Emperor, they are
generally left alone.  Psionic societies are, of course, forbidden =
within the Imperium.

There are various mutual aid societies in existance. The Traveller =
Society is well-known,=20
but lesser Traveller organizations exist as well.  Other interstellar =
mutual aid organizations
exist that help out Imperial military personnel (active and retired), =
Scout's, nobility, corporations,=20
scientist's, media, and several other professions that often travel the =
starlanes.

Alvin Plummer



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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2110.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Everyone knows about the Imperial =
Navy, the=20
Nobles,and the MegaCorps,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>and their =
importance within=20
the Imperium.&nbsp; But the Imperium is not a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>fascist or socialist state, but a rather =
traditionalist,=20
rationalistic aristocracy</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(with strong freedom's among member worlds).&nbsp; =
As such,=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>important </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>non-governmental institutions - interstellar =
&quot;civil=20
society&quot; exist's within </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the Imperium.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pre-eminent among these institutions is the concept =
of the=20
family,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>personified by the noble families. Powerful, massive =
families=20
of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>over 100,000 nobles exist's: while few members of a =
given=20
family will have </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Imperial noble titles above the </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>rank of=20
Knight, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>other non-Imperial titles </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>can be given, effective on various worlds.&nbsp; =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>There may be million's which </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>share the same family blood: in return for obedience =
to the=20
Archon (head of the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>family), </FONT><FONT size=3D2>they will be =
permitted to serve=20
the </FONT><FONT size=3D2>family in some corporate function or =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>another </FONT><FONT size=3D2>(within their caste if =
the family=20
is culturally Vilani) and enjoy family</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>support in times of trouble.&nbsp; Family rule is =
often=20
intertwined with </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>a corporation, or a group of =
corporations.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Several forms of racial solidarity exist within the =
Imperium,=20
typified</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>by the Major and Minor Race categories: however, the =
Imperial=20
government</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>itself considers a sentient's race less important =
than a=20
sentient's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>loyality to the Emperor (AKA assorted non-humans in =
High Noble=20
postions,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bwap's running much of the bureaucracy.)&nbsp; These =
racial=20
solidarity groups</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>are typically peaceful, about as controversial as, =
say, the=20
Daughters of the</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>American Revolution.&nbsp; If said racial group =
feel's=20
oppressed, however, political</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and military groups based on race will quickly=20
arise.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Vilani cultural cohesion is promoted by the four =
major Vilani=20
megacoporations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The Solomani were never really unified under one =
culture:=20
multi-sector religious </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>institutions (various branches of the Imperial =
Catholic=20
Church, the various Stellar </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Caliphate's, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>the Astra Council =
of=20
Humaniti, etc) generally act as the major </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>agents of </FONT><FONT size=3D2>a </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>particular=20
Solomani culture, often with </FONT><FONT size=3D2>the patronage of =
Solomani=20
nobility.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Protestant churches do exist, but tend to quickly =
divide=20
themselves by </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>doctrine, culture, and even obviously trivial =
reasons: ie.=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>the Korean-Duladasa Fifth Council paraCalvinist =
Synod of=20
Astra subsector</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(Duladasa being a particular Vilani race, found in =
Deneb=20
Sector, to trailing.&nbsp; And no</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>20th century Korean would recognize a =
&quot;Korean&quot; of=20
the 57th century, except in some</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>language and maybe religious influences, so why =
would some=20
57th century Solomani </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>call himself thus?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mainly due to Vilani influence: the Vilani revere =
the past,=20
and some Solomani,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>impressed with this loyalty to =
tradition,=20
will due likewise, tracing his lineage to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>some specific 'Great Ancestor' and reviving some =
(many?)=20
aspect(s) of that long-dead </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>nationality and era.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of course, the land which makes up &quot;Korea&quot; =
will=20
still exist: it will be interesting to see who </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>actually resides there...)</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anyway, to continue... there are organizations - =
some with=20
Imperial backing - which</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>exist to promote the idea of Honour.&nbsp; They try =
to=20
determine what is honourable behaviour </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(as opposed to what is legal behaviour), and endorse =
and=20
promote those people</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>which model this behaviour pattern.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>There are various interstellar charities in =
existance - some=20
with religious backing,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>some promoted by noble families, some corporate - =
that work's=20
to promote the</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>general Imperial welfare.&nbsp; Mainly they provide =
material=20
aid, but some also</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>transfer knowledge and culture as well.&nbsp; =
Several are=20
misisonary societies of various</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>religions and ideologies: so long as they recognise =
the rule=20
of the Emperor, they are</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>generally left alone.&nbsp; Psionic societies are, =
of course,=20
forbidden within the Imperium.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>There are various mutual aid societies in existance. =
The=20
Traveller Society is well-known, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>but lesser Traveller organizations exist as =
well.&nbsp; Other=20
interstellar mutual aid organizations</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>exist that help out Imperial military personnel =
(active and=20
retired), Scout's, nobility, corporations, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>scientist's, media, and several other professions =
that often=20
travel the starlanes.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Alvin Plummer</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BDCEBF.32C09840--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:13:51 -0400
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Computers .. Was Expanding Software

Hi:

That was interesting article on computer software. There is alot more detail 
that one can include with
the discussion of computers in the game. For example, one element of combat can 
be detailed is
the action of battle programs, or programs that attack and control enemy 
computers. I can see
this being along the same lines as the hacker wars described in various 
cyberpunk games.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:34:24 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: One small comment only...

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:31:52 -0700, Legate Legion wrote:

> > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com>
> 
> > I am proud of my country, and you should be proud of yours.  What you
> > shouldn't be is insulting towards others... especially on *this* list.
> 
> I was not, was I?  I just spoke the plain truth, if some cannot take that,
> then how am I to judge that?

Truth is often a matter of opinion.

You can use your brain and maybe realize that using derogatory comments
like "damn Japs" on an *international* mailing list *might* offend some
people.  If you *honestly* did not expect some sort of reaction after
posting comments like those, you are more naive than I thought.

Oh, well.  In accordance with the rules of this list, I will refrain from
posting any more on this OT matter.





James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:35:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> > Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
> > > Date sent: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:17:39 -0500
> > > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

Thanks for the useful info [snipped].

> >From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that
> the Moot
> represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all
> theoretical. In
> practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the authority of the
> Imperial
> fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it
> gives the
> Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the
> Emperor).

I have to agree with this analysis.  Not sure I like the "right of
assassination."If that is ina  quasi-legal document, its opens the door
to constant warfare.
If thats canon, I'd prefer to handle it as an inherently understodd, yet
unwritten
rule for government.  Its dangerous because its a safeharbor for anyone
who
wants to kill the emperor.  The more I think about it, the more glaring
an error
it seems to me, at least with regard to running a government.

How does it work?
A) Assassination fails and the assassins are let go because they were
merely
attempting to exercise their right of assassination?

or

B) Assassination succeeds and the assassin is able to escape subsequent
prosecution claiming he was justified by the right of assassination?

I think the former is ridiculous (no offense to its author - I'm looking
for an
explanation).  For an emperor to watch failed assassins go free is bad
policy.
The latter seems more plausible, but IMHO, its unnecessary.  The
successful
assassin can be given amnesty, he could be a patsy, etc.

However, if the right of assassination were more along the lines of a
'legitimate'
blood fued between rival families (with the emperor and his heirs immune
from it),
then I begin to like it very much.  In fact, there is ancient legal
precedent for this.
There is an ancient Greek stone on which the crime of murder is
detailed.
Essentially, IIRC, it outlines when it is legal for someone to kill
another.  I think
the only legal way was to avenge the murder of ones own family member.
I think there are germanic/nordic/viking traditions along similar lines
with
blood-debts, etc.


> > > An appeal to a Ducal court is usually automatic, with further
> appeals
> > > being by leave only (requiring a serious point of law or fact).
>
> > I have a Subsector Court of Appeals, and then appeal by leave as you
>
> > have it.
>
> I like the more "feudal" feel of calling the courts by their noble
> titles. helps to
> remind players of the true nature of the system.

I like it.

[snip more stuff that I agree with]

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:46:18 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>    A big problem here is that the actual Warrant wasn't written till
> well
> after so much Imperial history.  Plus, assuming its canonicity, how
> many times
> has it been amended, if at all.  Any Emperor could have well written
> up his
> own.  The real "validity" of the Imperium was de facto rather than de
> jure.
> The claims of the 3I to the RoM or Ziru Sirka are pretty thin.  Since
> there's
> no mention of the Warrant in the earlier Traveller products (in real
> life
> because it hadn't been written yet), i'd say that the Warrant is
> probably a
> musty old document on Capital that noone has remembered in about a
> thousand
> years.  "Hey Eneri, look at this!"

Well, thats probably true, but I'm way back in Milieu 0, Year 0020.  And
the ink isbarely dry.

FWIW, for later years, I would only imagine the Warrant as one of the
various
legal foundations for the 3I, when its necessary to examine them (which
might
be very rarely).  IMHO, to the extent that the 3I has a constitution, or
at least
a body of fundamental laws that most citizens are aware of and rely on,
towards the goal of having a stable and predictable environment in which
to
live and do business, I assume it to be an unwritten one.  Or more
accurately,
an accretion of statements, treaties, etc., that all compile to make a
reasonably
stable whole, albeit with the understanding that it can all be changed
by a
suitably motivated noble.  In this light, the Warrant is only a starting
point.
Next comes sophont rights, in Cleon's speech in 17.  Then something to
publicly justify the pacification campaigns.  And so on, and so on.
Certainly, changes will happen along the way so that by 1116, or
whenever,
many of the principles in the warrant may be contradicted by subsequent
events.

> Pg. 49 MT IE.
>    -Assasination, Right of: The right of assassination is certainly a
> legitimate means
>    of ascending to the throne, despite the implications of the SMART
> library
> data
>    entry.

Does this mean whoever actually kills the emperor becomes the emperor?If
so, I don't want the job.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:13:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #756

I think the "million man casualties" were determined by the after action
Okinawa Campaign report. I have read several histories of that campaign, and
it's quite an eye opener. I thought Iwo was bad...

Ob Traveller> I don't know; maybe some imaginitive soul on the list writing
some 5th FW, Solomani Rim War, or Rebellion campaign narratives...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:14:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Free Trader deckplans

Thanks Gary; of course I don't think I'll ever run into a copy of that
product... :-(

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:20:13 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military,  Service" on

That would kill us as we depend on cars and trucks much more than in Europe
(they use trains...). Of course the environmentalists would love this...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:39:39 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

Well; it is annoying. I always seem to miss that one in Trivia games... :-)
(Brits burning the Whitehouse in 1814)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:42:38 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

I'm interested....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:02:52 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

At 19:39 23/08/98 EDT, you wrote:

>(Brits burning the Whitehouse in 1814)

Is that a Whitehouse worth mentioning :-)




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:45:51 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

LOL

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:22:33 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Succession Procedures, Sylea/Capital

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

"The "right of fleet control" that was asserted
by Olav is equally nonsense under the Warrant."

IMTU, Olav borrowed the idea of succession by right of fleet control from
the Rule of Man.  The right was claimed by a number of Emperors late in the
Rule of Man, when the Council of Noble Officers was so fragmented and
divided that it was unable to choose or confirm a successor.  On more than
one occasion, the Chief of Staff to the deceased Emperor took control,
using his control of (most) of the Navy to keep other claimants from
disputing his claim.

Eventually, as the ROM continued to crumble, and regional powers became
more important than the central government, no on eperson was able to
control a majority of the fleet.  Several claimants crowned themselves
emperor, no one claimant controlled more than a third of the Rule of Man.  

Olav, looking for a way to legitimise his coup, used this precedent to
claim the Iriium throne. Since the Third Imperium claimed to be the
successor of the Rule of Man, he felt some justification.  (of course,
succession by right of fleet control was never legal in the Rule of Man -
it was just used for expediency).

Later, when the Civil War had run it's course, Arbellatra assumed the role
of Regent until a proper heir to Nicholle could be found.  The 'core
worlds' surrounding and including Sylea had broken away, ruling themselves
for a time as an independant state, with Sylea as the capital.

Arbellatra, having consolidated her power and persuaded (with the threat of
force in the background) the Core Worlds League to rejoin the Imperium,
renamed Sylea to Capital.  Partly as punishment for breaking away, but
mainly to remind the people and rulers of the core worlds that their fate
was bound to that of the Imperium.

Later,



Michael Bailey

mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
mtbailey@student.cowan.edu.au
solomani@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:37:26 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:03:46 -0400, you wrote:

>>On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:50:51 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
>>>as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in
>>>the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
>>>useful here).
>>
>>There's some good stuff (even if I do say so myself) on Military Retirement
>>Benefits in Dark Star #2, available from Hyperbooks.com online bookstore
>(you'll
>>have to ask Terry specially, as he doesn't have it listed on his web page).
>>
>>Things like Medical Care, Transport rights, Legal defence rights, rights to
>>Government jobs, right to use Military/Government transit hostel facilities
>etc.
>>
>>Makes the military a sensible career choice.
>>
>>Phil
>
>
>Just so you know, they pay your way back to your "Home of Record".  The
>place you lived when you enlisted/joined the military.  Oh, and Phil there
>is another benefit that you left off....free burial with a head stone and an
>Honor Guard.  Please, lets not forget that one.  Gives my wife someplace to
>go in her old age.
>
>Thom Harris

Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will not die
(or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later.

So you can add ... Widow's Pensions, Children's educational benefits, Children's
access to OTC (doesn't West Point allow children of holders of specific medals,
like the Medal of Honour, automatic access if they meet the academic and
physical requirements rather than having to get their local Senator recommend
them?).

Not a totally awful deal.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #765
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Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 766



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computers .. Was Expanding Software
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Expanding starship software
Re: Military lovers/haters
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: *Traveller* Mailing List
Re: Stop the off-topic hate
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760
Re: Military Benefits
QSDS
AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge)
Vilani leaders
Piloting
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate
Re: Mack Reynold's "Section G"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Computers .. Was Expanding Software

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> Hi:
> 
> That was interesting article on computer software. There is alot more detail 
> that one can include with
> the discussion of computers in the game. For example, one element of combat can 
> be detailed is
> the action of battle programs, or programs that attack and control enemy 
> computers. I can see
> this being along the same lines as the hacker wars described in various 
> cyberpunk games.
> 

that does open a whole realm of software that would be available to
interface the computer with the port systems.  It does bring up and
interesting point, does the Imperium restrict advancement?  these
interfaces would have to be standardized, to permit any ship from anywhere
to be able to interface with them.  Any changes would have to be centrally
controlled, to ensure that changes made on opposite ends of the Imperium
are not mutually exclusive.  So how does the Imperium react to advances in
'hacker' technology?

douglas


 --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:42:56 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

Before someone beats me to it:

>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:40:04 -0600
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks
>
>Perhaps one of the engineers on the list can tell us
>how necessary baffling is for LH2, with a density of 0.7 tons per m^3.
                                                      ^^^
should be 0.07 tons per m^3.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:40:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Simon Early wrote:

> Excellent expansion of the old CT computer programs - I particularly 
> liked the Maneuver write-up, as this filled a nice gap in my own 
> thoughts about the capabilities of the program.

Thanks.  One of the advantages of being on the road is all the time I have
to write!

> IMTU subsidised merchants (like the one in The Traveller 
> Adventure) are not sold with a Generate program. Instead they use 
> pre-generated tapes (I vaguely recall that these are canon) that let 
> you jump for A to B.  Tapes are only valid for a relatively narrow time 
> range (two days) due to the movement of planets, but are available from 
> the local "Office of Subsidised Traders" (OST) for 100 Cr a time.  Such 
> offices exist on all worlds of a subsidised route.  Often, the OST is 
> one of the many small jobs the local portmaster has, which I usually 
> compare to the the film "Local Hero".  In that film, one man ran the 
> local post office/hotel/fishing rod hire/etc because there was too 
> little trade to justify a full-time person for each job ... my D and E 
> starports are often like that!

I'm working on a write-up of my IMTU jump system, which included the
various ways that a jump plan can be generated.  I hope to be able to post
it in the next couple of days. And, of courrse, once I finish
incorporating any suggestions I get from the list, I'll be posting them on
my web site.

> 
> Simon
> 

Thanks for the feedback!

douglas

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:57:40 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Military lovers/haters

[snip]
>For those figures check
>your own game and poll how many of your players are NON-Military or
>military affiliated (Scouts) as a beginning career.
[snip]
>would almost bet that 99.99999% (1 in a 1,000,000 haven't) of all Traveller
>players have participated in combat of some kind or other

Just for the record, my character during university, Dr. K. Iverson, was a
total pacifist and never harmed another sentient creature in his entire
life. He never even fired a gun once in the entire campaign. He was, I
admit, partially a response to what I felt was an overly militaristic
campaign, but was nevertheless an important contributor to the campaign.

I can tell you it wasn't easy. And, truthfully, he required all the
ex-marines and mercenaries to get him out of trouble more than once. But I
was able to thwart a hijacking without loss of life on either side, and
able to rid the Annic Nova of the predatory alien (what, you thought they
were all killed by some disease?) without bloodshed.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:01:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:

I probably should defer to the experts who are on the list, but what the
heck, I'll give it a go!  (please be gentle with me later, I'm a
generalist, not a physicist).

> I was sitting here watching a program on TLC about the Mars mission and they
> began talking about solar flares and radiation. Now I never really addressed
> this in any of my games, but it might be interesting to throw at the PCs.
> I'm sure this has been discussed to death but I can't seem to locate
> anything on it. So, here are a couple of questions, if they've been
> asked/answered before and that is on the Web, please just point me in the
> right direction.
> 
> 1) How much radiation protection is superdense? Equal, less or greater than
> the equivalent thickness of lead?

More.  Alpha and beta particles are, as I recall, fairly easy to stop.  It
is the Gamma which is the killer, and superdense should have a compressed
enough structure to prevent Gamma from sleeting through.  I'm not clear on
how it would be affected by the radiation, though.  I think because the
molecules are actually compressed against one another, they would not be
able to translate to different energy states.

> 2) If the superdense isn't enough would nuclear dampers work to reduce solar
> flare radiation?
 
Nuclear dampers can prevent chain reactions from starting within their
field, but do not reduce ambiant radiation.  So while they will prevent
the runaway chain reaction that culminates in a nuclear explosion,
they would not effectively reduce the radiation front from one that goes
off outside the field from affecting the area, nor reduce the effect of a
solar flare. 

> 3) (Probably covered some what in 1&2) What effects could be expected on
> ship's electronics? Obviously communication would be affected (radio), what
> about laser (my guess is not but...) and meson (really have no idea on this
> one)? Computers Iand other electronics I would expect to be shielded. But
> what effects would there be on ship's sensors?

I expect that most sensors sitting behind Superdense are probably safe.
The connections to the exterior of the hull would be designed with solare
radiation in mind.  

- ---------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:15:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: *Traveller* Mailing List

>Please can you drop the current flame war? At least the pirates/near-C
>rocks/virus stuff had a point on this mailing list.

  *Pirates*? A request for a discussion of pirates?
        <bwa-ha-ha...>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Stop the off-topic hate

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Allen Shock wrote:

> OFF TOPIC. I would like to ask Rob, or whoever administrates this list, to
> put a stop to this. I would also like to suggest that perhaps moderation
> might be in order if this subject is not dropped.

Respectfully, while I agree with the intent, I disagree with the
specifics.

The thread has degenerated to the point where many of us are calling for
it to be terminated.  And, hopefully, the contributers to the thread will
be courteous enough to yield the point and at least take up the discussion
in an alternate venue.

However, calling for the outright squashing of the thread and muzzling of
the participants (some of whom are the most prolific and creative citizens
of the TML) would be, IMO, very much against the philosophy of the list.

douglas


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:20:50 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:35:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> > From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that
> > the Moot represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all
> > theoretical. In practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the
> > authority of the Imperial fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an
> > interesting point here; it gives the Moot the right to remove an
> > Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).

> I have to agree with this analysis.  Not sure I like the "right of
> assassination."If that is ina  quasi-legal document, its opens the door
> to constant warfare.
> If thats canon, I'd prefer to handle it as an inherently understodd, yet
> unwritten rule for government.  Its dangerous because its a safeharbor for
> anyone who wants to kill the emperor.  The more I think about it, the
> more glaring an error it seems to me, at least with regard to running a
> government.

According to canon it was a legal precedent introduced specifically to deal with 
Cleon III. It was not intended for any other purpose than that. It works like this:

In 245 the surviving member of the Moot met in secret to deal with the 
"problem" of Cleon III. They decided to remove the Emperor as he was plainly 
unfit. Porifia was selected by the Moot to assassinate Cleon and in return was 
rewarded with the position of Empress.

Now I'd imagine this was strictly intended as a one off and the "right of 
Assassination" as such was never written down (not the kind of precedent you 
want to commit to paper). However in the Barracks Emperor period this peculiar 
"right" was revived. The following provisions appear to have evolved during that 
period: The assassin must be a high noble (member of the Moot); the assassin 
must personally kill the Emperor by their own hand in the presence of
witnesses; and the Moot must approve the new Emperor.

Thus an unsuccessful assassin would most likely be dealt with by the 
Emperor's bodyguard; and even a successful assassin has to be able to justify 
their actions (or frighten the Moot into acquiesce).

My take on all this is that the "Right of Assassination" is strictly an unwritten 
constitutional understanding. As such it would be open to interpretation, but I 
can see in it that the Moot may legitimately remove an unfit Emperor, thus I 
would argue that it places the Moot superior to the Emperor.

NOTE: This is all legal theory. As both the Barracks Emperors and Lucan 
clearly show, the "real" power in the Imperium is derived from the Emperor's 
control of the military. If an Emperor wishes to ignore these constitutional 
practices then there is little that can be done about it (Which is why the "Right 
of Assassination" came about in the first place :*>).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:56:34 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #760

At 01:08 PM 8/23/98 -0700, the Jewish wannabe 'terrorist' wrote:
>Btw, Phil, if we ever go to war with NZ as our ally, remind me not to share
>a foxhole with this little boy...  I may frag his ass...

Is all this chest-thumping really called for? Are you one of the
pimply-faced kids that hangs out at Waterloo's in Gilbert shooting-the-shit
for lack of a 
real life?

Ever so cordially,
Paul Sanders
Sept of Clans MacAlasdair, Comyn, and O'Delany

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:37:26 GMT
> From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
> 
> Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will
> not die (or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later. 

I can't believe it would be that soon.  Take an 18-year-old kid who joins
up in 1945.  Let him wait until he's 48 to have a child (late, but not all
that uncommon).  That puts the kid's birth in 1975.  Said kid then lives
the Biblical three score and ten (less than the projected mean lifespan,
btw), and that puts his/her death in 2045.  Even with the child born when
the veteran is only 28, the 70-year-old offspring dies in 2025.  Or look
at it this way:  A child born to a WWII vet *in 1945* will be only 65 in
2010.

In short:  Something's fishy with your statement, unless we give a very
liberal interpretation to 'or later.'

> So you can add ... Widow's Pensions, Children's educational benefits,
> Children's access to OTC (doesn't West Point allow children of holders
> of specific medals, like the Medal of Honour, automatic access if they
> meet the academic and physical requirements rather than having to get
> their local Senator recommend them?). 

With apologies to Tom Lehr, and in honor of my favorite NPC from the FFW
period:

  Some wish the Admiral had been on leave,
  But others, more practical, can see past the tactical;
  Like the widows and cripples, who firmly believe
  They owe their large pensions to Sir Santocheev.

    You too can command a warfleet,
    When you learn how to abandon your fleet
    "In Vargr or Galanglic I surrender with ease,
    And I'm learning Zhodane," says Sir Santocheev.

Or, to quote a British Army recruiting poster as designed by Eric Idle:

  "How else can a young man see so much of the world, and still
   get a decent military funeral?"

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:52:12 -0700
From: Robert Biggar Iii <rwb@tc.fluke.com>
Subject: QSDS

Hi, could anyone point me to a qsds spreadsheet that includes 
calculating the internal damage systems can take in a TNE format?
Thanks in advance, Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:27:21 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge)

AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge)

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TravDigest 20
TravDigest 21
MegaTravDigest 1
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OTHER
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- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:59:33 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Vilani leaders

>

The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on
any Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited
and will follow the chef wherever they go.

>

'Hail to the Chef' ?????

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:09:43 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Piloting

Speaking as the player of the Dex 13 Pilot-4 ex-Scout who crashed our ship
ON LANDING on an asteroid, spent a week fixing it and crashed again ON
TAKEOFF, maybe letting the best qualified, most experienced character fly
the ship is a mistake.

At least the other guy has an excuse when the dice hate him.

'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
found rolling about in the next crater?'

Five sessions, three major crashes. 
Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
near-electrocution for the comms tech. 
Shot myself in the foot, too.
Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

Hah. That's life....

In GURPS you can get JINX as a disadvantage. 
That character had a double-strength jinx just because I was playing him.
Poor bugger.

Does this happen to anyone else?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:35:50 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate

> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:19:49 GMT
> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
> Subject: [T98#758] Imperial "Constitutional" Debate and analysis of the Emperors' List

> On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:24:12 -0400, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

> >> I'll have to check the Warrant of Restoration, but I think this hair
> >> splitting isunnecessary.  IIRC, the Emperor's the law maker, Moot or no
> >> Moot. I guess the Moot is moot.   :-P

> >[WARNING: mindless constitutional debate follows]

> >It becomes important in 1116 :*> Its covered in Articles II and III. Article II 
> >states that "the powers of the Imperium shall be vested in the Emperor".
> >Article III states that the Moot "shall provide their advice and council to the 
> >Emperor prior to any legislation or action by the Emperor" and it also gives
> >the Moot two other powers: "to dissolve the Imperium" and to "disqualify an 
> >Imperial Heir"

> Note carefully that it requires the Moot to provide et cetera; it
> says nothing about whether the Emperor is required to follow that
> advice et cetera.  The entire Moot can say "This is a Bad Idea,
> Your Imperial Majesty.  We urge you not to do it." The Emperor
> can say "Get stuffed.  I want to do it, and I am the Emperor.  It
> will be done."  The Moot then has two choices:  say "As you will,
> Your Imperial Majesty.", or call for a convention of the full
> Moot, during which they may put forth for vote a proposal to
> dissolve the Imperium.  If this vote succeeds by a majority of
> the _sum_total_of_the_nobles_of_the_Imperium_, the Imperium
> ceases to exist.  Along with it goes the Imperial nobility, the
> Imperial armed services, and so on.

Yes, which is why the "Right of Assassination" came into being. I've always 
seen the constitution of the Imperium as being an unwritten one (akin to that of 
the Westminster system), which allows for it to changed in exceptional 
circumstances. So in 245 the Moot is faced with an Emperor who is plainly 
ignoring their advice and unfit to rule; what are their options. legally they can 
either do nothing or disband the Imperium; neither of which is practical. 
Therefore they act and remove the Emperor. Thereby they create a new 
constitutional precedent (that the Moot may remove an unfit Emperor).

> >>From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that the Moot
> >represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all theoretical. In
> >practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the authority of the Imperial
> >fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it gives the
> >Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).

> Actually, the power of law in the Imperium derives from the
> barely restrained megalomania of a certain Cleon Zhunastu, and
> the acceptance of his assertions in the Warrant.

De facto yes, de jure is another matter entirely. This is an important distinction. 
Most governments need a de jure legitimisation. Thus in the Imperium of 1116 
we can argue that the Moot is de jure superior to the Emperor (various 
constitutional precedents would be advanced to support this); but in the 
situation the de facto supremacy of the Emperor is quite evident.

>The right of
> assassination has no basis in the Warrant, and was basically a
> Moot running amok, unless Cleon the Mad had no qualified issue.
> Cleon's madness would not be "just and proper cause" (Article
> III) for disqualifying the heirs unless it was clearly exhibited
> in those heirs.  The "right of fleet control" that was asserted
> by Olav is equally nonsense under the Warrant.

I'd see the Right of Assassination as the Moot acting to correct an oversight in 
the Warrant (or at least that's how the Moot would argue it). Thus while the 
Warrant is the first constitutional document of the Imperium, I'd be very 
surprised if its the only one.

> Technically, the Imperium lost legitimacy when Cleon II abdicated
> and the Moot confirmed Artemsus Lentuli, unless Cleon had first
> _adopted_ Artemsus _and_ designated him Heir Apparent.  Accepting
> the Lentuli dynasty as legitimate, it _may_ have been
> delegitimized upon Artemsus's death, as the Moot did not confirm
> the eldest child, but instead confirmed Martin I (the _second_
> child.  Non-service in government is not in and of itself
> necessarily a disqualification).  The next questionable move was
> the ascension of Cleon III (the Mad); accepting the Lentulis as
> legitimate gave the best claims to the siblings of Martin II and
> their issue; if no qualified heir could be found among them, the
> siblings of Martin I and their issue are next in line, and only
> if no suitable heir can be found among them are the descendants
> of Cleon II considered.  If Porfiria was in fact the best claim
> among the Lentulis, she should have been considered _before_
> Cleon.  The rest of the Lentuli dynasty, ending with the death of
> Nicolle, was as legitimate as could reasonably be asserted, given
> the prior circumstances.

I'd expect that when Cleon II abdicated something was put in place to deal with 
the constitutional issues (perhaps Cleon did adopt Artemsus, perhaps some 
other constitutional avenue was pursued). Martin I, here I'd extend the definition 
in Article II "provided that such child shall have been publicly acknowledged as 
the rightful heir". Thus we get that the oldest is default, but that the Emperor 
can select a younger sibling (aside just what intrigue went on to keep the elder 
child out). Thus nothing here needs to negate the Warrant. Now on to Cleon III, 
Porifia is on the face of things a more legitimate candidate. However perhaps 
Martin II did not publicly acknowledge any heir and maybe the memory of the 
Julian War had tainted the Lentuli dynasty and the Moot choose to restore the 
Zhunastu dynasty. A close reading of Article III indicates that if the Emperor 
leaves no direct heir "by blood or adoption" then the Moot is _not_ forced to 
automatically chose the closest blood heir. Again nothing here has directly 
contradicted the Warrant.

> Subsequent Emperors, by assassination (Cleon IV), right of fleet
> control (Olav), and self-proclamation by any theory (Constantus,
> George) are absolutely nothing more than usurping pretenders.

Cleon IV did not claim "Right of Assassination", if he had there would be no 
doubt as to who assassinated Nicholle (Cleon IV is _believed_ to be 
responsible for her death, if he claimed RoA there would be no doubt). It 
appears that although many of the Barracks Emperors claimed the throne by 
"Right of Fleet Control" this concept was not accepted as a legitimate 
constitutional precedent as it is only mentioned in association of Olav (though it 
probably was used by Donald). Others may have used it to support their 
acceptance by the Moot, in which case it becomes a legitimate constitutional 
precedent.

> The ascension of Arbellatra was possibly the most responsible
> exercise of the Moot power to act in absence of a clear heir
> (Article III).  The subsequent Emperors of the Alkhalikoi
> dynasty, through Strephon, form a case study of the _proper_
> pattern of Imperial succession under the Warrant.

Definitely. I'll leave a constitutional analysis of the issues raised by "Strephons" 
assassination for another post.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:03:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mack Reynold's "Section G"

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>Section G is a sort of special operations unit. They
>>make use of people with "unique" talents for covert infiltration teams.
>
> Not quite. Most of the operators are straight James Bond types. The
> problem is that it takes years of observation and subtle training (just
> imagine how difficult it is to train someone to be an effective secret
> agent without him knowing that he is being trained!) before they dare
> induct a potential recruit because the secret they are guiding is so crucial
> that they can't afford even one "bad apple". They are always understaffed.
> So one of their top supervisors comes up with the idea of a "Special
> Talents" group, using computers to track down reliable people with, well,
> special talents.
>  
>>One team that I recall fondly had your typical absent-minded scientist
>>type, a little girl, an ordinary looking fellow, and some others I
>>don't recall. The trick is that they aren't what they appear to be.
>> 
>>The "scientist" type is from a 3g planet.
>
> But he is also a genuine scientist, able to wrangle invitations to planets
> that would not otherwise allow visitors.
>> 
>>The little girl is an adult from a planet where people are all
>>"midgets" (or whatever the term is for people who are very short but
>>properly proportioned) and average 3 feet tall. She has to wear a
>>breast binder, but does a great imitation of a little girl.
>
> Yeah, seeing her running around bouncing her little ball (concealing a
> hypodermic needle with memory-wipe drug) and chanting "Three little girls
> in blue, tra la la" is sooo cute...
>
>>She's great for "wandering" into secure areas, or distracting guards.
>
> More to the point, she is an olympic class gymnast and can perform
> amazing acrobatic feats. The scientist has a trick of throwing her up
> to third story windows and at guards.
>  
>>The average looking guy has a hobby. He throws things. *Anything* he
>>can pick up easily. With deadly accuracy. 
>> 
>>Another member is a woman with eidetic memory. 
>
> A married couple. He is a famous chef and can likewise wrangle invitations
> to almost any planet.
>  
>>The rest of the folks are equally abnormal.
>
> My favorite is the guy who is the luckiest man in all of human space.
>
> Lucky Guy: "Whew! That was lucky!"
> Girl: "Lucky! I noticed that you were in trouble and clobbered the
> guy who was just about to deck you!"
> Lucky Guy: "Yeah, wasn't that a piece of luck for me?"
>
> Then there is the best bull-whip artist in human space.

And there's the guy that they used *once*. He can kill anyone (possibly
any*thing* just by thinking at it). But he needs to see them. I think a
photo is enough. And, as they discovered, cosmetic surgery to give
someone else the face of the victim *doesn't* work (ie he'll *never*
kill the wrong person). And it worked at interstellar ranges.

Now *that* is a psi power!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #766
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 767



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Two Questions...
Re: Imperial legal system
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting 
The constitutional crisis of 1116
re: Immortality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:30:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Off-topic political rant, Was: Re: FW: Response to "Military ,  Service" on TML

In mail you write:

> PS A few years ago I saw some work an economic's student friend was doing
> for their disseration at the end of their degree - they looked a
> differential oil prices, and proposed the theory that if the US Government
> taxed fuel (Petrol/Diesel) to the same extent as most European countries)
> the entire national debt could be paid off in less than two months.
> Unfortunately, it would probably cripple the economy doing so... I've
> always wondered if that was still true?

I wouldn't be at all surprised. I don't drive, so I'm not up on the
price of gasoline (petrol). But I think it's a bit above $1/gallon. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:38:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

In mail you write:

> For what it's worth, the deck plans for Azhanti High Lightning do not
> include baffling in the fuel tanks, other than dividing the tanks
> themselves by deck.  Perhaps one of the engineers on the list can tell us
> how necessary baffling is for LH2, with a density of 0.7 tons per m^3.

Baflles are to stop sloshing and lower density means higher "waves". On
the other hand, artifical gravity and inertial compensators will help a
lot. 

Note that the sort of oil used by bulk cargo ships on earth as fuel is
about one step up from tar. In fact, bunker C won't flow at room temp!
I've heard of a ship that had such a failure with a full tank. The
shipyard workers had the chop the "fuel" out with pick and shovel until
they found the broken part of the system. 

So sloshing *isn't* much of a concern with seagoing ships:-)

BTW, due to the *extreme* cold of LH2, filling a tank consist of
circulating progessively colder hydrogen *gas* thru it for several
*hours* to precool the tank. If you don't the contraction of the metal
(or whatever) as it is hit by the LH2 will likely rip the tank apart.

> Possible; the answer depends on how difficult the switch would be.  For a
> subsidized or large route merchant, paying a large enough gang to clean the
> tanks in time to use them seems to me a small price to pay to avoid wasting
> useable cargo space.  For a free trader, where the crew might just have to
> do the cleaning themselves, it might well not be worth the effort.  

It *does* depend on the nature of the liquid carried. I can't see them
carrying chemically active liquids in the fuel tanks, nor things that
don't flow well. So cleanup shouldn't be *too* hard. 

BTW, another thing to consider is that since the ship has to be able to
keep LH2 cold, it's got to have decent refrigeration capacity. I
suspect that a lot of "liquids" will be carried *frozen*. For one
thing, it makes getting the "net weight" easier. :-)

> Traveller has not, to date, explored the possibility of liquid cargoes,
> although I agree with you that they exist.  Also consider the possibility
> of mixing dry bulk cargo (ground ores, in particular) with a working fluid
> to make a slurry and handling it essentially as a liquid.  Once loaded,
> most of the working fluid could be pumped off or vented to save weight.

No it can't! I've *worked* with slurries. Unless you keep circulating
them (and do so in a manner that keeps the "holding tank" *well*
stirred), they settle to the bottom of the tank as a "mud". And the mud
is *not* easily converted back to slurry!

On the other hand, powders can be easily "fluidized" by forcing gas
through them. The difference being that unlike surfaces wetted by a
liquid, the gas doesn't tend to make the particles stick together. 

You can load and unload the tank with what amounts to a overgrown
vacuum cleaner if you load it dry.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:08:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

In mail you write:

> I was sitting here watching a program on TLC about the Mars mission and they
> began talking about solar flares and radiation. Now I never really addressed
> this in any of my games, but it might be interesting to throw at the PCs.
> I'm sure this has been discussed to death but I can't seem to locate
> anything on it. So, here are a couple of questions, if they've been
> asked/answered before and that is on the Web, please just point me in the
> right direction.
>
> 1) How much radiation protection is superdense? Equal, less or greater than
> the equivalent thickness of lead?

Good question. But another thing to be aware of is that "almost enough"
shielding can be *worse* than "practically none". You see, when the
very high speed protons from the star hit your shielding, if they are
stopped, they'll knock loose a shower of what are called secondary
particles. These are moving slower and thus *more* likely to affect
people and equipment. 

So the shielding has to be able to stop not only the primary radiation,
but the secondaries as well. This is why current manned space vehicles
are essentially *unshielded*. The few high energy particles will zip
right through. If they built them more heavily, they'd *increase* the
radiation exposure by generating secondaries!

> 2) If the superdense isn't enough would nuclear dampers work to reduce solar
> flare radiation?

Nope. The "radiation" is high speed protons. Nuclear dampers affect the
rate at which certain nuclear reactions take place. But radiation isn't
reactions. Nothing to affect.

> 3) (Probably covered some what in 1&2) What effects could be expected on
> ship's electronics? Obviously communication would be affected (radio), what
> about laser (my guess is not but...) and meson (really have no idea on this
> one)? Computers Iand other electronics I would expect to be shielded. But
> what effects would there be on ship's sensors?

Actually, it won't affect the radios. The reason solar flares cause
radio problems on earth is because they affect the earth's magnetic
field and the ionosphere. And any radio that travels more than line of
sight distances does so by bouncing off the ionosphere one or more
times.

Once a flare has messed things up, short wave tends to bounce
unpredictably, or even just get absorbed.

Out in space, the only way the ionosphere will affect your
communications is if you are using wavelengths belong the microwave
band to communicate with the surface of the planet.

The big problem is that if your ship *isn't* properly shielded, the
particles going thru will screw up semiconductors at least temporarily.

And the trapped magnetic fields in the stellar wind can induce voltages
in long conductors. A sort of low grade EMP. Currents induced in the
hull aren't a problem. But things like radio antennas have to be
*insulated* from the hull. So if you've got an antenna at the bow and
one at the stern, you'd better have a something like a *big* surge
protector between them and the radios. Ditto for the J-drive and the
lathanum grid. (Hmmm could a flare prevent a jump?)

That *should* be part of the design. But if you have *really* bad luck,
you might burn out the protector. Which means that during the "flare
alert" (the radiation travels a lot slower than light, so the actual
flare may be over with be the time the effects reach you) you  might
hear a loud *bang* from inside a cabinet or junction box. And when you
open it, the failed protector will be easy to spot. It'd be the broken
hunk of charcoal. 

Don't worry, no designer will put them where anything *else* would get
damaged when they fail. This *isn't* Star Trek. But when you open that
cabinet or junction box (sort of like a fuse box :-) expect some smoke
and fumes. And you'll want to test the other protectors (*after* the
storm, stupid!) to see if they are damaged.

Until you replace the protector, the antenna, Jump grid or whatever it
was protecting is useless. You *can* short around it, but that risks
frying the expensive equipment that it was there to protect. 

Lightning strikes and *nasty* planetary ionosphere activity could also
blow a protector. But normally, they just redirect the charge to
"ground" (ie the hull). It's just that there's a limit to how much they
can redirect, and they are built to fail as an "open circuit" so the
charge can't get to the gear they are protecting.

The ship should have spares. Several even. But you can use a protector
for the radio for the jump driove and vice versa. You *might* be able
to swap one for the radio for one for the radar. You see, they are
designed to pass the *normal* radio waves, jump grid energy, whatever.
But obviously, one designed pass radio won't pass "jump field". :-)

So if the protector for a specific system gets blown several times
before you can buy more spares, you either do without the system,
improvise a protector, or short around it and *pray* that you don't get
another surge (because then you lose the system).

I wonder if thrust plates need a protector? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:17:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

In mail you write:

> I have to agree with this analysis.  Not sure I like the "right of
> assassination."If that is ina  quasi-legal document, its opens the
> door to constant warfare.  If thats canon, I'd prefer to handle it as
> an inherently understodd, yet unwritten rule for government.  Its
> dangerous because its a safeharbor for anyone who wants to kill the
> emperor.  The more I think about it, the more glaring an error it
> seems to me, at least with regard to running a government.

> How does it work?
> A) Assassination fails and the assassins are let go because they were
> merely attempting to exercise their right of assassination?

I'd say that being executed for a failed attempt is perfectly
reasonable. 

> or

> B) Assassination succeeds and the assassin is able to escape
> subsequent prosecution claiming he was justified by the right of
> assassination?

Sort of. See below.

> I think the former is ridiculous (no offense to its author - I'm
> looking for an explanation).  For an emperor to watch failed
> assassins go free is bad policy.  The latter seems more plausible,
> but IMHO, its unnecessary.  The successful assassin can be given
> amnesty, he could be a patsy, etc.

No. The way I see it, the *assassin* has to be the person who is going
to be Emperor. So you have to be qualified as a candidate for the
throne. 

This means that Joe Nobody can't claim right of assassination. But John
Noble *can*, if his family has a reasonable claim on the throne. (I bet
that there are a *lot* of "Pretenders to the throne" living in areas
outside the Imperium. The Solomani probably have a couple)

Given that the Moot supposedly has the right to approve/disapprove
heirs, I suspect that there's a *lot* of complex law dealing with who
can an can't be considered as an heir, including distant relatives of
the current line and possibly even descendants of former lines.

Of course, since as I recall, "right of assassination" was used *once*
before Dulinor, most of this is likely a bunch of theoretical papers in
the Imperial Law Journal.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:41:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two Questions...

In mail you write:

> The problem is the DPI rating of your printer vs. the DPI rating of the
> image.
>
> For example, if the Image is at 50 DPI, but your printer can print 500
> DPI...well, you can see how that might screw things up :)
>
> Possible solutions:
>   a) Tell your viewer program to "stretch to fit", if it has such an
> option. Remember to tell it to keep the aspect ratio. The problem with
> this is jagglies...basically it "blows up" the image, making each pixel
> larger.
>   b) Use an image manipulation program and "resample" the image.
> Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, and others all do this. You'll want to
> convert the image into 24-bit color before you do it, so the program can
> anti-alias correctly. Done correctly, this will enlarge the image
> without the jagglies. I've done it many times with my copies.
>   c) Tell your printer to print in a lower DPI mode. If you can find out
> what DPI the image is at...try to place your printer in the same mode.
> Thus, you'll get more of a "true size".

And all this is why I wish we had a standard *vector* format that was
easily accessible to folks with lower end equipment. Then we could just
tell the program how big a printout (or image) we wanted and it'd
convert to bitmapped for bitmapped devices or issue the proper commands
to vector devices (like my B size plotter). 

Of course, what we'd all *love is a freeware "CAD for Traveller"
with a matching CAM program for doing the designs.

For those not up on CAD vs CAM, the CAM program would be like the
various ship and equipment design spreadsheets only more so. And being
properly matched to the CAD program means that you could feed the CAM
output specs to the CAD program to produce plans. 

Now *that* would be a nice pair of programs!

(Dreaming of E sized plans of a ship stuck up on the wall...)

ps. 
	size	dimensions
	----	--------------
	A	 8.5" x 11"
	B	11"   x 17"
	C	17"   x 22"
	D	22"   x 34"
	E	34"   x 44"




- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:40:51 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <Philk@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal system

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:35:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > > Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > > > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
<snip>
> > The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it gives the
> > Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).
> 
> I have to agree with this analysis.  Not sure I like the "right of
> assassination.
<snip>
> How does it work?
> A) Assassination fails and the assassins are let go because they were
>    merely attempting to exercise their right of assassination?
> or
> B) Assassination succeeds and the assassin is able to escape subsequent
>    prosecution claiming he was justified by the right of assassination?
<snip>

All the following, "In My Understanding of Canon"
Neither, although a bit of (B)

The Emperor has the right to have assassinated his/her predesessor.

Thus there is no right to fail :-)

After killing Strephon, Dulinor should have ascended the throne and said
"I am Emperor".

Then if the guards shoot him, or some process in the Moot decides that he
is not the new emperor it can be shown that he did not have the Right
of Assassination.
If the guards and The Moot say "The Emperor is dead, Long live Emperor
Dulinor!" then he did have the Right of Assassination.

The Rebellion can be argued to have started precisely because Dulinor did
not wait to receive the verdict of The Moot.

Technically the guards don't have a role, but if the shoot the
assassin then he's not going to become Emperor and loses the
Right of Assassination :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:07:47 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

Christopher Thrash writes:

>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>>Hmm. Maybe you can use fuel tanks for liquid cargoes, but the switch takes
>>so long (cleaning the tanks) that it would eat up the profits?
>>
> 
>Possible; the answer depends on how difficult the switch would be.  For a
>subsidized or large route merchant, paying a large enough gang to clean the
>tanks in time to use them seems to me a small price to pay to avoid wasting
>useable cargo space.

It's not the labor cost that's the problem. It's the time it takes. In my
calculations I assume that regular freighters can do one jump every 10 days
on the average (this is not canonical, I know). That enables it to move a
certain amount of freight, for which it gets paid. If it takes, say, one
day extra to change over from fuel to cargo and vice versa, and you change
over 10 times per year, then you've lost the revenue for one whole trip. If
it takes longer or you change back and forth more often, the loss is greater.
If the extra revenue you get from carrying more freight is not enough to
compensate you for the loss, you won't do it. If it is, you will. So the
answer depends on your assumptions.

>This has the effect of minimizing changes to the existing trade and
>commerce rules as they relate to PC's, while going some ways towards making
>large-scale trade more viable.

Assuming that regular freighters and liners can jump every 10 days will help
much more.
 
>Traveller has not, to date, explored the possibility of liquid cargoes,
>although I agree with you that they exist.  Also consider the possibility
>of mixing dry bulk cargo (ground ores, in particular) with a working fluid
>to make a slurry and handling it essentially as a liquid.  Once loaded,
>most of the working fluid could be pumped off or vented to save weight.

I wonder how great the risk of contaminating the fuel tanks and jeopardizing
the next jump is?
 
>>>The question I put to the list, particularly those who have done the
>>>extensive cost analyses, is this:  how would converting the unused portion
>>>of a route merchant's fuel tankage to cargo on short legs (less than
>>>maximum jump rating) affect the cost of operating those high jump ships? 
>>
>>Operating costs would be the same, but the bank payments and return on
>>investment will still be based on a more expensive ship (bigger jump
>>drive, higher TL), so they would not be able to compete with ships built
>>specifically for those jump lengths.
> 
>All useful routes are not made of uniform legs.  High jump numbers (I
>really mean Jump 3-4) are sometimes necessary, but it would be rare that
>they would be required on every leg of every route.

I realize that, but I think it is much more likely that the freight will
be transferred to another ship, allowing the high-jump ship to jump back
the way it came along a route that does allow it to use its full potential.
 
>In the here-and-now, OBO and general cargo ships trade on their flexibility
>to remain competitive with single-cargo configurations.  I think it has
>already been demonstrated (by you, wasn't it?) that ships with high jump
>numbers are not competitive under the existing Traveller trade and commerce
>rules.

Yes and no, I have (IMO at least) shown that having uniform freight and
passenger rates for all jump lengths is very, very strange whatever
assumptions you make about the underlying costs. Someone else pointed out
that if freight rates are different from the true freight costs, they can
be gotten around by the ship owner "buying" the cargo, moving it to the
destination system, and "selling" it for the original price+the true costs.

>I'm not suggesting that converting fuel tanks will change that
>completely; I'm asking whether it is a valid technique to narrow the gap. 

Maybe. But it would be like putting a band-aid on a mortally wounded; it
may help a little, but it won't be enough.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:23:39 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Piloting

MJD wrote:
> Five sessions, three major crashes.
> Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire
> and near-electrocution for the comms tech.
> Shot myself in the foot, too.
> Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while
> trying to avoid collision with a little asteroid.
<snip>
> Does this happen to anyone else?

What do you mean?  What you have described is normal, isn't it?

I GM'd a group who (during the 5FW in the Spinward  Marches)  had
to sneak a weapons cache onto a neutral planet for future use  by
covert special forces.  On the way to pick up the freighter  they
would use, their beat-up old Gazelle  was  attacked  by  raiders.
The only gunner onboard kept his turret dutifully  aimed  at  the
enemy while blazing away with all  guns.  As  the  raider  passed
behind and below them the gunner inadvertantly pumped shot  after
shot into their  own  engineering  section  (nearly  killing  the
engineering crew)!  Only then did they think to  inventory  their
ship's software and found only generic gunnery programs  (ie.  no
safety features).

However, they did make it to the rendezvous ...  changed  to  the
freighter ...  and  got  it  to  the  right  destination  without
misjumping.  Once  on  the  planet  (Tarsus/District  268),  they
encountered a terrorist group.  "Ah, ha.  This must be the covert
Special Ops team." they said, and  handed  over  their  cargo  of
weapons  and  supplies!  Getting  the  weapons  back   from   the
terrorists involved a number of running gun battles  through  the
streets of the capital city, after which  they  were  'asked'  to
leave.

This is when the pilot failed his roll ...  during  take-off  ...
and he crash landed the ship through a department  store  display
window in the downtown area.  Once  they  did  make  orbit,  they
_then_ realised they hadn't refueled and sent the backup pilot in
the cutter (with fuel scoop  module)  to  the  local  gas  giant.
Oops, he didn't make it.

They were eventually bailed out by a  covert  Naval  Intelligence
operative who had been secretly on planet and needed a ride  back
to the fleet.  Of course, he was really a double agent, and  once
back with the fleet he assassinated the  Intelligence  Chief  and
tryed to frame the party.

Fortuneatly,   before   they   could   be   courtmartialled   for
incompetance, the fleet was attacked and the cruiser which served
as their HQ was blown up.  The party managed  to  make  it  to  a
lifeboat and landed on  Mithril  (Sword  Worlds).  After  treking
through snow and ice,  fending  off  wild  animals  and  strictly
rationing the alcohol, they found a  hidden  ancient  site.  That
was when their luck went bad!

I'll not say any more as this is currently ongoing.



Regards PLST
http:///www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen

"Landing thrusters ...
   landing thrusters ...
      if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
- - Londo Mollari (Babylon 5) fails his shuttle piloting roll.

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:13:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Piloting 

> Fortuneatly,   before   they   could   be   courtmartialled   for
> incompetance, the fleet was attacked and the cruiser which served
> as their HQ was blown up.  The party managed  to  make  it  to  a
> lifeboat and landed on  Mithril  (Sword  Worlds).  After  treking
> through snow and ice,  fending  off  wild  animals  and  strictly
> rationing the alcohol, they found a  hidden  ancient  site.  That
> was when their luck went bad!

If all the hassles they went through before finding the Ancient site was 
*GOOD* luck, I don't *EVEN* wanna hear the *BAD*!!!

> "Landing thrusters ...
>    landing thrusters ...
>       if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
> - Londo Mollari (Babylon 5) fails his shuttle piloting roll.

He *MADE* that roll; he got Delenn & what's his name down safely on Epsilon 3.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:34:21 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: The constitutional crisis of 1116

> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:19:49 GMT
> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
> Subject: [T98#758] Imperial "Constitutional" Debate and analysis of the Emperors' List

The issues raised by 1116 are extremely interesting. They show a very deep 
malaise within the Empire; basically by 1116 the Empire was rotten to the 
core. Without reforms (such as Dulinor wanted and Norris effected) it was only 
a matter of time before it collapsed.

> The assassination of "Strephon" (actually a clone - an act of bad
> judgement on Strephon's part, compounded by concealing his
> absence from his family and the Moot - or did he?),

It is certain that Strehon acted extremely foolishly and almost certainly 
unconstitutionally. For the Empire to be ruled effectively in crisis it requires 
certainty, with the Emperor absent there can be no certainty. By removing 
himself from the Capital without putting in place provisions for a crisis show a 
dreadful lack of judgement. The only possible "excuse" would be that he did not 
trust his subordinates (which would be in itself *very* telling).

> which set off
> the Rebellion, and indirectly the Collapse, represents a
> situation where previous poor decisions and an unwillingness to
> act decisively led to problems.  The key previous poor decision
> was the (illegitimate) creation/acceptance of the "right of
> assassination"; had this never been enshrined in any way, Dulinor
> would never have been able to make a claim to the Iridium throne.

Very very definitely. The "fault" here lies at the feet of Cleon I and the Warrant 
of Restoration which provided no means for the removal of an unfit Emperor. If 
the Moot in 245 had not been faced with the need to remove Cleon III and no 
"legal" means they would never have resorted to such a radical move. However 
this in itself would not have been so bad if it were not for the actions of the 
Moot during the Barracks Emperors period. By accepting Emperors who 
claimed RoA (of the 18 barracks Emperors, 6 claimed RoA and 3 of them had it 
accepted by the Moot) the Moot effectively legitimised a very dangerous 
constititutional precedent, one which up till that time had been of very dubious 
legality. In effect the cause of the ultimate demise of the Imperium was a part of 
its creation.

> The proper order of succession would have been to Iphegenia, then
> to Varian, then to Lucan (given that none of them had issue at
> the time of the assassination).  Iphegenia was killed with the
> clone of her father by Dulinor (Iolanthe would have had no
> legitimacy other than that of Strephon.  Upon his death,
> regardless of her survival, Iphegenia becomes the Empress, and
> Iolanthe becomes the Empress Mother), thus handing the succession
> to Varian.  Varian was murdered under mysterious circumstances,
> possibly by Lucan; nevertheless, it is clear that Lucan would
> have been the most legitimate claimant to the throne.  The Moot
> can either confirm or disqualify; there is no third route. 

More critical is the total failure to in any way prepare the 3rd in line for the 
throne. This was an unforgivable error which had predictable results, one can 
also only assume that Varian received similar training for the role of Emperor as 
Lucan. Again the only possible excuse is that the Imperial succession was so 
insecure that no potential rival claimant could be "encouraged".

> They
> chose to do neither (unwillingness to act decisively), and
> compounded that error when they accepted Lucan's (illegal)
> "dissolution" of the Moot.  The subsequent actions of the
> archdukes of Vland, Antares, Ilelish, and even Deneb, and of Duke
> Craig of Daibei were perhaps necessary, but definitely illegal
> without the Moot meeting to dissolve the Imperium. 

One can argue that their actions were in fact legitimate. When the succession 
became disputed there was effectively no Emperor and thus the powers of the 
Emperor devolved back to the Nobles on a local level (each noble was required 
to act as Imperial proxy in their area of influence). Part of this authority would 
include the right to grant portions of the Imperium dissolution from the Imperium 
(precedent in the withdrawal from Querion subsector after the 3rd Frontier War). 
Now this appears to be an example of "furious" legal thinking (it is), but this is 
exactly how new constitutional processes might evolve in the 3rd Imperium. In 
this case Norris retains the greatest legitimacy in that he did not seceed, but 
rather choose to function as Imperial proxy.

> Also
> egregious was the actions of the nobles who rallied to Margaret,
> who had no legitimate claim at the time of the assassination, and
> of Margaret herself, who accepted the de-facto declaration of
> independence without actually proclaiming it. 

Margaret has almost as much legitimacy as Norris. While her actions were a 
de-facto secession, she was de-jure merely acting as Imperial proxy.

> Complicating the
> matter was the fact of Strephon's survival; as it was a clone
> that "bought it" from Dulinor, there should have been no question
> of succession - if the Moot or the family knew, they should have
> said something right off, and perhaps headed off the whole thing.
> Lucan's failure to do so (assuming he knew) makes him a usurper,
> with absolutely nothing to figleaf him into legitimacy.

Strephons survival should have ended the matter right then and there (he was 
still the legitimate Emperor). Again Strephon's failure to make adequate 
provisions for a crisis in his absence is thrown into sharp relief.

> Strephon's subsequent de-facto abdication was moot, and
> technically deficient (as he did not _publicly_ abdicate);

Yep, his failure to make provison for crisis is further compounded by his failure 
to act quickly to end it, despite the personal cost that would have entailed 
(probably an enforced abdication al la Styryx). His failure to act quickly is still 
further compounded by his failure to act effectively when he did finally act. He 
should have been able to prove his legitimacy very simply (just transmit the 
approriate authorisation codes and its all over). Strephon failed totally but this 
does not remove his legitimacy.

> there
> was no legitimacy to his acceptance of Norris's declaration of
> independence

By this stage all bets are off. The Imperium had de-facto ceased to exist (in 
effect the Moot had voted by its members actions). Strephon as the most 
legitimate surviving Imperial candidate acted responsibly by allowing the sole 
surviving portion of the Empire to act independently.

> - although you could make a shaky case that he
> accepted Norris as Regent for Avery and withdrew Imperial
> hegemony over the rest of the Imperium.  Avery's status as heir
> is illegitimate prior to Lucan's death; questionable afterwards,

Avery's status is quite clear. As the oldest surviving issue he is the most 
legitimate successor after Strephon's death. The only possible disqualifier is 
did Strephon publically acknowledge him?

> since we don't know whether Iphegenia, Varian, or Lucan had any
> issue prior to that time - or whether Strephon had any other
> acknowledged then-living issue.

Irrelvant, without a formal abdication, as long as Strephon lives he is Emperor 
(there is no constitutional provision for removal of a reigning Emperor except for 
Assassination or forced abdication). Therefore his oldest surviving issue (Avery) 
is the most legitimate heir end of story (so long as Strephon publically 
acknowledged him at some point).

> If none of them had issue, _and_
> Strephon formally adopted Avery and named him heir, then Avery is
> the best claimant to the Iridium Throne.

> Norris's actions to democratize the Regency were arguably legal,
> as he was acting with the Emperor's sanction; however, in order
> to complete the process, the nobility _must_ meet in Moot and
> dissolve the Imperium

One can quite convincingly argue that by thier actions they (the nobles who 
made up the Moot) had effectively voted to desolve the Imperium.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:34:24 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Immortality

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can see the genetic material being stored by some of them against an
accident or eventual death. Once they die the material is used to
create an heir. 

But this wouldn't be all that common. It'd require a person with a
*much* longer term view than most folks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A longer-term view the person probably won't develop until they've been
an immortal for a while.

Has anyone worked with the idea of cloning and brain/memory transfer
as a means of immortality in their Traveller universes?
_Ophiuchi Hotline_ (author?) had some interesting ideas for a society
where this kind of immortality was standard.

Walt Smith

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #767
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Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 768



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Open Letter
Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural  Influences)
re: Stop the off-topic hate
re: Vilani Leaders
Imperial Right and Wrong
Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Piloting
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting
Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)
Re: Piloting
Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Piloting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:42:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Open Letter

Mea Culpa.

I shut up a couple days ago and will continue.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:00:58 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural  Influences)

>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:25:04 -0600
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Most of these "Travellers" don't survive long enough to breed, 
>however (show of hands:  how many of your characters, regardless of 

[Raises hand] Ooohh Me!  I have!  My character's name is Khaande, Chemze 
Khaande.  Married once, wife killed in drive-by shooting...  Now always 
armed.

>their ages, have *ever* been married or had children? PE characters 
>don't count), so in the long run they are not a problem.

Um, I have to differ though on your synopsis.  These "Travellers" may 
not settle down, marry and have kids, but they probably do frequent 
startowns, lovers in many ports...  Perhaps lots of kids that they don't 
know about...

Young Traveller:  No, I don't know my father well.  He was a Traveller 
that my mother loved and thought that she could keep him dirtside...  
She tried everything, and so, here I am!  I have a brother too...  I 
hope to meet him someday, and when I do, I'm going to ask him why he 
named me "Sue".... :-)

Better show of hands:  How many of your characters have children they 
*know* of?

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:02:57 -0600
From: chet-el@juno.com (Chester L Cox)
Subject: re: Stop the off-topic hate

Douglas suggested that "calling for the outright squashing of the thread
and muzzling of the participants (some of whom are the most prolific and
creative citizens
of the TML) would be, IMO, very much against the philosophy of the list."

However (Chet points out) assassination of the participants would be very
much in keeping with the background of Traveller itself.

"...nevertheless, Clinton must be impaled." (Vlad Drakul)
  ---Chet

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:34:41 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Vilani Leaders

Dom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on
any Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited
and will follow the chef wherever they go.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
???? - that's a problem?

Are you saying the Vilani are governed by a HomeEctocracy?  <g>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:48 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Right and Wrong

IMO, Imperial senses of "Right and Wrong" will be applications of 
human nature, which classically is seen as having these virtues (and vices):

Prudence   (Foolishness) 
Justice    (Inequity)    
Temperance (Dissipation) 
Fortitude  (Cowardice)  

Classically, these four represent living wisely.  How they are
applied to our situations can and do vary; however, classical
thought also states that they have an objective quality.

I think Imperial society resembles a feudal system, where worlds
(rather than people) are the subjects of the feudal state, and citizenry 
is limited in a way maybe similar to Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" world.
Fealty to the interstellar governors, who are their defenders and aid, is 
the right response, while the political situation on the world may be
very different, with a different system and better or worse rulers.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:38:23 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is an ancient Greek stone on which the crime of murder is detailed.
Essentially, IIRC, it outlines when it is legal for someone to kill another.  I think
the only legal way was to avenge the murder of ones own family member.
I think there are germanic/nordic/viking traditions along similar lines with
blood-debts, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe I've heard of such things. A Viking(?) tradition where you
could be found guilty of murder, but the court would not execute
you. They would simply make it legal for the family of the victim
or their designated agent to kill you. In some cases, the court would
make it legal for anyone to kill you - a form of Outlawing.

With respect to canon Right of Assasination, the limits seemed
pretty clear.

1. The assassin must be a Noble.
2. The Noble must perform the deed with his own hand.
3. The Moot must approve.

Case 1 keeps the riff-raff from lynching the Emperor and claiming they
had a right to do so. It doesn't keep them from obtaining a Noble
for a patsy. Of course, if the riff-raff are lynching the Emperor things
are so far down the tubes that it probably doesn't matter any more.

Case 2 keeps disgruntled Nobles from sending waves of lackeys
against the Emperor. If you want the Emperor dead, you have to
risk yourself to do it. If you blow it, you probably don't survive the
enthusiastic attentions of the Imperial bodyguards. Of course, for
a proper palace coup the Emperor's bodyguards should be on
your side anyway...

Case 3 should be the biggest control of the whole affair. You do this
with the support of the Moot, or you get executed for Murder and
High Treason. Just for fun, you may not get to find out just how
supportive the Moot is of you until after you've done the deed.
Maybe you'll be lucky, and the late Emperor's kid will be so happy
with you for getting him on the throne early that he'll give you a pardon.

Maybe your daring plan was orchestrated/ennabled by him from
the beginning...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:39:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

<<  << The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in 
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on any
Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited  and will
follow the chef wherever they go. >> >>

<< 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>

"Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:39:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

<<  << The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in 
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on any
Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited  and will
follow the chef wherever they go. >> >>

<< 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>

"Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:56:55 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
> > Five sessions, three major crashes.
> > Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire
> > and near-electrocution for the comms tech.
> > Shot myself in the foot, too.
> > Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while
> > trying to avoid collision with a little asteroid.
> <snip>
> > Does this happen to anyone else?
> 
> What do you mean?  What you have described is normal, isn't it?

No...

> I GM'd a group who (during the 5FW in the Spinward  Marches)  had
> to sneak a weapons cache onto a neutral planet for future use  by
> covert special forces.  On the way to pick up the freighter  they
> would use, their beat-up old Gazelle  was  attacked  by  raiders.
> The only gunner onboard kept his turret dutifully  aimed  at  the
> enemy while blazing away with all  guns.  As  the  raider  passed
> behind and below them the gunner inadvertantly pumped shot  after
> shot into their  own  engineering  section  (nearly  killing  the
> engineering crew)!  Only then did they think to  inventory  their
> ship's software and found only generic gunnery programs  (ie.  no
> safety features).

Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft, there
have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or aircraft
from its own guns...

> However, they did make it to the rendezvous ...  changed  to  the
> freighter ...  and  got  it  to  the  right  destination  without
> misjumping.  Once  on  the  planet  (Tarsus/District  268),  they
> encountered a terrorist group.  "Ah, ha.  This must be the covert
> Special Ops team." they said, and  handed  over  their  cargo  of
> weapons  and  supplies!  Getting  the  weapons  back   from   the
> terrorists involved a number of running gun battles  through  the
> streets of the capital city, after which  they  were  'asked'  to
> leave.

What no sign, counter-sign?

> This is when the pilot failed his roll ...  during  take-off  ...
> and he crash landed the ship through a department  store  display
> window in the downtown area.  Once  they  did  make  orbit,  they
> _then_ realised they hadn't refueled and sent the backup pilot in
> the cutter (with fuel scoop  module)  to  the  local  gas  giant.
> Oops, he didn't make it.

So far, not good...  I do wonder if the GM had it in for the players...

> They were eventually bailed out by a  covert  Naval  Intelligence
> operative who had been secretly on planet and needed a ride  back
> to the fleet.  Of course, he was really a double agent, and  once
> back with the fleet he assassinated the  Intelligence  Chief  and
> tryed to frame the party.

This I can see...

> Fortuneatly,   before   they   could   be   courtmartialled   for
> incompetance, the fleet was attacked and the cruiser which served
> as their HQ was blown up.  The party managed  to  make  it  to  a
> lifeboat and landed on  Mithril  (Sword  Worlds).  After  treking
> through snow and ice,  fending  off  wild  animals  and  strictly
> rationing the alcohol, they found a  hidden  ancient  site.  That
> was when their luck went bad!

After finding a hidden ancient site, I would have to say that their luck
should have turned good...

> I'll not say any more as this is currently ongoing.

Please don't

> Regards PLST
> http:///www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:39:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

<<  << The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in 
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on any
Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited  and will
follow the chef wherever they go. >> >>

<< 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>

"Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:56:55 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
> > Five sessions, three major crashes.
> > Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire
> > and near-electrocution for the comms tech.
> > Shot myself in the foot, too.
> > Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while
> > trying to avoid collision with a little asteroid.
> <snip>
> > Does this happen to anyone else?
> 
> What do you mean?  What you have described is normal, isn't it?

No...

> I GM'd a group who (during the 5FW in the Spinward  Marches)  had
> to sneak a weapons cache onto a neutral planet for future use  by
> covert special forces.  On the way to pick up the freighter  they
> would use, their beat-up old Gazelle  was  attacked  by  raiders.
> The only gunner onboard kept his turret dutifully  aimed  at  the
> enemy while blazing away with all  guns.  As  the  raider  passed
> behind and below them the gunner inadvertantly pumped shot  after
> shot into their  own  engineering  section  (nearly  killing  the
> engineering crew)!  Only then did they think to  inventory  their
> ship's software and found only generic gunnery programs  (ie.  no
> safety features).

Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft, there
have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or aircraft
from its own guns...

> However, they did make it to the rendezvous ...  changed  to  the
> freighter ...  and  got  it  to  the  right  destination  without
> misjumping.  Once  on  the  planet  (Tarsus/District  268),  they
> encountered a terrorist group.  "Ah, ha.  This must be the covert
> Special Ops team." they said, and  handed  over  their  cargo  of
> weapons  and  supplies!  Getting  the  weapons  back   from   the
> terrorists involved a number of running gun battles  through  the
> streets of the capital city, after which  they  were  'asked'  to
> leave.

What no sign, counter-sign?

> This is when the pilot failed his roll ...  during  take-off  ...
> and he crash landed the ship through a department  store  display
> window in the downtown area.  Once  they  did  make  orbit,  they
> _then_ realised they hadn't refueled and sent the backup pilot in
> the cutter (with fuel scoop  module)  to  the  local  gas  giant.
> Oops, he didn't make it.

So far, not good...  I do wonder if the GM had it in for the players...

> They were eventually bailed out by a  covert  Naval  Intelligence
> operative who had been secretly on planet and needed a ride  back
> to the fleet.  Of course, he was really a double agent, and  once
> back with the fleet he assassinated the  Intelligence  Chief  and
> tryed to frame the party.

This I can see...

> Fortuneatly,   before   they   could   be   courtmartialled   for
> incompetance, the fleet was attacked and the cruiser which served
> as their HQ was blown up.  The party managed  to  make  it  to  a
> lifeboat and landed on  Mithril  (Sword  Worlds).  After  treking
> through snow and ice,  fending  off  wild  animals  and  strictly
> rationing the alcohol, they found a  hidden  ancient  site.  That
> was when their luck went bad!

After finding a hidden ancient site, I would have to say that their luck
should have turned good...

> I'll not say any more as this is currently ongoing.

Please don't

> Regards PLST
> http:///www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:38:07 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> Speaking as the player of the Dex 13 Pilot-4 ex-Scout who crashed our
ship
> ON LANDING on an asteroid, spent a week fixing it and crashed again ON
> TAKEOFF, maybe letting the best qualified, most experienced character fly
> the ship is a mistake.

No hold on, how could that character crash a ship?  I mean for him landing
& taking off from an asteroid should be second nature...  I can see if you
had a Dex 7 & Pilot-1 ot Pilot-2, but by Pilot-4 you are inserting SF teams
into & out of danger...

> At least the other guy has an excuse when the dice hate him.
> 
> 'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
> found rolling about in the next crater?'
> 
> Five sessions, three major crashes. 

To damn many, the GM must like crashes...

> Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
> near-electrocution for the comms tech. 

Was he a good comm tech?

> Shot myself in the foot, too.

What was your Gun Cbt skill?

> Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
> avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

Why were you in an Asteroid Belt?  That plus the fact that I do not think
that asteroids are that close together...

> Hah. That's life....
> 
> In GURPS you can get JINX as a disadvantage. 
> That character had a double-strength jinx just because I was playing him.
> Poor bugger.

Not really, I would blame the GM, not the player...

> Does this happen to anyone else?

Never to my groups...  But, then I let common sense control what I do...

> MJD

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:38:07 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> Speaking as the player of the Dex 13 Pilot-4 ex-Scout who crashed our ship
> ON LANDING on an asteroid, spent a week fixing it and crashed again ON
> TAKEOFF, maybe letting the best qualified, most experienced character fly
> the ship is a mistake.

No hold on, how could that character crash a ship?  I mean for him landing
& taking off from an asteroid should be second nature...  I can see if you
had a Dex 7 & Pilot-1 ot Pilot-2, but by Pilot-4 you are inserting SF teams
into & out of danger...

> At least the other guy has an excuse when the dice hate him.
> 
> 'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
> found rolling about in the next crater?'
> 
> Five sessions, three major crashes. 

To damn many, the GM must like crashes...

> Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
> near-electrocution for the comms tech. 

Was he a good comm tech?

> Shot myself in the foot, too.

What was your Gun Cbt skill?

> Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
> avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

Why were you in an Asteroid Belt?  That plus the fact that I do not think
that asteroids are that close together...

> Hah. That's life....
> 
> In GURPS you can get JINX as a disadvantage. 
> That character had a double-strength jinx just because I was playing him.
> Poor bugger.

Not really, I would blame the GM, not the player...

> Does this happen to anyone else?

Never to my groups...  But, then I let common sense control what I do...

> MJD

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:01:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)

> From: Greg Smith <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> >Most of these "Travellers" don't survive long enough to breed, 
> >however (show of hands:  how many of your characters, regardless of 
> [Raises hand] Ooohh Me!  I have!  My character's name is Khaande, Chemze 
> Khaande.  Married once, wife killed in drive-by shooting...  Now always 
> armed.

Oh, me as well, my Character Dirk Bogard, was in the Imperial Navy &
commanded an Armored Cruiser & was married to his Gunnery Officer...  So it
is possible to have a wife & a family as a character, you just have to know
how to do it...

> Better show of hands:  How many of your characters have children they 
> *know* of?

<Raises hand> Jaime Wolfe & his Ex-Wife have 5 children, all of which are
Characters of mine...

> The Count,
> MonteCristo@hotmail.com

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:38:07 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> Speaking as the player of the Dex 13 Pilot-4 ex-Scout who crashed our
ship
> ON LANDING on an asteroid, spent a week fixing it and crashed again ON
> TAKEOFF, maybe letting the best qualified, most experienced character fly
> the ship is a mistake.

No hold on, how could that character crash a ship?  I mean for him landing
& taking off from an asteroid should be second nature...  I can see if you
had a Dex 7 & Pilot-1 ot Pilot-2, but by Pilot-4 you are inserting SF teams
into & out of danger...

> At least the other guy has an excuse when the dice hate him.
> 
> 'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
> found rolling about in the next crater?'
> 
> Five sessions, three major crashes. 

To damn many, the GM must like crashes...

> Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
> near-electrocution for the comms tech. 

Was he a good comm tech?

> Shot myself in the foot, too.

What was your Gun Cbt skill?

> Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
> avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

Why were you in an Asteroid Belt?  That plus the fact that I do not think
that asteroids are that close together...

> Hah. That's life....
> 
> In GURPS you can get JINX as a disadvantage. 
> That character had a double-strength jinx just because I was playing him.
> Poor bugger.

Not really, I would blame the GM, not the player...

> Does this happen to anyone else?

Never to my groups...  But, then I let common sense control what I do...

> MJD

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:01:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Married, with Children (was: Conformity and Vilani Cultural Influences)

> From: Greg Smith <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> >Most of these "Travellers" don't survive long enough to breed, 
> >however (show of hands:  how many of your characters, regardless of 
> [Raises hand] Ooohh Me!  I have!  My character's name is Khaande, Chemze 
> Khaande.  Married once, wife killed in drive-by shooting...  Now always 
> armed.

Oh, me as well, my Character Dirk Bogard, was in the Imperial Navy &
commanded an Armored Cruiser & was married to his Gunnery Officer...  So it
is possible to have a wife & a family as a character, you just have to know
how to do it...

> Better show of hands:  How many of your characters have children they 
> *know* of?

<Raises hand> Jaime Wolfe & his Ex-Wife have 5 children, all of which are
Characters of mine...

> The Count,
> MonteCristo@hotmail.com

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:39:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

<<  << The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in 
command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on any
Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited  and will
follow the chef wherever they go. >> >>

<< 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>

"Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:38:07 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> Speaking as the player of the Dex 13 Pilot-4 ex-Scout who crashed our
ship
> ON LANDING on an asteroid, spent a week fixing it and crashed again ON
> TAKEOFF, maybe letting the best qualified, most experienced character fly
> the ship is a mistake.

No hold on, how could that character crash a ship?  I mean for him landing
& taking off from an asteroid should be second nature...  I can see if you
had a Dex 7 & Pilot-1 ot Pilot-2, but by Pilot-4 you are inserting SF teams
into & out of danger...

> At least the other guy has an excuse when the dice hate him.
> 
> 'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
> found rolling about in the next crater?'
> 
> Five sessions, three major crashes. 

To damn many, the GM must like crashes...

> Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
> near-electrocution for the comms tech. 

Was he a good comm tech?

> Shot myself in the foot, too.

What was your Gun Cbt skill?

> Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
> avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

Why were you in an Asteroid Belt?  That plus the fact that I do not think
that asteroids are that close together...

> Hah. That's life....
> 
> In GURPS you can get JINX as a disadvantage. 
> That character had a double-strength jinx just because I was playing him.
> Poor bugger.

Not really, I would blame the GM, not the player...

> Does this happen to anyone else?

Never to my groups...  But, then I let common sense control what I do...

> MJD

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #768
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 769



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Two questions....
Re: Piloting 
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Various Stuff
Cracking fuel for Hydrogen
Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)
Off Topic Posts  ** ADMIN BE-NICE REQUEST **
re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Off Topic Posts ** ADMIN BE-NICE REQUEST **
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Vilani Vice 
re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding
first post/culture question
Re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding
supernovae
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Piloting
Re: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:30:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Two questions....

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have two questions for the list....
> 
> 1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
> staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold the
> pages together.

A somewhat expensive solution is to buy page protectors, and dissasemble
the entire book, put them in the protectors and then into a three ring
binder. I believe you can even get the 5x8 size that the LLB's are. 

 
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:43:51 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Piloting 

Kevin wrote:
> If all the hassles they went through before finding the Ancient
> site was *GOOD* luck, I don't *EVEN* wanna hear the *BAD*!!!

And that was  the  abridged  version!  They  did  have  a  second
gunner, a  female  character,  who  was  in  a  turret  that  was
destroyed.  She survived but lost most of  her  internal  organs.
After she got out of Intensive Care she  had  a  visit  from  her
psychologically-fragile mother and had to explain to her why  she
(the mother) would now never be a grandmother.

Both the engineering NPCs got the hots for the Sensor Officer and
were always harassing him.   One NPC was female, one was male.

One PC is a robot ... and thus has no civil rights.  Some  senior
officers (and some not-so-senior crew) view him/it as equipment.

One PC has a drug addiction problem.

And once the party went to a briefing meeting and, while  waiting
for the Commodore to arrive, had a food  fight  with  the  donuts
supplied (there's always fresh coffee and donuts in  IN  briefing
rooms).  Unfortuneatly when the Commodore  entered  the  room  he
caught a cream donut across the face.  That's why they always get
the worst equipment!

I'm going to write this up properly when I get back from Gencon UK.



> He *MADE* that roll; he got Delenn & what's his name down safely
> on Epsilon 3.

I would interpret that situation as an initial failure, but saved
by a luck roll or whatever house rules you use.  (Even with  luck
rolls only 2 out of  my  6  players  still  have  their  original
characters!  ... but they seem to enjoy  themselves.)  And  "his"
name was Draal.



Regards PLST

Homepage  = http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
Trav page = http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/personal/traveller

"Landing thrusters ...
landing thrusters ...
if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
- - Londo Mollari (Babylon 5) fails his shuttle piloting roll.
... or at least causes his passengers excessive stress.

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:16:37 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:43:43 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

>  The Patrol "Cruiser", or Type T, only exists in FASAs above mentioned
>Adventure Class Ships, Volume 2. As with much of FASAs deckplan work, it ain't
>the greatest, but it will do.  The Type T is one of the ships on my list of
>deckplans to correct...


Actually, I once drew the deckplans for the type T patrol cruiser. I don't have
the FASA product though, so it was completely from scratch.

I have it, though, and it's in the same general quality as my 'unofficial'
Nishemani Corsair deckplans
(available on http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/traveller.htm ).

Would people be interested if I put it on my traveller pages?


Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:56:33 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Piloting

Legate Legion wrote:
> Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft,
> there have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or
> aircraft from its own guns...

Okay, that _was_ a mistake on my part.  But the players went along with
it.



> > However, they did make it to the rendezvous ... changed to the
> > freighter ... and got it to the right destination without
> > misjumping. Once on the planet (Tarsus/District 268), they
> > encountered a terrorist group. "Ah, ha. This must be the covert
> > Special Ops team." they said, and handed over their cargo of
> > weapons and supplies! Getting the weapons back from the
> > terrorists involved a number of running gun battles through the
> > streets of the capital city, after which they were 'asked' to
> > leave.
>
> What no sign, counter-sign?

The terrorists never intended such a disception.  I  was  stunned
when the party came up with this all by themselves.



> > This is when the pilot failed his roll ... during take-off ...
<snip>
> So far, not good... I do wonder if the GM had it in for the players...

No, that was just bad dice rolls.



> > I'll not say any more as this is currently ongoing.
> Please don't

Oh, okay.



Regards PLST
http:///www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
"Its like deja vu, all over again."

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:42:58 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Piloting

  Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:09:43 +0100
  From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
  Subject: Piloting

  'Excuse me, sir. Is this YOUR passive sensor array main collector dish we
  found rolling about in the next crater?'

  Five sessions, three major crashes. 
  Also a fumbled electronics roll that resulted in a major fire and
  near-electrocution for the comms tech. 
  Shot myself in the foot, too.
  Flew the ship right into an asteroid (a different one) while trying to
  avoid collision with a little asteroid. 

  Does this happen to anyone else?

Yup.  Current non-traveller fantasy game I run, one of the players is
so effectively cursed this way that I gave her PC a curse.  No
mechanic necessary, until they finally found about and removed the
curse (at which point I just turned critical fumbles into successes,
with some unlikely and humorous coincidence behind it).  The players
got a good laugh when they discovered the so-called mechanic for the
curse.

Or the time I played a AD&D game with the fumble rule being "if you
roll a 1, reroll the d20, and if you roll 1-5 something bad happens; 1
on that second roll is of the order break/lose weapon."  I managed to
break a sword and two bowstrings, in a row.

You mention a jinx disad in gurps.  What's the mechanic behind it?

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:02:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

Yeah; I think that's how they load/unload plastic pellets from railroad
covered hopper cars....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

Michael D. Peters writes:
> 1) How much radiation protection is superdense? Equal, less or greater than
> the equivalent thickness of lead?
I don't believe it was ever specified, but as a rule, protection from ionizing
radiation is almost linear in weight, increasing slightly for heavier elements,
which means SD should probably be 40-100% better than lead per unit thickness. 
Most solar radiation is actually relatively low penetration, but high enough
energy to induce high energy secondary radiation -- which is more dangerous for
metals and heavy elements, with comparable penetration to gamma radiation.  A
couple centimeters of SD should be plenty.
The other problem is cosmic rays...which will tend to go right through an
unshielded vehicle (or person) but if they were to hit heavy radiation
shielding will cause a spray of secondary radiation, which is likely to have
immense penetration, and will be dangerous without shielding amounting to a
couple _tons_ per square meter -- high-altitude aircraft still have the
equivalent of a few tons per square meter of shielding, and collect noticeable
radiation doses (which might well be hazardous over the long term).  Providing
the equivalent of earth's atmosphere as shielding is probably at least 50
centimeters of superdense....
> 
> 2) If the superdense isn't enough would nuclear dampers work to reduce
> solar flare radiation?
No.
> 
> 3) (Probably covered some what in 1&2) What effects could be expected on
> ship's electronics? Obviously communication would be affected (radio), what
> about laser (my guess is not but...) and meson (really have no idea on this
> one)? Computers Iand other electronics I would expect to be shielded. But
> what effects would there be on ship's sensors?

Well, ionizing radiation tends to fog optical fibers and cause shorts in
semiconductors, so it isn't all that great for electronics -- but most likely
anything capable of killing off a large portion of your electronics will kill
the crew as well (minor electronic faults might occur, which is redundant
computers are for).  Energy weapons would be unaffected, laser and meson
communication would be unaffected.  Radar wouldn't be terribly happy, IR and
visible light sensors (and lidar) wouldn't be much bothered, though again minor
electronic damage might occur, and possible occasional ghost signals caused by
radiation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:10:19 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

YES!...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:17:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Various Stuff

Kenjomatic@aol.com wrote:

> Coincidentally, I had to take out all my metal bits for some medical imaging a
> few weeks ago.  Amazing how it accumulates over the years, ain't it?
>

Count yourself lucky yours is removable...I've got a couple friends with
lots of NON-removable bits...various motorcycle, skiing and other
misadventures have left them with lots of threaded souveneirs

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:20:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Cracking fuel for Hydrogen

I was flipping through my chemistry book the other day when I puzzled about
cracking open H2O for hydrogen.  I'm pretty sure somebody has already
mentioned that there's more hydrogen per kL of water than in liquid
hydrogen.  So, I got to thinking, maybe there's a more hydrogen dense
compound that could be used, thus increasing range.  Water is 1/8th
hydrogen by mass but water is 14 times more dense than LH.  Thus, you get
nearly twice as much hydrogen in your tanks.  However, Methane (CH4) is
1/4th hydrogen by mass.  It liquifies down below -150C (I think), but I
don't know its density in liquid form.  As I figure it, you could crack out
the hydrogen and use the remaining carbon as reaction mass, which
theoretically would be more efficient than using hydrogen. So, does anybody
out there have a better chemistry book that tells the density of liquid
Methane?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:29:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)

Legate Legion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft, there
have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or aircraft
from its own guns...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, no. Interruptor gears (to allow machine guns to fire between their
own spinning propellor blades) were a couple of years behind
machine guns on aircraft. Mounting machine guns on the upper
wing of the biplane (so they fired outside the propellor arc) was a 
common workaround, as were metal deflectors on the propellor blades
to knock aside bullets fired between the blades. Even after interruptor
gear was in place, it was not uncommon for it to become misaligned
and give you the joy of shooting yourself down.

Many craft (especially those built in the 20's-30's) had unpowered turrets
that were effectively ring or pintle mounts. Most of these had no
gearing at all, were just standard machine guns. The bit where
Dr. Jones (Senior) shoots the outmoded observation plane he
and his son are riding in (carving up the tail nicely) in _Last Crusade_
is very accurate. Even the the mid-1940's there were three guns
on a B-17 that could shoot the plane down - Radio gunner and both
waist positions. This doesn't include all the mounts that were faulty,
poorly maintained, or had the blocks removed (perhaps as part of a
jury-rigged field repair).

The example in question - an outdated Gazelle shooting itself - is
unusual, but not impossible. That production run of Gazelle's gun 
turrets probably depended on computer-based safeties instead of
mechanical ones, and there was a glitch or
incompatibility with the program - perhaps the intended "Gazelle
Upper Turret Gunnery Program" had been lost and replaced with an
older, generic gunnery program intended for turrets that _did_ have
mechanical safeguards.

Most military hardware (and probably software) expects you to know
what you are doing, after all.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:37:25 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Off Topic Posts  ** ADMIN BE-NICE REQUEST **

Folk, lets get on topic.  For those who seem to have forgotten this, let me
actually step this up a bit.

#1.  This list is about Traveller and related topics.  It is not about REAL
LIFE Earth History.  Please focus your discussions 5000 years in the future
to the time of the Traveller Setting.  If a message does not discuss
Traveller it should be taken off list or to a more appropriate list, or to
the news groups.

#2.  Censorship, Freedom of Speech.  The folks on the list within the
bounds of the United States are protected from the Government making rules
limiting the Freedom of Speech and the Freedom of the Press.  We are not a
government, but a private company offering a free service.  That makes the
Traveller Mailing List a privilege and not a right.  Those who abuse the
privilege, either by language, hate mail, or other abuses, which includes
posting "Off Topic" posts are subject to being banned from posting or
kicked off the list entirely.  I recently had to do this on another list.
I gave the person a 30 day suspension of posting privs.  The next violation
is termination of access to the list.

#3.  The Traveller Mailing List is generally a self-policing group of
people.  I'm happy I don't have to make this post very often.  Some lists
that I subscribe to are much stricter on content.  Please be civil and if
someone suggests that a topic is in-appropriate, then it probably is and
all consideration should be given to getting back on topic or correcting
the behavior before I have to get involved.

So, before I have to get to warnings and forceful action, I'm going to
start with a nice, friendly request:  Please, lets focus on Traveller and
take non-Traveller discussions elsewhere.  Thank you.

While, I'm at it, I haven't done this in a while so its time:

** A message from our Sponsor **
Please visit http://www.mpgn.com and see how to play MPG-Net games for
free!!!!

Yur Admin,
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:39:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Question about radiation shielding

Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nuclear dampers can prevent chain reactions from starting within their
field, but do not reduce ambiant radiation.  So while they will prevent
the runaway chain reaction that culminates in a nuclear explosion,
they would not effectively reduce the radiation front from one that goes
off outside the field from affecting the area, nor reduce the effect of a
solar flare. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
theory changed since then?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:22:35 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  If enough people are curious/interested/willing to help I'll do a big list of
> printed deckplan sources for my website.  Anyone?
> 
> GypsyComet

That would be very much appreiated by me.

Jim C

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:48:34 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic Posts ** ADMIN BE-NICE REQUEST **

>Please focus your discussions 5000 years in the future
>to the time of the Traveller Setting.  If a message does not discuss
>Traveller it should be taken off list or to a more appropriate list, 
>
>Yur Admin,
>Rob
>

Rob, I agree!

OvTrav:  Did you here about the barfight in the SilverStar in Startown 
last night?  Seems to Solomani got into a fight over some ancient war...

You shoulda seen it!  It was brutal...  They were kickin and gougin, 
callin each other names.  And the war was fought in the Terran 20th 
century!  Geeez.  Can you believe it?

I got outa there when one pulled out his PMPGMP and began takin shots!

;->

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:57:33 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

>What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and talk
with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.

>Vilani Vice
Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
just too scary...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

Walter Smith writes:

> I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
> Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
> permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
> Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
> theory changed since then?

No.  The effect of a nuclear damper on a blast crater is to 'cook off'
radioisotopes which are remaining in the crater.  This isn't eliminating
_radiation_, it's eliminating a _source_ for radiation.

Incidentally, a sufficiently large nuclear damper would turn off a star, which
would (eventually) eliminate it as a radiation source, thus dealing with solar
radiation....I don't think that's quite what you want, though. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:24:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice 

> >What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
>
> Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and talk
> with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.

You're forgetting the illegal pirate BBSes where people swap recipes.
 
> >Vilani Vice
>
> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?

Suns, sand, fast gravcars, and *interesting* clothes.

> Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> just too scary...

Too scary for me...

Keven
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:29:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
> Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
> permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
> Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
> theory changed since then?

No.  The effect of a nuclear damper on a blast crater is to 'cook off'
radioisotopes which are remaining in the crater.  This isn't eliminating
_radiation_, it's eliminating a _source_ for radiation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It seems to me that one of the problems isn't the solar radiation per se,
but the secondary radiation caused when cosmic rays whack into
thick metal hulls - someone even mentioned high-altitude aircraft
showing noticeable residual radiation.

Couldn't you use nuclear dampener technology to nullify or reduce this
effect? Focus the dampener within the hull plates, cutting out the
radiation source of cosmic rays kicking particles off your hull and
through the interior of your ship.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:44:16 EDT
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: first post/culture question

This is my first communication with the TML.

Hello.

Some posts on the weekend regarding Solomani/Vilani cultures touched on 
something I've been wondering about.  Namely how do we explain so many 
Solomani sounding names for systems so far from Terra?

I suppose Regina could have been called something else in the First 
Imperium (I don't think Regina is a Vilani word).  Perhaps its name was 
changed during Rule of Man or the foundation of the 3I?

If a lot of system names are relatively new (ie last 1100 years), would 
they only be used by the "Imperial class."

A Traveller and Imperial Nobleman may call a planet X, but if a minor 
race has been there for 5,000 years I can't see them referring to their 
home by another name (assuming you view planet's inhabitants keeping 
their cultures and not assimilating into a 3I melting pot).

This may suggest that most planets (at least ones with native 
inhabitants dating back to pre-3I) may have two names, a native one and 
an Imperial one.

Of course I realize that twenty years or so ago when  Mr. Miller et al 
created the Regina subsector they did not imagine having to defend 
system names to an international cyber-community two decades later.  
Nevertheless I suppose that's the fun of this list.

Looking forward to some opinions,

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding

Walter Smith writes:
> It seems to me that one of the problems isn't the solar radiation per se,
> but the secondary radiation caused when cosmic rays whack into
> thick metal hulls - someone even mentioned high-altitude aircraft
> showing noticeable residual radiation.
> 
> Couldn't you use nuclear dampener technology to nullify or reduce this
> effect? Focus the dampener within the hull plates, cutting out the
> radiation source of cosmic rays kicking particles off your hull and
> through the interior of your ship.

Induced secondary radiation from solar particles is caused by an interaction
with the electron shells of heavy elements or metals, not a nuclear reaction,
so a nuclear damper won't have any detectable effect on this.  Induced
secondary radiation from cosmic rays is either created as above, or by
particles whacking nuclei and causing a large spray of nuclear fragments and
incidental particles -- the energy of this reaction does not come from the
strong nuclear force, it comes from the kinetic energy of the particles, and as
such a nuclear damper won't affect it much.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:56:56 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: supernovae

I finally re-found a promising site on supernovae effects;

http://a188-L009.rit.edu/richmond/answers/snrisks.txt

The summary is that the "kill radius" is probably a a
few parsecs to maybe ten at most.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:25:13 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

> If enough people are curious/interested/willing to help I'll do a big list
of
>printed deckplan sources for my website.  Anyone?
>
>GypsyComet

I would love to have to have the list but have nothing to help with (house
fire, lost all CT/MT/TNE books I owned)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:31:22 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Piloting

>
>> Does this happen to anyone else?
>
Only if as GM I feel like dumping on the pcs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:47:56 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: August 24, 1998 10:33 AM
Subject: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)


>Legate Legion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft, there
>have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or aircraft
>from its own guns...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Well, no. Interruptor gears (to allow machine guns to fire between their
>own spinning propellor blades) were a couple of years behind
>machine guns on aircraft. Mounting machine guns on the upper
>wing of the biplane (so they fired outside the propellor arc) was a
>common workaround, as were metal deflectors on the propellor blades
>to knock aside bullets fired between the blades. Even after interruptor
>gear was in place, it was not uncommon for it to become misaligned
>and give you the joy of shooting yourself down.
>
>Many craft (especially those built in the 20's-30's) had unpowered turrets
>that were effectively ring or pintle mounts. Most of these had no
>gearing at all, were just standard machine guns. The bit where
>Dr. Jones (Senior) shoots the outmoded observation plane he
>and his son are riding in (carving up the tail nicely) in _Last Crusade_
>is very accurate. Even the the mid-1940's there were three guns
>on a B-17 that could shoot the plane down - Radio gunner and both
>waist positions. This doesn't include all the mounts that were faulty,
>poorly maintained, or had the blocks removed (perhaps as part of a
>jury-rigged field repair).
>
>The example in question - an outdated Gazelle shooting itself - is
>unusual, but not impossible. That production run of Gazelle's gun
>turrets probably depended on computer-based safeties instead of
>mechanical ones, and there was a glitch or
>incompatibility with the program - perhaps the intended "Gazelle
>Upper Turret Gunnery Program" had been lost and replaced with an
>older, generic gunnery program intended for turrets that _did_ have
>mechanical safeguards.
>
>Most military hardware (and probably software) expects you to know
>what you are doing, after all.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>
To add to this. I'm post to a ship witch can shoot it self (temp problem).
The wedge never came with the ship(she is only 2 yr.. old). Still waiting
for the wedge.

Wayne

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #769
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 770



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Is your star system Important?
Mayday
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: Question about radiation shielding
re: Question on Radiation Shielding
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Vilani Vice
Who operates System Defence Squadrons?
re: Question on Radiation Shielding
[OT] Shutting down....
Re: Piloting
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: Vilani Vice 
Re: Question on Radiation Shielding 
Re: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:13 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Is your star system Important?

Is your star system Important?
Do long-haul trade corporations have bases in your system?
IMTU there are three basic types of worlds:

	Unimportant.  These worlds contribute insignificant amounts
	of goods to the interstellar economy.  These worlds are fun
	adventure sites due to their relative wildness.
	
	Common.  These worlds contribute to the local interstellar
	economy, and act as feeders to the Important worlds.  These
	worlds are good places to find skilled work or skilled workers, 
	for cheap, or to find bargain used equipment in various states
	of disrepair, or to find pirates awaiting that intermittent
	easy-target high-value cargo freighter.

	Important.  These worlds contribute significantly to the
	local interstellar economy, and serve as bases and terminals
	for long-haul trade and travel corporations.  These worlds
	are good places to find high-tech goodies, mercenary tickets,
	assassins, politically-inspired chaos, and Megacorps.

Important worlds are usually on an X-boat route (or its equivalent).

MTU has 2 ways to determine world Importance:

1. The referee can rule a world as "Important" by fiat.

2. The traveller can use a rule-of-thumb.  In general, a world is
   Unimportant if one of these is true:
      the TL can't support long-haul trade (0-9)
      the mainworld is poor (Po) or non-industrial (Ni)
      the system is a Red zone.

   Now we can make some checks to see if the world is Important, or
   merely Common.

   Based on my & Jon Buller's local-trade rules, I evolved a complex formula 
   using the UWP to determine world importance.  Then I iteratively simplified
   the formula, distilling out what I believe to be the most important
   elements in the system's UWP, leaving a simple way to sift lists of
   UWPs.

   The world IS Important if it has at least 3 characteristics
   from the list below.  Otherwise it is Common.

   Trade code [ Ag, Ri, Hi, In, Cp, Cx ]
   Naval base
   Starport A or B

   The more characteristics the system has, the more Important it is,
   with the maximum possible being 5 (I think).  Glisten is a 5.

This very simple rule of thumb yields these 25 worlds in the Spinward Marches:

Caladbolg     1329 B365776-A  S Ag Ri              710 Im F7 V M0 D M4 D
Capon         2324 B747748-A  N Ag                 610 Im M9 D
Chronor       0304 A6369A5-D  Z Hi Cp              304 Zh M8 V
Chwistyoch    0904 B766766-A  Z Ag Ri           A  424 Zh M2 V
Collace       1237 B628943-D  S Hi In              101 Cs F1 V M6 D
Efate         1705 A646930-D  B Hi In              810 Im K4 V
Feri          2005 B384879-B  S Ri                 620 Im G4 V M3 D
Glisten       2036 A000986-F  A Hi Na In As Cp     821 Im K9 V
Gram          1223 A895957-B  M Hi In Cp           603 Sw F2 D M2 D
Iderati       0732 A887798-C  N Ag Ri Cp           201 Im M2 V
Jewell        1106 A777999-C  A Hi In Cp           623 Im G7 V
Joyeuse       1123 B464778-A  M Ag Ri           A  201 Sw M3 V M9 D
Karin         0534 A767768-C  A Ag Ri           A  410 Im M7 V
Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im M3 D M7 D
Mertactor     1537 B262732-B  S Cp                 610 Im G1 V
Mire          0527 A665A95-B  M Hi Cp              110 Da M3 V
Mora          3124 AA99AC7-F  A Hi In Cx           112 Im M4 V
Narsil        0927 B574A55-A  M Hi In              224 Sw M0 II M6 D
Pallique      3029 A511965-E    Hi Na In Ic     A  320 Im M1 V M0 D
Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V
Rhylanor      2716 A434934-F  A Hi Cp              810 Im M2 VI
Sacnoth       1325 B775956-C  M Hi In              801 Sw F9 V M8 D
Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im M0 V M4 D
Trin          3235 A894A96-F  A Hi In Cp           101 Im M0 V
Vilis         1119 A593943-A    Hi In              820 Im G5 V M8 D

Vland has 32 Important worlds, and Core has 28.  I think they should
probably have a lot more than the Marches, but I'll leave that for
another day and another revision.

Traffic Implication IMTU:

Unimportant worlds may have local trade routes, but typically are
isolationist, backwater, or frontier worlds serviced by tramp freighters... 
depending on the sector and the referee, of course.

Common worlds use the "Rob & Jon" traffic model to determine local
(subsector) traffic through that system.  They lack the incredible
resources of the top 6% of systems, but may still be very well off.

Important worlds use the "Rob & Jon" traffic model to determine local
(subsector) traffic through that system.  To determine sector and
trans-sector traffic through that system, divide distances by 4, or
perhaps use the X-Boat jumproute for distance calculations.  Use these
"shortened" distances as inputs into the traffic model, and use 
"nearby" Important worlds as destinations for the traffic.  The traffic
number generated might be correct for people; however, the cargo volume
should be very high -- say, 25 times the passenger value, in tons.

For example, if long-haul passenger traffic is from 550 to 1600 people 
per week between Regina and Rhylanor, then long-haul cargo traffic would be 
from 14,000 to 40,000 tons per week, implying there are from 16 to 50 
10,000-ton freighters plying the X-Boat lanes between those two worlds.


Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:11:21 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Mayday

I've picked up some wonderful things from listening in on the list
(The Traveller Adventure, Missiles in Traveller, CT Striker for example).
Just one more thing I'm looking for: _Mayday_. It's the only Classic 
Traveller boardgame I haven't had a chance to tinker with yet.

If anyone sees a copy in their local friendly neighborhood game store,
could you let me know? I'm not that concerned with the condition of
the box as I am with having all the rules and such.

Thanks,
Walt Smith
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:24:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

There was some discussion about this on trav-tech recently. By itself, the
just-plain-hull of a ship is probably inadequate for shielding against a 
major solar flare. However, this is clearly unacceptable for the canon of
the Traveller universe - ships emerging from jump would have a small-but-
significant chance of emerging into a flare, so all starship crews would 
get killed about 1 jump out of a hundred. One has to either assume that
(a) there's some layer of Magical Radiation Shield Material on the inside of 
the hull, or (b) clever ship design (using fuel as shielding and/or 
machinery) protects the crew and passenger spaces, especially if the ship
is rolled/turned to put the thick bits between the crew and the star (eg
the engines have enough bulk to absorb nearly all the radiation, so one
just makes sure you emerge from jump with your tail pointed at the target
star; design the ship so there's enough pointing margin that you can correct
your course to reach the safety of a planet's magnetic field.)

(b) still leaves room for making life tough for players with the (very rare)
big flare or when visiting a double star system, but overall, since 
interstellar travel is common, ships must be protected from the sorts of 
flares you get in most inhabited systems.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:57:33 +0100
> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> 
> >Vilani Vice
> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> just too scary...

Crocket:  Chief just called.  Seems there's a report of supply over-
          requisitioning over at the Second Section Subassembly Transport
          Works.  We're supposed to jump on 'em.

Tubbs:    Man...those dudes are a bad bunch...actually failed to file
          form 107a(iii) *two months running*.  I have a nasty feeling
          about this one, Crockett.

Crockett: You're right.  We'd better be ready for serious action.

[Standing, Crocket scoops two copies of the ten-centimeter-thick hardbound
edition of "Procedures and Standards Relevant to Supply Requisitioning,
Transport-Production-Specific Regulations, Abridged," tosses one to Tubbs,
and strides purposefully out of the room.  Moments later, we see the two
hop into a late-model, daring light-beige ground car, and proceed at an
urgent yet safety-conscious speed down the road, into the darkness...]

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:27:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

>I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
>Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
>permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
>Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
>theory changed since then?

Dampers can cause radioactive material to become non-radioactive (though how
they do this without causing said material to emit a HUGE burst of 
radiation is a mystery.) However, they can't do anything to block the
actual alpha/beta/gamma/etc. rays that are flying through the air...they 
destroy radioactive material, not absorb radiation. So a damper could only
reduce the effects of a solar flare by damping the source of the radiation - 
the star - which is somewhat impractical.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:40:43 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Question on Radiation Shielding

Bruce Allan Macintosh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So a damper could only
reduce the effects of a solar flare by damping the source of the radiation - 
the star - which is somewhat impractical.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut to wild-eyed Darrian scientist....

"Pinky...are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

<g>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:49:32 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

>Suns, sand, fast gravcars, and *interesting* clothes.
Nah, that's "Vilnai Five-O"...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:50:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

Legate Legion wrote:

> 
> << 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>
> 
> "Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)


Oh, lordy...I'd forgotten Gareth Blackstock!

_I_ was thinking of the Vilani leader breaking into R&B...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> Dampers can cause radioactive material to become non-radioactive (though
> how they do this without causing said material to emit a HUGE burst of 
> radiation is a mystery.)

How they do it without causing non-radioactive materials to become radioactive
is also a mystery, given canon explanation on it (i.e. it strengthens or
weakens the strong nuclear force).  Described behavior is probably more
consistent with adjusting the range of the strong nuclear force, thus adjusting
the chance of tunneling without seriously impacting the total potential energy
of the nucleus.  Alternately, it could be some effect which manipulates the
chance of tunneling occuring, but I think that would have horrible effects on
normal chemistry as well.

As far as it goes, though, is there any reason not to have dampers trigger a
HUGE burst of radiation?  Striker seemed to suggest that it triggered
low-energy decay (which has horrible consequences in terms of energy
conservation, but the generic damper does anyway).  Later things haven't really
specified what the effect was, so it might well disable weapons by triggering a
sufficient burst of radiation to cause the fissile material to melt.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:40:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:57:33 +0100
> > From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> >
> > >Vilani Vice
> > Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> > Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> > just too scary...
> 
> Crocket:  Chief just called.  Seems there's a report of supply over-
>           requisitioning over at the Second Section Subassembly Transport
>           Works.  We're supposed to jump on 'em.
> 
> Tubbs:    Man...those dudes are a bad bunch...actually failed to file
>           form 107a(iii) *two months running*.  I have a nasty feeling
>           about this one, Crockett.
> 
> Crockett: You're right.  We'd better be ready for serious action.
> 
> [Standing, Crocket scoops two copies of the ten-centimeter-thick hardbound
> edition of "Procedures and Standards Relevant to Supply Requisitioning,
> Transport-Production-Specific Regulations, Abridged," tosses one to Tubbs,
> and strides purposefully out of the room.  Moments later, we see the two
> hop into a late-model, daring light-beige ground car, and proceed at an
> urgent yet safety-conscious speed down the road, into the darkness...]

Hey hey hey! We're talkin Vilani Vice, here, not Bwap Vice...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:54:32 +0100
From: Andy Hull <andy@rlyeh.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Who operates System Defence Squadrons?

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDCFB2.43C8BFC0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have searched through all of the T4/M0 material I have and still can't =
determine who is responsible for operating SDB Squadrons, within the =
Imperium. I know that individual member worlds are responsible for =
defending their own planet (conventional military, planetary defence =
bunkes, close orbit fighters, etc.). The question is does the Imperial =
Navy manage SDB Sqr or the member world????

Does anyone have any information on generic SDB Sqr organisation?

Thanks in advance...

Andy
andy@rlyeh.demon.co.uk

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:15:41 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: re: Question on Radiation Shielding

_Jovian_Chronicles_ has an interesting work around.

"SCREENS

Early space vessels relied on sensors and heavily shielded 'storm rooms' to
protect the crew against solar flares and other cosmic radiations. The
problem became more acute while setting up the mining colonies in Jupiter's
orbit: the radiation belts forced the construction of specially armored
stations, very costly and not all that safe.

With the space emigration boom, a solution was found: why not equip each
station and vessel with a magnetic shield generator similar in effect to
the field surrounding Earth? Power was plentiful, and the new equipment
stopped almost all harmful radiations. It even had two side bonuses; it
stopped the smallest space debris (which could damage a spaceship) and,
more importantly, it reduced the effectiveness of the weapons used against
the vessel.

The screens do not affect the game. They exist soley to explain why humans
can live near a dangerous radiation belt and not start glowing after a few
minutes. They also help explain why a multi-megawatt laser or a
hyper-velocity slug does not vaporize an exo-armor on the spot.

This system is free and should not be confused with the reactive shield
from the Techbook. The magnetic screen will only stop radiations and very
small particles, never weapon fire. At best, it will slow it down. Furture
technical refinements, however, may make the reactive field possible.

A clever gamemaster will use this to his advatage: a colony cylinder is
hard to destroy, but what about destroying the shield generator."

(from Jovian Chronicles (the Mekton source-book, not the later game) p42
ISBN 2-921573-07-5)

I use modifications of this hand-wave in all my SF gaming. It solves an
embarassing problem while introducing all sorts of fun details. The
magnetic field would need to be very powerful to compensate for lack of
depth. Vessels and stations develop their own radiation belts as long as
the field is on. EVA suits powered by a tether can also be shielded. Any of
suits, vessels or stations can be sabotaged in a deliciously insidious
manner. PCs are much more powerful without resorting to personal
battleships.


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:26:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Shutting down....

Due to imminent holidays and GenCon the day after I return, I'm not going
to be following the fun for a bit. Catch you all after the 7th September 98.

Any BITS or personal emails sent in this period may get read on 3rd Sept if
I get enough time.

All the best,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:23:46 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
> > Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft,
> > there have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or
> > aircraft from its own guns...
> Okay, that _was_ a mistake on my part.  But the players went along with
> it.

Well, at least you admit it...

> > > However, they did make it to the rendezvous ... changed to the
> > > freighter ... and got it to the right destination without
> > > misjumping. Once on the planet (Tarsus/District 268), they
> > > encountered a terrorist group. "Ah, ha. This must be the covert
> > > Special Ops team." they said, and handed over their cargo of
> > > weapons and supplies! Getting the weapons back from the
> > > terrorists involved a number of running gun battles through the
> > > streets of the capital city, after which they were 'asked' to
> > > leave.
> > What no sign, counter-sign?
> The terrorists never intended such a disception.  I  was  stunned
> when the party came up with this all by themselves.

I myself would have had the terrorists, use the weapons the party just gave
them, to kill off the party...

> > > This is when the pilot failed his roll ... during take-off ...
> <snip>
> > So far, not good... I do wonder if the GM had it in for the players...
> No, that was just bad dice rolls.

You should not have to make rolls for what is a normal thing...

Skill Level	Normal Action (Pilot/Ships Boat Skill Here)
0		Nothing
1		Takeoffs & Landings from a Port & General Manuevering in an Atmosphere
2		Orbital insertion & Deorbit Burn
3		Fuel Skimmin
4		Asteroidial Takeoffs & Landings
5+		You are a Master, use only in truly unusual times...

> > > I'll not say any more as this is currently ongoing.
> > Please don't
> Oh, okay.

Thank you...  I do not want to ruin you game for you...

> Regards PLST

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:39:42 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > << 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>
> > "Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)
> Oh, lordy...I'd forgotten Gareth Blackstock!

You forgot the "stock" answer...  And you live in Arizona...  10pm
Saturdays on channel 8...

> _I_ was thinking of the Vilani leader breaking into R&B...

Oh, their version of Bubba Clinton...

ObTrav:  I have been working on an idea of a major sex scandale breaking on
one world & then it reaches the 3I, what do you all think their reaction
would be, esp. after the people of this world lose whatever confidence they
have in this leader...

> Bruce Johnson

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:29:18 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> >What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
> Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and
talk
> with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.

Oh, they sound like real party animals...

I would have to say that they would do what any other humans with two sexs
do...  If you get my point...

> >Vilani Vice
> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> just too scary...

Please no, not that...  No...

> Jo

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:36:13 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> > >Vilani Vice
> > Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> > Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> > just too scary...
> 
> Crocket:  Chief just called.  Seems there's a report of supply over-
>           requisitioning over at the Second Section Subassembly Transport
>           Works.  We're supposed to jump on 'em.

Why not Chef?

> Tubbs:    Man...those dudes are a bad bunch...actually failed to file
>           form 107a(iii) *two months running*.  I have a nasty feeling
>           about this one, Crockett.
> 
> Crockett: You're right.  We'd better be ready for serious action.
> 
> [Standing, Crocket scoops two copies of the ten-centimeter-thick
hardbound
> edition of "Procedures and Standards Relevant to Supply Requisitioning,
> Transport-Production-Specific Regulations, Abridged," tosses one to
Tubbs,
> and strides purposefully out of the room.  Moments later, we see the two
> hop into a late-model, daring light-beige ground car, and proceed at an
> urgent yet safety-conscious speed down the road, into the darkness...]

LOL

>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:32:58 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> > >What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
> > Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and
talk
> > with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.
> You're forgetting the illegal pirate BBSes where people swap recipes.

Oh no, not pirate BBSs where people swap recipes...

Oh my god, my mother must be Vilani...  That makes me half Vilani...  Help
me... *weg*

> > >Vilani Vice
> > Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> Suns, sand, fast gravcars, and *interesting* clothes.

I see the Vilani Crocket & Tubs not wearing bow-ties, but string ties...
 
Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:44:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Question on Radiation Shielding 

> Bruce Allan Macintosh wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> So a damper could only
> reduce the effects of a solar flare by damping the source of the radiation - 
> the star - which is somewhat impractical.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Cut to wild-eyed Darrian scientist....
> 
> "Pinky...are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

"I think so, Brain, but wasn't "Three's Company" cancelled 3500 years ago?

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:55:27 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Gun Mounts (was re: Piloting)

Wayne Ewart wrote:
> Walter Smith wrote:
> > Legate Legion wrote:
> > > Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships &
> > > aircraft, there have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that
> > > protect the ship or aircraft from its own guns...
<snip>
> > The example in question - an outdated Gazelle shooting itself
> > - is unusual, but not impossible. That production run of
> > Gazelle's gun turrets probably depended on computer-based
> > safeties instead of mechanical ones, and there was a glitch
> > or incompatibility with the program - perhaps the intended
> > "Gazelle Upper Turret Gunnery Program" had been lost and
> > replaced with an older, generic gunnery program intended for
> > turrets that _did_ have mechanical safeguards.
> >
> > Most military hardware (and probably software) expects you to
> > know what you are doing, after all.
>
> To add to this. I'm post to a ship witch can shoot it self (temp
> problem).  The wedge never came with the ship(she is only 2 yr..
> old). Still waiting for the wedge.

Also, don't forget:  Gazelle's are built on government  contract.
Therefore, they are built by the lowest  bidder!  It  could  have
been a design flaw, like the air filters on  the  Suleiman  class
Type-S Scout/Courier.

This is a strange thread.  The Gazelle in question  was  inspired
by a scene in the third Indiana Jones movie  (as  Walter  noted).
It was fun at the time but in retrospect I don't buy  it  myself.
I was improvising and made an error.  Now people  are  coming  up
with reasons how this might be so!



Regards PLST
"Its like deja vu, all over again."

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #770
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Traveller-digest       Monday, August 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 771



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The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate
Re: Vilani Vice
Re:  Vilani leaders
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Military Benefits
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)
Re: first post/culture question
Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: first post/culture question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:14:16 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:02:26 -0400, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

>> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

>> Note carefully that it requires the Moot to provide et cetera; it
>> says nothing about whether the Emperor is required to follow that
>> advice et cetera.  The entire Moot can say "This is a Bad Idea,
>> Your Imperial Majesty.  We urge you not to do it." The Emperor
>> can say "Get stuffed.  I want to do it, and I am the Emperor.  It
>> will be done."  The Moot then has two choices:  say "As you will,
>> Your Imperial Majesty.", or call for a convention of the full
>> Moot, during which they may put forth for vote a proposal to
>> dissolve the Imperium.  If this vote succeeds by a majority of
>> the _sum_total_of_the_nobles_of_the_Imperium_, the Imperium
>> ceases to exist.  Along with it goes the Imperial nobility, the
>> Imperial armed services, and so on.

>Yes, which is why the "Right of Assassination" came into being. I've always 
>seen the constitution of the Imperium as being an unwritten one (akin to that of 
>the Westminster system), which allows for it to changed in exceptional 
>circumstances. So in 245 the Moot is faced with an Emperor who is plainly 
>ignoring their advice and unfit to rule; what are their options. legally they can 
>either do nothing or disband the Imperium; neither of which is practical. 
>Therefore they act and remove the Emperor. Thereby they create a new 
>constitutional precedent (that the Moot may remove an unfit Emperor).

Nobody is arguing that Cleon III should have been kept on the
throne; viewing the Moot action as a rebellion, it becomes clear
that the government had lost the consent of the governed, and the
Moot rebellion is a legitimate response with a long precedent,
even if we restrict our view to Solomani history.  But to then
claim that it is the same Imperium is definitely questionable.

By the way, remember that I'm looking at this as a "strict
constructionist" to some extent, quite frankly with the ulterior
motive of provoking discussion and further analysis (and less
hate-spewing and anti-Americanism).  If it became necessary, I
could come up with arguments to support the legitimacy of almost
any of the pre-Alkhalikoi Emperors.

>> >>From this I'd say the power of law derives from the Imperium and that the Moot
>> >represents the Imperium to the Emperor. However this is all theoretical. In
>> >practice of course the Emperor is supreme by the authority of the Imperial
>> >fleet. The "Right of Assassination" is an interesting point here; it gives the
>> >Moot the right to remove an Emperor (putting the Moot above the Emperor).

>> Actually, the power of law in the Imperium derives from the
>> barely restrained megalomania of a certain Cleon Zhunastu, and
>> the acceptance of his assertions in the Warrant.

>De facto yes, de jure is another matter entirely. This is an important distinction. 
>Most governments need a de jure legitimisation. Thus in the Imperium of 1116 
>we can argue that the Moot is de jure superior to the Emperor (various 
>constitutional precedents would be advanced to support this); but in the 
>situation the de facto supremacy of the Emperor is quite evident.

De jure legitimization occurs when your government enters into
and can enforce the kinds of agreements that only make sense when
dealing with a sovereign government.  Or when another government
that claims hegemony over the same territory you do acknowledges
your hegemony and renounces its own claims.  Once the Senad of
the Sylean Federation accepted Cleon's proclaiming the Third
Imperium, it was de jure and de facto legitimate.

>>The right of
>> assassination has no basis in the Warrant, and was basically a
>> Moot running amok, unless Cleon the Mad had no qualified issue.
>> Cleon's madness would not be "just and proper cause" (Article
>> III) for disqualifying the heirs unless it was clearly exhibited
>> in those heirs.  The "right of fleet control" that was asserted
>> by Olav is equally nonsense under the Warrant.

>I'd see the Right of Assassination as the Moot acting to correct an oversight in 
>the Warrant (or at least that's how the Moot would argue it). Thus while the 
>Warrant is the first constitutional document of the Imperium, I'd be very 
>surprised if its the only one.

Let's be careful here; in the context we're discussing,
"Constitutional" has to pretty much mean "fundamental/core" and
with an at least implicit requirement that it be more
"change-resistant" than ordinary law.  It may very well be the
only Constitutional document of the Imperium.  Although, like the
U.S. Constitution, it may have a good deal of case law defining
its interpretation.

>I'd expect that when Cleon II abdicated something was put in place to deal with 
>the constitutional issues (perhaps Cleon did adopt Artemsus, perhaps some 
>other constitutional avenue was pursued). Martin I, here I'd extend the definition 
>in Article II "provided that such child shall have been publicly acknowledged as 
>the rightful heir". Thus we get that the oldest is default, but that the Emperor 
>can select a younger sibling (aside just what intrigue went on to keep the elder 
>child out). Thus nothing here needs to negate the Warrant. Now on to Cleon III, 
>Porifia is on the face of things a more legitimate candidate. However perhaps 
>Martin II did not publicly acknowledge any heir and maybe the memory of the 
>Julian War had tainted the Lentuli dynasty and the Moot choose to restore the 
>Zhunastu dynasty. A close reading of Article III indicates that if the Emperor 
>leaves no direct heir "by blood or adoption" then the Moot is _not_ forced to 
>automatically chose the closest blood heir. Again nothing here has directly 
>contradicted the Warrant.

No, but the Emperors' List in the old Library Data booklets
(where I got the names and circumstances of ascension of the
Emperors) makes no mention of the "mitigating circumstances" (or
rather, the reasons for disqualification); rather, it calls out
unusual circumstances, implying at least the possibility of some
"irregularity" in the ascension.  Certainly, there are possible
explanations, and in fact, as you mention, Cleon II may have
adopted Artemsus and named him heir - but we don't know for sure;
all we know is that Cleon II abdicated in favor of Artemsus -
which leaves things open to question.  (Which makes for good
discussion on the TML, and good politics in Traveller.)

>> Subsequent Emperors, by assassination (Cleon IV), right of fleet
>> control (Olav), and self-proclamation by any theory (Constantus,
>> George) are absolutely nothing more than usurping pretenders.

>Cleon IV did not claim "Right of Assassination", if he had there would be no 
>doubt as to who assassinated Nicholle (Cleon IV is _believed_ to be 
>responsible for her death, if he claimed RoA there would be no doubt). It 
>appears that although many of the Barracks Emperors claimed the throne by 
>"Right of Fleet Control" this concept was not accepted as a legitimate 
>constitutional precedent as it is only mentioned in association of Olav (though it 
>probably was used by Donald). Others may have used it to support their 
>acceptance by the Moot, in which case it becomes a legitimate constitutional 
>precedent.

Whoops, you're right about Cleon IV.  Substitute Emdiri; the
point otherwise is unchanged.  And your comment thereon is still
perfectly valid, although I question whether using fleet control
to "support" Moot acceptance can _ever_ be legitimate; consider a
roughly equivalent scenario:  "I have discussed this with the
rest of the Armed Forces General Staff; the Army will march on
Washington on my order unless you pass this legislation/
Constitutional Amendment."

Fleet control doesn't sound so legitimate any more, does it?

>> The ascension of Arbellatra was possibly the most responsible
>> exercise of the Moot power to act in absence of a clear heir
>> (Article III).  The subsequent Emperors of the Alkhalikoi
>> dynasty, through Strephon, form a case study of the _proper_
>> pattern of Imperial succession under the Warrant.

>Definitely. I'll leave a constitutional analysis of the issues raised by "Strephons" 
>assassination for another post.

But... That's where it _really_ gets fun! :)
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:12:46 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

Keven Pittsinger wrote in response to Jo Grant:

>> >What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
>>
>> Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and talk

What?  What?  What M:0 novel?  
 
>> >Vilani Vice
>>
>> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
>
>Suns, sand, fast gravcars, and *interesting* clothes.

This actually sounds like a GREAT idea for a campaign of some sort.  IMHO.

There's actually a canonical sort of hook to hang it on, right in _Vilani and
Vargr_:  the Admegun Rangers, who patrol Vland's "vacation/nature reserve"
continent, chock-full of shady import/export magnates relaxing in the sun and
off-world "tourists"...

>> Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
>> just too scary...
>
>Too scary for me...

Come, now, it only gets scary if Famille Spofulam is underwriting the new
series.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:12:54 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Vilani leaders

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in
>command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on
>any Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited
>and will follow the chef wherever they go.

Problem?  That's not a problem, that'a a feature.

'An army marches on its stomach'; 'the way to a man's heart is through his
stomach'.  

These proverbs conclusively demonstrate that Earth has already fallen under
the cultural domination of Sharurshid.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:17:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

Legate Legion wrote:
> 
> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > > << 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>
> > > "Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)
> > Oh, lordy...I'd forgotten Gareth Blackstock!
> 
> You forgot the "stock" answer...  And you live in Arizona...  10pm
> Saturdays on channel 8...

'live in Arizona' <> 'Live in Hell^h^h^h Phoenix...'

You wanna real flamewar? Forget near-C rocks, pirates, or WWII...try
Phoenix vs Baja Arizona...;-)

Anyway it's on Channel _6_, _Thursdays_ at 10.
 
> > _I_ was thinking of the Vilani leader breaking into R&B...
> 
> Oh, their version of Bubba Clinton...

Actually, Chef, from South Park was what I had in mind...
 
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:07:09 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

- -----Original Message-----
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits


>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:37:26 GMT
>> From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>>
>> Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will
>> not die (or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later.
>
>I can't believe it would be that soon.  Take an 18-year-old kid who joins
>up in 1945.  Let him wait until he's 48 to have a child (late, but not all
>that uncommon).  That puts the kid's birth in 1975.  Said kid then lives
>the Biblical three score and ten (less than the projected mean lifespan,
>btw), and that puts his/her death in 2045.  Even with the child born when
>the veteran is only 28, the 70-year-old offspring dies in 2025.  Or look
>at it this way:  A child born to a WWII vet *in 1945* will be only 65 in
>2010.
>
>In short:  Something's fishy with your statement, unless we give a very
>liberal interpretation to 'or later.'
>
> Craig Berry>
>
Actually the key word here is dependent.  Children 19 and over are no longer
dependents unless they go to college and even then they lose eligibility at
age 22.  If they have an ailment that makes them stay a dependent past their
19th birthday then they generally are converted to the Medi?(-Care/c-Aide)
program.  That means that only wives of the vets are dependents. Even if
they were 12 in 1945 (the youngest legal age to get married in any state I
believe) they would be 77 years old.  It sounds like 2010 actually isn't
that far from an accurate number.  There will of course always be an
exception; one will probably live to be 160 just to prove ME wrong!

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:34:21 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:38:24 -0400, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

>> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

>The issues raised by 1116 are extremely interesting. They show a very deep 
>malaise within the Empire; basically by 1116 the Empire was rotten to the 
>core. Without reforms (such as Dulinor wanted and Norris effected) it was only 
>a matter of time before it collapsed.

You're clearly correct about reforms being needed - but I
question whether Norris maybe didn't go farther than strictly
necessary in essentially converting to a pure republican model
from an Imperial model.

>> The assassination of "Strephon" (actually a clone - an act of bad
>> judgement on Strephon's part, compounded by concealing his
>> absence from his family and the Moot - or did he?),

>It is certain that Strehon acted extremely foolishly and almost certainly 
>unconstitutionally. For the Empire to be ruled effectively in crisis it requires 
>certainty, with the Emperor absent there can be no certainty. By removing 
>himself from the Capital without putting in place provisions for a crisis show a 
>dreadful lack of judgement. The only possible "excuse" would be that he did not 
>trust his subordinates (which would be in itself *very* telling).

We have to be careful when we start using the word
"Constitutional".  While communication made exercising direct
day-to-day control problematical, legally, the Emperor of the
Third Imperium, even as late as Strephon, was an absolute ruler,
with no more control over him than Stalin (though certainly with
a better record of benevolence), rather than being a
"Constitutional Monarch" along the lines of the post-Magna-Carta
sovereigns of England.  Remember that according to the Warrant -
the document on which the _entire_ legitimacy of the Imperium
ultimately rests - the Moot has two choices: "Yes, Your Imperial
Majesty" or a very messy version of hara-kiri.

Certainly, there is bad judgement (plenty of it, in fact)
involved, on many sides - but that should not have led to the
collapse (not the Collapse) of the Imperium.

>> which set off
>> the Rebellion, and indirectly the Collapse, represents a
>> situation where previous poor decisions and an unwillingness to
>> act decisively led to problems.  The key previous poor decision
>> was the (illegitimate) creation/acceptance of the "right of
>> assassination"; had this never been enshrined in any way, Dulinor
>> would never have been able to make a claim to the Iridium throne.

>Very very definitely. The "fault" here lies at the feet of Cleon I and the Warrant 
>of Restoration which provided no means for the removal of an unfit Emperor. If 
>the Moot in 245 had not been faced with the need to remove Cleon III and no 
>"legal" means they would never have resorted to such a radical move. However 
>this in itself would not have been so bad if it were not for the actions of the 
>Moot during the Barracks Emperors period. By accepting Emperors who 
>claimed RoA (of the 18 barracks Emperors, 6 claimed RoA and 3 of them had it 
>accepted by the Moot) the Moot effectively legitimised a very dangerous 
>constititutional precedent, one which up till that time had been of very dubious 
>legality. In effect the cause of the ultimate demise of the Imperium was a part of 
>its creation.

I question whether there was a necessity to make provisions for
removal - and to do so would have absolutely compromised the
absolute power of the Emperor.  Something that Cleon Zhunastu
could not possibly have found acceptable, given his goals.

Regicide has plenty of precedent, as does usurpation, and even
rebellion.  They are all legitimate (but not legal) means of
forcing change.  However, regicide is - with good reason, I think
- - the _least_ common method used.

(As a side note here, Gerald Ford ruled out absolutely the use of
assassination (and therefore regicide) as an instrument of US
foreign policy.  Consider the potential result of response in
kind.)

If the Moot felt it necessary to remove Cleon III (as they did),
they could have "arrested" him quietly (since there was evidently
a lot of support for his removal - there was no Rebellion as
happened in 1116) and run the Imperium "in the name of the
Emperor".  Or, they could have pulled a Runnymede the way the
English barons did with John in 1215 (Terran Common Era date).  

>> The proper order of succession would have been to Iphegenia, then
>> to Varian, then to Lucan (given that none of them had issue at
>> the time of the assassination).  Iphegenia was killed with the
>> clone of her father by Dulinor (Iolanthe would have had no
>> legitimacy other than that of Strephon.  Upon his death,
>> regardless of her survival, Iphegenia becomes the Empress, and
>> Iolanthe becomes the Empress Mother), thus handing the succession
>> to Varian.  Varian was murdered under mysterious circumstances,
>> possibly by Lucan; nevertheless, it is clear that Lucan would
>> have been the most legitimate claimant to the throne.  The Moot
>> can either confirm or disqualify; there is no third route. 

>More critical is the total failure to in any way prepare the 3rd in line for the 
>throne. This was an unforgivable error which had predictable results, one can 
>also only assume that Varian received similar training for the role of Emperor as 
>Lucan. Again the only possible excuse is that the Imperial succession was so 
>insecure that no potential rival claimant could be "encouraged".

And even that's not an excuse, as the documented line of
succession was clear.  If Strephon really had concerns about
Varian or Lucan attempting to usurp Iphegenia's right, he could
have easily arranged to have them be absent from Capital as long
as necessary after their majority, or even to be "accidentally
killed" (though this is rather extreme, and _very_ unwise if
there is _any_ public knowledge of the internal politics of the
Imperial Family).

>> They
>> chose to do neither (unwillingness to act decisively), and
>> compounded that error when they accepted Lucan's (illegal)
>> "dissolution" of the Moot.  The subsequent actions of the
>> archdukes of Vland, Antares, Ilelish, and even Deneb, and of Duke
>> Craig of Daibei were perhaps necessary, but definitely illegal
>> without the Moot meeting to dissolve the Imperium. 

>One can argue that their actions were in fact legitimate. When the succession 
>became disputed there was effectively no Emperor and thus the powers of the 
>Emperor devolved back to the Nobles on a local level (each noble was required 
>to act as Imperial proxy in their area of influence). Part of this authority would 
>include the right to grant portions of the Imperium dissolution from the Imperium 
>(precedent in the withdrawal from Querion subsector after the 3rd Frontier War). 
>Now this appears to be an example of "furious" legal thinking (it is), but this is 
>exactly how new constitutional processes might evolve in the 3rd Imperium. In 
>this case Norris retains the greatest legitimacy in that he did not seceed, but 
>rather choose to function as Imperial proxy.

Correct analysis, though built on shaky premises - provided that
none of the nobles in question explicitly declare independence.
Once Craig of Daibei, Ishuggi of Vland, and Bzrk of Antares
explicitly declared themselves to not be part of the Imperium,
their legitimacy as regents/proxies is void.  Dulinor would,
under such an analysis, be a murky case, as the problematical
"right of assassination" enters the picture.  Margaret and Norris
are both on the firmest legal ground - but that doesn't mean that
the legal ground is firm in an absolute sense.

>> Also
>> egregious was the actions of the nobles who rallied to Margaret,
>> who had no legitimate claim at the time of the assassination, and
>> of Margaret herself, who accepted the de-facto declaration of
>> independence without actually proclaiming it. 

>Margaret has almost as much legitimacy as Norris. While her actions were a 
>de-facto secession, she was de-jure merely acting as Imperial proxy.

Yes, as acknowledged above.  But still shaky.

>> Complicating the
>> matter was the fact of Strephon's survival; as it was a clone
>> that "bought it" from Dulinor, there should have been no question
>> of succession - if the Moot or the family knew, they should have
>> said something right off, and perhaps headed off the whole thing.
>> Lucan's failure to do so (assuming he knew) makes him a usurper,
>> with absolutely nothing to figleaf him into legitimacy.

>Strephons survival should have ended the matter right then and there (he was 
>still the legitimate Emperor). Again Strephon's failure to make adequate 
>provisions for a crisis in his absence is thrown into sharp relief.

Yes.  But Lucan may very well have known about the ceremonial
clones, and _not_ known that the real Strephon was off Capital at
the time.  Ignoring the question of whether he murdered Varian,
he properly claimed the Throne, and legitimately raised the
question of whether the real Strephon was in fact real - it
_could_ have been one of the clones - perhaps standing in for
Strephon as the ceremonial Marquis of Usdiki - claiming to be
Strephon (it wasn't - but we didn't know that at the time).

>> Strephon's subsequent de-facto abdication was moot, and
>> technically deficient (as he did not _publicly_ abdicate);

>Yep, his failure to make provison for crisis is further compounded by his failure 
>to act quickly to end it, despite the personal cost that would have entailed 
>(probably an enforced abdication al la Styryx). His failure to act quickly is still 
>further compounded by his failure to act effectively when he did finally act. He 
>should have been able to prove his legitimacy very simply (just transmit the 
>approriate authorisation codes and its all over). Strephon failed totally but this 
>does not remove his legitimacy.

Exactly.  Except that there may have been no simple way to prove
legitimacy without being on Capital, and _getting_there_ would
clearly have been ... difficult.

>> there
>> was no legitimacy to his acceptance of Norris's declaration of
>> independence

>By this stage all bets are off. The Imperium had de-facto ceased to exist (in 
>effect the Moot had voted by its members actions). Strephon as the most 
>legitimate surviving Imperial candidate acted responsibly by allowing the sole 
>surviving portion of the Empire to act independently.

No doubt - but in this case, responsibility and legality aren't
the same thing.  And as far as voting through actions, that's not
legitimate - it was the "crme de la crme" of the Moot-eligible
nobles that acted; the lower-level Moot-eligible nobles may very
well have been drowned out in the storm.  And the Warrant is
specific; it requires an absolute majority of all Imperial nobles
eligible to sit in Moot, not just those who are present at the
time of the vote.  That vote never happened.

>> - although you could make a shaky case that he
>> accepted Norris as Regent for Avery and withdrew Imperial
>> hegemony over the rest of the Imperium.  Avery's status as heir
>> is illegitimate prior to Lucan's death; questionable afterwards,

>Avery's status is quite clear. As the oldest surviving issue he is the most 
>legitimate successor after Strephon's death. The only possible disqualifier is 
>did Strephon publically acknowledge him?

But it's not clear, since we _don't_know_ whether Lucan is alive!
A living Lucan, if acknowledged (and he was), has priority over
Avery.  By 1200, it's really not an issue, except as I pointed
out in the analysis of the Regency - but at the time the Arrival
Vengeance took custody of Avery, it was a wide-open question.

>> since we don't know whether Iphegenia, Varian, or Lucan had any
>> issue prior to that time - or whether Strephon had any other
>> acknowledged then-living issue.

>Irrelvant, without a formal abdication, as long as Strephon lives he is Emperor 
>(there is no constitutional provision for removal of a reigning Emperor except for 
>Assassination or forced abdication). Therefore his oldest surviving issue (Avery) 
>is the most legitimate heir end of story (so long as Strephon publically 
>acknowledged him at some point).

Nope.  Avery was not his oldest surviving and acknowledged issue;
Lucan was.  Even if he _was_ a usurper.

>> If none of them had issue, _and_
>> Strephon formally adopted Avery and named him heir, then Avery is
>> the best claimant to the Iridium Throne.

>> Norris's actions to democratize the Regency were arguably legal,
>> as he was acting with the Emperor's sanction; however, in order
>> to complete the process, the nobility _must_ meet in Moot and
>> dissolve the Imperium

>One can quite convincingly argue that by thier actions they (the nobles who 
>made up the Moot) had effectively voted to desolve the Imperium.

Again, consider the requirement for an absolute majority.  In the
case of the Regency Reforms, one can argue that only the nobility
of the Regency must Moot to dissolve, as hegemony over the
remainder has been withdrawn - but Norris would still have needed
an absolute majority of that set to complete the reforms.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:15:04 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: first post/culture question

At 02:44 PM 8/24/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Some posts on the weekend regarding Solomani/Vilani cultures touched on 
>something I've been wondering about.  Namely how do we explain so many 
>Solomani sounding names for systems so far from Terra?
>
>I suppose Regina could have been called something else in the First 
>Imperium (I don't think Regina is a Vilani word).  Perhaps its name was 
>changed during Rule of Man or the foundation of the 3I?

Regina wasn't settled until the mid-400s, well into the Third Imperium, so
that one is explained easily.  For the others, Solomani officers early in
the 2I period probably account for that ("I'm the new Commander of
Zarguus.. Zaragusi.. err..  Star Lane Subsector!)

>A Traveller and Imperial Nobleman may call a planet X, but if a minor 
>race has been there for 5,000 years I can't see them referring to their 
>home by another name (assuming you view planet's inhabitants keeping 
>their cultures and not assimilating into a 3I melting pot).

This happens on Earth, witness the Falkland/Malvenas Island dispute between
England and Aregentina.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:39:15 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Steve Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I think
> the only legal way was to avenge the murder of ones own family member.
> I think there are germanic/nordic/viking traditions along similar lines
> with
> blood-debts, etc.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I believe I've heard of such things. A Viking(?) tradition where you
> could be found guilty of murder, but the court would not execute
> you.

Norse courts generally didn't execute judgements simply because they had
no executing body (Before the kings, Iceland is classic in this regard.).
(As a sidenote, the norse courts did not have the the death penalty as
such before christianity. (And our southern neighbours called our
forefathers barbarians, tsktsktsk. (Oops, sorry, didn't mean to make a
political statement. No flamewar, please. ;) ))) The Norse courts are very
interesting, but I'm starting to drift off topic.

> They would simply make it legal for the family of the victim
> or their designated agent to kill you. In some cases, the court would
> make it legal for anyone to kill you - a form of Outlawing.

This is basically correct.

> With respect to canon Right of Assasination, the limits seemed
> pretty clear.
> 
> 1. The assassin must be a Noble.

For practical purposes, duke/dutchess or preferrably archduke/-dutchess,
IIRC?

> 2. The Noble must perform the deed with his own hand.
> 3. The Moot must approve.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Case 3 should be the biggest control of the whole affair. You do this
> with the support of the Moot, or you get executed for Murder and
> High Treason. Just for fun, you may not get to find out just how
> supportive the Moot is of you until after you've done the deed.
> Maybe you'll be lucky, and the late Emperor's kid will be so happy
> with you for getting him on the throne early that he'll give you a pardon.
> 
> Maybe your daring plan was orchestrated/ennabled by him from
> the beginning...

Sounds like a great campaign. :)

Steinar

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:46:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:27:35 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)

> Dampers can cause radioactive material to become non-radioactive (though how
> they do this without causing said material to emit a HUGE burst of 
> radiation is a mystery.) However, they can't do anything to block the
> actual alpha/beta/gamma/etc. rays that are flying through the air...they 
> destroy radioactive material, not absorb radiation. So a damper could only
> reduce the effects of a solar flare by damping the source of the radiation

Myunderstanding is they strengthen the weak (?) nuclear forces and prevent
decay.  However, this would mean the material would only be non-radioactive
while in the damper field.  Afterwards the would just resume decaying normally.

You could, if you have someplace to put the energyand radiation released, turn
them around to make a material non-radioactive by making it decay faster until
it is cold.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:52:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

> >What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
> Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and talk
> with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.
> 
> >Vilani Vice
> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
> just too scary...

Hey, you, what are you doing not conforming properly? Zhunastu Industries
standard hair color not good enough for you?

Steinar -who think that holo-show would be incredibly boring by solomani
	standards. (But then again, most shows directed at vilani viewers
	are. (Make the most out of your money. 50 yrs government bonds
	looking good. Etc etc.))

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 03:00:58 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: first post/culture question

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Sean Nelson wrote:

> Some posts on the weekend regarding Solomani/Vilani cultures touched on 
> something I've been wondering about.  Namely how do we explain so many 
> Solomani sounding names for systems so far from Terra?

Good, old cultural imperialism. :)

> I suppose Regina could have been called something else in the First 
> Imperium (I don't think Regina is a Vilani word).  Perhaps its name was 
> changed during Rule of Man or the foundation of the 3I?

Someone who is more knowledgeable on the details of the settling of the
Marches would be better equipped to make some educated guesses there.
 
> If a lot of system names are relatively new (ie last 1100 years), would 
> they only be used by the "Imperial class."

Not necessarily.

> A Traveller and Imperial Nobleman may call a planet X, but if a minor 
> race has been there for 5,000 years I can't see them referring to their 
> home by another name (assuming you view planet's inhabitants keeping 
> their cultures and not assimilating into a 3I melting pot).

No problem, really. All official documents, and a lot of other sources
refer to the planet by its imperial name. In surprisingly few generations
I would guess youngsters would refer to their home planet by its imperial
name. This would have highest possibility of holding true if it was status
attached to the Imperium, which it generally has. Lots of real world
examples of this kind of mechanism. Also, changing a planet's name could
be a symbolic act upon membership in the Imperium. I see no problem with
the planet keeping its culture, _and_ still viewing the original name as
archaic.

> This may suggest that most planets (at least ones with native 
> inhabitants dating back to pre-3I) may have two names, a native one and 
> an Imperial one.

As pointed out, not necessarily.

Steinar

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #771
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 772



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Military Benefits
Room Temperature Superconductors
Re: Vilani Vice 
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate
re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Vilani leaders 
military service
Re: Convertible fuel tanks
Re: Military Benefits
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
fun with players and other creatures
Re: Question on Radiation Shielding
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)
Re: Piloting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:04:55 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

- -----Original Message-----
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits


>On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:03:46 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>>On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:50:51 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Or do you spend the next few years hanging around military bases
>>>>as an "Ex", hitching rides whenever you can find a ship going in
>>>>the general direction of home? (Admin and Bribery skills might be
>>>>useful here).
>>>
>>>There's some good stuff (even if I do say so myself) on Military Retirement
>>>Benefits in Dark Star #2, available from Hyperbooks.com online bookstore
>>(you'll
>>>have to ask Terry specially, as he doesn't have it listed on his web page).
>>>
>>>Things like Medical Care, Transport rights, Legal defence rights, rights to
>>>Government jobs, right to use Military/Government transit hostel facilities
>>etc.
>>>
>>>Makes the military a sensible career choice.
>>>
>>>Phil
>>
>>
>>Just so you know, they pay your way back to your "Home of Record".  The
>>place you lived when you enlisted/joined the military.  Oh, and Phil there
>>is another benefit that you left off....free burial with a head stone and an
>>Honor Guard.  Please, lets not forget that one.  Gives my wife someplace to
>>go in her old age.
>>
>>Thom Harris
>
>Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will not die
>(or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later.
>
>So you can add ... Widow's Pensions, Children's educational benefits, Children's
>access to OTC (doesn't West Point allow children of holders of specific medals,
>like the Medal of Honour, automatic access if they meet the academic and
>physical requirements rather than having to get their local Senator recommend
>them?).
>
>Not a totally awful deal.
>
>Phil
>
Hhhhmmm, you have a point.  Did they also tell you that the average life
expectancy after military retirement (20 year, not disability retirement) is
10.3 years.  BTW, I'm at 8 years and 11 months.  Did they mention that
almost 85% leave the military after 20 years with a 20% or more disability.
Mine is no one's business but my own.  Not even my wife knows.

There are a few other things that they don't mention that seems to have been
forgotten, time away from your family.  Unlike the Commander-In-Chief, I
don't believe in cheating on my wife so I had to endure severe cases of
"blue balls" from time to time (please pardon my language, I just couldn't
come up with a nicer way to say it).  When assigned to "hard ship" tours
(family can't come) you lived by yourself with AFN for radio and TV (if you
were lucky) and if you drank you could always go down to the "club" and get
sloshed every night.  Oh BTW, that left me out, I quit drinking alcohol in
1980 because I was warned that if I continued that my liver would move out.
This wasn't because I was an alcoholic, just something I picked up on one of
my little jaunts "overseas".

 I won't detail this with why I spent 175+ days in the hospital recovering
from various assorted and sundry things like; objects being removed from my
body; 21 fractured bones (11 vertebrae) from 12 separate incidents; a couple
of diseases I can't even spell right today and more.   I am however, due to
receive a new knee in the next three years paid for by my military
retirement.  Oh, another minor little thing which isn't too bad, I can never
give blood or donate organs, that is until medical science comes up with a
better filtering system.

Is it for everyone, NO!  Would I do it again, absolutely!!  Did I know what
I was getting myself into, pretty much after my first hitch.  Was I doing it
for the benefits and the pay, doesn't even deserve an answer.

Thom Harris
Chief Warrant Officer
U.S. Army (Ret) 1969 - 1989

P.S.
I looked into one of those Government jobs that you mentioned.  I would be
working for over $40,000 a year less than I make now in the civilian
industry.  Makes you want to ask what would I have been making for 16 of
those 20 years I was in the Army don't it.  If I had left the military back
in 1973 then I would probably be making close to double what I make today.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 21:33:38 Set the time zone in the Time preference utility
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Room Temperature Superconductors

In the August 17th edition of Electronic Design on page 26, there is a 
news 
column stating that a research team led by Deborah D.L. Chung PhD of the
University of Buffalo has developed room temperature superconductors 
using Carbon Composites.

If it's true, then we have high strength superconductors for use in all 
kinds of 
novel devices.  There are an awful lot of unanswered questions though.  
What is the maximum current density?  To what extent is flux pinning a 
problem?  etc...

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:47:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice 

> >> >Vilani Vice
> >>
> >> Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
> >
> >Suns, sand, fast gravcars, and *interesting* clothes.
> 
> This actually sounds like a GREAT idea for a campaign of some sort.  IMHO.
> 
> There's actually a canonical sort of hook to hang it on, right in _Vilani and
> Vargr_:  the Admegun Rangers, who patrol Vland's "vacation/nature reserve"
> continent, chock-full of shady import/export magnates relaxing in the sun and
> off-world "tourists"...

What do they smuggle in, yeast for breads & beers, or just contraband hotdogs?

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:25:16 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate

At 05:46 PM 8/23/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Pg. 49 MT IE.
>>    -Assasination, Right of: The right of assassination is certainly a
>> legitimate means
>>    of ascending to the throne, despite the implications of the SMART
>> library
>> data
>>    entry.
>
>Does this mean whoever actually kills the emperor becomes the emperor?If
>so, I don't want the job.

	I'm away from my references right now, but IIRC it's not just ANYBODY who
can assassinate a sitting emperor and become the new emperor. Usually it's
got to be somebody who can already make the claim stick anyway (by force of
arms, support among the Moot, however ...). "Right of Assassination" is
just some fig leaf to cover the fact that he/she got away with a coup.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:21 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Question about radiation shielding

At 01:39 PM 8/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Nuclear dampers can prevent chain reactions from starting within their
>field, but do not reduce ambiant radiation.  So while they will prevent
>the runaway chain reaction that culminates in a nuclear explosion,
>they would not effectively reduce the radiation front from one that goes
>off outside the field from affecting the area, nor reduce the effect of a
>solar flare. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
>Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
>permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
>Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
>theory changed since then?

	Nuclear dampers affect the SOURCE of the radiation--the atom which is
either decaying (fission) or being merged with another atom (fusion). It
doesn't affect the actual radiation itself.

	Thus, in order to remove the lingering radiation effects from a blast
site, it is either speeding up the reactions (causing the radioactive items
in the area to hurry up and finish emitting) or somehow stabilizing them so
they don't emit. But it won't do anything to radiation that's already
"passing through."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:49:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders 

> 'An army marches on its stomach'; 'the way to a man's heart is through his
> stomach'.  

The way to a man's heart is straight through the ribcage with a battleax.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:19:08 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: military service

Jen bangs out:
>Also, the US military action
>here was handled in a respectable fashion, with as little casualties as
>possible.
   Well...few casualties for the US & it's allies. The Iraqi troops died in
droves.

>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)

Ob-Trav:  According to my T4 book, there is a draft (pag 21).  It doth state:
"A character becomes subject to the draft if 1) If he failes to pass every
enlistment roll, 2) if his enlistment roll is ever a 12 exactly, 3) he
volunteers for the draft."

It goes on to say:
"Unlike enlistees, draftees are not eligible for commission as an officer
during their first term in service.  They become eligible during their
second and subsequent terms if they reenlist."

That is for *Imperial* military service.  Local (sub-sector, planetary,
local Grand-Dutchy) forces probably cover the gambit.  

MJD writes:
>As an aside - ever wonder why the Greenham Common bunch got so het up about
>a bunch of low-yield cruise missiles when there were 72 Zigglion Big Soviet
>Missiles pointing the other way? It had something to do with all the money
>the KGB paid to keep the protests going.....
    It  probably also had something to do with the fact the protests
against the Soviets would have *ZERO* effect on their policies.  Hell,
probably make 'em think they were doing something right by the squirming.






- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:53:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Convertible fuel tanks

In mail you write:

>>Traveller has not, to date, explored the possibility of liquid cargoes,
>>although I agree with you that they exist.  Also consider the possibility
>>of mixing dry bulk cargo (ground ores, in particular) with a working fluid
>>to make a slurry and handling it essentially as a liquid.  Once loaded,
>>most of the working fluid could be pumped off or vented to save weight.
>
> I wonder how great the risk of contaminating the fuel tanks and jeopardizing
> the next jump is?

Not terribly great. LH2 is *so* cold that everything but helium is
solid. So filters could handle a lot of the problem.

And you'd be careful about *what* liquids you put in the tank. 
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:57:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

In mail you write:

>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:37:26 GMT
>> From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>> 
>> Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will
>> not die (or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later. 
>
> I can't believe it would be that soon.  Take an 18-year-old kid who joins
> up in 1945.  Let him wait until he's 48 to have a child (late, but not all
> that uncommon).  That puts the kid's birth in 1975.  Said kid then lives
> the Biblical three score and ten (less than the projected mean lifespan,
> btw), and that puts his/her death in 2045.  Even with the child born when
> the veteran is only 28, the 70-year-old offspring dies in 2025.  Or look
> at it this way:  A child born to a WWII vet *in 1945* will be only 65 in
> 2010.
>
> In short:  Something's fishy with your statement, unless we give a very
> liberal interpretation to 'or later.'

You weren't aware of how the system works. *Spouses* get benefits for
the rest of their life. *Children* of veterans lose most benefits when
they turn 21.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:06:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

In mail you write:

> There was some discussion about this on trav-tech recently. By itself, the
> just-plain-hull of a ship is probably inadequate for shielding against a 
> major solar flare. However, this is clearly unacceptable for the canon of
> the Traveller universe - ships emerging from jump would have a small-but-
> significant chance of emerging into a flare, so all starship crews would 
> get killed about 1 jump out of a hundred. One has to either assume that
> (a) there's some layer of Magical Radiation Shield Material on the inside of 
> the hull, or (b) clever ship design (using fuel as shielding and/or 
> machinery) protects the crew and passenger spaces, especially if the ship
> is rolled/turned to put the thick bits between the crew and the star (eg
> the engines have enough bulk to absorb nearly all the radiation, so one
> just makes sure you emerge from jump with your tail pointed at the target
> star; design the ship so there's enough pointing margin that you can correct
> your course to reach the safety of a planet's magnetic field.)

Well, actually, I'd say that your pointing isn't that accurate when
leaving jump. But it doesn't really matter, because it doesn't take
*that* long to swing the ship to point the right way.

This *will* cause delays.

> (b) still leaves room for making life tough for players with the (very rare)
> big flare or when visiting a double star system, but overall, since 
> interstellar travel is common, ships must be protected from the sorts of 
> flares you get in most inhabited systems.

As I recall, LH2 isn't half bad at shielding from high energy protons,
which are the main rad hazard in flares.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:26:49 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: fun with players and other creatures

For real life examples of this, pick up just about any book on US Navy
SEALs in Viet-Nam.  The series by the Keith Brothers (writing as H. Jay
Riker) is one that mentions this practice.

The trick is to scatter this doctored rounds thoughout.  It makes the enemy
loath to use any ammo they find.

>Seems a certain government agency that shall remain nameless was able
>to insinuate someone into an operation smuggling arms and ammo to a
>"non-approved" geurilla group.
>
>As the story goes, their man swapped a few cases of ammo for "doctored"
>cases. These had a few "special" rounds scattered thru them. 
>
>The special rounds looked the same and weighed the same. But they
>contained an explosive charge rather than normal gun powder. Pull the
>trigger with one of these in the chamber and the gun *literally* "blows
>up in your face".
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:33:43 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Radiation Shielding

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 6:26 PM
Subject: re: Question on Radiation Shielding


>_Jovian_Chronicles_ has an interesting work around.
>
>"SCREENS


<Snipped>

>I use modifications of this hand-wave in all my SF gaming. It solves an
>embarassing problem while introducing all sorts of fun details. The
>magnetic field would need to be very powerful to compensate for lack of
>depth. Vessels and stations develop their own radiation belts as long as
>the field is on. EVA suits powered by a tether can also be shielded. Any of
>suits, vessels or stations can be sabotaged in a deliciously insidious
>manner. PCs are much more powerful without resorting to personal
>battleships.

This post caused me to think for a moment and then grab FFS 2. Once I
installed Electrostatic Armor on a ship design and someone asked me why I
would bother, since it's cost was more that the equivalant armor in
superdense or some such. Now, reading the discription, ESA provides about
half protection against kinetic energy type weapons KEAP, but full armor
value against "HE, HEAP and *plasma/fusion* attacks".

Could this be construed as radiation sheilds? Since it uses an EM burst for
effect it seems to react in much the way Gordon describes from Jovian
Chronicles. The only problem I see is the delay between when the penetration
of the field is detected and when the burst can be activated. Also, would
the duration of an ESA last long enough for the radiation to pass by?

What do you all think, is this a viable alternative?

As I see it there would now be a reason to install ESA. Then there may be a
roll to determine how much radiation gets through before they are activated,
with damage in ratio to that amount.

Obviously Black Globes are the ultimate answer, but in MTU they are very
very rare, Ancient artifacts (based from the LBB discription) and have only
been seen on a FEW 3I Fleet flagships, and kept, basically as a secret, at
that!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:30:19 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > > > << 'Hail to the Chef' ????? >>
> > > > "Chef" now has a new meaning for me, now... (Its a great Brticom...)
> > > Oh, lordy...I'd forgotten Gareth Blackstock!
> > 
> > You forgot the "stock" answer...  And you live in Arizona...  10pm
> > Saturdays on channel 8...
> 'live in Arizona' <> 'Live in Hell^h^h^h Phoenix...'

Hell, hell is Tucson, AZ...  Phoenix is only the gateway to hell...

> You wanna real flamewar? Forget near-C rocks, pirates, or WWII...try
> Phoenix vs Baja Arizona...;-)

No thank you...

> Anyway it's on Channel _6_, _Thursdays_ at 10.

Well, that is very nice...

> > > _I_ was thinking of the Vilani leader breaking into R&B...
> > Oh, their version of Bubba Clinton...
> Actually, Chef, from South Park was what I had in mind...

Nope, he is too cool to be Valani, & he is the Chef of Love...
 
> Bruce Johnson

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:40:18 -0400
From: "Alan R. Chambers" <alanross@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans for Type A and Type T

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> As noted by at least one other, the basic Type A Free Trader has (had)
> deckplans in DGPs Starship Operators Manual. Variants of the Type A include
> the one from Snapshot and the Alexandria (published by FASA in one of the
> Adventure Class Ships folios).
>   The Patrol "Cruiser", or Type T, only exists in FASAs above mentioned
> Adventure Class Ships, Volume 2. As with much of FASAs deckplan work, it ain't
> the greatest, but it will do.  The Type T is one of the ships on my list of
> deckplans to correct...
>
>  If enough people are curious/interested/willing to help I'll do a big list of
> printed deckplan sources for my website.  Anyone?
>
> GypsyComet

  Yes!
Alan "Simple answers by the simple minded" Chambers

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:23:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

In mail you write:

> Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Nuclear dampers can prevent chain reactions from starting within their
> field, but do not reduce ambiant radiation.  So while they will prevent
> the runaway chain reaction that culminates in a nuclear explosion,
> they would not effectively reduce the radiation front from one that goes
> off outside the field from affecting the area, nor reduce the effect of a
> solar flare. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
> Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
> permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
> Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
> theory changed since then?

No, it doesn't. The damper removes the *source* of the radiation
(contamination be radioactive isotopes) in the crater. With the solar
flare, the *source* is an AU or so away. What you are getting is the
equivalent of a poorly focused particle beam. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:31:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

In mail you write:

> Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:27:35 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>
>> Dampers can cause radioactive material to become non-radioactive
>> (though how they do this without causing said material to emit a
>> HUGE burst of radiation is a mystery.) However, they can't do
>> anything to block the actual alpha/beta/gamma/etc. rays that are
>> flying through the air... they destroy radioactive material, not
>> absorb radiation. So a damper could only reduce the effects of a
>> solar flare by damping the source of the radiation

> My understanding is they strengthen the weak (?) nuclear forces and
> prevent decay.  However, this would mean the material would only be
> non-radioactive while in the damper field.  Afterwards the would just
> resume decaying normally.

We've assumed that you can also weaken the weak force to increase decay
rates.

> You could, if you have someplace to put the energy and radiation
> released, turn them around to make a material non-radioactive by
> making it decay faster until it is cold.

For the "cleaning up the crater" scenario, there's no real problem. The
radiations are all short range. And the energy release will (at a
distance) be nothing but heat. So you increase the decay rate until the
crater is "simmering" at a dull red heat. Nothing nearby will be
appreciably damaged (not after the initial blast!), and the heat won't
last all that long.

At a guess, I'd say a day or two. Maybe a week. 

For missiles, you could suppress decay, and then when the explosive
charge goes off, no fission would occur. Alas, once out of damper
range, the warhead *would* explode (though with nowhere near the yeild).

Alternatively, you can increase the decay rate, and the fissionable
will melt or even explode from the ebnergy release. This will scatter
pieces of warhead all over the place. But it's probably the better
choice if you can do it at a decent range.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:45:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question aboutRadiation Shielding

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> I just recieved my copy of CT Striker a couple weeks ago (thank you,
>> Marc!), and they mention that you can use a Nuclear Dampener to
>> permanently remove lingering radiation effects from a nuclear blast crater.
>> Does this contradict what Douglas wrote above? Has Nuke Damper
>> theory changed since then?
>
> No.  The effect of a nuclear damper on a blast crater is to 'cook off'
> radioisotopes which are remaining in the crater.  This isn't eliminating
> _radiation_, it's eliminating a _source_ for radiation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> It seems to me that one of the problems isn't the solar radiation per se,
> but the secondary radiation caused when cosmic rays whack into
> thick metal hulls - someone even mentioned high-altitude aircraft
> showing noticeable residual radiation.
>
> Couldn't you use nuclear dampener technology to nullify or reduce this
> effect? Focus the dampener within the hull plates, cutting out the
> radiation source of cosmic rays kicking particles off your hull and
> through the interior of your ship.

Nope. The secondary radiation doesn't really involve the weak force.
The particles in the nucleus aren't decaying. Instead they are getting
*physically* knocked loose.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:25:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

In mail you write:

> Incidentally, a sufficiently large nuclear damper would turn off a
> star, which would (eventually) eliminate it as a radiation source,
> thus dealing with solar radiation....I don't think that's quite what
> you want, though. ;)

Actually, it'd result in *more* radiation than you want to deal with.
You see, if you stop the reactions, the core of the star will collapse.
You won't get an average star to supernova this way, but it'll be a
mess. Likewise, if you leave the damper on until the star finishes
collapsing, you'll get an even *worse* blast when you turn it off (and
all that overly compressed hydrogen gets to react).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:48:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)

In mail you write:

> Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> There is an ancient Greek stone on which the crime of murder is
> detailed.
> Essentially, IIRC, it outlines when it is legal for someone to kill
> another.  I think
> the only legal way was to avenge the murder of ones own family member.
> I think there are germanic/nordic/viking traditions along similar lines
> with
> blood-debts, etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I believe I've heard of such things. A Viking(?) tradition where you
> could be found guilty of murder, but the court would not execute
> you. They would simply make it legal for the family of the victim
> or their designated agent to kill you. In some cases, the court would
> make it legal for anyone to kill you - a form of Outlawing.

Yep. Most folks don't realize that originally "Outlaw" meant someone
who had been declared as being "outside the law" and as such anyone
encountering them was free to do anything they wish to them. Kill
them, enslave them, whatever. And the law would ignore it.

Outlawry was a *nasty* punishment. Also very sparing of resources. It
meant that even peasants or serfs could carry out the sentence and
possibly even get a reward for it. And they usually got to keep
anything the outlaw had had with him.

I wonder if the Imperium ever uses Outlawry? 

If they do, picture the scene. You spot an outlaw, shoot him, and when
the police check and find that he is indeed an outlaw, they give you
directions to the Ministry where you can collect the bounty. And they
also give you a ticket for disturbing the peace. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:12:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piloting

In mail you write:

>> I GM'd a group who (during the 5FW in the Spinward  Marches)  had
>> to sneak a weapons cache onto a neutral planet for future use  by
>> covert special forces.  On the way to pick up the freighter  they
>> would use, their beat-up old Gazelle  was  attacked  by  raiders.
>> The only gunner onboard kept his turret dutifully  aimed  at  the
>> enemy while blazing away with all  guns.  As  the  raider  passed
>> behind and below them the gunner inadvertantly pumped shot  after
>> shot into their  own  engineering  section  (nearly  killing  the
>> engineering crew)!  Only then did they think to  inventory  their
>> ship's software and found only generic gunnery programs  (ie.  no
>> safety features).
>
> Lets see, for as long as there have been turrets on ships & aircraft, there
> have been mechanical (built-in) wedges that protect the ship or aircraft
> from its own guns...

Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun *didn't*
have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #772
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 773



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting
Re: Piloting
Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Synchronized Machineguns (Was: Piloting)
Re: Piloting
Hail to the Chef
Piloting - an explanation
Re: Vilani Vice
Re: first post/culture question
Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #772
Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences
Re: Synchronized Machineguns (Was: Piloting)
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Piloting
FF&S Spreadsheet v3.0 isnow available
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Viva Baja Arizona
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Vilani leaders 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:09:31 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Piloting

Legate Legion wrote:
> I myself would have had the terrorists, use the weapons the party
> just gave them, to kill off the party...

Basically, I did!  Since the weapons were all created up and  the
'transfer' took place near the PC's ship (which  was  armed)  the
terrorists behaved themselves initially.  Once safely  away  they
sent the PCs a 'care package'  ...  a  booby-trapped  bomb.  This
trap was spotted right away and the PCs took it into  their  hold
and successfully defused it.  (I still don't understand why  they
didn't defuse it _outside_ the ship, just in  case.)  After  that
the PCs went after the terrorists, who were now fully armed  with
the weapons supplied to them.



> > > > This is when the pilot failed his roll ... during take-off
> > <snip>
> > > So far, not good... I do wonder if the GM had it in for the
> > > players...
> > No, that was just bad dice rolls.
>
> You should not have to make rolls for what is a normal thing...
>
> Skill Level Normal Action (Pilot/Ships Boat Skill Here)
> 0 Nothing
> 1 Takeoffs & Landings from a Port & General Manuevering in an
>   Atmosphere
> 2 Orbital insertion & Deorbit Burn
> 3 Fuel Skimmin
> 4 Asteroidial Takeoffs & Landings
> 5+ You are a Master, use only in truly unusual times...

I haven't seen this chart before,  it  looks  useful.  Are  there
others?  Actually, the NPC who attempted to skim  the  gas  giant
had Ship's Boat 2 ... which fits the chart.



Regards PLST
"Its like deja vu, all over again."

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:41:45 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

At 01:09 PM 8/25/98 +0100, you wrote:
>> Skill Level Normal Action (Pilot/Ships Boat Skill Here)
>> 0 Nothing
>> 1 Takeoffs & Landings from a Port & General Manuevering in an
>>   Atmosphere
>> 2 Orbital insertion & Deorbit Burn
>> 3 Fuel Skimmin
>> 4 Asteroidial Takeoffs & Landings
>> 5+ You are a Master, use only in truly unusual times...
>
>I haven't seen this chart before,  it  looks  useful.  Are  there
>others?  Actually, the NPC who attempted to skim  the  gas  giant
>had Ship's Boat 2 ... which fits the chart.

"Starport/Planetfall" is overflowing with charts of this sort - Andrew even
admitted to me that he'd gotten a bit carried away with tables when writing
the supplement - personally though, I think he did a great job and struck a
good balance.

Paul Sanders
Nee Clans MacAlasdair, Comyn, and O'Delany

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:51:32 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Piloting

>Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun *didn't*
>have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
>equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!


Yeah, I heard the same. Apparently the mechanical device to allow the German
pilots to fire the machine gun through the propellers of their aircraft
wasn't invented until some unlucky chap(s) blew the propeller to sawdust...
I wonder how they tested the mounting in the first place?

Cheers,
 Anson.

Don't believe a word your Grandfather says, he's been classified
grade A psychotic. You can see it from the hole in his head, a saner
man would have used a bigger gun.

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ !t4 !tg tt+ to ru ge+ !3i c- jt+ au ls+ pi+ ta++ he++

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:43:52 +0200
From: Morten Lund <mlund@imv.aau.dk>
Subject: Re: Right of Asassination (was re: Imperial Law...)

>In mail you write:
>
>> Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> There is an ancient Greek stone on which the crime of murder is
>> detailed.
>> Essentially, IIRC, it outlines when it is legal for someone to kill
>> another.  I think
>> the only legal way was to avenge the murder of ones own family member.
>> I think there are germanic/nordic/viking traditions along similar lines
>> with
>> blood-debts, etc.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> I believe I've heard of such things. A Viking(?) tradition where you
>> could be found guilty of murder, but the court would not execute
>> you. They would simply make it legal for the family of the victim
>> or their designated agent to kill you. In some cases, the court would
>> make it legal for anyone to kill you - a form of Outlawing.
>
>Yep. Most folks don't realize that originally "Outlaw" meant someone
>who had been declared as being "outside the law" and as such anyone
>encountering them was free to do anything they wish to them. Kill
>them, enslave them, whatever. And the law would ignore it.

uhh.. It is a very old clause from "Danske Lov" (transl: Danish Law). it
could happen, but it would have to be put to a vote by the local lords at a
yearly (or bi-yearly??) "Tinge" (sort of a very big market, where legal
affairs were also handled) -the effects are as described, but before the
vote, it would be subject to vengeance to kill or otherwise harm the
miscreant.

They had something similar in all the nordic countries at the time.

Danske Lov is still legal, AFAIK

/morten

Ideas have consequences
- -bajoran proverb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:53:14 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

Andrew thinks

"Now lets see, aboard ship the Shugilii takes on the role of a sort of chaplain or 
perhaps morale officer, only with their duties as cook. Now lets think, is their a 
science fiction "prototype" for this sort of character?"

Andrew thinks some more

"Arghhh, no, it can not be"

Andrew runs screaming.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:04:57 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Synchronized Machineguns (Was: Piloting)

>>Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun 
*didn't*
>>have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
>>equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!
>
>
>Yeah, I heard the same. Apparently the mechanical device to allow the 
>German pilots to fire the machine gun through the propellers of their 
>aircraft wasn't invented until some unlucky chap(s) blew the 
>propeller to sawdust... I wonder how they tested the mounting in the 
>first place?
>
>Cheers,
> Anson.

I believe the idea of firing a machinegun through propellers came from 
the French, initially.  The inventor (Raymond Salnier) thought about it 
while looking at fan...  He borrowed a machinegun from the military, but 
because of malfunctions, etc., the military lost interest following 
outbreak of the war.  Roland Garros had him put steel deflectors on his 
prop.  He shot down 5 German aircraft in a short time...two weeks or so, 
and then was himself shot down.  His aircraft fell into enemy hands and 
his technology was transferred to the German airforce...and Anthony 
Fokker.  Fokker improved the design and developed the 
syncronization...leading to the "Fokker Scourge" when Fokkers with twin 
Spandau machineguns could shoot anything with impunity.  The allies 
developed matching technology and balanced the "playing field" again.

ObTrav:  What is the latest "leading edge" technology that will turn the 
tide of battle in the Imperium?  We know about the Terrans and their 
development of higher jump capability, but what is currently being 
developed to change the face of Interstellar Wars?

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:18:21 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Piloting

>You should not have to make rolls for what is a normal thing...
>
>Skill Level     Normal Action (Pilot/Ships Boat Skill Here)
>0               Nothing
>1               Takeoffs & Landings from a Port & General Manuevering in
>an Atmosphere
>2               Orbital insertion & Deorbit Burn
>3               Fuel Skimmin
>4               Asteroidial Takeoffs & Landings
>5+              You are a Master, use only in truly unusual times...

Or rather there should be a task system that makes this for you ie at each
skill level there should be a specific task level that is impossible to
fail.
CORPS handles such things fairly well but then argues against its own rules
on this point regarding really high skill levels and shots to the head.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:07:34 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Hail to the Chef

Perhaps the Vilani are French.

'Chef De Batalion' - Battalion commander
'Chef De Dragon' - A Dragoon officer
'Chef d'escadron' Cavalry squadron commander
'Mareschal des logis-chef' - really important quartermaster/logistics
officer.

Look it up. It's all there....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:11:39 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Piloting - an explanation

Traveller 4: a disasterous failure occurs whenever you roll 2 or more
sixes.

That means (for me) anytime I pick up more than one die. What a talent that
is.... pity, it doesn't work if I really need to roll 5 sixes at once.....

As to the asteroid - we were in a dense ring system, and the one I hit was
actually about the size of a housebrick. But travelling rather quickly. 

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:40:48 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice

For get the stats on Vilani Crocket and Tubs I want the stats on the LSP's
classic air raft with old poly carbon winshields and ferris metal hall....
;)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Vilani Vice


>>What do the Vilani do for illicit fun?
>Judging by the M0 novel, they dye their hair interesting colours, and talk
>with their girlfriends on company time. Really outrageous stuff.
>
>>Vilani Vice
>Why do I get images of sun, sand, fast cars and cool clothes?
>Anyone want to work out stats for a Vilani Crocket and Tubs? Or is that
>just too scary...
>
>Jo
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:56:48 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: first post/culture question

Well it is stated in the Regency source books that all the Main world and
system names on Imperium star charts where in galanglic and Imperial named.
so what you are saying is quite possible.  so there would more then likely
local names for may systems and different names in different languages.
Terra is most likely still called Earth by the locals and Luna would still
be "The Moon" as if it was the only one. Also I don't think Deneb was
settled during the Ziru Sirka. so most likely just the star was named then
on charts from worlds where it was viewable with telescopes and the like
similarly to what we did with the centuries systems on earth.




- -----Original Message-----
From: Sean Nelson <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 2:56 PM
Subject: first post/culture question


>This is my first communication with the TML.
>
>Hello
>
>Some posts on the weekend regarding Solomani/Vilani cultures touched on
>something I've been wondering about.  Namely how do we explain so many
>Solomani sounding names for systems so far from Terra?
>
>I suppose Regina could have been called something else in the First
>Imperium (I don't think Regina is a Vilani word).  Perhaps its name was
>changed during Rule of Man or the foundation of the 3I?
>
>If a lot of system names are relatively new (ie last 1100 years), would
>they only be used by the "Imperial class."
>
>A Traveller and Imperial Nobleman may call a planet X, but if a minor
>race has been there for 5,000 years I can't see them referring to their
>home by another name (assuming you view planet's inhabitants keeping
>their cultures and not assimilating into a 3I melting pot).
>
>This may suggest that most planets (at least ones with native
>inhabitants dating back to pre-3I) may have two names, a native one and
>an Imperial one.
>
>Of course I realize that twenty years or so ago when  Mr. Miller et al
>created the Regina subsector they did not imagine having to defend
>system names to an international cyber-community two decades later.
>Nevertheless I suppose that's the fun of this list.
>
>Looking forward to some opinions,
>
>-Sean
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:44:52 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #772

>In the August 17th edition of Electronic Design on page 26, there is a
>news
>column stating that a research team led by Deborah D.L. Chung PhD of the
>University of Buffalo has developed room temperature superconductors
>using Carbon Composites.

It's a weird result that I'm not inclined to believe. The original 
press release claimed something about "negative resistance", which
makes me thing they have just failed to temperature-control their
apparatus and discovered the thermocouple.

Bruce "science skeptic" Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

> ObTrav:  What is the latest "leading edge" technology that will turn the 
> tide of battle in the Imperium?  We know about the Terrans and their 
> development of higher jump capability, but what is currently being 
> developed to change the face of Interstellar Wars?

This made me think of the discussion we had recently regarding why the
Imperium is so slow to develop new technologies. Mostly people brought up
the issue that the Vilani are so culturally slow-moving people. But it
occurs to me that all the sub-races within imperial borders are not
necessarily the same way.

What happens when some world in the Imperium takes the current technology
and has a real knack for risk-taking research and groundbreaking
innovation? They start improving on the current designs faster than anyone
else. Their culture values change and newness, so they integrate the new
developments into their society very quickly, where they are thoroughly
tested, refined, improved, and redeveloped into even better systems.

Does the Imperium value this world, or fear it? What happens to the
markets for goods from other worlds when this world begins exporting
quality, reliable, high-tech goods to its neighbors? Does the Imperium
have an interest in maintaining a "balance of trade" between worlds?

What if some world in the Imperium managed to rise naturally to tech level
G, or higher? What kind of power would such a world have? 

Ben

- --
Brannon (Ben) Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:54:28 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Synchronized Machineguns (Was: Piloting)

The count wrote:
> ObTrav: What is the latest "leading edge" technology that will
> turn the tide of battle in the Imperium? We know about the
> Terrans and their development of higher jump capability, but
> what is currently being developed to change the face of
> Interstellar Wars?

Er ... starship turret wedges?

(Sorry ... joke ... couldn't resist.)

Regards PLST
"Its like deja vu, all over again."

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:07:38 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

>
>As I recall, LH2 isn't half bad at shielding from high energy protons,
>which are the main rad hazard in flares.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

What about neutrons, you get a lot of those too and they're much harder to
stop (I'd say any ship with a decent PP output can stop most charged
particle radiation easily)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:02:53 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Piloting

> >You should not have to make rolls for what is a normal thing...
> >
> >Skill Level     Normal Action (Pilot/Ships Boat Skill Here)
> >0               Nothing
> >1               Takeoffs & Landings from a Port & General Manuevering in
> >an Atmosphere
> >2               Orbital insertion & Deorbit Burn
> >3               Fuel Skimmin
> >4               Asteroidial Takeoffs & Landings
> >5+              You are a Master, use only in truly unusual times...
> Or rather there should be a task system that makes this for you ie at
each
> skill level there should be a specific task level that is impossible to
> fail.

This was created for use with CT & to cut down on dice rolling...  I found
that my group spent half the time Roll-Playing, when we could use that time
to Role-Playing...

> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:07:38 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: FF&S Spreadsheet v3.0 isnow available

The newest version of my FF&S spreadsheet is now available. Version 3.0 has
the following fixes/enhancements:

* Cleaned up some formatting on the USP page
* Fixed the Labs and Workshops per the eratta...their cost/power were
swapped.
* Added low-tech fusion engies to missile design. At TL 8, Exp Fusion is
used. At TL 9, Fusion is used. And at TL 10, HEPlaR is used.

The spreadsheet can be found, as usual, at my traveller website:

http://www.ames.net/igor/traveller/

It is located in the filelist area, or in the Operations section of the site
itself.

Let me know if there are comments/complaints/opinions...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

Anders Backman writes:
> 
> What about neutrons, you get a lot of those too and they're much harder to
> stop (I'd say any ship with a decent PP output can stop most charged
> particle radiation easily)

I don't recall neutrons being that big a factor in solar radiation, but in any
case hydrogen is an excellent shielding material against neutrons -- it strips
them of about half their kinetic energy per collision, and has a respectable
chance of absorbing them (and forming deuterium) which gets rid of the neutron
entirely.  It actually isn't very good at stopping ionizing radiation, its main
advantage there is that any induced secondary radiation tends to be low energy
(and thus easy to shield against), and charged particles have extremely poor
penetration to begin with.

Of course, this neglects the fact that _empty_ fuel tanks don't shield against
radiation at all.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

Leonard Erickson writes:
> Actually, it'd result in *more* radiation than you want to deal with.
> You see, if you stop the reactions, the core of the star will collapse.
> You won't get an average star to supernova this way, but it'll be a
> mess. Likewise, if you leave the damper on until the star finishes
> collapsing, you'll get an even *worse* blast when you turn it off (and
> all that overly compressed hydrogen gets to react).

Hm...actually, I was aware of that (and in any case, nothing will happen very
fast).  I was joking.  However, it seems that this _does_ make for a nice
explanation of the Darrian star trigger ;).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:11:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

- ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

> >   There appears to be a tendency in games of Traveller I have
> > played in for a player to express that their character should
> > pilot because they are the best.  Only to later find that they
> > have emergency crash landed the starship on some desolate world.
> > This happened twice in succession by the same character.
> 
> Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about to 
> ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...

Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
in _years_! <g>

Terry
AKA Leonardo Chang
Floating in the water waiting for the ship to sink.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:46:58 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Viva Baja Arizona

"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> 'live in Arizona' <> 'Live in Hell^h^h^h Phoenix...'
>
>Hell, hell is Tucson, AZ...  Phoenix is only the gateway to hell...
>
>> You wanna real flamewar? Forget near-C rocks, pirates, or WWII...try
>> Phoenix vs Baja Arizona...;-)

Hmmm... seems to me that El Gigante del Norte (Phoenix) has been averaging
about 10 degrees warmer than Tucson lately.  Are you implying Hell is a
cold and icy place?

Ob. Trav. ->  The Rebellion era certainly implies that there are distinct
cultural divisions in the Imperium beyond the planetary and race level.
How would Imperial Regionalism affect the Imperial Navy in staffing its
fleets and Marine units.  The Rebellion sourcebook sort of implies regional
staffing of such units made it easier for Dulinor to gain control of the
Ilelish fleet, but this same factor does not seem to have prevented Lucan
from drawing in most of the rest of the Imperial forces.

Steve Charlton
Tucson?  Yeah, its a dry heat....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:47:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> > >   There appears to be a tendency in games of Traveller I have
> > > played in for a player to express that their character should
> > > pilot because they are the best.  Only to later find that they
> > > have emergency crash landed the starship on some desolate world.
> > > This happened twice in succession by the same character.
> > 
> > Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about to 
> > ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...
> 
> Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
> in _years_! <g>

Ah, but Terry, 'ditch' means an attempt at a *controlled* crash.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:21 -0400
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> 
[re: Nuclear dampers cleaning up radioactive sites]
> 	Thus, in order to remove the lingering radiation effects from a blast
> site, it is either speeding up the reactions (causing the radioactive items
> in the area to hurry up and finish emitting) or somehow stabilizing them so
> they don't emit. But it won't do anything to radiation that's already
> "passing through."

I've always seen it as speeding up the reactions; stablization would imply
an effect lingering after you turn the damper off, which doesn't make
sense to me.  I would imagine that combat engineers *hate* nuke decon
jobs...while you're 'cooking off' the radioactive elements in the crater,
the radiation environment is going to be absolutely hellish.  Nothing that
can't be dealt with using proper procedures, of course, but still not the
sort of thing that makes for a comfortable feeling, given the consequences
of screwing anything up.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:52:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders 

> Andrew thinks
> 
> "Now lets see, aboard ship the Shugilii takes on the role of a sort of chaplain or 
> perhaps morale officer, only with their duties as cook. Now lets think, is their a 
> science fiction "prototype" for this sort of character?"
> 
> Andrew thinks some more
> 
> "Arghhh, no, it can not be"
> 
> Andrew runs screaming.

I don't get the reference.

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #773
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 26 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 774



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/23/98)
Re: Ponii's ( as seen on the IISS Comm. Logo)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Diplomacy
Re: Vilani leaders 
Re: Diplomacy
Jinx
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Re: military service
Re: Viva Baja Arizona
Rob's M0 Ship Design Spreadsheet and Rob's Resource Generator
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: military service
Re: Military Benefits
Re: military service
Failed Utopias (longish)
Re: Expanding starship software
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Favor requested
Rite of Assassination
Re: Vilani leaders
Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:27:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (8/23/98)

        www.titangames.com

>Game Designer's Workshop:
>    (MegaTraveller)
>        Referee's Manual (212) [$6.5, G], [$5.5, Fa]
>        Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$7, Fa]
>        Rebellion Sourcebook (214) [$8, F]
>        Referee's Companion (215) [$7, G]
>        Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (218) [$9, F]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:29:04 EDT
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ponii's ( as seen on the IISS Comm. Logo)

Help!

Does anyone remember where the info on Ponii's (used in the IISS Communication
section logo)  is found? Also has anyone got any additional background info on
the creatures - eg. homeworld, etc.

Cheers,

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:15:42 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

>
>Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:51:32 +1200
>From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Piloting
>
>>Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun *didn't*
>>have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
>>equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!
>
>
>Yeah, I heard the same. Apparently the mechanical device to allow the
German
>pilots to fire the machine gun through the propellers of their aircraft
>wasn't invented until some unlucky chap(s) blew the propeller to sawdust...
>I wonder how they tested the mounting in the first place?
>
>Cheers,
> Anson.
>
IIRC I saw a program on the discovery channel which was on the development
of aircraft. They showed how this system was tested - the aircraft just has
the engine running (either below take-off speed or with chocks in position).
The machine gun is then fired and any interrupting gear can be safely tested
(unless you happen  be downrange and get hit by a falling bullet.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:38:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Diplomacy

...
>    It  probably also had something to do with the fact the protests
>against the Soviets would have *ZERO* effect on their policies.  Hell,
>probably make 'em think they were doing something right by the squirming.

  In the event, all we had to do to make them play dead was ask them nicely
(although bankrupting an already backward and nearly impoverished economy
didn't hurt) :>

  In addition to being exceedingly uncooperative when not treated respectfully
(OTOH they did cough up Austria) they never really positively modified their
behaviour when criticized, but tended to react negatively instead.

  Given some of the ways that Trav is played (i.e. TCS, PE) then the players
may run into various states (interstellar or not) that may be inordinately
touchy or downright irrational about being taken seriously (at various times
in the last two centuries most significant states in the modern system have
fit that description). Whether as Admirals or merchants, PC's can be made to
regret gratuitously insensitive comments or gestures. Of course, if they
didn't behave stupidly they wouldn't be nearly as much fun, now would they?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:58:39 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders 

From:           	"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Date sent:      	Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:52:59 -0400

> > Andrew thinks

> > "Now lets see, aboard ship the Shugilii takes on the role of a sort of chaplain or 
> > perhaps morale officer, only with their duties as cook. Now lets think, is their a 
> > science fiction "prototype" for this sort of character?"

> > Andrew thinks some more

> > "Arghhh, no, it can not be"

> > Andrew runs screaming.

> I don't get the reference.

Nelix from ST: Voyager

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:03:14 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy

Date sent:      	Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:38:55 -0700
From:           	shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>   Given some of the ways that Trav is played (i.e. TCS, PE) then the players
> may run into various states (interstellar or not) that may be inordinately
> touchy or downright irrational about being taken seriously (at various times
> in the last two centuries most significant states in the modern system have
> fit that description).

Well this shows in sharp relief the authors of FFS2's oversight in omitting 
baked deserts as a weapon system :*>

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:55:10 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Jinx

I just looked up the mechanics for the GURPS Jinx disadbvantage.

Basically the character is bad luck for everyone around him - they all get
penalties depending on the level of the Jinx (for an extreme example,
2000AD ran a marvellous one-off Strontium Dog story. Johnny Alpha was given
a bonus to escort a non-dangerous 'captive' off planet. Sorry Bob they
called him - he was to be deported as a nuisance, not a criminal. For
several episodes Johnny struggled manfully with Bob's Jinx - his car died,
so they walked. A section of the road gave way & they fell into a sewer,
where a flash flood swept them away,,, you get the idea....

In the end johnny admitted defeat and brought Sorry Bob back to the police
station....

Seems like MY jinx works the other way round. My disasters affect only me.
They're caused by picking up the dice. If only I could avoid doing
that.....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:30:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

I think most of the shielding is taken care of by the hull.  The Medical
Digest column on Nuclear Radiation in DG's The Traveller's Digest #15 (pp.
38-44) has a section on shielding.  In it a 1.4 cm thickness of superdense
and a 0.7 cm thickness of bonded superdense are listed as being equivalent
to 2 cm of lead. 

Using hulls in the vicinity of 1 cm thick, and maybe placing the LHy tanks
between the habitable portions and the outside (or simply turning the ship
so that they are between the crew and the radiation source) should be
sufficient. 

- -John jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:55:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

> ObTrav: What is the latest "leading edge" technology that will
> turn the tide of battle in the Imperium? We know about the
> Terrans and their development of higher jump capability, but
> what is currently being developed to change the face of
> Interstellar Wars?

Black Globes are a good example - as people figure out their uses
(particularly their advantages for stealth and for quick retreats) warfare
will become even more dominated by hit-and-run, and fixed installations
nearly undefendable. (There was some MT/TNE example of this kind of thinking
involving a plan to preposition high-jump capability raider cruisers with
black globes, a whonking great spinal mount, and no other weapons - I can't
remember the name.)

Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at least
somewhat alter the balance of power...

(Tactical FTL comm, I mean - using a small ship with a telepath to relay
targeting info to a large ship to overcome lightspeed lag and hit an
evading target at long range.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:54:56 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: military service

At 11:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
>seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)

	What about the People's Republic of Berkely--"eight square miles,
surrounded by reality."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:07:26 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Viva Baja Arizona

> From: scharlto@ifsna.com
> >> 'live in Arizona' <> 'Live in Hell^h^h^h Phoenix...'
> >Hell, hell is Tucson, AZ...  Phoenix is only the gateway to hell...
> >> You wanna real flamewar? Forget near-C rocks, pirates, or WWII...try
> >> Phoenix vs Baja Arizona...;-)
> Hmmm... seems to me that El Gigante del Norte (Phoenix) has been
averaging
> about 10 degrees warmer than Tucson lately.  Are you implying Hell is a
> cold and icy place?

To some people it is...

> Ob. Trav. ->  The Rebellion era certainly implies that there are distinct
> cultural divisions in the Imperium beyond the planetary and race level.
> How would Imperial Regionalism affect the Imperial Navy in staffing its
> fleets and Marine units.  The Rebellion sourcebook sort of implies
regional
> staffing of such units made it easier for Dulinor to gain control of the
> Ilelish fleet, but this same factor does not seem to have prevented Lucan
> from drawing in most of the rest of the Imperial forces.

I would say that like here in Arizona, there are regional divisions... 
Like people from Phoenix & Tucson may fight, but don't let someone from
outsiz Arizona step in...  I would have to say it would be the same thing
in the 3I...  A cruiser may have mostly people from the same place crewing
it...  This makes for greater crew integrity...  

> Steve Charlton
> Tucson?  Yeah, its a dry heat....

Oh, you want to test Arizona?

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1998 20:29 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Rob's M0 Ship Design Spreadsheet and Rob's Resource Generator

Howdy all,

I am happy to announce two scripts that are now unleashed for
public scrutiny:

metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Online/RSDS.html
metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Online/T4ResourceGen.html

RSDS abbreviates several steps from the QSDS and provides a 
quick way to whip up bare-bones TL-12 starships.  Supports
up to 50,000 ton ship designs (I need that for my ongoing
traffic studies).

T4ResourceGen generates:
	1. random characters (10 at a time)
	2. random adventure hooks (5 at a time)
	3. random ship's lockers (3 at a time)

I will be fine-tuning these scripts in the future, so please
send me lists and suggestions.  I really appreciate it.

Rob

P.S. These scripts should be on my page by this evening.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:38:42 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

Keven Pittsinger wrote:

>> 'An army marches on its stomach'; 'the way to a man's heart is through his
>> stomach'.  

>The way to a man's heart is straight through the ribcage with a battleax.

Whew.  Thanks for the reminder I'm still on the TML <G>.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:38:28 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: military service

David Golden wrote:

>At 11:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>>    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
>>seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)

> What about the People's Republic of Berkely--"eight square miles,
>surrounded by reality."

Folks, if the list is choosing to avoid saying and hearing unflattering things
about the USA and various forms of capitalist economies, it seems to me the
the minimally adult thing to do is not then turn around and make digs about
_other_ political and economic systems.  

Goading a minority of listmembers when you're secure in the knowledge that the
bulk of the list will rally to drown them out and chuckle fraternally at your
own bon mots is childish.  It's unworthy of members of the virtual Moot ;)

(Yes, the "Kenji Schwarz" who brought you the Sayat and their friends &
various battery-powered gadgets is the same person as us^h^h me.  In
anticipation of severe corruption this summer, there were certain operating
system upgrades, hence the revised appellation.  I still have all the parts of
my personality that matter.  Everything is... just fine.  You'll see.)

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:49:33 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Military Benefits


>In mail you write:
>
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:37:26 GMT
>>> From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>>>
>>> Actually, I recall reading that the last dependent of a WW2 veteran will
>>> not die (or is not expected to die) till around 2010 or later.
>>
>> I can't believe it would be that soon.
>>
>> In short:  Something's fishy with your statement, unless we give a very
>> liberal interpretation to 'or later.'
>
>You weren't aware of how the system works. *Spouses* get benefits for
>the rest of their life. *Children* of veterans lose most benefits when
>they turn 21.
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
Actually Leonard you are partially correct on the kids (see my previous
post).  You're perfectly correct on the spouse as long as she doesn't
re-marry.  If she does and later winds up single again she can re-apply for
benefits.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:28:55 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: military service

At 08:38 PM 8/25/98 EDT, you wrote:
>David Golden wrote:
>
>>At 11:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>>>    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
>>>seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)
>
>> What about the People's Republic of Berkely--"eight square miles,
>>surrounded by reality."
>
>Folks, if the list is choosing to avoid saying and hearing unflattering
things
>about the USA and various forms of capitalist economies, it seems to me the
>the minimally adult thing to do is not then turn around and make digs about
>_other_ political and economic systems.  

	Sorry, this wasn't intended as a goad or a continuation of the flame
war--something I very carefully sat out of, having strongly-held opinions
and a sometimes acerbic way of attempting humor that doesn't always come
across as humorous.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:40:41 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Failed Utopias (longish)

Looking over all the (generally off-topic) politico-military posts over
the past few days, an on-topic thought occurred to me:

Historically, on this planet, most colonies/settlements have been
established for economic or military reasons.  Some, however (Deseret,
for instance), were intended as Utopias, a place where those who had the
same goals and ideals could build a more perfect society, unhampered by
those who disagreed.  It stands to reason that at least some planets
were settled for similar reasons during the Rule of Man (I would think
that most Vilani would be resistant to any Utopian movement).  Others
may have been settled during the Third Imperium.

Given this premise, there are any number of curveballs a referee can
deliver to players in a recontact situation (especially Milieu 0 or
TNE):

  1.  Take any socio-politico-economic theory, exaggerate an aspect of
it, and transplant it to [fill-in-the-blank] world.  Give the players
the original basis of the colony [for instance, the main world of
[f-i-t-b] is named Rand, after the noted author/philosopher of Terra's
mid-20th century (old style).]  Ensure that the players have access to
the inspirational work(s) in question (_Atlas Shrugged_ for Rand).  Let
them figure out what kind of society might evolve over x-hundred years,
given that inspiration.

  2.  Once they've had a chance to research and brainstorm, allow them
to make contact (planetfall or commo).  They might find:

      a.  The society has made a going concern of its colony, while
remaining true to the Utopian roots (_highly_ unlikely, since Utopian
movements tend to have a prescriptive, rather than descriptive, view of
human behavior ["people should", rather than "pepole do"]);

      b.  The society has moved entirely away from its roots, but still
pays lip-service to the original founders/thinkers (current example: 
just how many folks in here believe that either Marx or Jefferson would
recognize the societies built in their names?)

      c.  The society has split into various factions, each claiming to
be the "True" followers of the ideal that inspired the colony.

      d.  Following whatever tangent, the descendants of the original
colonists have decided that the original founding philosophy was in
error, and have gone off on their own path.

      e.  [any other devious, yet plausible, outcome]

A referee should be able to use this to generate all sorts of
interesting societies (read:  deeply unpleasant situations) to challenge
both the resourcefulness and the preconceptions of the players.


- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:54:08 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software

>Has anyone given any thought to what exactly the software on ships does?

IMTU, most "computers" are sealed units dedicated to a specific function,
like a battlefield computer or starship jump computer. This is why
characters don't have to make computer rolls to do things like fire a gun
or fly their ship. All electronic devices past TL 10 are able to operate
themselves without external computer control, which is why you don't need
special pilot, navigation, gunnery, engineering, cargo, life-support,
medical, financial, and so on ad infinitum computer software. This also
explains why the first computer hit doesn't disable your ship.

There are general-purpose computers and specialized software IMTU, but they
change the standard operation of existing subsystems or provide new
functionality. This gives the game interesting new features without having
to backfit computer rules in existing designs, and rationalizes the lack of
computer rules in existing design and combat rules.

>Or what should be available?  What I have is very much specific to my
>campaign, but it seems that this is an area that could use some attention.

I agree. The lack of rules for software is a shortcoming in much of the
recent Traveller material. Two of the players in my campaign are
professional programmers and one of the main things their characters do
during those long weeks in jump is develop new computer programs.

I have been using some ad-hoc computer rules to handle this. One of these
days I'll quantify the rulings and post them.

I agree with the proposed descriptions of standard software, with one
exception.

>ANTI-HIJACK
>Anti-Hijack is used to augment shipboard security against possible hostile
>takeover.

Ah yes, the infamous anti-hijack program, in my experience the most abused
software in the game. I remember back in high school arguing with a GM that
had the anti-hijack program able to virtually take over the entire ship.
This was long before Virus.

>In its basic form it provides:
>- - Access control to critical portions of the ship.  A basic installation
>would consist of a keypad on critical areas requiring a PIN for access.
>More advanced installations could consist of a card reader, hand- or
>finger- print scanner, retina scanner, DNA scanner, voice or ultimately
>optical recognition.

Remember that Anti-Hijack is a computer program. Software. It does not
allow the computer to grow new hardware that is not already installed. A
computer must already be able to identify authorized users in order to
function, and things like control consoles, airlocks, and weapon lockers
had better already have security hardware in place to prevent unauthorized
use or vandalism. IMHO, things like this are standard construction and not
part of a separate computer program.

>- - Pattern matching - comparing crew/passenger actions against hijack
>profiles.

I agree, depending on what is meant by "hijack profiles". Being able to do
things like identify and target hijackers among other passengers is a "Hard
AI" problem. Trained professionals, like police officers and secret service
agents, make mistakes in doing this, and a computer program able to predict
future behavior from casual observation would revolutionize civilization.

>In its more advanced forms, the following upgrades are available:
>- - Addition of lethal and non-lethal defense systems to the interior of the
>ship.
>- - Automated release of lethal and non-lethal defensive measures when
>specific threshholds are exceeded.

Let me get this straight; you are installing weapons specifically designed
to *kill the ship's occupants*? Wow, hijackers must love this one... You
don a filter suit, do something to trigger the anti-hijack program, and the
ship obligingly gasses the entire crew. Cute. Or are there separate defense
and control systems for different areas of the ship? Since by necessity
data paths for these systems must be spread throughout the ship, you just
need to hack into communications to kill the captain, gas engineering, and
hold passengers for ransom. You might even be able to do it remotely...
Virus for real!

I imagine this is a hit with travel agencies too. "Yes, for passenger
safety and convenience, Oberlindes Lines ships are rigged to kill you as
soon as anything goes wrong!" Hey, maybe the showers could dispense poison
gas (*Smack* oww...).

Seriously, most legal systems ban lethal traps on the principle that life
is more important than property. And "automated defensive measures" are
already banned by the Shudusham Concord and illegal in the Third Imperium.

IMTU, such defense systems are found only in bad holovids.

>- - Addition of sophisticated data, optical and audio sensors around the
>interior of the ship to increase the level of data acquired by the
>software.
>- - Remote, mobile units to increase the detection/response level.

Interesting idea but, again, not software.

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but with players who are computer
professionals this kind of stuff came up early in my campaign. The way I
handle computer programs is with a list of "features", which are available
depending on the tech level, level of automation, and subsystems (like
MFDs, jump drives, weapon batteries, et al) connected to the computer. I do
have anti-hijack programs in my campaign. Features I have defined already
for this program are:

TL 8: Logs the time and user of all changes made to connected subsystems.
It will override a forbidden command, optionally explaining the reason or
confirming the command to mislead the user. "Forbidden" commands can be
pre-programmed or changed by authorized users, but typically include things
like overloading the power plant, colliding with other objects, leaving a
flight path during takeoff or landing, firing weapons or opening hatches in
Jump, jumping to a Red Zoned system, firing at targets identified as
"friendly", rapidly changing internal gravity, shutting off life support,
or studying the effects of high explosives on internal ship structures.
Characters in command positions may un-forbid commands.

TL 8, communications subsystem (ie. the software is running on a computer
that can communicate with the outside world): With access to crew records
or passenger manifest, will contact system networks and search for arrest
warrants or criminal records of all ship occupants and warn command crew
(except crew with such a warrant or record). Will also warn command crew
immediately when any other anti-hijact feature is triggered.

TL 10, communications: The software monitors all public broadcasts and
public areas in the ship (and private ones, if legally allowed) for events
matching predefined threat patterns. These patterns include people saying
things like "hijack the ship" or "kill the captain", carrying weapons, or
sounds like alarms or weapon fire. Professional criminals can usually avoid
being caught this way by disguising weapons and using code words. It can
match visual scans of occupants against crew records or a passenger
manifest to identify possible impostors. It will also monitor for sounds or
movement in supposedly unoccupied areas, like access ways or cargo holds.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:36:56 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

or you're too close to the wooden propeller when the interruptor gear fails,
and the prop' splinters....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:06:08 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Favor requested

Gentlebeings:

I find I need to borrow a copy of the GDW Vargr module (not the DGP one, got
one of those) I need the original, pre-megaTraveller GDW Vargr module. Mine is
1100 miles away, and my need is desperate. 

I will return it in a month or so, undamaged...

please reply to LKW@io.com, off the list.

Thanks,

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:06:07 EDT
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Rite of Assassination

Q: You mean you can actually kill the Emperor?

A: Yes, if he's too weak to rule.

Q: How do you know when he's too weak to rule?

A: When he can't stop us from killing him...

 {apologies to the Cartoon History of the Universe}

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> The main problem with the Vilani is that they put the Stewards in
> command of their starships.   Cooking - 4 is equal to Leader - 4 on
> any Vilani starship.  The troops / spacers will be eagerly recruited
> and will follow the chef wherever they go.
> 
An important thing to remember is that an invitation to dinner by a Vilani
starship crew is not necessarily a *good* thing.!  (Especially if the crew
believe in "traditional" Vilani cuisine)

douglas


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:44:00 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

At 08:04 25/08/98 -0700, Ben Boren wrote:

>This made me think of the discussion we had recently regarding why the
>Imperium is so slow to develop new technologies. Mostly people brought up
>the issue that the Vilani are so culturally slow-moving people. But it
>occurs to me that all the sub-races within imperial borders are not
>necessarily the same way.

I've never found this a convincing argument, because the Solomani were
never more advanced than the 3rd Imperium, despite having (until the rim
war) the highest population and TL sector of the Imperium (the Solomani
Rim). If slow advancement was merely an artifact of the Imperium's cultural
background the Confederation (and its earlier forebears) with their Terran
cultural ancestors would've been the polity with the technological edge,
not the Imperium, and the Rim War would've quite possibly have ended very
differently (let alone the 'Rebellion').

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #774
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 26 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 775



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Re: Two questions....
Re: Vilani leaders 
Islait Dominate (Ealiyasiyw / Reavers' Deep)
Re: Black Globes
Political Reliability
Deckplan List
Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re 3i mil-service
Signing off (for a short)
Languages in use
US, Yanks in Space
OT Berserker request
Re: Military Benefits
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #769
Bases (was: US, Yanks in Space)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> or you're too close to the wooden propeller when the interruptor gear fails,
> and the prop' splinters....
> 

ummm...huh?  Non-sequitor.
I know that netiquette frowns on excessive quoting while replying to
messages, but perhaps just a *tiny* bit wouldn't raise eyebrows?  8^D

douglas


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:01:13 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Two questions....

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:25:01 EDT, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> I have two questions for the list....
> 
> 1) What do you do when your LBB's start to unravel? I have several that the
> staple holes have ripped into one long slot. The staples then can't hold the
> pages together.
> 
> 2) I have a lot of GDW CT and MT items (but no TNE except Striker II). I have
> never seen any deckplans for the 200 ton Free Trader (well I do have Snapshot,
> but the Scout Courier in that game looks nothing like the Type S's I see
> elsewhere, so I have to asume that the Free Trader has also changed...), and
> the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser from Book II. I have seen a zillion pictures of
> them from the outside, but not deckplans. Has a third party (like FASA or DGP
> or Seeker games) ever printed any deckplans of these two vessels (or GDW for
> that matter...)? I have Fat and Far Traders, but would love to have a Free
> trader too. I have seen the deckplans on the Missouri archives online, but I
> can never get the d--n things to print properly; I just get the upper left
> corner of the plans (I own a HP Deskjet 820Cse).

Unless I missed something, nobody's mentioned DGP's SOM (Starship
Operator's Manual).  The centerfold (heh, heh) is a large 11"x25" set of
deck plans for the famous Beowulf-class Free Trader.  They are done in the
traditional "white on blue" method, similar to the way *real* blueprints
are made.  Unfortunately, this makes the deck plans rather difficult to
photocopy without producing ugly results.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:11:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> >> 'An army marches on its stomach'; 'the way to a man's heart is through his
> >> stomach'.  
> 
> >The way to a man's heart is straight through the ribcage with a battleax.
> 
> Whew.  Thanks for the reminder I'm still on the TML <G>.

Heheh.

Welcome home.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:37:03 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Islait Dominate (Ealiyasiyw / Reavers' Deep)

Does anyone out there have any information on the Islait Dominate
(Ealiyasiyw subsectors H & L and Reavers Deep E & I)?

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:45:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes

...
>nearly undefendable. (There was some MT/TNE example of this kind of thinking
>involving a plan to preposition high-jump capability raider cruisers with
>black globes, a whonking great spinal mount, and no other weapons - I can't
>remember the name.)

  Nemesis?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:45:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Political Reliability

...
>I would say that like here in Arizona, there are regional divisions... 
>Like people from Phoenix & Tucson may fight, but don't let someone from
>outsiz Arizona step in...  I would have to say it would be the same thing
>in the 3I...  A cruiser may have mostly people from the same place crewing
>it...  This makes for greater crew integrity...

  Greater crew integrity is only a good thing if the society they come from
is loyal to the state/regime/corporation/herd/whatever. If there's a question
about that then a mixed crew (& officer corps) is preferable, as although
they may not be overly enthusiastic in service it will be much tougher to
arrange for the entire vessel to defect; at worst a cadre of mutineers will
be stuck with a badly damaged or under-crewed vessel.

  OTOH, the Imperium really muffed many aspects of internal political 
policing; perhaps the fall of the Empire can be dated from the reversal
of the repressive policies indicated in Adventure 1? :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:48:17 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Deckplan List

Given the several positive results I've received about a listing of
Traveller's published deckplans, I'm already working on it and will probably
have an early version of it on the site by the end of Wednesday.  Getting it
REALLY complete will take a bit of help, however, or it will just be a
complete list of what _I_ own, which is vast but not exhaustive.  So...

 If someone is so inclined, and has the complete run of one of the following
magazines, feel free to help the cause by indexing all Traveller deckplans in
those magazines. If you don't have a complete run, then tell me which ones you
DON'T have so someone else can check them.  The magazines I'm interested in at
the moment are:

 -Dragon
 -Dungeon (unlikely, but you never know)
 -Polyhedron (likewise)
 -Shadis
 -White Wolf (the early issues moreso than the later ones)
 -Different Worlds
 -White Dwarf (up through #100)
 -Space Gamer/Fantasy Gamer/TVIPoG

 So much for the "commercial" mags. I (will) have JTAS/Challenge covered, as
well as the FASA digest mags, MTJ, Traveller's Digest and Traveller Chronicle.
 As for the myriad of Traveller fanzines, I have only a scattered assortment,
and will include them as I can get to them. If the various 'zine editors want
to contribute to this index I certainly won't complain, and the advertisement
might help them...
 For the moment I'm NOT going to include Net sources. The print collection is
big enough...

 The information I need from other researchers is:

Name (Gazelle, Type A, Sulieman)
Function (Corsair, Close Escort, Cruiser)
Polity (Zhodani, Imperial, Vargr)
Size (in displacement tons)
Deckplan scale (1m, 1.5m, 2m, 3m or whatever)
Edition of Traveller plans are for (CT, MT, TNE, T4, G:T, T5)
Where Located (Supplement Name, Magazine name & Number)
Producing Company (where appropriate)
Pithy comments ("Bigger than expected," "This is streamlined?")

 As noted above, if you check part of a magazine collection let me know which
ones you looked at. I'll try to keep a list of checked sources handy on the
page as well.

Hoo Haa!!

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:04:18 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

Wow. I go away on vacation for two weeks and the TML turns into a morass.

I was just reading Flamefest '98 and came upon this comment (by James
Lindsey, methinks, and which was, IMHO, the most memorable one):

>mailing list of their own.  Forgive and forget, or do most Americans still
>hold a grudge against a few individuals that burnt down the White House a
>while back?


To which I would respond:

I do, them there gott-danged aliens from Independance Day! Wife, where's me
shotgun!

ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:06:23 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re 3i mil-service

>Is service in the 3i Navy all volunteer? How about the sector, subsector
>navies? I'll assume that the local defense forces have compulsory service
>at times, depending on the local government type and the current
>situation. If the Sector Duke tells the ruler of Esperance to provide
>half his troops to the Navy for invasion and garrison duties, the ruler
>might install a draft to make up the lost manpower. Point: Will there
>be situations where Draft Evasion is an Imperial Crime, perhaps on the
>same level as Desertion?

Obviously NOT! The rules mechanics (CT, MT, T4) include a chance of being
drafted.

IMTU, if a citizen is not gainfully employed by 1 imperial year after
attaining majority (by the established criteria for his species as per the
IISS standards), he or she or it may be drafted. I mechanic this by
allowing two different attempts to enlist in services of choice,
sequentially, not simultaneously, plus up to 2 attempts to enroll in
acadamies or college, and the  enlistments may be swapped for additional
college/acadamy attempts; no more than one attempt may be made to any
service or acadamy; if all of these options are failed, the draft must be
submitted to.

Also IMTU, draft results for Army, Sailor, and Flyer are Planetary. Scouts
are Imperial. Navy and Marines are variable; I allow player choice, but if
a player wants to roll here's the procedure: 2d6, DM + (Total of all DM's
for promotion, position, enlistment, and survival), DM+2 if HiSt tech, DM+1
if AvSt Tech, DM-2 if EaSt tech
	<=9: system navy
	10-11: subsector Navy
	12: Sector Navy*
	>=13: Imperial Navy
* some persons do not use sector naval forces other than the imperial ones.
I assume the more pupoulous sectors have some sector naval forces. In the
Marches, a 12 gets you imperial instead.

Rationale of MTU's Naval and Marine Draft:
The Imperial Navy supports the draft because it allows them to pick the
best and brightest from it's member worlds.assuming that one in 100 goes
into one of the 18 MT/CT careers, counting draftees, that still winds up
with some huge numbers imperium-wide. I actually assume the 18 careers
account for nearly 40% of all employed persons in one form or another. (The
rest being in things like farming and maufacture, that don't lend
themselves to Traveller's skill lists). So the Imperial Navy takes
volunteers, and takes the cream of the misapplied individuals.

For Example: Joe wants to play a scout. Joe fails the enlistment for the
scouts, so he applies to the scout acadamy, and fails that. Next he rolls
for Merchant acadamy, failing that too. So he tries to go merchant, fails
that. Now he must submit to the draft or take a job as a farmer or base
level laborer... not to his adventuring tastes. He submits, and just
happens to be sucked into the Marines (probably objecting loudly). WHen he
checks, he finds a total DM of +5 (totalling up the various DM's from the
Career Table). He is obviously a good fit for what they want (Max DM Total
is +7 under MT, IIRC), and rolling a 7, the Imperial Navy recruiter at the
local draft office grabs his chit, and ships him off to Marine basic. His
brother, almost identical att wise, has no clue, and submits to the draft
right off, also being drafted to the maries. Fred's roll is a 2, so he has
a totla roll of 9 (He obviously did poorly on the aptitude tests due to an
acute bunch of apathy), and the local space marines get stuck with him.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:16:59 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Signing off (for a short)

Due to the impending termination of my email account, I'm signing off the TML.

I'll be back next month with a new ISP.

- -wil

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:29:12 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Languages in use

Douglas Berry commented on hearing 4 languages almost daily in San Francisco.

In Anchorage, Alaska (USA), I have had days where I heard Inupiaq, Yupiq,
Tlingkit, Athapascan, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Armenian, and
spanish. In one case, I heard all but yupiq and tlingkit within 4 hours
(one bus ride, followed by going to a coffee shop staffed by armenians with
polish emigres coming in. And of course, alaska has 39 commonly spoken
languages. Many state forms are available in English, Spanish, Russian,
Yupiq, Inupiaq, and Aleut.

Almost all non-hispanics, however, also know english, simply to be able to
watch TV and file their taxes and read their hunting/fishing/trapping
liscences.

Ob Traveller: How much worse will the situation be in the imperium? how
many languages could you expect to find on a given world?

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:17:38 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aswfh@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: US, Yanks in Space

>This is not to say that the Swedish system is perfect, because it *isn't*,
>not by a long shot. It's just that it's not a horrible, evil
>commie-mutant-bastard system run by power-mad taxmen either.

No, but it is a high tax, high service, high failure rate society by some
indicators in use. One which *__Appears__* to stifle personal economic
initiative.

> Just like the
>US isn't a horrible, evil, culturally imperialist robber baron capitalist
>system run by warmongering lechers. ;-)

Gee, you've never lived in any of the american colonies (Alaska, Hawaii,
possibly also Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, American Samoa), where
cultural imperialism is supporting massive corporate bodies, and making it
hard for small concerns to get by. And WJ Clinton sure seems like a
warmongering Sex-Addict from here. While alaska and hawaii are states,
Alaska is definitely more of a colony. All the population centers of note
invlolve government centers or military fortifications. Government is the
number 3 industry (Oil and Tourism are the first two). No heavy industry,
and almost no light industry. And, of late, the feds just took away our
fisheries and game management.

Ob Traveller: How much say would a depot commander be able to swing over
the local government?

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:12:48 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: OT Berserker request

Don't ya just hate it when you make what you think is a pithy smart quip and 
then can't remember where it comes from.

Can somebody please tell me which one of the Berserker stories involved the 
custard pie? I can't for the life of me remember.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:22:40 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Military Benefits

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:02:44 -0400, you wrote:

>Hhhhmmm, you have a point.  Did they also tell you that the average life
>expectancy after military retirement (20 year, not disability retirement) is
>10.3 years.  BTW, I'm at 8 years and 11 months.  Did they mention that
>almost 85% leave the military after 20 years with a 20% or more disability.
>Mine is no one's business but my own.  Not even my wife knows.

It wasn't any better in Roman times, so don't complain!

The Legionaries served 25-6 years with the colours (usually joining at around 18
AFAIR), making them in their mid 40's when they retired. ISTR that the average
life expectancy of soldiers, Legionaries especially, was around 10 years more
than for their wives and children ... they were expensive to train, so the
Romans provided the best possible medical care for them.

They, too, did not do well after retirement, and ISTR that they mostly got
around 10 years extra.

Of course, for some senior officers (senior Centurions, holders of the
Primipilate, Camp Prefects, or those who managed to get a series of commands
over the Auxilia) could be still "in the harness" at age 70 plus.

>There are a few other things that they don't mention that seems to have been
>forgotten, time away from your family.  Unlike the Commander-In-Chief, I

Also nothing new. The Romans didn't even allow you to get married, officially,
while you were in the army ... and this meant that your children were bastards
unless you legitimised them *after* you retired. This was important for
Legionaries posted in out of the way places who cohabited with local women,
women who were not Roman Citizens ... the children inherited the citizenship of
the mother.

>don't believe in cheating on my wife so I had to endure severe cases of
>"blue balls" from time to time (please pardon my language, I just couldn't
>come up with a nicer way to say it).  When assigned to "hard ship" tours
>(family can't come) you lived by yourself with AFN for radio and TV (if you
>were lucky) and if you drank you could always go down to the "club" and get
>sloshed every night.  Oh BTW, that left me out, I quit drinking alcohol in
>1980 because I was warned that if I continued that my liver would move out.
>This wasn't because I was an alcoholic, just something I picked up on one of
>my little jaunts "overseas".

I always used chocolate, myself, being a teetotaller and not finding the company
of drunks (as opposed to the socially lubricated!) fun.

> I won't detail this with why I spent 175+ days in the hospital recovering
>from various assorted and sundry things like; objects being removed from my
>body; 21 fractured bones (11 vertebrae) from 12 separate incidents; a couple
>of diseases I can't even spell right today and more.   I am however, due to
>receive a new knee in the next three years paid for by my military
>retirement.  Oh, another minor little thing which isn't too bad, I can never
>give blood or donate organs, that is until medical science comes up with a
>better filtering system.

Yes, the downside ... but at least you get free medical care (when Congress
passes enough appropriations for it to filter down to you, I guess, from what I
understand of the reality of the VA these days ... or at least as it is
presented in "Proceedings" from time to time)! Of course, arguably, you wouldn't
have *needed* such care if you hadn't been in the military! Still, a not
inconsiderable benefit in a country with (effectively) no free medical care such
as the US. Even in Oz, veterans get much better "free" care than, say, I would
(if I didn't pay for medical insurance extra).

>Is it for everyone, NO!  Would I do it again, absolutely!!  Did I know what
>I was getting myself into, pretty much after my first hitch.  Was I doing it
>for the benefits and the pay, doesn't even deserve an answer.

But a lot do. Especially in the technical areas, I guess. Especially those who
see it as a way to get an education on the GI Bill rather than as a career.

>Thom Harris
>Chief Warrant Officer
>U.S. Army (Ret) 1969 - 1989

>P.S.
>I looked into one of those Government jobs that you mentioned.  I would be
>working for over $40,000 a year less than I make now in the civilian
>industry.  Makes you want to ask what would I have been making for 16 of
>those 20 years I was in the Army don't it.  If I had left the military back
>in 1973 then I would probably be making close to double what I make today.

Ex-Legionaries got a *very* good deal ... for a start, they were literate in a
society where literacy wasn't universal. They filled important (and well paid)
jobs as part of the Officia of Governors, Procurators and even in local
Municipal Councils (in the Provinces, at least). Pay for such positions was
often better than they would have gained in the Legions ... though things like
Medical Care would not have been included, for example.

While I agree with everything that you are saying, I think I need to make one
thing plain that *may* not have been ... I was talking about the *Imperial*
military. And High Tech Imperial society ... a lot of the problems you are
suffering from will be less of a problem (or no problem at all) for vets of the
Imperial military (though there will, undoubtedly, be new ones).

As a "for example" ... because of the lack of off-Terra disease, there is little
chance, I would guess, that most Imperial soldiers would be exposed to something
really exotic and nasty as you were!

Phil McGregor
Private
Citizen Military Forces (Ret) 1974-75

P.S. The tax free salary *was* important to me! As a struggling Uni student on a
pittance of a Teacher's Scholarship (A$36 a *fortnight* in 1973 for example, as
compared to a Private's tax free A$90 a *week*).

It was also an interesting experience ... but not one I really wanted to
continue beyond the two years. Anyway, teaching High School probably has some
similarities!
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:32:27 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 3:21 AM
Subject: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)


>
>ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
>the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
>effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
>references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
>Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>
IMTU: they do.. well most of them because it adds flavor to the visit to DC
and other places that we wanted to go.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:54:29 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

Rupert Boleyn wrote

>At 08:04 25/08/98 -0700, Ben Boren wrote:
>
>>This made me think of the discussion we had recently regarding why the

>>Imperium is so slow to develop new technologies. Mostly people brought
up
>>the issue that the Vilani are so culturally slow-moving people. But it

>>occurs to me that all the sub-races within imperial borders are not
>>necessarily the same way.
>
>I've never found this a convincing argument, because the Solomani were
>never more advanced than the 3rd Imperium, despite having (until the rim
>war) the highest population and TL sector of the Imperium (the Solomani

>Rim). If slow advancement was merely an artifact of the Imperium's cultural
>background the Confederation (and its earlier forebears) with their Terran
>cultural ancestors would've been the polity with the technological edge,
>not the Imperium, and the Rim War would've quite possibly have ended very
>differently (let alone the 'Rebellion').

One thing I have thought would contribute to the slow increase in tech
levels would be that many of the scientists/engineers move to low tech
planets to earn thier "fame".  The added paper work that the Vilani
culture imposesdrives these people to areas where the paper work,
testing, etc are limited.  Those who would become scientists may become
explorers on low tech/ newly discovered worlds.  Those who would become
engineers may decide to open manufacturing plants on lower tech worlds
to avoid the paperwork/liability requirements of high tech worlds. ( I,
as an engineer am more interested in building things than liability
limiting paperwork and excessive testing)  IMTU the Vilani culture which
was carried into the Imperium culture requires idiot-proofing the design
before it can be sold.  Excessive testing and revision before a profit
can be obtained.  This will limit technological advance.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:26:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

- ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

> > > Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about 
> > > to ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...
> > 
> > Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
> > in _years_! <g>
> 
> Ah, but Terry, 'ditch' means an attempt at a *controlled* crash.

It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 03:02:24 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

> From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
> >mailing list of their own.  Forgive and forget, or do most Americans still
> >hold a grudge against a few individuals that burnt down the White House a
> >while back?
> To which I would respond:
> 
> I do, them there gott-danged aliens from Independance Day! Wife, where's me
> shotgun!

LOL

> ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
> the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
> effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
> references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
> Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?

I would say, yes...  We would keep them around & they may still be in
use...  Hey, we are still using temp building from the war of 1812...

> Ciao,
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:58 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <Philk@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #769

<snip>
>>The example in question - an outdated Gazelle shooting itself - is
>>unusual, but not impossible. That production run of Gazelle's gun
>>turrets probably depended on computer-based safeties instead of
>>mechanical ones, and there was a glitch or
>>incompatibility with the program - perhaps the intended "Gazelle
>>Upper Turret Gunnery Program" had been lost and replaced with an
>>older, generic gunnery program intended for turrets that _did_ have
>>mechanical safeguards.
>>
>>Most military hardware (and probably software) expects you to know
>>what you are doing, after all.
>>
>>Walt Smith
>>
A possible scenario:

You discover that the local pirate has an ex-Gazelle upper turret fitted.
So you figure that as he is about to board, there will be a point where
the turret can't track but you could fire and disable the turret.
Unless of course they have removed the Gazelle safeties...

Alternatively, you have the ex-Gazelle turret and as you track your target
it safeties suddenly go "sorry you can't fire there because if this was a
Gazelle there would be something in the way"

Phil Kitching
- --
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:02:10 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Bases (was: US, Yanks in Space)

William F. Hostman wrote:
> Ob Traveller: How much say would a depot commander be  able  to
> swing over the local government?

IMTU: IN Depots (not other IN bases) completely own  and  control
the system they are in.  Any 'civilian' population represents the
non-military support services for the depot, its  personnel,  and
its personnel's families.  As such, any civilian government is  a
"capitive government" of the IN,  and  thus  subservient  to  it.
That's not to say that the civilian government doesn't  have  any
input into non-military decisions.

IN Bases, on the other  hand,  only  control  the  base  grounds.
Basically an IN base lies beyond the exterality  line  (like  the
starport).  Usually there is a high degree of cooperation between
the base commander and the local government over such matters  as
juridictional access to the startown by MPs, etc.

IISS Bases (of all types) also only control the base grounds  and
legally lie beyond the exterality line.  And while there are less
local powers for an IISS base commander  there  is  more  contact
between IISS personnel and the local  government.  The  IISS  can
offer greater local  services  to  the  local  governemnt  (local
surveys, interplanetary search and rescue, assistence with  major
trade agreements, library services, etc).


Regards PLST

"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly."  -  instructions  on
Kenner Products' Batman costume

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #775
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 26 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 776



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Piloting
Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: Question on Radiation Shielding
Re: Jinx
Re: Jinx
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Right of Assassination
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Ack...a bug! My FF&S Spreadsheet
Re: Right of Assassination
Re: OT Berserker request
Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Languages in use 
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate) 
Re: culture question
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Travellers
Re: culture question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:13:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Piloting

In mail you write:

>>Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun *didn't*
>>have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
>>equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!
>
> Yeah, I heard the same. Apparently the mechanical device to allow the German
> pilots to fire the machine gun through the propellers of their aircraft
> wasn't invented until some unlucky chap(s) blew the propeller to sawdust...
> I wonder how they tested the mounting in the first place?

Test? 

You have to realize that the first few armed planes were a matter of
pilots doing this on their own. Strictly improvised.

For example, they started out as observation only. Then a pilot on one
side got POed at one on the other side and took a rifle up with him.
Things escalated from there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:18:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation sheilding...maybe

In mail you write:

>>As I recall, LH2 isn't half bad at shielding from high energy protons,
>>which are the main rad hazard in flares.
>
> What about neutrons, you get a lot of those too and they're much harder to
> stop (I'd say any ship with a decent PP output can stop most charged
> particle radiation easily)

You don't get neutrons in flares. For one thing, free neutrons decay in
something like 13 minutes. So they wouldn't last long enough to get
there (it takes 20 or 30 minutes for the particles to arrive). Also,
the particles in the flares are accelerated by the star's magnetic
field. That doesn't do much for neutrons. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:23:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

In mail you write:

> I've always seen it as speeding up the reactions; stablization would imply
> an effect lingering after you turn the damper off, which doesn't make
> sense to me.  I would imagine that combat engineers *hate* nuke decon
> jobs...while you're 'cooking off' the radioactive elements in the crater,
> the radiation environment is going to be absolutely hellish.  Nothing that
> can't be dealt with using proper procedures, of course, but still not the
> sort of thing that makes for a comfortable feeling, given the consequences
> of screwing anything up.

Given the *range* of dampers, you can be out of the hazard area. But
the fun jobs are things like flagging the hazard perimeter and taking
periodic readings of the output of the crater so you can tell how far
along things are. 

Other "fun" problems are if you let the heat generation get high enough
for the rock to soften or flow. 

And if ground or surface water is involved, it's a *real* pain. You
have to build a coffer dam, pump the water out thru a damper treatment
unit, then dry things carefully. You see, steam might carry
radioactives out of range...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:35:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question on Radiation Shielding

In mail you write:

> This post caused me to think for a moment and then grab FFS 2. Once I
> installed Electrostatic Armor on a ship design and someone asked me why I
> would bother, since it's cost was more that the equivalant armor in
> superdense or some such. Now, reading the discription, ESA provides about
> half protection against kinetic energy type weapons KEAP, but full armor
> value against "HE, HEAP and *plasma/fusion* attacks".
>
> Could this be construed as radiation sheilds? Since it uses an EM burst for
> effect it seems to react in much the way Gordon describes from Jovian
> Chronicles. The only problem I see is the delay between when the penetration
> of the field is detected and when the burst can be activated. Also, would
> the duration of an ESA last long enough for the radiation to pass by?

Solar flare radiation hazard lasts from minutes to *days*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:45:55 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jinx

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> I just looked up the mechanics for the GURPS Jinx disadbvantage.
> 
> Basically the character is bad luck for everyone around him - they all get
> penalties depending on the level of the Jinx (for an extreme example,
> 2000AD ran a marvellous one-off Strontium Dog story. Johnny Alpha was given
> a bonus to escort a non-dangerous 'captive' off planet. Sorry Bob they
> called him - he was to be deported as a nuisance, not a criminal. For
> several episodes Johnny struggled manfully with Bob's Jinx - his car died,
> so they walked. A section of the road gave way & they fell into a sewer,
> where a flash flood swept them away,,, you get the idea....
> 
> In the end johnny admitted defeat and brought Sorry Bob back to the police
> station....
> 
> Seems like MY jinx works the other way round. My disasters affect only me.
> They're caused by picking up the dice. If only I could avoid doing
> that.....

Is Chance Harper your brother?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:45:55 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jinx

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> I just looked up the mechanics for the GURPS Jinx disadbvantage.
> 
> Basically the character is bad luck for everyone around him - they all get
> penalties depending on the level of the Jinx (for an extreme example,
> 2000AD ran a marvellous one-off Strontium Dog story. Johnny Alpha was given
> a bonus to escort a non-dangerous 'captive' off planet. Sorry Bob they
> called him - he was to be deported as a nuisance, not a criminal. For
> several episodes Johnny struggled manfully with Bob's Jinx - his car died,
> so they walked. A section of the road gave way & they fell into a sewer,
> where a flash flood swept them away,,, you get the idea....
> 
> In the end johnny admitted defeat and brought Sorry Bob back to the police
> station....
> 
> Seems like MY jinx works the other way round. My disasters affect only me.
> They're caused by picking up the dice. If only I could avoid doing
> that.....

Is Chance Harper your brother?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:55:36 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at 
>least somewhat alter the balance of power...
>
>(Tactical FTL comm, I mean - using a small ship with a telepath to 
>relay targeting info to a large ship to overcome lightspeed lag and 
>hit an evading target at long range.)
>

This would have a major impact on the Imperium.  If the Zhos became 
"unbeatable" for a while, kind of like the time period of the Fokker 
Scourge I mentioned, due to their psi-targetting and psi-comm, the 3I 
would need to either rethink (sorry) the use/acceptance of psi or 
develop something that would defend against such a system.  

Just how quickly does the list think that the 3I could get a few psi 
talkers into positions in the fleet?  How would the Navy's use of psi 
affect the 3I general public?  Make psi acceptable again?

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:44:51 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Right of Assassination

RoA came about as a piece of expediency, allowing the Moot to save the
Imperium by removing an insane emperor and put a saner one in his place.
The precedent is unfortunate, but that's Imperial Law.

But what about Fleet Control? Well, here's what happened:

'Hello. I'm Olav hault-Plankwell. I'm here for the throne.'
'By what right? (read read) Nope. Nothing in the law to match your
background. You have no claim.'
'Yes I do.'
'OK then. By what right do you claim the Throne?'
'See that fleet? '
'Oh.... hang on.... (read read). Uh... your point is?'
'Fleet into firing position....'
'OH... (read read... scribble scribble...) hang on, I missed this one:
	The possession of a battle fleet capable of blasting me and Capital and...
just about everything...	into sparking flinders of subatomic debris....
(eek) is (scribble) sufficient right for me.

	Will that do, Mr Plankwell?'

'Just about'
'Ok then (whew). Here's the keys to the palace.... Emperor Plankwell. I'll
get someone to clear the body off the throne for you.'
'What body?'
'Oh... (Blam blam) that one.'
'OK. That'll about do it.'

And thus Emperor Plankwell began his reign, and the 'Plankwell edition' of
the Suceession Rights was printed, with the handwritten note converted into
nice gold typeface. A copy of the original (amended) document still exists,
with the note appended in the margin 'Force is the ultimate Arbiter' .

Just look what happened to the last guy who believed that!

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:45:32 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

Terry Mixon wrote:
> It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In
> said crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot
> crashing through the view window in front. I certainly can accept
> that in the game but how tough would those things have to be for
> structural integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through
> one?

If he was a Virushi, maybe.  No, I don't  think  so.  Given  that
the window of the Space Shuttle was nearly penetrated by a  paint
flake less than the size of a postage stamp ... I would say  that
any Traveller spacecraft viewport would have to have  a  strength
equal  to  that  of  an  unarmoured  ship  hull.  If  I  remember
correctly (I don't have the materials with me) that is equivalent
to 33.6 cm of steel.  So your co-pilot would burst on the  window
like a water mellon before he'd go through it!

Regards PLST

"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly."  -  instructions  on
Kenner Products' Batman costume

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 06:00:15 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

Ben Borren wrote:
>
>What if some world in the Imperium managed to rise naturally to tech 
>level G, or higher? What kind of power would such a world have? 
>

I don't have my books around here, so I don't know.  Changing a tech 
level requires the ability to maintain or manufacture things in the 
local economy.  Going from a B to C would mean that the world is now 
capable of doing C-type things locally.  And this would not be too hard, 
in that there is a lot of C-F stuff in the Imperium.

What would it take for a world to officially reach TL G?  What would 
their capabilities be?

Then, what are the barriers that have stopped the tech development?

Realize (as previously posted) that we are talking about Vilani culture 
as the reason for slow increases.  The Darrians, K'Kree, Vargr, Zho's, 
Solomani, ?, etc., don't share that culture, as previously pointed out.  
There must be tech barriers that are holding up development.  We should 
identify those.  Those barriers would represent the area in which the 
scientists would be doing research.  The frontiers of what we HAVE been 
able to do, but can't duplicate, can't do safely, etc are what I have in 
mind.

Some areas are possible, but taboo.  Like cloning, I think.  Because it 
goes against the grain, is against religion, still isn't stable for 
sophonts (even after all these years) whatever.  Higher jump capability 
comes to mind (and we've discussed that).  Misjumps take ships up to 36 
parsecs away, but we can't control it, and it's too expensive to really 
tackle (unless you are the Imperial Research Federation with a gazillion 
credits, whose budget is being cut because of ......).  Research 
continues into J7, disposable fuel tanks, misjumps, jump sickness, 
higher g maneuver drives, g-compensators.  But for some reason, the best 
minds in the galaxy can't break through. 

Adventure Hook:  A scientist on planet Fitb A666666-F (f-i-t-b stolen 
from another poster) has a breakthrough in XX.  A patron, working on 2XX 
discovered that while reading an obscure journal from a subsector over, 
and the information is a bit stale (2 years or so).  He thinks it will 
be the breakthrough that he needs to provide the control to the process 
he's spent his 30 year career working towards.  He wants you to go meet 
the scientist and try to get all his data so that he can apply it to his 
process.  Problem is (choice) 1) the scientist is dead, 2) the world is 
red/amber zoned, 3) he couldn't duplicate it after all, 4) he knows of 
your patron but hates him for stealing some of his ideas 25 years 
before, 5) the government sealed his work for (unknown security 
reasons), 6) YOUR government (captive) won't allow the research to be 
imported....  Etc.

If we could identify the barriers that we think are holding up advances 
in various areas...could make for good adventures to push the envelope 
on technology development...

Has the tech list done this?
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:08:11 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

The Count wrote:
> Just how quickly does the list think that the 3I could get a few
> psi talkers into positions in the fleet? How would the Navy's
> use of psi affect the 3I general public? Make psi acceptable
> again?

Hmmm ... remember that the orders issued  in  800  to  close  the
Psionic Institutes were secretly recinded on two  occasions?  The
Imperium already uses Psi in limited cases.  If assigning a long-
range telepath to each fleet admiral were  practical  they  would
have done it by now.  I  also  seem  to  remember  that  Research
Station Gamma in the Spinward Marches was researching long  range
psi communications.  Perhaps long-range telepaths  are  extremely
rare, or maybe they are prone to spoofing by enemy telepaths.  In
any case if this were  possible,  the  IN  could  do  it  without
informing the general public.



Regards PLST

"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly."  -  instructions  on
Kenner Products' Batman costume

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:14:11 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Ack...a bug! My FF&S Spreadsheet

*sigh* This always seems to happen. I make an update, release it, and
someone finds a bug. I really should sack my quality assurance staff...but
since my QA staff is the same as my developement staff (and that would be
me), I don't think it would work. I shall instead flog myself.

Version 3.1 is now available. It fixes one minor bug - but I'm striving to
make this as bug free as possible, so here we go...

The bug deals with Contra Grav use on missile design sequence #1. It was
using some figures from missile design sequence #2 for some reason :P

As usual, the spreadsheet can be found:

http://www.ames.net/igor/traveller

in the File List section. OR, if you go into the site itself, it can be
found in the Operations section.

Thank you, and my apologies. I'll go do that flogging now...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:23:56 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Right of Assassination

From:           	"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date sent:      	Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:44:51 +0100

> RoA came about as a piece of expediency, allowing the Moot to save the
> Imperium by removing an insane emperor and put a saner one in his place.
> The precedent is unfortunate, but that's Imperial Law.

I don't think it actually evolved quite like that. I more see the evolution of RoA 
as having evolved more like this:

1 - In 245 the members of the Moot meet and decide to remove a loony from
    the throne. Now this is _not_ strictly necessary. Under the Warrant of
    Restoration (WoR) the Emperor can only be removed from the position of
    Emperor by death or abdication; however nothing in the WoR gives the
    Emperor either a) immunity from the law, or b) the right to murder members
    of the Moot. Therefore the Moot could have simply had arrested Cleon III for
    murder and let the law take its course. Now the Moot choose not to do that,
    instead they choose to have Cleon assassinated. Now given that the Moot
    would most likely include the odd constitutional lawyer this had to have been
    a deliberate choice. Why? because it so firmly establishes that the Moot
    may remove an unfit Emperor, thereby avoiding this situation in the future (or
    so its hoped).
    Now with the Emperor removed the question arises as to who will succeed
    him. The way I see things happening is that someone in the Moot said "Hey
    Porifia had the balls to knock the bugger off, I bags she gets to be Emperor"
    (or words to that effect) and the rests of the Moot decided fair enough, she
    took the risk of the assassination (showing great courage, honour etc.) so
    she'd make a good Empress. NOTE at this point the RoA does not exist,
    its simply that Porifia's actions have swayed the Moot into electing her.

2 - Some time down the track (612) the Civil War is raging and George is
    looking through his copy of "The succession crisis of 245" (Langor, Duriim
    and Hankl, Sylean University Press 311) and notes the events. Then George
    assassinates Nicoli and claims he has acted for the good of the Imperium
    just as Porifia did; and claims the throne by "Right of Assassination" citing
    245 as his precedent. Of course the Moot do not accept this and George
    meets a sticky end in 613. But more Imperial candidates claim this
    supposed right and in 619 the Moot accepts Catherine as Empress on the
    basis of RoA. Right at that moment the Right of Assassination comes into
    being as a legitimate means of Imperial succession and nothing short of a
    written amendment to the Imperium's constitution can change it. Now this is
    actually a simple thing, but nobody ever gets round to it. Then in 1116
    Dulinor revives the RoA and the Imperium comes apart.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:00:04 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: OT Berserker request

>Don't ya just hate it when you make what you think is a pithy smart quip and
>then can't remember where it comes from.
>
>Can somebody please tell me which one of the Berserker stories involved the
>custard pie? I can't for the life of me remember.

I believe it was _The Jester_.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 07:48:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

>From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
...
>>>    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
>>>seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)
>
>> What about the People's Republic of Berkely--"eight square miles,
>>surrounded by reality."
>
>Folks, if the list is choosing to avoid saying and hearing unflattering things
>about the USA and various forms of capitalist economies, it seems to me the
>the minimally adult thing to do is not then turn around and make digs about
>_other_ political and economic systems. 

  Gee, Kenji, you're beginning to look like a backslider - remember the
official line is that we're not dead, just pining, at least until this
Virus thing is over with...

  Besides, it's not like the US has very closely resembled their own
theoretical capitalist model very closely at all since at least the
Second World War.

  And how many Presidents has Castro outlasted? :>

  Brought to you by the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:07:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Languages in use 

> Douglas Berry commented on hearing 4 languages almost daily in San Francisco.
> 
> In Anchorage, Alaska (USA), I have had days where I heard Inupiaq, Yupiq,
> Tlingkit, Athapascan, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Armenian, and
> spanish. In one case, I heard all but yupiq and tlingkit within 4 hours
> (one bus ride, followed by going to a coffee shop staffed by armenians with
> polish emigres coming in. And of course, alaska has 39 commonly spoken
> languages. Many state forms are available in English, Spanish, Russian,
> Yupiq, Inupiaq, and Aleut.

In Cleveland, you can hear Yiddish, German, Polish, Russian, Arabic, 
Pakistani, and Spanish spoken on a daily basis in a couple areas.

> Ob Traveller: How much worse will the situation be in the imperium? how
> many languages could you expect to find on a given world?

Depends.  On colonised planets, maybe 2 or 3, of which Galanglic would be the 
most common if the colony was Imperial.  On worlds with a native minor race, 
you could get donzens or hundreds, depending on the TL the planet was at when 
contacted.

Keven
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:14:13 EDT
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)

It was said:
> it was the "crme de la crme" of the Moot-eligible
> nobles that acted; the lower-level Moot-eligible nobles may very
> well have been drowned out in the storm.  And the Warrant is
> specific; it requires an absolute majority of all Imperial nobles
> eligible to sit in Moot, not just those who are present at the
> time of the vote.  That vote never happened.

But what about the proxies.  With Capital being so far away, the 
MT IE explains that most of the Imperium's nobles have given their
votes to proxies.  Could the "crme de la crme" have held an overall 
majority?

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:11:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate) 

> ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
> the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
> effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
> references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
> Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?

One hand, they'dve been standing for going on 4000 years.  Other hand, 3700 
years of probable intermittant maintanance.  Gripping hand, if there was 
enough to make off of them through tourism, the sites themselves at least 
would be there.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:20:28 EDT
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: culture question

It was said:
> Regina wasn't settled until the mid-400s, well into the Third
> Imperium, so that one is explained easily.

Oops.  You are, of course, correct.  I guess I should brush up on my 
Spinward Marches history.

After posting my question I noticed that CT Book 6 "Scouts" mentions the 
Regina system in detail, explaining that all the planets around the far 
companion star were named for distinguished Vilani writers.

I suppose the Vilani strain of Imperial colonialism is there if you look 
for it.

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:22:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> > > > Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about 
> > > > to ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...
> > > 
> > > Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
> > > in _years_! <g>
> > 
> > Ah, but Terry, 'ditch' means an attempt at a *controlled* crash.
> 
> It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
> crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
> through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
> game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
> integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?

Poetic license.  He was slated to die by the dice during the landing, so I 
thought it would look *cool* if he hit the viewport and took it out.  
Remember, you guys hit at over 300 km/hr.  I calc'ed it out at better than 100 
meters/sec, so the decel would have been 10G or more.  The chair he was 
strapped into increased the total weight to over 150 kilos, and it didn't slow 
down very much when it broke loose.  150 kilos moving at 100 m/s is a LOT of 
kinetic energy.  Thus, through the viewport like a straw in a hurricane.

BTW, your guy broke at least a rib in the landing.  <grin>

Keven
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:05:06 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>   Gee, Kenji, you're beginning to look like a backslider - remember the
> official line is that we're not dead, just pining, at least until this
> Virus thing is over with...

They're just pining to the fjords...

>   Brought to you by the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy

This message brought to you by the Traveller/Monty Python Conspiracy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:28:25 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Travellers

Does anyone remember "The Travellers" from early White Dwarf magazine?


Regina Control: "Sorry guys, we just found out that a type S scout isn't
aerodynamic enough for a dead-stick landing."
Scout ship, already in atmosphere: "Thanks Regina control."

My second son is named Gavin, btw... <g>


Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:53:11 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: culture question

At 11:20 AM 8/26/98 EDT, you wrote:

>After posting my question I noticed that CT Book 6 "Scouts" mentions the 
>Regina system in detail, explaining that all the planets around the far 
>companion star were named for distinguished Vilani writers.
>
>I suppose the Vilani strain of Imperial colonialism is there if you look 
>for it.

Living in San Francisco has given me an interesting view on multi-lingual
cultures and names.  SF has quite a collection of different linguistic
groups, from the expected English and Spanish, to Italian, Chinese,
Russian, and oddities like Hmong.  In different areas of the city, you'll
find entire blocks with nary an English language sign in sight.  Two of the
more notable examples are "Coso de Cristibol Colombo" (Columbus street
where it runs through the heavily-Italian area of North Beach), and
Chinatown, where the street signs are in English and Chinese, as is the
menu at McDonalds.

As for naming, we had quite a controversy when the Board of Supervisors
decided to rename Army St. after labor activist Ceaser Chavez.  The street
runs through several different neighborhoods, and there was the usual SF
activism both for and against the measure, split straight down ethnic lines.

I could imagine where the naming/renaming of systems during the early 2I
would cause intense problems, especially for the tradition-bound Vilani.
On the other hand, the Solomani seemed more likely to colonize marginal
worlds, giving more opportunities for "native" naming without offending
Vilani sensibilities.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #776
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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 26 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 777



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Local Factions and Temporary Unity
TL G+
Re: Question about radiation shielding
Re: culture question
Languages in the 3I
Using teeps (telepaths) in the Imperial Navy
Early air combat
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Languages in use
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)
Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Languages in the 3I
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Languages in use

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:32:19 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

At 10:05 AM 8/26/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>>   Gee, Kenji, you're beginning to look like a backslider - remember the
>> official line is that we're not dead, just pining, at least until this
>> Virus thing is over with...
>
>They're just pining to the fjords...
>
>>   Brought to you by the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy
>
>This message brought to you by the Traveller/Monty Python Conspiracy

Both being divisions of the Ancient and Excellent Templar Conspiracy.
Serving you since FNORD.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:30:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

>>(Tactical FTL comm, I mean - using a small ship with a telepath to
>>relay targeting info to a large ship to overcome lightspeed lag and
>>hit an evading target at long range.)

>This would have a major impact on the Imperium.  If the Zhos became 
>unbeatable for a while...

I wasn't suggesting it as something that would make them unbeatable - just
something that would create tactical surprise until the Imperium figures it
out, and help the Zhondani overcome the big TL-15 vs TL-14 disadvantage.
Once the imperium figures out what's going on, they can start targeting
the (close) spotter ships early in a battle; taking full advantage of 
psi-spotting requires very careful Zho tactics (could be an interesting
Battle Rider or BL scenario. THe rule would be that an[By time a Zho 
ship fires, use the average of the range from it to its target and the
closest Zho ship to that target for the -1DM/3 hexes modifier. Tactically
what one should do is use a small hard-to-hit 6G ship close to the enemy 
while your big warship stays farther away.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:31:29 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

At 02:04 AM 8/26/1998 -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

>ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
>the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
>effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
>references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
>Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?
>
In Travellers' Digest 13, when the characters visit Earth, it has changed
considerably.  The average temp. is warmer resulting in a 15 meter increase
in sea level.  Many 20th century era cities now look like Holland with
seawalls preventing submergeance.  One illustration by W.H. Keith shows the
New York Historical Museum (old Long Island that was once domed over due to
pollution), with the Statue of Liberty still there.  A lot of the plot of
the adventure revolves around the Pyramids of Giza (where a hidden Psionics
Institute is located within more tunnels in the big pyramid that were later
discovered with the help of densitometers).  The Eiffel Tower is still
around as well as the ruins of Machu Picchu.  A lot of old sites are
protected and maintained by the Terran Historical Administration.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:04 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Local Factions and Temporary Unity

History is full of... well, history.  The Greeks united (Sparta
and Athens were formidable as a team) to defeat Mesopotamia.
However, once the invaders were repelled, and after Pericles'
30-year golden age of Athens, they fell back to warring among 
themselves and squandering their strength on each other.

I suppose this kind of thing is the norm rather than the
exception. 

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:03:21 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: TL G+

>
>Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 06:00:15 PDT
>From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences
>
>Ben Borren wrote:
>>
>>What if some world in the Imperium managed to rise naturally to tech
>>level G, or higher? What kind of power would such a world have?
>>
>
>I don't have my books around here, so I don't know.  Changing a tech
>level requires the ability to maintain or manufacture things in the
>local economy.  Going from a B to C would mean that the world is now
>capable of doing C-type things locally.  And this would not be too hard,
>in that there is a lot of C-F stuff in the Imperium.
>
>What would it take for a world to officially reach TL G?  What would
>their capabilities be?
>
>Then, what are the barriers that have stopped the tech development?
>
>Realize (as previously posted) that we are talking about Vilani culture
>as the reason for slow increases.  The Darrians, K'Kree, Vargr, Zho's,
>Solomani, ?, etc., don't share that culture, as previously pointed out.
>There must be tech barriers that are holding up development.  We should
>identify those.  Those barriers would represent the area in which the
>scientists would be doing research.  The frontiers of what we HAVE been
>able to do, but can't duplicate, can't do safely, etc are what I have in
>mind.
>
>Some areas are possible, but taboo.  Like cloning, I think.  Because it
>goes against the grain, is against religion, still isn't stable for
>sophonts (even after all these years) whatever.  Higher jump capability
>comes to mind (and we've discussed that).  Misjumps take ships up to 36
>parsecs away, but we can't control it, and it's too expensive to really
>tackle (unless you are the Imperial Research Federation with a gazillion
>credits, whose budget is being cut because of ......).  Research
>continues into J7, disposable fuel tanks, misjumps, jump sickness,
>higher g maneuver drives, g-compensators.  But for some reason, the best
>minds in the galaxy can't break through.
>
>Adventure Hook:  A scientist on planet Fitb A666666-F (f-i-t-b stolen
>from another poster) has a breakthrough in XX.  A patron, working on 2XX
>discovered that while reading an obscure journal from a subsector over,
>and the information is a bit stale (2 years or so).  He thinks it will
>be the breakthrough that he needs to provide the control to the process
>he's spent his 30 year career working towards.  He wants you to go meet
>the scientist and try to get all his data so that he can apply it to his
>process.  Problem is (choice) 1) the scientist is dead, 2) the world is
>red/amber zoned, 3) he couldn't duplicate it after all, 4) he knows of
>your patron but hates him for stealing some of his ideas 25 years
>before, 5) the government sealed his work for (unknown security
>reasons), 6) YOUR government (captive) won't allow the research to be
>imported....  Etc.
>
>If we could identify the barriers that we think are holding up advances
>in various areas...could make for good adventures to push the envelope
>on technology development...
>
>Has the tech list done this?
>The Count,
>MonteCristo@hotmail.com
>______________________________________________________
Well the Regency sourcebook states that Vincennes has a significant amount
of TL17 technology in prototype form and it is imminent to becoming an
official TL 17 world. I think the main reason so many worlds seem to stop or
at least slow down greatly at TL 15 is probably due to cost - it states in
the sourcebook resources were used to bring worlds up to that level rather
than having a few TL 16 or 17 worlds while most are left behind.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the page but I do vaguely remember seeing
something in the sourcebook about the regency not going for TL16 because of
the difficulties of maintaining a large fleet of mixed TL 15 and TL 16
ships. I would suspect the current Darrien Patrol Cruisers are kept at
artificially low numbers to ensure the two TL16 worlds in the regency have
no problems maintaining those ships. I would expect the next stage of the
regencys industrial development plans would be to raise the 6 worlds who
tried to be come TL 16 instead of Mora to TL 16 and allow Vincennes to raise
to TL 17 (thus providing them with the opportunity to work out the best way
to raise other worlds to TL 17). Once they have about 8 TL 16 worlds they
would probably be able to start turning out the maintenance facilities
required to maintain a TL 16 fleet.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Question about radiation shielding

> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:23:23 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> > I've always seen it as speeding up the reactions; stablization would imply
> > an effect lingering after you turn the damper off, which doesn't make
> > sense to me.  I would imagine that combat engineers *hate* nuke decon
> > jobs...while you're 'cooking off' the radioactive elements in the crater,
> > the radiation environment is going to be absolutely hellish.  Nothing that
> > can't be dealt with using proper procedures, of course, but still not the
> > sort of thing that makes for a comfortable feeling, given the consequences
> > of screwing anything up.
> 
> Given the *range* of dampers, you can be out of the hazard area.

Of course.

> But the fun jobs are things like flagging the hazard perimeter and
> taking periodic readings of the output of the crater so you can tell how
> far along things are.
> 
> Other "fun" problems are if you let the heat generation get high enough
> for the rock to soften or flow. 
> 
> And if ground or surface water is involved, it's a *real* pain. You
> have to build a coffer dam, pump the water out thru a damper treatment
> unit, then dry things carefully. You see, steam might carry
> radioactives out of range...

These are just the sorts of things I was imagining would make this a hard,
annoying, avoid-if-possible job.  Not to mention the fun of doing the
walk-around-the crater final survey for 'hot spots' missed due to (say)
poor damper geometry...I'm sure there are just *loads* of volunteers for
that duty.  (And yes, you could use robots, but where's the evil GM glee
in that?)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:24:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: culture question

We have (had actually as I no longer live there...) the same language problems
in NYC. As an example, the 60th. Precinct (NYCPD) is in Brighton Beach. There
is a large Russian immigrant population (both ethnic Jewish, and ethnic Slav),
and a Spanish population (mostly Puerto Rican, and assorted central American
countries). At the front desk, the poster instructing civilians what to do is
in English, Spanish, Russian, and Hebrew (maybe Yiddish rather?).

Ob Traveller: How well does Admin work without multi language ability? (I know
people are SUPPOSED to know Galanglic, however...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:35 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Languages in the 3I

I expect worlds in the 3I rest somewhere in the range from
provincial to megacosmopolitan.  

Provincial towns, states, systems, and clusters which represent one 
cultural group would only have 3 languages... Galanglic, Vilani, and 
whatever their language is (which is likely to derive from a Vilani, 
Zhodani, Darrian, or Terran variant for humans).

Cosmopolitan regions will have representations from all neighboring
cultural groups, including their religions, languages, and politics.

Assuming a few interstellar languages originate per sourceworld, and a 
few variants each for world clusters, you could still be up against 
thousands of distinct languages, with a beautiful language tree
branching out wide and dialects abounding.  The Long Night may be
sufficient to give every world its own set of languages, even if
there were only "official" languages (Galanglic and "Vilani").

But then, the longer an official state language dominates the less
hold local languages will have on their population.  Core, then, having
thousands of years of interstellar trade -- and especially Sylea --
would tend to have Trade Vilani (and perhaps Galanglic later) used as 
native tongues.  Same with Vland.  Other sectors of the 1st Imperium
would probably have cultural regions, blurred by the Imperium, with
a handful of surviving languages each which would flourish and entrench
during the Long Night.  The Solomani Rim would be a hodgepodge of 100
Terran languages and dialects, mutually unintelligible, and Galanglic
may be prominent and even official, but I really doubt everyone there
knows it or cares to.

So, to sum up:
	1st Imperium Sectors: 
		Trade Vilani				80%
		Galanglic				80%
		0-10 languages per subsector or so	25%

	Solomani Sphere: 
		Galanglic				50%
		100-1000 Terran dialects		90%
		Trade Vilani				25%

	3rd Imperium "new" Sectors: 
		Galanglic				90%
		Trade Vilani				40%
		0-10 languages per world or region.	50%

I dunno... do these percentages look okay?

Rob
IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:45 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Using teeps (telepaths) in the Imperial Navy

The Imperial Navy flatly denies any complicity in the use
of telepaths in advanced tactical battle systems.  The use or
tolerance of psionics by any entity is a class 5 crime in Imperial 
law and a violation of applicable Imperial health laws.

Psionic ability is a genetic defect that needs curing under the 
healing hand of Imperial medicine.  If you or a loved one manifests
psionic symptoms, please contact your nearest Imperial Care Center
immediately.  Psionics, if left untreated, can lead to death or
permanent physical and/or mental damage.

Please, help bring relief to the afflicted, before it's too late.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:47:50 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Early air combat

The early air warriors made rude getures at one another. Then they started
taking up various weapons - revolvers, shotguns - and believe it or not
darts and the odd brick. Imagine a dogfight involving housebricks and
rocks!!!!!

Later someone experimented with a plane mounting a rear-swivel mounted
machinegun. Sadly the experiment was failure. The airfield was attacked;
the planes scambled and started to fight it out with pistols and rifles.
The 'gunbus' was too heavily laden to reach combat altitude in time. 

But later, with better engines, it became feasable. 

BTW: there was an alternative to interruptor apparatus to allow
front-mounted machineguns. It consisted of a metal plate welded to the prop
to deflect bullets. It even worked!

Sometimes...!

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:03:40 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

>>ObTrav: Do ... other modern landmarks ... still exist on Terra, or did the
>>effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
>>references to this ...?

>In Travellers' Digest 13, ...

<snip>


Thank you sir, this is just the type of information I was looking for. Wow.
A 4,000 year old Statue of Liberty. That would be incredible to visit.

Ciao,

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:08:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Languages in use

In mail you write:

> Ob Traveller: How much worse will the situation be in the imperium? how
> many languages could you expect to find on a given world?

It'll depend a *lot* on the world's history. 

A world settled by a relative homogenous group and not subject to
massive immigration will have whatever language that group spoke
(possibly with greater or lesser linguistic shift if it's been settled
for a long time) and a smattering of whatever recent immigrants speak. 

If they've gotten later batches of immigrants from a group that tends
to maintain its own culture independent of the culture they are (Jews
being the classic example) then you'll find that language too, though
it may only be used inside the group.

If the original settlement was mixed or there have been large waves of
immigrants you could have several languages.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:17:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

In mail you write:

>> ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern landmarks such as
>> the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower still exist on Terra, or did the
>> effects of time and war reduce these to memories? Are there any canonical
>> references to this (or any personal campaign references)? How about
>> Invasion: Earth? Or Rats and Cats?
>
> One hand, they'dve been standing for going on 4000 years.  Other hand, 3700 
> years of probable intermittant maintanance.  Gripping hand, if there was 
> enough to make off of them through tourism, the sites themselves at least 
> would be there.

I'd say some will be there, some won't. Consider that the "Seven
Wonders" of the Ancient World were all tourist attractions (really!)
yet only two or three of them still exist (and of those two are in
ruins). 

The one that still exists, in something like the original state is the
Great Pyramid. It'd take a *close* nuke to damage it noticeably!

BTW, it must have *really* been something a few thousand years back.
Back then not only were all the limestone facing stones in place
(giving it a smooth surface), but they were still white and polished.
(the surving facing, up near the top, has been sandblasted for
thousands of years and has a lot of dirt embedded in the pores of the
stone). When they were relatively new the sunlight must have been
blinding at some times of day!

My vote for the *least* likely to survive goes to the Eiffel Tower and
the Statue of Liberty. They are both large metal structures exposed to
the elements. The Kremlin is stone & brickwork, and those last. The
Whitehouse is stone and wood, also materials with a long track record. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:34:05 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial "Constitutional" Debate (Crisis of 1116)

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:43:42 -0400, "Sean Nelson"
<sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It was said:

By me...

>> it was the "crme de la crme" of the Moot-eligible
>> nobles that acted; the lower-level Moot-eligible nobles may very
>> well have been drowned out in the storm.  And the Warrant is
>> specific; it requires an absolute majority of all Imperial nobles
>> eligible to sit in Moot, not just those who are present at the
>> time of the vote.  That vote never happened.

<<flip, flip, flip... read, read, read...>>

Eeep!  I goofed!  The Warrant don't say _squat_ about the size of
the majority or quorum, or whether proxies are valid.  I seem to
remember some other discussion that suggested that this was the
case - but I don't have it in canon anywhere that I can easily
lay my hands on.

>But what about the proxies.  With Capital being so far away, the 
>MT IE explains that most of the Imperium's nobles have given their
>votes to proxies.  Could the "crme de la crme" have held an overall 
>majority?

And that, coupled with this, makes the whole thing a whole
'nuther ball game.  Except that we have _no_ indication that a
vote ever took place, thus putting us right back in the same old
game.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:33:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Technology and Cultural Influences

In mail you write:

> Then, what are the barriers that have stopped the tech development?

<snip>

> If we could identify the barriers that we think are holding up advances 
> in various areas...could make for good adventures to push the envelope 
> on technology development...

Actually, I think the main barrier is a fundamental part of the
background. Once you spread beyond a single system, communication
between researchers takes longer. Rate of increase *is* directly
proportional to the rate at which info travels between different
scientists.  And it seems to be a "rule" that the higher the TL, the
more people it takes working on something to achieve a breaktrough.

Given the size of the Imperium, we have a lot of people. But how many
of them are researchers at TL-F? And how long does it take for info
about new results to circulate? 

There's going to be a *lot* of duplication of effort, simply because
Researcher A doesn't know that Researcher B tried the same thing 4
years ago on the other side of the Imperium. 

And worse yet, Research can be sidetracked for years here on earth
because someone reported a result and it later turns out that they or
on of their grad students "fudged" the results. In the Imperium, when
you add in lag time, it'd easily be decades or even a century or two
before someone decided to re-do the critical experiment (maybe as a
class assignment, maybe just out of frustration).

And finally, keep in mind that the "easy" stuff gets discovered first.
So *of course* the hard stuff takes longer.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:43:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

In mail you write:

> ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
>
>> > > Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about 
>> > > to ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...
>> > 
>> > Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
>> > in _years_! <g>
>> 
>> Ah, but Terry, 'ditch' means an attempt at a *controlled* crash.
>
> It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
> crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
> through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
> game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
> integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?

Well, to start with, if the inertial compensators were online, you
wouldn't have felt the crash at all! And if they were offline, in a
"typical" ship layout, every time you used the main drive you'd have
been on a *wall* instead of a deck. (Major gripe of mine)

As for getting thrown thru it, sure it's *possible*. But consider that
that window has to be *at least* as strong as a jet fighter's canopy
(probably stronger) and he won't *survive* being thrown thru it. That's
why they added a projection to ejection seats to break the canopy
*before* it could mangle the pilot if the canopy release didn't work.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:50:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

In mail you write:

> Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>>Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at 
>>least somewhat alter the balance of power...
>>
>>(Tactical FTL comm, I mean - using a small ship with a telepath to 
>>relay targeting info to a large ship to overcome lightspeed lag and 
>>hit an evading target at long range.)

Ah! But who says telepathy is FTL?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:30:59 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> ObTrav: Do the White House, the Kremlin, or other modern
> landmarks such as the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower
> still exist on Terra, or did the effects of time and war reduce
> these to memories? Are there any canonical references to this
> (or any personal campaign references)? How about Invasion: Earth?
> Or Rats and Cats?

DGP's Digest 13 was an Earth special.  The cover shows the Sphinx
and a pyramid surrounded by green grass and tall trees.  The text
inside mentions that New York  was  covered  by  a  dome  due  to
polution, but the problem has now gone and the  dome  has  become
the New York Historical Museum.  The Sahara has  become  a  giant
automated farm called the Sahara Agricultural Project, except for
a small  area  designated  the  Sahara  Desert  Preserve.  Global
warming has melted the ice  caps  and  raised  sea  level  by  15
meters.  A few densely populated areas are protected by sea walls
... these were attacked during the  Imperial  invasion  but  have
since been rebuilt and the water  pumped  out.  There  are  large
underground cities thousands of feet high,  sometimes  projecting
above the surface of the ocean.  Several hundred  thousand  acres
of eastern Australian coast has been purchased by the Hivers  and
is now a Hiver enclave.  The Nile River valley is flooded due  to
increased sea levels but places of special interest like Giza are
protected by sea walls.  An internal  picture  shows  two  people
standing on what I suspect is a sea  wall,  near  the  Statue  of
Liberty (about level with the head), looking across a bay at  the
New York dome (it is transparent).



Regards PLST

"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly."  -  instructions  on
Kenner Products' Batman costume

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:25:31 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Languages in the 3I

The difficulties in even a common language like Galangic might be so severe
as to result in a situation like you find in Chinese.. Several tongues
sharing an alphabet and written form, but with completely different vocal
patterns.

As an example, I invite all the non-American, non-sports fans to read the
following statement:

"McGuire is only seven away from Maris, but Sosa is coming on strong.  It's
a shame that the A's got rid of Mac, but it could be worse, he could be a
Dodger and burning up the NL West."

Unless you know and follow American baseball, the meaning is lost on you,
yet I've used fairly basic English.  I'm very sure that a similar report on
Cricket or Australian Rules Football would be equally lost on me.

Regionalisms, changing from planet to planet, can make trade and commerce
very difficult.. An old JTAS article (too lazy to look it up at the moment)
had a chart for determining modifiers based on the Starport and TL of each
planet (assuming that A/15 worlds speak near-perfect Galangic.)


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:07:12 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

>pollution), with the Statue of Liberty still there.  A lot of the plot of
>the adventure revolves around the Pyramids of Giza (where a hidden Psionics
>Institute is located within more tunnels in the big pyramid that were later
>discovered with the help of densitometers).  The Eiffel Tower is still

WHAT??  This is embarrassing HOGWASH.  You don't need Trav densitometers to
detect cavities in earth and stone structures.  Archeologists have been doing
it, accurately, since the 1950s using hand-me-down TL4-5 gear.  Sheesh.  So
much for realistic science fiction ;(  I mean, if there were more tunnels and
chambers inside any of the Pyramids, they'd have been found long ago.  I mean,
unless someone... say, someone belonging to a certain monastic-military order
formed in order to invade the Levant and Egypt during the European Middle
Ages, for example... someone like that was keeping 'em a secret.  

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:07:19 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Languages in use

My quick blurt about stuff in this thread;

1) With 1000+ years of Long Night, there's _ample_ time for a monolingual
Solomani colony to undergo enough linguistic divergence that by M:0 or CT
times it has to be considered a multilingual planet.  Languages change all the
time; they don't need "outside influence" to do it, and they can do it real
fast, often for no apparent "reason".  Why?  Not to get all anti-gearish and
luddite on y'all, but language isn't just a tool for transmitting information
bits; it's expressive.  People play with it constantly.  Maybe more than they
use it according to the alleged instruction manual.  And look what happens
when people play with power tools?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  Very messy.

2) By the same token, the idea that Zhodani, Vilani, and all other Ancient-
transplanted human minors are essentially monolingual, or at least don't have
the linguistic diversity of Terran humans, is frankly a GREAT BIG STINKING
LOAD OF -- untenability.  300,000 years of linguistic development and change
on Vland will get you exactly as much diversity as 300,000 years of the same
on Terra has produced.  If non-Solomani humans are relatively more monolingual
_nowadays_, a non-linguistic (in the strict sense) explanation should be
found.  Politics and recent history, namely.  The Zhos are mind-raping
fascists; the Vilani are soulless corporate clones who all go around talking
like they live in a managment seminar; the Geonee engineered their language so
it's absolutely perfect and efficient, damn your eyes; etc.

3) Non-Anglic-speaking Solomani colonies.  Absolutely!  Besides the speakers
of "major" languages besides English who would've contributed heavily to
colonization efforts, I still advocate the existence of the Confederation
Agency for the Preservation of Representative Indigenous Cultural Expression
(CAPRICE), forcibly airlifting (spacelifing? jumplifting?) endangered minority
language communities to "safe havens" offworld during the dark days of the
Interstellar Wars.  (I also very strongly advocate that this agency be made
responsible for having transported Chomsky's frozen head, that priceless
intellectual treasure, to a secret secure storage facility, on Cymbeline.)
Finally, as I think I mentioned before, IMTU the Islands Cluster was
originally settled by different groups advocating one or another artificial
auxiliary language -- Esperanto, Novial, Lojban, Glosa, Interlingua, etc. --
and so Trillion Credit Squadron is merely one more way in which the adaptive
fitness and superiority of these improved, better langauages may be proven.
Because, as we all know, languages and cultures evolve just like organisms,
under the influence of natural selection   :|

4) Multilingualism in the Third Imperium.  IMTU, the Imperium itself (i.e.,
Navy, Scouts, Marines, megacorps, Imperial noble and court business) is
strictly monolingual, in Galanglic.  If you want to Travel(l), you learn
Galanglic; if you want to do business with outsiders on your homeworld, you
pretty much have to do it in Galanglic.  Some of the Vilani-based
megacorporations encourage the use of Vilani, though -- especially at the
senior management levels and above.  Outside of official Imperial and
corporate contexts, though, there _are_ other languages in interstellar use --
mostly Vilani, but maybe other regional (subsector-wide, sector-wide)
vernaculars that interstellar travellers might use to communicate if they
don't want to use Galanglic or Vilani.  So for recruits and draftees into the
Imperial services, part of their "first term skill package" is also functional
fluency in Galanglic, if they don't know it already.

5) Following along from 4), IMTU all the major interstellar states have
official language policies and in most cases, codified, prescriptive language
norms.  Underlying planet-to-planet linguistic diversity is far greater,
except perhaps in the Aslan Hierate, where cultural and linguistic conformity
is explicitly enforced.  I'd expect the Hiver Federation to the on the
opposite pole (most quantitative diversity and qualitative vigor), followed
closely by the Imperium.  The Solomani Confederation seems more interested in
making Rim Anglic the standard language of everyday speech, but also created
Firstspeak to ease interstellar communication.  The Vargr regions of space --
all of the above and everything else, reshuffled once a fortnight.

6) Following from 4) and 5), the reliance on electronic translation equipment
IMTU is probably less than in other TUs, maybe including more canonical ones.
Electronic translation is only needed across species boundaries, essentially,
and even then it isn't necessary: Vargr and humans can communicate effectively
in each other's languages, Aslan and humans as well, but with more difficulty.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #777
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 27 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 778



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: culture question
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Quantifying Incoherence
Deckplan list
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Another look at the Jump Drive (long)
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Linguistic Drift
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:30:05 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

> Well, to start with, if the inertial compensators were online, you
> wouldn't have felt the crash at all!

IIRC inertial compensators are limited to a specific number of G's dependant
on their tech level.  I don't think any of them go past 6 G's.  In a crash,
you decelerate from hundreds of KPH to zero over the course of the length of
your ship (or the depth of the impact crater).  I think this is significantly
greater than 6 G's... At the point that the deceleration exceeds the internal
structure rating of the ship, it crumples up like spagetti... usually this
disables any existing compensation thus aggravating the problem.

Of course, IF your gravitics are working, you would kinda just float there
wouldn't you?

> And if they were offline, in a
> "typical" ship layout, every time you used the main drive you'd have
> been on a *wall* instead of a deck. (Major gripe of mine)

Some ships are designed to have the decks perpendicular to the primary
thrust.  Broadswords are like that and IIRC so is the Azanti.  Ships that
AREN'T designed that way have a different reasoning.  The various trader
ships are intended to land and thus their decks are arranged so that they can
be powered down while on the ground.  Traders also don't have very high
accelerations as a general rule, thus the shifting of cargo isn't such a
problem even without compensation.

>
>
> As for getting thrown thru it, sure it's *possible*. But consider that
> that window has to be *at least* as strong as a jet fighter's canopy
> (probably stronger) and he won't *survive* being thrown thru it. That's
> why they added a projection to ejection seats to break the canopy
> *before* it could mangle the pilot if the canopy release didn't work.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:33:05 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: culture question

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> We have (had actually as I no longer live there...) the same language problems
> in NYC. As an example, the 60th. Precinct (NYCPD) is in Brighton Beach. There
> is a large Russian immigrant population (both ethnic Jewish, and ethnic Slav),
> and a Spanish population (mostly Puerto Rican, and assorted central American
> countries). At the front desk, the poster instructing civilians what to do is
> in English, Spanish, Russian, and Hebrew (maybe Yiddish rather?).
>
> Ob Traveller: How well does Admin work without multi language ability? (I know
> people are SUPPOSED to know Galanglic, however...

  THIS is why my Captain has Liason, multiple languages AND a language translator.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:11:09 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

>Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at
>least somewhat alter the balance of power...

What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:21:27 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Quantifying Incoherence

Here's my stab at a chart like the one from the old JTAS that Doug B. just
mentioned.

Notes:
1) My personal feeling is that quantifying linguistic difference is sticky at
best and moronic on the average.  "Percentiles of mutual intelligibility" as
given below should be interpreted as the ref sees fit -- the term has
absolutely no linguistic meaning.

2) The numbers in the chart are mostly meant to be relative to one anothe; add
or subtract points across the board to suit the degree of cohesiveness of YTU.

3) My assumption was that increased interstellar commerce increases exposure
to Galanglic, as does the presence of Imperial installations (presumably
involving more traffic and off-worlders resident in the system). 

4) 100% intelligibility does not mean 100% identity; the speaker and hearer
dialects are still distinct and noticeably different, but fully mutually
comprehensible without preparation.

5) Listeners with more formal education and who are multilingual have an
easier time understanding unfamiliar dialects, because they have more prior
exposure to linguistic difference and are more likely to have developed
(consciously or not) habits of linguistic self-awareness.  

6) This chart compares only the local version of "Galanglic" to the standard
form used by the Imperial institutions in the region.  If a planet is known
(or decided) to be populated by people who don't speak a language related to
or based on Galanglic, then mutual intelligibility is zero.  (Unless the
listener happens to know some other language that _is_ related to the local
vernacular, of course.)  

7) "Hearer" refers to the off-worlder/PC who's trying to understand what the
shady character/bartender/exotic dancer in the local mudside startown is
saying to him

Comparison of Standard Galanglic to Local/Planetary Galanglic.

TL | Starport  A      B      C      D      E      X
G             100    100     95     --     --     --
F             100    100     90     --     --     --
E             100     95     90     85     75     --
D             100     90     85     85     75     --
C              95     90     85     80     70     --
B              95     85     80     80     70     --
A              90     85     80     75     65     50
9              90     80     75     75     65     45
8              85     80     75     70     60     40
7              85     75     70     70     60     30
6              80     70     65     60     50     30
5              80     70     60     60     50     30
4              --     60     50     50     40     20
3              --     50     45     40     30     10
2              --     --     45     35     20      5
1              --     --     40     30     10      0
0              --     --     --     25      0      0

+10 if Naval base or depot, or sector capital
+5 if Scout base, way station, or subsector cap.
- -10 if Amber Zoned
- -20 if Red Zoned

- -5 if hearer only knows one language
+5 per level of Linguistic skill of hearer
+5 if hearer Edu 8+
+5 if hearer Edu 11+
- -5 if hearer Edu 6-

Obviously, locals need to understand the offworlders too; a hayseed customs
official on a backwater planet might not have the faintest clue what the crew
of the Empress Marava is saying, even if they can understand _him_.

If the hearer is not a fluent speaker of Standard Imperial Galanglic, figure
out what his or her "intelligibility percentage" to S.I.G. is and multiply it
by the local percentage.  For example, Vladimir Smith is a hick from
Bloomfield (B537865-7 S) who speaks Riftian Galanglic with only 85% base
fluency (75% from TL/Starport + 5% from Scout base, plus 5% based on his later
travels and experience).  While waiting in a hotel lobby on Saussure
(B262732-6) between ships, he is approached by a young lady in flowing white
robes.  Saussure's local vernacular is 70% intelligible to those fluent in
S.I.G.; Volodya, however, is an unedjicated lout (monolingual, Edu 5: -10%
ability to understand other dialects) and can only understand (0.85 x
0.7)-0.1, or 49.5%, of what she tells him.  Accordingly, he refuses to get
involved in helping her risk his blubber for the sake of napping children, or
whatever the hell the silly wench is talking about.  Apparently she's a welder
of some sort, because her friends show up to take her back to the metal
installation, and everything turns out okay.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:28:29 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Deckplan list

Okay folks, the first cut of the Greater Traveller Deckplan Index is now up.
This rev is already 85k, so be patient while it downloads...

 Notably absent from this version are the early issues of Challenge. These
will be added within a week. I will also work my way through my vast
collection of Space Gamers before too long...
 This list is JUST printed deckplans. I'm avoiding the Web-only stuff (even my
own) for the moment due to search constraints (as an aside, I'm STILL finding
new sites on occasion. Has anyone considered doing a homegrown webring that
doesn't depend on the usual admin? I've found both the Trav and Gearhead rings
to be cantankerous and difficult to navigate fully).

 Anyone wanting to add to this index need only mail me as detailed yesterday.
Please look at the magazine list at the end first, so you don't duplicate
efforts...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:53:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

>From: dberry@hooked.net
...
>Both being divisions of the Ancient and Excellent Templar Conspiracy.
>Serving you since FNORD.

  That's a very interesting theory, but hardly believable. By way of
disproof, merely consider for example the secrecy issue. If you told
me about said conspiracy and I wasn't supposed to know about it, then
"they" would have to off me if I believed this tripe, wouldn't they?

  Luckily I don't believe any of this claptrap, which would in any case
save "them" the trouble of silencing me if they knew (and they always do)
that I knew - but you probably knew that when you told me, right?

..
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:58:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

Date sent:      	Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:11:09 -0700
From:           	Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>

> >Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at
> >least somewhat alter the balance of power...

> What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?

Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma. The whole thrust of the (apparently 
very promising) research was to develop psi FTL commo on an interstellar 
scale. IIRC the research had already been successful at interplanetry ranges.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Another look at the Jump Drive (long)

The Jump Drive.

Since I joined the TML (oh, three years ago now?), there have been
countless threads on the J-Drive and the pseudo-science behind it.  Rather
than define the physics behind the drive itself, I would like to work on
alternatives on how to use it, and how I use it IMTU.

Let me start with the DMs I use:
Jump Base Roll: 2-
PC interaction:
Successful Navigation roll: -1 *
Successful Engineering roll: -1
Successful Piloting roll: -1
Each missed skill or failure roll: +1
Each spectacular failure: +3
If there was a Spectacular Success and a misjump is rolled, that character
can abort the jump (spotted the condition that causes the misjump and dump
the jump.)

Navigation factors:
Jump Plan:
Generated by shipboard Generate program: +1
Generated by shipboard Generate program w/the aid of a System Book: -2 to
+2
Generated by starport and followed without deviation since last update: -2
Generated by starport, maneuvers made but back on course: -1
Maneuver/Evade active: DM +Evade factor (If Pilot fails task roll)
Sensor Suite:
Running totally blind: +5 
Running passive or degraded (jammed or damaged sensors): +1 *
Commercial/Merchant: 0
Military Standard: -1 *
Scout/Survey: -2 *

Engineering factors:
Ship jumping with 72 hours of previous jump: +1
J-Drive (Discovery TL) driven to max factor: +1
Maintenance (# of jumps since annual maintenance - 20)
if Maintenance < 0 then: DM +0
If Maintenance >0 then: DM (# of Jumps over 20 - Engrng Skill Level of the
most compentant engineer aboard)
Fuel:
Refined: 0
Unrefined: +1

Avionics factors:
Diameters at the time of the jump
On the ground/in the atmosphere: automatic misjump  **
0-5: +10		Task Difficulty: Impossible
6-99: +5		Task Difficulty: Formidable
100-199: 0		Task Difficulty: Average
200-399: -1		Task Difficulty: Average
400-799: -2		Task Difficulty: Easy
> 800: -3		Task Difficulty: Easy

*Does not apply if you are using a Starport generated jump plan or System
Book.
** Roll for jump regardless, if result is 2- ship is destroyed.  Task
Difficulty is Impossible and the DM is +10.

First, let me establish the conventions I use IMTU.  This is not intended
to tout my way as being better than any other way, just to make clear the
assumptions I use in my definition of the Jump process.

JUMP: IMTU
The components of the Jump Drive consists of the power supply, cooling
systems, field generation plant, and control devices that create and
distribute the Jump field.  The Lanthanum Grid, external to the ship,
radiates and shapes the Jump field around the ship.  The Jump Field, to
produce a successful (read that survivable) jump must achieve a extremely
high level of energy initially, which causes the ship to transition into
Jump Sapce.  Then the field strength is permitted to decay until enough of
the energy is successfully bled off into Jump space that the controlled
collapse of the field will result in emergence from Jump Space.  While
enormous amounts of energy are required to make the translation to Jump
Space, the actual energy level on the grid, at any given point, is not
relatively large amount (the key word being relatively).  Much of the
energy is lost in the translation from N-Space to J-Space, and the
remainder is used to create a field around the ship.  When the field
collapses at the end of the jump, that energy must is transmitted back
into the grid and dispersed by the J-Drive.

Because gravitational forces extend into Jump space, the jump field is
very sensitive to gravitational fields in the early and late stages of the
jump.  Trying to form a stable Jump Field deep within a gravity well is
extremely difficult, and can cause a misjump or even catastrophically
collapse the forming Jump Field, overloading the capacity of the Grid and
instantly destroying the ship.  At the destination end of the jump,
however, the gravity well is commonly used to spontaneously precipitate
the ship from Jump Space.  While, in theory, the effect is the same as a
catastrophic collapse, the energy involved that late in the decay of the
field is well within the ability of the grid to handle.

Warning: An extreme gravity field (such as that of a black hole) can
affect a ship even when the field is at its strongest  (in the first 24
hours of the Jump) and can pull a ship out of Jump space by collapsing the
Jump field (the energy backlash would make this a hazardous emergence even
if the proximity to the Black Hole did not).

Once the Jump Drive in engineering has produced the field in the required
frequency, and amplified the power to the desired levels, it is delivered
to the Lanthanum Grid.  Once a powerful enough field is built up around
the ship, it will make the translation to Jump Space.  But creating a
uniform field around the ship only translates the ship into Jump space, it
does not give the ship a vector.  It is the sequence in which various
segments of the Grid are powered up, and to what intensity, that applies
the Jump Vector to the ship - establishes the course through Jump Space.
And finally, when the field begins to collapse, the Jump Drive will absorb
the returning energy and attempt to reshape the field to create normal
space vectors (effectively allowing a ship to appear at rest with respect
to the target planet, even if the originating system had a large relative
velocity) when the ship emerges from Jump Space.  It should be noted that
extremely large vectors (>J-drive factor * .001c) are not possible without
causing damage to the Lanthanum Grid and Jump Drive.

The Jump Field itself has two functions.  One is to facilitate entry into
Jump Space and create a vector for travel, and the other is to maintain a
bubble of pseudo-reality around the ship.  Canon is pretty clear in that
the interaction between Jump Space and our Environment is hazardous to the
extreme.  To prevent this, there is a primary and secondary field
generated from the grid - the Primary Field creates the entry into
Jump-Space and imparts the J-vectors needed to get the ship to the
destination.  The Secondary field is relatively low powered, and is used
to maintain a survivable environment in J-Space.  This bubble consists of
a buffer zone of Hydrogen (H2), created by the controlled release of H2
into the space between the ship and the secondary field.  Any contaminants
introduced into the H2 buffer may cause a slight, uncontrollable change in
the J-Vector of the ship.  

I have broken the components of a Jump into 4 major categories:
  1) PC Intervention - the rolling of the dice, etc...
  2) Navigation, the process of generating the course needed for a
successful jump.  
  3) Engineering, the process of generating the field needed for a
successful jump.
  4) Avionics (not the best term, but it works) - which is basically the
Pilot combining the inputs from Navigation and Engineering to make the
Jump process work.  

PC INTERVENTION
The first step in the Jump process is the Jump plan.  It is pretty simple,
it consists of the destination, the time of departure and the intended
Jump Point.  This is set up prior to any rolling of dice, and once it is
set it is not subject to change without some form of outside influence.
This means that if the PCs set up a Jump Plan for 95 diameters, and
someone fails a roll, they cant decide to run out to 200 diameters to
offset the DM.  Get the idea that this is a process that culminates in the
jump, while it is possible to dump a jump, it will take a spectacular
success roll on the part of a PC to notice something is wrong and abort
the jump.

Currently, the interstellar travel under the Traveller system calls for a
single jump roll.  I always felt that was overly simplistic, and now use
up to 4 - three of which are task rolls from PC/NPC characters acting in
the Pilot, Engineer and Navigator roles.  For each successful task roll, I
allow a -1 DM to the final jump roll.  For each failed task roll, I assign
a +1 DM to the final jump roll.  The task difficulty is determined from
the jump point selected, to reflect the influence that a gravitational
field has on the forming Jump Field.  It should be noted that in my
system, not only does it get progressively more difficult to make jumps as
you progress deeper into a gravity well, but it becomes much easier as you
progress out to the well. (For GMs with detailed system maps, this should
include not only the planets gravity well, but the solar gravity well
too.)  If the Jump Point is within 5 diameters, the task difficulty is
Impossible - this includes jumps from within the atmosphere, although
regardless of the final jump roll, jump originating in an atmosphere will
automatically misjump.  However, if the final Jump Roll is 2-, the ship is
destroyed.  If the Jump Point is from 5 diameters out to 99, the task
difficulty is Formidable.  From 100 out to 199, the task difficulty is
Average.  From 200 out, the task difficulty is Easy.

Where there are not enough crew onboard the ship to fill each critical
skill slot, the missing roll is assumed to be a failure (but not a
Spectacular Failure).   If a PC chooses to try and fulfill more than a
single shipboard role (and that PC must have at least 1 skill level per
role they are trying to fill in order to do so), I allow him to make all
of the die rolls, but he is not able to apply his skill levels to any of
the rolls (simulates him attempting to do two jobs, but not able to
concentrate fully on either.)  

In other words, if Heln (Pilot-3, Engineer-2, Navigation-1) were to act
only as a Pilot, she would be able to apply her full skill level to the
task roll.  If, however, her Engineer jumped ship (due to her penchant for
flying *under* bridges) and she were to take on his duties as well, she
would still be able to roll for the Pilot task and the engineer task, but
she would not be able to apply her skill levels to either roll.  If the
Navigator were to also jump ship, even though she possesses the skill to
set up the jump, she would not be able to attempt to roll for a successful
task resolution, she is not skilled enough to take on the three jobs.  The
Navigation for this jump will have to be set up and run by the automated
systems.

It should be noted that even though using unsupervised automation does not
allow for the same levels of performance that a skilled operator may bring
forth (i.e. a DM of +1), the shortcomings may be overcome in other areas.
If there is no Engineer on your staff, you may offset the DM by not
jumping at the 100 diameter mark, but moving further out to the 200
Diameter mark.  If there is no Navigator, use of a Starport generated Jump
Plan will more than offset that lack.  If there is no Pilot aboard - you
shouldnt be trying to jump!  :) (but I would strongly recommend that you
interface your Maneuver program with the Generate program and hope for the
best.)

The final jump roll should be made by the Captain or Owner of the ship.
This is the jump roll, and should be used to determine success.  A roll
equal to or under the modified Jump Roll indicates a misjump.  In any case
a 2- indicates a misjump.  Normally (as long as there were no exceptional
failures thrown) this would be a failure to initialize the jump field, in
which case a 2-12 hour delay is needed to check systems and reset
controls, after which the jump process can begin anew.  In the cases where
a exceptional failure is thrown, a system failure is indicated, in which
case maintenance of the Jump Drive components associated with the skill
(the J-Drive for engineering, Avionics for Piloting, and Sensors or
Computer for Navigation) is called for - a process that should take 72
hours and is performed by any competent Engineer (skill level 2 or better)
and will cost 3D6 * 1000 credits (I actually double the cost further for
each 6 rolled.)   The one exception allowed to avoid the misjump is if any
of the crew rolls (Engineering, Navigation or Pilot) were exceptional
successes.  In this case, the PC making the roll noted an anomaly in the
process and may, at the PCs option, elect to dump the jump.  In this case,
the Jump drive is never activated, the fuel is never spent.  A new jump
plan will have to be generated, and the process re-initiated from that
point.

NAVIGATION
The effect Navigation has on the Jump process mostly originate from three
factors.  
  1)Where the Jump Plan was originated from.
  2) The Sensor platform used to provide the data for the generation of
the Jump Plan, as well as to maintain course while executing the Plan.
  3) Whether or not any maneuvering, not part of the Jump plan, is
performed.

The Generate program uses system data for computing the Jump plan drawn
from Library Data..  While this is able to generate consistent, mostly
reliable Jump Plans it is limited by the detail of data available from the
Library Data software and augmented by direct input from the ships
sensors.  Navigation data from the Library Data is limited to the area
immediately around the MainWorld, as well as rudimentery information about
the remainder of the system.  Detailed system data must be acquired
separately, either by first hand sensor data, or in the form of a
purchased System Book.

To acquire detailed system data the use of active Scout/Survey sensors are
the most effective means.  Plotting a jump after surveying the system will
allow a DM of -2.  Active military sensors are also designed for this
task, and give a DM of -1.  Active commercial sensors give not advantage,
they are just not sensitive enough to discern the detail necessary to
augment  Jump Plan generation, but do provide the necessary information to
maintain the precise navigation necessary to execute the Jump Plan.  This
cannot compare to the accuracy and detail of the data that is available
from the local Starport, and its constantly updated sensors.  Once we
leave the realm of active sensors, however, we rapidly lose the ability to
gather the data necessary to effectively augment or even correctly execute
the Jump Plan generation.  Attempting to execute a Jump Plan with passive
sensors, or in a heavy sensor jamming environment incurs a DM of +1.
These modifiers can be compensated for using the highly detailed system
data available from a starport generated Jump Plan or System Book,
discussed later in this monograph.  And on the extreme end of the scale,
if for some reason a ship attempts to execute a Jump Plan while running
without sensors incurs a DM of +5.

The Starport can supply a ship with two different forms of assistance.
These would be Jump Plans and System Books.

Class A, B and C starports are able to supply a ship with a pre-generated
Jump Plan.  Most have several different levels of support, the basic being
a plan that is generated on request with a specific start point and time
(usually the starport), requiring specific levels of Thrust, ending with
Jump occurring at a specific jump point at the specified time.  Basic Jump
plans such as these can be had for as little as cr100 at low traffic ports
(Class C), to cr500 at high traffic ports.  A ship travelling under a
pre-generated Jump Plan is generally pre-cleared by the Starport Authority
to lift and exit SPA space in accordance with that Jump Plan.  Generally,
if a variation from the plan is required, or a problem is detected, an
update to the current jump plan can be requested from the SPA for an
additional fee.

The other option are System Books.  These, simply, are specific-use
computers that have detailed data on a system programmed into them.  To
access the data in the System Book, they are plugged into the ships
NavComp via the auxilliary port, and addressed by the NavComp as any other
device.  The data in the System Book is encrypted, and any attemp to
access the data other than via the Navigation program will result in its
erasure.  Generally, System books will come in one of two varieties -
Single Use and Maintained.

A Single Use System Book is obtained from any Class A, B or C starport TL
9+.  It contains the detailed data for the system, but the System book
clock is deliberately mis-timed so as to degrade the value of the data
over a fairly short time.  For the 8 hour period surrounding your target
Jump time, the System Book provides a DM of -2 (same as provided by a
Starport generated Jump Plan).  From 8 hours to 24 hours, it provides a DM
of -1.  From 24 hours to 72 hours, it provides no benefit, but the data is
accurate enough to provide no detriment either.  If a System Book is 72 to
96 hours out (either before or after) its target time, the data provided
will cause a DM of +1 to be incurred, and from 96 to 144 hours a DM of +2.
Past that, the differences in the data supplied from the System Book and
that detectable by sensors will be sufficient to cause the data to be
flagged as corrupted and disregarded.  A system book can be obtained for
cr 1,000, but once obtained for a system it can be reset (and updated) for
cr 500 (same time limits apply).  Additionally, a System Book can be
turned in to a SPA for a cr 300 or credit towards a new System Book for
whatever system the ship may be in.

Maintained System books are very similar to Single Use, with the exception
that the data does not intentionally degrade over time.  These are
intended for ships and/or corporations that do a great deal of business in
the system, and can be expected to need the data for the long term.
Effectively, the data is accurate enough to supply a DM of -2 for one
year, and a DM of -1 for and additional 2 years.  The data will be updated
for free for the first year, and for cr 500 at any time after that.  Cost
is cr 5,000.

The best Jump Plan in the Imperium is useless if the ship does not stick
to it.  If, for any reason, the Pilot elects to override the computer, the
course will be invalidated.  The only exception to this would be if
Maneuver/Evade is operative.  Maneuver/Evade allows the computer to adjust
for Pilot overrides and bring the ship back to course.  However, because
it will be virutally impossible to restore the ship to the exact course
and vectors, a DM of +[Maneuver/Evade factor] is imposed.

ENGINEERING
Successive jumps are hard on people and equipment.  The Lanthinum grid
retains residual energies that must be dissapated either naturally over
time or by some artificial means.  Normally, the grid will have eliminated
enough energy in apprroximately 72 hours as to not affect the next jump.
If it should be necessary to engage the Jump Drive before that time
period, however, you will incur a DM of +1.

Ships that are operating at the extreme energy levels of their drives
and/or grids may not be able to maintain adequate power to both. Because
losing power to the primary grid would cause a catastrophic field
collapse, power may be routed from the secondary grid and cause localized
breeches in the environment field.  While this may be the lesser of two
evils, it is nonetheless extremely hazardous both to the crew and the
ship.  To this end, the environmental field is segmented, with control and
engineering spaces receiving priority power, followed by passenger and
crew spaces, weapon turrets and fuel bunkers, magazine and cargo spaces.

By this, I am describing ships that receive cutting edge J-Drives
(Jump-1/TL-9, Jump-2/TL-B, Jump-3/TL-C, Jump-4/TL-D, Jump-5/TL-E,
Jump-6/TL-F) drives and perform a jump to their maximum capacity  (i.e. a
ship with a TL-14 J-Drive performs a Jump-5.)  To this end, I impose a +1
DM for misjump when using a jump drive built at its originating TL, and
jumping to the maximum factor the drive can sustain.  At the TL+1,
advances in safety, control and power generation nullify this danger.

This does mean that keeping track of the TL of the drive is required, but
since the ship is usually built to a homogenous TL, that information is
usually available already.  Ships receiving upgrades may have to track the
TL of the J-Drive separately, but I do not see this as an onerous burden.

And since we are looking at record keeping, lets examine the maintenance
cycle.  I do not believe that J-Drive maintenance is time related, but
rather it is the use of the J-Drive that stresses it.  After approximately
20 Jumps, the stresses on the drive core and control systems will begin to
show, and while a competent engineer can keep the drive running smoothly
for a while longer, it is time to consider having starport-level
maintenance performed.  

For each Jump past 20, you will incur a DM of +1.  However, you may
subtract from that the skill level of the most competent engineer aboard -
this will not give you a negative DM, if it falls below 0 then you ignore
the result and take a DM of 0.

The use of unrefined fuel does not affect the J-Drive, other than to clog
filters.  However, while H2 released into the Jump Bubble does not affect
the Jump, impurities introduced into the Jump Bubble will cause
uncontrollable variations in the form of the bubble, and also in the
vectors the form creates.  Use of unrefined fuel, thereforre, incurs a DM 
of +1.


This monograph, as with all of my IMTU series, will be posted on my web
site when I return from my road trip.

douglas

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:47:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

>From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
...
>Hmmm ... remember that the orders issued  in  800  to  close  the
>Psionic Institutes were secretly recinded on two  occasions?  The
>Imperium already uses Psi in limited cases.  If assigning a long-
>range telepath to each fleet admiral were  practical  they  would
>have done it by now.  I  also  seem  to  remember  that  Research
>Station Gamma in the Spinward Marches was researching long  range
>psi communications.  Perhaps long-range telepaths  are  extremely
>rare, or maybe they are prone to spoofing by enemy telepaths.  In
>any case if this were  possible,  the  IN  could  do  it  without
>informing the general public.

  There was also a whole bunch about Naval use of psionics in the 
Regency in the RSB. It all struck me as being either terribly 
optimistic or feel-good propaganda; I simply found it unlikely that
the Regency forces could have any significant advantages in overall
psionic capabilities when compared to a large interstellar state that
not only is based on psionics (and has used them for thousands of years)
but also has integral society-wide competitions in those talents.

  "Heck, sir, increase our budget and we can do anything - bend teaspoons,
read tea-leaves, guess your poker hand; I tell ya, we've had scores of
people on this project for decades now!"        <giggle>  <chomp...>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:43:59 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Linguistic Drift

I think there's something missing in the analyzing of linguistic drift
on the list - the stabilizing effects of permanent media.

The only examples we have of long-term linguistic variation are from
Terra. A planet that, until recently, had limited literacy and no media
for preserving how words were said.

Recall the archaeologist in _Star Gate_ realizing he'd been
mispronouncing ancient Egyptian all these years...

The Chinese example, a common written language supporting several
verbally incompatible languages: when written language was developed,
it became consistent - it did not stop developing, but the rate of change
slowed. The verbal languages kept evolving, changing at a higher rate.

Now we have audio recordings. I can hear not only what Herbert Hoover
said, I can hear how he said it. If I want to say "Never have so many
owed so much to so few" just like Winston Churchill did, I just have
to listen, right down to the inflections and accents. 

When the Emperor speaks at Capital, the TNS carries a full-audio
recording to every corner of the Imperium within a year or so - just as
he said it.

Once a culture starts speaking Galactic, it will speak the same sort
of Galactic heard on the science tapes, the news holos, 
the entertainment videos. There will be accents and slang terms,
idioms of local color, but the drift will never be far from the galactic
norm as long as the couriers keep stopping by.

IMO the common language of the Imperium has been standardized
throughout the Realm to within a few degrees of whatever they use on
Capital since before the X-Boat links were up.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:38:07 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> > It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
> > crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
> > through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
> > game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
> > integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?
> 
> Well, to start with, if the inertial compensators were online, you
> wouldn't have felt the crash at all! And if they were offline, in a
> "typical" ship layout, every time you used the main drive you'd have
> been on a *wall* instead of a deck. (Major gripe of mine)

They were on (failing) battery power when they came in.  The compensators went 
down early, and the batteries weren't strong enough to crank the M-drive much, 
just barely gave them some *slight* manuvering thrusters.

> As for getting thrown thru it, sure it's *possible*. But consider that
> that window has to be *at least* as strong as a jet fighter's canopy
> (probably stronger) and he won't *survive* being thrown thru it. That's
> why they added a projection to ejection seats to break the canopy
> *before* it could mangle the pilot if the canopy release didn't work.

The ship was over 70 years old and indifferently maintained for over 5 years.
And no, the co-pilot didn't survive his meeting of the minds with the forward
viewport.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #778
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 27 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 779



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Travellers
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: TL G+
RAFM ship miniatures
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Vilani leaders 
Re: Failed Utopias (longish)
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Leading edge tech
Re: FTL Telepathy (was Re: Leading Edge Tech)
More TNS
Stealth tunnels (was: Burning down the House)
Re: culture question
Gurps Trav
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Annual Maintenance (was re: Wipeout...)
The Moot and dissolving the Imperium
People's Republics
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re-post: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:55:09 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Travellers

> Does anyone remember "The Travellers" from early White Dwarf magazine?

Nope, but I know someone who may have copies of it...

> Regina Control: "Sorry guys, we just found out that a type S scout isn't
> aerodynamic enough for a dead-stick landing."
> Scout ship, already in atmosphere: "Thanks Regina control."

Did they crash?

> Walt Smith

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:59:44 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

> From: dberry@hooked.net
> >> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> >>   Gee, Kenji, you're beginning to look like a backslider - remember
the
> >> official line is that we're not dead, just pining, at least until this
> >> Virus thing is over with...
> >They're just pining to the fjords...
> >>   Brought to you by the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy
> >This message brought to you by the Traveller/Monty Python Conspiracy
> Both being divisions of the Ancient and Excellent Templar Conspiracy.
> Serving you since FNORD.

We are not...

By the way, is this going to be an half hour argument or the full hour
one...

ObTrav...  How many people think that comedy from the late 20 th Century
Earth will be new again to the 3I, or will they have other standards... 
Yes, this is a culture question...  Like would other minor & major races
enjoy or understand Solimani humor from our time...  Or, would they have
other standards...  I can see the Zho as having either no sense of humor or
a twisted sense of humor...  The Viliani would not even understand what we
find funny...

> Douglas E. Berry

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:06:47 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: TL G+

> From: Paul James <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
> Well the Regency sourcebook states that Vincennes has a significant
amount
> of TL17 technology in prototype form and it is imminent to becoming an
> official TL 17 world. I think the main reason so many worlds seem to stop or
> at least slow down greatly at TL 15 is probably due to cost - it states in
> the sourcebook resources were used to bring worlds up to that level rather
> than having a few TL 16 or 17 worlds while most are left behind.
> Unfortunately I couldn't find the page but I do vaguely remember seeing
> something in the sourcebook about the regency not going for TL16 because of
> the difficulties of maintaining a large fleet of mixed TL 15 and TL 16
> ships. I would suspect the current Darrien Patrol Cruisers are kept at
> artificially low numbers to ensure the two TL16 worlds in the regency have
> no problems maintaining those ships. I would expect the next stage of the
> regencys industrial development plans would be to raise the 6 worlds who
> tried to be come TL 16 instead of Mora to TL 16 and allow Vincennes to raise
> to TL 17 (thus providing them with the opportunity to work out the best way
> to raise other worlds to TL 17). Once they have about 8 TL 16 worlds they
> would probably be able to start turning out the maintenance facilities
> required to maintain a TL 16 fleet.

Great theory, but what about the 3I...  I have run them as keeping tech
levels at an artifical level of 15 because if a sector had a TL of 16  they
might beable to fight back vs the 3I...  So the emp. suppressed
technological development...

Works for me..

After the begining of the Civil War, the emp was able to pull out a
butt-load of TL-16 & 17 stuff & won...

> Paul

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:36:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RAFM ship miniatures

  Does anyone know what the nominal scale was for the RAFM licensed
Traveller miniature spaceships was? Please reply to:

        shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:19:18 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

> > It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
> > crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
> > through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
> > game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
> > integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?
> 
 <snip>

>> As for getting thrown thru it, sure it's *possible*. But consider that
>> that window has to be *at least* as strong as a jet fighter's canopy
>> (probably stronger) and he won't *survive* being thrown thru it. That's
>> why they added a projection to ejection seats to break the canopy
>> *before* it could mangle the pilot if the canopy release didn't work.
>

 Considering that bridge windows have been a "point of ingress" to derelict
ships in Traveller since the very beginning,we have to assume that they are
easier to breach than, say, the average hull plate. I would expect the actual
window to break well before it popped out if its frame, however...
 Of course, after the crash the local port's Flight Cert Mechanic would ground
this
ship for a very long, very expensive repair job. ("You 'popped' a window?!?
Not 'broke'.
'Popped'? Sonny, your ship has suffered a catastrophic frame failure. You
ain't getting to Aramis in THAT ship, not this week or next!"). Of course,
this assumes that the ship isn't sitting at the bottom of a very deep ocean
amusing the local fishoids...

>The ship was over 70 years old and indifferently maintained for over 5 years.
>And no, the co-pilot didn't survive his meeting of the minds with the
>forward viewport.
>
>Keven

 IMTU, the second point would be more important than the first. Even one year
of neglect can run a ship through most of its remaining useful lifespan. Five
years and _someone_ walking away to tell the tale is only for characters too
foolish to be killed off  (In the Amber DRPG they refer to it as "Too much Bad
Stuff
to be allowed to die.").

GypsyComet
http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:22:46 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Vilani leaders 

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Andrew thinks
> > 
> > "Now lets see, aboard ship the Shugilii takes on the role of a sort of chaplain or 
> > perhaps morale officer, only with their duties as cook. Now lets think, is their a 
> > science fiction "prototype" for this sort of character?"
> > 
> > Andrew thinks some more
> > 
> > "Arghhh, no, it can not be"
> > 
> > Andrew runs screaming.
> 
> I don't get the reference.

Lucky bastard. Hint: Starship captains with hair that would give a
centauri (B5) an inferiority complex.

ObTraveller: How about the PCs buying a ship where the contract shows that
some of the crew follows the ship and cannot easily be fired? (Hmmm,
nice, we automatically get some people who know the ship. Perhaps things
are beginning to look better? Poor schmucks...)

Steinar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:35:19 +0200 (CEST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Failed Utopias (longish)

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Black ICE wrote:

> [ Outcomes of utopias]
> 
>       e.  [any other devious, yet plausible, outcome]

Some megacorp found the planet to be rich in [insert your favourite rare
stuff in your IMTU]/be at a nice interstellar crossroad/whatever and went
in. The people trying to build the utopia didn't exactly like being run
over, the Imperium/Corporate mercs didn't like people who hindered the
economy. Could result in a nice planet earning loads of money few of the
disenchanted inhabitants ever get a glimpse of.

Steinar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:35:05 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

Kenjomatic@aol.com [Kenji Schwarz] wrote

> > A lot of the plot of
> > the adventure revolves around the Pyramids of Giza (where a hidden 
> > Psionics Institute is located within more tunnels in the big pyramid 
> > that were later discovered with the help of densitometers). 

> WHAT??  This is embarrassing HOGWASH.  You don't need Trav 
> densitometers to detect cavities in earth and stone structures.  
> Archeologists have been doing it, accurately, since the 1950s using 
> hand-me-down TL4-5 gear.  Sheesh.  So much for realistic science 
> fiction ;(  I mean, if there were more tunnels and chambers inside any 
> of the Pyramids, they'd have been found long ago.  I mean, unless 
> someone... say, someone belonging to a certain monastic-military 
> order formed in order to invade the Levant and Egypt during the 
> European Middle Ages, for example... someone like that was keeping 'em 
> a secret.  

So has anyone else noticed that prior to his conquest of Egypt a certain
French Emperor by the initials NB was doing somewhat better at the
conquering the world game then he did after he conquered Egypt. 
Conincidence?  You be the judge....

- -- 
"I have news for NASA.  We're already on planet Earth.  It's the other
places we haven't been to.  It used to be NASA's mission to get us
there." - Charles Krauthammer, the Washington Post, December 6, 1996

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 02:48:56 -0700
From: Robert Biggar Iii <rwb@tc.fluke.com>
Subject: Re: Leading edge tech

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
> Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech
> 
> >Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could 
at
> >least somewhat alter the balance of power...
> 
> What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?
I believe the Empress Wave description leads you to that conclusion 
in Reg. Sourcebook

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 02:00:07 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: FTL Telepathy (was Re: Leading Edge Tech)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> > Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> >
> > >Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could 
> > >at least somewhat alter the balance of power...

> > >(Tactical FTL comm, I mean - using a small ship with a telepath to 
> > >relay targeting info to a large ship to overcome lightspeed lag and 
> > >hit an evading target at long range.)

> Ah! But who says telepathy is FTL?

MT states [Players Manual pg 97] "Psionic activity cost increases with
range.  Psionic ranges are identical to ranges used in combat.  Psionic
range costs are 1 point per range band (Close is 1; Short is 2;
Planetary is 10; Extreme Orbit is 12).  Psionics has proven incapable of
interplanetary ranges.

[Note that the comment that Psionics has proven incapable of
interplanetary range is contradicted by the point costs given elsewhere
in the text.  Consider the case of a Telepath who has just taken a dose
of Psi Special and has Psi 15.  He attempts to use Life Sense [base cost
1 + Range]  He spends all 15 Psionic points he has and can therefore use
his life sense for 14 Range bands.  14 range bands takes you to the end
of the System Range band (1,000 AU's) yet the tables say she could life
sense out to this distance.]

 Psionic activity, at the ranges given is effectively instantaneous and
is not affected by intervening matter in most cases."

Extreme orbit range extends to 5,000,000 km, almost 17 light seconds,
yet the rules [which use 6 second combat rounds] clearly state that it
is effectively instentaneous rather than stating that it is subject to
spped of light lag.  Therefore if _must_ be FTL or the rules would not
call it "effectively instantaneous".  Note also that the rules for task
_duration_ for psionic tasks do not make any mention of task duration
varying with speed of light lag, therefore Psionics must [in MT] indeed
be "effectively instantaneous".

[Alternate view - Whomever wrote this paragraph was not as much of a
rules lawyer as I am, they considered 17 seconds to be effectively
instantateous, and Psionics is subject to spped of light lag]

[On the Gripping Hand - Psionics includes (as a Special in TNE)
Precognition.  Obviously if you can learn about things that have not
even happened yet you are _not_ following speed of light limits,
therefore QED, Psionics is FTL.]

- -- 
"I have news for NASA.  We're already on planet Earth.  It's the other
places we haven't been to.  It used to be NASA's mission to get us
there." - Charles Krauthammer, the Washington Post, December 6, 1996

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:15:35 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: More TNS

Point you're browsers at

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html>

Well the plot most certainly has thickened. If this was Dulinors message, why 
was it pulled "a week or so ago", just how did that happen? So if Dulinor was 
planning to bump Strephon off and this was his "call to arms" just who pulled it?

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:46:40 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Stealth tunnels (was: Burning down the House)

Jenji Schwarz wrote:
> WHAT?? This is embarrassing HOGWASH. You don't need Trav
> densitometers to detect cavities in earth and stone structures.
> Archeologists have been doing it, accurately, since the 1950s
> using hand-me-down TL4-5 gear. Sheesh. So much for realistic
> science fiction ;( I mean, if there were more tunnels and
> chambers inside any of the Pyramids, they'd have been found
> long ago. I mean, unless someone... say, someone belonging to
> a certain monastic-military order formed in order to invade the
> Levant and Egypt during the European Middle Ages, for example
> ... someone like that was keeping 'em a secret.

Hmmm  ...  this  gives  me  a  thought:  Is  is  possible,  using
different materials and shapes, to  construct  a  room  inside  a
mountain or pyramid or other  structure  ...  that  uses  stealth
techniques to defeat detection by pre-densitometer  scanners?  It
seems to  me  that  the  principles  of  scanning  through  other
mediums, like air or water, must be similar.  What does the  list
think?



Regards PLST
"I have a vague memory of something called 'sleep'.  I  think  it
was something I used to do before my employer put me on overnight
callout."






___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:05:00 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: culture question

Sean Nelson writes:

>It was said:
>>Regina wasn't settled until the mid-400s, well into the Third
>>Imperium, so that one is explained easily.
> 
>Oops.  You are, of course, correct.  I guess I should brush up on my 
>Spinward Marches history.

So should the guy you are replying to. Regina was settled in 75. It was
independent of the Imperium until 250 where it joined together with 6
other systems in the same cluster.

>After posting my question I noticed that CT Book 6 "Scouts" mentions the 
>Regina system in detail, explaining that all the planets around the far 
>companion star were named for distinguished Vilani writers.

Interesting. I didn't know that (_Scouts_ is one of the books I lack, alas).
Are there any other interesting historical tidbits in _Scouts_?
 
>I suppose the Vilani strain of Imperial colonialism is there if you look 
>for it.

My theory (and it's only a theory) is that almost all early Imperial
settlement spinwards of the Vargr-infested Corridor was limited and
driven by commercial interests. Not until the latter half of the 300s
does immigration play a major part. But in addition to Imperially
(actually, megacorporate) settlements there are a number of utopians
(people going far away to build their own vision of the ideal society) and
a lot of exiles driven from the interior by the Pacification Wars (Anti-
imperial settlements, so to speak) that runs the Vargr gauntlet and settles
down in some parts of the Marches.

So Regina is propably settled by a group of utopians (75 is just too early
for Pacification War exiles).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:11:45
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Gurps Trav

OK, this sound really stupid but here goes.

I had my hard disk fry, and have lost all my email.

I think I have the Corporations bit of Gurps Trav written for John
Macpherson, and some ideas that should work for the Trade and Commerce
rules (they even kind of integrate).

Unfortunatly, I've lost his email, and am not on the G:T playtest list.

The rules are cool IMO, and include rules for building and running Corps,
and a possible set of rules to extrapolate that favorite Imperial pastime
of inter-corporate warfare (heck, even intra-corporate warfare ...).

Now, if anyone can give me his address, I'd be most grateful.

If anyone else wants to help test them, email me ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:14:35 -0500
From: "Mark Logue" <mark.logue@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

>> >Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at
least somewhat alter the balance of power...

>> What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?

>Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma. The whole thrust of the (apparently
very promising) research was to develop psi FTL commo on an interstellar
scale. IIRC the research had already been successful at interplanetry
ranges.

Also in FFS1 (albeit under "Alternate Technologies") the Psi-Drive uses
Clairvoyance and Teleportation at interstellar distances.

However, Psi would hardly be useful in a naval battle.  Canon references to
electromagnetic fields disrupting Psi abilities (especially Telepathy) are
numerous.  Psi shields, the psi jammer from "Expedition to Zhodane", or just
walking under high power lines will interfere with telepathy.

Just imagine what the EMP pulse from a nuke-det-laser would do.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:38:50 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Annual Maintenance (was re: Wipeout...)

Gypsy Comet wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 IMTU, the second point would be more important than the first. Even one year
of neglect can run a ship through most of its remaining useful lifespan. Five
years and _someone_ walking away to tell the tale is only for characters too
foolish to be killed off  (In the Amber DRPG they refer to it as "Too much Bad
Stuff
to be allowed to die.").
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, this kind of thing is why pirate ships are in such bad shape.
The crew keeps jury-rigging and spot-welding things to keep her
flying long past a scheduled annual maintenance, wearing out
major components until everything gives out at once. Almost
enough to make Scotty cry.

Basically I let a crew do "field expedient annual maintenace" if
they can't get to a class A or B starport. While it resets the
counter for misjump malfunctions, it provides a permanent
increase in chance of system failure and puts wear on things
that are expensive to replace. Do too many field expedient
maintenances, and a ship intended to last 40+++ years will wear
out in ten - or five.

Field expedient annual maintenance is also time-consuming,
difficult, somewhat dangerous, and requires a supply of spare
parts. It's not for the financially sensible or faint of heart.

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:04:20 EDT
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium

jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com said:

>And that, coupled with this, makes the whole thing a whole
>'nuther ball game.  Except that we have _no_ indication that a
>vote ever took place, thus putting us right back in the same old
>game.

Let me put another spin on.
Do you (or does anyone else) think (proxies and all) that enough votes 
are sitting in capital to dissolve the Imperium?  Could citizens wake up 
one day and find the status quo is no more?  Or do you think there would 
be a call for all members of the Moot to come to Capital to cast their 
vote?

Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:59:00 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: People's Republics

David J. Golden types out:
>At 11:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Jens Rydholm, student, non-military and communist
>>    Study harder.  Communism lost.  The only places it's still taken
>>seriously is Peking, Havana, and Cambridge, MA.  :-)
>        What about the People's Republic of Berkely--"eight square miles,
>surrounded by reality."

     I live in the Boston area, so I use Cambridge.  My brother (who works
for Pure Greed & Exploitation in the SF area) uses Berkely.  First time he
came out to the Boston area, I took him to Harvard Square.  I described it
as "like Berkely, but the weather sucks." (it was in February).

    A smaller, but lesser known People Republic is SUNY New Paltz.  Once
known as "The Berkeley of the East."  Here's a hint, it wasn't for it's
academic record.  Ah...senic New Paltz...  I have many fuzzy memorys of the
place.  :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" 
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore 
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the 
Tiananmen massacre 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:05:37 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

Sorry; I was replying to the interupter gear thread. Someone was talking about
gun synchro. pits, and I pointed out that they are not without their own
dangers...

Ob. Trav... I don't know; testing new gear....?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:11:00 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

>> And if they were offline, in a
>> "typical" ship layout, every time you used the main drive you'd have
>> been on a *wall* instead of a deck. (Major gripe of mine)

Agreed. This is another one of those things, like ships whooshing by in
space, that always irritated me in SF. It seems a holdover from ocean-going
ships and makes absolutely no sense.

>Some ships are designed to have the decks perpendicular to the primary
>thrust.  Broadswords are like that and IIRC so is the Azanti.

And I always liked those ships for that reason. I had hoped this would
become the standard in Traveller but alas...

>Ships that
>AREN'T designed that way have a different reasoning.  The various trader
>ships are intended to land and thus their decks are arranged so that they can
>be powered down while on the ground.

So? Why can't a ship with decks perpendicular to their thrust land? Why
couldn't they be powered down? They would land and take off straight up,
like a helicopter. This would take less parkbay area and not need long
landing strips.

Even an airframe ship can have perpendicular thrust and decks, like a
harrier or VTOL. If, for some reason, you absolutely must land and take off
like a glider you can still mount the main engines in the belly of the ship.

>Traders also don't have very high
>accelerations as a general rule, thus the shifting of cargo isn't such a
>problem even without compensation.

This would seem to rule out ships with parallel thrust and deck
orientation. Consider that, in order for a ship with such an orientation to
use its main engines to thrust away from the planet it would have to pivot
90 degrees after takeoff. Cargo on the floor will now be hanging off a
wall. This must be the "different reasoning" they are designed with.

With the thrust and decks perpendicular, there need be no shifting at any
acceleration. Even 6 uncompensated gees wouldn't budge your cargo an inch
(unless it wasn't strong enough to hold together under that acceleration).

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:08:33 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

Mark Logue wrote:

> >> >Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at
> least somewhat alter the balance of power...
>
> >> What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?
>
> >Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma. The whole thrust of the (apparently
> very promising) research was to develop psi FTL commo on an interstellar
> scale. IIRC the research had already been successful at interplanetry
> ranges.
>
> Also in FFS1 (albeit under "Alternate Technologies") the Psi-Drive uses
> Clairvoyance and Teleportation at interstellar distances.
>
> However, Psi would hardly be useful in a naval battle.  Canon references to
> electromagnetic fields disrupting Psi abilities (especially Telepathy) are
> numerous.  Psi shields, the psi jammer from "Expedition to Zhodane", or just
> walking under high power lines will interfere with telepathy.
>
> Just imagine what the EMP pulse from a nuke-det-laser would do.

  Isn't there a tremendous amount of background radiation in space?  IIRC the
rads build up quickly for astronauts.  Thus, wouldn't the very nature of space
interfere with Psi powers?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:16:23 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

I never read that article. Does the dome (NY Hist Museum) cover only Manhattan
Island, or the entire city (Manhattan, Staten Island, Bronx,Brooklyn,Queens),
or is it even larger? (including Long Island, and/or surrounding parts of
Jersey, and NY). If so; that is one HUGE f-- dome.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:25:31 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re-post: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection 

LOST SUPPLEMENTS

After a lot of feedback from various TML members and approval from
Marc Miller, I've decided to release (re-release in the case of LOM)
all five of the J. Andrew Keith manuscripts by New Years in what I
hope most will consider a professional format. 

The three larger supplements - "Letter of Marque," "Scams," and
"Faldor" (all originally intended as boxed modules) will be released
as large adventure type supplements, roughly the size/shape/format as
say DGP's "Flaming Eye". 

The two smaller supplements, "Planetfall Starport" and "Artic
Environment" will be released in their originally intended LLB (Little
Balck Book) format, like "Duneraiders" for example.

All five J. Andrew Keith supplements will be autographed by Andrew as
well as being fully 'gone over' (typeset, proofread, etc.), and
(drumroll please) fully *illustrated* with both 'old' and 'new' (i.e.
previously unpublished) artwork by William H. Keith. All five
supplements (staying true to the chosen format) will also be folded
and stapled with cardstock covers featuring Bill Keith artwork as
well.

OVERVIEW

Below is a simple description of each supplement:

"Letter of Marque" -  First in the "Rogues in Space" series. Set in
Reaver's Deep sector on the fringes of the Imperium, it details
many/most aspects of playing/running pirates in the Traveller
universe.

"Scams" - Second in the "Rogues in Space" series (or, as Andrew wrote
on the manila folder this handwritten manuscript arrived in - "Pigs in
Space"). Also set in Reaver's Deep sector, it fully details
playing/running gangsters in the Traveller universe. 

"Faldor - World of Adventure" - Companion module to both "Tarsus" and
"Beltstrike." Set in the District 268 sub-sector of the Spinward
Marches, this supplement fully details a 'lost colony' world
originally settled by the Darrians. Features several adventures, and
throws additional light on the Darrian, Sword Worlders, Zhodani, and
Imperial intelligence services.

"Starport Planetfall" - Companion supplement to "Startown." Described
by Andrew as "An encounter booklet for Traveller," it details many
aspects of starports and the individuals to be encountered there, as
well as priviously untouched aspects of making planetfall.

"Artic Environment" - Last in the Keith's "Extreme Environment"
series. What's to say - this supplement explores in-depth the aspects
of surviving on Iceworlds ("Tran-ky-ky" anyone?).

EXTRAS

I am working on several 'extras' to include with the supplements. They
are:

"Imperial Calendar" - Will feature the 'best' of Bill Keith's
Traveller artwork, and will be autographed by Bill. Large format, 54 pages.
(Only available when purchasing the entire set.)

"Reaver's Deep" - Sector supplement featuring: Sector and sub-sector
maps with matching UWP's. I am also thinking of including the library
data for this sector, but am not sure yet.

2 Cluebooks - LLB versions of the original loose-leaf and stapled 
cluebooks for both MegaTraveller I & II computer games.

And lastly, the results/winners of the NPC/Starship contest (HINT - I
could use more than two submissions :). Not sure what size/format this
extra will take at the moment - judging by the present results, it
just might end up being a folio. I am thinking of merging this in with the
"Imperial Calendar."

RELEASE DATE

I've set Christmas as my deadline - orders will be shipped on or
before December 31, 1998.

PRE-ORDERS

If you want to pre-order now, then you can, but please understand that
I won't be shipping until the dates mentioned above.

***The cut-off date for orders will be December 15, 1998.***

COST

Set: $100 (US) - All five supplements plus all 'extras.' 
(This price includes both domestic and foreign Surface/Book-class
postage. For those outside the US who want their orders sent
First-class mail, please include an additional $5 dollars.)

Individually:  $20 (US) per supplement plus one 'extra' for each
supplement ordered. (This price includes both domestic and foreign
Surface/Book-class postage. For those outside the US who want their
orders sent First-class mail, please include an additional $2 dollars
per book.)

PAYMENT METHOD

Domestic Orders: Payment can be either check or Money Order.

Foreign Orders: Payment can be by either Bank Draft (in US funds),
International Postal Money Order, or cash (your risk, not mine).

Make checks/money orders payable to:  PAUL SANDERS

Note: I ***can't*** accept credit card orders, so please don't ask.

ADDRESS

Send your payment to:

Paul Sanders
1316 W 2nd Avenue
Apache Junction, AZ 85220
USA

Please include the following in your orders:

***CLEARLY PRINTED*** address listing where you want your order mailed
too.

If ordering individually, please clearly state which supplement(s) you
are ordering.

MISC.

Ok...I think that covers it. If you've any questions and or feedback,
please contact me off the list at: timmon@primenet.com (It might take
me awhile to answer, I'm a bit swamped).

Cordially,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com
Clans MacAlasdair, Comyn, and O'Delany

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #779
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 27 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 780



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Linguistic Drift
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Wildstar's page?
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Re: culture question
re: Wipeout
Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #754
RE: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Linguistic Drift & Quantifying Incohearance
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Re:  Linguistic Drift
re: Linguistic Drift
Re: Expanding starship software (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:24:35 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift

At 01:43 AM 8/27/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Now we have audio recordings. I can hear not only what Herbert Hoover
>said, I can hear how he said it. If I want to say "Never have so many
>owed so much to so few" just like Winston Churchill did, I just have
>to listen, right down to the inflections and accents.

Except that my daily speech is done with a California accent, and my normal
vocabulary is sprinkled with bit of Spanish.  I could do Sir Winston's
speech to Commons, but it would be obvious that I was trying to impersonate
the accent.

Take the American South.  One of the most recognizable accents in the
world.  After living there for a few years I had picked up the accent
(along with the use of "y'all" in daily speech).  Someone from Missouri
trying to do Churchill will sound very odd to me, since I'm filtering it
through two different accents; the speakers own, and the one he's doing.

For amusement, I watch the Prime Minister's Question Time on C-SPAN.  There
are times when I have trouble understanding what some of the members are
saying.  This is a case of a fairly literate son of an Englishman listening
to the (alleged) cream of Great Britain.

- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:36:34 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

> >Ships that
> >AREN'T designed that way have a different reasoning.  The various trader
> >ships are intended to land and thus their decks are arranged so that they can
> >be powered down while on the ground.
>
> So? Why can't a ship with decks perpendicular to their thrust land? Why
> couldn't they be powered down? They would land and take off straight up,
> like a helicopter. This would take less parkbay area and not need long
> landing strips.

They can.  The Broadsword is a classic example.  But Needles and Wedges give you
problems.  A Needle form is six times longer that its width.  That makes it
unstable and likely to fall over in a breeze.  Landing is likewise a problem;
imagine tossing a stick to the ground and hoping it lands perfectly balanced. The
upside to Needles is using it for spinal mounts.

Another inconvenient thing about parallel orientations is that you fly by looking
up. This isn't so innate in ground pounders.  Here on Earth, we move around
perpendicular to gravity and we're used to it.  In space, suddenly, up is forward
which is disorienting.

I think it all boils down to where the ship will be most of the time.  If its in
space, then save on the artificial gravity and make a parallel orientation.  If it
lands often, then use a perpendicular.  Note that thrusters are not used in jump
space thus grav plates are needed for half the time aboard starships.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:24:21 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Wildstar's page?

Anyone know what happened to Derek's QSDS page at
http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/?
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:21:50 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

Sethkimmel wrote:
> I never read that article. Does the dome (NY Hist Museum) cover
> only Manhattan Island, or the entire city (Manhattan, Staten
> Island, Bronx,Brooklyn,Queens), or is it even larger? (including
> Long Island, and/or surrounding parts of Jersey, and NY). If so;
> that is one HUGE f-- dome.

I haven't seen anything that says how big it is ... analysing the
picture: it goes nowhere near the Statue  of  Liberty,  but  does
cover dozens of  skyscrappers!  I  would  guess  it  covers  just
Manhatten (more or less) ... which is still pretty impressive.



Regards PLST

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:25:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Sorry; I was replying to the interupter gear thread. Someone was talking about
> gun synchro. pits, and I pointed out that they are not without their own
> dangers...
> 
> Ob. Trav... I don't know; testing new gear....?

"The Computer has determined, Citizen, that you are cleared level red
for this new wondrous device that R&D has made"

Cut to two techs in bomb suits gingerly bringing a small black box with
a glowing purple rod and one red button sticking out of it. Taking
infinte pains, the place it on the ground and split. You didn't know
humans coulrd run _that_ fast wearing such bulky armor.

"Go find the Commies and use this on them! The Comuputer is your
friend!"



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:40:47 EDT
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: culture question

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:

>Sean Nelson writes:
>>Oops.  You are, of course, correct.  I guess I should brush up on my
>>Spinward Marches history.
>So should the guy you are replying to. Regina was settled in 75. It 
>was independent of the Imperium until 250 where it joined together 
>with 6 other systems in the same cluster.

We both stand corrected.

>>After posting my question I noticed that CT Book 6 "Scouts" mentions 
>>the Regina system in detail, explaining that all the planets around 
>>the far companion star were named for distinguished Vilani writers.
>Interesting. I didn't know that (_Scouts_ is one of the books I lack, 
>alas). Are there any other interesting historical tidbits in >Scouts_?

Not really (although I don't have the book in front of me).
It uses Terra and Regina as examples of a detailed system description.
It mentions that Regina (a moon orbiting a gas giant orbiting a primary 
and close companion) was named after St. Regina, and the planets 
orbiting the far companion (most or all inhospitable I believe)named for 
the Vilani writers.

All in all they are really more like footnotes in an example than any 
source for cultural information.

As I mentioned, I don't have it with me right now.  If I find anything 
else I'll pass it along.

>My theory (and it's only a theory) is that almost all early Imperial
>settlement spinwards of the Vargr-infested Corridor was limited and
>driven by commercial interests. Not until the latter half of the 300s
>does immigration play a major part. But in addition to Imperially
>(actually, megacorporate) settlements there are a number of utopians
>(people going far away to build their own vision of the ideal >society) 
and a lot of exiles driven from the interior by the >Pacification Wars 
(Anti-imperial settlements, so to speak) that runs >the Vargr gauntlet 
and settles down in some parts of the Marches.

>So Regina is propably settled by a group of utopians (75 is just too 
>early for Pacification War exiles).

Sounds good to me.

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:44:01 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Wipeout

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Traders also don't have very high
>accelerations as a general rule, thus the shifting of cargo isn't such a
>problem even without compensation.

This would seem to rule out ships with parallel thrust and deck
orientation. Consider that, in order for a ship with such an orientation to
use its main engines to thrust away from the planet it would have to pivot
90 degrees after takeoff. Cargo on the floor will now be hanging off a
wall. This must be the "different reasoning" they are designed with.

With the thrust and decks perpendicular, there need be no shifting at any
acceleration. Even 6 uncompensated gees wouldn't budge your cargo an inch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
What's happening here is the ships with decks perpendicular to main
engine thrust were designed by people who think of contragrav and
intertial compensators as standard safety features, so reliable that
it's OK to have a ship that's unusable when they're offline.

We've got some examples of assumptions like this today. How many
airliners are equipped with high-altitude emergency escape
capabilities? We've got the technology, but we don't see the need.

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:51:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech (was re: Synchronized Machineguns)

>Ah! But who says telepathy is FTL?
Research Station Gamme, among the old sources. The Regency Sourcebook, 
among TNE sources. (Sometimes I forget that Leonard hasn't bought  a new
Traveller product since 1953...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:53:45 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

>Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma. The whole thrust of the (apparently
>very promising) research was to develop psi FTL commo on an interstellar
>scale. IIRC the research had already been successful at interplanetry ranges.

Although one does have to assume that the text is wrong in that it implies
that the Lone Crazed Imperial Scientist at RSG is very close to interstellar
FTL psionics - if it were that easy, the Consulate would have made it work
long ago.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:02:55 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

>However, Psi would hardly be useful in a naval battle.  Canon references to
>electromagnetic fields disrupting Psi abilities (especially Telepathy) are
>numerous.  Psi shields, the psi jammer from "Expedition to Zhodane", or just
>walking under high power lines will interfere with telepathy.

My impression was not that any random EMF disrupts telepathy but that only
specifically-designed ones of some particular intensity/frequency/etc. do 
so; walking under a power line doesn't disrupt telepathy but a psi shield
does.

Still, even if it is susceptible to random interference one could design a 
ship to minimize such interference (I have a vague recollection of a 
"Games Workshop" (or some other british house) zhodani frigate design with a 
long boom and pod for the carried psionic adept. I wasn't suggesting 
having telepaths read enemies minds - just relay targeting data between
friendly ships. Should work fine. Maybe an EMP from a close (100 km) detlaser
detonation would briefly interfere, but if a small ship gets hit by a laser
missile that's the least of its worries.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:27:35 +0200
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #754

Does anybody know if there is anything published (or non-official info) on the
Malorn sector (next the Aldebaran sector, spinward)? Could this wise person
point me towards it?

I guess somewhere/someone has to be responsible of the name, at least.

I'm interested in developing a sector (which may be will be included in
galactic, it depends on Jim V.) which has the least background possible (so
i'm more free), and being a newbie (in TNE) i don't have the tons and tons :)
of official and non-official material about sectors.

Also, if there has been writen something about Malorn, could someone give me
the coordinates of some (i guess far from Earth) uncharted region (i.e. without
the star systems)?

Thank you.

Guillem P.G.
Newbie at Traveller, older than Yoda at mastering RPGs    :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:35:01 -0600
From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Wipeout or I can land it

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	shadow@krypton.rain.com [SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, August 26, 1998 4:43 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Wipeout or I can land it
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> >
> >> > > Funny you should mention that.  One of my players is just about
> 
> >> > > to ditch a 300 ton armoured merchant into an ocean in my PBEM...
> >> > 
> >> > Oh, sure! Blame it on me! Not the owner that hasn't done maintinence
> >> > in _years_! <g>
> >> 
> >> Ah, but Terry, 'ditch' means an attempt at a *controlled* crash.
> >
> > It was a wild ride. That brings up a question for the list. In said
> > crash, when we impacted the water, it sent my co-pilot crashing
> > through the view window in front. I certainly can accept that in the
> > game but how tough would those things have to be for structural
> > integrety? Could a person and console be thrown through one?
> 
> Well, to start with, if the inertial compensators were online, you
> wouldn't have felt the crash at all! And if they were offline, in a
> "typical" ship layout, every time you used the main drive you'd have
> been on a *wall* instead of a deck. (Major gripe of mine)
> 
> As for getting thrown thru it, sure it's *possible*. But consider that
> that window has to be *at least* as strong as a jet fighter's canopy
> (probably stronger) and he won't *survive* being thrown thru it.
> That's
> why they added a projection to ejection seats to break the canopy
> *before* it could mangle the pilot if the canopy release didn't work.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:22:57 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift & Quantifying Incohearance

>Recall the archaeologist in _Star Gate_ realizing he'd been
>mispronouncing ancient Egyptian all these years...
That's actually because the Egyptians (like the Hebrews) didn't write down
the vowels. The scholarly convention is, basically, to always use "a" as
the vowel. This is just for convienence, though, so they don't have to try
to juggle collections of consonants in their technical speech. If you note,
in the film when challange about saying he couldn't speak it he says "Once
I learned what vowels to use...".

What I use in the various campaigns to simulate only partial understanding
between characters and NPCs is syllables. If they barely know a language I
say they can speak to people only in words on one syllable. If they know
something of it, I let them use up to two syllables. This isn't perfect,
they've been able to come up with some rather complex statements using
words of only two syllables, but it suffices for game purposes.

For written material, well I do a number of things. Most often I will use
an odd font, and print the material in that. If they players want to spend
loads of time working out the correct substitution cypher to translate the
message, I'm happy to assume the characters have spent an equally tedious
time translating it. Otherwise as they get clues, I print bits in
plaintext. Or, if they hire an expert, they may be able to work out some of
the characters (Would you like to buy a vowel?). In another circumstance,
one player had knowledge of a related language so I printed, in clear text,
the first 5 letters of every word (simulating the roots being similar, but
the endings being different).

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:24:18 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

An agent for Peter Newman wrote:

>So has anyone else noticed that prior to his conquest of Egypt a certain
>French Emperor by the initials NB was doing somewhat better at the
>conquering the world game then he did after he conquered Egypt. 
>Conincidence?  You be the judge....

<gasp>  N.B.!  Norris-Bzrk!  The Archdukes on either end of the Longbow
Project!  What a _convenient_ little coincidence.  Oh yes.  

Furthermore, N was the 13th letter of the old Anglic alphabet.  1+3=4; which,
I hope we all rembember, is signficant.  B was the 2nd letter: 1+3+2=6, which
is the Number of the Great Old One's Great-Grandchildren.

The infamous 'Talking Head' of the Templars was obviously recovered not from a
site in the Empty Quarter of Arabia by Hiver archeologists, but from the
glovebox in the Sphinx.  If you listen to songs by the '80s pop group of the
same name, backwards, you can find independent scientific confirmation of this
fact.

Furthemore, I would like to point out that the alleged "decipherer" of the
Egyptian hieroglyphic script (itself a bastardized version of Hiver (Sign))
was, like most of the French intelligencia of the 18th and 19th centuries, the
merest pawn in an intertemporal Sayat-Vilani struggle.  And _why_ did the
Hiver M. Rosetta arrange for Champollion to receive a personal (Sign)-French
translator module?  Eh?  And why did another cell of French agents arrange for
a pair of giant metal edifices -- one eerily prefiguring the doyenne of the
Empress Wave, the other ominously functional in appearance -- to be erected at
a carefully selected locations on Terra?

But more alarming even than that -- what pressing need did the Templars have
to make them build a dome over Manhattan?  What sinister machinations do they
need to protect in that secretive, mysterious, ancient metropolis?

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:03:07 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

At 03:19 AM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
> Considering that bridge windows have been a "point of ingress" to derelict
>ships in Traveller since the very beginning,we have to assume that they are

	Which is why IMTU anything beyond about TL8 or 9 doesn't HAVE "bridge
windows." It's all viewscreens, which also allows me to (a) put the bridge
in the center of the ship, the most protected location (b) run sensor
fusion (you're not seeing anything that would be visible, it's a composite
of the full sensor capability of the ship, computer enhanced and
augmented), (c) ignore pesky things like deck orientation vs thrust
orientation, and (d) keep those pesky adventurers from prying out my
windscreens!

	The Mk I eyeball isn't all that useful except for VFR landings, close
approach/dockings, and low-altitude traffic avoidance.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:51:02 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

At 20:11 26/08/98 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:
>>Tactical FTL through psionics is probably another thing that could at
>>least somewhat alter the balance of power...
>
>What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?

TNE gives pretty good (IMO) evidence that telepathy (anyway) is not FTL, in
that it says that telepathy is the reading of a mind's electromagnetic
patterns. As electromagnetic signals move at lightspeed, I assume that
telepathy will also be at lightspeed. Personally I rule that teleportation
is FTL, because IMTU it sort of 'skims' Jump space to give a micro jump
that sends scientists wild by violating the jump=1 week rule.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:23:15 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:23:15 -0400, "Sean Nelson"
<sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com> wrote:

>jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com said:

>>And that, coupled with this, makes the whole thing a whole
>>'nuther ball game.  Except that we have _no_ indication that a
>>vote ever took place, thus putting us right back in the same old
>>game.

>Let me put another spin on.
>Do you (or does anyone else) think (proxies and all) that enough votes 
>are sitting in capital to dissolve the Imperium?  Could citizens wake up 
>one day and find the status quo is no more?  Or do you think there would 
>be a call for all members of the Moot to come to Capital to cast their 
>vote?

There _are_ probably enough votes sitting in Capital to dissolve
the Imperium - but I expect that you'd need near-unanimity of the
sitting votes to do it.  That's unlikely to happen unless there's
a _really_ egregious situation that can't be fixed by even
massive tweaking.  However, for a vote of such moment, I would
expect that, even if there were sufficient proxies available, a
call _would_ go out - on something like that, you don't want to
assume that the proxies you hold are necessarily going to agree
with your personal opinion.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:39:23 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>"The Computer has determined, Citizen, that you are cleared level red
>for this new wondrous device that R&D has made"

NOW I remember what the other, lingering, subconscious influence on my writeup
of the Sayat was.

>"Go find the Commies and use this on them! The Comuputer is your
>friend!"

... except sorta backwards.  Naturally.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:39:31 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Linguistic Drift

Walt Smith wrote:

>I think there's something missing in the analyzing of linguistic drift
>on the list - the stabilizing effects of permanent media.

I had actually considered that in preparing the chart and so forth -- that's
the only reason those "intelligibility percentiles" were so high, by my
reckoning.  Below for why...

>The only examples we have of long-term linguistic variation are from
>Terra. A planet that, until recently, had limited literacy and no media
>for preserving how words were said.

Er... every writing system on the planet that we can understand represents
phonological data about the language(s) it records.  Some more than others;
but I do take your point as it was intended, I think.

>Recall the archaeologist in _Star Gate_ realizing he'd been
>mispronouncing ancient Egyptian all these years...

More sloppy pop archeology ;(  Any Egyptologist _knows_ that they're
_definitely_ "mispronouncing" Egyptian.  Even Coptic pronunciation is
debatable on a lot of points <G>  

>Now we have audio recordings. I can hear not only what Herbert Hoover
>said, I can hear how he said it. If I want to say "Never have so many
>owed so much to so few" just like Winston Churchill did, I just have
>to listen, right down to the inflections and accents. 
>
>When the Emperor speaks at Capital, the TNS carries a full-audio
>recording to every corner of the Imperium within a year or so - just as
>he said it.
>
>Once a culture starts speaking Galactic, it will speak the same sort
>of Galactic heard on the science tapes, the news holos, 
>the entertainment videos. There will be accents and slang terms,
>idioms of local color, but the drift will never be far from the galactic
>norm as long as the couriers keep stopping by.

This is all possible through audio recording and mass communications, but it
isn't made necessary by it.  The situation you propose presupposes that
everyone in the Imperium will _want_ to model their own speech after that of
offworld political/entertainment media figures.  This is IMO a huge and
unwarranted assumption to make.  It represents the general trend we've seen in
the development of modern nation-states, particularly after WWI.  Like you
mention, a particular, historically specific set of related examples.
However, it is not at all the pattern found in many or most "old-fashioned"
patrimonial empires, whether you're talking about the Austro-Hungarian or
British empires, imperial China, Romanov Russia, pre-colonial Java, etc.  

In societies with this general type of political structure -- which I see as a
much better model of the Third Imperium than 20th century "nations" --
differential language and dialect use was one of the key elements in
expressing, protecting, and creating class difference.  A peasant in the Pearl
River delta who tried speaking guanhua to his  landlord from the capital
wasn't expressing solidarity; he was being insolent.  Petty London clerks and
shopkeepers who tried imitating the accents of the educated classes were
merely getting ideas above their station.  Russian nobility preferred French
over Russian, symbolically separating themselves from their subjects and
affiliating themselves with a culture that was "foreign" from a petty-
bourgeois nationalistic perspective, but more prestigious and suitable from
the perspective of aristocratic power.  Why would Imperial nobles tolerate
silly little provinicials on low-tech mudballs aping their betters?  Much less
advocate this?

On a popular level, in situations where you do have some form of incipient
ethnicism or nationalism, mass media and audio communications often has merely
heightened the sense of difference and separation.  Promulgation of
standardized languages catalyzes awareness of regional distinctiveness; there
has to be some element in addition to mass media per se which overcomes this
and makes people think "we sure don't talk like that around here, but really
should" instead of "sheesh, listen to those funny-sounding foreigners squack
on about how we're all one family, one nation..."

The technology of mass communications, even just in printed form, reifies
language to a larger degree and to a wider base of people than previously
possible.  People become aware of it as a _thing_.  Things can be manipulated
and changed.  In the last fifty years, we've seen 1) terminology in East and
West Germany drift apart in only a few decades, likewise between the PRC and
Taiwan; 2) the creation of Bahasa Indonesia as the language of public affairs
in post-independence Indonesia, and the intentional separation of it from
Malay which it is originally based on; 3) the continuing effort to separate
Croatian and Serbian languages from one another after the breakup of
Yugoslavia, in the effort to make them into independent, "pure" languages not
so obviously related to one another; 4) revivals and revitalizations of
moribund or completely dead languages and regional speech forms (pick
convenient W. European example of your choice).  The great Ebonics flap from a
few years back was part of this phenomenon: in the face of mass media and
aural communication promulgating a single standard/correct form of the
vernacular, a non-standard form can be counter-promulgated using exactly the
same technology.

This is why I think the 3I is diglossic _at best_, if not thoroughly
multilingual.  Code-switching is a great way of managing multiple layers of
identity and allegiance with a minimum of conflict.  The 'feudal' political
structure of the Imperium pretty much demands that sort of management, IMO.

But now... now I must go and get packing.  Cambridge MA, and the
Comintern^h^h^h^h^h^h school await me.

This message has been brought to you from the Stamp Out Yanks In Space
Collective.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:42:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Linguistic Drift

Kenjy wrote some interesting things I hadn't thought of, on use of
language as a deliberate attempt to preserve identity.

Karoghlian Nobles demanding that their peasantry speak only
Low Karogish, as it would be "uppity" for a peasant to learn
Galactic? They've just set their planet back several tech levels.
Of course, the nobles may not mind at all - after all, they'll still get
to play with high-tech imported toys. If their subjects started using
Galactic, their subjects might start talking to the traders themselves.
They might learn how other peasants string up opressive overlords,
things like that. Especially if such a revolution means the nearest
megacorp can start selling piles of (Galactic language) video tapes
to the new rulers of Karoglia.

(Mine, mine, mine that list for scenario ideas.... <g>)

Which world is more likely to develop a culture with a strong
sense of identity, resistant to Imperial culture - a small, poor
world where people take pride in surviving, or a rich world that
dominates it's local cluster?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:36:22 -0400
From: Douglas Glatz <douglasg@pogo.WV.TEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software (fwd)

Richard wrote:

> [snippage of interesting material - I'll have to give it some thought]
> >ANTI-HIJACK
> >Anti-Hijack is used to augment shipboard security against possible hostile
> >takeover.
>
> Ah yes, the infamous anti-hijack program, in my experience the most abused
> software in the game. I remember back in high school arguing with a GM that
> had the anti-hijack program able to virtually take over the entire ship.
> This was long before Virus.
>
> >In its basic form it provides:
> >- - Access control to critical portions of the ship.  A basic installation
> >would consist of a keypad on critical areas requiring a PIN for access.
> >More advanced installations could consist of a card reader, hand- or
> >finger- print scanner, retina scanner, DNA scanner, voice or ultimately
> >optical recognition.
>
> Remember that Anti-Hijack is a computer program. Software. It does not
> allow the computer to grow new hardware that is not already installed. A
> computer must already be able to identify authorized users in order to
> function, and things like control consoles, airlocks, and weapon lockers
> had better already have security hardware in place to prevent unauthorized
> use or vandalism. IMHO, things like this are standard construction and not
> part of a separate computer program.

One of the things I like least about Traveller starships is that there is no
avenue for upgrading anything but the weapons in the turrets.  I disagree with
it, and have been trying to generate rules for it for a couple of years now.

This section of the software descriptions reflects that belief.  Yes, you can
add new hardware to the ship's internal defenses, and then the software must be
upgraded to be able to access the new hardware.  (or vica-versa - I can see
someone buying a A/H package that controls the release of gas, then having to
upgrade the ship's hardware to utilize the function.)

> >In its more advanced forms, the following upgrades are available:
> >- - Addition of lethal and non-lethal defense systems to the interior of the
> >ship.
> >- - Automated release of lethal and non-lethal defensive measures when
> >specific threshholds are exceeded.
>
> Let me get this straight; you are installing weapons specifically designed
> to *kill the ship's occupants*? Wow, hijackers must love this one... You
> don a filter suit, do something to trigger the anti-hijack program, and the
> ship obligingly gasses the entire crew. Cute. Or are there separate defense
> and control systems for different areas of the ship? Since by necessity
> data paths for these systems must be spread throughout the ship, you just
> need to hack into communications to kill the captain, gas engineering, and
> hold passengers for ransom. You might even be able to do it remotely...
> Virus for real!

I think it makes a lot of sense to have these capabilities in the cargo and
'tween deck areas.  For some ships, accesses to critical portions of the ship
(outside the hatches to engineering and the bridge, for example) may also be
covered.  I don't forsee indiscriminate usage.

Remember, the ship's computers are linked into *everything* in every incarnation
of Traveller except TNE - that is the only timeline where the utter dependance
on the AI systems becomes suspect...well, and the Kinuir adventure!  ;)

> Seriously, most legal systems ban lethal traps on the principle that life
> is more important than property. And "automated defensive measures" are
> already banned by the Shudusham Concord and illegal in the Third Imperium.

As I understnad the Concord, automated defenses are not banned, just defenses
where the AI is permitted to decide at what level those defenses are prosecuted
at.  Anti-Hijack uses a decision tree created by a sophont security specialist,
and those areas where lethal force would be used should be clearly marked.

> IMTU, such defense systems are found only in bad holovids.

I'm afraid I must disagree.  With the Ship's Computer able to interface with all
systems, including the floor plates (grav), inertial compensation, and
ultimately, life support, the A/H has a variety of lethal responses that can be
utilized if properly programmed (or worse, improperly programmed.)  If you
primarily operate in a TNE universe, then I can see where this may not apply to
your campaign - but there are legacy starships.

> >- - Addition of sophisticated data, optical and audio sensors around the
> >interior of the ship to increase the level of data acquired by the
> >software.
> >- - Remote, mobile units to increase the detection/response level.
>
> Interesting idea but, again, not software.

If the software doesn't anticipate the hardware, what use will it be?

> I don't want to be a wet blanket, but with players who are computer
> professionals this kind of stuff came up early in my campaign. The way I
> handle computer programs is with a list of "features", which are available
> depending on the tech level, level of automation, and subsystems (like
> MFDs, jump drives, weapon batteries, et al) connected to the computer. I do
> have anti-hijack programs in my campaign. Features I have defined already
> for this program are:
>
> [snippage of more really cool material, that I wish had be published on the
> TML or on the web ealier...]


douglas

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #780
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 781



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marc Miller's T4
HIWG CD
Re: FTL Telepathy (was Re: Leading Edge Tech)
IISS Ship Files
Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
QSDS: The software
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:48:44 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4

At 12:19 AM 5/21/98 -0500, Rupert wrote:
...
>>Unfortunatly, SOK is folding and all their properties, including the
>>Shadowrun, Earthdawn and Traveller mags are in limbo. I know that both the
>>Shadowrun and ED editors are trying to buy the rights to put out the
>>magazine itself. I do not know the status of the Traveller Chronicle.
>...

Well, it's been a few months - any further word from anybody about the
future of the Traveller Chronicle?



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:49:49 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: HIWG CD

My CD arrived yesterday.  One word suffices to describe it:  WOW!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:21:34 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: FTL Telepathy (was Re: Leading Edge Tech)

Peter Newman wrote:

> MT states [Players Manual pg 97] "Psionic activity cost increases with
> range.  Psionic ranges are identical to ranges used in combat.  Psionic
> range costs are 1 point per range band (Close is 1; Short is 2;
> Planetary is 10; Extreme Orbit is 12).  Psionics has proven incapable of
> interplanetary ranges.

Thats as may be.  But I spun it a different way, in a plot for my players
that never came about.  I had a secret society, naturally, of evil but
powerful people, secretly enslaving psionic sensitive people.  They were
behind the promotion and tolerance of psionics in order to produce a larger
pool of psionically enabled people.  From these, telepaths were given
rigorous and often deadly tests.  For those with the greatest strength and
telepathic aptitude, an unforunate future awaited.  Not death, but something
worse.  The brains of these psionics would be removed from their bodies (and
the bodies destroyed).  All vestiges of personality and memory to be wiped
out.
The brain, however, would be preserved and through the use of experiimental
psi-drugs, bio-cybernetic hardware, etc., the brains would be used as
conduit for FTL communications.  Of course, you need another brain on the
other end.  With psi-strengths radically increased, FLT communications a
parsec in distance could be achieved.  Or at least it was hoped.

I never decided whether the experiments would be successful in any permanent
way, but just that it worked at least a few times, justifying in the minds
of the evil guys, even greater excesses.

I basically stole the germ of this idea from Simon Green's Deathstalker
books, in which Psi-Shields are made from the brains of psionicists.  Then I
changed it from psi-shieds to communications.  I suppose you could
extrapolate it to teleportation as well.  But I didn't think my evil guys
would waste a good teleporter.  Teleporters get brainwashed and made into
shock troops, like those Zhodani 'porters discussed recently on TML.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:35:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IISS Ship Files

>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech
...
>Still, even if it is susceptible to random interference one could design a 
>ship to minimize such interference (I have a vague recollection of a 
>"Games Workshop" (or some other british house) zhodani frigate design with a 
>long boom and pod for the carried psionic adept. I wasn't suggesting 
>having telepaths read enemies minds - just relay targeting data between
>friendly ships. Should work fine. Maybe an EMP from a close (100 km) detlaser
>detonation would briefly interfere, but if a small ship gets hit by a laser
>missile that's the least of its worries.

  "Tiaflfiet IV" Patrol Frigate. Basically a gimmick for the GM, and not
really consistent with AM 4 (IIRC, you _can't_ generate non-psionic nobles
or intendants, so all 7 of the officers must be psykers - oops, wrong game).

  Basically the IISS is guessing, and the analyst doing so is unfamiliar with
the true nature of Zho society or the Thought Police ("prevent...defection 
when beyond Zhodani space" - what? - in that zoo of sociopaths?)

  "(a psionicist is) unusual for a non-capital ship...". Yeah, right. OTOH,
these are back in the days when GW did really interesting SF stuff, for which
Mr. Slack (among others) are to be thanked.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:29:42 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.

I was catching up on some posts. specifically the Leading Edge tech discussion
about psionics, and came to this conclusion:

There is too much canon, too widely spread.

I'm not trying to start a flame war.
Neither am I canon-bashing.
I am canon-deficient.

There is so much canon out there, but so little of it is readily available.
I, for example, have T4, some CT (and some MT en route).  Thats it.

What I need, and others I'm guessing, is a Canon Bible.
The Gospel of Traveller.

So preach on, preach on.

But perhaps we need to set some Traveller monks on the task of compiling and
archiving canon for the new Travellers that are sure to follow.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:17:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

>ObTrav...  How many people think that comedy from the late 20 th Century
>Earth will be new again to the 3I,

  Jerry Lewis revivals?

        (hrm, perhaps literally with the right tech...)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:26:50 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote

> > Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma. The whole thrust of the 
> > (apparentlyvery promising) research was to develop psi FTL commo on 
> > an interstellar scale. IIRC the research had already been successful at interplanetry ranges.

> Although one does have to assume that the text is wrong in that it > implies that the Lone Crazed Imperial Scientist at RSG is very close
> to interstellar FTL psionics - if it were that easy, the Consulate 
> would have made it work long ago.

You seem to be forgetting that the Imperium is the Good Guys (Registered
Trademark) while the Zhodhani (dirty stinking Zho's) are the _Bad_ Guys
(Registered Trademark).  Obviously just because the Good Guys can
discover something does not mean that the Bad Guys can discover it. 
Haven't you seen any movies made in the 1950's  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:35:43 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> >ObTrav...  How many people think that comedy from the late 20 th Century
> >Earth will be new again to the 3I,
>   Jerry Lewis revivals?
> 
>         (hrm, perhaps literally with the right tech...)

Maybe...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:13:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> My CD arrived yesterday.  One word suffices to describe it:  WOW!

What is on the CD?

Where can it be ordered?

How much does it cost?

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:23:34 -0700
From: "Dean A.Cook" <wolv@powernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

Sorry but you are wrong. The Safari ship HAS bridge windows.
- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it


>At 03:19 AM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>> Considering that bridge windows have been a "point of ingress" to derelict
>>ships in Traveller since the very beginning,we have to assume that they are
>
> Which is why IMTU anything beyond about TL8 or 9 doesn't HAVE "bridge
>windows." It's all viewscreens, which also allows me to (a) put the bridge
>in the center of the ship, the most protected location (b) run sensor
>fusion (you're not seeing anything that would be visible, it's a composite
>of the full sensor capability of the ship, computer enhanced and
>augmented), (c) ignore pesky things like deck orientation vs thrust
>orientation, and (d) keep those pesky adventurers from prying out my
>windscreens!
>
> The Mk I eyeball isn't all that useful except for VFR landings, close
>approach/dockings, and low-altitude traffic avoidance.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:31:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

In mail you write:

> ObTrav...  How many people think that comedy from the late 20 th Century
> Earth will be new again to the 3I, or will they have other standards... 
> Yes, this is a culture question...  Like would other minor & major races
> enjoy or understand Solimani humor from our time...  Or, would they have
> other standards...  I can see the Zho as having either no sense of humor or
> a twisted sense of humor...  The Viliani would not even understand what we
> find funny...

As I recall, the humor in Greek comedies is still understood. And their
culture was quite different, and 1500-2000 years from ours. I seem to
recall that jokes have been found written in hieroglyphics in ancient
Egyptian sites, and that they are understandable. I'm not sure if
they've found any Sumerian humor. But I suspect that the humor would be
understandable, it'd just be the cultural references that would be
different. And the context of the joke will tell you which "ethnic
group" is supposed to have what characteristic. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:55:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

In mail you write:

>>> Ships that AREN'T designed that way have a different reasoning.
>>> The various trader ships are intended to land and thus their decks
>>> are arranged so that they can be powered down while on the ground.

>> So? Why can't a ship with decks perpendicular to their thrust land?
>> Why couldn't they be powered down? They would land and take off
>> straight up, like a helicopter. This would take less parkbay area
>> and not need long landing strips.

> They can.  The Broadsword is a classic example.  But Needles and
> Wedges give you problems.  A Needle form is six times longer that its
> width.  That makes it unstable and likely to fall over in a breeze.
> Landing is likewise a problem; imagine tossing a stick to the ground
> and hoping it lands perfectly balanced. The upside to Needles is
> using it for spinal mounts.

But the stick isn't under control and has neither gyros nor landing legs.

> Another inconvenient thing about parallel orientations is that you
> fly by looking up. This isn't so innate in ground pounders.  Here on
> Earth, we move around perpendicular to gravity and we're used to it.
> In space, suddenly, up is forward which is disorienting.

Except that you don't navigate by looking out a window. And between
battle damage risks, and the need for shielding from flares, the big
bridge windows as pure BS. You'll by looking at a viewscreen, using
whichever hull camera is the best choice. For that matter, it's quite
possible to have purely *optical* viewers (sort of an advanced
periscope system) that avoids the possibility of electronics failures. 

In all these cases, you are looking at a "screen", which is in front of
you, with the view being whatever angle you want.

The *only* time a forwarding looking "window" is of any use is for
docking nose first, or for operating at *visual* ranges and speeds (ie
in an atmosphere, and damned slow by spacecraft standards). Heck, given
the likely "up angle" the ship would need to get decent lift, you can't
even use the "window" on the typical "wedge" configurations while
*landing*. 

> I think it all boils down to where the ship will be most of the time.
> If its in space, then save on the artificial gravity and make a
> parallel orientation.

How does that "save on the artifical gravity"? 

In a parallel orientation, you have to *neutralize* the thust of the
main engines *and* generate artifical gravity at right angles to it. 

With a perpendicular orientation you only need to generate gravity when
the ship's thrust is less than one g (or whatever you run at) and only
need to neutralize when the ship's thrust is higher.

If *I* was designing the rules for ship design, this would be taken
into account. And it'd be cheaper to build and operate ships that had
gravity and thrust aligned (decks perpendicular to the thrust axis).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:26:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #773

In mail you write:

>> Ob. Trav... I don't know; testing new gear....?
>
> "The Computer has determined, Citizen, that you are cleared level red
> for this new wondrous device that R&D has made"
>
> Cut to two techs in bomb suits gingerly bringing a small black box with
> a glowing purple rod and one red button sticking out of it. Taking
> infinte pains, the place it on the ground and split. You didn't know
> humans coulrd run _that_ fast wearing such bulky armor.
>
> "Go find the Commies and use this on them! The Comuputer is your
> friend!"

Aha! Now we know. Paranoia is just a TNE supplement describing a planet
taken over by a particularly *strange* strain of Virus!

Want to be on the team that makes contact with this planet? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:10:01 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

Bruce Alan wrote:
> > However, Psi would hardly be useful in a naval battle. Canon
> > references to electromagnetic fields disrupting Psi abilities
> > (especially Telepathy) are numerous. Psi shields, the psi jammer
> > from "Expedition to Zhodane", or just walking under high power
> > lines will interfere with telepathy.
<snip>
> Still, even if it is susceptible to random interference one could
> design a ship to minimize such interference (I have a vague
> recollection of a "Games Workshop" (or some other british house)
> zhodani frigate design with a long boom and pod for the carried
> psionic adept. I wasn't suggesting having telepaths read enemies
> minds - just relay targeting data between friendly ships. Should
> work fine. Maybe an EMP from a close (100 km) detlaser detonation
> would briefly interfere, but if a small ship gets hit by a laser
> missile that's the least of its worries.

The ship you are thinking about is  the  Tiaflfiet  class  Patrol
Frigate from IISS Ship Files by Games Workshop.  They also  wrote
Adventure 4: Leviathan, which was published by GDW.  In the later
was a mention in Library Data to the Shivva class Patrol  Frigate
which also carries a telepath for ... coordinating action between
friendly ships (as Bruce suggested above).  Of course,  being  in
Library Data means it is subject to  potential  inaccuracies  and
thus is officially "maybe"-cannon.

I thought of another naval application of psi:  What about a  Psi
with Precognition, assigned to the planning staff of an  admiral.
Know where the enemy will be  before  the  enemy  decides  to  go
there!



Regards PLST
... Gencon UK -5 days and counting ...

___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:15:56 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

From:           	"Dean A.Cook" <wolv@powernet.net>
Date sent:      	Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:23:34 -0700

> Sorry but you are wrong. The Safari ship HAS bridge windows.

> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
 
> > Which is why IMTU

IMTU = In _My_ Traveller Universe, David is referring his interpretation of the 
game.

I totally agree with David on this point the point. I believe that RW spacecraft 
designers keep the number of windows down to a minimum for good reason. As 
David pointed out their disadvantages far out weigh any advantages; and with a 
reliable intergrated sensor package there really is no need for them. It looks 
"cool" for a saceship to have windows, but in reality they are no more than a 
totally unnecessary point of weakness.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:52:48 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

> > I think it all boils down to where the ship will be most of the time.
> > If its in space, then save on the artificial gravity and make a
> > parallel orientation.
>
> How does that "save on the artifical gravity"?
>

I was refering to Gravity being parallel to thrust not decks.  Thus we're
arguing the same point.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:02:18 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: QSDS: The software

I've just completed QSDS, the second in a line of BITS software
applications for Traveller. (Amazing what no distractions and mountain
scenery does to my thinking!) Like it's companion Infini-V, QSDS follows
all the rules and provides hard copy, HTML, and text file output.

Dom is off enjoying a well-deserved holiday in Malta, so we won't be able
to post the demo version it his page for a week or so. If you can't wait,
email me and I'll email you a copy of the demo. 

(The demo is fully functional, except that it can't save, export, or
print.  I suppose you could design the starship and copy it off, but we're
betting that you'll find it worth the money to avoid that hassle -
besides, we also figure you'll want more software, which means us earning
money...)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:27:15 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

>From: "Mark Logue" <mark.logue@bigfoot.com>
>
>However, Psi would hardly be useful in a naval battle.  Canon 
>references to electromagnetic fields disrupting Psi abilities 
>(especially Telepathy) are numerous.  Psi shields, the psi jammer 
>from "Expedition to Zhodane", or just walking under high power lines 
>will interfere with telepathy.
>
>Just imagine what the EMP pulse from a nuke-det-laser would do.
>

Seems to me that this would be one area where the Zho's would be working 
on advances which would allow additional focus/psi protection from such 
pulses.  Again, should they develop such an ability, there would be an 
equal and opposite reaction from the Imps to counter the advantage...  A 
tech increase (or ability) matched by a tech increase.

Greg Smith

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:53:28 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

>Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:03:07 -0400
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>	Which is why IMTU anything beyond about TL8 or 9 doesn't HAVE 
>"bridge windows." It's all viewscreens....
>	The Mk I eyeball isn't all that useful except for VFR 
>landings, close approach/dockings, and low-altitude traffic 
>avoidance.
>

Which is the reason why you would have either a bridge or auxiliary 
bridge with view windows for a ship that is going to land/dock...  


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:22:36 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

>I totally agree with David on this point the point. I believe that RW 
>spacecraft designers keep the number of windows down to a minimum for 
>good reason. As David pointed out their disadvantages far out weigh 
>any advantages; and with a reliable intergrated sensor package there 
>really is no need for them. It looks "cool" for a saceship to have 
>windows, but in reality they are no more than a totally unnecessary 
>point of weakness.
>

I agree about the point of weakness.  IIRC, the High Lightning class had 
a lounge at the tip of the gooseneck that was transparent.  Allowed for 
the wide angle view of the heavens for "relaxation" I guess.  I can't 
imagine putting these on a warship.  Did they have plating that could 
cover it?  I seem to remember that the broadsword did...  

Insert of Broadsword writeup:  "2.  Owner's Lounge.  For most routine 
functions, this area is used as an adjunct to the owner's suite for 
entertainment purposes.  It is one of the most spacious and luxuriously 
appointed of the areas on board.  Nevertheless, efficiency and economy 
dictate that this area also be used as an exercise room, auxiliary 
dining room, and as a marshalling area for troops used in boarding 
parties.  A large starview ceiling (defined by the dashed line; 
covereable with steel shutters in times of danger) pierces the hull over 
this room and the adjacent owner's suite."

I'd put these on private luxury vessels, like the yachts that were 
designed in one of the competitions.  And on liners for passengers to 
ooooh and aahhh from.  I'd expect that they would be tied to the sensors 
so that in the event of a flare they opaqued....  I might put a bridge 
window on smaller merchants for the landing on lower classed starports.  
But on a warship?  No way.  

As I said in a previous post, you might have an aux bridge or landing 
station (behind airlock type hatches of course) to allow visual control 
at the point you are trying to make contact.  However, their use would 
be few and far between.

I like the idea of view screens tied into all the ship's systems.  
"Magnify, Number One".  "Aye, aye, sir.  Magnified".  "Show me that data 
output on the main screen..."


The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

- ---"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

> Poetic license.  He was slated to die by the dice during the landing, so I 
> thought it would look *cool* if he hit the viewport and took it out.  
> Remember, you guys hit at over 300 km/hr.  I calc'ed it out at better than 100 
> meters/sec, so the decel would have been 10G or more.  The chair he was 
> strapped into increased the total weight to over 150 kilos, and it didn't slow 
> down very much when it broke loose.  150 kilos moving at 100 m/s is a LOT of 
> kinetic energy.  Thus, through the viewport like a straw in a 
> hurricane.

I still have my doubts but I accept thats the way it is IYTU. I find
the argument that there should be no window pretty convincing.

> BTW, your guy broke at least a rib in the landing.  <grin>

I will get to playing that out when the inital questions get answered.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:42:06 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.

That is a good idea. Especially as non GDW CT stuff is so hard to find...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:03:21 PDT
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

Terry Mixon wrote:
>
>I still have my doubts but I accept thats the way it is IYTU. I find
>the argument that there should be no window pretty convincing.
>

Additional write up from "Broadsword":

"24.  Vision Screen.  The major display device for the bridge is the 
vision screen.  It can dsplay exterior views from any angle and interior 
views of many locations within the ship itself.  In addition, the 
display screen is normally operated in split mode, showing many 
different readouts monitored by selected crew personnel.  Any specific 
readout can be called up on demand; the computer itself displays those 
readouts with anomalous data being displayed automatically, calling 
attention to the problems and potential problems of the current ship 
situation."

The bridge is on deck C, three levels from the prow for the very reasons 
Dave mentioned.  The vision screen covers about 1/4 of the bulkhead in 
the bridge, in front of the "control pit".

Greg Smith

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:48:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)

Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The bridge is on deck C, three levels from the prow for the very reasons 
Dave mentioned.  The vision screen covers about 1/4 of the bulkhead in 
the bridge, in front of the "control pit".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Broadsword is a warship, it put the bridge in the middle of the ship
with a C^3I center. Such a configuration should be standard for
all warships except those that intend to land often - and even those,
if big enough, may want another bridge that is behind several layers
of deck/armor/fuel.

Azhanti High Lightnings were originally built with a casual bridge full
of windows at the front of the gooseneck, the real command bridges
were in armored decks many levels to the rear. The casual bridge
up front (According to _Arrival Vengeance_) was eventually ripped
out on all the cruisers and replaced with a starview lounge. They kept
it on the AHL's that were converted to cargo use - probably so you
could move the ship around a crowded Highport at docking speeds
with a minimal crew.

Most small trade ships will want the bridge up front, probably with
windows. This makes it easier to segregte the bridge from cargo
and passenger areas, and allows (as someone pointed out) use of the
Mk I eyeball in docking situations and low-tech starport landings.

Speaking of the Mk I eyeball...I was looking over Best of the JTAS Vol 1,
at the "Ship in the Lake" scenario. It involves infiltration into a TL 6is
planet, and mentions that the "standard defensive screens" on the player's
type S Scout Ship will conceal them from "conventional radar" - that the
only way anyone was seeing their scoutship was with their eyes.
Does anyone know what "defensive screens" they were talking about?
This is probably the only reference I've ever seen to this kind of thing.


Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601


Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #781
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Traveller-digest       Friday, August 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 782



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #781
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)
How do you...
Re: Linguistic Drift
Re: How do you...
Re:  Marc Miller's T4
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: PbEM Openings
re: Linguistic Drift
Re: How do you...
To Doug Roberts <dgr@sk.sympatico.ca>
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Linguistic Drift
TRTOOLS 0.98.1
Incarceration of Zho P.O.W.s
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium
Re: Imperial Draft

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:55:26 -0400
From: Daniel Mendyke <Daniel.Mendyke@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #781

	>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Bill Rutherford wrote:
	>
	>> My CD arrived yesterday.  One word suffices to describe it:  WOW!
	>
	>What is on the CD?
	>
	>Where can it be ordered?
	>
	>How much does it cost?

	I think Bryan Borich sells this CD.
	You have to write to him and ask for it.
	His address is

	Bryan Borich
	3890 50th Street
	San Diego, CA 92105-3005

	I don't believe he sells it from a web
	site (yet).

	On another note.  Does anyone 
	remember Judges Guild?

	They will soon start selling 
	classic Traveller material from
	their web site at hppt://www.judgesguild.com.

	When complete their products will be 
	sold online or by 800 number (24 hours
	a day!).  Fulfillment will be out of
	Wisconsin so only Wisc residents will
	have to pay sales tax.

	Daniel Mendyke
	http://www.virtualvoices.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:32:48 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

"Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I agree about the point of weakness.  IIRC, the High Lightning class had 
> a lounge at the tip of the gooseneck that was transparent.  Allowed for 
> the wide angle view of the heavens for "relaxation" I guess.  I can't 
> imagine putting these on a warship.  Did they have plating that could 
> cover it?  I seem to remember that the broadsword did... 

Nope.  The casual bridge was only installed on the first three flint boats,
as it was too prone to battle damage.  Of the three, only the Azhanti
herself remains in service in the late 1100s.  There weren't many stations
there in any case, so combat operations from the casual bridge would 
probably be difficult.  The fittings were retained, however, and when
some Lightnings were transferred to the IISS or commercial operations, 
the vacant space was converted into a running bridge. 

The original casual bridge had a refreshment station and large holo
projector; judging by _Arrival Vengeance_, some ships converted the open
space into a recreation area.  Perhaps the state-of-the-art jump-5
Lightnings were expected to serve in peacetime roles similar to the
jump-6 rift cruiser of the 1100s; high-speed transit of vital personnel
and use as diplomatic vessels?

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:34:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)

Walter Smith wrote:

> Speaking of the Mk I eyeball...I was looking over Best of the JTAS Vol 1,
> at the "Ship in the Lake" scenario. It involves infiltration into a TL 6is
> planet, and mentions that the "standard defensive screens" on the player's
> type S Scout Ship will conceal them from "conventional radar" - that the
> only way anyone was seeing their scoutship was with their eyes.
> Does anyone know what "defensive screens" they were talking about?
> This is probably the only reference I've ever seen to this kind of thing.

That was early stuff, where lots of stuff that was never mentioned again
was included. I'd amend that to it being stealthed, rather than some
active 'screen'. However, TL12 steathing probably does include some
active component against radars, since our current technology has some
things working toward that end.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:43:06 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: How do you...

With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
psionicly adept?

Just wondering...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:54:04 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift

Walter Smith writes:
>Karoghlian Nobles demanding that their peasantry speak only
>Low Karogish, as it would be "uppity" for a peasant to learn
>Galactic? They've just set their planet back several tech levels.
There is one thing you are forgetting. Technology does not just cover
spaceships and guns. For example, my present job involves working with
Machine Translation engines. They aren't great, but they aren't that bad.
They are noticeably better than they used to be, and they are due to get
even better. There are companies out there offering real-time translation
of web stuff. Basically your browser fetches the page via a MT proxy which
translates it as it uploads. Given the inherant delay in accessing many
web-sites it isn't that much of a drain.
Anyway, the point is that in the Traveller era, MT is likely to be to the
point where it is quite simple to produce a document in many different
languages. Should the Karoghlian's wish to keep their peasants speaking a
different dialect, that shouldn't really keep them away from information.
Unless they control the import/export, anyone selling them stuff would most
likely be willing to offer it in whatever language they desired. The latest
scout survey of Low Karogish is likely to be enough to feed into a TL12
translation engine and provide perfect documentation.

Cheers,
Jo

 Dort ein Ding Sie ist vergessen. Technologie bedeckt Raumschiffe und
 Waffen nicht gerade. Zum Beispiel schliet mein gegenwrtiger Job ein, mit
 Maschinen von maschineller bersetzung zu arbeiten. Sie sind nicht gro
 aber sie sind nicht so schlecht. Sie sind sichtlich besser als sie waren
 und sie sollen sogar besser bekommen.  Es gibt Firmen und bietet die
 Echtzeitbersetzung von Netzzeug dort drauen an.  Grundstzlich holt Ihr
 Browser die Seite ber eine MT Vollmacht, die es bersetzt, wie es
 hochldt. Die inherant Verzgerung gegeben beim Zugreifen auf viele
 Netzstandorte es nicht so viel von einem Abflu ist. Dennoch ist der
 Punkt, da in der Reisendenra MT sein wird zum Punkt wahrscheinlich, wo
 es ziemlich einfach ist, ein Dokument in vielen verschiedenen Sprachen
 herzustellen.  Sollte der Karoghlians wnschen, ihre Bauern am Sprechen
 eines anderen Dialektes zu halten, der sie wirklich nicht weg von
 Information abhalten sollte. Wenn sie den Import/ den Export nicht
 kontrollieren, wrde jeder, der ihnen Zeug verkauft, am wahrscheinlichsten
 bereit sein, es darin anzubieten, welche auch immer Sprache sie wnschten.
 Die letzte Pfadfinderumfrage von Low Karogish wird wahrscheinlich genug
 sein, in eine TL12 bersetzungsmaschine zu fttern und perfekte
 Dokumentation zu liefern.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:30:26 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: How do you...

>With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
>incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?

Well, you need a flamer ... or a furnace, maybe. Heck, stacked logs and a
match would do. Open flames is definitely a must, however. Burn the
witches! Burn them!!!

Oh, wait, you said *incarcerate*! My bad. ;-)

Ciao,

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:02:32 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re:  Marc Miller's T4

Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com> writes:
>Well, it's been a few months - any further word from anybody about the
>future of the Traveller Chronicle?

Haven't heard a thing, even when I sent a polite letter asking what
happened to my two-year subscription. I'd really appreciate it if anyone
who's heard from either Kevin or Harold could email me.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:03:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> > Another inconvenient thing about parallel orientations is that you
> > fly by looking up. This isn't so innate in ground pounders.  Here on
> > Earth, we move around perpendicular to gravity and we're used to it.
> > In space, suddenly, up is forward which is disorienting.
> 
> Except that you don't navigate by looking out a window. And between
> battle damage risks, and the need for shielding from flares, the big
> bridge windows as pure BS. You'll by looking at a viewscreen, using
> whichever hull camera is the best choice. For that matter, it's quite
> possible to have purely *optical* viewers (sort of an advanced
> periscope system) that avoids the possibility of electronics failures. 
> 
> In all these cases, you are looking at a "screen", which is in front of
> you, with the view being whatever angle you want.

IMTU, *any* ship that has the capability of landing on a planet has 
viewscreens.  They're for emergency use, mainly.  They also have blast doors 
that can cover them for emergencies, like getting holed by a meteorite.

> The *only* time a forwarding looking "window" is of any use is for
> docking nose first, or for operating at *visual* ranges and speeds (ie
> in an atmosphere, and damned slow by spacecraft standards). 

Or when the instruments are out.  The best sensors in the universe won't do 
you much good if there's no power to them.

> If *I* was designing the rules for ship design, this would be taken
> into account. And it'd be cheaper to build and operate ships that had
> gravity and thrust aligned (decks perpendicular to the thrust axis).

I usually put the decks parallel to the thrust axis when I build freighters.  This way, assuming they land, it's easier to get at the cargo.  And of course, the ships land on their bellies.  IMTU, the manuvering thrusters are 'pointable' to allow the thrust field to lower the ship vertically, onto its belly.  Takeoffs are vertical lift to clear any obstacles in their path, then vector horizontally to achieve orbit.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:37:54 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

At 03:23 AM 8/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Sorry but you are wrong. The Safari ship HAS bridge windows.

At the risk of starting another flame war, please explain to me how *I* can
be wrong about *anything* In **MY** Traveller Universe? (note the "IMTU" in
the original message?)  And also how you know I'm wrong when you've never
been In **MY** Traveller Universe?

Then explain to me the logic of extrapolating from a single civilian
TL10-12 (IIRC) ship to the entire spectrum of all tech levels, all ships,
all uses, in all Traveller campaigns, run by all Traveller referees, to
come up with the conclusion that "bridge windows" are mandatory and my
personal statement of how I do things is categorically false?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>
>>At 03:19 AM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>> Considering that bridge windows have been a "point of ingress" to
>derelict
>>>ships in Traveller since the very beginning,we have to assume that they
>are
>>
>> Which is why IMTU anything beyond about TL8 or 9 doesn't HAVE "bridge

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:39:32 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

At 03:03 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> The *only* time a forwarding looking "window" is of any use is for
>> docking nose first, or for operating at *visual* ranges and speeds (ie
>> in an atmosphere, and damned slow by spacecraft standards). 
>
>Or when the instruments are out.  The best sensors in the universe won't do 
>you much good if there's no power to them.

	The best eyes in the universe won't do you *any* good if your sensors are
out for anything beyond visual ranges and speeds ... which is most of the
operating envelope for spacecraft.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:41:13 EDT
From: Ubwon@aol.com
Subject: Re: PbEM Openings

Jim,

I am intrested in playing traveller via e-mail
thanks for considering me

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:14:29 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: re: Linguistic Drift

Walt Smith wrote:

>Karoghlian Nobles demanding that their peasantry speak only
>Low Karogish, as it would be "uppity" for a peasant to learn
>Galactic? They've just set their planet back several tech levels.

??>  Why would the language spoken by the rude peasantry out in the
hinterlands have such a dramatic influence on the technological level of the
entire planet?  

If it has such tremendous power, the industrialization of Meiji Japan must not
have really happened.  Or of late Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union.  Or
China.  Or India.  

Clearly, a precondition for technical development is having the rural populace
of the country all speak the language of global trade and science -- English,
naturally.  And if they know what's good for them, _American_ English, which
history proves to be more adaptively fit and efficient.

;|

The argument I made about diglossia is that people will tend to have control
over _multiple_ linguistic codes, each being appropriate/acceptable for use in
only particular circumstances.  Said Karoghlian peasants might watch every
weekly installment of "As the Capital Churns" as soon as it comes off the X-
boat, in its original Galactic; whether they'd ever be expected to speak like
that themselves, want to, or have to, are all separate issues that don't
follow automatically.

On another line of argument, I'd envision many other social layers between and
around the Karoghlian peasants and nobles.  Karoghlian merchants, namely, who
might handle all the vulgar commercial aspects of offworld trade in stilted
textbook-precise Galactic, present the traditional handsome cut to the local
noble in a toadying register of High Courtly Karoghlese, and start selling off
their consignment of technological superiority to the hinterlands using
abusive "I'm an important rich man from the city" register of Southern Low
Karoghlish, possibly with manuals and advertising translated into the same. 

Accordingly, the Free Trader Marava, one of the itinerent shoelace peddlers
compared to _real_ interstellar trade, might land in backwoods Karoghlia --
infamous for its imprisonment in pristine low-tech squalor due to its being
denied the benefits of speaking Galactic -- its crew intent on offloading
obsolete LHyd-damaged microwave ovens with fake product logos onto the local
rubes, only to find that said rubes are careful to speak to them in the
melodramatic, borderline-hysterical phraseology of Imperial soap opeas and
already know precisely what a _real_ Sternmetal Horizons microwave oven looks
like and how they're _supposed_ to operate, thank you very much.

>things like that. Especially if such a revolution means the nearest
>megacorp can start selling piles of (Galactic language) video tapes
>to the new rulers of Karoglia.

A lack of Anglophone consumers has hardly put a dent in the export of English-
language pop culture across the world, and I suspect megacorps wouldn't find
the question too worrisome either.  At least on a megacorporate scale,
wholesale machine translation for their target markets would probably be cost-
efficient, too.

Resistance to media imports based on their content is another matter.  

>Which world is more likely to develop a culture with a strong
>sense of identity, resistant to Imperial culture - a small, poor
>world where people take pride in surviving, or a rich world that
>dominates it's local cluster?

Yes.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:33:09 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: How do you...

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
> incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
> incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
> and not outside causing havoc?  

IMTU, just as there are psi-boosting drugs, there are psi-damping
drugs.  Put them in the rations, et voila! no teleporting!  (I'm not
sure what, if anything, is said in the Law of War about this.  However,
I suspect that "war crime" is like "treason":  "...a charge invented by
winners as an excuse to hang the losers."

Further, just how _do_ you determine that
> that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
> psionicly adept?
> 
Through interrogation, of course.  ["Joe!  Bring me the TA-312,
willya?"]  I generally assume that _all_ Zhos are psionic adepts until
proven otherwise.


> Just wondering...
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger
> 
> We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit.
> --- Aristotle ---
> 
> mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:38:14 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: To Doug Roberts <dgr@sk.sympatico.ca>

Doug, for some reason my email to you keeps bouncing...your machine appears
to be returning "service unavailable". Don't know why.

Thanks for pointing out that the the link to the QP8 version of my Robots
spreadsheet was broken. It was misspelled. I have fixed it and tested
it...it appears to work fine.

Let me know if you have any problems...

<my apologies to the TML/TravTech lists at large, but I don't know which
list Doug subscribes too...>

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:53:43 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> As I recall, the humor in Greek comedies is still understood. And their
> culture was quite different, and 1500-2000 years from ours. I seem to
> recall that jokes have been found written in hieroglyphics in ancient
> Egyptian sites, and that they are understandable.

Very true.  For the Greek plays, the humor gets lost in those turn of the century
translations by I.M. Finley and others.  If you have even the slightest interest in
these, I urge to rush to your nearest book store or library and browse the
Arrowsmith translations of Aristophanes.  They are very modern and down
right hilarious.  They are generally available at larger book stores in the US, at
least, in moderately cheap trade paperbacks.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:51:38 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

I agree that the AHL deck 01 dome seemed silly to me, but how much do you want
to bet that the deck plates dividing deck 01 and 02 is a load bearing/armored
deck equivalent to the hull of the ship, and that it's depressurised as part
of sounding general quarters. The AHL is only partly streamlined (for gas
skimming) so the blunt gooseneck (assuming a blown dome) shouldn't be much of
a problem. I can see SOME justification for the IISS AHL's (a place to shoot
the stars?) though... My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts weeny.
What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:49:24 -0700
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

From: dberry@hooked.net
>>> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>>>   Gee, Kenji, you're beginning to look like a backslider - remember th=
>e
>>> official line is that we're not dead, just pining, at least until this
>>> Virus thing is over with...
>>
>>They're just pining to the fjords...
>>
>>>   Brought to you by the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy
>>
>>This message brought to you by the Traveller/Monty Python Conspiracy
>
>Both being divisions of the Ancient and Excellent Templar Conspiracy.
>Serving you since FNORD.

Every Strephon's sacred
Every Strephon's great
If Strephon's assasinated
The Imperium disintegrates...


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:55:05 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift

>There is one thing you are forgetting. Technology does not just cover
>spaceships and guns. For example, my present job involves working with
>Machine Translation engines. They aren't great, but they aren't that bad.
[snip]
> Dort ein Ding Sie ist vergessen. Technologie bedeckt Raumschiffe und
> Waffen nicht gerade. Zum Beispiel schliesst mein gegenwartiger Job ein, mit
> Maschinen von maschineller Ubersetzung zu arbeiten. Sie sind nicht gross
> aber sie sind nicht so schlecht. Sie sind sichtlich besser als sie waren

Jo, this is terrible!  This is simply awful!  You must stop _immediately_.
No, wait, you'd better keep the job and sabotage work as thoroughly as
possible.  While I'm sure it seemed like a 'gross' idea at the time, this
could spell terrible disaster.  I hardly read German at all, but even I can
tell this is definitely more fluent than AltaVista's Babelfish engine.  I
mean, I don't start giggling before I let the engine put it back into English.
If we let machine translation get any better, how can the peoples of the world
entertain themselves feeding random texts from Lang. A > B > A and amuse one
another giving dramatic readings of the results????  You're endangering a
vital, exuberant folk art!  Please stop, for the good of humanity!!!!

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:44:04 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS 0.98.1

TRTOOLS 0.98.1 is now ready for download.

Additions to the previous version are:

* extended system generation
* convert data from Galactic to UWP format

Note that this is an interim release, and will probably contain bugs.  The
next release will expand on the above two tasks, allowing more flexibility
in the system to be 'expanded', and with a much more complete array of file
format conversion options.


TRTOOLS 0.98.1 can be found at:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/software.html


As usual, please send me any and all bug reports, gripes, comments and
suggestions.



Thanx,



Michael Bailey

mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
mtbailey@student.cowan.edu.au
solomani@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:12:43 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Incarceration of Zho P.O.W.s

In a message dated 98-08-28 13:45:25 EDT, you write:

<< With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
 incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
 incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
 and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
 that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
 psionicly adept?
 
 Just wondering...
 
 Kurt Feltenberger >>

Hey Kurt,

in my setting the 3I uses a drug that they mix into the prisoners food, water,
and air supply in the POW Camps, the 3rd Imperium POW camps are usually built
in hollowed out astriods that are towed by speical Tugs that move them to
where they are needed.  their is also a Hyperspray application of said drug
taht medics administer to wounded Zhos when they first capture them (and to
those not wounded they are 'gased' with a speical arosal version).

i hope this gives you some ideas for Zho Prisoner care...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:30:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
...
>> ObTrav...  How many people think that comedy from the late 20 th Century
>> Earth will be new again to the 3I, or will they have other standards... 
...
>As I recall, the humor in Greek comedies is still understood. And their
>culture was quite different, and 1500-2000 years from ours. 
...

  I've been told that Aristophanes is funny without artificial enhancement,
but I don't recall if I can swear to that.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:30:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.

>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Canon, Canon Everywhere, and Not a Drop to Drink.
...
>I am canon-deficient.
>
>There is so much canon out there, but so little of it is readily available.
>I, for example, have T4, some CT (and some MT en route).  Thats it.
...
>But perhaps we need to set some Traveller monks on the task of compiling and
>archiving canon for the new Travellers that are sure to follow.

  How about Mr. Borich and his efforts to get the older Traveller material
onto CD-ROM? That work is progressing, and I for one look forward to buying
the results (although the current exchange rates weren't what I had in mind).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:33:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

Rupert wrote:

> >What evidence in canon is there that any psi effect is FTL?
> 
> TNE gives pretty good (IMO) evidence that telepathy (anyway) is not FTL, in
> that it says that telepathy is the reading of a mind's electromagnetic
> patterns. As electromagnetic signals move at lightspeed, I assume that
> telepathy will also be at lightspeed. Personally I rule that teleportation
> is FTL, because IMTU it sort of 'skims' Jump space to give a micro jump
> that sends scientists wild by violating the jump=1 week rule.

Mmm...  need to reread RSB, Rupert.  Particularly the part about Supranormal
Theory (in the ref's section especially).  It's only the artificial psi's who
are dependent on EM patterns for telepathy.  Natural telepathy goes into a
different dimension or something like that.  That's how the theory goes,
anyways. ; )  The theory was left unexplored due to the death of GDW so it's
validitity is up to you, though i'd bank on it being relatively true.  There
is precedent in CT adventures.  Also i'd bank on a twist in there somewhere.
TNE epitomized the best of Traveller (turning things around ala the Aslan and
J-drive, Solomani and the Rebellion, etc etc).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:34:45 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium

The Moot didn't dissolve the Imperium because it was the Moot that fragmented
along the faction lines and flocked to the various factions.  The Imperial
bureaucracy stayed w/ Lucan, but the rest was split.  The reason Lucan
wouldn't let the Moot stay was because it had a damned good probability of
going for Dulinor.  That was Lucan's fear, anyways.  Dulinor was well within
his rights as an Archduke (more power, influence and presence than Lucan, even
as Emperor, much less as Prince).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:38:59 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Draft

Actually i've found something very interesting in MT Players Manual pg75, in
the Dulinor entry.  It says that Dulinor, in his efforts to make a more
involved and responsible Imperium has a universal draft going for his Domain,
which increased training and edjucation..  He was the oddball in his basic
philosophy in that respect, so most of the Domains probably don't have it, but
there is the precedent.  It's vastly unnecessary for the imperial military
considering the billions of volunteers there must be (compared to the
trillions of inhabitants) so there must be a good civil service and alot of
public works in the Domain of Illelish.  He'd probably be damned popular at
home.

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #782
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 783



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge) Update 2
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Imperial Draft
FREE GAMES
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Expanding starship software (fwd)
Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
TurboCAD
Re: Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)
Re: How do you...
Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:38:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

>From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech
...
>Seems to me that this would be one area where the Zho's would be working 
>on advances which would allow additional focus/psi protection from such 
>pulses.  Again, should they develop such an ability, there would be an 
>equal and opposite reaction from the Imps to counter the advantage...  A 
>tech increase (or ability) matched by a tech increase.

  Again, if the Regency was making advances with almost no efforts, what
had the Zhodani figured out? Within biological limitations (i.e., Cthulhu's
special ability) and their TL (no psi-amplifiers unless TL 14-, etc.) they
should have discovered just about everything possible within the psionic
realm of humaniti.

  It can be assumed that there are no major space warfare advantages to be
gained (OK, the existence of precognition makes that very questionable), but
the ground warfare capabilities seem to be understated quite drastically.

  Given that the real Zhodani purpose in fighting the Frontier Wars seems to
have been to maintain the status quo, what arguments can be advanced regarding
the theory that they deliberately held back from using any psionic capabilities
that might spook the Imperium too much* (like using precog if post-war analysis
will make such usage obvious).

  * (sort of like the Darrian situation: if you use any spare star triggers
that you may or may not have lying around you have demonstrated not only 
your ability, but your irresponsibility to have TL 1+ weapons)

        Steven Hudson

  PS - or, given the Zhodani likely advantage in psychohistory (they _know_
how humans think) maybe their behaviour is also meant to encourage this
theory in Imperial Naval circles, even if human psionics really are only
limited to parlour tricks [and teleporting micrograms of anti-matter into
grav-tank vehicle parks].
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:27:39 -0700
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge) Update 2

AUCTION: Traveller Magazines (JTAS, TravDigest, Challenge) Update 2

Rules:
1) Email all bids to jpratt@ucla.edu
2) Purchaser pays ALL shipping charges (USPS Priority or Global Priority).
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4) Items will be held until check clears.
5) Bidding will continue until price stops rising. Going/Goingx2/Gone.
6) Email me (jpratt@ucla.edu) if you have any questions.
7) All items are in Excellent to Near Mint condition unless otherwise noted
8) Frequent status updates will be emailed to bidders, usually 2-3x/week.
9) No trades, buy-outs, or group bids.
10) Tie bids will be settled by a coin-toss.
11) Thanks for looking.

JOURNAL OF THE TRAVELLER AID SOCIETY
(Minimum Bid: $5 each)
JTAS BestOf1
JTAS BestOf2 $5 Tphillip
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OTHER
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- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:05:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

>From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
...
>Every Strephon's sacred
>Every Strephon's great
>If Strephon's assasinated
>The Imperium disintegrates...

  From this a proof arises that increasing the number of Strephons (and or
generic Emperors) does _not_ increase stability.

  That's an interesting point you have there, Bruce.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:03:37 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>> So? Why can't a ship with decks perpendicular to their thrust land? Why
>> couldn't they be powered down? They would land and take off straight up,
>> like a helicopter. This would take less parkbay area and not need long
>> landing strips.
>
>They can.  The Broadsword is a classic example.  But Needles and Wedges
>give you
>problems.  A Needle form is six times longer that its width.  That makes it
>unstable and likely to fall over in a breeze.

Strange that all those skyscrapers, which are far taller than six times
their height, manage to stay up perfectly fine and don't get blown over by
breezes. If the ship is unstable it will be unstable no matter what it's
deck orientation. Ocean ships, which have decks parallel to their long
axis, can be unstable and fall over.

>Landing is likewise a problem;
>imagine tossing a stick to the ground and hoping it lands perfectly
>balanced. The
>upside to Needles is using it for spinal mounts.

Ships do not get "tossed to the ground". They land balanced or they will
crash, no matter how their decks are aligned. Changing the deck orientation
will not make an unbalanced ship balanced and "tossing" a ship with
parallel decks and thrust axis at the ground has just as low a chance at
landing perfectly. There are vehicles, like the mars lander, which are
designed to land at any orientation and they have a design far different
from anything shown on a Traveller starship. Configuration has nothing to
do with it; you can design a flat slab or tall needle to land at any
orientation and stay up.

Moreover, this balance must be maintaned at all times regardless of whether
it is sitting on the ground or flying in space. Consider that a reaction
drive generates all its thrust at the engine, which even in the
parallel-axis ships is usually located at the far end of the ship. In order
for the ship to fly straight it must be stable along the long axis, at
whatever gees the ship is capable of. If a ship is not going to tumble
accelerating in space at 3 gees it certainly will not topple sitting on the
ground at 1 gee. However, your parallel-axis ship must be stable along
multiple axes, and in the transition as it flys. Ships with perpendicular
decks and thrust axes have none of these constraints.

>Another inconvenient thing about parallel orientations is that you fly by
>looking
>up. This isn't so innate in ground pounders.  Here on Earth, we move around
>perpendicular to gravity and we're used to it.  In space, suddenly, up is
>forward
>which is disorienting.

I can't believe you're serious. First of all, pilots do not navigate
interplanetary journeys by looking out a window, and even if they did your
statement makes no sense. People don't become any more "disoriented" by
crawling, climbing a ladder, or accelerating in a car, which is movement
not perpendicular to gravity or where "up is forward". Yet people do become
disoriented by spinning, which is perpendicular to gravity. If you just
want to watch scenery you can put a viewport anywhere you want.

>I think it all boils down to where the ship will be most of the time.  If
>its in
>space, then save on the artificial gravity and make a parallel
>orientation.  If it
>lands often, then use a perpendicular.  Note that thrusters are not used
>in jump
>space thus grav plates are needed for half the time aboard starships.

What? You have been claiming all along that a parallel orientation is
better if a ship lands! Did you make a mistake or are you claiming it is
only better in space? In space it is still worse because you need an extra
gee of compensation to counteract the ship's acceleration.

Unfortunately, landing in a ship with parallel decks and thrust will make
the problems of varying ship orientation, shifting cargo, multiple stable
axes, and landing area worse.

True, in jump space the deck orientation is irrelevant, so a perpendicular
orientation is no advantage. It is only better when there is an external
force, like an acceleration or gravity field.

>With the thrust and decks perpendicular, there need be no shifting at any
>acceleration. Even 6 uncompensated gees wouldn't budge your cargo an inch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>What's happening here is the ships with decks perpendicular to main
>engine thrust were designed by people who think of contragrav and
>intertial compensators as standard safety features, so reliable that
>it's OK to have a ship that's unusable when they're offline.

I think you have your terms swapped; ships with decks perpendicular to main
engine thrust are still safe and usable even if contragrav and inertial
compensators didn't exist; parallel decks and thrust are unusable without
them.

Even if contragrav and internal compensators were totally reliable, never
failed, and used no power, it is still economically unsound to use
spaceships with parallel decks and thrust axes for the reasons I have
already gone into detail for.

The reason Traveller ships have parallel decks and thrust is because they
were designed by 20th-century artists who think starships are a kind of
airplane

>We've got some examples of assumptions like this today. How many
>airliners are equipped with high-altitude emergency escape
>capabilities? We've got the technology, but we don't see the need.

I agree. In Traveller, they have the technology to build starships with
parallel decks and thrust, even though there is no need. Airplanes aren't
equipped with high-altitude emergency escapes because the cost/benefit
ratio is near zero. Parallel decks and thrust have a high cost and no
benefit at all, in fact they are disadvantageous.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:08:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Draft

...
>the Dulinor entry.  It says that Dulinor, in his efforts to make a more
>involved and responsible Imperium has a universal draft going for his Domain,
>which increased training and edjucation..  He was the oddball in his basic
>philosophy in that respect, so most of the Domains probably don't have it, but
>there is the precedent.  It's vastly unnecessary for the imperial military
>considering the billions of volunteers there must be (compared to the
>trillions of inhabitants) so there must be a good civil service and alot of
>public works in the Domain of Illelish.  He'd probably be damned popular at
>home.

  Luckily the proactive indoctrination possibilities escaped him :\

  I wonder why the local IN went over en masse to the traitor?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 07:58:55 +0200
From: "G. Presti" <presti@venus.it>
Subject: FREE GAMES

THE NETGAMERS
Free games and adventures every month at: http://www.treemme.org/netgamers


The free game of this month:
BATTLEMASS 1.1
Tridimensional Wargame of MAD (Mechanized Assault Droid) combat.


..........................................................................................
Gioacchino Prestigiacomo -Via Luigi Porta, 12/a -27100 Pavia
Tel-fax: +39 (0382) 304538 - email: presti@treemme.org
THE NETGAMERS - http://www.treemme.org/netgamers
..........................................................................................

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 06:45:58 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:03:37 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:

> The reason Traveller ships have parallel decks and thrust is because they
> were designed by 20th-century artists who think starships are a kind of
> airplane.

Actually, most small vessels require decks laid out perpendicular to the
axis of thrust primarily because they are easier to draw.

However, small vessels (ie: <1,000 tons, with the exception of a few like
the MC) with their decks orientated the way you describe would make for a
vessel with many, many tiny, cramped decks.  Passengers and crew would have
to move about the craft primarily via ladders and lifts, which can become a
bit of a pain.  Only with larger ships does this "skyscraper" layout begin
to become practical.

Don't get me wrong, I like the "skyscraper" layout like the AHL.  I just
don't think it works well with the smaller displacement ships, within which
most Traveller players spend most of their shipboard time in.  I'd like to
see the deckplans for a scout/courier with such a layout.  Cabins would
have to be arranged one to a deck and stacked on top of each other :)



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:00:05 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software (fwd)

>One of the things I like least about Traveller starships is that there is no
>avenue for upgrading anything but the weapons in the turrets.  I disagree with
>it, and have been trying to generate rules for it for a couple of years now.

I see your point, but doesn't software in Traveller already do this? After
all, there is Gunner-1, -2, and so on. The problem is not that computer
software isn't upgradeable, it's that it has been ignored in most design
systems.

>> Let me get this straight; you are installing weapons specifically designed
>> to *kill the ship's occupants*? Wow, hijackers must love this one... You
>> don a filter suit, do something to trigger the anti-hijack program, and the
>> ship obligingly gasses the entire crew. Cute. Or are there separate defense
>> and control systems for different areas of the ship? Since by necessity
>> data paths for these systems must be spread throughout the ship, you just
>> need to hack into communications to kill the captain, gas engineering, and
>> hold passengers for ransom. You might even be able to do it remotely...
>> Virus for real!
>
>I think it makes a lot of sense to have these capabilities in the cargo and
>'tween deck areas.  For some ships, accesses to critical portions of the ship
>(outside the hatches to engineering and the bridge, for example) may also be
>covered.  I don't forsee indiscriminate usage.

I think these capabilities are dangerous and useless. They would more
likely be used by hijackers than against them, will anger passengers, are
vulnerable to accident or sabotage, will be ineffective against a prepared
attacker, and risk enormous collateraral damage. I agree the crew won't use
them much because they won't be very effective; it is hijackers that will
use them indiscriminately.

>> Seriously, most legal systems ban lethal traps on the principle that life
>> is more important than property. And "automated defensive measures" are
>> already banned by the Shudusham Concord and illegal in the Third Imperium.
>
>As I understnad the Concord, automated defenses are not banned, just defenses
>where the AI is permitted to decide at what level those defenses are
>prosecuted
>at.  Anti-Hijack uses a decision tree created by a sophont security
>specialist,
>and those areas where lethal force would be used should be clearly marked.

If the Concord had a loophole that huge it would be worthless, the same
excuse would allow any kind of automated defense at all.

I agree with the Concord both on moral and playability grounds; it means
that if the players resort to violence they will have to do the dirty work
and suffer the consequences themselves.

>> IMTU, such defense systems are found only in bad holovids.
>
>I'm afraid I must disagree.  With the Ship's Computer able to interface
>with all
>systems, including the floor plates (grav), inertial compensation, and
>ultimately, life support, the A/H has a variety of lethal responses that
>can be
>utilized if properly programmed (or worse, improperly programmed.)  If you
>primarily operate in a TNE universe, then I can see where this may not
>apply to
>your campaign - but there are legacy starships.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It is not necessarily true that the ship computer can interface with all
systems. Even if the ship has High Automation, which most combat ships do
not, subsystems can be isolated units not under external control. This
applies to all campaigns, not just TNE. Even if the computer has total
control of the entire ship this does not make it legal, moral, effective,
or dramatic roleplaying for the ship to be designed specifically to kill
the crew.

Ultimately though, this is not relevant to how the anti-hijack program
works. Even if it were theoretically possible for the computer to kill the
ship's occupants this does not mean that commercial software will be
designed specifically to do it. For example, the fact that someone can be
killed by a car is not relevant to making burglar alarms set off AP mines
under the driver's seat instead of that annoying siren.

As an aside, would you want to fly in a plane that had AP mines under the
seats as an "anti-hijack" device?

>> Interesting idea but, again, not software.
>
>If the software doesn't anticipate the hardware, what use will it be?

Huh? All I am saying is that things like poison gas dispensers and
bioscanners are hardware, and must be purchased and installed separately
from software. If your software "anticipates" hardware that isn't there it
certainly will be of no use at all.

Anti-hijack is a MCr 0.1 computer program, and if buying a copy suddenly
makes hardware appear all over your multi-kiloton spacecraft this will
unbalance the game.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 03:33:44 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Communism, Capitalism, and Humour

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   I've been told that Aristophanes is funny without artificial enhancement,
> but I don't recall if I can swear to that.

Depends on the translator.  Well, really, the performer too.  These were plays
and
not books. I can say from personal experience that it is difficult to play the
lead --
Pistitairos, IIRC, the mayor of Cloud Couckoo Land -- that it is very difficult

to perform the role with a straight face.  Especially when the sophists bring
the
books with rules.  ("Its in the book!")

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:09:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

In mail you write:

>> In all these cases, you are looking at a "screen", which is in front of
>> you, with the view being whatever angle you want.
>
> IMTU, *any* ship that has the capability of landing on a planet has 
> viewscreens.  They're for emergency use, mainly.  They also have blast doors 
> that can cover them for emergencies, like getting holed by a meteorite.
>
>> The *only* time a forwarding looking "window" is of any use is for
>> docking nose first, or for operating at *visual* ranges and speeds (ie
>> in an atmosphere, and damned slow by spacecraft standards). 
>
> Or when the instruments are out.  The best sensors in the universe won't do 
> you much good if there's no power to them.

Which was why I mentioned that it's perfectly doable to have purely
*optical* "viewscreens". Lenses, prisms and mirrors. And a few
mechanical linkages (which would be in the bridge, not out at the
lenses). So you are watching a "projected" view from whichever lens
you've selected. And you select via what is essentially a mirror
behind the screen. So if something breaks, you can open a panel and
move the thing by hauling on a rope or something. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:14:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: TurboCAD

I just picked up a copy of TrurboCAD v3.1 that someone was going to
toss. Is anybody using this for designing ships or drawing maps? If so,
do you have any symbol libraries you've created for this sort of thing?
I rather avoid re-inventing the wheel. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:23:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Windows (was re: Wipeout...)

In mail you write:

> Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The bridge is on deck C, three levels from the prow for the very reasons 
> Dave mentioned.  The vision screen covers about 1/4 of the bulkhead in 
> the bridge, in front of the "control pit".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Broadsword is a warship, it put the bridge in the middle of the ship
> with a C^3I center. Such a configuration should be standard for
> all warships except those that intend to land often - and even those,
> if big enough, may want another bridge that is behind several layers
> of deck/armor/fuel.

Good example is subs. They have the bridge in the "middle" of the ship,
but also have the "dodger bridge" on the conning tower for things like
docking. 

And I seem to recal that some ships have a "pilot's bridge" that gives
a better view for the benefit of harbor pilots piloting the ship into
the harbor. 

> Speaking of the Mk I eyeball...I was looking over Best of the JTAS Vol 1,
> at the "Ship in the Lake" scenario. It involves infiltration into a TL 6is
> planet, and mentions that the "standard defensive screens" on the player's
> type S Scout Ship will conceal them from "conventional radar" - that the
> only way anyone was seeing their scoutship was with their eyes.
> Does anyone know what "defensive screens" they were talking about?
> This is probably the only reference I've ever seen to this kind of thing.

I'd say it was something that slipped past GDW. 

If the Type-S is the wedge configuration, then you could stealth it
fairly easily, as it's already essentially a series of flat planes for
most of the hull. You'd just have to make the hull a lot smoother than
the illustrations show. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:31:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How do you...

In mail you write:

> With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
> incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
> incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
> and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
> that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
> psionicly adept?

I'd say that a psi shield will block teleportation. 

Alternatively, given that things like clothes and armor go with the guy
when he ports, I'd say that anything "connected" to him has to go
along, and that "connected" is loose enough that a cain connecting him
to something solid will count.

So you just keep him chained to either something solid or when moving
him around, to a couple of guards with guns. He ports, he has to take
them with him, and they shoot him. 

To avoid telekinetics picking locks, I'd *weld* or *rivet* the
bracelet/anklet onto Zhodani prisoners. I rather suspect that this is
how the Zhodani themselves handle the situation when they have to
imprison someone *without* burning out their psi centers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:01:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

In mail you write:

>   It can be assumed that there are no major space warfare advantages to be
> gained (OK, the existence of precognition makes that very questionable), but
> the ground warfare capabilities seem to be understated quite drastically.

Well, precog may have problems with a situation with as many variables
as space combat. One interesting use might be to enable Zhodani task
forces to exit from jump more closely than Imperials can. After all, if
you can know in adavance how long you'll be in jump, you can "tune"
your entry.

However, I'd say that for playability, precog, when it works, should be
of a "this is what WILL happen". In other words, if your precog saw it,
you can't change it (unless he actually failed the precog roll and saw
the wrong thing).

This limits the strategic utility *greatly* and reduces it to a limited
tactical role.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:16:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

In mail you write:

> I agree that the AHL deck 01 dome seemed silly to me, but how much do you 
> want
> to bet that the deck plates dividing deck 01 and 02 is a load bearing/armored
> deck equivalent to the hull of the ship, and that it's depressurised as part
> of sounding general quarters. The AHL is only partly streamlined (for gas
> skimming) so the blunt gooseneck (assuming a blown dome) shouldn't be much of
> a problem. I can see SOME justification for the IISS AHL's (a place to shoot
> the stars?) though... My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
> metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts 
> weeny.
> What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?

Transparent metals are *really* hard to justify. But there are lots of
strong transparent materials. I'd have the dome be something really
strong, but not metallic. And of course, the dome is useless during
flares and during battle. I'd definitely have the bulkhead be hull quality.

I'd also go to the expense of having the dome ground optically "flat".
That way, with only a simple corrective element, you can set up a
telescope in there and get good images. This could be handy if the ship
is coasting on minimum power. You can keep an eye on something without
a big sensor signature. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:58:58 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...

As the Imperium is run by a noble aristocracy, it's only reasonable
to assume that there will be a large number of heraldic
devices and symbols being used.  I am aware of the Irridium Throne and
the Imperial Crown as canon symbols, as well as the Starburst/Sunburst.
Also, Archduke Norris uses a unicorn as his device.

My questions,
 1) Should all Imperial Noble headgear (crowns, coronet's, tiara's, diadems,
etc)
      be  made of irrridium?

(Carefully avoiding the Irridium Baseball Cap, common among Solomani
Baronet's in Reaver's Deep)

  2) In feudal technarchies (sp!), what material should headgear be made of?
       It need's to be impressive, beautiful, and hard to find/make, I would
think.
      Assume that nanotechnology is impossible because of [handwave].

       I doubt if diamond would be the right choice (to easily made
artifically),
       and gold/sIlver/gems would only be used by low-tech families,
(although
       some Very, Very Old Vilani and Solomani families may use it, to show
       how long they've been around...)

  3) As an aside, what were the symbols of nobility during the First and
       Second Imperia?

Personal guesses as to various Imperial symbols...

1) Animals from Vland and Terra - ie nobles riding horses, lions, etc
2) Weapon's - swords, maces, First Imperium laser carbines, Colt .45's
3) Starships - Starship & Crown (Asimov's Empire), warship surrounded by
     star's, three Sylea battleship's around a world, etc.
4) Astrological and astronomical stuff - Chinese and Babylon astrological
    symbols, star's & novas, ringed planets, nebula's, etc.
5) Religious symbols - Christian crosses, Islamic cresent/star, Communist
    Hammer & Sickle, Vilani traditionalist glyph's, assorted new
    religious symbol's, Star of David, depending on the noble house.
6) the Vilani oval (symbol: First Imperium) and the U.N. globe of Terra
    (Second Imperium), as well as the Imperial Starburst (Third Imperium).
    Maybe Circle & Cross (Astronomical symbol of Earth, used as the national
    symbol of the Solomani Confederation, but it may also be the Solomani
    racial symbol.)
7) Crowned computer hardware (ie: computers symbolizing knowledge, crowned
    printers symbolizing communication, etc)
8) Japanese nobility likes using flowers as house symbols, European's prefer
    shields.... I am unaware of other Terran nobility's preferences, or even
Roman
    nobility.
9) Non-Solomani/Vilani nobility - I would guess the few Zhodani-decended
Imperial
    nobility (there must be *somebody*) may use the clouded-moon symbol, or
    something else derived from the Consulate.  Hiver, Droyne (coyns?),
Vargr, Aslan,
    minor-race nobility?

   I doubt if there are ANY K'kree nobility in the entire thousand-year
history of the
   Imperium: the Imperium is too far away, too carnivorous, and too socially
fluid to
   expect K'kree to stick around long enough to be ennobled, or to actually
work in the
   the interest's of the Imperium.  If there ever were any, though, they
might use a head
   of lettuce or cabbage....

In general, noble's like using symbols that reflect power, wealth, justice,
intelligence,
piety, and all the other things that the general population feels is Noble
and Good.
Often, the symbols should show age and permanence: thus, stuff from Long Ago
from the Home World may be used, as well as representation's of various
ancient event's.  Imperial nobles would like to reflect their relationship
with
the Emperor: ergo, Imperial Starburst's, Irridium-made items, etc are
popular.
Also, as the Imperium govern's space, astronomical and astrological item's
would be used: warships would be used as well.

Oh yeah, there are also Corporate symbols that would be used: the bigger the
coropration, the better (also, family-owned corporation would use the family
crest, and/or the family will use the corporate symbol as part of their
crest).
Popular among Vilani nobles would be the four Vilani megacorp's.

Alvin Plummer
PS: The Irish Navy has some cool naval crest's, at
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/8046/crests.html
It would look good for a system fleet, hmmm?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #783
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 784



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How do you...
Re: Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: How do you...
Re: How do you...
HIWG CD-ROM
TTC
Re: Starship deck orientation
Prison Planet
Re: How do you...
Re: How do you...
Re: How do you...
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: How do you...
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Additional wealth for PC's?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 08:06:15 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: How do you...

At 01:43 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
>incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
>incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
>and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
>that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
>psionicly adept?

Since the Zhodani military only commissions the nobility, all officers are
assumed psionic.  Also, anyone captured in combat with the Consular Guard
is assumed to be psionic.

EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War) uniforms would include a psi shield.  EPW
facilities would be built with larger fields.  While being transported from
the point of capture to the EPW collection point, care must be taken to
keep the prisoners from identifying landmarks that might aid escape attempts.

Standard policy would be to transport EPWs to the rear, preferably off
planet, as quickly as possible for interrogation and safety.  Once on a
rear area planet, the danger of teleporting prisoners is lower, but
psi-shields and dampers are still used.

This is modified from the US army's procedures on handling enemy spec-war
prisoners (Spetz and the like).  One thing the manual stresses is
protecting the prisoners from your own side.  A group of soldiers who have
been under telekinetic and teleportational assault are going to want
revenge.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 07:56:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...

At 09:58 AM 8/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>As the Imperium is run by a noble aristocracy, it's only reasonable
>to assume that there will be a large number of heraldic
>devices and symbols being used.  I am aware of the Irridium Throne and
>the Imperial Crown as canon symbols, as well as the Starburst/Sunburst.
>Also, Archduke Norris uses a unicorn as his device.

The Unbridled Steed was long a symbol for the Regina/Jewell area, since
several stars in those subsectors made up a constellation (visible from
where they never say) resembling a unicorn.  Norris adopted it for the
Domain of Deneb when he was elevated to the position in 1116.

>My questions,
> 1) Should all Imperial Noble headgear (crowns, coronet's, tiara's, diadems,
>etc) be  made of irrridium?

I'd reserve that for Archdukes and the Imperial family.

>3) Starships - Starship & Crown (Asimov's Empire), warship surrounded by
>     star's, three Sylea battleship's around a world, etc.

The official crest for the office of the Duchy of Lunion is a
Terrapin-class cruiser pointed away from the viewer, towards the stars.
The motto is "Ever in Front"


>9) Non-Solomani/Vilani nobility - I would guess the few Zhodani-decended
>Imperial nobility (there must be *somebody*) may use the clouded-moon
symbol, or something else derived from the Consulate.  Hiver, Droyne
(coyns?), Vargr, Aslan, minor-race nobility?

I think any Zhodani descended nobility would take pains to distance
themselves from any sort of connection with the family's past.  By the time
an "enemy" family had enough clout to be granted a patent of nobility, they
are probably thoroughly acclimated to the Imperium.  Remember, they left
for some reason or another!

I don't doubt that an Aslan's coat of arms would be in the traditional
style, with great amounts of Trokh covering every deed in the family's
glorious history.  Vargr would have arms as varied as the race itself, with
one general rule.. it's going to be *loud*  (The Baron's formal Hawaiian
shirt?  Why not?)

Droyne seem to be to remote to actually become deeply involved in Imperial
government, although the leader caste probably has some means of
identifying different work groups.  Remember, in Droyne society, Leaders
are a different caste, and don't depend on patronage or divine right to
rule.. it's what they were born to do.

One noble's shield I'd love to see is a Newt lord.  Probably has his skin
pattern reproduced on it.  Imagine introducing a Newt noble at a reception
with *all* honors and titles..
>
>   I doubt if there are ANY K'kree nobility in the entire thousand-year
>history of the Imperium: the Imperium is too far away, too carnivorous,
and >too socially fluid to expect K'kree to stick around long enough to be
>ennobled, or to actually work in the the interest's of the Imperium.  If 
>there ever were any, though, they might use a head of lettuce or cabbage....

You might be surprised.. these are intelligent creatures (annoying, racist,
touchy creatures, but intelligent).  It's very unlikely that any K'Kree
have ever been ennobled, but I could see it happening.  Imagine a subsector
Duke in the Empty Quarter facing increasing Vargr raids.  He invites some
dissident K'Kree in makes one of their khuna an Earl, and gives him the
mission of stopping the raiders.  The K'Kree get to stomp the hell out of
some G'naack, the Duke gets some new taxpayers, and the K'Kree get a world.

K'Kree would probably choose more traditional images, such as the pole arm
that the ceremonial guards carry, or a representation of the Two Thousand
Worlds as seen for Kirur.  Since K'Kree depend on smell, K'Kree arms might
have a strong olfactory content.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 17:59:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Richard Hough wrote:

> Strange that all those skyscrapers, which are far taller than six times
> their height, manage to stay up perfectly fine and don't get blown over by
> breezes. If the ship is unstable it will be unstable no matter what it's
> deck orientation. Ocean ships, which have decks parallel to their long
> axis, can be unstable and fall over.

Those skyscrapers are securly fastened to the ground, so they are not
really a valid argument in this situation. The problem with ships like
needle formed one are that they need good level surfaces to land. It has
to keep its center of mass within the area that is defined by its landing
legs. Once that center of mass wanders outside one of the landing legs it
will fall over. So as long as most of the drives and other heavy stuff is
located in the aft of the ship there are no problem for ships like these
to land put if the ground under one landing leg gives out your in a
trouble, so I wouldn't do this to exploratory ships.

> Ships do not get "tossed to the ground". They land balanced or they will
> crash, no matter how their decks are aligned. Changing the deck orientation
> will not make an unbalanced ship balanced and "tossing" a ship with
> parallel decks and thrust axis at the ground has just as low a chance at
> landing perfectly. There are vehicles, like the mars lander, which are
> designed to land at any orientation and they have a design far different
> from anything shown on a Traveller starship. Configuration has nothing to
> do with it; you can design a flat slab or tall needle to land at any
> orientation and stay up.

This is not really true, as the center of mass has to be within the area
that makes up the landingarea.

> Moreover, this balance must be maintaned at all times regardless of whether
> it is sitting on the ground or flying in space. Consider that a reaction
> drive generates all its thrust at the engine, which even in the
> parallel-axis ships is usually located at the far end of the ship. In order
> for the ship to fly straight it must be stable along the long axis, at
> whatever gees the ship is capable of. If a ship is not going to tumble
> accelerating in space at 3 gees it certainly will not topple sitting on the
> ground at 1 gee. However, your parallel-axis ship must be stable along
> multiple axes, and in the transition as it flys. Ships with perpendicular
> decks and thrust axes have none of these constraints.

This is not really true. Because it is the momentum that decides if the
ships tumbles in flight. If the thrusters force has a momentum that is
zero with respect to the center of mass it will not tumble in flight, but
on the ground the gravitasjon always acts through the center of mass and
therefor gives no momentum. The important factor is the center of mass
with respect to the landingarea. 

> What? You have been claiming all along that a parallel orientation is
> better if a ship lands! Did you make a mistake or are you claiming it is
> only better in space? In space it is still worse because you need an extra
> gee of compensation to counteract the ship's acceleration.

I think he meant gravity parallell to the thrusters :-) 

I still wonder though how the spinning of the ship to deaccelerate will
affect the two orientations?
 

> Unfortunately, landing in a ship with parallel decks and thrust will make
> the problems of varying ship orientation, shifting cargo, multiple stable
> axes, and landing area worse.

But still it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem from our experience
with planes :-)

> True, in jump space the deck orientation is irrelevant, so a perpendicular
> orientation is no advantage. It is only better when there is an external
> force, like an acceleration or gravity field.

I don't really see why it is better in a gravity field. Have you given any
convincing arguments for this?

> I think you have your terms swapped; ships with decks perpendicular to main
> engine thrust are still safe and usable even if contragrav and inertial
> compensators didn't exist; parallel decks and thrust are unusable without
> them.

As long as the ship goes in a straight line this is true. When spinnig to
change direction or when affected by winds or other forces the cargo
better be securly fastened no matter what type of orientation the decks
have. ANd the amount of ships that go only in straight lines are quite few
:-)

> Even if contragrav and internal compensators were totally reliable, never
> failed, and used no power, it is still economically unsound to use
> spaceships with parallel decks and thrust axes for the reasons I have
> already gone into detail for.

Again as long as there are no spinning or other non-thrust forces working
on the ship. A ship with perpendicular decks is going to have a hard time
going into any gravity field if the cargo is not securly fastened as it
then needs to keep its aft pointed directly at the gravitating bodies
center of mass, so doing any type of course changes is effectivly
impossible.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:12:36 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you...

In a message dated 8/29/98 10:27:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Standard policy would be to transport EPWs to the rear, preferably off
 planet, as quickly as possible for interrogation and safety.  Once on a
 rear area planet, the danger of teleporting prisoners is lower, but
 psi-shields and dampers are still used.
>>

1. Zho are human.
2. This isn't America (or even Earth) with the standard Geneva Convention.

ergo. I would drug them. Captured Zho officers get an automatic injector of a
mind-numbing drug. and continuing doses during their captivity.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:54:20 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: How do you...

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: How do you...


>In a message dated 8/29/98 10:27:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< Standard policy would be to transport EPWs to the rear, preferably off
> planet, as quickly as possible for interrogation and safety.  Once on a
> rear area planet, the danger of teleporting prisoners is lower, but
> psi-shields and dampers are still used.
>>>
>
>1. Zho are human.
>2. This isn't America (or even Earth) with the standard Geneva Convention.
>
>ergo. I would drug them. Captured Zho officers get an automatic injector of
a
>mind-numbing drug. and continuing doses during their captivity.
>
>Marc
>
Ok, to throw a little more wood on the fire here, since the Psi
Suppressions, psionics have been illegal. How does the 3I deal with this? Is
it illegal to demonstrate psionic abilities, or to have them? If it's
illegal to have them, how are they found? Do they use supressive drugs,
perhaps the same as Marc suggests or depend on psi's NOT to use their
abilities ?

In MTU I take the "illegal to use" path, with repeat offenders subjected to
prision and/or equipt with a small devise that automatically injects them
with suppressive drugs. The device must be re-charged once per month, at a
parole office, since it is surgically implanted and "tamper-proof". If the
charge is left run down the device emmits a radio signal to local law
inforcement.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:36:45 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD-ROM

	The disk currently contains about 360 megabytes worth of material and
is growing daily. For a slightly outdated list send private email.

	Cost is $20 (U.S.), money order preferred.

	Send to:
Bryan J. Borich
3890 50th street
San Diego, CA 92105-3005


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:40:30 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: TTC

	TTC negotiations with Marc are ongoing. There have been a few snags
however.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:47:16 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

It is also easier to unload cargo from a "wet ship" layout at facilities that
are primitive, since the cargo deck is close to the ground (see the 3 traders
(fat,far,free)).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:01:27 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Prison Planet

Does anyone have an extra copy of Prison Planet (LBB adven# 8) for sale, or
know where there is one for sale?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:27:59 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: How do you...

At 03:31 AM 8/29/98 , Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
>> incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
>> incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
>> and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
>> that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
>> psionicly adept?
>
>I'd say that a psi shield will block teleportation. 

Well i would say that Psi Shields block the Teleporter's ability to see
where he/she is going to Port to, with out such *needed* *Visual*
information such a Port would be suicide if at all possible.

>Alternatively, given that things like clothes and armor go with the guy
>when he ports, I'd say that anything "connected" to him has to go
>along, and that "connected" is loose enough that a cain connecting him
>to something solid will count.

Well from T4 the T'Porter can choose how much he/she wants to take along so
unless the chain was implanted into the body this will not be very workable.

>So you just keep him chained to either something solid or when moving
>him around, to a couple of guards with guns. He ports, he has to take
>them with him, and they shoot him. 

See the above

>To avoid telekinetics picking locks, I'd *weld* or *rivet* the
>bracelet/anklet onto Zhodani prisoners. I rather suspect that this is
>how the Zhodani themselves handle the situation when they have to
>imprison someone *without* burning out their psi centers.

A more efficient system would be to administer a *drug* that block the
receptor sites for pis activity. But putting such a drug in food and water
etc, would be a maintenance head ache at the very least. 

A better method would be like a "Norplant" type of sub dermal drug device,
and place it on very visible surface like the cheek or forehead, that way
the bulge could easily spotted by security personnel and monitoring
devices. You could even have the implant color the skin around it a very
visible color like bright green.

For a *secure* method of keeping Porters in detention you could also
implant a explosive charge under the skin near something vital, like the
spinal cord. Set to go boom if the Porter leaves the areas defined by a
emitted signal.

The best method for Kinetics would be the psi activity block drug implant.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:30:49 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: How do you...

At 10:06 AM 8/29/98 , Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>snip<
>EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War) uniforms would include a psi shield.  EPW
>facilities would be built with larger fields.  While being transported from
>the point of capture to the EPW collection point, care must be taken to
>keep the prisoners from identifying landmarks that might aid escape attempts.

I thought that the Psi shield was a helmet like device in all versions of
Traveller?

>snip<

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:50:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: How do you...

At 01:30 PM 8/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:06 AM 8/29/98 , Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>snip<
>>EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War) uniforms would include a psi shield.  EPW
>>facilities would be built with larger fields.  While being transported from
>>the point of capture to the EPW collection point, care must be taken to
>>keep the prisoners from identifying landmarks that might aid escape
attempts.
>
>I thought that the Psi shield was a helmet like device in all versions of
>Traveller?

Personal shields are, but it has been mentioned in several places that you
cna shield larger areas as well.  IMTU, every contract for military
vehicles in the Spinward Marches includes a requirement for psi-shielding.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
"Come to Life, Iron Chef!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:45:21 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

In message <aa607547.35e7347a@aol.com>, Sethkimmel@aol.com writes
> My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
>metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts weeny.
>What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?

IIRC alkali metals are transparent to UV, just don't don't refuel from
oceans.

Is transparent metal as non-hard sf as psionics?
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:08:04 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you...

I also remember that both Mercenary and Zhodani module mention that you can
add Psi shielding to combat armor and battledress.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:04:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

> > Or when the instruments are out.  The best sensors in the universe won't do 
> > you much good if there's no power to them.
> 
> Which was why I mentioned that it's perfectly doable to have purely
> *optical* "viewscreens". Lenses, prisms and mirrors. And a few
> mechanical linkages (which would be in the bridge, not out at the
> lenses). So you are watching a "projected" view from whichever lens
> you've selected. And you select via what is essentially a mirror
> behind the screen. So if something breaks, you can open a panel and
> move the thing by hauling on a rope or something. 

Optics *break*.  They *also* can become misaligned.  Not exactly what you 
*want* to have happen if/when you need them.  If you're in deep enough that 
you need to see out, odds are you need undistorted viewing.  The projection 
equipment will take up valuable cubic; a simple viewport won't.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:08:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:16:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
>> metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts
>> weeny.
>> What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?

The same properties that cause a metal to be a metal also make it
non-transparent.

You could have, however, a tranparent material that is strong (along
the lines of ceramics).  However, if you are talking an armored ship,
the hull presumably is already made of the best material for the job.
Unless the material is already transparent (in which case the hull
will be mostly transparent) then transparent section will have
to be sacrificing something in terms if strenght or weight.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:47:12 +1000
From: Morgan <jasper@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #761

Phillip McGregor wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 04:56:23 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:42:24 +0800
> >From: Benjamin Barton <aramis3d@iinet.net.au>
> >Subject: Re: A plague on all your houses
> >
> >What has something happened to our Aborigines?
> >What Fate ?   let us know what you have been told.
> >As another Australian,  what has this to do with Traveller?
> >>
> >>> > > Phil
> >>> Should we hold you responsible for the fate of the Aboriginies?
> >>
> >>Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
> >>Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
>
> No, its not something *I* said ... I know that the Koori (let's be politically
> correct here) survived the white "invasion" ... about as well as the American
> Indian did.
>
> Phil
>

 Yes, but the question is, how much longer should the citizens of the countries be
held to guilt for something that was done by their ancestors before they were born?
Just when should the guilt stop. The colony mentality was very much a product of the
technology and the attitudes of the times. Just because attitudes have become more
'enlightened', should all these revisionists be going back and making us all suffer
for what our forebears did.

The colonial atitude may have been wrong. Certainly horrors were commited, diseases
introduced (many by those meaning well!). But should I born nearly 200 years later
be held to pay.

The problem is that governments tend to do what they think will earn political
support. If you look at Australia, look at the gap in opinion between those in the
cities and those in the country. And what all those observers seem to forget is that
all these legal battles which are fought, ultimately decided by political
correctness at the time, are funded on both sides by the poor average taxpayer of
the country, stretching into hundreds of millions of dollars. The only winners are
the lawyers, a few people at the top of the native peoples, and the politicians
whose huge pensions rise with a couple of extra years in politics.
The native people see no real benefit, neither does the poor bloody taxpayer. And
what happens when the elders of the aborigines try to restore some of their native
culture?
Well in one community just north of Cairns, the elders tried to clean up the alcohol
situation by closing the canteen except for extremely limited hours. Others in the
community then took the matter to court stating that their human rights had been
infringed by not allowing them to drink. Take it one way or the other, local issues
should be local issues, with wider governments setting down general rules.

The 3rd Imperium wouldn't even worry about issues like this. They lay down general
guidelines, and let the planet itself sort out the local citizenry. This prevents
the 3I gov from becoming involved wherever possible. It also shields them from the
backlash that inevitably comes when the winds of PC blow the other way.

Morgan
"A human being has no natural rights of any nature."
- - Robert A Heinlein, Starship troopers

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 17:46:58 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

What about a small transparent dome big enough for a humanoid to stick its'
head out and take star sights and observe. Needless to say; this dome should
be isolated in its' own small airtight compartment. This seems like a good
backup for an enclosed bridge.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 17:45:48 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Additional wealth for PC's?

I was checking out the archives for GURPSnet, and there was a discussion on
how to give a starship to PC's without making them at least Very Wealthy
(as in multi-million credit wealth).  Various solutions were offered, from
not counting loan's as wealth to making the ship owned by a patron.

Fair enough: most PC groups are trader's, mercenaries or scout's, working
on contract or as a business with the typical debt load, trying to make
end's meet.
However, it would be interesting to see campagins based on wealthy
PC's: the problem being how the Referee control's the players, with a total
wealth
of say 300 MCr.

For argument's sake,  let's divide the wealth up as...
 200 MCr - in a family-run business, only present on one world with
                   a population at the "mid-pop" level (millions - 100's of
millions).
                   This business currently has a light debt load of 30 MCr,
and
                   generate's a regular profit of 4 MCr per year on average.
   50 MCr - in actual private wealth: land, government debt instrument's,
                   stock's, precious metal's, etc.  Maybe 5 MCr is available
for
                   discrectionary spending, and of that, usually only 1 MCr
is
                   available for "active vacations".
   50 MCr - in a small yatch/courier starship, usually chartered out, used
as a
                   familly/corporate courier, or decked out to impress
businessmen.
                   However, for two month's of every year, it's available
for use
                   by the PC's for their "vacation".

The Imperium is so large and wealthy that this level of money is not even
noticed
by High Society, even in a backwater like the Spinward Marches.  Still,
it's enough to support regular adventuring, and even afford a few things
like
a mercenary platoon, constructing a base camp on an airless world, paying
for closely-held information/original research, or paying the entry cost's
of a
particular in-group.

Note that wealth in the 100's of MCr is noticable on a world in the mid-pop
level: these folk could be the richest folk on the planet, or number in at
least the
top 100. Their actions will be followed in such a small society, even if
only by
rumour.  This is doubly true if they are Imperial nobles, even if they are
only
knight's or a baronet.

Roleplaying wealth of the Billion's of credit's plus is not covered in my
post,
and would be difficult to roleplay: the PC's are too likely to disintergrate
into hedonsm or become pure political/financial roleplaying (aka little or
no action)
at that level of wealth [1].  I don't have Pocket Empires, but I have heard
of it:
it may help out in playing such people.

Regarding clique's: different group's often require different level's of
cost, and sometimes payment by different coin, too.  Being part of the Fifth
Frontier War
fraternity of veteran's requires different form's of payment - and gives you
different
benefit's - than being part of the Royal Explorer's Society, or the
Kitchener Group
of nobles, or the Stellar Cross of Christian activists.

Wealthy patron's will often form their own groups, which they can use to
meet their
own social goals.  These groups will cost good money and time, if you really
do
want the group to grow in influence and power.  Control of the group may be
taken
from the founder as it grows by a rival, or simply rip itself apart due to
personality
conflict's.

The most prestigous groups are groups of very powerful peer's: say, the
Amanda Network [2], composed of Dukes, which provides charity for selected
worthy causes (Serious money and time is expected by these groups,
and often there are noble prerequisite's as well.  As the Imperium is a
race-
conscious society, there may well be racial conditions as well, although the
Imperial dynasties has a tradition of ignoring such differences, and
everyone
want's to imitate the Emperor's tolerance, at least in High Society.

Anyway's Keeping Up Apperances can be a major drain of wealth for ambitious
PC's, despite their wealth.  This is especially true if they aspire to
upgrade their
station in life, and play the political game well.

Alvin Plummer

[1] Tell that to Dulinor!
[2] named after Duchess Amanda, known for her good work's during the regin
of Paulo I [736-767].  All organizations are strictly "IMTU".

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #784
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 785



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sorry about that last post.
Re: Military service
Psi Shielding was "How Do You.."
Psi Shielding was Re: How do you...
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...
Re: Additional wealth for PC's?
Re: Psi Shielding was "How Do You.." 
QSDS HTML Output
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: How do you...
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Wipeout or I can land it 
Re: Starship deck orientation
To Doug Roberts <dgr@sk.sympatico.ca>
Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Military service
re:Deckplans
Re: Starship deck orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:11:23 +1000
From: Morgan <jasper@uq.net.au>
Subject: Sorry about that last post.

Sorry about that last post.

Intention was to point out that the 3rd Imperium knew that it couldn't work when
dealing with planetary cultures and just decided to take the broadest way around
it.

Topic dropped.

Uuuugh, it's too early on a Sunday morning for this (300 e-mails).

Morgan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:53:47 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Military service

In a message dated 8/21/98 10:11:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, markc@peak.org
writes:

<< Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com) writes:
 
 > Please take this as the serious non-judgemental question that it is?
 > Is there ANYTHING you would fight and die for?
 
 I assume this question is aimed at the TML readership in general.
  >>


It was a serious question directed to Jens, but I forgot to put his name on
it.  But any comments from the list are appreciated. (I think this has turned
into a barbeque though; I've been inthe hospital and out of the loop for about
a week and a half.)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:12:27 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Psi Shielding was "How Do You.."

At 03:08 PM 8/29/98 , Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>I also remember that both Mercenary and Zhodani module mention that you can
>add Psi shielding to combat armor and battledress.

Hmm again a helmet is used in those armor types so a psi shield would be
added to the helmet. I don't know if that is spelled out explicitly or not
though but it has been *assumed* both myself and my players.<G>

Sam Thomas
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:17:05 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Psi Shielding was Re: How do you...

At 01:50 PM 8/29/98 , Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 01:30 PM 8/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 10:06 AM 8/29/98 , Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>snip<
>>>EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War) uniforms would include a psi shield.  EPW
>>>facilities would be built with larger fields.  While being transported from
>>>the point of capture to the EPW collection point, care must be taken to
>>>keep the prisoners from identifying landmarks that might aid escape
>attempts.
>>
>>I thought that the Psi shield was a helmet like device in all versions of
>>Traveller?
>
>Personal shields are, but it has been mentioned in several places that you
>cna shield larger areas as well.  IMTU, every contract for military
>vehicles in the Spinward Marches includes a requirement for psi-shielding.

From my understanding this is workable, a side effect would also shield the
occupants from NAS scanners as well. But personal psi shields would be
helmet like devices, which could have the visor with a blanking funtion to
prevent the EPW from seeing out.

Sam Thomas
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:45:10 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

At 23:33 28/08/98 EDT, Gary wrote:

>Mmm...  need to reread RSB, Rupert.  Particularly the part about Supranormal
>Theory (in the ref's section especially).  It's only the artificial psi's who
>are dependent on EM patterns for telepathy.  Natural telepathy goes into a
>different dimension or something like that.  That's how the theory goes,
>anyways. ; )  The theory was left unexplored due to the death of GDW so it's
>validitity is up to you, though i'd bank on it being relatively true.  There
>is precedent in CT adventures.  Also i'd bank on a twist in there somewhere.
>TNE epitomized the best of Traveller (turning things around ala the Aslan and
>J-drive, Solomani and the Rebellion, etc etc).

I don't have the RSB, unfortunately (I foolishly decided I didn't need any
Regency stuff right away, and then GDW went bust :( As soon as I posted
this I realised that I was wrong, anyway. There's the Longbow project, and
Empress Wave, etc, etc.
 
- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:04:23 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

What are the most common "Incident's" that old
navy men would harrass/freak out the new guy's with?

As an example, there is this naval tale from
sci.military.naval....

>I knew a Master Chief Boatswain who saw this happen on a US warship when he
>was a deck Seaman. The anchor winch went kaka and some poor sap got drug
>through the 14" round guide bit and into the water. The Chief said the guys
>body didn't have an unbroken bone in it when they hauled him back up onto
>deck after fishing the corpse out of the drink. This, of course, was his
>standard safety speech whenever we were doing anchor ops.

Now, there is certainly going to be a lot of grinding gears on large space
vessels, but I'm looking for stufff distinctly space-flavoured.
Say, failure of vacc suit's during EVA operations, gas giant refuelling
gone bad, poorly maintained vechiles going BOOM when the liquid hydrogen
decides that it's had enough.  At a guess, the typical "Incident"
involves...

Nit-wit nobility
Hydrogen.  Lot's of hydrogen
poorly maintained equipment
hard vacuum
culture shock
Artifical Intelligence
out-of-date information
Imperial Design Specifications
fresh-faced recruits
heavy machinery
Solomani curiosity
fusion power plants
jump-drive failure
the X-boat network
the natives
Vilani tradition
electricity
bureaucract's
low berth's
undetected microfractures
Starport control
gravity well's
power outages
Gas Giant skimming
hull breaches
Imperial Warrent's

Any more?

Alvin Plummer
"A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down"
       - Murphy's Law of Combat Operations, #4.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:17:20 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Crowns, diadem's and suchlike...

> Imagine introducing a Newt noble at a reception
>with *all* honors and titles..

You, sir, are a cruel and twisted man  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:29:29 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Additional wealth for PC's?

"alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> writes:
>the problem being how the Referee control's the players, with a total
>wealth
 
>of say 300 MCr.

Not a problem if you have good players. Before starting the campaign, just
decide what the rich characters mptivations will be, and make certain that
"getting richer" isn't on the list.

For example, a decade ago I played a noble in a Spinward Marches campaign.
He was a lot wealthier than all of the other players: personal yacht,
income from estates sufficient for upkeep plus staff, naval half-pay, TAS
membership... He was so rich, in fact, that I never bothered keeping track
of money except when he needed to carry cash. The campaign was fun,
though, because money just meant that the group could use decent equipment
and concentrate on what he thought was the real mission: tracking down and
deactivating all the nukes left over from the Fifth Frontier War. IIRC we
never actually found one, but the referee had us chasing over the Marches
following rumours, and generally taking every chance we had to do a good
deed (noblesse oblige and all that).

I've also found, as a referee, that having clear non-monetary character
motivations and goals also tends to cut down on the "will do anything for
a credit" mentality.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:18:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Psi Shielding was "How Do You.." 

> At 03:08 PM 8/29/98 , Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> >I also remember that both Mercenary and Zhodani module mention that you can
> >add Psi shielding to combat armor and battledress.
> 
> Hmm again a helmet is used in those armor types so a psi shield would be
> added to the helmet. I don't know if that is spelled out explicitly or not
> though but it has been *assumed* both myself and my players.<G>

I've always taken the psi shielding in a helmet to mean that the wearer's mind 
can't be read.  Doesn't do a *thing* to prevent teleportation or telekinesis.

IMTU, to stop a tport from teleporting, you shoot him up with psi-stop.  Or 
knock him out and get him under cover someplace to where if he teleports out, 
he blows it bigtime.  Ever read 'The Stars My Destination'?  Teeps IMTU have 
to know where they *are* as well as where they're *going* in order to 
teleport, unless they wanna teleport straight up.  <grin>

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:09:42 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: QSDS HTML Output

I used QSDS to design a simple starship, and posted the HTML file to my
Traveller web site. I'm now soliciting feedback on the format of the HTML
output. (Not the ship, I know that it's a quick hack.)

www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9135

and navigate to the travller starship listings (one click).

You'll also find a lot of Traveller language tables, complete plans (25mm
scale, colour) for the Shadows adventure, and a lot of Space 1889
deckplans (also 25mm, colour).

I had to manually add the HTML for the Geocities logo and stuff, so those
of you interested in getting the software don't have to worry about
exporting pages intended to Goecities :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:43:25 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>Those skyscrapers are securly fastened to the ground, so they are not
>really a valid argument in this situation. The problem with ships like
>needle formed one are that they need good level surfaces to land. It has
>to keep its center of mass within the area that is defined by its landing
>legs. Once that center of mass wanders outside one of the landing legs it
>will fall over. So as long as most of the drives and other heavy stuff is
>located in the aft of the ship there are no problem for ships like these
>to land put if the ground under one landing leg gives out your in a
>trouble, so I wouldn't do this to exploratory ships.

Tommy, I hope you're sitting down for this, but skyscrapers are not
"securely fastened to the ground". The shape of a skyscraper is itself
stable and does not need to be fastened to the ground or anything else to
stay up. In fact, some kinds of earthquake protection mount skyscrapers on
huge pads or frames which *are not even physically connected to the
ground*, someone like Superman could actually push them around like blocks
and they would stay up as long as the ground could support them. The reason
skyscrapers have those deep pilings and huge foundations is not to glue
them to the ground but to support their enormous weight. Without it they
would sink in the "solid" ground like it was sand.

 As for the center of mass moving outside the landing area, this is true
for anything; ships with parallel decks, perpendicular decks, vehicles,
people, animals, even rocks.  If a landing leg gives out, changing your
deck orientation is not going to rescue you. If this is going to be a
problem with exploratory ships it should not use landing legs.

But it should use decks perpendicular to thrust.

[snippage]
>> Configuration has nothing to
>> do with it; you can design a flat slab or tall needle to land at any
>> orientation and stay up.
>
>This is not really true, as the center of mass has to be within the area
>that makes up the landingarea.

It it true and it is in the landing area. Take any of the standard starship
starship shapes, turn it to whatever orientation you want. Now draw lines
down from the outside of the shape and its centre of mass. The centre of
mass line will always lie inside the outer lines. The outer lines are the
landing area. Now you can make weird concave shapes where this is not true,
but for the standard starship shapes this will always be true.

>> Unfortunately, landing in a ship with parallel decks and thrust will make
>> the problems of varying ship orientation, shifting cargo, multiple stable
>> axes, and landing area worse.
>
>But still it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem from our experience
>with planes :-)

Airplanes are the shape they are for other reasons than optimizing
stability and landing area. Their thrust and lift technologies are totally
different, their environment is different, their control and navigation
methods are different. I hope your smiley means you realize this, but if
not please send me private mail. This is far too large a subject to
summarize.

Second, airplanes do have problems with varying ship orientation, shifting
cargo, and the rest. Passengers need seatbelts and cargo must be secured
because of the way way aircraft operate.

>I still wonder though how the spinning of the ship to deaccelerate will
>affect the two orientations?

The moment of inertial for the shapes are the same, their deck orientation
will have no effect.

>> True, in jump space the deck orientation is irrelevant, so a perpendicular
>> orientation is no advantage. It is only better when there is an external
>> force, like an acceleration or gravity field.
>
>I don't really see why it is better in a gravity field. Have you given any
>convincing arguments for this?

Dear God, do I have to go through all this again? If you do not understand
this please send me private email so I don't keep going over the same
points repeatedly. If I made any mistakes I will post a synopsis to the
list.

>As long as the ship goes in a straight line this is true. When spining to
>change direction or when affected by winds or other forces the cargo
>better be securly fastened no matter what type of orientation the decks
>have. ANd the amount of ships that go only in straight lines are quite few

Depends what you mean by a "straight line". If you mean the ship only moves
in a straight line, then you are correct. If you mean the acceleration is
always in the same direction then you are incorrect. And a "straight line"
from the point of reference of someone inside the ship is the second one. A
ship turns while changing direction so the sum of external forces is always
in the same direction. A ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust axis
can fly corkscrews with *no* inertial compensation without changing the
direction of acceleration inside. You could put a bowling ball on the floor
and it wouldn't roll. A ship with decks parallel to the thrust axis cannot
do that, the bowling ball would begin to roll as soon as the ship moved.

>Again as long as there are no spinning or other non-thrust forces working
>on the ship.

Any ship rotation in combat or landing is so minor compared to the main
drive's acceleration that these forces will be negligible. If you mean
spinning the ship with forces comparable to the main thrust, like in a
centrifuge, then any ship with any deck orientation is in big trouble. The
ship may not even hold together.

>A ship with perpendicular decks is going to have a hard time
>going into any gravity field if the cargo is not securly fastened as it
>then needs to keep its aft pointed directly at the gravitating bodies
>center of mass, so doing any type of course changes is effectivly
>impossible.

Tommy, this is simply not true. A ship with perpendicular decks carrying a
bowling ball balanced on a thimble on the deck could take off, follow a
roller coaster track at 4 gees, spinning and flopping all over the place,
then land, on a 2 gee planet, with no inertial compensators, and if flown
precisely enough the bowling ball wouldn't budge because the direction of
the cumulative acceleration vectors would not change. This is physically
impossible on a ship with parallel decks.

If you don't believe this please study a physics textbook first. I don't
mean to be patronizing and I apologise if you take it this way, but it is
impossible for me to explain this any better unless you understand vector
addition of forces. Personal experiences with airplanes and automobiles do
not prepare one for the physical properties of acceleration in space.

>It is also easier to unload cargo from a "wet ship" layout at facilities that
>are primitive, since the cargo deck is close to the ground (see the 3 traders
>(fat,far,free)).

So build the cargo deck close to the ground. True, you can't do that with a
needle or wedge configurations, so use a disk or slab.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:21:20 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

Hmm... How about starting with AHL? The canon says that even though the class
is semi-streamlined and can skim gas giants; she carries fuel tenders to do it
for her. There are rules for some VERY ugly skimming failures, up to and
including a one way trip down the bottom of the gravity well (ouch!).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:21:28 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you...

Regarding psi-shields, my understanding from CT materials was that they were
stricly telepathy-blockers, merely keeping your mind from warped, unnatural
forms of penetration by goateed aliens, and had no effect on any other form of
psionic talents.  Thus, there was no way to 'shield' an area against
teleporters (which, IIRC, was a major plot element in the Broadsword l.b.b.'s
scenarios).  Is this correct, and/or has it changed in later incarnations of
Traveller?

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:20:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

You guys realize that nothing forces you to put the axis of thrust parallel to the
long axis of the ship.  One could design a ship with thrusters at both ends of a
long spine.  I could see some maneuverability advantages of that as well as
dispersing your heat signature.  I can even envision an airframe similar to that
plane that circled the Earth.  I don't think you could manage a supersonic
airframe though, since it produces too large a cross sectional area.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:05:48 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it 

Ships whose decks are laid out perpendicular to the ground will (using
most types of hulls) have fewer decks than ships the same size that are
laid out parallel to the ground.  Therefore they will need more stairs,
ramps, companionways, elevators, float tubes, etc than ships laid out
parallel to the ground.  Therefore they will have more wasted space &
less usefull interior space than ships laid our parallel to the ground. 
(They will, of coures not need as much space for corridors but stairs
take up more space than corridors).

Therefore a ship designed with parallel decks will have a bit more
usefull interior space.  Of course this is a small effect & is not
reflected by any current starship design sequences.

It is also possible that ships with parallel decks may be cheaper to
build, at least in gravity, because fewer members of the construction
crews will have to be up on scaffolding during construction, as the ship
will not extend as far in the air.  (Of course in most cases
construction _can_ be done from inside the ship but this makes it harder
to use power moving equiptment while building the ship.)

- -- 
"I have news for NASA.  We're already on planet Earth.  It's the other
places we haven't been to.  It used to be NASA's mission to get us
there." - Charles Krauthammer, the Washington Post, December 6, 1996

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:18:09 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> writes:
>The reason Traveller ships have parallel decks and thrust is because they
>were designed by 20th-century artists who think starships are a kind of
>airplane

>Parallel decks and thrust have a high cost and no
>benefit at all, in fact they are disadvantageous.

Actually, ease-of-access is a reasonably good reason for designing decks
parallel. It's a _lot_ easier (and faster) to walk down a corridor than to
climb a ladder. This is a pretty decent reason for having corridors,
especially in smaller ships.

As for combat, assuming that the ship can manage more than 1G, few
crewmembers will be travelling unaided anyway. 

(I'd still put the bridge at the centre of the ship, though.)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1998 00:00:00 +0000
From: lars@orplid.shnet.org (Lars Becker)
Subject: To Doug Roberts <dgr@sk.sympatico.ca>

Hi Andy,

> <my apologies to the TML/TravTech lists at large, but I don't
> know which list Doug subscribes too...>

there exist a traveller tech list? could you please tell me the adress?

thanks,
- - Lars.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:19:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The Moot and dissolving the Imperium

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> The Moot didn't dissolve the Imperium because it was the Moot that fragmented
> along the faction lines and flocked to the various factions.  The Imperial
> bureaucracy stayed w/ Lucan, but the rest was split.  The reason Lucan
> wouldn't let the Moot stay was because it had a damned good probability of
> going for Dulinor.  That was Lucan's fear, anyways.  

Lucan also _always_ acted the guilty fratricidal maniac he was. He had his
great overwhelming lie to uphold, that someone else had killed his brother
Varian, and it ate him up, which is why the later psychotic behavior.

IMHO, of course....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:41:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

alvin plummer wrote:
> 
> What are the most common "Incident's" that old
> navy men would harrass/freak out the new guy's with?
> 
> As an example, there is this naval tale from
> sci.military.naval....
 Gory stuff snipped
> 
> Any more?

Coolant line blowouts...if the GM's _nice_ it's live steam...if not, it
something else used as goolant. Like liquid sodium, gadolinium or something...

"Yar..I was the first into the engineering deck after the gado line ruptured.
We'd let everything cool down, but those metal-plated wretches...Gah! I'll
never forget that sight as long as I live. Frozen statues of agony. I still
have nightmares...

"So keep those coolant lines clear and denso'ed for cracks! I'd rather not
have my last milliseconds of torture preserved in metal!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 02:41:57 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

On 08/29/98 at 11:41 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Coolant line blowouts...if the GM's _nice_ it's live steam...if not,
>it something else used as goolant. Like liquid sodium, gadolinium or
>something...

And he speaks from experience! ;->

Eris,
    the _nice_ GM
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:25:36 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Military service

On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:

> << Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com) writes:
>  
>  > Please take this as the serious non-judgemental question that it is?
>  > Is there ANYTHING you would fight and die for?
>  
>  I assume this question is aimed at the TML readership in general.
>   >>
> 
> 
> It was a serious question directed to Jens, but I forgot to put his name on
> it.  But any comments from the list are appreciated. (I think this has turned
> into a barbeque though; I've been inthe hospital and out of the loop for about
> a week and a half.)

Since the question is specifically aimed at me, and on the list, I'll have
to answer it. I have otherwise stopped sending mail on this topic to the
list (although I will carry on conversations on private mail if asked to).

The question then...

No, I would not fight and die for anything, at least not now. The answer
might change if I, for example, get married or have kids. You might call
me a coward and an egoist, but I more figure myself a realist. This point
of view has to do with my complete lack of belief in any form of
afterlife. I believe that if I am dead, nothing at all will ever matter to
me anymore. In the words of T. Pratchet:

"Ideas are not worth dying for, they are worth living for."

Probably one of the most serious quotes possible from HIS books ;-)

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
|               In politics, left is right!               |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:03:58 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re:Deckplans

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>What's happening here is the ships with decks perpendicular to main
>engine thrust were designed by people who think of contragrav and
>intertial compensators as standard safety features, so reliable that
>it's OK to have a ship that's unusable when they're offline.

I think you have your terms swapped; ships with decks perpendicular to main
engine thrust are still safe and usable even if contragrav and inertial
compensators didn't exist; parallel decks and thrust are unusable without
them.

Even if contragrav and internal compensators were totally reliable, never
failed, and used no power, it is still economically unsound to use
spaceships with parallel decks and thrust axes for the reasons I have
already gone into detail for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yup, swapped my terms, sorry.

Now let's see your deckplan for a small, streamlined cargo vessel that
allows drive-on/drive-off cargo loading like a 400tn subsidized merchant,
without using decks parallel to main engine thrust.

Richard again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>We've got some examples of assumptions like this today. How many
>airliners are equipped with high-altitude emergency escape
>capabilities? We've got the technology, but we don't see the need.

I agree. In Traveller, they have the technology to build starships with
parallel decks and thrust, even though there is no need. Airplanes aren't
equipped with high-altitude emergency escapes because the cost/benefit
ratio is near zero. Parallel decks and thrust have a high cost and no
benefit at all, in fact they are disadvantageous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for "benefits near zero":
With our current tech, a fighter pilot can survive almost any aircraft
failure short of a direct missile hit on the cockpit. If we dressed all
airplane passengers in flight suits with backup oxygen tanks and 
strapped them into automated ejection seats, we'd have had survivors
from the Lockerbie crash and from the TWA that went down south of
Long Island.
Once upon a time, all aircraft were required to have enough 
parachutes on board for everyone.

As for "high cost":
Most Traveller spacecraft are built with artificial grav and inertial comp
anyway. If you have these systems, and trust them so much that
you think they'll never fail, you can put your decks upside down or
sideways if that suits you.

(Example: the CT Lab Ship has decks parallel to thrust, oriented
with feet down towards the outer hull - so you can turn off the
artificial grav and spin the ship, eliminating artificial gravity fields
as a extraneous variable in your research.)

Once you have a situation where inertial comp and arti-grav are
standard, included costs on a starship, any even minimally
advantageous deck orientation can be used - such as "airplane style"
layouts for ease in cargo transfer or easy accessibility for ground
crew.

Richard again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Strange that all those skyscrapers, which are far taller than six times
their height, manage to stay up perfectly fine and don't get blown over by
breezes. If the ship is unstable it will be unstable no matter what it's
deck orientation. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
??????????!
Richard, you _are_ aware that skyscrapers have massive below-ground
support structures, without which they _would_ fall down, right?

A 70-meter long ship will be far more stable on it's side, sitting on
a tricycle (or more) landing gear than it will ever be sitting on it's 
tail. 


Walt Smith

btw -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:24:27 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Richard Hough wrote:

> Tommy, I hope you're sitting down for this, but skyscrapers are not
> "securely fastened to the ground". The shape of a skyscraper is itself
> stable and does not need to be fastened to the ground or anything else to
> stay up. In fact, some kinds of earthquake protection mount skyscrapers on
> huge pads or frames which *are not even physically connected to the
> ground*, someone like Superman could actually push them around like blocks
> and they would stay up as long as the ground could support them. The reason
> skyscrapers have those deep pilings and huge foundations is not to glue
> them to the ground but to support their enormous weight. Without it they
> would sink in the "solid" ground like it was sand.

But still they are much more fastened to the ground than a ship landing on
legs, and is not really a good example of the topic in this discussion.

>  As for the center of mass moving outside the landing area, this is true
> for anything; ships with parallel decks, perpendicular decks, vehicles,
> people, animals, even rocks.  If a landing leg gives out, changing your
> deck orientation is not going to rescue you. If this is going to be a
> problem with exploratory ships it should not use landing legs.

The point was that it is more likly for a ship with perpendicular decks to
by high, and should these fall over the damage is going to be much more
extensive. A ship with parallelle decks will fall maksimum a few meters to
the ground, while a needle ship with perpendicular decks can fall 20 - 30
meters before hiting the ground. 

> It it true and it is in the landing area. Take any of the standard starship
> starship shapes, turn it to whatever orientation you want. Now draw lines
> down from the outside of the shape and its centre of mass. The centre of
> mass line will always lie inside the outer lines. The outer lines are the
> landing area. Now you can make weird concave shapes where this is not true,
> but for the standard starship shapes this will always be true.

True :-)

> >I don't really see why it is better in a gravity field. Have you given any
> >convincing arguments for this?
> 
> Dear God, do I have to go through all this again? If you do not understand
> this please send me private email so I don't keep going over the same
> points repeatedly. If I made any mistakes I will post a synopsis to the
> list.

Calm down, dear sir. All I have seen so far as a good and solid argument
for perpendicular decks are the gravity issue. As someone else pointed
out, the cargo access problem is something that makes the parallelle decks
best. So I think you'll se both in the Imperium.

> Tommy, this is simply not true. A ship with perpendicular decks carrying a
> bowling ball balanced on a thimble on the deck could take off, follow a
> roller coaster track at 4 gees, spinning and flopping all over the place,
> then land, on a 2 gee planet, with no inertial compensators, and if flown
> precisely enough the bowling ball wouldn't budge because the direction of
> the cumulative acceleration vectors would not change. This is physically
> impossible on a ship with parallel decks.

I'm not following this (might be because I can't visualize it properly),
but it seems to me that the bowling ball is affected by two forces, the
normal force from the deck and the gravity force from the planet. Now
direction of the force from the planet is going to change rapidly if the
ship makes any manouvers. Why doesn't this make the ball move around? The
only way to keep the ball from not moving it to keep the normal force from
the deck pointing the opposite way of gravity force.  

 
> If you don't believe this please study a physics textbook first. I don't
> mean to be patronizing and I apologise if you take it this way, but it is
> impossible for me to explain this any better unless you understand vector
> addition of forces. Personal experiences with airplanes and automobiles do
> not prepare one for the physical properties of acceleration in space.

Im not talking about properties of acceleration in space, but the effect
of perpendicular decks on a ship in a gravity well.

> >It is also easier to unload cargo from a "wet ship" layout at facilities that
> >are primitive, since the cargo deck is close to the ground (see the 3 traders
> >(fat,far,free)).
> 
> So build the cargo deck close to the ground. True, you can't do that with a
> needle or wedge configurations, so use a disk or slab.

But if the decks are perpendicular to the thrust axis and we assume that
the thrusters have to stay in the aft of the ship (most ships have the
jump drive there to), the cargo decks on a "landing craft" has to removed
away from aft. A ship with perpendicular decks always has to land with its
aft towards the ground, so the cargo is some height up from the ground.

> --
> Richard Hough
> rdhough@home.com
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #785
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 786



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Starship Deck Orientation
re: Starship deck orientation
Anti-Hijack (was re: Expanding software...)
Raw Material prices in TNE
Re: Military service
Re: Starship deck orientation
Psionic societies
TTC
Mergon-class Heavy Freighter
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Psionic societies 
Re: Psionic societies 
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Starship deck orientation
re: Deckplans
Re: Psionic societies
1) Extract from GURPSnet  2) Imperial Honour Code

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:28:50 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Starship Deck Orientation

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tommy, I hope you're sitting down for this, but skyscrapers are not
"securely fastened to the ground". The shape of a skyscraper is itself
stable and does not need to be fastened to the ground or anything else to
stay up. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yup. When the World Trade Center sways ten meters off-line in
a wind, it's just the shape of the building that brings it back on-line.
The foundations have nothing to do with it. <g>

Rich, skyscrapers are stable as long as nothing happens to them.
Even the earthquake-proofing you mention (movable foundations)
have friction resistance and stop-blocks that limit how far 
the foundation can move, and what forces it will take to move it.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Starship deck orientation

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust axis
can fly corkscrews with *no* inertial compensation without changing the
direction of acceleration inside. You could put a bowling ball on the floor
and it wouldn't roll. A ship with decks parallel to the thrust axis cannot
do that, the bowling ball would begin to roll as soon as the ship moved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, no. If the thrust is always perpendicular to the decks, the ship
can never turn. You'll have to apply some maneuvering thrust to
get your corkscrews, and this maneuvering thrust _will_ make the
bowling ball roll.

Rich, I know you detest airplane deckplans, but you have to keep the
proper balance between comic-book and real-world physics here. <g>


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:47:18 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Anti-Hijack (was re: Expanding software...)

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Interesting idea but, again, not software.
>
>If the software doesn't anticipate the hardware, what use will it be?

Huh? All I am saying is that things like poison gas dispensers and
bioscanners are hardware, and must be purchased and installed separately
from software. If your software "anticipates" hardware that isn't there it
certainly will be of no use at all.

Anti-hijack is a MCr 0.1 computer program, and if buying a copy suddenly
makes hardware appear all over your multi-kiloton spacecraft this will
unbalance the game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Software Anticipate the Hardware" - Windows 95 has the drivers for
soundcards, CD-ROMs, network cards, etc. It's ready for you when you
buy compatible hardware, the hardware doesn't come with it.

If you buy Anti-Hijack without any hardware, it probably just acts
as a monitoring program - tells you that something in the cargo bay is
using up oxygen, for example, and tells you that the usage is
commensurate with five guys hiding in a cargo crate.

I'd imagine retina scanners, keypads and such being marketed in the
Imperium as "Designed for Anti-Hijack 1110" (or whatever).


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:06:57 +0300
From: Pietu <himberg.peter@hkol.fi>
Subject: Raw Material prices in TNE

Raw Material prices in TNE and World Tamer's Handbook

Have anybody wondered the prices of Raw Materials in TNE and World Tamer's
Handbook (WTH for now on)?  I just calculated that one metric tonne of Raw
Material costs Cr200.0 (WTH p.35, divide metric tonnes by 20 to get
displacement tons, which cost Cr4000).
	That would be ok, but in the Agricultural Sector one 'unit' needs 10 metric
tonnes of RM (at TL-9) to produce 33 rations. One ration is priced at Cr40
(again, WTH p.35), thus total value of output is Cr1320, when RM need is
Cr4000!?
	In the Industrial sector, it is even worse. One 'unit' needs 55 metric
tonnes of RM (at TL-9) to produce Cr2000. So input cost is Cr11,000, not to
mention Heavy industry!
	And there are also transporting costs, handling costs, labor salaries (in
Free Market economy, which I'm modelling), maintenance costs, etc.
	So how come? Any solutions?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:43:52 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Military service

At 12:25 PM 8/30/98 +0200, you wrote:

>No, I would not fight and die for anything, at least not now. The answer
>might change if I, for example, get married or have kids. You might call
>me a coward and an egoist, but I more figure myself a realist. This point
>of view has to do with my complete lack of belief in any form of
>afterlife. I believe that if I am dead, nothing at all will ever matter to
>me anymore. In the words of T. Pratchet:

"The American Paratrooper exists to give the enemy soldier the best chance
to die for his country."  -Gen. George Patton.

I don't know a single soldier who wants to "fight and die" for something.
We want to fight and live!  That is why armies train so hard, and demand
such a high level of discipline.

I guess the difference between Jens and me is that I'd put my life on the
line to defend his right to say what he wants.
- --

+------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+------------------------------------------+
| "or it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' | 
| "Chuck him out, the brute!"              |
| But it's "Saviour of 'is country"        |
| when the guns begin to shoot;"           |
+------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:07:36 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400, Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Richard Hough wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust axis
> can fly corkscrews with *no* inertial compensation without changing the
> direction of acceleration inside. You could put a bowling ball on the floor
> and it wouldn't roll. A ship with decks parallel to the thrust axis cannot
> do that, the bowling ball would begin to roll as soon as the ship moved.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Well, no. If the thrust is always perpendicular to the decks, the ship
> can never turn. You'll have to apply some maneuvering thrust to
> get your corkscrews, and this maneuvering thrust _will_ make the
> bowling ball roll.
> 
> Rich, I know you detest airplane deckplans, but you have to keep the
> proper balance between comic-book and real-world physics here. <g>

And as I stated earlier, it is extremely difficult to come up with a more
accessible ship layout than the traditional free/fat/far trader layout,
with fewer, larger decks.  The "skyscraper" stacking of decks works with
the AHL class of ships (and others of significantly large tonnages) because
the individual decks are large enough to be laid out without wasting a lot
of space (just look how many lifts and vertical access shafts the AHL class
has).  This technique just doesn't fly with most hull configurations in the
<1,000 ton range.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:58:16 -0400
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Psionic societies

Hi:

With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys and 
how do you imprison
a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the good 
guys, and they are the
central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

Matthew

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:58:53 -0400
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: TTC

What is TTC?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:21:44 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mergon-class Heavy Freighter

Mergon-class Heavy Freighter
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in the Quick Starship Design
System v1.5

UNIVERSAL SHIP DESCRIPTION

Tons 2000           Volume 28000                  Cost in MCr 464.840 
Crew: 9             High/Middle Passengers: 0/0                       
                    Low Passengers: 0                                 
Cargo: 1330 Std     Controls: Std                 TL: 10              

9 Size
1x ext. grapple (Launch)

1 Jump Drive
1 Maneuver Drive (HEPlaR, 1120 MW)
2 Power Plant
410.7 Fuel Rating
A0 P2 J0 Sensors
0 Armour, 16 Structure
Crew Detail:
Captain, 4 Engineers, 2 Electronic Technicians, 2 Maneuver Crewmembers

DESIGN SPREADSHEET

Item                              Volume     Power      Area      Cost    
 Crew
HULL
Open Frame U 2000                            547.0      82.5              
     
DRIVES
Jump drive (1 parsecs)              40.0               168.0     186.7    
  1.3
Jump fuel for 1 parsecs            200.0                                  
     
HEPlaR drive (1G)                    8.0    1120.0       1.1     112.0    
  0.3
Fuel for 10.0 hours                200.0                                  
     
Power plants: 2000MW x 1            71.4               200.0    2000.0    
  1.7
Power plant fuel (1 year)           10.7                                  
     
ELECTRONICS
Standard Civilian Controls           1.3       1.0       3.2       0.4    
     
Basic Sensors                        0.3      15.2       9.4      14.0    
  0.9
Basic Communications                           1.3       0.2      11.0    
  0.9
AUXILIARY CRAFT
CREW
Captain                                                                   
     
2 Maneuver Crewmembers                                                    
     
4 Engineers                                                               
     
2 Electronic Technicians                                                  
     
WORKSPACE
9x Workstations                      4.5                                  
     
Cargo Hold                        1330.2                                  
     
ACCOMODATIONS
8x Small Staterooms                 16.0       0.0       0.3              
     
1x Large Stateroom                   4.0       0.0       0.1              
     
TOTALS
                                  1908.4    1684.5     464.8    2900.1    
  9.0

Bulk transport between worlds is most efficiently done with large ships.
The Mergon-class, first built by Dajkoi Shipyards in -52, have proven
admirably suited to their task. Lacking all defenses, indeed beling little
more than a frame with engines, a lifepod, and cargo holds, the Mergon is
suitable only for Inner Sphere worlds, where Imperial Naval protection can
be taken for granted.

As is usual for open-frame ships, the Mergon class includes attachments
allowing cargo pods to be aligned either parallel or perpendicular to the
axis of thrust. Experienced shipped know that paying off the Dockers Guild
makes more difference to the safety of their cargo, anyway. :-)


(Designed with QSDS: Traveller's Quick Starship Design Software. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:11:24 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

At 09:04 PM 8/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>What are the most common "Incident's" that old
>navy men would harrass/freak out the new guy's with?

Sign in every airlock:

"Nature hates an atmosphere.
Check your suit
Check your buddy's suit."

With configurable controls, I could see problems with people using
unfamilar set-ups and not bothering to reconfigure.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:54:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies 

> Hi:
> 
> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys and 
> how do you imprison
> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the good 
> guys, and they are the
> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

I bet it'd be a blast.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:32:27 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies 

At 12:54 PM 8/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Hi:
>> 
>> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad
guys and 
>> how do you imprison
>> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the
good 
>> guys, and they are the
>> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?
>
>I bet it'd be a blast.

Before MT was released, I was involved in a campaign where the PC's were
involved in diplomatic contacts between the Zho's and the Solomani.  The
main topic was the "Imperial Menace."  It ran for a few years, and was
rather interesting.  My character, the head of the Zho group, never quite
understood why the Solomani called him "Yassir"...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net



http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:50:54 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Take a cylinder and lay it with its long axis parallel to the ground.
Add a pod centered on either side.
One pod is the engineering pod and contains power-plant, jump-drive and
half the thrusters as well as tools, spares and EVA equipment.
The other pod is the crew pod and contains flight and docking bridges, crew
quarters, life support and half the thrusters.
Fuel is stored in waste space in the central cylinder and/or in saddle tanks.

Assume that there are eight thruster plates in total. The outer two plates
on each side are fitted to swivel 15 degrees out (along long axis) within a
rigid force transmission cage. This provides gross manuvering thrust in a
gravity well. Delicate two-axis horizontal manuvers and twisting are
managed with verniers. The ship takes off and lands vertically like and
jump jet or helicopter.

This gives you a low cargo deck design with decks perpendicular to thrust.
The basic design is also scalable and very versatile.
The main bay (cylinder) can be left clear for the transport of bulky cargo
(e.g., other vehicles). Or it can be divided into two (or more) decks for
the efficient transport of container cargo. Hinge one end of the cylinder
and include an overhead track which extends beyond the deckplate and you
have integral cargo handling capabilities.
The main bay can also be configured to haul liquid gases. Or divided into
an upper deck for passengers and a lower cargo deck. In this configuration
the upper deck would contain cabins and lounges as well as life support and
escape equipment; everything for the care and feeding of passengers.

Entry of an atmosphere will always be turbulent. I envision passengers
packing their bags before entry, leaving their luggage in the loading lock
and gathering in the lounge where the recliners double as shock couches.
Strapped in they ride from orbit to landing, and do not move around the
cabin until the spacecraft has come to a complete stop :-)

If any of this seems familiar, i simply replaced the wings of an airpane
with pods. Passenger and cargo plane have decks perpendicular to lift. The
lift is transferred to the body of the plane at the wing roots.


Gordon Horne
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca
=======================
Saru mo ki kara ochiru.
=======================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:26:34 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>You guys realize that nothing forces you to put the axis of thrust
>parallel to the
>long axis of the ship.

Yes, this was mentioned quite a while ago. IIRC someone even had decks
plans for a disk-shaped craft with decks perpendicular to thrust posted on
their web page; it flies like a thrown pie.

>I can even envision an airframe similar to that
>plane that circled the Earth.  I don't think you could manage a supersonic
>airframe though, since it produces too large a cross sectional area.

The FF&S rules do not have an upper limit to size based on streamlining
option, nor does real life IMHO. You could make a flat sheet a kilometer
across that face-forward flies at supersonic speeds. This would be a very
inefficient design since it would lose a lot of energy to eddies, but it
could be done.

>Ships whose decks are laid out perpendicular to the ground will (using
>most types of hulls) have fewer decks than ships the same size that are
>laid out parallel to the ground.  Therefore they will need more stairs,
>ramps, companionways, elevators, float tubes, etc than ships laid out
>parallel to the ground.

I don't follow this exactly; my posts have been about ships with decks
perpendicular to the *ship's thrust axis*, which need have nothing to do
with their orientation relative to the "ground". Most ships with decks
perpendicular to the thrust axis will in fact be parallel to the ground, so
if this is what you mean your premise is false.

If you mean a ship with a needle or wedge configuration with decks parallel
to their thrust axis will have fewer decks than one with a perpendicular
thrust axis, then you are correct. I have no idea what the relative
proportions of hull types are in YTU.

>Therefore they will have more wasted space &
>less usefull interior space than ships laid our parallel to the ground.

This does not follow from either of your premises. Why is a cubic metre of
elevator "less useful" than one of corridor? Published deck plans show
elevators and ladders inside corridors, so they certainly don't need any
more space.

If you absolutely need long empty corridors in your needle ship, run it the
length of the spine and use gravity compensators to let passengers walk
"up" it. They can use a semicircular ramp to leave the ship or walk onto
decks. Ridiculous? Personally, I would never use it,  but you realize this
is exactly the sort of arrangement the parallel deck-crowd requires *every
time the ship moves*. If they are allowed to claim the designers are so
confident in their grav technology they never even consider it failing, why
can't I? Especially when it's only used when the ship is landing?

>Therefore a ship designed with parallel decks will have a bit more
>usefull interior space.  Of course this is a small effect & is not
>reflected by any current starship design sequences.

Not necessarily true, and if you have a case where it is and it's
important, design the ship with 1 (one) perpendicular deck. Not a lot of
elevators or ladders there...

>It is also possible that ships with parallel decks may be cheaper to
>build, at least in gravity, because fewer members of the construction
>crews will have to be up on scaffolding during construction, as the ship
>will not extend as far in the air.

Sure it's possible, if you design a ship that way. It's possible no matter
what the deck orientation is. If it's that big a deal don't design the ship
that way!

>Actually, ease-of-access is a reasonably good reason for designing decks
>parallel. It's a _lot_ easier (and faster) to walk down a corridor than to
>climb a ladder. This is a pretty decent reason for having corridors,
>especially in smaller ships.

Strange that people in skyscrapers, which have perpendicular "decks" can
get around faster than those in airports, which have parallel "decks".
Seriously, though, if this is an important design goal then design a ship
with decks perpendicular to thrust that has corridors instead of ladders.

Personally, I would design a ship with the rooms connected directly with
elevators and *no* corridors. It's a lot easier (and faster) to not move at
all than walk down a corridor. But, you could do this with any deck
orientation so the point is largely irrelevant.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:14:51 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

<<  Hi:

With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys
and how do you imprison a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game
where the Zho's are the good guys, and they are the central society to the
game rather than the Imperium?
 
 Matthew >>

Nope, but I created a minor human race that encouraged psis that were in
the core worlds...  Really pissed the players off, when everytime a
merchant came to them, they [the merchant] had a telepath with them to see
if the characters were lying or planning something...

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:19:14 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>Don't get me wrong, I like the "skyscraper" layout like the AHL.  I just
>don't think it works well with the smaller displacement ships, within which
>most Traveller players spend most of their shipboard time in.  I'd like to
>see the deckplans for a scout/courier with such a layout.  Cabins would
>have to be arranged one to a deck and stacked on top of each other :)

Not true. The type S scout/courier is a lot wider than a single cabin;
there is plenty of room for many cabins on each deck.

And even if there weren't, so what? Ships already have elevators and
ladders, by stacking rooms on top of each other we could get rid of all
those space-wasting corridors.

I, too, would like to see a scout/courier with such a layout. I'll put that
as project # 1876324 on my to-do list ;-)
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:55:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Deckplans

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: re:Deckplans
...
>Richard again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Strange that all those skyscrapers, which are far taller than six times
>their height, manage to stay up perfectly fine and don't get blown over by
>breezes. If the ship is unstable it will be unstable no matter what it's
>deck orientation. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>??????????!
>Richard, you _are_ aware that skyscrapers have massive below-ground
>support structures, without which they _would_ fall down, right?

  South-Western British Columbia is a fairly high-risk earthquake zone.
The typical "piles driven to bedrock" has been replaced in some advanced
designs by "building sitting on rollers mounted in conecrete tray lying
on piles and/or bedrock". I very much doubt that these buildings are
anticipated to fall over in high winds - unless perhaps it's the blast
from a passing near-c roc :)

        Steven Hudson

  Luckily, they're mythical...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:49:22 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

Matthew Harelick wrote:
 
> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys and
> how do you imprison
> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the good
> guys, and they are the
> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

Well, not quite. I am going to try and run a campaign in which both the
Zho's and the Imperium are forces to be reconned with, not necessarily
in a confrontational way, but then who knows.  Anyone who has run a
campaign with an alternate society outside the Imperium will have had
the same or similar problems IMO.

Jim C.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:57:47 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Extract from GURPSnet  2) Imperial Honour Code

This particular article, found in
http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/Digests/v04.n793
is good enough to repost here, I think....

>>>> begin quote<<<<

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 00:28:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Starships in GURPS Traveller (Bonds and Stocks)

<snippo GURPS specific information...>

Buying a starship isn't like buying a car.  You'd need a sound business
plan to convince the banker you could earn the money to repay the loan and
a reputation sound enough to convince him you wouldn't skip.  Given that
you could convince a banker of your ability (and willingness) to repay it
you could borrow *any* amount of money.

You can sell bonds with NO solid assets to back them, you can sell penny
stocks on thin air and promises if you can convince suckers...err, I mean
investors to buy them.  Just how to arrange that as part of character
generation...I don't know.

Maybe it *shouldn't* be a part of chargen, even if Traveller has always
done it that way.

As a specific example, in the PBEM I'm running the group is getting a ship
as part of the plot setup, not character generation.  I'm using an
inheritance to "gift" them the ship, *but* they are going to have to
finance its repair and refit, and find money to operate it...they don't
know that part yet.  ;-> They will get to know some brokers and bankers
really well before they get the Mae Lee off the tarmac.

>>b)  Shares.  A loan can be taken out by a group of people, rather than
just
>>one person.  For convenience, assume a ship has 100 shares, each of which
>>costs 1% of the down payment, and entitles the holder to 1% of the profits
>>of the investment, _after expenses have been paid_.  A share is
functionally
>>a partial loan, and is subject to the same limits as normal loans.
>Small, but important point:  shares are (generally) shares of _equity_ -
>ownership - in the assets of the corporation or partnership.

Right, I noticed that when I read it too.  I think we're talking about
selling bonds here rather than stock.  All bonds are a promise to make
specified payments at specified times with legal remedies *often* (not
always) provided in the event of default. Some information...

Mortgage Bonds are secured by the pledge of a specific property.  In the
event of default the bondholders are entitled to obtain the property in
question through bankruptcy proceedings.

Equipment Obligation Bonds (sometimes known as equipment trust
certificates) are secured by specific pieces of equipment -- railroad
rolling stock, commercial aircraft, ships and the like.  The equipment
should be readily salable and easily transferred to a new owner. Generally,
a trustee holds the title to the equipment, issues the bonds and leases the
equipment to the using corporation.  Money received from the corporation is
used to make interest and principal payments to the bond holders.  If/when
all payments are made the corporation takes title to the equipment.  If it
fails to make payments it loses its lease and the trustee can resell the
asset and pay off the bond holders.

Debenture Bonds are general obligations of the issuing corporation and
therefore represent *unsecured* credit.  To protect the bond holders the
indenture (the issuing corporation) will usually limit the amount of debt
it issues.  Failure to make the specified payments is grounds for
bankruptcy proceedings.

Subordinated Debentures are debentures issued secondarily to an initial
placement.  In the event of default they will be satisfied *after*
debenture, equipment and mortgage backed bonds.

There are even Voting Bonds, like regular bonds, but giving the holder a
say in the management of the corporation.  Not too common, but a
possibility.

Then there is Preferred Stock.  Preferred stock is like a perpetual bond.
A set amount is paid to the holder each year, stated as a percent of the
stock's par value or a direct dollar amount.  Because this security is a
stock, payments are dividends instead of interest, and thus don't qualify
as an expense when computing the corporation's income tax. OTOH, failure to
make payment doesn't constitute grounds for bankruptcy proceedings, like it
does with a true bond.

Common Stock represent equity (ownership) in a corporation.
A stock holds a residual claim, meaning that creditors and preferred
stockholders must be paid as scheduled before common stockholders can
receive any payments.  In bankruptcy, equity holders are entitled to any
value left after *all* creditors have been satisfied.  Common stock has a
limited liability, you can lose all the money you invested but no more.
OTOH, if the corporation makes money a stockholder shares in the increase
in equity of the company.  Because stockholders *own* the corporation they
have voting privileges and may participate in the management of the
corporation within the limits imposed by the corporate charter.

I don't know how much this helps in the discussion, but I thought I'd pass
the information along.

Eris- --

- - -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- - -----------------------------------------------------------

>>>>end quote<<<<

OK, everyone got that?

      "Given that you could convince a banker of your ability
       (and willingness) to repay it you could borrow *any*
       amount of money. You can sell bonds with NO solid
       assets to back them, you can sell penny
       stocks on thin air and promises ."

It's possible - nay, certain - that the MegaCorps have their
own secret services, not only to support their corporate
troops, but to make sure that the people they are dealing
with really CAN make their monthly payment's.   It's unlikely
that they will be used with small fry like the typical Traveller
group - the standard credit agencies would handle this -
but if you're dealing with multi-billion-credit deals....

Morgage bonds - what chunk of land did the Traveller's pledge
                              as security for their 160-year old, 25 MCr
tramp
                              trader?

Equipment Obligation Bonds - a fairly wealthy group put's up their
                              large, 15,000 MCr trader as a bond to finance
                              a new settlement on a recently-available world

Debenture Bonds - see Yahoo.  You know, there is a nice niche
                             for technologically-oriented character's: find
a
                             system that's about to put new technology into
                             operation [RCA (radio) in the 1920's, Yahoo in
the
                             1990's], ride the stock up 10,000 %, then cut
and
                             run to the next subsector before the collapse
of
                             the stock.  Do this three or four times
(without
                             getting MoJ or  the local elite suspicious)
                             and you can buy a large, TL 8 planet of your
very own
                             with the proceed's....

Voting Bonds/Common Stock -  both contain voting right's.
                             Thing's could get very hairy as
                             different corporate fraction's fight it out for
control.
                              in a more... aggressive... manner than usual.

Preferred Stock - nice, regular dividend payment's.  A good way to obtain
                             fund's without actually *working* for a living.

Common Stock - yes, you own a chunk of a business.  Hopefully, if this
                              business fail's, there will be something left
over for
                              the stockholders to claim (after other
debtor's
                              get their share of the ruin's first).

______________________

"She blinded me... with SCIENCE!" - ancient in-joke
among Scout's: so old, It Must Be Vilani.
______________________

The Imperial Honour Code probably has more to do with solid
Sylean business ethic's and Vilani cultural tradition than
with Christian chivary and belief's.  Traveller documentation stresses
that Honour is the only available basis to govern such a sprawling
entity as the Third Imperium: many on this list are also aware
of the need for honour in the military setting, as well.

Without knowledge of the actual truth of what's going on,
there is no way a correct Imperial decision can be made.
If the Emperor must spend all of his time watching his back,
he cannot spend the needed time or effort to pursue long-term
objectives.   High military expendetures to put down rebellion's
and treasonous uprisings at the other side of the Imperium
mean a cramped economy: continous military expendeture
above 10% of total GNP will slowly kill an economy.

Note that the Imperium exist only for economic reason's: there is
no universal shared religion, no single racial group or a universal
military enemy to unite the Imperium, only trade.  [1] If there isn't
enough trust for Solomani Rim corporations to invest in a
venture in Lishun sector, then the Imperium is dead.  The Second
Imperium died for almost exactly this reason.

In order for this trust to exist, there must be Honour, some
shared reverance for the Truth.  With this trust, great wealth
can be gained: the Colonial Quaker's got wealthy specifically
because they had earned a reputation as being very trustworthy.

Now, most nobles are pagan's: this implies - among other thing's -
that they probably do NOT believe that there is such a thing as
an objective, rational, immutable truth that exist's "out there".
It's possible (following certain form's of Greek philosophy), but
unlikely.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Imperial Nobility are so foolish
as to agree with the modern secularist that truth is fundamentally
nothing but a social construct, an act of imagination.

However, the Imperial Nobility generally do behave in a Machivellian
way, using the truth when it's useful, and ignoring it when it isn't.
All nobles use deceit as part of their daily operations,
but their justification's and goal's differ.  Observe the actions of
Dulinor, Norris, Lucan, and Strephon for their justifications and
the result of their actions.

It should be noted, however, the Nobility generally do try to work in
the best interest's of their people, all of the fraction leaders - Dulinor,
Norris, Strephon, Bzrk, Ishuggi [2], Margret, and Craig - all genuinely
thought that they were working in the best interest's of their people.
So did the Archdukes that declaired fealty to Lucan [3]; only Lucan
himself was the exception.

By their action's, the nobility showed that they valued love of and
for their people over their obligation as lieges of the Emperor.
Love over Honour. Love over Duty. Love over Truth.

Yep, it's that old Christian influence again....  who else places the
power of love on such a pedestal?  However, even though
God did love his Son, that Son still died, writhing naked on
a wooden Roman cross for the salvation of the world.  In the end,
the Christian concept of love does not negate Honour, Duty or Truth :
it simply provides an escape from eternal hell.

So, should the Archdukes shown feality to Lucan?  Not until
he was declared the legitimate successor to Strephon by the moot
(or if the Nobility vote to dissolve the Imperium). Until then, neither the
Archdukes nor the Imperial Navy need obey Prince Lucan's orders.
The chain of command stop's at the Archduchy/Grand Admiral
level, and stay's there until a new Emperor is chosen. (or if no Emperor
can be chosen immediately, a temporary Regent).  Certainly, no major
military offensive or session movement is permitted.

Even so, there are still the question as to the duties a noble owe's to
those under him.  Does the honour code only cover nobility and the military,
or all subject's of the Imperium?  Is it negated on a member world? Is it a
strictly military and noble code?  What are it's applications in the
business sphere?
Who defined what is honourable, and what is not? [4]

[1] Apparently, the Third Imperium doesn't even have the moral substance of
the Roman Empire:

Rome had a statement of purpose: "to protect the weak and make humble the
proud." The Roman republic, and later the empire, may not always have
adhered to that purpose, but few doubted that was the ideal policy. The
business of Rome, the superpower, was the imposition of order on a
disorderly world.
                           - Jerry Pournelle, "Just what is the business of
America?",

http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/98/0716/icopinions3.asp

[2] Archduke Ishuggi was the leader of the Revived Vilani Empire
[3] Archduke Adair of Sol, and Archduke ???????? of Gateway.
     Apparently, all of the Archduke at 1116 were male.
[4] Yes, I know, "The Emperor"[5].  I really mean who handles it when it
isn't
      important enough for him personally to deal with, but it still has to
be
      resolved.
[5] There must be a standing joke in the Third Imperium:

  Q:  Who is in charge of (fill in ridiculous, but necessary function) ?
  A:  Well, the Emperor is the final authority on that, but he
        has graciously named _______ as his representative.

Alvin Plummer
Waiting for the GRUPS Traveller: Corporate supplement....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #786
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Traveller-digest       Monday, August 31 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 787



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Psionic societies
re:Deckplans
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Starship Depreciation
RE: Expanding starship software (fwd)
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters
re: Deckplans
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:25:25 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

> > With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad
guys and
> > how do you imprison
> > a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the
good
> > guys, and they are the
> > central society to the game rather than the Imperium?
> Well, not quite. I am going to try and run a campaign in which both the
> Zho's and the Imperium are forces to be reconned with, not necessarily
> in a confrontational way, but then who knows.  Anyone who has run a
> campaign with an alternate society outside the Imperium will have had
> the same or similar problems IMO.

Yeppers, right now I am running a game in which a very high tech civ (TL:
20) with Psi is right between the Zho, Imps, Vargar & Aslan...  The Zho are
trying to get them to join up as they are both places where the nobles are
all PSIs...  The Imps are trying to say that if you join us we will be your
friends while at the same time keeping a couple of fleets well within
striking range...  The Aslan are just Raidng them...  And the Vargar
worship them, they think they are the Ancients...

> Jim C.

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:28:39 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re:Deckplans

>Now let's see your deckplan for a small, streamlined cargo vessel that
>allows drive-on/drive-off cargo loading like a 400tn subsidized merchant,
>without using decks parallel to main engine thrust.

Well, I don't have a deckplan, but imagine something like the Jupiter II
from the TV series "Lost in Space". Takeoff and landing are as shown on the
series, but the lateral motion without changing the ship's orientation is
strictly "TV science".

>Most Traveller spacecraft are built with artificial grav and inertial comp
>anyway. If you have these systems, and trust them so much that
>you think they'll never fail, you can put your decks upside down or
>sideways if that suits you.

This is true of any deck orientation. Perpendicular decks just don't
*require* it. And, they can accelerate at one more G in space than ships
with parallel decks and the same inertial compensation, require less
landing and takeoff area, have less shifting of cargo due to lateral
forces, do not require separate thrusters for takeoff, can hover without
contragrav, have a reaction drive danger zone that doesn't move around and
is smaller than the parallel deck ships's, which would blanket the entire
the entire launch area, by the way, and aren't required to maintain
stability through a rotation of 90 degrees.

Sure, you can come up with weird designs or mission requirements or
engineering fixes to work around one or two of these constraints, but all
of them at once? And with absolutely no extra cost? Starships with parallel
decks and thrust axes belong in the same category as those that use rudders
in space, IMHO.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Strange that all those skyscrapers, which are far taller than six times
>their height, manage to stay up perfectly fine and don't get blown over by
>breezes. If the ship is unstable it will be unstable no matter what it's
>deck orientation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>??????????!
>Richard, you _are_ aware that skyscrapers have massive below-ground
>support structures, without which they _would_ fall down, right?

*Heavy sigh* No Walt, astonishing as it may seem, they would not fall down.
They would sink, though. If you can't believe this, please read "Why
Buildings Stand Up" by Mario Salvadori, ISBN 0-393-30676-3, and argue with
him.

>A 70-meter long ship will be far more stable on it's side, sitting on
>a tricycle (or more) landing gear than it will ever be sitting on it's
>tail.

If this is such an overriding design goal then don't design it as a 70 m
needle! But it can be plenty stable enough on its tail.

I don't think you appreciate how stable tall, thin structures like
skyscrapers can be built, or how much lateral force is required to topple
one. You may be comparing it to a pile of blocks or a lego tower which can
be knocked over with a simple push, but this is misleading. When the first
skyscrapers were built, people didn't believe they could stand up. But
they, and even taller ones today,  do.

Towers become *more* stable as they scale up; try balancing a pencil on
end, then a shipping tube for a comparison. And something the size of a
building or starship can be built very stable. Remember that earthquake in
Mexico a few years back? Skyscrapers remained standing while older squat
building around them collapsed. I'm not saying that squat buildings
couldn't be designed just as stable, only that tall thin ones are not going
to topple just because the ground shifts underneath them.

Moreover, they are in positive equilibrium. If a gust of wind, an
earthquake, or Superman gives one a big push it will actually *tilt back*
into an upright position. The force required to topple one is comparable to
that required to lift it off the ground. This is another reason why
people's experiences with things like towers of playing cards or lego is
not appropriate.

And frankly, these are all rather artificial examples. If remaining stable
through nuclear-scale lateral forces or landing pads that pitch through 45
degrees is a consideration, then build it with decks perpendicular to the
thrust axis but not a needle configuration. I honestly think you're
creating straw man arguements for parallel deck orientations.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:39:44 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

alvin plummer wrote:
> 
> What are the most common "Incident's" that old
> navy men would harrass/freak out the new guy's with?
> 
<<snips real-world incident>>
> 
> Now, there is certainly going to be a lot of grinding gears on large space
> vessels, but I'm looking for stufff distinctly space-flavoured.
> Say, failure of vacc suit's during EVA operations, gas giant refuelling
> gone bad, poorly maintained vechiles going BOOM when the liquid hydrogen
> decides that it's had enough.  At a guess, the typical "Incident"
> involves...
> 
<<snips many savory ingredients for disaster>>
> 
> Any more?

How 'bout:

	Drop capsules ("...An' when the loading klaxon sounds in the tubes, you
got _exactly_ 10 seconds to get out.  I seen what happened to some yahoo
who figured that his routine check meant that they wouldn't load the
tube....")

	Gunfire inside a starship ("...In the parts of the ship that have signs
about 'Blade Weapons Only', they _mean_ it!  D'ya think they put those
there for decoration?!  How d'ya think HIMS MAINE bought hers?  Some
_jarhead_ [spit] decided to be a _hero_, an' fired his PCMP at a Zho
commando.  Trouble is, the fuel tank _behind_ the Zho wasn't too happy,
and....")

> 
> Alvin Plummer
> "A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down"
>        - Murphy's Law of Combat Operations, #4.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:02:42 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Starship Depreciation

IYTUs, what allowance (if any) is made for starship depreciation?  I can
see several possibilities:

1.  (rare) The starship in question is considered a "classic", and can
actually _increase_ in value ("An LSP Type A, model year 1099, from the
_Regina_ yard?!?  Talk about your sweet ships!  _That'll_ run you
extra....")

2.  Ships maintained in "like-new" condition are _priced_ "like new",
regardless of age.  Any depreciation is based on deterioration (a used
ship with a 25% discount has enough wrong with it to justify such a loss
in value).

3.  Ships depreciate at a set rate, for tax/resale purposes, without
regard to actual condition (any 30-year old ship has depreciated to,
say, 40% of original cost).

4.  Ships depreciate based on a combination of age, condition, design,
and builder (a McDonuts Type A might be worth less than an LSP Type A,
both of the same age and general condition).

Your thoughts?

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:23:46 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Expanding starship software (fwd)

On Saturday, August 29, 1998 12:00 AM, Richard Hough 
[SMTP:rdhough@home.com] wrote:
> >One of the things I like least about Traveller starships is that there 
is no
> >avenue for upgrading anything but the weapons in the turrets.  I 
disagree with
> >it, and have been trying to generate rules for it for a couple of years 
now.
>
> I see your point, but doesn't software in Traveller already do this? 
After
> all, there is Gunner-1, -2, and so on. The problem is not that computer
> software isn't upgradeable, it's that it has been ignored in most design
> systems.
>

Yes, there is a very limited upgrade path.  I would prefer something more 
granular, however.  Why is it that the same software that is used to target 
and fire the pulse laser is used for missiles?  How about the KKD that are 
so popular on the list?  I am aware that it is for simplicities sake, what 
I am proposing is a much more involved system that can fit in side by side 
with the existing one.  Then, if a GM wishes to utilize it, it is 
available.

> >
> >I think it makes a lot of sense to have these capabilities in the cargo 
and
> >'tween deck areas.  For some ships, accesses to critical portions of the 
ship
> >(outside the hatches to engineering and the bridge, for example) may 
also be
> >covered.  I don't forsee indiscriminate usage.
>
> I think these capabilities are dangerous and useless. They would more
> likely be used by hijackers than against them, will anger passengers, are
> vulnerable to accident or sabotage, will be ineffective against a 
prepared
> attacker, and risk enormous collateraral damage. I agree the crew won't 
use
> them much because they won't be very effective; it is hijackers that will
> use them indiscriminately.

If a skilled hijacker wants the ship, he's going to get it.  The A/H 
software makes it more difficult...and weeds out the 'unskilled' hijacker.

> >> IMTU, such defense systems are found only in bad holovids.
> >
> >I'm afraid I must disagree.  With the Ship's Computer able to interface
> >with all
> >systems, including the floor plates (grav), inertial compensation, and
> >ultimately, life support, the A/H has a variety of lethal responses that
> >can be
> >utilized if properly programmed (or worse, improperly programmed.)  If 
you
> >primarily operate in a TNE universe, then I can see where this may not
> >apply to
> >your campaign - but there are legacy starships.
>
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Very well.

>
> It is not necessarily true that the ship computer can interface with all
> systems. Even if the ship has High Automation, which most combat ships do
> not, subsystems can be isolated units not under external control. This
> applies to all campaigns, not just TNE. Even if the computer has total
> control of the entire ship this does not make it legal, moral, effective,
> or dramatic roleplaying for the ship to be designed specifically to kill
> the crew.

hmmmm...perhaps I should make something clear.  IMTU, most automated 
systems run under the '3 laws' put forth by Dr. Asimov.  Specifically 
excluded from this are combat and security 'droids, and the A/H software 
overrides it under very specific circumstances.  Even if the crew wanted 
to, they should not be able to turn their ship into a death trap.  However, 
areas that are considered uninhabited (i.e. the 'tween deck areas) but 
allow access to vital controls necessary to command the ship, and those 
areas vital to ship's function (bridge and engineering) should be able to 
be defended with deadly force, do you agree?

> Ultimately though, this is not relevant to how the anti-hijack program
> works. Even if it were theoretically possible for the computer to kill 
the
> ship's occupants this does not mean that commercial software will be
> designed specifically to do it. For example, the fact that someone can be
> killed by a car is not relevant to making burglar alarms set off AP mines
> under the driver's seat instead of that annoying siren.
>
> As an aside, would you want to fly in a plane that had AP mines under the
> seats as an "anti-hijack" device?

No, but I fly on planes with armored cockpit doors.  And on airlines that 
have, on occiasion, been know to put armed, non-uniformed personnel on the 
aircraft to prevent hijackings.

> >If the software doesn't anticipate the hardware, what use will it be?
>
> Huh? All I am saying is that things like poison gas dispensers and
> bioscanners are hardware, and must be purchased and installed separately
> from software. If your software "anticipates" hardware that isn't there 
it
> certainly will be of no use at all.

It's pretty standard to write 'hooks' into commercial software to support 
future upgrades, even if the programmer doesn't know exactly what those 
upgrades will be while coding the original software.

>
> Anti-hijack is a MCr 0.1 computer program, and if buying a copy suddenly
> makes hardware appear all over your multi-kiloton spacecraft this will
> unbalance the game.

I don't know about your TU, but I make the players in mine pay for 
everything.  I'm not talking about expanding the capabilities of the 
software, I'm talking upgrade pathes.  Expensive ones, if I have my way!

douglas

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------
Never anger a dragon, for they have found you are crunchy, and go well with 
Brie!

Douglas Glatz, MCSE
douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:40:46 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>But still they are much more fastened to the ground than a ship landing on
>legs, and is not really a good example of the topic in this discussion.

No, skyscrapers are not necessarily any more "fastened to the ground" than
a ship, or a rock for that matter. In fact, a ship with landing clamps may
even be fastened more securely. A skyscraper could simply rest on the
ground with nothing physically holding it there and be perfectly stable
(assuming the ground is strong enough to hold it up).

I think skyscrapers are a good analogy because they show a real-world
example of something which:

1. Has "decks" perpendicular to their "thrust axis" (OK, gravity in this case).

2. Is a safe and efficient needle configuration, which the parallel-deck
crowd (PDC) seems to think is some kind of worst-case scenario.

3. Is perfectly stable, able to stand up in hurricanes and earthquakes,
despite the claims of the PDC that a vehicle merely six times its width in
height would "blow over in a breeze".

3. Uses elevators and stairways without the occupants pining for mile-long
corridors.

4. Provides a useful visual image for those who think a spacecraft is a
kind of airplane, with the same design constraints that an airplane has.

5. Actually has the same physical structure as some kinds of canon
Traveller spacecraft, like the Azanti High Lightning.

>The point was that it is more likly for a ship with perpendicular decks to
>by high, and should these fall over the damage is going to be much more
>extensive. A ship with parallelle decks will fall maksimum a few meters to
>the ground, while a needle ship with perpendicular decks can fall 20 - 30
>meters before hiting the ground.

The forces required to topple a large tall structure may be more than you
expect. A needle ship with parallel decks hit with enough force to topple
one with perpendicular decks will probably do enough damage to make the
fall moot (IMHO, it would be hard to calculate this).

If you build ships prone to falling over then don't build one in this
configuration. I'm not trying to cop out, I feel a lot of these complaints
are of the form "yeah, but I can build a ship with perpendicular decks that
has a really inappropriate design...". You can build a bad design of
anything. The advantages of perpendicular decks are in its basic physical
properties, not an individual design. A needle configuration is better for
some situations and worse for others.

Actually, you *could* build a needle or wedge ship with perpendicular decks
which lies flat on the ground; just put the main drive in the ship's belly.
It might wobble, depending on things like cargo distribution, and might
have some weird gyroscopic effect when rotating in combat, but its
perfectly workable. Perhaps there would be a market on planets which think
spaceships have to fly like airplanes...

>Calm down, dear sir. All I have seen so far as a good and solid argument
>for perpendicular decks are the gravity issue. As someone else pointed
>out, the cargo access problem is something that makes the parallelle decks
>best. So I think you'll se both in the Imperium.

If you see having to use cranes or elevators to load cargo as a "problem",
then you should use short squat ships with perpendicular decks. Ships with
parallel decks have no advantage in this situation, or any other, at all.

>> Tommy, this is simply not true. A ship with perpendicular decks carrying a
>> bowling ball balanced on a thimble on the deck could take off, follow a
>> roller coaster track at 4 gees, spinning and flopping all over the place,
>> then land, on a 2 gee planet, with no inertial compensators, and if flown
>> precisely enough the bowling ball wouldn't budge because the direction of
>> the cumulative acceleration vectors would not change. This is physically
>> impossible on a ship with parallel decks.
>
>I'm not following this (might be because I can't visualize it properly),
>but it seems to me that the bowling ball is affected by two forces, the
>normal force from the deck and the gravity force from the planet. Now
>direction of the force from the planet is going to change rapidly if the
>ship makes any manouvers. Why doesn't this make the ball move around? The
>only way to keep the ball from not moving it to keep the normal force from
>the deck pointing the opposite way of gravity force.

Well, it is affected by three forces: gravity, the normal force from the
deck, and acceleration due to the main engine. However, the vector result
of these two forces is a third force in a third direction. The ball doesn't
move around because you direct the main thrust at an angle so that the
resultant main thrust and external gravity vector is normal to the ship
deck. That's why the bowling ball doesn't move, in fact it is held to the
deck even harder!

OK, I am fudging a little here because I'm assuming you have some way of
changing the ship's orientation to point the main engines in the right
direction without causing significant centrifugal effects or lateral
acceleration. To a first approximation, this force is insignificant
compared to the external forces. Maybe the main engine is on gimbals or
something...

The point is that you swivel the main engines to provide a thrust
counteracting external accelerations, *and the deck swivels along with it*.
The main thrust has to be directed in a way that "balances" the external
forces or the ship will go off course. And since the decks are
perpendicular to the main thrust this balancing force will be (to a first
approximation) normal to the decks. The cumulative effect of all this
maneuvering to the bowling ball is that acceleration toward the deck
changes in intensity, but not direction

>But if the decks are perpendicular to the thrust axis and we assume that
>the thrusters have to stay in the aft of the ship (most ships have the
>jump drive there to), the cargo decks on a "landing craft" has to removed
>away from aft.

Sure it does, but it doesn't take up any more space. Look at the old scout
and free trader, they have engines on the lower decks and still have space
for cargo. A ship with perpendicular decks can do the same thing. In fact,
you can convert the old free trader and scout deck plans to a perpendicular
deck orientation simply by moving the engines from the aft of the ship to
under the center of gravity. The engines don't get bigger, cargo space
doesn't get smaller, you just have to move it a bit.

>A ship with perpendicular decks always has to land with its
>aft towards the ground, so the cargo is some height up from the ground.

This does not follow at all. Why would you move the cargo up higher? In
fact, there may be *more* room for cargo on the bottom deck; if you assume
the main engines have to be longer in their direction of thrust, like a
rocket, then the engines would be put "up on end" and take *less* space on
the bottom deck that the existing free trader and scout plans!

I think you may be getting carried away with the example of a needle
configuration; I use it solely because the PDC seem to think it is some
kind of physical impossibility. Certainly, it will have a smaller
"footprint" that the same configuration with a parallel deck orientation,
and this *may* make it less suitable for low-tech cargo. So use a different
configuration. The canon scout and far traders are not needles so this is a
moot arguement, IMHO.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 21:50:35 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters

On 08/30/98 at 06:57 PM,  "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> said:

>>>>> begin quote<<<<

Alvin, there was a reason I didn't post that article here.  Every
one of my players is on the TML.  ;->

>Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 00:28:04 -0500
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: Re: Starships in GURPS Traveller (Bonds and Stocks)

><snippo GURPS specific information...>

>Buying a starship isn't like buying a car.  You'd need a sound
>business plan to convince the banker you could earn the money to
>repay the loan and a reputation sound enough to convince him you
>wouldn't skip.  Given that you could convince a banker of your
>ability (and willingness) to repay it you could borrow *any* amount
>of money.

To clarify, if you can convince the lender that you can and will
repay an amount of money with a favorable rate of return for them,
they will lend the money to you.  Having a sound business plan goes
a long way to convincing the banker.  Being glib, highly
charismatic, and having a high carousing/liaison skill also helps.

>You can sell bonds with NO solid assets to back them, you can sell
>penny stocks on thin air and promises if you can convince
>suckers...err, I mean investors to buy them.  Just how to arrange
>that as part of character generation...I don't know.

You know there isn't anything wrong with a skillful "promoter", ie
snake-oil salesman, convincing little old ladies to invest their
pensions in his venture...if he pays off.  If he doesn't then...can
you say con-man?  I knew you could! ;->

>Maybe it *shouldn't* be a part of chargen, even if Traveller has
>always done it that way.

Here I'm referring to mustering out benefits providing ships to
characters.

>As a specific example, in the PBEM I'm running the group is getting a
>ship as part of the plot setup, not character generation.  

<snip>

First, Bruce, Craig, Keven, Tim, Suz, Terry, and James....you
*didn't* read that part about the game you're in, and if you did,
you immediately *forgot* it!!!!  Right?  ;->

Second, I hope ya'll found my article about financial arrangements
useful.  People were posting back and forth about stocks and
bonds...and not getting it quite right...so, I thought I'd try to
clear things up a little and to give a few RW options for financing
that people might not have considered.

This all came from a GURPSNET discussion we were having about PC
groups having access to multi-million dollar (credit ;-) ships, but
not all being insanely wealthy.  The general thrust of my posts was
that ships for PC groups *should* be part of the game's plot, not
*just* a character generation event.  Acquiring ships, getting them
into working condition, and keeping them should be a continuing part
of a campaign, if at all possible.

Yes, ship mustering out benefits are part of Traveller and should
continue to be, but rather than making acquisition of a ship a sure
thing they should simply make it easier for a character/group to get
the ship (and/or get a better ship).  The players should still have
to roleplay:  convincing of backers to lend them money, arranging
the loans with the grey men, problems with contractors they are
hiring to get/keep ships in good shape, and finding of ways to make
their payments...and maybe a profit.  Their "ship benefits" should
just give them a GM-administered edge in getting and keeping their
ship, but not the ship itself.

This applies to Merchant Ships, of course, Scout and Lab ships are a
slightly different matter.  And this is all IMTU.  I *do* think it
makes sense in all TU's, but that's still just my opinion.

Eris,
    still a heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 20:28:14 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Deckplans

>And as I stated earlier, it is extremely difficult to come up with a more
>accessible ship layout than the traditional free/fat/far trader layout,
>with fewer, larger decks.

So, use the exact same layout, just with a perpendicular deck orientation.
All you have to do is move the engines from the aft end of the ship to the
center. You don't have to change the statistics, the cargo handling, or
even the deck plans very much.

If you like fewer, larger decks, then make a ship with *one* single large
flat deck and a main drive perpendicular to the deck right through the
center of gravity. Hell, hold the deck to the hull with hydraulics and
*lower the whole thing to the ground* for landing; passengers could drive
right into their staterooms! Would that make you happy?

Every shape available to ships with parallel deck orientations are
available to those with perpendicular orientations. There is no requirement
to put the cargo holds up on the 30th floor unless for some reason you want
to.

>The "skyscraper" stacking of decks works with
>the AHL class of ships (and others of significantly large tonnages) because
>the individual decks are large enough to be laid out without wasting a lot
>of space (just look how many lifts and vertical access shafts the AHL class
>has).  This technique just doesn't fly with most hull configurations in the
><1,000 ton range.

I'm almost afraid to ask how stacking decks wastes a lot of space for fear
of prolonging this thread any more, but how will it? Take your favorite
deck plan. Move the engine to under the center of gravity so the thrust
'goes out' the bottom of the ship. You now have a ship with decks
perpendicular to the thrust axis. Have fun with all your free Gs of
inertial compensation and don't bother fastening your seatbelts when you
land or take off, but first tell me what has disappeared into "waste space"?

As for all those "lifts and vertical access shafts" in the AHL et al; you
have to be able to travel from one end of a ship to the other whatever the
size or deck orientation. If it used a parallel orientation it would just
have to be corridors instead of elevators. You still have to be able to
travel through corridors so it's not like you can fill them up with cargo
or something. This is true no matter what the ship size so I don't know
what happens at < 1000 dtons to make this configuration "not fly".

And again, if you don't like needle configuration then *don't use it*. The
"traditional free/fat/far trader layout" doesn't.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 23:04:09 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

On 08/30/98 at 07:02 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>IYTUs, what allowance (if any) is made for starship depreciation?  I
>can see several possibilities:

>1.  (rare) The starship in question is considered a "classic", and
>can actually _increase_ in value ("An LSP Type A, model year 1099,
>from the _Regina_ yard?!?  Talk about your sweet ships!  _That'll_
>run you extra....")

I can see that for some models of yatch, but that's about it. 

>2.  Ships maintained in "like-new" condition are _priced_ "like new",
>regardless of age.  Any depreciation is based on deterioration (a
>used ship with a 25% discount has enough wrong with it to justify
>such a loss in value).

>3.  Ships depreciate at a set rate, for tax/resale purposes, without
>regard to actual condition (any 30-year old ship has depreciated to,
>say, 40% of original cost).

>4.  Ships depreciate based on a combination of age, condition,
>design, and builder (a McDonuts Type A might be worth less than an
>LSP Type A, both of the same age and general condition).

Any and all the above.  

IMTU and from an in-game character viewpoint...

If the political entity taxes depreciable property (like ships) it
usually does so based on the property's worth as depreciated, using
some set rate.  I usually use straight line for simplicty, but there
are a lot of other possiblities.  This depreciation rate doesn't
relate directly to the actual utility of the ship, just its taxable
worth.  An asset can be reduced to 0 taxable worth, but still
generating income for the owner because it still has an economic
utility.

Generally, the actual worth of a ship is what other people would pay
for it.  Ship Brokers, and Appraisers hired by bankers, brokers, and
buyers, evaluate the ship and set a "fair market value" based on the
ship's age, condition, design, etc.  There can be wide variations in
these apprasials...game material here folks. 

...from a game mechanic viewpoint...

I use this depreciation method for merchant ships.

Base depreciation under normal use with regular maintenance:

 1.  During the first 10 years the ship drops 3 to 5% in resale
     value from its initial value each year.  I like to get the
     value down to about 60% by the 10th year. 
         
 2.  During the years 11 through 50 the ship's resale value goes
     down by around 1% per year.  At 50 years a ship should be down
     to about 20%.
     
 3.  After 50 years the ship doesn't normally lose value from normal
     use.

 * If the ship misses it's regular maintenance the loss in value from
   that year is doubled (after 50 years it's 1%).

 * If the ship is damaged it loses value at the GM's option.

 * Ship overhauls and upgrades increase value.
  
 * If the ship is being evaluated at a TL other than at which it was
   manufactured the value will set higher or lower at the GM's
   option.
 
I admit to "winging a lot of it."  ;-> 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:13:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters 

> On 08/30/98 at 06:57 PM,  "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> said:
> 
> >>>>> begin quote<<<<
> 
> Alvin, there was a reason I didn't post that article here.  Every
> one of my players is on the TML.  ;->

Heheh.

> Yes, ship mustering out benefits are part of Traveller and should
> continue to be, but rather than making acquisition of a ship a sure
> thing they should simply make it easier for a character/group to get
> the ship (and/or get a better ship).  The players should still have
> to roleplay:  convincing of backers to lend them money, arranging
> the loans with the grey men, problems with contractors they are
> hiring to get/keep ships in good shape, and finding of ways to make
> their payments...and maybe a profit.  Their "ship benefits" should
> just give them a GM-administered edge in getting and keeping their
> ship, but not the ship itself.

That's how I feel about it.
 
> This applies to Merchant Ships, of course, Scout and Lab ships are a
> slightly different matter.  And this is all IMTU.  I *do* think it
> makes sense in all TU's, but that's still just my opinion.

Scout ships IMTU are still owned by the issuing Scout service.  Lab ships are owned by whatever university fields them.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #787
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 31 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 788



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Leading Edge Tech
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: How do you...
Re: Piloting
Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: How do you...
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
re: Deckplans
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Wipeout or I can land it
re: Deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 23:46:07 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters

On 08/31/98 at 12:13 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>> This applies to Merchant Ships, of course, Scout and Lab ships are a
>> slightly different matter.  And this is all IMTU.  I *do* think it
>> makes sense in all TU's, but that's still just my opinion.

>Scout ships IMTU are still owned by the issuing Scout service.  Lab
>ships are owned by whatever university fields them.

Yep, that's how I do it too. ;-> Those kind of ships are "on loan" only.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:03:33 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Quoth "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>:

>On 08/30/98 at 07:02 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:
>
>>IYTUs, what allowance (if any) is made for starship depreciation?  I
>>can see several possibilities:
>
>>1.  (rare) The starship in question is considered a "classic", and
>>can actually _increase_ in value ("An LSP Type A, model year 1099,
>>from the _Regina_ yard?!?  Talk about your sweet ships!  _That'll_
>>run you extra....")
>
>I can see that for some models of yatch, but that's about it. 

Yatch?

The only Yatch I know of was published in The Traveller Chronicle #3. All the
rest are Yachts...
 (Kevin Knight and I had a good laugh over that one when the issue first
appeared; seems he hadn't noticed it until I pointed it out... in the issue I
received in the mail as part of my subscription.)

GypsyComet
(who has been known to spell it that way himself on occasion...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:04:44 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Tech

> I don't have the RSB, unfortunately (I foolishly decided I didn't need any
> Regency stuff right away, and then GDW went bust :( As soon as I posted
> this I realised that I was wrong, anyway. There's the Longbow project, and
> Empress Wave, etc, etc.

Strictly speaking we don't know enough bout Longbow or the EW.  RSB itself
centered on telepathy (and only gave little hints on Longbow and the EW).

Hmm... It won't give you the ref's section, but you can get the Planet III
Traveller Navigator for free. It has the RSB glossary section.  I can help you
w/ the Ref Section (and glossary), if it'll be useful to u.  I think Titan
Games has the RSB, too.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 01:35:37 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

On 08/31/98 at 01:03 AM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>>I can see that for some models of yatch, but that's about it. 

>Yatch?

Rhymes with natch? ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:43:19 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: How do you...

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
> incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
> incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
> and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
> that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
> psionicly adept?

As I know, teleportation over a planet's distance is impossible.
So, if the Prison Camp is located on a world with only one starport, which
ist rigorosly controlled and even a secret for the PoWs, there ought to be
little chance for them to escape. They need to know where to go before
teleporting.

There are also implications in teleporting far distances around a world,
as velocity vectors stay unchanged whilst teleport. You NEVER can teleport
to the backside of a world without losing your health - or better life.
Also you cannot teleport to an orbital station or shuttle, as the change
of gravity decreases your potential energy, which must be converted from
body heat ... (explained in one the modules, don't know which)

It is easier to imprison teleporters than you think.

L. A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:06:36 +0200
From: Morten Lund <mlund@imv.aau.dk>
Subject: Re: Piloting

>>Actually, I'm told that the first plane to mount a machine gun *didn't*
>>have such. After the gunner perforated a lot of the plane, they
>>equipped it with such safeguards before the next flight!
>
>
>Yeah, I heard the same. Apparently the mechanical device to allow the German
>pilots to fire the machine gun through the propellers of their aircraft
>wasn't invented until some unlucky chap(s) blew the propeller to sawdust...
>I wonder how they tested the mounting in the first place?
>
I seem to remember that the guy who tried out the idea, had mounted  metal
plates on the back side of the prop, to minimize the damage... (think it
worked, after a fashion...)

/morten

Ideas have consequences
- -bajoran proverb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:58:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Again, if the Regency was making advances with almost no efforts, what
> had the Zhodani figured out? Within biological limitations (i.e., Cthulhu's
> special ability) and their TL (no psi-amplifiers unless TL 14-, etc.) they
> should have discovered just about everything possible within the psionic
> realm of humaniti.

I do not think that EVERYTHING possible can be acheived at TL 14, not even
in psionics. I'd vote for a TL psionics chart, as this is adopted as a 
science to the Trav universe. This could include also tech using
psi-switches (so-called 'flickers'). I also wonder if the Zho's have
psionically rigged vehicles like the Z-80 Grav tank. 

 TLs   Psionics
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 1- 3: intuitional application of psionics 
 4- 6: natural view of psionics; 'witchcraft'
 7- 9: first psi-physical theories and applications; psi drugs
10-12: psionic switches; booster drug
13-15: psi-engineering and telepathic virtual reality
16 and beyond: psi-driven devices, psionic memories -> ancient artifacts

Perhaps we can refine this chart, but I think it would be wise to use
psionics as another science. This would also mean, Psi Institutes have to
provide a certain TL for their activities.

Just an idea.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:20:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:03:37 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:
>
>> The reason Traveller ships have parallel decks and thrust is because they
>> were designed by 20th-century artists who think starships are a kind of
>> airplane.
>
> Actually, most small vessels require decks laid out perpendicular to the
> axis of thrust primarily because they are easier to draw.
>
> However, small vessels (ie: <1,000 tons, with the exception of a few like
> the MC) with their decks orientated the way you describe would make for a
> vessel with many, many tiny, cramped decks.  Passengers and crew would have
> to move about the craft primarily via ladders and lifts, which can become a
> bit of a pain.  Only with larger ships does this "skyscraper" layout begin
> to become practical.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I like the "skyscraper" layout like the AHL.  I just
> don't think it works well with the smaller displacement ships, within which
> most Traveller players spend most of their shipboard time in.  I'd like to
> see the deckplans for a scout/courier with such a layout.  Cabins would
> have to be arranged one to a deck and stacked on top of each other :)

Or else we change the shape for the smaller ships. More of a "flying
saucer" layout. 

Now that I have a CAD program, I may try this. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:23:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

> Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> writes:
>>The reason Traveller ships have parallel decks and thrust is because they
>>were designed by 20th-century artists who think starships are a kind of
>>airplane
>
>>Parallel decks and thrust have a high cost and no
>>benefit at all, in fact they are disadvantageous.
>
> Actually, ease-of-access is a reasonably good reason for designing decks
> parallel. It's a _lot_ easier (and faster) to walk down a corridor than to
> climb a ladder. This is a pretty decent reason for having corridors,
> especially in smaller ships.

But if the compensators fail, that corridor is an open shaft. Very dangerous.

> As for combat, assuming that the ship can manage more than 1G, few
> crewmembers will be travelling unaided anyway. 

They won't have a problem is the ship has compensators adequate for the
acceleration. If they don't, or the comps are out, they can't travel at
*all* in the "decks parallel to thrust" layout.

> (I'd still put the bridge at the centre of the ship, though.)

For all the good it does in a ship where the "center" isn't that far
from the surface. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:28:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

> It is also easier to unload cargo from a "wet ship" layout at facilities that
> are primitive, since the cargo deck is close to the ground (see the 3 traders
> (fat,far,free)).

Since we've pretty much assumed containerized cargo, you can easily
unload almost anywhere. The ship's cargo handling system would just
feed things out a hatch near the ground. And you'd have stuff "racked"
in the hold, so as to avoid stacking limits on containers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:31:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

>> Unfortunately, landing in a ship with parallel decks and thrust will make
>> the problems of varying ship orientation, shifting cargo, multiple stable
>> axes, and landing area worse.
>
> But still it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem from our experience
> with planes :-)

Asides from some fighters and aerobatic stunt planes, we don't have to
deal with thrust great than the gross weight of the aircraft! Any ship
that's gonna make it to orbit economically *has* to have a thrust much
greater than it's gross weight.

During at least *part* of the ascent or descent, the ship is going to
be nose up. *Very* nose up.

>> I think you have your terms swapped; ships with decks perpendicular to main
>> engine thrust are still safe and usable even if contragrav and inertial
>> compensators didn't exist; parallel decks and thrust are unusable without
>> them.
>
> As long as the ship goes in a straight line this is true. When spinnig to
> change direction or when affected by winds or other forces the cargo
> better be securly fastened no matter what type of orientation the decks
> have. ANd the amount of ships that go only in straight lines are quite few
> :-)

Unlike aircraft, ships when turning *still* have the main thrust in the
same direction *relative to the ship*. That's because the steering
thrusters will turn the ship about it's center of mass at a rate
that'll give a quite *minor* acceleration, while the mian drive keeps
right on pushing. 

> Again as long as there are no spinning or other non-thrust forces working
> on the ship. A ship with perpendicular decks is going to have a hard time
> going into any gravity field if the cargo is not securly fastened as it
> then needs to keep its aft pointed directly at the gravitating bodies
> center of mass, so doing any type of course changes is effectivly
> impossible.

Hardly. It has to point the engines at the planet for landing and
takeoff *anyway*. And only *minor* side thrusts are needed to stay on
course until it's in orbit. 

You just *aren't* going to get the sort of major side thrusts you are
imagining in a ship with decks perpendicular to thrust. You *will* in
one with them Parallel. Because then at some point during takeoff or
descent, especially on airless worlds, it's got to shift from "flying"
horizontally to standing on its tail. Because it *has* to be standing
on its tail to fight gravity effectively unless it's got *hideous
amounts of acceleration to spare.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:13:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How do you...

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 8/29/98 10:27:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
> dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
> << Standard policy would be to transport EPWs to the rear, preferably off
>  planet, as quickly as possible for interrogation and safety.  Once on a
>  rear area planet, the danger of teleporting prisoners is lower, but
>  psi-shields and dampers are still used.
>>>
>
> 1. Zho are human.

Funny, you could have fooled me. :-)

> 2. This isn't America (or even Earth) with the standard Geneva Convention.

> ergo. I would drug them. Captured Zho officers get an automatic injector of a
> mind-numbing drug. and continuing doses during their captivity.

There will be something similar, simply because you want your *own*
prisoners treated reasonably.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:55:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

>> Tommy, this is simply not true. A ship with perpendicular decks carrying a
>> bowling ball balanced on a thimble on the deck could take off, follow a
>> roller coaster track at 4 gees, spinning and flopping all over the place,
>> then land, on a 2 gee planet, with no inertial compensators, and if flown
>> precisely enough the bowling ball wouldn't budge because the direction of
>> the cumulative acceleration vectors would not change. This is physically
>> impossible on a ship with parallel decks.
>
> I'm not following this (might be because I can't visualize it properly),
> but it seems to me that the bowling ball is affected by two forces, the
> normal force from the deck and the gravity force from the planet. Now
> direction of the force from the planet is going to change rapidly if the
> ship makes any manouvers. Why doesn't this make the ball move around? The
> only way to keep the ball from not moving it to keep the normal force from
> the deck pointing the opposite way of gravity force.  

Which is *exactly* what will be happening during takeoff and landing.
After a bit you *will* tilt some, but it's not much of a tilt, and the
planet's gravitry is dropping with every meter you travel, while the
thrust from the ship remains constant. 

I'm pretty sure that folks on the shuttle feel the direction of "down"
change by only a few degrees during take off. And it makes a much more
pronounced orientation change than a typical traveller ship will
because it has to go into orbit (which requires a lot of side vector)
while a trader is going to be making a run straight out the the jump
limit. 

For landing, you may need to flip the ship 180 at some point. But this
can either be done by cutting thrust and doing a slow spin (little side
force), or by doing a fast or slow "skew turn" with main thrust
maintained. 

> Im not talking about properties of acceleration in space, but the effect
> of perpendicular decks on a ship in a gravity well.

But as I point out above, the decks *will* be perpendicular to the
gravity field while you are in it. Unless you are going for a low
orbit, you don't *need* to change the ship's orientation until the
planet's gravity is pretty weak. 

Ships *don't* come in like airplanes. They go straight up, and straight
down, as that *minimizes* the amount of time they have to fight
gravity, and thus saves on fuel.

> But if the decks are perpendicular to the thrust axis and we assume that
> the thrusters have to stay in the aft of the ship (most ships have the
> jump drive there to), the cargo decks on a "landing craft" has to removed
> away from aft. A ship with perpendicular decks always has to land with its
> aft towards the ground, so the cargo is some height up from the ground.

This can be a problem. On the other hand, there can be a shaft at one
side (or even in the middle) where the cargo elevator can lower all the
way to the ground. This is also useful for getting heavy parts to/from
the engineering spaces. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:26:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

In mail you write:

> What are the most common "Incident's" that old
> navy men would harrass/freak out the new guy's with?
>
> As an example, there is this naval tale from
> sci.military.naval....
>
>>I knew a Master Chief Boatswain who saw this happen on a US warship when he
>>was a deck Seaman. The anchor winch went kaka and some poor sap got drug
>>through the 14" round guide bit and into the water. The Chief said the guys
>>body didn't have an unbroken bone in it when they hauled him back up onto
>>deck after fishing the corpse out of the drink. This, of course, was his
>>standard safety speech whenever we were doing anchor ops.
>
> Now, there is certainly going to be a lot of grinding gears on large space
> vessels, but I'm looking for stufff distinctly space-flavoured.
> Say, failure of vacc suit's during EVA operations, gas giant refuelling
> gone bad, poorly maintained vechiles going BOOM when the liquid hydrogen
> decides that it's had enough.  At a guess, the typical "Incident"
> involves...

> Hydrogen.  Lot's of hydrogen
> poorly maintained equipment

Ok. You can have a fueling accident (on the ground) where the fueling
line came loose and some poor sucker got drenched with a few hundred
liters of LH2. Instant icicle.

"The docs might have been able to save something, 'cause he froze so
fast. But he was off balance. And before anybody could do anything he
fell over... and shattered. Sweeping up the peices before they thawed
was no fun at all. Had a couple of guys get sick and loose their
lunch." 

Steal an idea from the late G. Harry Stine. He wrote a book about
building a Solar Power Satellite, and had the MD on the project coin
the term "vac-bite" for the results ofbrief, partial exposure to vacuum
or near-vacuum. This is based on the *real* effects of folks losing
gloves from pressure suits at high altitude or in vacuum chambers.

The extremity swells as it fills with fluid (due to the pressure
difference making fluid tend to accumulate). Near surface capillaries
rupture, giving a distinctive "web" pattern of red on the skin. This
*doesn't* necessarily go away later. And you can get some effects
similar to bruising. 

Skin is *strong*. Unless it's damaged, it *won't* rupture. if there are
cuts or tears, they will bleed quite freely, but the blood *can* clot
well enough to close small wounds anyway (a Shuttle astronaut had a
metal bar that's part of the gloves shift and puncture both his hand
and the glove. He thought it had just pinched him until they foound
blood in the glove after the mission). 

Anyway, Vac-bite would be a useful item to add for minor accidents in
vac suits.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:09:40 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Martin Hardgrave wrote:

> In message <aa607547.35e7347a@aol.com>, Sethkimmel@aol.com writes
> > My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
> >metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts weeny.
> >What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?
> 
> IIRC alkali metals are transparent to UV, just don't don't refuel from
> oceans.
> 
> Is transparent metal as non-hard sf as psionics?

I do not know any pure metal nor an alloy that is transparent at more than
some micrometers thickness, but there are some salts, along with lots of
other compounds, which are.

If you reduce this to _metal-like_ compunds I as a chemist would have no
objection against it, such as compounds which have electric conduction
properties but are still transparent - or change their transparence by
currents.

But I have to say _I do not know_ any transparent metals - that does not
necessarily say that there _are none_ ...!

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:18:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: re: Deckplans

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
> 
>   South-Western British Columbia is a fairly high-risk earthquake zone.
> The typical "piles driven to bedrock" has been replaced in some advanced
> designs by "building sitting on rollers mounted in conecrete tray lying
> on piles and/or bedrock". I very much doubt that these buildings are
> anticipated to fall over in high winds - unless perhaps it's the blast
> from a passing near-c roc :)
> 
>         Steven Hudson
> 

But these rollers arn't above the ground level. They lay underground, so
much of the buildings walls are supported by the ground around them. There
is also lots of pillars, stairs, internal walls and so on that extend from
the ground floor down into the basements. These and the ground keeps the
building form falling over in a hurricane or a earthquake. The rollers are
there to minimize the damage.

>   Luckily, they're mythical...
> 
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:20:14 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys and 
> how do you imprison
> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the good 
> guys, and they are the
> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

I did not consider them being either good or bad, also didn't to the 3I.
(The cold war is over, and even Bond worked together with some Russians.)
The fact is, I'm playing in the 3I and for the players the Zho's are bad.
They do not yet really know them so it a little less than that.
Especially one of them, playing a Zhodani agent, must have the different
view. 

I'll try to let the above question be cleared by the players themselves.
I think they will agree to some points of the zhodani being good - at
least they have to, for not losing this special player character. But
that's interesting, everyone in the group tries to think out the best for
him.

As soon as they find out, (i.e. the players still do not know about their
spy), they'll get in contact with some Zho campaigns ...

I still have one problem - IMTU, the year is 1105 and the 5th FW still
waiting for 2 years ... I don't know if to prevent this or how ...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:16:55 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> Unfortunately, landing in a ship with parallel decks and thrust will make
> >> the problems of varying ship orientation, shifting cargo, multiple stable
> >> axes, and landing area worse.
> >
> > But still it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem from our experience
> > with planes :-)
> 
> Asides from some fighters and aerobatic stunt planes, we don't have to
> deal with thrust great than the gross weight of the aircraft! Any ship
> that's gonna make it to orbit economically *has* to have a thrust much
> greater than it's gross weight.
> 
> During at least *part* of the ascent or descent, the ship is going to
> be nose up. *Very* nose up.

But Traveller ships only have 1G acceleration and contra grav, so won't
they be just coasting out of the atmosphere?

> Hardly. It has to point the engines at the planet for landing and
> takeoff *anyway*. And only *minor* side thrusts are needed to stay on
> course until it's in orbit. 
> 
> You just *aren't* going to get the sort of major side thrusts you are
> imagining in a ship with decks perpendicular to thrust. You *will* in
> one with them Parallel. Because then at some point during takeoff or
> descent, especially on airless worlds, it's got to shift from "flying"
> horizontally to standing on its tail. Because it *has* to be standing
> on its tail to fight gravity effectively unless it's got *hideous
> amounts of acceleration to spare.

Unless of course it is streamlined or airframed and have contra gravs it
can just fly out of the gravity well. 


> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 05:41:39 PDT
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it

Hate to say it, but transparent metal is just so much Star Trek pseudo 
science.  Make a metal transparent, and you don't have a metal anymore.  
Maybe an exotic composite, but you've altered the structure of the metal 
in the process, and most likely lost the properties you wanted in the 
first place.

Jim Clem, B.S.E


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:51:38 EDT
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Wipeout or I can land it
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

I agree that the AHL deck 01 dome seemed silly to me, but how much do 
you want
to bet that the deck plates dividing deck 01 and 02 is a load 
bearing/armored
deck equivalent to the hull of the ship, and that it's depressurised as 
part
of sounding general quarters. The AHL is only partly streamlined (for 
gas
skimming) so the blunt gooseneck (assuming a blown dome) shouldn't be 
much of
a problem. I can see SOME justification for the IISS AHL's (a place to 
shoot
the stars?) though... My personal handwave would be to allow transparent
metal, but that seems too non hard science fiction to this liberal arts 
weeny.
What do the engineers and scientists on the list think?



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:10:51 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Deckplans

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And frankly, these are all rather artificial examples. If remaining stable
through nuclear-scale lateral forces or landing pads that pitch through 45
degrees is a consideration, then build it with decks perpendicular to the
thrust axis but not a needle configuration. I honestly think you're
creating straw man arguements for parallel deck orientations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Yes, perhaps comparing a 50-story building to a 70-meter streamlined
flying machine is a bit artificial.

Perhaps my 70-meter needle with it's three two-meter landing legs is
using less efficient space than your 70-meter needle sitting upright with
the much longer landing legs it would require. But you will _never_
make a needle sit upright as stable as a needle will lie down, not unless
your landing legs are posting out 30+meters in every direction.

And now you're sticking up 50 more meters or so than I am. 
The berm around my landing pad protected my ship when something
dangerous happened, your ship got knocked over.

As for getting around in airports vs getting around in skyscrapers:

Rich, you haven't been paying attention. When the Starship volume
approaches that of an airport or skyscraper, the ships are better built
like skyscrapers. Of course it takes less time to ride an elevator to the
top of a skyscraper than it takes to walk across an airport concourse.
It also takes less time to walk across the dining area of a McDonald's
than it does to wait for the elevator and ride it to the second floor.
Elevators are more efficient in some roles, they would be a silly waste
of time in a scout ship - especially considering the access ladder
you'd have to put beside it for the eventuality of it becoming stuck.

Not to mention, ships the size of skyscrapers shouldn't be landing
anyway. The only reason to have an airplane configuration
(besides the aesthetics of the designer) is to make more of your ship
easily accessible to ground crew and cargo loading. Unless your
ships are flying saucers or other pseudo-streamlined designs, you
can't do this better than airplane configurations.

IMO, you should see airplane deck configurations on any ship
designed to land on a planet - ships designed to use class B or
lower starports, or subsidiary starports. Bigger starships must need
a reason for not using a skyscraper design. A few possibilities:

Spinal mount access: The entire ship is built with access and
maintenance of the spinal mount in mind. Long rooms parallell each
section of the spinal mount, and it was found to be less complex to
have one gravity field orientation (paralell to the spinal mount).

Cargo bay: a major cargo bay is part of the ship's design, taking up
a significant portion of the ship's length. Access during flight under
normal gravity conditions (such as care of live cargo) is a desired
capability, it is more convenient for the room to be longer instead of
taller.

Other ships may have been designed with airplane configs simply
because it fit the aesthetics of the designer. Inertia is nullified,
an artificial gravity orientation of your choice is imposed on the ship,
these will cost and drain power no matter how your ship is arranged...
why not make a ship so the passengers can go up to the dorsal
observation lounge and look back over the finely sculpted radiators
to stern?

Rich, you're accusing me of picking straw men to support my argument.
This isn't what's happening. I'm taking a well-supported item from Canon
and trying to interpolate the postulated technology to make sense of
it. You, on the other hand, are sticking like a religious fanatic to
some other brand of physics (real world, maybe?), because you happen
to detest those physically impossible airplane-style deckplans.

It's science fiction. Inertia is damped, artificial gravity works. These
two items make most of the physics you're using much less relevant
to the art of starship design. If you don't like it, fine - IYTU.

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #788
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 31 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 789



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Deckplans
re: Starship Deck Orientation
Re: Psionic societies
Re:Starship depreciation
FYI: TNS
Psionics and Computers
re: Starship deck orientation
MT CharGen
The Draconis Cluster is moving
Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Titan Games Preview for 8/30/98
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Financial matters
Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
Re : Wipeout or I can land it
Re : Been there, done that, got the T-shirt
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Financial matters 
[OFF] BTRC Website
SDB numbers in systems
Parallel or perpendicular decks?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:22:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Deckplans

Richard, I don't quite get your idea for using any airplane config
deckplan with the engines moved so the decks are perpendicular
to thrust. IYTU, is any streamlining necessary? It seems you
have in mind to stick the engines any old place on the hull.
I'd rather design my ships with a smaller side flying forward, rather
than the largest.

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:39:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starship Deck Orientation

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ships *don't* come in like airplanes. They go straight up, and straight
down, as that *minimizes* the amount of time they have to fight
gravity, and thus saves on fuel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmmm...what about streamlined craft with airframe hulls?

Depending on the thrust tech you are using, you can fly to the edge
of space and then keep going - use the soup of atmosphere to some
advantage when you're deepest in the gravity well. 

How about this:

1. Contragrav nullifies gravity effects - your ship sits neutral on the pad.

2. Your maneuver thrusters kick you up a bit and maintain station - you
could theoretically use them to get to orbit, but it would take a long
time (what with all the air resistance, wind and such to overcome).

3. When far enough away from the busy downport, you start ticking up
the juice to main engines - a little at first, using vanes on your ship's
surface and some maneuver jets to keep course. Continue until you
are far enough from downport, or high enough altitude, that you're
allowed to go to full thrust. On a high-enough populated planet, you
might not be allowed to go full thrust until you were clear of COAC
jurisdiction.

4. Ride full thrust out of atmosphere and out of orbit.

The above assumes contragrav exists in your universe.


Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:02:28 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys
and 
> how do you imprison
> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the
good 
> guys, and they are the
> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

Yes!  *Many* years ago, just after the CT Zho supplement came out, I was
lucky
enough to play a pseudo-Zho PC in a campaign based on the border of the 
Consulate just outside the Spinward Marches. The best thing about the
campaign
was that psionics was just another tool and that the adventures were based
less
on player/NPC greed and more on an individual's _interpretation_ of what was

the "right thing to do". Since the information various PCs/NPCs had access
to 
differed, a number of different interpretations, some of which conflicted, 
invariably were reached and acted upon.

That and the fact that Tavr'chedl staff were usually reserved for planets
with
a population above a certain level led to some truly thought-provoking 
adventures and quite a few discussions on ethics and the nature of
enlightened
politics.

After all this time, I *still* have the character and his journal.
Hmmm...think
I'll peruse the journal tonight for old time's sake.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:26:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re:Starship depreciation

>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:02:42 -0500
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Starship Depreciation

>IYTUs, what allowance (if any) is made for starship depreciation?  I can
>see several possibilities:

>1.  (rare) The starship in question is considered a "classic", and can
>actually _increase_ in value ("An LSP Type A, model year 1099, from the
>_Regina_ yard?!?  Talk about your sweet ships!  _That'll_ run you
>extra....")

That is one possibility.  Here's something that had come up in my game,
custom reproductions.
For example a reproduction of an ancient RoM Warbird Type-40 or such.
With all the original components reproduced, THAT should cost a pretty
credit!

>2.  Ships maintained in "like-new" condition are _priced_ "like new",
>regardless of age.  Any depreciation is based on deterioration (a used
>ship with a 25% discount has enough wrong with it to justify such a loss
>in value).

Have you ever tried to keep a ship in "Mint Condition" w/o having it
mothballed in some hangar somewhere?  IMNSHO ships are far too valuable
(and expensive) to have them made as collectors' items, I don't care how
much stash you got.

>3.  Ships depreciate at a set rate, for tax/resale purposes, without
>regard to actual condition (any 30-year old ship has depreciated to,
>say, 40% of original cost).

This is about the way cars and homes are done today.  An amortization
(sp?) schedule is used to find rate of depreciation, etc...  I would think
it would be the bank in which the ship was financed by would set the rate.

>4.  Ships depreciate based on a combination of age, condition, design,
>and builder (a McDonuts Type A might be worth less than an LSP Type A,
>both of the same age and general condition).

This is by far the best possibility.  Combine the depreciation rates with
the condition of the components.  The relative value of the ship could be
computed during annual maintenance. 

>Your thoughts?

This brings into mind the possibilities of shady "used ship dealers"
throughout charted space.
You are looking to an alternative into the 40 years of debt and that
pricey down payment.  You locate a "buy here, pay here" dealer for used
starships.  You pay the man a reasonable amount of cash on an old TL-11
Free Trader, only to find out that the only thing on board the ship that
is TL-11 are the Thruster Plates!  Everything else is TL-9 or worse!  The
J-drive is a finicky peace of hardware prone to misjumps; there are power
cables in the wrong places, etc...  It looks like the thing was put
together with salvaged pieces from other ships.

Oh yeah, that brings up the subject of starship chop shops, which leads
into the capturing of ships, which leads into pira...

Let's not go there. ;-)
<The Commander hastily jumps out of system>


\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:43:03 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: FYI: TNS

This appeared on SJGames website today, on the Daily Illuminator page:

"August 31, 1998: Traveller News Service by E-mail

Those of you who have been reading the Traveller News Service on our GURPS
Traveller page can now get it by e-mail, too. Just send mail to
majordomo@pyramid.sjgames.com with the message "subscribe traveller".

And for the curious, GURPS Traveller is scheduled to ship out from SJ Games
on September 14th."

(to see it yourself, point your browser to www.sjgames.com/ill/)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:18:07 -0400
From: Daniel Mendyke <Daniel.Mendyke@digital.com>
Subject: Psionics and Computers

	>psi-switches (so-called 'flickers'). I also wonder if the Zho's
have
	>psionically rigged vehicles like the Z-80 Grav tank. 

	And at what level would they have x86 Gav tanks?

	Daniel
	http://www.virtualvoices.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:15:41 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Starship deck orientation

Walter G. Smith writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust axis
>can fly corkscrews with *no* inertial compensation without changing the
>direction of acceleration inside. You could put a bowling ball on the floor
>and it wouldn't roll. A ship with decks parallel to the thrust axis cannot
>do that, the bowling ball would begin to roll as soon as the ship moved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Well, no. If the thrust is always perpendicular to the decks, the ship
>can never turn. You'll have to apply some maneuvering thrust to
>get your corkscrews, and this maneuvering thrust _will_ make the
>bowling ball roll.

I'm assuming you can vector or direct the thrust a little. You need to do
this to be able to maneuver any vehicle, not matter the deck orientation. I
admit this creates a residual lateral force, but you can place the bowling
ball at the centre of mass and eliminate the effect. This residual force
need be only a fraction of a G and can be ignored for most practical
purposes.

If you insist on this level of detail, there are all kinds of effects like
dynamic equilibrium and moments of inertia that Traveller does not even
begin to simulate. Which is fine with me, I don't care about the little
stuff, it's the Big Stuff that's wrong that sticks in my craw.

>Rich, I know you detest airplane deckplans, but you have to keep the
>proper balance between comic-book and real-world physics here. <g>

I have no complaint with comic-book physics, so long as it enhances the
enjoyment of the game. I use psionics and thruster plates, even though they
violate the laws of thermodynamics, because they are fun and support the
Traveller background. Using volume to calculate acceleration is incorrect,
but is close enough to real-world physics and simplifies the game.

Airplane-style spacecraft deck plans are comic-book physics which add
nothing to the game. They are utterly preposterous, nothing in canon
depends on them, it would be no more complicated to do it right, yet there
they are in diagram after diagram, deck plan after deck plan, in every
incarnation of Traveller.

And it would be easy to fix it; you could leave all starship designs
unchanged, just fix up the drawings and move the engines in the deck plans
a little. But nobody does this.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:21:42 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: MT CharGen

Not too long ago someone announced they had MegaTraveller-based
character generation software available for download. Would some
kind soul please email me the URL privately, please?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:37:48 -0400
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: The Draconis Cluster is moving

Just a short note for anyone who cares.  I'm moving the Draconis Cluster
Traveller pages to my new domain and will be canceling my AOL account come
the end of September.  The new address for the Draconis Cluster will be
http://www.dragonspace.com/trav.htm

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:37:05 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser

A mercenary group has approached the consulting firm of 'Strebe,
AckerBacken & Imai' to facilitate the procurment of a 800 ton vessel
meeting the following spec's.

TL12
800 ton sphere
min. jump-2
pass cap 30(a light Infantry unit)
small craft cap min. 2-50 ton cutters

Designs requested in T4 format
RFI to be submitted to SAI care of  strebe@intergate.bc.ca
_________________________________________________________________________

Thanks guys, if we could keep this as close to the original Broadsword
'happy ball' it would be appreciated. I know return you to your regular
broadcast's.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:03:00 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Well, it looks like starships depreciate at a more-or-less regular rate,  if you
don't count things like the drives, power plant, and other stuff that wears out
over time (to annoy the players).

However, ships do seem to be pretty durable.  I would say they depreciate
based on age and tech level (in TNE there are "maintenance points" and "wear values"
for ships and parts, sounds like the best way to go... add a task roll to effect wear
and maintenance and you're all set).

If you don't use maintenance points, then calculate a ship's blue-book
value as
something like:

    value = (TL * 7  - years_old / 4)% of original cost  (100% max)

Bleah... I prefer something that can be manipulated with a task roll.

Rob

- --
NOTE: My e-mail address might be spam protected.
To correct it, add an 'e' to the front (if there isn't one there).

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:21:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for 8/30/98

  Worth considering if you can't get them locally;

>    Web Site location: http://www.titan-games.com/
...
>        (Traveller: The New Era Figures)
>            Technos (5853) [$3.8, N]
>            PR-317 Combat Robots (5858) [$3.8, N]
  
  5858 is not a great item, IMHO.
>            Aslan Mercenaries (5859) [$3.8, N]
>            Grav Bike & Rider (5860) [$6.3, N]
>        (Traveller: The New Era Starships)
>            Lab Ship w/Research Pinnace (5807) [$4.9, N]
>            Launch (x4) (5810) [$3.7, N]
>            Clipper Modules - Quarters, Fuel, Cargo (5818) [$4.4, N]
  5818 is only usable if you can get a Clipper, though.
  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:22:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Howdy!

Richard Hough wrote (with feeling!):
[snip]
> 
> Airplane-style spacecraft deck plans are comic-book physics which add
> nothing to the game. They are utterly preposterous, nothing in canon
> depends on them, it would be no more complicated to do it right, yet there
> they are in diagram after diagram, deck plan after deck plan, in every
> incarnation of Traveller.

Richard, Richard... lighten up a bit. I'm not going to try to convince
you that you are wrong; however, you need to accept that at least some of
us just don't agree with you. Reasoned arguments have been presented to
support airplane-style deck plans; likewise for the contrary. While this
may not add anything to the game, it does not do violence to the game
either.
> 
> And it would be easy to fix it; you could leave all starship designs
> unchanged, just fix up the drawings and move the engines in the deck plans
> a little. But nobody does this.
> --
> Richard Hough
> rdhough@home.com
> 
Can we just agree to disagree?

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:07:36 GMT
> From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
> 
> On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400, Walter G. Smith wrote:
> And as I stated earlier, it is extremely difficult to come up with a more
> accessible ship layout than the traditional free/fat/far trader layout,
> with fewer, larger decks.  The "skyscraper" stacking of decks works with
> the AHL class of ships (and others of significantly large tonnages) because
> the individual decks are large enough to be laid out without wasting a lot
> of space (just look how many lifts and vertical access shafts the AHL class
> has).  This technique just doesn't fly with most hull configurations in the
> <1,000 ton range.

Well, ideally speaking, you'd want a small vessel to waste no 'perimeter'
space on engines; put that in the belly, ground-down when on the surface.
This also gets you perpendicular decks, with all the safety and other
benefits that have been mentioned.  Put your one or two big decks in a
ring around the power/motor core.  It's trivial to open most of the ship
directly to the outside world, using (say) hull segments that hinge at the
bottom to become ramps.  Now, what does such an optimal hull look like...?

Seems our friends from Zeta Reticuli can teach us TMLers a thing or two
about small-starship design! :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Financial matters

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 21:50:35 -0500
> From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
>
> >As a specific example, in the PBEM I'm running the group is getting a
> >ship as part of the plot setup, not character generation.  
> 
> <snip>
> 
> First, Bruce, Craig, Keven, Tim, Suz, Terry, and James....you
> *didn't* read that part about the game you're in, and if you did,
> you immediately *forgot* it!!!!  Right?  ;->

Yeah, but it took a hell of a lot of beersii before I managed to forget.
Being cruel to your players is one thing, Eris; bragging about it on every
mailing list in sight is another.  Here I thought we'd be well into the
Great Unknown by now, selling trinkets to savages and recovering artifacts
of awesome power -- and instead, we're being investigated by local cops,
blowing coolant lines, and having NPCs waltz off to pursue careers in the
theatuh before we *even leave civilized space!*  And then...shudder...you
threaten to sic bankers and venture capitalists on us.  Grrrr.  Time for
another beersii.

> Second, I hope ya'll found my article about financial arrangements
> useful.  People were posting back and forth about stocks and
> bonds...and not getting it quite right...so, I thought I'd try to
> clear things up a little and to give a few RW options for financing
> that people might not have considered.

  Space...the final venue for amortized capitalization.
  These are the voyages of the starship Mae Lee;
  Its ten-year misson:
    To obtain liquid assets adequate to the operating needs of the
      corporation;
    To secure a return on investment comparable with the Velshun &
      Higgs Leading Merchant Indicators, consistent with preservation
      of capital;
    To boldly refinance 30-year secured loans where no sophont has
      refinanced loans before!

> This applies to Merchant Ships, of course, Scout and Lab ships are a
> slightly different matter.  And this is all IMTU.  I *do* think it
> makes sense in all TU's, but that's still just my opinion.

Yes; for the Lab Ship 'owners', substitute spending 80% of your time on
paperwork and politics to obtain the research grants needed to fund
operations... 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
       nor wind to blow..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:54:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

>   Again, if the Regency was making advances with almost no efforts, what
> had the Zhodani figured out? Within biological limitations (i.e., Cthulhu's
> special ability) and their TL (no psi-amplifiers unless TL 14-, etc.) they
> should have discovered just about everything possible within the psionic
> realm of humaniti.

One possibility is that the Zhodani have - for whatever reason - some
prejudice against machine-aided psi, and machine-only psi like mechanical
psi shields; their reseearch in these areas might progress more slowly than
one would epxect due to a prejudice in favour of "pure" mind-only psi power.
(It's cliched and irrational, but could be offered upa s a way to have
Imperial PSI sresearch be at least vaguely competetive with Zhodani.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:26:06 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Wipeout or I can land it

If you really have to have a viewport in your spacecraft, go for quartz,
sapphire, or best of all, diamond. (eg. Synthetic diamond TL 11-12, FF&S
toughness 4.50, density 2 tonnes/cubic metre).
They are brittle, true, but you would carry spares, natch.
In the event of a big crash, well maybe there would be nobody left to
care.....
My inclination would be to go for viewscreens hooked in to the ship's
sensors and a lot of backup systems.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:36:27 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Been there, done that, got the T-shirt

This thread has been interesting. Sorry, I'm going to stray off topic.
I read a paper from a recent JPL-sponsored conference where gelling
liquid hydrogen was discussed.
Adding 5% weight to weight methane turns LH2 into a more tractable
slush, apparently.
This may cut down on refuelling (fuel line) accidents and make it easier
to use those spare fuel tanks for cargo.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:36:18 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

>> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad guys
and
>> how do you imprison
>> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the
good
>> guys, and they are the
>> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?

As I recall the CT Zho Module had a scenario with the PC working with the
Zho on a  survey to the core starting before the 5th frontier war and
returning after the war.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:01:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Financial matters 

> > >As a specific example, in the PBEM I'm running the group is getting a
> > >ship as part of the plot setup, not character generation.  
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > First, Bruce, Craig, Keven, Tim, Suz, Terry, and James....you
> > *didn't* read that part about the game you're in, and if you did,
> > you immediately *forgot* it!!!!  Right?  ;->
> 
> Yeah, but it took a hell of a lot of beersii before I managed to forget.
> Being cruel to your players is one thing, Eris; bragging about it on every
> mailing list in sight is another.  Here I thought we'd be well into the
> Great Unknown by now, selling trinkets to savages and recovering artifacts
> of awesome power -- and instead, we're being investigated by local cops,
> blowing coolant lines, and having NPCs waltz off to pursue careers in the
> theatuh before we *even leave civilized space!*  And then...shudder...you
> threaten to sic bankers and venture capitalists on us.  Grrrr.  Time for
> another beersii.

Wait til you get to Mark.  Then things'll start getting *weird*.

BTW, *what* were we supposed to forget again??

> > This applies to Merchant Ships, of course, Scout and Lab ships are a
> > slightly different matter.  And this is all IMTU.  I *do* think it
> > makes sense in all TU's, but that's still just my opinion.
> 
> Yes; for the Lab Ship 'owners', substitute spending 80% of your time on
> paperwork and politics to obtain the research grants needed to fund
> operations... 

Makes sense.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 02:19:22 +0100
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: [OFF] BTRC Website

Hello

Is any one out there able to tell me what happened to the Blacksburg Tactical
Research website. When I click on my bookmark I get an AOL message telling me
it's not on their server.

Any one out there able to help?

Thanks

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 1 SEP 98 11:05:14 EST
From: GWyatt@email.dot.gov.au
Subject: SDB numbers in systems

> This is a message in MIME format.
> Your mail reader does not support MIME so
> part of this message may be unreadable.

- --ZoomitID_=_t1278631.878
Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: Inline

I've been looking at a chart in an old JTAS article "Troops in the Fifth
Frontier War" - I've found it  helpful for determining numbers of
Battalion-equivalents per system/world. (I'm looking at applying the Cardwell
reforms to the British Army (1881) to the Imperial Army - will pass it on to
the list when finished.)

Is there any equivalent for SDB numbers? I've looked at Pocket Empires but I'm
hoping that a similar look-up chart might be available. 

Garry Wyatt, Acting Manager (Client Services)
Commonwealth Department of Transport & Regional Development
ph: (02) 6274 7106, fax: (02) 6274 7728
Email: GWyatt@email.dot.gov.au

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:57:42 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Parallel or perpendicular decks?

I think both will be encountered. On the face of it perpendicular makes a lot 
more sense in most situations, but I think there are some were parallel decks 
make more sense. As an example take my Tracy class longships. This is my 
take on a TL 11 200 Td Free Trader (a traveller staple). This design is intended 
as a simple no frills tramp serving frontier and backwater worlds. Thus it has to 
be built to load and unload every variety of cargo (not only standardised cargo 
modules) on a world surface with little or no assistance. It has a cargo capacity 
of 100 Td (half its volume) and uses a slab configeration (12m x 5m x 48m) 
giving a cargo area of 12m x 5m x 24m. If it used a perpendicular layout this 
would give a single 60m2 x 24m cargo bay. With a parallel layout you get a 
single 288m2 x 5m cargo bay. With a perpendicular layout you have to lift the 
cargo 24m (roughly 10 stories), with a parallel layout you only have to lift it 5m 
(roughly 2 stories). You can load the parallel deck with nothing more complex 
than a ramp, rollers and some local muscle (TL 0). I think _in_this_case_ the 
advantages of a parallel deck outweigh the advantages of a perpendicular deck.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #789
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, September 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 790



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Financial Matters
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
re: Deckplans
MT Starship spreadsheet
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
GURPS TNS
TL9: Jump capable assault pod
TL15: Small abduction craft
Re: How do you...
Re: Deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:12:41 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Financial Matters

Craig Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Space...the final venue for amortized capitalization.
  These are the voyages of the starship Mae Lee;
  Its ten-year misson:
    To obtain liquid assets adequate to the operating needs of the
      corporation;
    To secure a return on investment comparable with the Velshun &
      Higgs Leading Merchant Indicators, consistent with preservation
      of capital;
    To boldly refinance 30-year secured loans where no sophont has
      refinanced loans before!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's fun to charter an accountant,
And sail the wide accountan-cy.
To find, explore the funds offshore,
And skirt the shoals of bankruptcy.

It can be manly in insurance.
We'll up your premium semi-anually.
It's all tax-deductible,
We're fairly incorruptible.
We're sailing on the wide accountan-cy!




(The above thanks to Monty Python, of course)



(And copyright thereof)



(Used as homage, really. No violation of copyright intended)



(No, really, wouldn't dream of it. Love their work.)



(Never mind.)




Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ Spam++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-)
au(-) ?st Spam!EggsSausage++Spam ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ 
va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+  0601SpamSpamSpacesuitsandSpam



Spam.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 02:42:12 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:19:14 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:

> >Don't get me wrong, I like the "skyscraper" layout like the AHL.  I just
> >don't think it works well with the smaller displacement ships, within which
> >most Traveller players spend most of their shipboard time in.  I'd like to
> >see the deckplans for a scout/courier with such a layout.  Cabins would
> >have to be arranged one to a deck and stacked on top of each other :)
> 
> Not true. The type S scout/courier is a lot wider than a single cabin;
> there is plenty of room for many cabins on each deck.

Well, considering that most of the usable deck area of the S/C consists of
the main deck (which is 3m tall, including space used for ventilation,
plumbing, etc.), you could have a realistic maximum of about two staterooms
per deck.  The bridge and avionics now take up multiple decks, and the
common area, air/raft bay, and cargo bays would each require their own
decks.  The engine room will also consist of multiple decks of catwalks, in
order to service the now vertical engines.  Storing cargo will also require
multiple decks to properly access anything (the S/C's cargo access is
solely through iris valves and standard hatches).  Don't forget that we are
now talking about a wedge shaped airframe with a maximum footprint of
9x20m.  Sophisticated landing struts will be needed to keep this ship
upright during any severe wind conditions.

Of course, this all changes if we adopt a saucer or sphere shaped hull
instead, but I'm not about to tamper with the traditional vessel
silhouettes of the Traveller universe :)

> And even if there weren't, so what? Ships already have elevators and
> ladders, by stacking rooms on top of each other we could get rid of all
> those space-wasting corridors.

By adding a minimum of two* space-wasting elevator shafts/ladders?

* I use the number 2 as a minimum, since elevators and vertical ladders do
  not allow people to pass by one another.  You must wait for the elevator
  to be free or the ladder to be clear before you can use it, while passing
  in a 1.5m wide hallway is much easier.  If the AHL was laid out like the
  S/C, you could move 500 troops from one end to the other far more easily
  than you could with the AHL's 3 main-- and 4 tiny-- elevator shafts.





James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:33:10 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>
>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 23:04:09 -0500
>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
>
>If the political entity taxes depreciable property (like ships) it
>usually does so based on the property's worth as depreciated, using
>some set rate.  I usually use straight line for simplicty, but there
>are a lot of other possiblities.  This depreciation rate doesn't
>relate directly to the actual utility of the ship, just its taxable
>worth.  An asset can be reduced to 0 taxable worth, but still
>generating income for the owner because it still has an economic
>utility.
>

For what it's worth, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (Pub 946) sets the
depreciation "lifetime" for 

"Vessels, Barges, Tugs, and Similar Water Transportation Equipment, except
those used in marine construction"

at 18 years.  Clearly, this is accelerated depreciation for tax purposes,
as Eris discusses - which is why I couldn't use the data in estimating the
economically useful life of ships (my original interest).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 03:36:32 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:40:46 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:

> >But still they are much more fastened to the ground than a ship landing on
> >legs, and is not really a good example of the topic in this discussion.
> 
> No, skyscrapers are not necessarily any more "fastened to the ground" than
> a ship, or a rock for that matter. In fact, a ship with landing clamps may
> even be fastened more securely. A skyscraper could simply rest on the
> ground with nothing physically holding it there and be perfectly stable
> (assuming the ground is strong enough to hold it up).

Excuse me!?!  "Simply *rest* on the ground?"  Skyscrapers rest *in* the
ground, which is far more stable than a ship or rock resting *on* the
ground (even with "landing clamps").

> I think skyscrapers are a good analogy because they show a real-world
> example of something which:
> 
> 1. Has "decks" perpendicular to their "thrust axis" (OK, gravity in this case).

Agreed.

> 2. Is a safe and efficient needle configuration, which the parallel-deck
> crowd (PDC) seems to think is some kind of worst-case scenario.

It would be a worst case scenario, if constructed on the scale of an
average three bedroom home.  I repeatedly stated that the skyscraper
analogy works perfectly fine for large vessels.  It does not work well when
scaled down to the size of vessel that most PCs will be around.

> 3. Is perfectly stable, able to stand up in hurricanes and earthquakes,
> despite the claims of the PDC that a vehicle merely six times its width in
> height would "blow over in a breeze".

It very well could.  The "ship" is resting on three or four pads, each
supporting a third or a fourth of the ship's total mass.  If one pad landed
on terrain that was softer than the rest, the ship is *already* unstable.

A skyscraper, OTOH, has it's foundation firmly "anchored" in a mass of
concrete and rebar dozens of metres *into* the ground.  More importantly,
the mass of the skyscraper is distributed over its entire foot print, not
three or four tiny (by comparison) landing pads.

> 3. Uses elevators and stairways without the occupants pining for mile-long
> corridors.

Elevator shafts have one car per shaft.  This is wasteful, when compared to
a corridor where you could move hundreds of people in the amount of time it
would take for a motorized "box" to move a dozen individuals horizontally
in a tunnel.  Furthermore, stairways take up about 3-4 times the amount of
space that a hallway would take up, if orientated in the same plane.

> 4. Provides a useful visual image for those who think a spacecraft is a
> kind of airplane, with the same design constraints that an airplane has.

I repeat: "It would work fine for ships that are skyscraper-sized".

> 5. Actually has the same physical structure as some kinds of canon
> Traveller spacecraft, like the Azanti High Lightning.

A 60,000 Dt vessel.

> >The point was that it is more likly for a ship with perpendicular decks to
> >by high, and should these fall over the damage is going to be much more
> >extensive. A ship with parallelle decks will fall maksimum a few meters to
> >the ground, while a needle ship with perpendicular decks can fall 20 - 30
> >meters before hiting the ground.
> 
> The forces required to topple a large tall structure may be more than you
> expect. A needle ship with parallel decks hit with enough force to topple
> one with perpendicular decks will probably do enough damage to make the
> fall moot (IMHO, it would be hard to calculate this).

Take a compacted cylinder of dirt and stand it on end.  Now push it gently
with your palm until it falls over.  Now push a similar column that is laid
out horizontally with the same amount of force (again, using your palm).
You'll note that the second example does not cause the cylinder to
experience nearly as much damage as the first.  IOW, a ship with
perpendicular decks will suffer far more damage than one with parallel
decks, if the forces are identical.

> If you build ships prone to falling over then don't build one in this
> configuration. I'm not trying to cop out, I feel a lot of these complaints
> are of the form "yeah, but I can build a ship with perpendicular decks that
> has a really inappropriate design...". You can build a bad design of
> anything. The advantages of perpendicular decks are in its basic physical
> properties, not an individual design. A needle configuration is better for
> some situations and worse for others.

Exactly.  What some people are against is the "idea" of changing many of
the canon Traveller vessels so that they now have perpendicular decks.  If
you change the hull configuration even the smallest amount, you've changed
the silhouettes that most of us have become fond of.

> Actually, you *could* build a needle or wedge ship with perpendicular decks
> which lies flat on the ground; just put the main drive in the ship's belly.
> It might wobble, depending on things like cargo distribution, and might
> have some weird gyroscopic effect when rotating in combat, but its
> perfectly workable. Perhaps there would be a market on planets which think
> spaceships have to fly like airplanes...

Come again?  A needle or wedge hull configuration-- with decks laid out
perpendicular to the axis of thrust-- with the main drive in the bottom of
the ship?  That I understand (eg: AHL), except that you would be constantly
fighting the ship in order to fly in even a straight line.  But landing it
*flat* on the ground?  Now you need artificial gravity to keep
everyone/everything from sliding towards one "side" of the ship.  Didn't
one of the points of this thread have to do with the subsequent loss of the
ship's gravity generators?  Or did it have to do with the wasted energy of
maintaining a gravity field perpendicular to the axis of flight?  I forget.

> >Calm down, dear sir. All I have seen so far as a good and solid argument
> >for perpendicular decks are the gravity issue. As someone else pointed
> >out, the cargo access problem is something that makes the parallelle decks
> >best. So I think you'll se both in the Imperium.
> 
> If you see having to use cranes or elevators to load cargo as a "problem",
> then you should use short squat ships with perpendicular decks. Ships with
> parallel decks have no advantage in this situation, or any other, at all.

But the original idea of this thread (I think) was not to suddenly change
all of the canon starship layouts, but to come up with a good reason for
decks orientated in line with the thrust axis.

And you've just explained one advantage of parallel decks: that of the
*lack* of a need for cranes or elevators to unload bulky cargo.  Wanna
unload a shipment of wheeled vehicles from your Fat Trader?  No problemo!

> >> Tommy, this is simply not true. A ship with perpendicular decks carrying a
> >> bowling ball balanced on a thimble on the deck could take off, follow a
> >> roller coaster track at 4 gees, spinning and flopping all over the place,
> >> then land, on a 2 gee planet, with no inertial compensators, and if flown
> >> precisely enough the bowling ball wouldn't budge because the direction of
> >> the cumulative acceleration vectors would not change. This is physically
> >> impossible on a ship with parallel decks.
> >
> >I'm not following this (might be because I can't visualize it properly),
> >but it seems to me that the bowling ball is affected by two forces, the
> >normal force from the deck and the gravity force from the planet. Now
> >direction of the force from the planet is going to change rapidly if the
> >ship makes any manouvers. Why doesn't this make the ball move around? The
> >only way to keep the ball from not moving it to keep the normal force from
> >the deck pointing the opposite way of gravity force.
> 
> Well, it is affected by three forces: gravity, the normal force from the
> deck, and acceleration due to the main engine. However, the vector result
> of these two forces is a third force in a third direction. The ball doesn't
> move around because you direct the main thrust at an angle so that the
> resultant main thrust and external gravity vector is normal to the ship
> deck. That's why the bowling ball doesn't move, in fact it is held to the
> deck even harder!
> 
> OK, I am fudging a little here because I'm assuming you have some way of
> changing the ship's orientation to point the main engines in the right
> direction without causing significant centrifugal effects or lateral
> acceleration. To a first approximation, this force is insignificant
> compared to the external forces. Maybe the main engine is on gimbals or
> something...
> 
> The point is that you swivel the main engines to provide a thrust
> counteracting external accelerations, *and the deck swivels along with it*.
> The main thrust has to be directed in a way that "balances" the external
> forces or the ship will go off course. And since the decks are
> perpendicular to the main thrust this balancing force will be (to a first
> approximation) normal to the decks. The cumulative effect of all this
> maneuvering to the bowling ball is that acceleration toward the deck
> changes in intensity, but not direction

This only works if the entire ship revolves around the bowling ball.  IOW,
the bowling ball would have to be at the exact center of mass of the ship.
This is **HIGHLY** unlikely, so the bowling ball would indeed topple.

> >But if the decks are perpendicular to the thrust axis and we assume that
> >the thrusters have to stay in the aft of the ship (most ships have the
> >jump drive there to), the cargo decks on a "landing craft" has to removed
> >away from aft.
> 
> Sure it does, but it doesn't take up any more space. Look at the old scout
> and free trader, they have engines on the lower decks and still have space
> for cargo. A ship with perpendicular decks can do the same thing. In fact,
> you can convert the old free trader and scout deck plans to a perpendicular
> deck orientation simply by moving the engines from the aft of the ship to
> under the center of gravity. The engines don't get bigger, cargo space
> doesn't get smaller, you just have to move it a bit.

How do you move the engines "under the center of gravity" without changing
the axis of thrust of the vessel?  You would have to use two drive rooms in
a manner similar to the Gazelle CE, with the cargo bay in between.  And now
your cargo bay is taller than it is wide or deep, requiring subdividing
"floors" to properly stow everything.

> >A ship with perpendicular decks always has to land with its
> >aft towards the ground, so the cargo is some height up from the ground.
> 
> This does not follow at all. Why would you move the cargo up higher? In
> fact, there may be *more* room for cargo on the bottom deck; if you assume
> the main engines have to be longer in their direction of thrust, like a
> rocket, then the engines would be put "up on end" and take *less* space on
> the bottom deck that the existing free trader and scout plans!
> 
> I think you may be getting carried away with the example of a needle
> configuration; I use it solely because the PDC seem to think it is some
> kind of physical impossibility. Certainly, it will have a smaller
> "footprint" that the same configuration with a parallel deck orientation,
> and this *may* make it less suitable for low-tech cargo. So use a different
> configuration. The canon scout and far traders are not needles so this is a
> moot arguement, IMHO.

The canon scout is a wedge configuration, which isn't really that far off
from the needle configuration.  The canon image of the Guardian SDB appears
to be a wedge or streamlined box, yet it is listed as a needle
configuration.  Which do we believe?



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 03:46:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:15:41 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:

> Airplane-style spacecraft deck plans are comic-book physics which add
> nothing to the game. They are utterly preposterous, nothing in canon
> depends on them, it would be no more complicated to do it right, yet there
> they are in diagram after diagram, deck plan after deck plan, in every
> incarnation of Traveller.

Saying that nothing in canon depends on parallel-oriented decks is in
itself, preposterous.  You would invalidate any and all canonical deckplans
and/or adventures that already exist.  That's a pretty big "nothing".

The whole "premise" behind the fat trader would be lost.  It has a drive
thru cargo bay for easy loading and an airframe for maneuvering in an
atmosphere.

Why *must* all Traveller vessels be designed with perpendicular decks
again?  I 100% agree that the concept works fine for larger ships, but it
just doesn't work well enough with smaller ships to be worth arguing about.

> And it would be easy to fix it; you could leave all starship designs
> unchanged, just fix up the drawings and move the engines in the deck plans
> a little. But nobody does this.

Because it isn't worth the effort.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:59:50 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Deckplans

>But these rollers arn't above the ground level.
>They lay underground, so
>much of the buildings walls are supported by the ground around them.
>There
>is also lots of pillars, stairs, internal walls and so on that extend from
>the ground floor down into the basements. These and the ground keeps the
>building form falling over in a hurricane or a earthquake.
>The rollers are
>there to minimize the damage.

How does one respond to a post like this?
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:56:15 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: MT Starship spreadsheet

Greetings, 

     I am wondering if anyone has, or knows where to find, a MT ship design
spreadsheet?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:46:07 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

I have to agree with those who see a purpose for ships that have decks
that are parallel to the line of thrust, BUT that there are too many of
these "airplane deck" ships in the published material.

My sugestion is for those who believe in the perpendicular
decks-to-thrust line to design the following ships in this style: Free
Trader, Far Trader, and Subsidized Merchant.  And lets see if we can get
them added to the existing designs in a future publication.

The requirements:
  1) Line of thrust goes through the center of mass (close approx.) both
loaded and empty
  2) Best streamlining in the line of thrust
  3) footprint large enough for stability in wilderness landings (saturn
rockets and ttail landing of a standard scout are NOT stable for
wilderness landings)
  4) ease of cargo access for both standard cargo modules (for this use
5dT modules 3m w x 3m h x 7.5m l) and any cargo at TL0

In addition to these the Subsidized Liner, Close Escort, and SDB need to
be redesigned as these ships need not land on a planet. (the current
configuration of the SDB would be appropreate for lying-in-wait in a
gravity well)

I have taken these examples from the Traders and Gunboats LBB, later we
can work on other standard designs

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 01:59:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

>   Again, if the Regency was making advances with almost no efforts, what
> had the Zhodani figured out? Within biological limitations (i.e., Cthulhu's
> special ability) and their TL (no psi-amplifiers unless TL 14-, etc.) they
> should have discovered just about everything possible within the psionic
> realm of humaniti.

The Regency is making advances with "almost no efforts."  Remember that psi
institute on Regina has been going for quite awhile.  They're just de-
criminalizing  and promoting it.  The artificial psi stuff is probably limited
to the Regency though.  The Zhos probably wouldn't allow it IMO.  "Some
deranged prole wants to duplicate noble abilities?" 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:33:20 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: GURPS TNS

The latest entry from the pen of Loren Wiseman has stirred the pot...
(and I'm mixing metaphors, I know, so sue me..)

go to http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html, and see the
latest instalment. DID Dulinor die? If he didn't then where is he? If he
wasn't the target, then who was? Watch out for more news, same bat-time,
same bat-channel (Ooops!)

Andy

PS - Conspiracy theories welcome

================================================================
smtp Email:			andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
						andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:			c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
						s=Long;i=AG;
						o=International
Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237			Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:47:00 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: TL9: Jump capable assault pod

I have a working version of my SSDS computer program ;-)  I celebrated
this by designing a really strange craft. This craft, or rather a
significant bunch of them, could be used for assault on other low tech
worlds... as long as the crew/soldiers of the pods do not mind being
stuffed inside a *very* small ship alone for a week <g>

**************************   Designed with the Standard Ship Design System
*Low-tech assault capsule*   Version number 2.02
**************************   Designer: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

Techlevel: 9
Price: 25.931 MCr

Hull: Needle, 10 tons, 21.0 meters (airframe)
Cargo hold: 0.0
   Hatches: 1
Passengers high: 0
           low : 0
Jumpdrive range: 1 parsecs
Maneuverdrives:
  Fusion engine                : 1.4 Gs
Controls: Computer linked minimal

Total crew: 1

Armor    : 0
Structure: 1
Sensors  : 0.1A 0.1P 0J
Size code: 7

Powerplant capacity: 10 MW

The fuel tank can contain 1.42 tons of fuel
A jump consumes 1.00 tons per parsec
Using the fusion engine requires 0.05 tons per G per hour
Using the normal powerplants requires 0.07 tons per year

The following crew and passenger accomodations are available:
  1 bunks

The ship has standard life support and 0 airlocks
G-forces during acceleration are handled by G-tanks

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
|               In politics, left is right!               |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:24:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: "Jens \"Spacejens\" Rydholm" <spacejens@h72.ryd.student.liu.se>
Subject: TL15: Small abduction craft

Woah! Designing spaceships is fun... I have always wondered how aliens
abduct people. This is my take at it:

***********************   Designed with the Standard Ship Design System
*Small abduction craft*   Version number 2.03
***********************   Designer: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

Techlevel: 15
Price: 37.123 MCr

Hull: Dome/disc, 20 tons, 12.0 meters (airframe)
Cargo hold: 0.4
   Hatches: 1
Passengers high: 0
           low : 2
Jumpdrive range: 2 parsecs
Maneuverdrives:
  Thruster plates              : 5.9 Gs
Controls: Holographic linked standard

Total crew: 1

Armor    : 30
Structure: 5
Sensors  : 1A 2P 0J
Size code: 7 (stealth)

Powerplant capacity: 50 MW

The fuel tank can contain 4.36 tons of fuel
A jump consumes 2.00 tons per parsec
Using the normal powerplants requires 0.36 tons per year

The following crew and passenger accomodations are available:
  1 bunks
  2 low berths

The ship has standard life support and 0 airlocks
The inertial compensators can handle 6 Gs. All acceleration is compensated

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jens "Spacejens" Rydholm    http://spacejens.ml.org     |
| jenry023@student.liu.se     Telephone: +46(0)13-4730961 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU ?tc t4 ru ge+ 3i- jt+ a ?st ls kk++ hi+ as++ va++  |
|      ?dr so- zh ?da sy+                                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
|               In politics, left is right!               |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:00:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How do you...

In mail, traveller@MPGN.COM writes:

> On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>
>> With all the talk of psionics and the Consulate, I was wondering how you
>> incarcerate Zho POWs that are teleporters?  I know the psi-shield blocks
>> incoming scans, but what would the 3I do to keep the PWs inside the fence
>> and not outside causing havoc?  Further, just how _do_ you determine that
>> that fella over there in a Zho officers or specialist's uniform is
>> psionicly adept?
>
> As I know, teleportation over a planet's distance is impossible.
> So, if the Prison Camp is located on a world with only one starport, which
> ist rigorosly controlled and even a secret for the PoWs, there ought to be
> little chance for them to escape. They need to know where to go before
> teleporting.
>
> There are also implications in teleporting far distances around a world,
> as velocity vectors stay unchanged whilst teleport. You NEVER can teleport
> to the backside of a world without losing your health - or better life.
> Also you cannot teleport to an orbital station or shuttle, as the change
> of gravity decreases your potential energy, which must be converted from
> body heat ... (explained in one the modules, don't know which)
>
> It is easier to imprison teleporters than you think.

Heck, steal an idea from one of James Wite's lesser known works. Pick a
habitable but undeveloped planet (say there weren't any mineral
deposits worth the trouble), and dump the prisoners there. If you are
*really* worried, land them using modified "personal re-entry kits".
Make supply drops of medecines and food supplements from time to time. 

No need for guards, and they can wander all they want (though they'd be
smart to stay near the area where the supplies get dropped).

You do have some satellites in orbit to keep an eye on things. 

This opens up some lovely rescue scenarios.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:08:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:
>
>> >From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>> 
>>   South-Western British Columbia is a fairly high-risk earthquake zone.
>> The typical "piles driven to bedrock" has been replaced in some advanced
>> designs by "building sitting on rollers mounted in conecrete tray lying
>> on piles and/or bedrock". I very much doubt that these buildings are
>> anticipated to fall over in high winds - unless perhaps it's the blast
>> from a passing near-c roc :)
>> 
>>         Steven Hudson
>> 
>
> But these rollers arn't above the ground level. They lay underground, so
> much of the buildings walls are supported by the ground around them. There
> is also lots of pillars, stairs, internal walls and so on that extend from
> the ground floor down into the basements. These and the ground keeps the
> building form falling over in a hurricane or a earthquake. The rollers are
> there to minimize the damage.

Again, they do *not* keep the building from falling over. 

Try this. Draw a silhouette of a skyscraper. Mark the center of mass.
Now, see how far you have to tilt the building to get the center of
mass *beyond* the building's "footprint". 

You'll find that this requires moving the upper end of the building by
*huge* amounts. Far more than any wind is going to, and more than any
quake will either (unless there's an uplift fault under one side of the
building *and* it uplifts quites a bit)

Also, try calculating how far *up* the center of mass had to move while
the building was pivoting on the side to get the CoM outside the
footprint. Now try to figure out the approximate mass of the building
and how much energy it takes to lift that much mass that far. 

*That* is why buildings don't topple. The foundations are to keep them
from *sinking*.

You *can't* extrapolate from the behavior of objects of the size you
normally handle to that of objects 10 or 100 times bigger. The
square-cube law makes the situations too different. Scale *matters*. 

And a ship that's 40 meters tall is a lot closer to the building scale
that to the "human" scale our intuition works with.

Oh yeah, for the folks worried about landing legs on soft ground
causing a ship to topple? I suggest re-reading the description of
starport types. Why do you suppose that type E is described as
"essentially a marked spot of BEDROCK"? Maybe to avoid exactly that
problem? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #790
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, September 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 791



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cargo Handling Proceadures
Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Hotel Room spot available at DragonCon in Atlanta
Re: Psionic societies
Re: GURPS TNS
Re: SDB numbers in systems
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Starship deck orientation
re: Deckplans
Re: Deckplans
Re: Starship deck orientation
Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:49:46 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Cargo Handling Proceadures

The discussion on parallel and perpendicular decks got me to thinking about 
just how is cargo loaded, especially on ships with perpendicular decks (which 
will have cargo bays considerably higher than wide or deep. Here's what I've 
come up with for cargos contained in standardised modules. First assume that 
these standard modules have magnetic clamps built into their roofs and small 
(very) thrusters into their bases. The cargo modules are loaded so that they 
cover the floor of the cargo bay, then the ships gravitic compensators are used 
to neutralise gravity in the cargo bay (putting it into zero-g), the thrusters in the 
modules fire propelling the modules to the ceiling at a gentle rate, when they 
reach the ceiling the magnetic clamps engage locking them in position. The 
process is then repeated until the bay is full. The mark of a good loading crew 
is that they can send individual modules to the ceiling without having to fully 
position the entire "layer" on the cargo bay floor.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

************************************************************
  Hanging out for more TNS Loren (pretty please grovel)
************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:41:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

Here's a couple of questions for those of you who are knowledgable about
planetology.

First question: Is it possible for the taint of a standard, tainted
atmosphere to be carbondioxide? Remember, a standard atmosphere by
definition has enough oxygen for a human to survive breathing it and
a taint can, again by definition, be eliminated by the use of a filter
mask. So

1)	would high CO2 levels interfere with breathing if there were enough
	oxygen too? If, for example, you had the standard percentage of
	oxygen, but more CO2 and less nitrogen?

2)	can CO2 be filtered out by a simple filter mask?

Second question: Is it possible for an otherwise standard oxy-nitrogen
atmosphere to have a naturally occurring carbonmonoxide taint? I'm
thinking about Sacnoth which has a high enough CO content to kill the
average unprotected man in about 7 days. how big a taint would that be?
Could it be the result of natural processes? Could it be the result of
industrial pollution?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 06:42:39 PDT
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

In response to your questions:

1) Yes, More CO2 will affect you, on a metabolic level.  Not nicely 
either.

2) Yes, you can filter out CO2 easily, using a particular crystalline 
material (I forget the name).  The same system has been used in 
spacecraft and submarines for decades.

Jim C.


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:41:30 +0200 (METDST)
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Here's a couple of questions for those of you who are knowledgable about
planetology.

First question: Is it possible for the taint of a standard, tainted
atmosphere to be carbondioxide? Remember, a standard atmosphere by
definition has enough oxygen for a human to survive breathing it and
a taint can, again by definition, be eliminated by the use of a filter
mask. So

1)	would high CO2 levels interfere with breathing if there were enough
	oxygen too? If, for example, you had the standard percentage of
	oxygen, but more CO2 and less nitrogen?

2)	can CO2 be filtered out by a simple filter mask?

Second question: Is it possible for an otherwise standard oxy-nitrogen
atmosphere to have a naturally occurring carbonmonoxide taint? I'm
thinking about Sacnoth which has a high enough CO content to kill the
average unprotected man in about 7 days. how big a taint would that be?
Could it be the result of natural processes? Could it be the result of
industrial pollution?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:59:41 -0500
From: Steve Fellows <sbf1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Hotel Room spot available at DragonCon in Atlanta

Fellow Travellers!

I will be attending DragonCon this year in Atlanta, which starts
Thursday of this week.
(Registration starts Wednesday night: TOMORROW).
I have a two bed hotelroom and at the last minute I do not have a
roommate.  If anyone
out there is planning on attending the con and would like to share the
room with me,
please either send me email, and/or leave a message for me at the hotel
desk in Atlanta. I
will check my email tonight and tomorrow morning prior to departure.   I
would prefer
to know if someone is interested so we can plan to meet.  My phone
number is 214-341-5714.  I do plan on registering Wed night for the
convention, so allow for that in planning to meet me.

Hell, if you are a fellow Traveller from this list, don't need a room
and just want to meet for
a beer or several, leave me a message!

The Details:
Where:The room is in the Hyatt Regency Hotel (the main party hotel) on
Peachtree Street..  Yes, the hotel that was sold out since April!  I
will be arriving Wednesday at approximately 4 pm to check into
the room.  This is approximate, allowing me two hours buffer from the
time my flight
is 'scheduled' to arrive in Atlanta from Dallas.
When: I will have the room Wednight night to Sunday night, departing
Monday morning.
Cost: Currently the room is $119. night + taxes.  If we have to pay
extra to get extra
keys and towels, so be it.  I want to split everything evenly, except
for parking costs.
You are on your own with this, and so if this is the only extra that
needs to increase
the cost then if you need it, it would be much appreciated if you cover
that.  I would
prefer someone who will stay the whole time while I am there to split
the whole thing.
Roommates: I am male, and don't care the persuasion or whatever type of
sophont would
like to share.  However, smoke in the room irritates me, and I will
request a non-smoking room.  My only stipulation is that I have a bed to
myself and people let me sleep.  Usually the ONLY time I am ever in the
room is at night when I want to sleep.  If there are two or three or
more people who want in, then they can decide who shares the second bed
versus the floor.  I have requested a room on the lower floors, near the
party floors but not on them.

Folks, I have done this before at other cons, and it works out pretty
well.  Last year,
at San Antonio World Con I was the guy looking for space in the party
hotel.  Two years before, I had an extra room at GenCon which I shared
with someone on this list.  This
year, I am the guy with the room.   I am not worried if I don't hear
from someone on this
list;  usually you can find someone at the con.

Remember, leave a message for me at the hotel desk.  If you care to
meet, 4 or 5 pm at the
main desk would probably be best (earlier the better).
thanks,

Steven Fellows
214-341-5714
Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:15:42 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

Wayne Ewart reminded us:
>
>>> With all this wonderful conversation about how the Zho's are the bad
guys
and
>>> how do you imprison
>>> a psi, I was wondering if anyone has run a game where the Zho's are the
good
>>> guys, and they are the
>>> central society to the game rather than the Imperium?
>
>As I recall the CT Zho Module had a scenario with the PC working with the
>Zho on a  survey to the core starting before the 5th frontier war and
>returning after the war.

I believe you're right. It also has GDW's first attempt at rules for
exploring
and surveying uncharted space. Not too bad, actually.

BTW, there was a post awhile back which stated that there could be no
non-psionic Intendants or Nobles onboard Zho warships. This is true;
by definition, Intendants/Nobles have *some* kind of psionic ability.
However...non-psionic proles *can* become officers by attending OCS 
and possibly gain a command. Even as officers, though, they cannot
receive psionic training.

One last thing. Zhodani psionicists *can* increase their Psi rating
during their career. Every Zho character (PC/NPC) I've generated
ended up with a Psi rating of at least 11 with a minimum of 2 Psi
skills. One even made it to 15 with every Psi skill in the book.

Kinda scary...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:22:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS TNS

Andy Long wrote:
> 
> The latest entry from the pen of Loren Wiseman has stirred the pot...
> (and I'm mixing metaphors, I know, so sue me..)
> 
> go to http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html, and see the
> latest instalment. DID Dulinor die? If he didn't then where is he? If he
> wasn't the target, then who was? Watch out for more news, same bat-time,
> same bat-channel (Ooops!)

My guess? IF he's alive, he's haulin' a** for somewhere out of reach of INI.
Something blew his plot, most likely daddy's little girl. His brother the
Admiral, under ummm, questioning [1], ratted out everyone else, which is why
he was allowed to resign and go back to the family farm to recuperate, rather
than die of a sudden heart attack.

My bet's still on Dulinor being on the ship, though. A maybe dead, maybe not
leader of a glorious revolution is generally much more effective never coming
back, since in glorious martyrdom to the cause they don't have all of those
nasty human failings that show up later.

Also, if they thought for a moment that Dulinor was alive, Astrin would be
dead as the most powerful second in command.

[1] Why did I suddenly get a flash of the Admiral in the Box with Pembleton
and Bayliss?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:30:41 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: SDB numbers in systems

>I've been looking at a chart in an old JTAS article "Troops in the Fifth
>Frontier War" - I've found it  helpful for determining numbers of
>Battalion-equivalents per system/world. (I'm looking at applying the
>Cardwell
>reforms to the British Army (1881) to the Imperial Army - will pass it on
>to
>the list when finished.)
>
>Is there any equivalent for SDB numbers? I've looked at Pocket Empires
>but I'm
>hoping that a similar look-up chart might be available. 

Both are given in Imperial Squadrons, along with rules on computing
jump-capable squadrons.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:02:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> First question: Is it possible for the taint of a standard, tainted
> atmosphere to be carbondioxide? Remember, a standard atmosphere by
> definition has enough oxygen for a human to survive breathing it and
> a taint can, again by definition, be eliminated by the use of a filter
> mask. So
> 
> 1)      would high CO2 levels interfere with breathing if there were enough
>         oxygen too? If, for example, you had the standard percentage of
>         oxygen, but more CO2 and less nitrogen?

Yes it would. Since CO2 is a byproduct of our own respiration the human body
has specific regulation and feedback systems based on CO2 levels. Too high or
too low and we can ahve problems. (Too high, you end up with acidosis, and
your breathing rate goes up dramatically as the body tries to rid itself of
the excess. Too little, and you can 'forget' to breathe, as CO2 level is one
of the triggering mechanisms of the breathing reflex. Fortunately, the latter
is usally self correcting, since we're _making_ CO2 all the time, you just
tend to pass out.)
 
> 2)      can CO2 be filtered out by a simple filter mask?

Yes. They use CO2 absorption cartridges on submarines and space stations now. 

The big problem with a high CO2 level in the atmosphere, of course, is the
greenhouse effect. A planet with a naturally occuring high level of CO2 will
be very hot indeed.
 
> Second question: Is it possible for an otherwise standard oxy-nitrogen
> atmosphere to have a naturally occurring carbonmonoxide taint? I'm
> thinking about Sacnoth which has a high enough CO content to kill the
> average unprotected man in about 7 days. how big a taint would that be?
> Could it be the result of natural processes? Could it be the result of
> industrial pollution?

Possible...but we're trading close to other problems, CO is flammable above
12.5% in a standard atmosphere. Of course toxicity limits are reached long
before that. Not having any toxicology books handy, I don't remember the
dangerous ranges, but it'll be much lower.

But, happily, looking up CO in my handy merck's index says that RT catalysis
of 
2CO ->  CO2 + C occurs over a catalyst of mixed maganese and copper oxides, or
palladium on silica, so it's easy to deal with. You make a dual stage
respirator, stage one removes the CO, and stage 2, the CO2, and the carbon
probably clogs up both stages with time. TL-6, maybe even TL-5 stuff.

CO is produced in oxygen starved combustion (which is why people die of it
from running fires in closed rooms) however, it still requires oxygen, which
means a biological source is unlikely as it's hard to find a niche with just
enough oxygen to support partial oxidation of carbohydrates or hydrocabons to
CO, and still have enough O2 to support human life, AND enough area to support
generation of enough CO to alter the atmosphere. 

Hmmm...on second thought...

You _could_ do it, if you had something that inhibited the solution of oxygen
in the oceans. However that means that there'd be huge volumes of _anaerobic_
spce in the oceans, probably using either sulfur or methane metabolism. Our
hypothetical micro-organism then lives on the methane bubbling past it, in the
upper layers of the ocean turning methane into CO. Still you get a lot of
energy out of turning CH4 +2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O. Also your'e likely to have a
real mess of odd compounds in the oceans as a result of this metabolic cycle.
Making Sacnoth as strange place to live.

That and all the methane in the air...which, as a greenhouse gas, leads to the
ol' global warming thing.

Volcanic sources are equally unlikely, since, not so oddly enough, such
sources easily support the temperature catalyzed decomposition of CO to carbon
and CO2. (all you need is 400-700 C. Above 800, the reaction favors CO
formation, but it'll pass over lots of (relatively) cooler surfaces on it's
way out to the atmosphere so it'll change back.)

That leaves industrial, which is extremely likely, since thats the souce of
most CO in urban areas here on earth anyway.

If Sacnoth is polluted enough to have CO levels that'll kill an unprotected
human in 7 days...the _rest_ of the so-called atmosphere will make Mexico
City's look like a fresh alpine meadow, and would likely kill you faster than
the CO would.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:13:08 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:46:07 -0500, Charles R Hensley wrote:

> The requirements:
>   1) Line of thrust goes through the center of mass (close approx.) both
> loaded and empty
>   2) Best streamlining in the line of thrust
>   3) footprint large enough for stability in wilderness landings (saturn
> rockets and ttail landing of a standard scout are NOT stable for
> wilderness landings)

3b) While not mandatory, such a vessel should be able to land in a body of
    water and remain "upright"

>   4) ease of cargo access for both standard cargo modules (for this use
> 5dT modules 3m w x 3m h x 7.5m l) and any cargo at TL0




James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:19:40 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Deckplans

>Perhaps my 70-meter needle with it's three two-meter landing legs is
>using less efficient space than your 70-meter needle sitting upright with
>the much longer landing legs it would require. But you will _never_
>make a needle sit upright as stable as a needle will lie down, not unless
>your landing legs are posting out 30+meters in every direction.

If you need a needle lying down then design one with perpendicular decks
lying down. But, frankly, a needle standing up can be made as stable as you
want. The landing legs don't have to be longer than any other design. If
your point is that you could make one with a lower centre of gravity, you
can make one with a lower centre of gravity than you prone needle too. Does
that make your design unacceptable?

How about the design I posted earlier of a ship with perpendicular thrust
and one deck? It was flat as a pancake; that one deck could even be lowered
right into the ground! Is this design acceptable?

>And now you're sticking up 50 more meters or so than I am.
>The berm around my landing pad protected my ship when something
>dangerous happened, your ship got knocked over.

If you believe this is a convincing arguement, how about this:

Design a ship with a *parallel* deck orientation sticking 50+ m above the
berm and one with a perpendicular orientation below the berm. Now this
mysterious whatever topples your ship instead.

Does this convince you that perpendicular orientations are therefore far
superior? No? Then why do you expect it to convince me?

>Elevators are more efficient in some roles, they would be a silly waste
>of time in a scout ship - especially considering the access ladder
>you'd have to put beside it for the eventuality of it becoming stuck.

Then don't put one in. You seem to be assuming that a perpendicular deck
orientation *requires* a ship to be tall and narrow. It does not; every
shape of every configuration possible to one deck orientation is possible
for the other. The problem with parallel deck orientation is in the
direction of applied thrust, not the shape.

>IMO, you should see airplane deck configurations on any ship
>designed to land on a planet - ships designed to use class B or
>lower starports, or subsidiary starports.

IMO airplane deck configurations are good for airplanes, not spaceships.
The design constraints of the two are very different. Designing a spaceship
like an airplane is as sensible as designing one like an automobile.

>Bigger starships must need
>a reason for not using a skyscraper design. A few possibilities:
>
>Spinal mount access: The entire ship is built with access and
>maintenance of the spinal mount in mind. Long rooms parallell each
>section of the spinal mount, and it was found to be less complex to
>have one gravity field orientation (paralell to the spinal mount).

Put the spinal mount parallel to the deck in a ship with decks
perpendicular to the thrust.

>Cargo bay: a major cargo bay is part of the ship's design, taking up
>a significant portion of the ship's length. Access during flight under
>normal gravity conditions (such as care of live cargo) is a desired
>capability, it is more convenient for the room to be longer instead of
>taller.

Make the cargo take up a significant portion of the ship's length,
accessable during flight under normal gravity conditions, longer than it is
taller, in a ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust.

>Other ships may have been designed with airplane configs simply
>because it fit the aesthetics of the designer. Inertia is nullified,
>an artificial gravity orientation of your choice is imposed on the ship,
>these will cost and drain power no matter how your ship is arranged...
>why not make a ship so the passengers can go up to the dorsal
>observation lounge and look back over the finely sculpted radiators
>to stern?

Make a ship where .... whatever.... with decks perpendicular to the thrust.

Every configuration is possible in a ship with decks perpendicular to the
thrust.

Every shape is possible in a ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust.

The advantage with decks parallel to thrust is not their shape.

>It's science fiction. Inertia is damped, artificial gravity works. These
>two items make most of the physics you're using much less relevant
>to the art of starship design. If you don't like it, fine - IYTU.

In the official Traveller universe there is a limit to the amount of
inertial compensation possible at each tech level, and more compensation
costs more money. A ship with decks parallel to thrust has to have enough
compensation to counteract the total thrust of the main drive, plus have
enough left over to provide internal gravity. Ships with decks
perpendicular to thrust don't.

This means that, according to the rules, ships with perpendicular decks
provide more compensation for less money. I think this is relevant to the
art of starship design.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:18:48 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:08:03 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Oh yeah, for the folks worried about landing legs on soft ground
> causing a ship to topple? I suggest re-reading the description of
> starport types. Why do you suppose that type E is described as
> "essentially a marked spot of BEDROCK"? Maybe to avoid exactly that
> problem? 

And the Chevy Corvette was engineered to drive on asphalt or concrete only,
yet this hasn't stopped people from driving them on gravel or even dirt
roads.

Leonard, are you saying that ships in your TU *never* land away from a
starport? ;)





James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:28:32 +0000
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

James Lindsay wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:46:07 -0500, Charles R Hensley wrote:
>
> > The requirements:
> >   1) Line of thrust goes through the center of mass (close approx.) both
> > loaded and empty
> >   2) Best streamlining in the line of thrust
> >   3) footprint large enough for stability in wilderness landings (saturn
> > rockets and ttail landing of a standard scout are NOT stable for
> > wilderness landings)
>
> 3b) While not mandatory, such a vessel should be able to land in a body of
>     water and remain "upright"
>
> >   4) ease of cargo access for both standard cargo modules (for this use
> > 5dT modules 3m w x 3m h x 7.5m l) and any cargo at TL0

Hmmm... are we allowed to bore a 10 meter hole in the ground when landing?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats

I just scanned all the deckplans from T&G for my personal use. Does anyone
know if Marc has approved posting of such things on the web? I'll share
the scans as long as it is not a violation of Marc's wishes.

Ben

- --
Brannon (Ben) Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:34:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures

I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?

Anyone ever see reference to how this is 'supposed' to be?

Ben

- --
Brannon (Ben) Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:22:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

At 01:20 PM 8/31/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I still have one problem - IMTU, the year is 1105 and the 5th FW still
>waiting for 2 years ... I don't know if to prevent this or how ...

With proper prep, the 5FW can be an excellent role-playing situation.  The
problem the first time around was that it was sort of sprung on us by
surprise.

IMTU, it's late 1106, and the characters are on the Njosnadeild's hot-list
for spoiling the Sword World's pirate offensive.  Right now, they are
caught up trying to figure out an unusual smuggling operation, and who's
been buying up all the lanthanum stockpiles in Lunion.  (Hint: Geimdeild
sambandshersins has a very large asteroid fitted with big engines...)

If at all possible, I'm going to have the characters on Adabicci/Lunion
when the war breaks out.  Adabicci, you see, was a member of the
Sverdaheimssambandid until it was captured during the 3FW.  The locals
still are heavily pro-SW, and will take the arrival of the Confederation as
a sign to rise up and overthrow their Imperial masters...  I'm really
looking forward to being able to reintroduce Sjolidsforingi Ivar Gordon,
who the characters have crossed before.  ("It can't be him!  He's dead!")

hehehehehehehe...

Notes:

Njosnadeild: Special Intelligence Section
Geimdeild sambandshersins: Federation Army in Space
Sverdaheimssambandid: Sword Worlds Federation (GHSB)
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:29:44 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser

At 09:37 AM 8/31/98 -0700, you wrote:
>A mercenary group has approached the consulting firm of 'Strebe,
>AckerBacken & Imai' to facilitate the procurment of a 800 ton vessel
>meeting the following spec's.

William O. Darby, Colonel Rogers class Mercenary Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by Douglas E. Berry					

Statistics
Tons: 800std (SL Sphere Hypersonic)
Mass (L/C): 19771t/18900t
Dimensions: 27.8m diameter
Volume: 11200m3
Crew: 22/33
Cargo: 50std (0/10)
Cost: 926.063 MCr
Maintenance Points: 468
Tech Level: 12
Size: 8
	
Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3xFibComp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5). Bridge.	
Communications: 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (8, 0.03MW). 		
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (50,000km, 0.03MW). 1xArea. Jammer (11, 156.25MW).
1xDecp. Jammer (11, 0.31MW). 1xPas. Jammer (15, 1.25MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 1150MW, -0.5 at 137MW), Act:0, Neu:-1,
Grav:1				
					
Performance	
2     Jump (80std/pc fuel)
1.9/2 Maneuver (Thruster:952MW)
0.6/0.6	Contra-grav (190MW)
3351kph/3498kph	Atmosphere (Crus:2513kph/2624kph)
3     Power (/Fus:1373MW,1yr )
Battery (1.81/114.2/96)
Fuel (/Scoop:1 /Purif:24,4MW)
0/34/0/0/0  Accomodations
Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
2     G-Comp 
2     Sandcasters (AV:39 /Cans:30)
80 [477] Armor, 14 Structure

Weapons
2x 59Mj Laser Turret (+4) 1/2-0-0-0 [2,100/19-10-5-2] (LR)
4x Missile Turret Auto 1/1 (Mag:21 MFD:50,000km)
   w/22 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU

Features
8xAirlock
1xDocking Umbilical 
1xShip's locker (0.4std ea.)
1xArmory (1.07std ea.)
2xFull Galley (Cap:35)
1xCap Lnchr (30 rdy cap ea.)

Small Craft
2xDockRing (50std)
		
Crew Details
4xMnvr. 12xEngr. 2xMain. 6xGunn. 2xScrn. 2xFlgt. 4xCmnd. 1xStew.

The Darby is designed to act as a prime mover for small independent
infantry units.  Built inside a 27m sphere, the Darby provide adequate
transportation and support for these irregular forces.

The Darby has Jump-2 and thrusters rated for 2G acceleration.  When fully
loaded, acceleration drops to 1.9G.  The hull is heavily armored against
most light weapons, but should not be exposed to naval gunfire.

Ship's armament consists of four 59Mj laser turrets grouped into two firing
batteries.  These weapons can be adjusted for effective ground support.
Also, four single missile turrets can be used in either the anti-ship or
ground support role.  

Darbys are well equipped with ECM, having a wide variety of jammers along
with a stealthed hull coating.  Sensors are a standard package.

Interface is handled by the two modular cutters berthed in docking rings.
Space limitations allows only a single spare module to be carried, and
module switch out must be carried out outside the ship.  Standard modules
include troop transport, fire support, fuel skimming, and cargo transport.
Troops may also be inserted from the 30-man drop capsule facility.

Unlike the older Broadsword, the Darby is fully streamlined, and can be
landed on any planetary body.  On-board CG drives provide 0.6G
acceleration, so care must be taken when operating around heavy-g worlds.

The Colonel Rogers class is another fine product of Gridlore Technologies..
Gridlore, *our* products aren't designed by drugged up children.

Design Notes:

This one was a quicky.  It's a basic home for thirty troops and their
keepers.  One nice thing was being able to armor it as heavily as I did,
and being able to add the drop room greatly expands the flexibility of the
craft.

If you pull the drop room out, you get an extra 16 tons, 10 of which added
to the cargo bay will allow an extra cutter module to be carried.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #791
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, September 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 792



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Psionic societies
re: Starship deck orientation
re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures
re: Cargo Handling Procedures
Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
re: deckplans
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures
Re: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
Re: Cargo Handling Procedures 
Re: Expanding starship software 
Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)
Re: Deckplans
re: Deckplans
Re: Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:56:13 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

Regarding the impossibility of non-psionic officers on Zho ships, there is the
existence of prole officers elevated through OCS, as David Smart points out,
but there's also ample opportunity for non-psionic nobles and intendants.
They all receive _training_, but they aren't guaranteed to obtain a 'talent',
at least under the CT rules.  IIUC, it's entirely possible to be elevated to
the intendant 'caste' for high psi-strength but still not be able to _do_
anything with it.

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 11:09:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Starship deck orientation

  Actually Mr. Hough is quite right except where he asserts that no
game does this properly. However there was a highly realistic game
which did indeed elaborately map out ships with decks perpendicular
to the axis of thrust...

>Airplane-style spacecraft deck plans are comic-book physics which add
...
>And it would be easy to fix it; you could leave all starship designs
>unchanged, just fix up the drawings and move the engines in the deck plans
>a little. But nobody does this.

        ...Star Frontiers :>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:20:38 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: re: Starship deck orientation

>  Actually Mr. Hough is quite right except where he asserts that no
>game does this properly. However there was a highly realistic game
>which did indeed elaborately map out ships with decks perpendicular
>to the axis of thrust...
>
>>Airplane-style spacecraft deck plans are comic-book physics which add
>...
>>And it would be easy to fix it; you could leave all starship designs
>>unchanged, just fix up the drawings and move the engines in the deck plans
>>a little. But nobody does this.
>
>        ...Star Frontiers :>

And Jovian Chronicles :^>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:37:56 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures

>I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
>cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
>by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
>there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
>shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?


I've always seen it as a ship's locker/stowage area for personal gear, not a
cargo bay per se.  (Original rules specified that each High Passage gets 1
ton of cargo space.)  Oh, and the 'small package' trade...

Neither would use cargo modules, so it shouldn't be a problem.

I have used the 'attic' area for some interesting encounters.  I've had
everything from clothes lines to artwork and in the case of one particularly
twisted scout, a pistol range...

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:11:43 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Cargo Handling Procedures

Brannon Boren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?

Anyone ever see reference to how this is 'supposed' to be?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I always took it to mean that the size of the personnel hatch was the
max size for cargo packages. That 3 ton cargo bay is probably full
of survival suits, rations, man-portable equipment and such - it's
designed to support the needs of four to eight Scouts out in the
wilderness, not to carry formal cargo. The designer probably saw no
need to access the entire cargo bay at once, like with a cargo hatch.

Note the Seeker variant of the type S scout, it has cargo hatches
on the dorsal surface - the Seeker is designed to carry some cargo,
so needed the access.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:27:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities

>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Re: Zhodani psionic research and limits to capabilities
...
>One possibility is that the Zhodani have - for whatever reason - some
>prejudice against machine-aided psi, and machine-only psi like mechanical
>psi shields; their reseearch in these areas might progress more slowly than
>one would epxect due to a prejudice in favour of "pure" mind-only psi power.
>(It's cliched and irrational, but could be offered upa s a way to have
>Imperial PSI sresearch be at least vaguely competetive with Zhodani.)

  It's certainly possible (although you mention some valid drawbacks) but
it leaves the implication that either there are effectively no improvements
possible in psionics without external augmentation or that the Zhodani have
already discovered most if not all of those possible under that restriction.

  This assumes that the number of researchers (casual or institutional) and
the resources spent bear any relation to the results achieved - if not then
then the model used for psi-research needs some exploration.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:18:18 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: deckplans

Richard Hough,

I think the idea posted to the list was a good one. If you are certain
that all sub-1000 ton ships should be built with decks perpendicular
to thrust, and are sure that they can be designed with more
accessibility, efficiency and stability than ships with decks paralell
to thrust, then it behooves you to present some designs.

Really, I'd like to see some - there are maxims you keep presenting
that don't make a lot of sense to me, and I think I'd understand if
you drew a picture - even a sketch, if you didn't have time for
full deckplan design.

I'll accept that you can make a flying pyramid, call it streamlined
and stable on landing, and even have all the cargo in the base of
the pyramid. Is this what you had in mind?


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:24:59 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

At 13:56 01/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Regarding the impossibility of non-psionic officers on Zho ships, there is
the
>existence of prole officers elevated through OCS, as David Smart points out,
>but there's also ample opportunity for non-psionic nobles and intendants.
>They all receive _training_, but they aren't guaranteed to obtain a 'talent',
>at least under the CT rules.  IIUC, it's entirely possible to be elevated to
>the intendant 'caste' for high psi-strength but still not be able to _do_
>anything with it.
>
>-------------
>Kenji Schwarz


That is why these talentless nobles need to be very wary.  Next time
I roll up a Psionic character with special talent - the special talent
will be to tap these walking Psionic batteries.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:49:58 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats

The following is an email i received on the subject.  I haven't heard
anything different; has anyone else?  Hope this helps!

Matt McL

Subject: 
        Re: Deck Plans Rights
  Date: 
        Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:53:33 -0400
  From: 
        CardSharks@aol.com
    To: 
        mkm@umr.edu


If you use a deck plan (scanned from a book or whatever), you should
acknowledge the source of the plan, the copyright, and the trademark,
something like this:

Type S Scout originally appeared in Traders & Gunboats, GDW, 198X. Some
of
the materials on this page are copyright 198X-1996 Far Future
Enterprises.
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.

The purpose is to protect the property (so no one can later come back
and say
that FFE acknowledged it was in the public domain because we did not
pursue
those who didn't acknowledge the copyright, trademark, etc).

I would think that putting a deck plan in a web page comes under "Fair
Use."
As opposed to selling things, or copying rules verbatim and handing them
out
free.

Marc Miller




> Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
> 
> I just scanned all the deckplans from T&G for my personal use. Does anyone
> know if Marc has approved posting of such things on the web? I'll share
> the scans as long as it is not a violation of Marc's wishes.
> 
> Ben
> 
> - --
> Brannon (Ben) Boren
> http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:02:22 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures

IIRC, the 3T cargo area also has an exterior hatch access, making it
something of an airlock.  I always assumed it was meant for small stores
storage, not bulk.  The same with the 'attic'.  It's a lot like stores
load on a submarine;  drop the pallet topside then chain-gang the boxes
below. 

(Unless you're on a Trident boat, where they take out the escape trunk
and drop in pre-stocked cold boxes.  I always assumed larger spaceship
stores loads were done like that.)

When something larger must be loaded, there's always the air raft bay.
Of course, for a mere 20kCr, I can customize that bay to your exact
specifications ;).

Matt McL
 
> I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
> cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
> by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
> there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
> shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?
> 
> Anyone ever see reference to how this is 'supposed' to be?
> 
> Ben
> 
> - --
> Brannon (Ben) Boren
> http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats

Thanks for the data.  I'll get those plans up this weekend when I do my
updates, and I'll post the URL then.

Ben

- --
Brannon (Ben) Boren
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Matt McLaughlin wrote:

> The following is an email i received on the subject.  I haven't heard
> anything different; has anyone else?  Hope this helps!
> 
> Matt McL
> 
> Subject: 
>         Re: Deck Plans Rights
>   Date: 
>         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:53:33 -0400
>   From: 
>         CardSharks@aol.com
>     To: 
>         mkm@umr.edu
> 
> 
> If you use a deck plan (scanned from a book or whatever), you should
> acknowledge the source of the plan, the copyright, and the trademark,
> something like this:
> 
> Type S Scout originally appeared in Traders & Gunboats, GDW, 198X. Some
> of
> the materials on this page are copyright 198X-1996 Far Future
> Enterprises.
> Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.
> 
> The purpose is to protect the property (so no one can later come back
> and say
> that FFE acknowledged it was in the public domain because we did not
> pursue
> those who didn't acknowledge the copyright, trademark, etc).
> 
> I would think that putting a deck plan in a web page comes under "Fair
> Use."
> As opposed to selling things, or copying rules verbatim and handing them
> out
> free.
> 
> Marc Miller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
> > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Brannon Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> > Subject: Deckplans from Traders and Gunboats
> > 
> > I just scanned all the deckplans from T&G for my personal use. Does anyone
> > know if Marc has approved posting of such things on the web? I'll share
> > the scans as long as it is not a violation of Marc's wishes.
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> > - --
> > Brannon (Ben) Boren
> > http://www.mog.net/brannonb/index.html
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:21:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Procedures 

> Brannon Boren wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
> cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
> by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
> there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
> shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?
> 
> Anyone ever see reference to how this is 'supposed' to be?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I always took it to mean that the size of the personnel hatch was the
> max size for cargo packages. That 3 ton cargo bay is probably full
> of survival suits, rations, man-portable equipment and such - it's
> designed to support the needs of four to eight Scouts out in the
> wilderness, not to carry formal cargo. The designer probably saw no
> need to access the entire cargo bay at once, like with a cargo hatch.

Scout boats are built to go in, check things out, & come back.  The 3 to 4 
tons of 'cargo' space they have would be used up in consumables like life 
support system recharges.  Especially since the Type S is notorious for having 
a really bad air recycler.  The rest of the stuff would be dedicated to 
mission-specific gear.  IMTU, I'd let enough spares be stashed there to handle 
a field maintanance, which would last 4 to 10 months (1D6+3).
 
> Note the Seeker variant of the type S scout, it has cargo hatches
> on the dorsal surface - the Seeker is designed to carry some cargo,
> so needed the access.

I noticed that.  Course, if the people who did the conversion rilly screwed 
the pooch, there's some severe chances the doors will come off at the worst 
possible time.  <grin>

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:36:06 -0500
From: "Mark Logue" <mark.logue@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software 

>>One of the things I like least about Traveller starships is that there is no
>>avenue for upgrading anything but the weapons in the turrets.  I disagree with
>>it, and have been trying to generate rules for it for a couple of years
now.

>I see your point, but doesn't software in Traveller already do this? After
>all, there is Gunner-1, -2, and so on. The problem is not that computer
>software isn't upgradeable, it's that it has been ignored in most design
>systems.

AHL has a history of several retrofits and upgrades.  It IS canon and I
certainly allow it IMTU.  My only requirement is that you don't take a
design from one system (Book 5 - High Gaurd) and upgrade it with features
from another system (FF&S2).

>>> Let me get this straight; you are installing weapons specifically designed
>>> to *kill the ship's occupants*? ...
>>>
>>I think it makes a lot of sense to have these capabilities in the cargo and
>>'tween deck areas.  For some ships, accesses to critical portions of the ship
>>(outside the hatches to engineering and the bridge, for example) may also be
>>covered.  I don't forsee indiscriminate usage.
>>
>I think these capabilities are dangerous and useless...
>

IIRC, lethal Anti-Hijack systems were mentioned in Traveller ships as far
back as "The Kinunir".  I think that was Adventure 1.  In that adventure, it
was not the lethal anti-hijack that was so unusual.  The limited-AI computer
that decided to kill everyone was the real attention getter.

>>With the Ship's Computer able to interface with all systems...
>>
>Even if the ship has High Automation, which most combat ships do
>not, subsystems can be isolated units not under external control.
>

Actually, that is the definition of High Automation.

>Even if the computer has total control of the entire ship this does
>not make it legal, moral, effective, or dramatic roleplaying for the
>ship to be designed specifically to kill the crew.
>
Well, I thought "The Kinunir" was great fun.  I've run it several times (on
different groups) and its always a crowd pleaser.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:43:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)

I know this topic has been done and redone, but I'd like to get some
opinions on the assumptions that make boarding parties possible IMTU.

1. Artificial Gravity. Artificial gravity is a field, approximately 3 meters
in height, projected from a grav plate while said grav plate has power.

Some grav plates have two settings, On (usually 1G) and Off. 
Transition from On to Off takes a second or so, transition from Off
to On can take tens of seconds, even a minute for older or worn
grav plates. Grav plates with only two settings are rather cheap,
but are uncommon. The practice of gradually matching ship gravity
to destination gravity over the one to two week voyage is too common
for such limited grav plates to be used on most starships, though
you may find them in use on orbital habitats that don't need to
vary gravity.

Most grav plates have a range of settings, to allow the aforementioned
gravity variation. These grav plates will have an Off setting and a range
of On settings, usually from .1G to 2G. It is possible to make
grav plates sensitive enough to produce less than one-tenth G, or
plates strong enough to provide more than 2G (though somewhere
around 5-8G seems to be a practical limit), but these specialized plates
will be rarer and more expensive.

The variable grav plates can transition from any On state to an Off
state in a second or less, though some very heavy (5G and up) plates
may take several seconds of progressively lower gravity drop to reach
an Off state. Transitioning between an Off state to an On state will
usually take a few tens of seconds per G or fraction thereof.
Changing from one On state to another will also take a few tens of
seconds per G of change.

Note that grav plates, in and of themselves, provide no protection from
acceleration due to outside forces - the gravity of a planet, or the
thrust of the vessel. These are taken care of by (respectively)
Contragrav and the related Intertial Compensators.

2. Contragrav

Contragrav is that miracle device that nullifies gravity. It is contragrav
that allows starships to float out of the sky like gliding birds,
skim gas giants, even (in smaller units) allows Air/Rafts to fly.
The field is relatively power-constant, not taking much more power to
nullify a 1G field than a 10G field. It can be moderated in several ways
as well - for example, a ship could allow some of a planet's gravity
to affect it, allowing the ship to orbit. 

Another way the contragrav field can be moderated is to introduce
a bias in the field, to provide propulsion. That, IMTU, is how an
Air/Raft works. As contragrav fields get larger, though, the amount
of propulsion available from field bias drops. A grav speeder can
fly hypersonically; a starship can barely move itself
with contragrav - in moderate winds, even simple station-keeping
will be difficult. Contragrav can make a starship float, but actual
movement will be done with maneuver thrusters, or the main drive.

Furthermore, the propulsion available through field bias drops
away drastically when you get away from a gravity well.
A speeder that flies hypersonic at sea level will barely move
in orbit - there's less gravity for the bias to push against.

3. Inertial Compensators

Inertial compensators: Based on technology similar to Contragrav,
the inertial compensator acts to eliminate the effects of acceleration
within the field. While contragrav interacts with a gravity field, 
inertial compensators create a field of their own within which
(as long as the field holds) the effects of thrust, maneuver and
even impacts are eliminated. Not countered with an opposing
force (at least not in a readily observable way) - eliminated.

Inertial compensators, once available, quickly become a
standard part of hull construction for all starships and
spaceships. In most civilian designs, they are always on
whenever the ship is in flight - it may take a major
engineering effort to shut the compensators down.
Some military designs are built with adjustable inertial compensators,
but this is the exception (for extremely power-tight ship designs),
rather than the rule.

For the most part, if the drives are functioning you will have
inertial compensators. No matter how the starship spins,
thrusts, or brakes, you would be unable to tell from inside
the ship that it was doing anything other than sitting still,
unless you looked out a window.

If you can turn inertial compensators off, they transition from
an On state to an Off state much like grav plates do, and
power up again in much the same fashion.

4. Life Support

Air. Pressure. Light. Heat. Sound.

Proper amounts of any of these are good, too much of any of
them can kill you, too little of most of them can kill you as well.

Air: Atmosphere mix is usually kept by a self-regulating system.
Sealed areas (those bounded by pressure-tight bulkheads)
could possibly have their mix affected, say with gas from a
security system or tinkering/sabotage with the air mix.
Not all ships have security gas, and such tinkering is dangerous
and can be complicated, if you want to affect only part
of the ship.

Intruders usually wear vac suits anyway.

Pressure: Ships are designed to be depressurized. Some areas
may be depressurized while other areas (across bulkheads) may
be left in pressure. Depressurization time is usually measured in
minutes or more, depending on the volume of the area. It may
be vented faster, if there are airlock doors that can be overridden
or cargo bay doors that can be blown. Such emergency
depressurization may make it hard to repressurize again.

Again, most intruders wear vac suits.

Light, heat and sound are usually easy to maintain, and easy
for a boarding party to protect themselves from. Nothing in
most ship's lockers will match the glare from a sun in space,
for example.

5. Effects these have on Boarding Parties:

No grav-pong. At best, you can make them float, or give them a
gentle roller-coaster ride (though sudden zero-G when a bunch of
people are charging down a corridor could be fun!).

Corridors can't be instantly turned into bottomless pits by turning
off the floor plates and turning on the 6G plate at the end of the
corridor. While you could put such a plate at corridor's end, it
would only effect 3 meters out or so - and would take a minute
or two to get up to strength.

You can't smash someone into a wall by applying 6G's of inertial
compensation while the ship isn't moving. In most ships,
you can't smash someone into a wall by turning off inertial
comp and gunning the engines - not if you want to be able
to turn inertial comp on again. Even in a military ship that
_can_ switch off the comp, you'll need to prep your crew
first...but if you're being boarded, your main drives are probably 
down anyway.

There are some bits of this that aren't exactly Canon, but I
like the feel they give to space combat. Minor damage on a
small ship can temporarily disable the drives, allowing a
determined crew of boarders to get across and do properly
cinematic things. <g>

Comments?

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:31:34 -0500
From: "Mark Logue" <mark.logue@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>

>How about the design I posted earlier of a ship with perpendicular thrust
>and one deck? It was flat as a pancake; that one deck could even be lowered
>right into the ground! Is this design acceptable?
>

Great!  I love it!  It'll make big fat happy targets for planetary defense
forces or ethically challenged civilians.  Lets see... High-Gaurd had
modifiers based on configuration but how do later versions handle this?  At
any rate; a large mostly-flat surface will not be stealthable so a detection
roll should be Easy/Simple or just plain Automatic.

Another problem with the flying pancake / horizontal landing is weather.
One thruster cell in the area and you are history.

>Put the spinal mount parallel to the deck in a ship with decks
>perpendicular to the thrust.
>

Even better!  Now this flying pancake can't shoot at me as it approaches.
Say farewell to all this... and hello to oblivion!

>Every configuration is possible in a ship with decks perpendicular to the
>thrust.
>Every shape is possible in a ship with decks perpendicular to the thrust.
>
Possible, yes.  Desireable, no.

>The advantage with decks parallel to thrust is not their shape.
>
Well, it may not be *the* advantage, but it is an advantage.  Follow this
for a moment:
Small cross section to oncoming sensors.
Small target to oncoming gunnery.
Ability to use stealth technology in the design.
Able to fire main gun at target while closing.
Refuelling with fuel scoops require hypersonic streamlining.


>In the official Traveller universe there is a limit to the amount of
>inertial compensation possible at each tech level, and more compensation
>costs more money. A ship with decks parallel to thrust has to have enough
>compensation to counteract the total thrust of the main drive, plus have
>enough left over to provide internal gravity. Ships with decks
>perpendicular to thrust don't.
>
Inertial Compensation increases 1g for each TL increase.  If it is that
important, you could always make up the difference with G-Tanks and preserve
your ability to fight and GG-refuel.

>This means that, according to the rules, ships with perpendicular decks
>provide more compensation for less money.
>
Cost is a function of volume.  IIRC, the volume of internal compensators
increase only with the volume of the protected craft.  Whether that craft is
protected from accelerations of 1g or 6g is not a consideration for volume.
Compensated g's are a function of the TL of the unit.

>I think this is relevant to the art of starship design.
>
Only if you are designing a ~1g craft  AND  only if it is under acceleration
all of the time  AND  only if you do not install any inertial compensation
at all.

Might not be a bad idea for early TL spacecraft.  They have to use spinning
hulls or constant accel for gravity anyway.  Of course, they are not very
survivable...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:00:28 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Deckplans

Richard Hough,

Whew. For every example I give of a ship that works better with
decks paralell to thrust, you say "just make it the same way,
with decks perpendicular to thrust".

I really need to see some sketches here. You want to take a needle
hull, put the engines in the middle instead of the tip? You want to
place a spinal mount perpendicular to thrust, instead of paralell?
You want to make a one-deck ship, "flat as a pancake", and call
it streamlined?

I'm sure any of the above could be done. They're sure to be interesting
designs when someone does them.

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)

Walter Smith writes:
> I know this topic has been done and redone, but I'd like to get some
> opinions on the assumptions that make boarding parties possible IMTU.
> 
> 1. Artificial Gravity. Artificial gravity is a field, approximately 3
> meters in height, projected from a grav plate while said grav plate has
> power. 

It probably makes more sense to say that artificial gravity is a field
_between_ two plates.

> Note that grav plates, in and of themselves, provide no protection from
> acceleration due to outside forces - the gravity of a planet, or the
> thrust of the vessel. These are taken care of by (respectively)
> Contragrav and the related Intertial Compensators.
There is no real distinction between these forces -- grav plates which create
artificial gravity are capable of compensating for perceived forces on the
occupants due to gravity or acceleration, provided they are aligned correctly. 
However, the speed at which these grav fields change alignment makes them of
marginal use for ships attempting to evade or otherwise change direction of
thrust quickly.
> 
> 3. Inertial Compensators
> 
> Inertial compensators: Based on technology similar to Contragrav,
> the inertial compensator acts to eliminate the effects of acceleration
> within the field.
It actually seems more consistent with artificial gravity; fundamentally, it
seems to be artificial gravity which is (a) capable of changing alignment
extremely quickly, and (b) only useful for transferring velocity changes from
the hull to the occupants.  This isn't necessarily an unreasonable option. 
Note that most likely it would actually negate the effects of gravity as well
as acceleration within the hull.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #792
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, September 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 793



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Expanding starship software 
Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: deckplans
Re: Deckplans
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Starship deck orientation
Rolling up a Zho (was Re: Psionic societies)
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Starship deck orientation
Another unresolved question
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Resource for military campaigns
Re: Resource for military campaigns
Re: Resource for military campaigns
1) Apology 2) Larger ship's 3) Ballon  4) Imperiallines 5) Way Back When...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:34:15 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Expanding starship software 

> >>One of the things I like least about Traveller starships is that there is no
> >>avenue for upgrading anything but the weapons in the turrets.  I disagree with
> >>it, and have been trying to generate rules for it for a couple of years now.
> 
> >I see your point, but doesn't software in Traveller already do this? After
> >all, there is Gunner-1, -2, and so on. The problem is not that computer
> >software isn't upgradeable, it's that it has been ignored in most design
> >systems.
> 
> AHL has a history of several retrofits and upgrades.  It IS canon and I
> certainly allow it IMTU.  My only requirement is that you don't take a
> design from one system (Book 5 - High Gaurd) and upgrade it with features
> from another system (FF&S2).

Here, here!!

IMNSFBHO, the 1 hardpoint per 100 tons rule makes *sense*.  After all, the 
ship's hull has to survive some very severe stresses, like re-entries, 
scooping gas giants, violent manuvering (IMTU, gravity compensators do *NOT*, 
repeat, *NOT* affect the hull, they're *bounded* by the hull).  The hull is 
subject to every force that intersects it.  A good portion of the hull *must* 
be used for structural integrity.  Otherwise, a ship would *crumple* at the 
first solid hit it took.  Again, IMNSFBHO, the sight of a ship's hull bristled 
with stuff (sensor arrays, weapons, clip-on pods and such) is ridiculous.

Likewise, I think the 1 bay weapon per 1000 tons ship makes sense.  FASA's 
Adventure Class Ships Vol 1 had a 500 ton ship that violated the rules in that 
it had a missile bay *AND* 5 hardpoints.  The bay weapon would require 
additional bracing, and addition of 10 more hardpoints would weaken the hull 
IMTU.  I allow(ed) 2 ton missile pods to be rolled out of a 200 ton Q-ship, 
but they only carried 3 packed racks, some commo gear to allow them to be 
triggered, and enough computer & sensor power to allow it to lock onto 
something.  They could only be linked in salvos up to 30 missiles, and 
required 1 ton of control space & a gunner for each salvo.  The players could 
roll out 1 pod per combat turn.  Linking a number of pods took 1 turn.  Firing 
them took 1 turn.  They could be retrieved after the battle at 1D6+6 turns per 
pod, reloaded in 2 turns per pod.  They took the stock missiles from Book 2.  
And they took up space, too: 3 tons per pod & 12 tons for the launcher & 
retrieval module.

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:52:33 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Proceadures

Brannon Boren wrote

>I was looking over the Scout plans in LBB 7, and I wondered how they get
>cargo into that thing. The only access to the 3 ton forward cargo area is
>by personnel hatch. The top "attic' area is even worse. I figure maybe
>there's a large exterior cargo hatch on the top bay even though it is not
>shown, allowing cargo to be put in by crane?
>
>Anyone ever see reference to how this is 'supposed' to be?

Those cargo bays were designed for food and consumables storage for long
duration missions and equipment bays for the extended sensor suite
installed on some active duty scouts.  Thus the cargo was to be hand
loaded

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:52:41 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Joe Pettit wrote

>James Lindsay wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:46:07 -0500, Charles R Hensley wrote:
>>
>> > The requirements:
>> >   1) Line of thrust goes through the center of mass (close approx.) both
>> > loaded and empty
>> >   2) Best streamlining in the line of thrust
>> >   3) footprint large enough for stability in wilderness landings (saturn
>> > rockets and ttail landing of a standard scout are NOT stable for
>> > wilderness landings)
>>
>> 3b) While not mandatory, such a vessel should be able to land in a body of
>>     water and remain "upright"

The standard scout is tail heavy and will almost stand on end in a water
landing

>>
>> >   4) ease of cargo access for both standard cargo modules (for this use
>> > 5dT modules 3m w x 3m h x 7.5m l) and any cargo at TL0
>
>Hmmm... are we allowed to bore a 10 meter hole in the ground when landing?

not on airport runrays, starport "tarmacks", or bedrock.  what you do to
the ground on wilderness landings is your business.

I had proposed this to get examples of the other side, so we can do
"scientific" and economic comparisons. I believe in some instances the
decks perpendicular to thrust will help in economic evaluations.

charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:54:27 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: deckplans

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:18:18 -0400, Walter Smith wrote:

> Richard Hough,
> 
> I think the idea posted to the list was a good one. If you are certain
> that all sub-1000 ton ships should be built with decks perpendicular
> to thrust, and are sure that they can be designed with more
> accessibility, efficiency and stability than ships with decks paralell
> to thrust, then it behooves you to present some designs.
> 
> Really, I'd like to see some - there are maxims you keep presenting
> that don't make a lot of sense to me, and I think I'd understand if
> you drew a picture - even a sketch, if you didn't have time for
> full deckplan design.
> 
> I'll accept that you can make a flying pyramid, call it streamlined
> and stable on landing, and even have all the cargo in the base of
> the pyramid. Is this what you had in mind?

I don't really think that is really necessary.  There seems to be two view
points here regarding parallel vs. perpendicular deckplans:

There are some of us (myself included) that think that it is perfectly
reasonable for smaller ships to utilize a parallel deck layout.  Accepting
the existence of these ship designs does not invalidate canon.  Nothing
changes, or needs to be changed, except for the fact that the *idea* be
accepted as "possible" or even "desirable" for certain ship missions (eg:
small traders and such).  A question was asked a while back to help provide
a reason for their existence, especially when compared to some of the
advantages of perpendicular layouts.  I think that this question has been
satisfactorily answered in many ways.

Then there are those of us (primarily Richard Hough in regards to this
thread) that refuse to accept their existence.  IHTU, Richard has more than
likely scrapped all deckplans that utilize the parallel deck layout.  This
would mean that many canonical ships cannot exist in Richard's campaign,
which is perfectly fine for him and others sharing his view.  Also, the
silhouettes of all the parallel decked ships that we have all come to grow
and love since the days of CT most likely do not exist in his campaign.  I
make this loose-- and admittedly unfounded-- assumption due to the fact
that, using Richard's own logic, it would make far more sense to redesign
most of these ships from scratch as low, squat vessels, instead of simply
standing them on end and moving their innards all about.

Neither POV is "wrong" on the TML, but I must point out that the latter
requires significantly more work to incorporate into a canonical Traveller
campaign.  This is one advantage that the "pro-parallelers" can claim: the
ships in their TU require f-a-r less work to "accept" as canon, compared to
the latter (the cry "Why bother, when things are fine as they are?" comes
to mind).

Following is my view on why the existence of the 400 DT subsidized merchant
(ie: Fat Trader) can and should exist in any Traveller campaign:

1) cargo doesn't load much easier than on this ship
2) the ship has an airframe (ie: wings), just like the shuttle (another
   famous parallel vessel design), allowing it to maneuver easier in an
   atmosphere
3) the vessel can still land with inoperable drives
4) the vessel is very stable while on the ground
5) leaving it "as is" does not invalidate canon IMTU

Now Richard (or another pro-perpendicular individual) can come up with an
entirely different ship layout that would hold true for all of the above
(except the last one), but it would *not* invalidate the existence of the
canonical Fat Trader.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:54:18 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:19:40 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:

> >Perhaps my 70-meter needle with it's three two-meter landing legs is
> >using less efficient space than your 70-meter needle sitting upright with
> >the much longer landing legs it would require. But you will _never_
> >make a needle sit upright as stable as a needle will lie down, not unless
> >your landing legs are posting out 30+meters in every direction.
> 
> If you need a needle lying down then design one with perpendicular decks
> lying down. But, frankly, a needle standing up can be made as stable as you
> want. The landing legs don't have to be longer than any other design. If
> your point is that you could make one with a lower centre of gravity, you
> can make one with a lower centre of gravity than you prone needle too. Does
> that make your design unacceptable?

The only way that you could design an upright needle configuration to have
a lower center of gravity than one of a horizontal configuration, is if the
architect designing the former got an "A+" in engineering *AND* the other
architect got an "F"!

> How about the design I posted earlier of a ship with perpendicular thrust
> and one deck? It was flat as a pancake; that one deck could even be lowered
> right into the ground! Is this design acceptable?

Not very aerodynamic, not even in old comedies.  How would such a ship
maneuver in an atmosphere or skim fuel from a gas giant?

> >IMO, you should see airplane deck configurations on any ship
> >designed to land on a planet - ships designed to use class B or
> >lower starports, or subsidiary starports.
> 
> IMO airplane deck configurations are good for airplanes, not spaceships.
> The design constraints of the two are very different. Designing a spaceship
> like an airplane is as sensible as designing one like an automobile.

The shuttle is designed like an airplane...

> >Bigger starships must need
> >a reason for not using a skyscraper design. A few possibilities:
> >
> >Spinal mount access: The entire ship is built with access and
> >maintenance of the spinal mount in mind. Long rooms parallell each
> >section of the spinal mount, and it was found to be less complex to
> >have one gravity field orientation (paralell to the spinal mount).
> 
> Put the spinal mount parallel to the deck in a ship with decks
> perpendicular to the thrust.

This is illegal, according to FF&S.  A spinal mount can only be mounted in
line with the axis of thrust (ie: spine).





James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:01:05 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:41:30 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>First question: Is it possible for the taint of a standard, tainted
>atmosphere to be carbondioxide?

On a geochemical level, would say its not clear.  There is
no hard and fast process that makes this impossible. However,
oxygen is produced from carbon dioxide.  If you have plants
doing this, one might guess they would keep pulling down the
CO2 levels, rather than leaving them at some high level.
However, we only have one example of the process (the Earth)
so it is hard to say.

>1)	would high CO2 levels interfere with breathing if there were enough
>	oxygen too? If, for example, you had the standard percentage of
>	oxygen, but more CO2 and less nitrogen?

Acording to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for CO2
the PEL (permissible exposure limit, how much OSHA (the
Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the US)
lets you be exposed to for 8 hours) is 5000 ppm.

>2)	can CO2 be filtered out by a simple filter mask?

Yes.

>Second question: Is it possible for an otherwise standard oxy-nitrogen
>atmosphere to have a naturally occurring carbonmonoxide taint? I'm
>thinking about Sacnoth which has a high enough CO content to kill the
>average unprotected man in about 7 days. how big a taint would that be?
>Could it be the result of natural processes? Could it be the result of
>industrial pollution?

I don't remember how much industry Sacnoth has.  But people who
pointed out that CO reacts with O2 are right.  The process,
however, is slow.  The main result is that you could have
CO in an O2 atmosphere if there was some continous source
of it.  The only natural process I know of is out gassing
from volcanoes.  To get decent amounts the planetary
mantle would need to be more reducing than the Earth's  is
now (we see volcanoes outgas CO2 and N2 today).  From its
material safety data sheet, it's PEL is 50 ppm (OSHA).
The TLV is 25 ppm.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:19:35 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

>You _could_ do it, if you had something that inhibited the solution of oxygen
>in the oceans. However that means that there'd be huge volumes of _anaerobic_
>spce in the oceans, probably using either sulfur or methane metabolism. Our
>hypothetical micro-organism then lives on the methane bubbling past it, in the
>upper layers of the ocean turning methane into CO. Still you get a lot of
>energy out of turning CH4 +2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O. Also your'e likely to have a
>real mess of odd compounds in the oceans as a result of this metabolic cycle.
>Making Sacnoth as strange place to live.

Anoxic oceans were thought to have occured on the Earth.  The
early ocean was rich in disolved ferrous iron (Fe+2) from
hydrothermal systems.  As Oxygen levels started to rise,
it took some time to oxidize the oceans.  However, with
that big a sink for oxygen, I don't know how hard it would
be to get atmospheric oxygen up to breathable levels.

Similarly, today some bodies of water can be anoxic at
depth if the rate that organic matter (which consumes
oxygen as it rots) is being introduced exceeds the rate
of oxygen introduction.

I don't know enough biochemistry to know if bacteria would
be likely to make CO under these conditions.  My guess is
rather than make CO, they would go ahead and make CO2 anyway.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:36:22 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

At 04:52 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>> 3b) While not mandatory, such a vessel should be able to land in a
>body of
>>>     water and remain "upright"
>
>The standard scout is tail heavy and will almost stand on end in a water
>landing

But the big question, regarding water landings, is would they float or
sink.  The weight of the ships seems to be more than the water they would
displace.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:45:33 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Rolling up a Zho (was Re: Psionic societies)

At 13:56 01/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Regarding the impossibility of non-psionic officers on Zho ships, there is
the
>existence of prole officers elevated through OCS, as David Smart points
out,
>but there's also ample opportunity for non-psionic nobles and intendants.
>They all receive _training_, but they aren't guaranteed to obtain a
'talent',
>at least under the CT rules.  IIUC, it's entirely possible to be elevated
to
>the intendant 'caste' for high psi-strength but still not be able to _do_
>anything with it.
>
>-------------
>Kenji Schwarz

In theory, yes. In character generation reality, not really. Any
Intendent/Noble can roll on the "Talent" skill table any time they earn a
skill roll, making it virtually impossible for any character to *not*
have a Psionic skill if they really want one. And, let's face it, if
someone is rolling up a Zho, they'd want at least one psi skill, won't
they?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:28:40 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

> Regarding the impossibility of non-psionic officers on Zho ships, there is the
> existence of prole officers elevated through OCS, as David Smart points out,
> but there's also ample opportunity for non-psionic nobles and intendants.
> They all receive _training_, but they aren't guaranteed to obtain a 'talent',
> at least under the CT rules.  IIUC, it's entirely possible to be elevated to
> the intendant 'caste' for high psi-strength but still not be able to _do_
> anything with it.

Ah, but the genetic codes for psionics are there...  You have got to
remember that the Zho want all of their nobles to be psionic...  So an
intendant to have a high psi-strength means that the children of that
person may have a better chance for psionic powers...

> Kenji Schwarz

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:58:08 +0000
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> At 04:52 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >>> 3b) While not mandatory, such a vessel should be able to land in a
> >body of
> >>>     water and remain "upright"
> >
> >The standard scout is tail heavy and will almost stand on end in a water
> >landing
>
> But the big question, regarding water landings, is would they float or
> sink.  The weight of the ships seems to be more than the water they would
> displace.

Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL.  Seawater is a bit more boyant. A scount
weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.  Thus half its volume would be
beneath the water.  Since it is back heavy, that end would sink lower.
Without more information as to the center of gravity on a Scout, I couldn't
say more.  But the Megatraveller Referee's Companion has a picture of an
immersed scout.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:19:01 EDT
From: Kenjomatic@aol.com
Subject: Another unresolved question

Well, I'm off to the People's Pseudo-Intellectual Humanist Education Combine
#1 (Eastern Directorate) and must sign off TML/TLDL once again.  I'll tune
back in when I get a chance.  It's been grand and civilized.  Although I still
can't see why you people just can't seem to understand that the Vilani would
kick the Americans' butts into the next galaxy without breaking a sweat.  It's
pretty obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a second.

Puzzled,
and ducking,

Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:27:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

David P. Summers wrote:

> Similarly, today some bodies of water can be anoxic at
> depth if the rate that organic matter (which consumes
> oxygen as it rots) is being introduced exceeds the rate
> of oxygen introduction.
> 
> I don't know enough biochemistry to know if bacteria would
> be likely to make CO under these conditions.  My guess is
> rather than make CO, they would go ahead and make CO2 anyway.
>

that's the rub...you can't make CO in an anoxic environment, only a
micro-aerobic one (one with considerably reduced O2 content, anoxic has
none) The problem is finding an environment big enough to do that _and_
keep it that wayin the face of an atmosphere that has enough O2 for
humans...

Maybe everyone on Sacnoth cooks on charcoal hibachis, and has their
poorly maintained furnaces running full blast all the time.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:34:04 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Boarding Party Assumptions IMTU (longish)

At 05:11 PM 9/1/98 -0400, Walter Smith wrote:
>4. Life Support
>
>Air. Pressure. Light. Heat. Sound.
>
>Proper amounts of any of these are good, too much of any of
>them can kill you, too little of most of them can kill you as well.

*snip*

>Pressure: Ships are designed to be depressurized. Some areas
>may be depressurized while other areas (across bulkheads) may
>be left in pressure. Depressurization time is usually measured in
>minutes or more, depending on the volume of the area. It may
>be vented faster, if there are airlock doors that can be overridden
>or cargo bay doors that can be blown. Such emergency
>depressurization may make it hard to repressurize again.
>
>Again, most intruders wear vac suits.

You assume that pressure changes go only one way when, as you note,
too much is just as bad.  In the TML PbeM run by Mark Cook and Mike
Metlay, one of the more ingenious and twisted players came up with
a good way to subject intruders to a truly massive amount of over-
pressure.

Our ship's a big one, see, and we had this pool on board... the
player did a much better job of explaining the principle at work,
but it's basically the same as with one of those toy rockets you 
fill with some water (reaction mass) and compressed air.  So when
we vented a large compartment full of water (several tons) and air 
at 15 psi into near vacuum...

Well, it didn't matter that they were wearing suits.

For the gory details, consult the game archives at
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/
(specifically, Turn 2 of 1993, Part 5)



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:38:12 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

At 06:42 am 9/1/98 PDT, you wrote:
>In response to your questions:
>
>1) Yes, More CO2 will affect you, on a metabolic level.  Not nicely 
>either.
>
>2) Yes, you can filter out CO2 easily, using a particular
crystalline 
>material (I forget the name).  The same system has been used in 
>spacecraft and submarines for decades.

	To be technical, it's not filtered but absorbed, by lithium
hydroxide. Big deal--to the user it's the same thing--he puts on a
mask with a doohickey that takes the bad stuff out, and has to
replace something in the mask every so often ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:10:38 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Resource for military campaigns

Recently ran across an ad in Soldier of Fortune (yes, I subscribe to SOF)
for Military Media Productions.  These folks sell cd-roms containing FM/TMs
of particular subjects.  Intrigued, I ordered the special ops disc.  

This is a find, everything you ever wanted to know about running a small,
elite team of commandos. (sound familar?)  Nice to have the latest
versions.. my copy of the Ranger Handbook is old and outdated, and I won't
even mention my Infantry Blue Book..

http://www.military-media.com


- --


+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:57:12 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Resource for military campaigns

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

[snip]

> http://www.military-media.com

Thanks for the link.

This one caught my eye in the Army Field manuals:

1) FM 8_50 PREVENTION AND MEDICAL MANAGEMENT OF LASER INJURIES, 08 AUGUST 1990

A must for every starship medic.

How do the manuals look?  Any graphics or just raw text?

Bloo

P.S.  How's At Close Quarters coming?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:55:06 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Resource for military campaigns

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> Recently ran across an ad in Soldier of Fortune (yes, I subscribe to SOF)

"Soldier of Fiction"?  ;-)

> for Military Media Productions.  These folks sell cd-roms containing FM/TMs
> of particular subjects.  Intrigued, I ordered the special ops disc.
> 
> This is a find, everything you ever wanted to know about running a small,
> elite team of commandos. (sound familar?)  Nice to have the latest
> versions.. my copy of the Ranger Handbook is old and outdated, and I won't
> even mention my Infantry Blue Book..
> 
> http://www.military-media.com
> 
A _free_ source of at least some current US Army manuals, training aids,
and other truly useful stuff can be found at the following Web site:

http://155.217.58.58/

(This is the Army Doctrine and Training Digital Library [ADTDL].)

Anybody can download items not marked with a padlock, graphics and all. 
Active and Reserve Component personnel can register to download
restricted ("padlocked") material.  Looking at the list, there's plenty
of unrestricted stuff for the taking.  It's mostly in Adobe Acrobat
(.pdf) format, but I imagine that most folks on the TML can find an
Acrobat reader (I'm pretty sure that one is offered at the Army site,
but not 100% sure.)

I don't know whether personnel from other branches of the US military
can gain the same privileges of unrestricted download.  *shrug*

If there are similar sites for other services (US and abroad), I'd like
to see them posted here (after all, while the manuals were not _written_
with the Traveller multiverse in mind, I think that referees and players
could find useful material in current doctrinal manuals).

> --
> 
> +-------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
> |    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
> +-------------------------------------+
> | "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
> |  of a bomb!"                        |
> |     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
> +-------------------------------------+

Ref your sig file:  Don't I _know_ it!  ;-)  [DAMN those baby ducks,
anyway!]

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:29:02 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Apology 2) Larger ship's 3) Ballon  4) Imperiallines 5) Way Back When...

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 21:50:35 -0500
> From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
> Subject: Re: 1) Extract from GURPSnet about Financial Matters
> On 08/30/98 at 06:57 PM,  "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> said:
> >>>>> begin quote<<<<
> Alvin, there was a reason I didn't post that article here.  Every
> one of my players is on the TML.  ;->

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

(Feels like a heel)

I'm really, really sorry, Eris!  It was a really good article,
but -- when it came to the campagin-specific info -- I
didn't think that anyone in your group would be here, except
you.  I'm really sorry - please forgive my clumsiness, and my
delay in responding (it always takes me time to get to
my email, on weekdays...)

I also apologize to his players on the list: I don't like
ruining other folk's Traveller adventures AT ALL: or
spoling surprises...

* * * * * * * * * *

Tidbit's from today's Globe and Mail:

The current cruise boom suggest's several interesting
things that can be transmuted to Traveller.

"The Cruise Bowl would be a 12,000-passenger floating casino and sports
complex five times the size of a football stadium and too large ever to go
in to any dock."


See http://www.globeandmail.com/docs/news/19980901/ColumnOne/ucolun.html
for details...

Now, I can see the use of big, jump-capable spacestations as very useful in
a
wealthy Imperium (an average tech level of 14-15, rather than the current
"middle-class" Imperium of TL 12 or a way poor Imperium of average TL of
8 or 9).  In the Offical Imperium, there might be room for maybe 5 - 10 of
these
monster's, carrying 100,000 passenger's complete with shopping centre's,
live animal's and weather pattern's.  Of course, they will only be found
on the Vland-Capital-Terra route...

Rip out the jump engines, and these things become a LOT more common.
All those high-pop asteroid belt's...they'll love these ships.  Especially
if
there are two or more high-population worlds in one system.

********************

Not on their website, the G&M had a story on a enormous research ballon,
I believe 350 x 250 meters, open at the top, that some scientist's were
playing with.  It slipped out of their control in Alberta, Canada, and
headed east.
A Canadian CF-18 squadron  at Quebec pumped ~1,000 rounds of ammo
into the ballon but it just kept right on floating by.  It was tracked by
American
and British vessel's across the Atlantic, and is now at some Norwegan
islands.

The skin of the ballon is very thin, if I remember the article correctly.

Quite interesting: it would make for a nice sensor array, at least until the
natives figure out a way to shoot it down.  Use it in a Napoleonic-style
campagin:
ir should be much cheaper than an air/raft...

*********************

Imperiallines is a minor - but Imperium-wide - freight line, which is
owned by the Imperial Family. It operates mainly as a typical transport line,
but also has some jump-6 transport's designed to look like the standard
jump-4 ship.

One thing the Referee might do it make it the semi-offical transport line for
Imperial Research Station's.  The vast majority of good's shipped
are mundane, if of admittedly high quality.  Certain items, however, are
interesting: not important enough to rate Naval ship's, but too sensitive
to be hauled by regular civilian's.  Interesting relic's, bizzare scientific
experiment's, obscure animal's with unexpected abilities, and puzzling
enigma's would be carefully cataloged, placed in the hold's, and monitored.
Ninety-five percent of the time, nothing irrevocable or truly disasterous
happen's.

**********************

Way Back Imperial Dates, from the Traveller Intergrated Timeline...
http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.html

(some event's snipped: The A.D. dates are mine, tracking from
 Anno Domini1969 = -2552 Imperial Era)

- -2559 IE / A.D. 1962  First Solomani space explorations from Terra (1827
                                Solomani Rim)
- -2552 IE / A.D. 1969  First Solomani landings on Luna, Terra's
- -2510 IE / A.D.  2011 Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's
                                established as a small mining base.
- -2460 IE / A.D.  2061 Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system.
- -2438 IE / A.D.  2083 GSbAG allegedly founded from consortium of
                                old Terran manufacturing firms on Terra
- -2433 IE / A.D. 2088  Luna, Terra's  moon, unifies as a nation in the
                                United Nations.
- -2422 IE / A.D. 2099   First Imperium contacted by American space mission
                                (UNSCA) at Barnard (1926 Solomani Rim).
- -2408 IE / A.D. 2113  First Interstellar War begins in Solomani Rim between
First
                                Imperium and UNSCA.

Just before the Terran's were contacted by the First Imperium,
they were divided by the standard American-East Asian-European
political groups, with the United Nations as a major force in it's own
right.

This need not, of course, be the case.  An alternative Earth at the time of
contact
will have serious reprocussion's.  Should your traveller's do a temporal
misjump, they could end up on a different timeline of a differently
flavoured
Imperium.  An Imperium unified under the banner of Islam is a very different
place, indeed.   Had the First Imperium met a unified, vigourous,
rationalistic,
racist Euro-American Empire, the end result would be very different than
meeting a world dominated by the stagnated, socialistic, half-Arab European
Union,  a vibrant Latin/Anglo hybrid culture dominating the America's,
and a fragmented, divisive Asian Block rapidly increasing (again!) in
wealth,
military might, and arrogance.

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #793
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, September 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 794



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser
Re: Additional wealth for PCs
Re: 1) Apology
Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?
Behind the times
SF Chemistry (was Re: Wipeout or I can land it)
Re : Carbon monoxide as atmospheric taint
BTRC temporarily offline
Filtering out CO2
BITS product release - latest Rob Prior Software
SSgt Arden Stilwell Merc Cruiser
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: William O Darby class mercernary cruiser
Re: Resource for military campaigns
Starship Insurance Costs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:40:08 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser

>A mercenary group has approached the consulting firm of 'Strebe,
>AckerBacken & Imai' to facilitate the procurment of a 800 ton vessel
>meeting the following spec's.

>TL12
>800 ton sphere
>min. jump-2
>pass cap 30(a light Infantry unit)
>small craft cap min. 2-50 ton cutters

Designs requested in T4 format
RFI to be submitted to SAI care of  strebe@intergate.bc.ca
_________________________________________________________________________

SSgt Arden Stillwell, SSgt Arden Stillwell class Light Assault Troopship 
(FF&S v2)	
Designed by Douglas Glatz	
	
Statistics	
 Tons: 800std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )
 Volume: 11200m3
 Mass (L/C): 17322t/15754t
 Dimensions: 27.8m diameter
 Size: 8
 Crew: 13/25
 Passengers High/Med: 0/0
 Passengers Low: 0
 Troops/Science: 30/0
 Frozen Watch: 0
 Cargo: 100std (0/40)
 Cost: 931.835 (987.835 w/cutters) MCr
 Maintenance Points: 415
 Tech Level: 12

Performance	
 2 Jump (80std/pc fuel /Ar:0 [20])
 1.3/1.4 Maneuver (/Thruster:560MW /Ar:0 [20])
 1.3/1.4 Contra-grav (381MW /Ar:0 [20])
 2538 kph/2773 kph Atmosphere (/Crus:1904kph/2080kph)
 3 Power (/Fus:1025MW,1yr  /Ar:0 [20])
 300 Battery (4.41/302.8/43.8 /Ar:0 [20])
 171 Fuel (/Scoop:1 /Purif:48,2MW /Ar:0 [20])
 0/27/3/25/2 Accomodations
 120 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Gd /'St /Ar:0 [20])
 2 G-Comp ( /Ar:0 [20])
 2 Sandcasters ( /AV:40 /Cans:30 /Ar:0 [10])
 40 Damper Screen (1MW /Ar:0 [10])
 40 Meson Screen (0.64MW /Ar:0 [10])
 70 [410] Armor, 18 Structure

Electronics	
 Controls (/Ar: 0 [20]): Dynamic, High automation. 3xFibComp (CM:0.4 
CP:2.5). Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160). Bridge (/Ar:20[60]).
 Communications (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser 
(1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 1xAEMS (8, 0.03MW). 
1xLIDAR (14.5 [500kkm], 0.6MW).
 Survey/Science (/Ar :0 [20]): 1xDensiometer (7.5 [16km]). 1xNeutrino (8.5 
[160km], 5MW).
 ECM (/Ar: 0  [20]): 1xRadio Jammer (500,000km, 0.33MW).
 Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:0 (-0.5 at 955MW, -0.5 at 103MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1, 
Grav:1

Weaponry
 2xLaser Turret (+0) 1/2-0-0-0 [2,100/15-7-4-2] (LR /Ar:40 [200])

 4xMissile Turret Auto 1/4 ( /Mag:15 /MFD:500,000km /Ar:0 [20])

Features					
 2xAirlock		
 1xDecontamination Airlock		
	 		 		
 1xSickbay (8std ea.)		
 1xShip's locker (0.4std ea.)		
 2xArmory (0.54std ea.)		 		
	 		 		
 1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:30)			
 2xCapsule Launcher (10 ready capsules ea.)
					
Small Craft					
 2xDockRing (50std)		
 2xModular Cutter (50 std) w/AFV module
 					
Backups	
 Communications: 1xRadio Rec. (50,000km). 1xRadio (50,000km). 				
					
Crew Details					
 3xMnvr. 1xElec. 5xEngr. 1xMain. 6xGunn. 3xScrn. 2xFlgt. 3xCmnd. 1xMed. 
				
_______________________________________________________

The SSgt Arden Stillwell class Assault Troopship is designed to transport 
and deliver 2 Platoons of Heavy Mechanized Infantry in a variety of 
battlefield environments.

With it's port and starboard capsule launchers, this class of starship can 
drop it's battlesuited complement of Heavy Infantry, while simultaneously 
delivering the attached AFV's via the two Modular Cutters.  All while 
acting as an orbital weapons platform, courtesy of it's two dual 60 Mj 
laser turrets and four missile launchers.

If a resupply mission is called for, the SSgt Arden Stillwell class is 
armored to withstand moderate amounts of ground fire, and it's four large 
cargo doors will allow quick access to it's spacious 100 std cargo area.

Finally, the SSgt Arden Stillwell provides it's troopers with the latest in 
Low Berth technology.  While the unit Cadre (1 officer, 4 NCOs) are 
planning out the assault to come, the common trooper will slumber in the 
latest InGen LowBerth.  The advantage to the unit is that the soldiers will 
not suffer from the shipboard malaise and hostilities that close confines 
inevitably bring out in combat soldiers.  The advantage to the soldier is 
that even thought he/she is in suspended animation, the enlistment clock is 
still ticking!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:49:23
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Additional wealth for PCs

>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>Subject: Additional wealth for PC's?
>
>I was checking out the archives for GURPSnet, and there was a discussion on
>how to give a starship to PC's without making them at least Very Wealthy
>(as in multi-million credit wealth).  Various solutions were offered, from
>not counting loan's as wealth to making the ship owned by a patron.
>

Both work.

>Fair enough: most PC groups are trader's, mercenaries or scout's, working
>on contract or as a business with the typical debt load, trying to make
>end's meet.
>However, it would be interesting to see campagins based on wealthy
>PC's: the problem being how the Referee control's the players, with a total
>wealth
>of say 300 MCr.

Wealth implies responsibilities. One of the things Gurps does well (being a
third generation RPG) is it handles social relationships. I'll get to this
later.

If you want to be irresponsible, you can be ... but if you want to be a
respected member of the nobility, then you have to act the part. And
occasionally, that could include doing things that are stupid, dangerous or
stupidly dangerous.

>
>For argument's sake,  let's divide the wealth up as...
> 200 MCr - in a family-run business, only present on one world with
>                   a population at the "mid-pop" level (millions - 100's of
>millions).
>                   This business currently has a light debt load of 30 MCr,
>and
>                   generate's a regular profit of 4 MCr per year on average.

I'd split these into 'Income Stream, MCr 30' and 'Debt Stream MCr 4'. Note
that in GURPs terms, if the corporation fails it's 'job roll' for the
MCr30, you still have to keep the bondholders coupons clipped.

>   50 MCr - in actual private wealth: land, government debt instrument's,
>                   stock's, precious metal's, etc.  Maybe 5 MCr is available
>for discrectionary spending, and of that, usually only 1 MCr
>is available for "active vacations".

How much work does it need to keep the MCr 50 in capital earning 10% ? How
stable is the government whose paper you hold ? Do the companies whose
stock you own expect you to sit on the Board (it Gurps terms, a couple of 2
point Duties)?

Personally, I'd also say the rate of return is too high. Imperial interest
rates seem to be about 2-3%, which means a rate of 4% is doing pretty well.

>   50 MCr - in a small yatch/courier starship, usually chartered out, used
>as a familly/corporate courier, or decked out to impress
>businessmen. However, for two month's of every year, it's available
>for use by the PC's for their "vacation".

But not always when you want it.

Heck, combine the two issues ("Well young Alva, I heard this story that
there might be some ahhh security issues related to labour problems on
Teiko. Take a couple of the disreputable rogues you call friends and take a
look see. You look pale. You should spend some more time in the sun ...
while you're there, you might get some hunting in ...").

>
>The Imperium is so large and wealthy that this level of money is not even
>noticed by High Society, even in a backwater like the Spinward Marches.  

Sort of. It depends what you do with it, really.

>Still, it's enough to support regular adventuring, and even afford a few
things
>like a mercenary platoon

Nope. Assume 50 troops, each paid KCr 20 a year. Thats a cold megacredit.
Then KCr 100 equipment each (and thats Combat Armour) is another MCr 5,
which probably takes KCr 250 a year to maintain. Then transport costs, at
(say) KCr 4 per jump in bunks.

>Note that wealth in the 100's of MCr is noticable on a world in the mid-pop
>level: these folk could be the richest folk on the planet, or number in at
>least the top 100. Their actions will be followed in such a small society,
even if
>only by rumour.  This is doubly true if they are Imperial nobles, even if
they are
>only knight's or a baronet.

In GURPs terms, this is Status, which costs XP and cash each month to
maintain. Status-5 aint cheap either way.

>
>Roleplaying wealth of the Billion's of credit's plus is not covered in my
>post,
>and would be difficult to roleplay: the PC's are too likely to disintergrate
>into hedonsm or become pure political/financial roleplaying (aka little or
>no action)
>at that level of wealth [1].  I don't have Pocket Empires, but I have heard
>of it:
>it may help out in playing such people.

PE is mostly about running world governments, which may be what you want.

>
>Anyway's Keeping Up Apperances can be a major drain of wealth for ambitious
>PC's, despite their wealth.  This is especially true if they aspire to
>upgrade their
>station in life, and play the political game well.

Yes.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 98 01:45:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

On 09/01/98 at 10:29 PM,  "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> said:

>> Alvin, there was a reason I didn't post that article here.  Every
>> one of my players is on the TML.  ;->

>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

>(Feels like a heel)

>I'm really, really sorry, Eris!  It was a really good article, but --
>when it came to the campagin-specific info -- I
>didn't think that anyone in your group would be here, except you. 
>I'm really sorry - please forgive my clumsiness, and my delay in
>responding (it always takes me time to get to my email, on
>weekdays...)

Hee! Apoligy accepted.  I'd have sprung it on 'em sooner or later. It just gives them time to fret. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:07:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?

I've just enjoyed a week in Malta soaking up the sun, but the flights at
the start and end of the journey set me thinking....

Just before we landed all lights in the cabin were dimmed or shut off, and
the same happen before take off on the way home, and landing back at
Manchester. I'm not a frequent flyer (the last time I flew before this was
in an old 737 10 years ago) and this was my first experience of night
landings and approaches. Is this common? If so, I suppose we have a 20th
Century jump dimming...

Anyone know why the regulation is there?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:15:25 +0800 (WST)
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Behind the times

I have been off-line for a while and things have got past me.  Perhaps
some of you can bring me up to dat.

What is T5, and where is official traveller going?

What is the main difference between FF&S1 (with corrections) and FF&S2?
Is there a FF&S for T$?  Why all these differennt design protocols?

Is anybody working on the 4th Imperium, starts in about 1300 after:
a) virus is over and maybe new types of chips (not silicon) are used or
b) the rebellion is over and a new empire is being (or has been) forged?

IMTU I use TNE rules (and I think I have all the TNE material) but the
world is that of Megatraveller, Thr RC is a
suitablly detailed whipping post.


Did Virus really happen, or is it regard as being an aberation, along with
the
whole of the TNE universe?  

Were there any Challenge Mags after 77?

cheers
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:50:52 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: SF Chemistry (was Re: Wipeout or I can land it)

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, jim clem wrote:

> Hate to say it, but transparent metal is just so much Star Trek pseudo 
> science.  Make a metal transparent, and you don't have a metal anymore.  
> Maybe an exotic composite, but you've altered the structure of the metal 
> in the process, and most likely lost the properties you wanted in the 
> first place.

That's the point with Star Tech ... it works somewhat good in physics but
gets up to being ridiculous when talking about chemistry. It's the fact
that chamistry ends at the atomic/molecular level (sometimes at the
electronic, but no further). I read the ST Technical manual and had it
hard to hold laughing when I read of 'Sarium Krellide' and the formula of
Dilithium ...

The metal properties of conduction and glittering colour both are based
on the electrons, which in metal are very 'loose', i.e. got a high
moveability. (This in fact is described as an 'electron gas')
The transparent materials we know (diamond (carbon), glass (silicates))
are the exact opposite, as they got hard, covalent bondings, which let the
electrons not allow to leave their atoms. So if you now alter the
structure of a metal to loose the shimmering, you also loose the
conduction - a probably the hardness, too. So we still can think only of
metal-like composites, that provide either the one or the other property
of metals.

But chemistry often can get a problem to SF. It works good when
considering the new biochemistry of an alien, but another point I don't
really understand as a chemist is for example the superdense armor.
As the metal crystal shows the way to pack atoms at the highest density, I
cannot think of a way to get them even closer without shoving the
electrons into the atom nuclei (and this being stable!). This only can be
explainable by altering the physics of the whole case. (some field? rays?
etc.) 

So there's only one way to explain it: It's SF. If we knew how to explain
it, we probably could build it and at the end would  - so where would the
fiction be? Good Science Fiction does not explain the future, but builds
it without interfering with present physics (and chemistry?)

Could I get scientific enough for the readers?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:58:20 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Carbon monoxide as atmospheric taint

Interesting thread.
Another source for the CO : incomplete combustion of surface vegetation.
CO pressure may reach sufficient level to cause neurotoxicity
(delirium).
Eg. the planet Echronedal in I. M. Banks' "The Player of Games".
There is a continual wildfire circling the planet. Once every twelve
years, a flashover occurs (a certain plant stores oxygen and fuel in
seedpods)...

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:00:48 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: BTRC temporarily offline

For those who wondered, BTRC is temporarily offline because of a ridiculous
billing dispute with AOL ... how can you resolve it online when they've cut you
off?

Anyway, they will be back on air within the next few days.

I can pass on *really* urgent messages.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:26:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Filtering out CO2

David J. Golden writes:

>>2) Yes, you can filter out CO2 easily, using a particular crystalline 
>>material (I forget the name).  The same system has been used in 
>>spacecraft and submarines for decades.
> 
>	To be technical, it's not filtered but absorbed, by lithium
>hydroxide. Big deal--to the user it's the same thing--he puts on a
>mask with a doohickey that takes the bad stuff out, and has to
>replace something in the mask every so often ...

I agree that this would count as a filter mask for purposes of the
definintion of a tainted atmosphere. Can you tell me how long "every
so often" is likely to be? I mean, theres a limit to how big a lump
of this lithium hydroxide stuff you can comfortably lug around on a
face mask. I realize that this would depend on the exact CO2 content,
but could you come up with some ballpark figures (and perhaps even an
estimate of the cost of replacement "loads")?

Would these lithium hydroxide slugs be reusable? That is, how big and
complicated an apparatus would you need to remove the CO2 from them?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:02:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS product release - latest Rob Prior Software

Now available from BITS, the latest CORE Development Group software from
Rob Prior for the MacOS, Imperial Grand Survey v2 and QSDS.

Rob has spent the summer beavering away on some new software for you all
(well, for all the TML Mac owners!), which is now available. The demo
versions are downloadable from my website (see sig file for URL). Those of
you at GenCon UK may well get a chance to try them out.

*Imperial Grand Survey v2

... a superb (IMO) piece of software which implements sector generation at
a Domain level, allowing the Traveller Referee to rapidly create a
playground for their players to explore, fight over, and trade in. Supports
generation of multiple Milieux and Races, plus Collapsing Rules from TNE.
Maps may be annotated with text and calibration points. The software
implements the system generation rules from all previous versions of
Traveller, including the modified routes from the Alien Modules. Includes
language generation for world names.
Download of the "IGS2" Demo (103 kB compressed).

*QSDS

...an implementation of version 1.5 of the QSDS starship design system from
Marc Miller's Traveller. This software operates in the same way as
Infini-V, allowing a referee to design a ship up to 5000 dT through the use
of pull down menus, and allows final export of the design as Text or HTML
in the USD ship card format from the main rule book. (QSDS was written by
Guy Garnett, and may be found in the Missouri Archive. as an Acrobat file).
It is not planned to update this software to incorporate the 'Big Hulls'
document at present, but if demand is high enough Rob will consider it.
Download of the "QSDS" Demo (94 kB compressed).
Still available----

*Infini-V
...an extensive implementation of the vehicle design rules presented in the
Imperium Games' Central Supply Catalog. As well as performing all the
difficult calculations, the software provides the ability to export the
resulting design as HTML or text for use in other packages. Allows weapon
designs to be added and edited. The software is only available for the
Macintosh at present, but is currently being ported to the PC. Previously
available as the freeware alpha release 'CSC', this software should load
CSC v1.3n files.
Download  of the "Infini-V" Demo (162 kB compressed).

(The above software is shareware, published through BITS. All programs are
fully functional except that the save, export and print options have been
disabled. Registration removes these limits, and also entitles you any
maintenance updates free of charge. Details about registering (costs and
addresses) may be found in the programs themselves.)

If you come across any problems with the software, please post to Rob or
myself directly...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:47:57 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: SSgt Arden Stilwell Merc Cruiser

DOuglas Glatz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Finally, the SSgt Arden Stillwell provides it's troopers with the latest in 
Low Berth technology.  While the unit Cadre (1 officer, 4 NCOs) are 
planning out the assault to come, the common trooper will slumber in the 
latest InGen LowBerth.  The advantage to the unit is that the soldiers will 
not suffer from the shipboard malaise and hostilities that close confines 
inevitably bring out in combat soldiers.  The advantage to the soldier is 
that even thought he/she is in suspended animation, the enlistment clock is 
still ticking!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've seen an idea like this several times in sci-fi - crack troops kept
in suspended animation, only waking them up just before you send
them into combat.

Imagine the effect on the mind of the infantryman. Instead of the usual
combat tour, 90% boredom and 10% sheer terror, they get to experience
tours that are 90% sheer terror!

Assuming that the human mind can adapt to such conditions
(and the human mind is nothing if not adaptable), I'd imagine these
"sleepers" would be, at the end of their tours, some of the most
dangerous people in the galaxy, even to walk by on the street.

While regular soldiers spent the past four years getting R&R,
shooting the bull, redoing training excercises, and dealing with the
post-action stress of their few intense combat experiences, the "sleepers"
spent the past two subjective months in near-continuous close combat.


Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601


Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:51:21 -0400
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Black ICE wrote:
>what allowance (if any) is made for starship depreciation?
In The Traveller Adventure game I wrote (http://www.nova.org/~sol/core) it
kept track of, essentially, the wear value of your ship. Normal use would
clock up the wear value. If you did something like run unrefined fuel
through it, it would clock it up more. Performing your "annual maintenence"
would mitigate a certain amount of wear. Doing this once a year would
generally keep the "value" of your ship roughly in line with the amount of
money outstanding in a normal mortgage. Doing it more often than once a
year would keep away more and leave you with a ship that was "younger" than
it appeared.
In the game these number were to lead on to two things:
1) If you wanted to re-mortgage your ship, the insurance company would
assess the wear on it and would give you a mortgage based on the value.
2) You would be able to buy other, bigger ships, who list price was well
beyond affordability, but because of its condition, was brought down to
something you could afford.

In actual roleplaying, it isn't something that I've ever worried about.
Since the value changes slowly over time, I have seldom seen a campaign
where it ever mattered.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 23:26:48
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: William O Darby class mercernary cruiser

>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Request for Information re:800 Ton Merc. Criuser
>
>
>William O. Darby, Colonel Rogers class Mercenary Cruiser (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Douglas E. Berry					
>

<good stuff deleted>

>The Colonel Rogers class is another fine product of Gridlore Technologies..
>Gridlore, *our* products aren't designed by drugged up children.

Uncie ... whyyyyyy would you buildie-wilde a eight hunnerd ton mercenary
cruuuuiser with no meson gunnie-wunnie for fire-wire support-wort, an an an
no shooort duration, say maybe threee gees for one hour-wour heplaaaaar
drive ?

An an an weeeee think you should have more missile-wissiles, in order to
scrubbidie-dub-dub the laaaaanding site.

Ditzie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:02:37 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Resource for military campaigns

Black Ice posted:

>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>> 
>> Recently ran across an ad in Soldier of Fortune (yes, I subscribe to SOF)
>>"Soldier of Fiction"?  ;-)
>
>> for Military Media Productions.  These folks sell cd-roms containing
FM/TMs
>> of particular subjects.  Intrigued, I ordered the special ops disc.
>> 
>> This is a find, everything you ever wanted to know about running a small,
>> elite team of commandos. (sound familar?)  Nice to have the latest
>> versions.. my copy of the Ranger Handbook is old and outdated, and I
won't
>> even mention my Infantry Blue Book..
>> 
>> http://www.military-media.com
>> 
>
>A _free_ source of at least some current US Army manuals, training aids,
>and other truly useful stuff can be found at the following Web site:
>
>http://155.217.58.58/
>
>(This is the Army Doctrine and Training Digital Library [ADTDL].)

The topic "FM3_11.........FLAME, RIOT CONTROL & HERB OPERATIONS"
looks rather interesting. Somehow I don't think they're talking
about ginseng and cinnamon.

BTW, another good link is http://www.specialoperations.com/

It contains information, manuals, etc. pertaining to U.S. Special Ops.
All are downloadable. Of course, the nice thing about a CD is the info
is still available when a hard drive crashes, an ISP is down, or you're
using someone else's CD drive.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:07:22 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Starship Insurance Costs

If anyone knows how insurance premiums are figured, please help me with
this question.

A player wants to insure his Mcr 750 starship against loss and damage.
This is precisely analogous to what I have on my car and home.  I need to
provide a biweekly (or monthly) payment to incorporate into ship's expenses.

My Homeowners policy will cover my home's loss and everything in it up to
an insured value of $180,000 (which is the mortgage principal, not the
purchase price, but let's not get into that), with a $500 per incident
deductable.  This will cover me if there is a fire, a rampaging bull or
tractor trailer truck comes through, large nasty people bent on
maliciousness (unless its "civil unrest") stealing my stuff, and various
other unfortunate happenstances.  It also covers me if my neightbor slips
on my stairs and sues me for all I'm worth.

It will not cover me if I turn my home into a gymnasium and the musclebound
creeps wreck the place, that's a "business activity" and isn't covered.

It will not cover earthquakes, floods or hurricanes, they're "acts of Nature".

I pay about $44 per month for this coverage.

My auto insurance covers similar problems, but since collisions with other
moving objects is much more likely, I pay about $90 per month for this
coverage, also with a $500 deductable.

These work out to about .001 of the insured value per month.  That's too
high for anon-canon expense, so I am probably going to use an order less
than that; .0001 of the value.  That works out to Cr. 75k per month or 900k
per year.  not too bad.  The other wya would be adding 9 Mcr per year,
making profits even further away.

So here's my take on Starship Insurance;

- -------Begin Insurance Clause-------

Starburst Mutual Insurance Co.  A Division of Ling Standard Product LIC.

Coverage: This policy will reimburse the policy holder for up to the
replacement value of the vessel (depreciation at 1% per year, assuming
regular maintanence) for damage or loss as a result of collision, acts of
piracy, failure of properly maintained equipment, vandalism, acting to aid
another craft in danger, theft, accidents where neglect has not been
proven, and such other events not specifically excluded below that are not
a result of willful negligence on the part of the policy holder.

Exclusions: This policy shall not reimburse the policy holder for damage
resulting from acts of war, acts of nature, damage resulting from actions
which willfully and intentionally put the insured property in danger
(except where acting to preserve life or property of higher value or need,
in an emergency situation), or damage resulting from neglect of proper
safety or maintanence procedures.

Deductable: The Policy Holder shall be responsible for the first Cr 5,000
worth of damage resulting from a claim.  This is a per incident deductable.

Payment:  This policy costs $.0001 per month of the insured value of the
property.  Payable at any LSP Payment Center available at most Imperial A
and B Class Starports.

- -------End Insurance Clause-------

Comments?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #794
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, September 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 795



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #793
Re: Psionic societies
Re: William O Darby class mercernary cruiser
Re: Resource for military campaigns
Re: Behind the times
Re: SSgt Arden Stilwell Merc Cruiser
Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?
Re: Starship Insurance Costs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #794
Re: Filtering out CO2
Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?
Re: Starship Insurance Costs
Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces?
Re: 1) Apology
Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces?
Intrepid class scout
Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?
Re: HIWG CD
Re: 4) Imperiallines
Re: Resource for military campaigns
1) Re: Additional wealth for PCs 2) Hooah 3) Grav Belt's? 4) TNS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:53:24 +0200
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #793

Similarly, today some bodies of water can be anoxic at
depth if the rate that organic matter (which consumes
oxygen as it rots) is being introduced exceeds the rate
of oxygen introduction.

I don't know enough biochemistry to know if bacteria would
be likely to make CO under these conditions.  My guess is
rather than make CO, they would go ahead and make CO2 anyway.

They don't do (i don't know of any that makes CO in such conditions).

In the anoxic depths of the oceans bacteria don't produce any compound wich contains
oxygen, they produce methane (CH4), and other reduced compounds as a product of their
respiration, not CO2.

- ------------------
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:44:54 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

> Ah, but the genetic codes for psionics are there...  You have got to
> remember that the Zho want all of their nobles to be psionic...  So an
> intendant to have a high psi-strength means that the children of that
> person may have a better chance for psionic powers...

Nope. Psi powers are not hereditary. It says so right in the Zho Alien
module. Which makes me wonder...

If we assume that there are two ways to become a Zho noble:

 - be the child of a noble, with or without psi powers
 - be elevated to noble status via hig psi strength

then how come the whole Zhodani populace haven't become nobles
over the centuries?

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:14:42 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: William O Darby class mercernary cruiser

At 11:26 PM 9/2/98, you wrote:

>>The Colonel Rogers class is another fine product of Gridlore Technologies..
>>Gridlore, *our* products aren't designed by drugged up children.
>
>Uncie ... whyyyyyy would you buildie-wilde a eight hunnerd ton mercenary
>cruuuuiser with no meson gunnie-wunnie for fire-wire support-wort, an an an
>no shooort duration, say maybe threee gees for one hour-wour heplaaaaar
>drive ?

Because I was trying to keep the cost down to something less than a billion
credits.  This isn't a top of the line navy ship, it's the moral equivalant
of a M-113 APC: cheap and effective.

>An an an weeeee think you should have more missile-wissiles, in order to
>scrubbidie-dub-dub the laaaaanding site.

So do I I I (slap!).  *ahem*  So do I, but space became a consideration.
When I was done, I had about 1 cubic meter of waste space left, and a ship
that exceeded the design specs.

If I wear to go over the design, I'd probably cut acceleration to 1G, and
upgrade the armanment.
- --

Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
*******************************************
"It is better to have more lightning in the
 brain and less thunder in the mouth."
                              -Sioux saying

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:07:11 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Resource for military campaigns

At 08:57 PM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote:

>How do the manuals look?  Any graphics or just raw text?

They are scanned in copies using .pdf format.  Very nice job.

>P.S.  How's At Close Quarters coming?

Almost done!  Waiting to hear back from a few more playtesters before the
final rewrite.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 07:58:46 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Behind the times

At 04:15 PM 9/2/98 +0800, you wrote:

>What is T5, and where is official traveller going?

T5 is Marc's working title for the next edition.  Originally called T4.1,
the complete melt down of Imperium Games caused him to bump up a full
version number.  AFAIK, Marc is still writing the rules, and shopping
around for a publisher.

>What is the main difference between FF&S1 (with corrections) and FF&S2?
>Is there a FF&S for T$?  Why all these differennt design protocols?

FFS2 is the canon design sequence for T4.  It was worked on by actual
engineers and such, so gives good "hard" science results.  It's also wider
in scope, allowing variant systems for life support and the like.  There is
an excellent spreadsheet available for building starships with FFS2:

http://www.ames.net/igor/traveller/index.htm

Right now, we're waiting for news from Marc about T5.  Also, Steve Jackson
Games is releasing GURPS:Traveler in about two weeks.  Set in an alternate
timeline where Dulinor is killed (or is he?) before he can assassinate
Strephon.  A series of sourcebooks is planned.

>Is anybody working on the 4th Imperium, starts in about 1300 after:
>a) virus is over and maybe new types of chips (not silicon) are used or
>b) the rebellion is over and a new empire is being (or has been) forged?

Not officially, though I've heard people talk about such a setting.

<snip>

>Did Virus really happen, or is it regard as being an aberation, along with
>the whole of the TNE universe? 

Depends on who you talk to.  My campaign is set in the Classic era, but I'd
probably change Virus a great deal before using it.  Some people like it,
some people hate the idea.  It's one of topics we've down to death on the
list.  Officially, it's part of Traveller's history.  Unofficially, it's
your game. 

>Were there any Challenge Mags after 77?

I think that was the last of them.

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:31:30 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: SSgt Arden Stilwell Merc Cruiser

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I've seen an idea like this several times in sci-fi - crack troops kept
>in suspended animation, only waking them up just before you send
>them into combat.
>
>Imagine the effect on the mind of the infantryman. Instead of the usual
>combat tour, 90% boredom and 10% sheer terror, they get to experience
>tours that are 90% sheer terror!
>
>Assuming that the human mind can adapt to such conditions
>(and the human mind is nothing if not adaptable), I'd imagine these
>"sleepers" would be, at the end of their tours, some of the most
>dangerous people in the galaxy, even to walk by on the street.
>
>While regular soldiers spent the past four years getting R&R,
>shooting the bull, redoing training excercises, and dealing with the
>post-action stress of their few intense combat experiences, the "sleepers"
>spent the past two subjective months in near-continuous close combat.


I don't doubt that the capabilities of low berth can be misused, especially
by a merc company working on the edge of profit.  The design intention was
to reduce the travel time (and life support costs) of encountered when
transporting a unit from it's base of operations (where the troops would
actually spend most of their time) to the staging orbit.

One point I neglected to mention about this class, it's extensive batteries
allow it 40+ hours of operation in a zero emcon (no emmissions) status.

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:55:24 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?

SD Mooney posted:
>
>I've just enjoyed a week in Malta soaking up the sun, but the flights at
>the start and end of the journey set me thinking....
>
>Just before we landed all lights in the cabin were dimmed or shut off, and
>the same happen before take off on the way home, and landing back at
>Manchester. I'm not a frequent flyer (the last time I flew before this was
>in an old 737 10 years ago) and this was my first experience of night
>landings and approaches. Is this common? If so, I suppose we have a 20th
>Century jump dimming...
>
>Anyone know why the regulation is there?

What I've "heard" (purely rumor) is the dimming is used to help passengers
maintain their night vision, thereby reducing the chance of injury in case
they need to evacuate the plane upon landing. Of course, if passengers *do*
need to evac do to a problem during landing, maintaining their night vision
is usually the least of their problems.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Insurance Costs

Peter H. Brenton writes:
> If anyone knows how insurance premiums are figured, please help me with
> this question.

Well, there's typically a lot of black magic involved in the computations, but
the basic rule of thumb is that the cost of insurance will exceed the average
expected payouts -- so the insurance company makes its own estimate of how
likely being forced to pay how much actually is, and then charge enough that by
the time on average it has to pay, it will have received more money in payments
than it will have to pay out.
> 
> A player wants to insure his Mcr 750 starship against loss and damage.

This is likely to depend considerably on (a) what kind of damage we're talking
about, (b) what the player expects to _do_ with the starship, and (c) where the
starship is likely to be operating.  For example, if you are carrying cargos
through a warzone where commerce raiders have a 10% chance of destroying
shipping, insurance will be _at least_ 75 million, and more likely 100 million,
_per voyage_.
> 
> These work out to about .001 of the insured value per month.  That's too
> high for anon-canon expense, so I am probably going to use an order less
> than that; .0001 of the value.  That works out to Cr. 75k per month or 900k
> per year.  not too bad.  The other wya would be adding 9 Mcr per year,
> making profits even further away.

Well, if on average one ship in a thousand per year will suffer a level of
damage sufficient to cause insurance to apply (or a larger percentage require
partial repairs), this is reasonable.  For safe routes in the inner sectors of
the Imperium, this may be reasonable.  For people doing the kind of interesting
stuff PCs are likely to want to do with starships, insurance in the value of 1%
per month (yes, substantially _higher_ than your interest payments) or higher
are appropriate....
Basically, if you figure that the PC is likely to _ever_ collect on the
insurance, the insurance should be quite expensive.
> 
> So here's my take on Starship Insurance;
> 
> -------Begin Insurance Clause-------
> 
> Starburst Mutual Insurance Co.  A Division of Ling Standard Product LIC.
> 
> Coverage: This policy will reimburse the policy holder for up to the
> replacement value of the vessel (depreciation at 1% per year, assuming
> regular maintanence) for damage or loss as a result of collision, acts of
> piracy, failure of properly maintained equipment, vandalism, acting to aid
> another craft in danger, theft, accidents where neglect has not been
> proven, and such other events not specifically excluded below that are not
> a result of willful negligence on the part of the policy holder.
> 
> Exclusions: This policy shall not reimburse the policy holder for damage
> resulting from acts of war, acts of nature, damage resulting from actions
> which willfully and intentionally put the insured property in danger
> (except where acting to preserve life or property of higher value or need,
> in an emergency situation), or damage resulting from neglect of proper
> safety or maintanence procedures.
> 
> Deductable: The Policy Holder shall be responsible for the first Cr 5,000
> worth of damage resulting from a claim.  This is a per incident deductable.

A typical deductible for a starship would probably be at least 1% of the value
of the vessel, at least if you want sane rates.  In general, for best rates you
want a deductible which is as high as you can afford to pay without otherwise
crippling your business.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:18:49 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <Philk@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #794

>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:07:22 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Starship Insurance Costs
>
>If anyone knows how insurance premiums are figured, please help me with
>this question.

I don't, but I'll comment anyway

>A player wants to insure his Mcr 750 starship against loss and damage.

<snip>

>than that; .0001 of the value.  That works out to Cr. 75k per month or 900k
>per year.  not too bad.  The other wya would be adding 9 Mcr per year,
>making profits even further away.

9MCr on a 750MCr starship = 300kCr/year on a free trader

It does not sound too unreasonable, especially if you are a follower of the
"life support and cargo costs include insurance" school.

>So here's my take on Starship Insurance;

<snip>

>Exclusions: ... damage resulting from actions
>which willfully and intentionally put the insured property in danger
>(except where acting to preserve life or property of higher value or need,
>in an emergency situation), ...

I'm not convinced by the exception:
either the action won't be wilful (if the law is you must respond to a
distress call, then heading into a dangerous area to provide help
should not be covered by this exclusion anyway.)
or you'll probably have someone else to claim from so why worry.

Of course you've missed the opportunity for the "Uninsured Loss recovery"
premium so that if someone else crashes into your spaceship,
your ULR policy pays for your repairs and then they claim against
the third party. If your party doesn't have lots of spare cash
lying around it could get them back in trading a lot sooner with
less risk of going bankrupt waiting for the consequential loss payouts.

Hmmm, speaking of consequential loss...how about something about
getting repairs done in a timely fashion with an approved repairer,
just so the PCs don't sit around letting the insurers pay all their
expenses whilst they adventure on planet.

Also, you might want to add a limited liability against cargo values
(and people) so that you don't bankrupt the insurers with a 
trillion credit cargo.

Finally, I had an uncle who was an engineer for an insurance company
- - he inspected any machinery that the company insured
(annually I think). It would probably be part of the annual
maintenance schedule since it would take about two weeks for
a team of engineers to inspect your starship.

Fail the insurance inspection and no insurance.

No insurance and the bank can't guarantee to get their money back
so they want repaying immediately.

Replaying the bank means your character gets a 3GCr bill from the bank
 => instant bankcruptcy.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Interested in a wargames show in Colchester, Essex UK?
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:23:17 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Filtering out CO2

Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:26:11 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>I agree that this would count as a filter mask for purposes of the
>definintion of a tainted atmosphere. Can you tell me how long "every
>so often" is likely to be? I mean, theres a limit to how big a lump
>of this lithium hydroxide stuff you can comfortably lug around on a
>face mask. I realize that this would depend on the exact CO2 content,
>but could you come up with some ballpark figures (and perhaps even an
>estimate of the cost of replacement "loads")?
>
>Would these lithium hydroxide slugs be reusable? That is, how big and
>complicated an apparatus would you need to remove the CO2 from them?

Actually, this would be a TL 8 filter mask.  I doubt you would try and
recharge the LiOH in place.  Just send the old cartridge back and get
a new one.

At higher TLs I think you would use something along the lines of a "molcular
sieve" (zeolites with channels of a certain size in them, they will
hold molecules that fit in the channels preferentially).  A material
that absorbs pretty much just CO2, and releases it when heated, is
not that far fetched.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:34:48 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?

SD Mooney wrote:

> Just before we landed all lights in the cabin were dimmed or shut off, and
> the same happen before take off on the way home, and landing back at
> Manchester. I'm not a frequent flyer (the last time I flew before this was
> in an old 737 10 years ago) and this was my first experience of night
> landings and approaches. Is this common? If so, I suppose we have a 20th
> Century jump dimming...

In all the flights (in the US) that have taken place at night, they dim the
cabin lights for passenger comfort only.

> Anyone know why the regulation is there?

Don't think there is one.  Its just standard policy.

I suppose in case of accident, the strip lights to the emergency exits would
be more visible.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:36:20 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Insurance Costs

Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:07:22 -0400, "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>

>If anyone knows how insurance premiums are figured, please help me with
>this question.

The key issue is, what are the odds of a loss?   (That is why Insurance
companies are so into statistics and why the often refuse to insure
when the risks are unkown).  Once you have the odds of the loss for
the period the premium covers, and you know what profit you want
to get out of the deal, the premium is....

Premium = Profit + (Odds of loss) x (Average Cost of a loss)

(if you wanted to get technical, it would be the sum of the odds
of each kind of loss times the cost of that loss).


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:18:33 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces?

Douglas Glatz wrote:
 
> I have used the 'attic' area for some interesting encounters.  I've had
> everything from clothes lines to artwork and in the case of one particularly
> twisted scout, a pistol range...

Once upon a time, I had a still set up in the Scout's 'attic', an entire
micro-brewery, in fact. 

Don't *all* groups, set up a still somewhere on their ships? ;-> 

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:36:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

And that's ALL we can do about it right now, except try and make as much
money as possible.

To be honest, Alvin, given the way Eris has run the campaign so far, I
really didn't expect to waltz in, pick up the access codes to the Mae
Lee, flip the big red switch and gallivant off into the unknown.

I do have fears that when we get to Mark, we'll be drivven waaaaaay off
to the edge of the starport, out with the weeds and spares, and be told
that "That pile over there is the Mae Lee...she's all yours, storage
fees commence now."

I'll have to see if I can dredge up some pictures of the Air Force
boneyard here in Tucson. It's been the backdrop for a number of movies.
If anyone managed to stick with it till the end, the big battle in
"Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man" takes place there. There are some
huge transports there with stub wings, no noses, and empty nacelles
where no-longer-in-production engines used to be.

That's what I'm worrying about, not coming up with the bucks for a minor
refit...


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:14:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces?

Eris reddoch wrote:
> 
> Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> > I have used the 'attic' area for some interesting encounters.  I've had
> > everything from clothes lines to artwork and in the case of one particularly
> > twisted scout, a pistol range...
> 
> Once upon a time, I had a still set up in the Scout's 'attic', an entire
> micro-brewery, in fact.
> 
> Don't *all* groups, set up a still somewhere on their ships? ;->

Gotta wonder if that's not the _real_ reason that scout/couriers all
smell like old sneakers; and not crappy LS systems...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:09:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Intrepid class scout

I've added my version of the Intrepid class type-S scout to my web page.
I based the deck plans on those included in Snapshot...just to add
another variant of the good old type-S to the universe.

It's at http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/traveller.htm

Deckplans - they just ain't real to me without the deckplans!  <g>

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:17:04 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> I've just enjoyed a week in Malta soaking up the sun, but the flights at
> the start and end of the journey set me thinking....
> 
> Just before we landed all lights in the cabin were dimmed or shut off, and
> the same happen before take off on the way home, and landing back at
> Manchester. I'm not a frequent flyer (the last time I flew before this was
> in an old 737 10 years ago) and this was my first experience of night
> landings and approaches. Is this common? If so, I suppose we have a 20th
> Century jump dimming...
> 
> Anyone know why the regulation is there?
> 
I'm not sure that it is a regulation, but I believe it is done to assist
the pilot by reducing the glare. They follow much the same practice when
docking ships I believe. That is they cloke over or obscure the forward
shining cabin lights. Such is the case here with ferry crossings
arriving in the evenings.

Jim C

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:10:42 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

WOW is Right,.,,, it's pack with stuff that's more then kkewl....
spreadsheets are worth the CD....

and the pics are good for webpages and gameing... I'm going to make a
traveller theme for my desktop.. this should rock

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 12:27 AM
Subject: HIWG CD


>My CD arrived yesterday.  One word suffices to describe it:  WOW!
>
>
>
>Bill Rutherford
>worj@topgun.cinecom.com
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:25:26 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: 4) Imperiallines

At 10:29 PM 9/1/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Imperiallines is a minor - but Imperium-wide - freight line, which is
>owned by the Imperial Family. 

Mmmmmm.... sort of.  MT (and even GT) references used
the Imperiallines name to keep it familiar, but
when it was introduced in The Traveller Adventure,
it was implied that "Imperiallines" was just the
name the network operated under in the region
that included Aramis Subsector (parts of the Marches 
and Deneb?). Imperium-wide operations would mark
it as a Megacorporation, and that would give it
too high a profile for its intended functions.

Going by the original intent, it'd be more accurate 
to say that, through a nigh-untracable maze of
holding companies, the Imperial family owns
a number of freight-only shipping companies.
(as a general guess, each of these has routes
across a one-half- to two-sector region, with
territories overlapping extensively, but all 
together they cover the entire Imperium. Routes
tend to be long, and the crew turnover rate is
just high enough that its no suprise if crew
from one ship don't know anyone from another
ship, even if they nominally work for the
same company.) All these companies -- by pure 
coincidence <wink wink> -- operate ships with 
the same standard design.

One of these companies, which has operations
in the Aramis subsector of the Spinward Marches,
is Imperiallines.

>It operates mainly as a typical
>transport line, but also has some jump-6 transport's 
>designed to look like the standard jump-4 ship.

This is because it's _supposed_ to be the Imperial
family's covert courier network, with the long-
legged courier ships unobtrusively mixed in
with the normal cargo ships just going about
their mundane work. The companies' operating 
procedures are arranged to make it easier for
the couriers not to stand out from the regular
transports.

>
>One thing the Referee might do it make it the semi-offical 
>transport line for Imperial Research Station's.  The 
>vast majority of good's shipped are mundane, if of 
>admittedly high quality.  Certain items, however, are
>interesting: not important enough to rate Naval ship's, 
>but too sensitive to be hauled by regular civilian's.  

Except that Imperiallines is supposed to look and 
operate like a regular civilian line, except for
the couriers, and even those **look** normal.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:34:01 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: Resource for military campaigns

> Date:          Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:55:06 -0500
> From:          Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> If there are similar sites for other services (US and abroad), I'd like
> to see them posted here (after all, while the manuals were not _written_
> with the Traveller multiverse in mind, I think that referees and players
> could find useful material in current doctrinal manuals).

US Marine Corps info:

   http://www.usmc.mil/info.nsf/info

Lots of stuff, including a comprehensive catalog of equipment.


- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.mindlink.net/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:31:32 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Re: Additional wealth for PCs 2) Hooah 3) Grav Belt's? 4) TNS

>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:49:23
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Additional wealth for PCs

>If [a wealthy person] want to be irresponsible, you can be ... but if you
want to be a
>respected member of the nobility, then you have to act the part. And
>occasionally, that could include doing things that are stupid, dangerous or
>stupidly dangerous.

I believe the saying goes "Brains is not a requirement for an English
nobleman."

>>   50 MCr - in actual private wealth: land, government debt instrument's,
>>                   stock's, precious metal's, etc.  Maybe 5 MCr is
available
>>                   for discrectionary spending, and of that, usually only
1 MCr
>>                   is available for "active vacations".

>How much work does it need to keep the MCr 50 in capital earning 10% ? How
>stable is the government whose paper you hold ? Do the companies whose
>stock you own expect you to sit on the Board (it Gurps terms, a couple of 2
>point Duties)?

Good point's, esp. about the Director's/CEO's duties....

>Personally, I'd also say the rate of return is too high. Imperial interest
>rates seem to be about 2-3%, which means a rate of 4% is doing pretty
>well.

That "5 MCr" isn't profit but capital: it's a guesstamate on what the
typical wealthy family is willing to put at risk on entertaining peer's,
highly speculative spending, long-term project's, charitable donations,
venture's with no predictable return, or a return which is intangable or
very long term.

On second glance, 5 MCr capital exenditure is simply a ridiculous
expendeture for a family with 4 MCr of profit's coming in each year
from their 200 MCr corporation.  (Of course, there are those
wealthy folk who simply Don't Care...)

The company profit's are often used in part for capital
investment, dividend's, debt payment's, etc.: maybe 20% of the
corporate profit's actually return's to the family coffer's, assuming that
the family corporation is owned completely by the family
[ignoring the creditor's for the moment].

So, let's assume a 2% return on family holdings of 50 MCr.  Family
holdings (1 MCr) plus direct revenue stream from their corporation
(.8 MCr) = 1.8 MCr.  Assume that 10% of these return's are available
for adventuring: that's 180,000 Cr.  Not all *that* much....

>>   50 MCr - in a small yatch/courier starship, usually chartered out, used
>>as a familly/corporate courier, or decked out to impress
>>businessmen. However, for two month's of every year, it's available
>>for use by the PC's for their "vacation".
>But not always when you want it.

Even the wealthy have their restriction's... the best way to go adventuring,
of course, is with access to the corporate fund's, but business travel
is usually as dull as dust.

>Heck, combine the two issues ("Well young Alva, I heard this story that
>there might be some ahhh security issues related to labour problems on
>Teiko. Take a couple of the disreputable rogues you call friends and take a
>look see. You look pale. You should spend some more time in the sun ...
>while you're there, you might get some hunting in ...").

Now, this is definitely doable: it would require a business of about 2 BCr
to
support, rather than 200 MCr, though.  Interesting....

>>The Imperium is so large and wealthy that this level of money is not even
>>noticed by High Society, even in a backwater like the Spinward Marches.
>Sort of. It depends what you do with it, really.

It's difficult to imagine what impact such small fry as a 250 MCr family
- - total - could do in a culture where "real wealth" start's at the 10 BCr
level, never mind the top 1% of families in the Marches have.

>>Still, it's enough to support regular adventuring, and even afford
>> a few things like a mercenary platoon
>Nope

Boy, was I off here!

>Assume 50 troops, each paid KCr 20 a year. Thats a cold megacredit.
>Then KCr 100 equipment each (and thats Combat Armour) is another MCr 5,
>which probably takes KCr 250 a year to maintain. Then transport costs, at
>(say) KCr 4 per jump in bunks.

Troop's - 1 MCr.  Equipment - 5 MCr  Equip. Maintenance - .25 MCr
Ten jump's per year - .04 MCr.  So far, that's 6.29 MCr.

 Warfare is rather expensive - just as well.....

************************
from http://users.aol.com/armysof1/hooah.html a Green Beret's site

<start quote>

Hooah (who-ah), adj. U.S. Army Slang. Referring to, or
meaning anything and everything except "no." Generally
used when at a loss for words. Also:

1. good copy, solid copy, roger, good or great;
      message received, understood.
2. glad to meet you, welcome.
3. I do not know, but will check on it, I haven't the vaguest idea.
4. I am not listening.
5. that is enough of your drivel--sit down.
6. stop sniveling.
7. you've got to be kidding.
8. yes.
9. thank you.
10. go to the next [briefing] slide.
11. you have taken the correct action.
12.  I don't know what that means, but am too
      embarrassed to ask for clarification.
13. that is really neat, I want one too.
14. amen.

<end quote>

Anyone care to project an equivelant for the Imperium?
Here's my contribution: anibani (Pronounced Ani-Bann-iii),
primarily used to mean object's spinning along two axis'
in low/zero gravity.  It also means...

1. What's going on? Is this being investigated?
    Who's investigating?
2. Pretty
3. Poor agility, disoriented, poor motor control
4. Nutso, weird, mysterious
5. Endless, neverending motion
6. Profitable, wealthy
7. Fascinating, in a deeply disturbing, spooky way
8. Excellent agility, graceful
9. Abandoned, ignored, left unattended
10. Pratical joke, humourous
11. Unclean, technologically advanced, things Man Was Not
       Meant To Know
12. Deliriously happy
13. Very fast, speedy, whizzing
14. Bright, smart, fast thinking
15. Dead Man's Spin

****************************************

Has anyone given a poke on infrantry tactic's with contragravity
belt's?  If so, where can I find it?  When is this tactic most effective,
anf when should I leave the belt's at home, and use grav vechiles,
ground vechiles or just plain walk? (Those belt's ARE rather expensive...)

****************************************

>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:33:20 +0400
>From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
>Subject: GURPS TNS

>DID Dulinor die? If he didn't then where is he? If he
>wasn't the target, then who was? Watch out for more news, same bat-time,
>same bat-channel (Ooops!)
>Andy

>PS - Conspiracy theories welcome

At this point, I would suspect that Dulinor is indeed dead as ash.  For it
not to be Dulinor,

* It would have to be a look-alike entering the gig
or
* He will have to have some way of teleporting out of the gig,
  to get onto a jump capable ship, and flee the system without
  being detected.

I would rule out using a jet pack out of the gig: the exhaust
would have been detected, or the Archduke would have been
spotted.

TNS: "The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not
convinced that Dulinor was the target of the explosion..."

OK, now why would they NOT be convinced that Dulinor was the target?
Especially when they are certain that the explosion was
designed to kill?   They probably have additional information
that convinces them that Dulinor was not the target, info that the TNS
hasn't revealed.  What could this information be?  The questioning
of the Illeish Guard, INI info, combing through Dulinor's private
record's on the _Sargon_....

Alvin Plummer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #795
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, September 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 796



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #795
Re: Intrepid class scout
Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces? 
Re: Behind the times
Pocket Empires
Re: Pocket Empires
FF&S1 rockets
cool techno-fact and piece of equipment
Re: 1) Apology
Filtering out CO2
Re: low berth
Big Buck PC's
Re:  3) Grav Belt's? 
Re: Pocket Empires
My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...
Re: cool techno-fact and piece of equipment
Re: Psionic societies
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...
An innocent little question
World Maps Available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 14:34:55
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #795

>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: William O Darby class mercernary cruiser
>
>At 11:26 PM 9/2/98, you wrote:
>
>>>The Colonel Rogers class is another fine product of Gridlore Technologies..
>>>Gridlore, *our* products aren't designed by drugged up children.
>>
>>Uncie ... whyyyyyy would you buildie-wilde a eight hunnerd ton mercenary
>>cruuuuiser with no meson gunnie-wunnie for fire-wire support-wort, an an an
>>no shooort duration, say maybe threee gees for one hour-wour heplaaaaar
>>drive ?
>
>Because I was trying to keep the cost down to something less than a billion
>credits.  This isn't a top of the line navy ship, it's the moral equivalant
>of a M-113 APC: cheap and effective.

Hmm, the Recollet costs MCr 226 and already has space for 8 passengers - so
thats Officers Country.

The 60 Other Ranks go in bunks installed in the cargo hold, together with
42 dtons of military stores. The Recollet's integral electronic shop,
machine shop and sick bay will allow it to perform field maintainence and
support, while the streamlined hull and defenses (nuke damper, 2 250 MJ
lasers and sandcaster) will provide self defense capability. Ten low berths
will let you freeze combat casualties too hurt for the sick bay.

The Recollet's jump-3 capability will also help you get where you want to
be quickly, and a 20 dt launch for transporting troops around the planet
while the Recollet goes home for reinforcements. 

Ta-da, a mercenary cruiser for a reinforced company, and we still have
change from MCr 250.

>
>>An an an weeeee think you should have more missile-wissiles, in order to
>>scrubbidie-dub-dub the laaaaanding site.
>
>So do I I I (slap!).  *ahem*  So do I, but space became a consideration.
>When I was done, I had about 1 cubic meter of waste space left, and a ship
>that exceeded the design specs.
>
>If I wear to go over the design, I'd probably cut acceleration to 1G, and
>upgrade the armanment.

I still like the idea of a basic 1G drive, and a short-duration Heplar
drive for the final orbital stage.

>
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:31:32 -0400
>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>

>>Heck, combine the two issues ("Well young Alva, I heard this story that
>>there might be some ahhh security issues related to labour problems on
>>Teiko. Take a couple of the disreputable rogues you call friends and take a
>>look see. You look pale. You should spend some more time in the sun ...
>>while you're there, you might get some hunting in ...").
>
>Now, this is definitely doable: it would require a business of about 2 BCr
>to
>support, rather than 200 MCr, though.  Interesting....

Not at all. See, Alva's aunt promised her friend Bubbles that she would get
someone to look at the situation on Teiko. Now, whilst Alva's Aunt may only
have (say) MCr 5 tied up on Teiko, Bubbles and Bubbles' friends may have a
lot more equity there - Alva's aunt is trying to do a favour for Bubbles.

>****************************************
>
>Has anyone given a poke on infrantry tactic's with contragravity
>belt's?  If so, where can I find it?  When is this tactic most effective,
>anf when should I leave the belt's at home, and use grav vechiles,
>ground vechiles or just plain walk? (Those belt's ARE rather expensive...)
>

A careful look at Bruce Macintosh's Defininite Sensor Rules indicates
contragravity is going to get used a lot less than we thought on the
battlefields of the Imperium.

See, the problem isnt that CG is expensive (it isnt, especially under FFS2)
but that C-G puts out gravity waves, and gravity waves can be detected by
specialised if not particularily expensive sensors.

This means that it is a lot easier to keep track of where grav tanks and
grav infantry are, which means life gets uncomfortable for them very very
fast.

Strange as it sounds, I think prop- and helicopters could actually be the
way to go in a high tech battlefield. C-G is more efficient, but it also
draws indirect fire like a dog draws fleas.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 01:00:48 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Intrepid class scout

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> announceth:

>I've added my version of the Intrepid class type-S scout to my web page.
>I based the deck plans on those included in Snapshot...just to add
>another variant of the good old type-S to the universe.
>
>It's at http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/traveller.htm

 Cool. "Stomped Scout" indeed!  I picture this baby looking sort of like
the Roswell UFO model made by one of the various model companies:
aerobody, slight tailfin, etc.

>
>Deckplans - they just ain't real to me without the deckplans!  <g>
>

Amen!

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 16:10:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Handling Procedures -- What to do with small spaces? 

> Douglas Glatz wrote:
>  
> > I have used the 'attic' area for some interesting encounters.  I've had
> > everything from clothes lines to artwork and in the case of one particularly
> > twisted scout, a pistol range...
> 
> Once upon a time, I had a still set up in the Scout's 'attic', an entire
> micro-brewery, in fact. 
> 
> Don't *all* groups, set up a still somewhere on their ships? ;-> 

Only in the engineering spaces, and only behind the fusion bottle.  No matter 
how good you insulate it, there's still some good heat you can leach off the 
heat exchanger.  <grin>

Keven

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:53:16 +0800 (WST)
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Behind the times

Thanks very much for the help.  

cheers
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:17:01 +0800 (WST)
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Pocket Empires

Is the sample family tree completely stuffed up or am I missing something?
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:27:57 -0600
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires

>Is the sample family tree completely stuffed up or am I missing something?
>Colin

I don't have it at hand but i remember being very confused. Family members
swapping relative age order, changing sex and that sort of thing.

Seeing as the company is out of business i guess the family has died off.
Too bad, so sad.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:50:05 +0800 (WST)
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: FF&S1 rockets

I tried designing some missiles for use against starships, using the
starship design rules around TL5-8.  ( A sort of long range
planetary defence missile) Without using fusion rockets or
better I could hardly get them into orbit.   Without CG it waas truly
hopeless.  Saturn Vs do not even get off the ground.  This seems to be
both a function of the enormous fuel consumptions of these rockes, and
also because gravity does not drop off with the square of
distance.  It is impossible to produce one G for one hour so far
as I can tell.  Am I completely confusede about this?

Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:44:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: cool techno-fact and piece of equipment

I have recently read research indicating that the resolution of the human 
eye - even a "perfect" human eye - isn't limited by the density of rods and
cones (the "pixels" of the eye) but by aberrations caused by the shape of the
"lens" of the eye; even someone with perfect focus and no astigmatism has 
higher-order aberrations that limit them to about half the resolution their
retina and brain could cope with.

I would therefore introduce a TL-12 item: "Adaptive Glasses" - lightweight
eyeglasses that adapt their shape to compensate in real time for these 
distortions, improving vision by a factor of 2. Weight negligible, cost
Cr 1000.

At TL-14 these become "Adaptive Contact Lenses" - cost Cr 5000. 

For double the price of either, low-light or IR functions can be added.

(Campaigns with agressive tech development could make each available 2 TL's
earlier...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 01:44:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

- ---alvin plummer <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

> > Alvin, there was a reason I didn't post that article here.  Every
> > one of my players is on the TML.  ;->
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!
> 
> (Feels like a heel)
> 
> I also apologize to his players on the list: I don't like
> ruining other folk's Traveller adventures AT ALL: or
> spoling surprises...

Not too much ruined. I know we all have firm suspicions of just that
sort of thing waiting on us. <g>

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 20:21:08 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Filtering out CO2

 Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote :-

David J. Golden writes:

>>2) Yes, you can filter out CO2 easily, using a particular crystalline
>>material (I forget the name).  The same system has been used in
>>spacecraft and submarines for decades.
>
>       To be technical, it's not filtered but absorbed, by lithium
>hydroxide. Big deal--to the user it's the same thing--he puts on a
>mask with a doohickey that takes the bad stuff out, and has to
>replace something in the mask every so often ...

I agree that this would count as a filter mask for purposes of the
definintion of a tainted atmosphere. Can you tell me how long "every
so often" is likely to be? I mean, theres a limit to how big a lump
of this lithium hydroxide stuff you can comfortably lug around on a
face mask. I realize that this would depend on the exact CO2 content,
but could you come up with some ballpark figures (and perhaps even an
estimate of the cost of replacement "loads")?

Would these lithium hydroxide slugs be reusable? That is, how big and
complicated an apparatus would you need to remove the CO2 from them?

CO2 absorbers used in circuit anaesthetic machines offer a useful
comparison.
Calcium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide in sodium and calcium
carbonate are packaged in small spheres to increase surface area.
(hydroxide + CO2 -> carbonate and water)
Anyway, four litres of beads last ninety days at twelve hours per day
usage.
This scales linearly (this is at basal ventilation ; twenty X faster
consumption rate at maximal exercise).
It costs about fifty dollars (Australian, therefore negligible hard
currency) per refill. ;-)

To recycle these, you would need a strong alkaline solution to reverse
the reaction. You could probably adapt the ship's Sabatier reactor (I
assume this is part of every ship's extended life support system, or a
descendant thereof) if you're really desperate. The ship's lab would
certainly have the equipment to do the trick (fume cupboard, heating
apparatus, resistant containers)...

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 05:55:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: SupremeThunder@webtv.net (Mike Schade)
Subject: Re: low berth

I believe low berth brings back the whole concept of steerage.  This is
a bad thing IMHO. Can you just image an jump style Titanic going down
after an asteriod impact, its frozen watch left behind in the chaos.
IMTU, zero point energy and the Alcubrierre warp metric replace the jump
drive as the drive star drive.  I just have real thrusters.  The time
doesn't change, just no jump space to worry about. It brings about
interesting stories.

Mike 

A child without courage is like a night without stars. Hindu saying.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 04:06:52 -0700
From: Robert Biggar Iii <rwb@tc.fluke.com>
Subject: Big Buck PC's

In reference to the thread on PC's with large amounts of cash, I 
thought I would share some of my group's experiences.
We are playing a pocket empire set just outside the Regency in the 
year 1206.  The PC's were sleepers through the worst of the Virus 
outbreak.  They came out of storage in 1201 with quite a bit of 
colony equipment and a clipper type ship thanks to some advance 
planning on the part of one of the PC's who was a powerful Baron 
before the Virus.  Rather than set themselves up as TEDs or pirates, 
the group chose to find a good world and try to bootstrap the 
population back up to spacefaring TL.  After many adventures to 
recover manufacturing equipment and the like, they have suceeded in 
developing a large corporation dedicated to the protection and uplift 
of the planet Atsah.  They have brought them from TL6 to 7 in 5 years 
game time with large expenditures of time and money and have a voice 
on the world council.  At any point, they could have easily taken 
control of the world by force, but chose to remain in the background, 
influencing politics and commerce.

Their corporate income is now in the Bcr's/year, but it is very easy 
for a DM to come up with a never ending expense list on a planetary 
scale.

As previously noted by another poster, it would be very easy for the 
PC's to fall into nothing but financial record keeping and high 
political role playing.  I have found it to be just as easy to keep 
the PC's interested in low level play by virtue of events that happen 
to their assets and extended families/contacts.  It can be very 
satisfying switching between high and low level play, as one session 
can contain events on the planetary/subsector scale as well as and 
assasination attempt on a PC by disgruntled politicos.

This type of campaign does require a fair amount of work for the 
referee, but I have come up with random event charts for the world, 
subsector and sector as well as a fair system of determining 
financial gains/losses on a monthly or yearly basis.  By reducing the 
high finance to a few die rolls once in a while, it leaves us free to 
concentrate on the role playing instead of where the last credit 
goes.  Another option here is for the PC's to have good 
accountants/lawyers/agents on the payroll to handle all the details 
and the referee can just inform them of results periodically.  Of 
course this leaves open all kinds of hooks too, perhaps that 
accountant is doing double entry books or the agent works for a 
competing group as well.

In short, it is possible to enjoy a high finance game greatly, but it 
requires players who are capable of looking beyond personal wealth 
and a dedicated referee.

Rob Biggar 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 07:18:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re:  3) Grav Belt's? 

alvin plummer wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> ****************************************
> 
> Has anyone given a poke on infrantry tactic's with contragravity
> belt's?  If so, where can I find it?  When is this tactic most effective,
> anf when should I leave the belt's at home, and use grav vechiles,
> ground vechiles or just plain walk? (Those belt's ARE rather expensive...)
> 
Well, one possibility is that grav belts are primarily used (in combat,
anyway) the way Heinlein's Mobile Infantry use the jets in their suits. 
You jump up, and the grav belt gives you a boost.  As you come back
down, the belt softens your landing.  This procedure not only keeps your
troops close to the ground (harder for an enemy to get line-of-sight on
them), but also reduces the gravity wave signature of the grav belt
itself.

For administrative movement, your grav-belt-equipped infantrymen can fly
at a reasonable clip.  If you have conventional transport that's faster,
obviously that would be a better solution than providing grav belts to
troops who don't need them.

IMTU, the only units routinely equipped with grav belts are jump troop
units in powered battle dress (such as the 1199th Imperial Jump Infantry
Regiment, commanded by one of my characters).  Given the difficulty of
including vehicles in the first wave of meteoric assault, these troopers
have a justifiable need for personal movement-enhancing equipment.  The
cost factor is not much of an issue, since these units _already_ have an
enormous cost-per-trooper for equipment and training, and are therefore
few and far between (IMTU, the 1199th is the only Imperial Army jump
troop unit in the Vilis subsector).  Dirty-nasty-leg units can be more
easily and cheaply equipped with vehicles, and therefore don't require
the additional expenses of grav belts and grav belt combat training.  Of
course, your mileage may vary....

> ****************************************
<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:08:25 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires

Colin Hutchinson wrote:

> Is the sample family tree completely stuffed up or am I missing something?
> Colin
>

It goes chronologically from the bottom up.
Archon go in the left most colimn.
Archon siblings to the right.
Children down and to the right.

At least, thats what I've been able to decipher.
I agree.  It is non-instinctive at best.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:23:32 -0500
From: "Andy Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...

I have had a request to add a feature to the spreadsheet, and I'm wondering
how much demand there would be for it (and if it would be appropriate).

Someone has asked for a page that produces Brilliant Lances/Battle Riders
stats, for TNE players. Since I have these games, I can convievably do this.

The questions are:

a) Do a lot of you want this?
b) Is it valid? I mean, my sheet is FF&S2, not FF&S. Thus I'm not sure if
the statistics generated are valid for TNE games. To "Those of you who know
stuff" how much did FF&S2 change from FF&S...where are the discrepancies?

If there is enough interest...I can do this.

Another option, of course, is to fundamentally change the spreadsheet and
make a separate FF&S1 version. I could, in theory, do this as well...but it
would take a lot longer. I have other projects that I am working on that I
would do before a pure TNE version (primarily becuase I'm lazy, and TNE is
my least favorite version. Thus its at the bottom of my list to support).

Please let me know...

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                         |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+    |
|       vi+ da+                                                        |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+      |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                             |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:56:24 -0700
From: Robert Biggar Iii <rwb@tc.fluke.com>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:23:32 -0700 Andy Akins wrote:


> I have had a request to add a feature to the spreadsheet, and I'm wondering
> how much demand there would be for it (and if it would be appropriate).
> 
> Someone has asked for a page that produces Brilliant Lances/Battle Riders
> stats, for TNE players. Since I have these games, I can convievably do this.

I and several others I know would love to have this available.
Rob B

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:59:39 -0500
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: cool techno-fact and piece of equipment

>I would therefore introduce a TL-12 item: "Adaptive Glasses" - lightweight
>eyeglasses that adapt their shape to compensate in real time for these
>distortions, improving vision by a factor of 2. Weight negligible, cost
>Cr 1000.
>
>At TL-14 these become "Adaptive Contact Lenses" - cost Cr 5000.
>
>For double the price of either, low-light or IR functions can be added.
>
>(Campaigns with agressive tech development could make each available 2 TL's
>earlier...)


Depending on your feelings about cyberware, you could have "Perfect Lenses"
for your eyes. I would make these a lower TL than Adaptive Glasses and
Contacts, since they don't have to be quite so dynamic -- just flexible
enough for your muscles to manipulate them for focus.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:11:58 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

Ethan Henry posted:
>
>> Ah, but the genetic codes for psionics are there...  You have got to
>> remember that the Zho want all of their nobles to be psionic...  So an
>> intendant to have a high psi-strength means that the children of that
>> person may have a better chance for psionic powers...
>
>Nope. Psi powers are not hereditary. It says so right in the Zho Alien
>module. Which makes me wonder...
>
>If we assume that there are two ways to become a Zho noble:
>
> - be the child of a noble, with or without psi powers
> - be elevated to noble status via hig psi strength
>
>then how come the whole Zhodani populace haven't become nobles
>over the centuries?

A desire to maintain the status quo. It's pretty obvious from the
character generation tables that Zhodani society is able to
artificially produce/boost psionic abilities. The existence of
the Prole social class is being maintained artificially by the
so-called Nobility.

Evidence of this is the fact that Proles with a PSI rating of 8
or less *cannot* receive psi training even when promoted to
officer rank. This is despite the fact that a number of rolls
on psionic talent tables result in "PSI +1". In the Consulate
Navy, a character can even be sent to Psionic School where they
simply roll 1d6 on the Psi Skills table to get a skill they
didn't get during childhood training, *including Special*. So
                                                 ^^^^^^^
it's very possible for a character to start with a PSI of, say,
6 and increase it to 15 in 6-7 terms, if the training limitation
was ignored.

Prole education opportunities are also artificially limited.
Once a Prole becomes skilled in one of a few select skills,
he/she is fairly limited by chargen rules to specializing
in that one skill.

Proles are simply non-psionic Zhodani protected by the psionic
nobility? Yeah, right. A gilded cage is still a cage.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:16:42 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...

Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> I have had a request to add a feature to the spreadsheet, and I'm wondering
> how much demand there would be for it (and if it would be appropriate).
> 
> Someone has asked for a page that produces Brilliant Lances/Battle Riders
> stats, for TNE players. Since I have these games, I can convievably do this.
> 
> The questions are:
> 
> a) Do a lot of you want this?
> b) Is it valid? I mean, my sheet is FF&S2, not FF&S. Thus I'm not sure if
> the statistics generated are valid for TNE games. To "Those of you who know
> stuff" how much did FF&S2 change from FF&S...where are the discrepancies?
> 
> If there is enough interest...I can do this.
> 
It's possible that the person requesting this feature simply wants to
have stats for a playable space combat game.  After all, the combat
rules in the basic T4 rulebook are not well-suited to actions involving
non-QSDS ships.

If that's the case, then an easier solution might be to get Bruce Alan
Macintosh's permission to post his "Military Combat System" rules on
your Web site.  This has several advantages:

1.  Your spreadsheet already supports MCS, with its CUSP worksheet;

2.  Bruce would be able to get more play-test feedback, since more
people would have the rules;

3.  It would save a _lot_ of time and effort;

4.  You wouldn't need to change your focus on supporting T4/FF&S2.

BTW, is there a shortcut to upgrading ship designs from previous
versions of your spreadsheet?  Most of my designs were done on version
2.6, and retyping the information (as a baseline) is a nuisance (though
not _nearly_ so much of one as pencil-and-paper ship designing would be!
:-P).

> Another option, of course, is to fundamentally change the spreadsheet and
> make a separate FF&S1 version. I could, in theory, do this as well...but it
> would take a lot longer. 

<<snip>>

If you were to do a pre-FF&S2 design spreadsheet, you'd probably have
more interest in a High Guard version (IMO).

> 
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Andrew Akins                                                         |
> | Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA  |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+    |
> |       vi+ da+                                                        |
> | Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+      |
> |       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                             |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:05:21 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaught@primary.net>
Subject: An innocent little question

I recently ran across a copy of the Traveller novel.
Nice workmanlike piece of science fiction.

A couple of questions came to mind while reading it 
and then the subsequent discussion with my traveller
group.

1.    It's Got Shields!. Has anyone on the 'list come up with
the mechanics that provide for shield technology that works
as simply as the novel contends?

2.     Is it (shield tech) canonically servicable? I know that this 
novel is tacitly approved by Marc. However, after looking 
over the extant info, I'm a bit at a loss to come up with shield
tech details.

Thanks

Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@primary.net
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:37:26 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: World Maps Available

After looking at some different Traveller World maps from various sources,
finding some minor errors in my earlier versions, and learning a useful technique,
I revised my world maps.

They're available in 2 sizes: 1024x768 and 800x640
Also available in a wide variety of formats:

.PCT   Macintosh PICT
.CDR  Corel Draw 7.0
.PDF   Adobe Portable Document
.BMP  Windows Bitmap
.CPT   Corel Photo-Paint 7.0
.GIF    Standard for web graphics
.MAC  Macintosh
.PCX   Painthbrush
.PNG   Portable Network Graphic
.PSD   Adobe Photoshop

They were created in CorelDraw and Photo-Paint 7.0.

I've put them on a web site.
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/travwrld.html

Freely download, print, copy, disseminate, etc.

Sorry, I forgot to note the size of the files.  The PDF is 295k.
All the rest are under 100k, most in the 25k-50k range,
so they shouldn't be unduly burdensome as a download.

Upcoming:
Subsector and Sector maps in various sizes.
The grids and basic layout are done, I just need to figure out what to do
for a legend (I didn't just want to copy the standard one for sector maps).
I found out that the graphic and copy shop next to my apartment building
can print up to 3' x 4' size formats, so I'm considering producing hardcopies
of sector (or multiple sector) posters, albeit not in this largest format, thats
a bit unruly.  Any interest in blank sector posters?  I will probably make
myself a Spinward Marches poster soon.  If there is enough interest,
should I actually get around to doing it, I could look into getting permission
from Mr. Miller to make them available.  But let me finish my blanks first. :-)


Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #796
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, September 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 797



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

An innocent little question
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...
re: Boarding Parties
Re: FF&S1 rockets
Re: Pocket Empires
Re: Big Buck PC's
Is anyone out there?
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Big Buck PC's
Just when I thought...
Re: Just when I thought...
(1) Re : low berth  (2) An innocent little question (longish)
Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)
Re: Deckplans
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:52:00 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: An innocent little question

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pat Connaughton wrote

>I recently ran across a copy of the Traveller novel.
>Nice workmanlike piece of science fiction.
>
>A couple of questions came to mind while reading it
>and then the subsequent discussion with my traveller
>group.
>
>1.    It's Got Shields!. Has anyone on the 'list come up with
>the mechanics that provide for shield technology that works
>as simply as the novel contends?
>
>2.     Is it (shield tech) canonically servicable? I know that this
>novel is tacitly approved by Marc. However, after looking
>over the extant info, I'm a bit at a loss to come up with shield
>tech details.

the shields appeared to be meson screens, the turret weapons were called
meson guns

the novel also appeared to be a later time period than T4

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:56:47 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet, a request...

> a) Do a lot of you want this?

Wouldn't hurt.  But it isn't absolutely necessary.  Annti Lahiten has a fine
TNE/FF&S spreadsheet that also produces T4 stats, though there's a disclaimer
that says T4 is the bottom of *his* priorites, so it might not be accurate.
I'm pretty sure he has FF&S 2 (since the latest "relic builder" is mostly
based off've FF&S 2 hull forms), which Annti prefers because he says he can
model airflows or something like that.
http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/

> b) Is it valid? I mean, my sheet is FF&S2, not FF&S. Thus I'm not sure if
> the statistics generated are valid for TNE games. To "Those of you who know
> stuff" how much did FF&S2 change from FF&S...where are the discrepancies?

Mmm... It wouldn't be true FF&S 1 valid if that's what u mean, but BL/BR stats
should be quite doable.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:05:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Boarding Parties

I accidentally deleted the response to my original post, so I'll try and
summarize the relevant bits.

On grav plates being pairs of plates instead of a single plate:

I wanted to limit the effects of artificial gravity - specifically, I wanted to
prevent the situation where a flip of a switch turns a corridor into a
5G bottomless pit. If you can put the "bottom" plate at the aft end of the
corridor, and the "top" plate at the fore end of the corridor, and thus
make a thirty or forty meter gravity field, owch! Worse owch if you
can make it 5 or 10 G's.

Since I wanted to limit how "long" the gravity field could be, I decided
on a single plate. This allows high-ceilinged compartments without
them having to be broken up by grav plates - it's just that near the
ceiling, the gravity effects will peter out. 

As for Inertial Compensators opposing forces instead of neutralizing
forces:

If inertial comp automatically puts a 6G "push" on everything to counter
a 6G "pull" from thrust or maneuver, then you have a system that can
pop 6G's of force onto anything in the ship, instantly and at will. 
It should be child's play to rework such a system so that it applies
that force where you want it to, instead of automatically in synch
with thrust/maneuver (/collision?). Say, upside the head of the guy
with the laser rifle. 

If inertial comp opposes forces, but only works on the entire ship at
once, you still have tech that can do the above - a maneuvering
ship will inflict differing moments of force on people/objects in 
different parts of the ship, so it must be able to individually track each
item in the ship and differentially compensate for each. If it can do that,
you should be able to tell it to differentially compensate Freddy's head
over there. *Whack!*

And if you have such a system, why not make it portable? Such 
a peoplewhacker could come in handy.

I defined it as a neutralizer, much like antigrav neutralizes gravity
or jumpspace neutralizes distance. (Well, OK, Jumpspace is more
complex than that, but the level of natural law violation is similar.)
Nothing in the ship is affected by any moments of force from the outside,
so it works without any fine-tuning or high-gain internal sensors.

As for the entertaining example of killing an enemy boarding party
with a swimming pool:

All pressure-tight hatches IMTU will not open to a high pressure
differential - whether it's vacuum on the other side or deep water.
Depending on the design of the door, it will either take wrecking the
sensors or wrecking the door to make it open (some doors are
mechanically unable to open to a high pressure differential).

You can open such a door, but you'll have to fix it afterwards - unless
you deliberately designed the door to be openable to vacuum
or deep ocean, say as a deathtrap. I don't see many ships having
deathtraps as part of the design, though we can of course leave these
for intrepid PC's to cobble together....

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:52:51 PDT
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S1 rockets

The early rocket design sequence in FFS1 is most definitely broken.  For 
some fixes and other good info, go to Joe Hecks site

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller

Lots of good stuff in his archives and house rules

Jim

- ----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:50:05 +0800 (WST)
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FF&S1 rockets
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

I tried designing some missiles for use against starships, using the
starship design rules around TL5-8.  ( A sort of long range
planetary defence missile) Without using fusion rockets or
better I could hardly get them into orbit.   Without CG it waas truly
hopeless.  Saturn Vs do not even get off the ground.  This seems to be
both a function of the enormous fuel consumptions of these rockes, and
also because gravity does not drop off with the square of
distance.  It is impossible to produce one G for one hour so far
as I can tell.  Am I completely confusede about this?

Colin




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:01:38 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires

>Is the sample family tree completely stuffed up or am I missing something?
As the author of that section I can definitively say the sample is
completely stuffed up. It was fine when I sent it on to Andy but somewhere
between him and the printer it got mangled. The original template of the
form is still up on "http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/tree.gif". It is
empty, though.
Hazel the Elder is, in fact, the grandfather of Hazel the younger and not
the other way around. I think if you just invert the whole table it almost
makes sense, but there is some other sort of lateral screw-up as well. I'll
see if I can have a look tonight.
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:06:22 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Big Buck PC's

> This type of campaign does require a fair amount of work for the 
> referee, but I have come up with random event charts for the world, 
> subsector and sector as well as a fair system of determining 
> financial gains/losses on a monthly or yearly basis.  By reducing the 

Hmm... care to post them?  Sounds very interesting.

> high finance to a few die rolls once in a while, it leaves us free to 
> concentrate on the role playing instead of where the last credit 
> goes.  Another option here is for the PC's to have good 
> accountants/lawyers/agents on the payroll to handle all the details 
> and the referee can just inform them of results periodically.  Of 

Sounds like a fun campaign.  Much like AD&Ds Birthright. 

> course this leaves open all kinds of hooks too, perhaps that 
> accountant is doing double entry books or the agent works for a 
> competing group as well.

Exactly.  Tell us more.  I'm interested.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:09:49 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?

Since I haven't recieved a single message from the TML today, and since my
ISP switched mail software yesterday, I'm sending this to find out if the
list went down, or is just inactive, or to see if I'm just not receiving.
I this shows up, I'm sorry for the wateof bandwith, but please reply to my
adress below, so I can have it corrected.

Thanks,

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

ps. I really hope this isn't ANOTHER Templar plot! They've become so
annoying since I found those files on the ture RoM tech level, and designs
for near-C rocks!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:08:43 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

who do I get this from

- -----Original Message-----
From: chauncey smith <Csmith@icdc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: September 2, 1998 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: HIWG CD


>WOW is Right,.,,, it's pack with stuff that's more then kkewl....
>spreadsheets are worth the CD....
>
>and the pics are good for webpages and gameing... I'm going to make a
>traveller theme for my desktop.. this should rock
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 12:27 AM
>Subject: HIWG CD
>
>
>>My CD arrived yesterday.  One word suffices to describe it:  WOW!
>>
>>
>>
>>Bill Rutherford
>>worj@topgun.cinecom.com
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:15:28 -0700
From: Robert Biggar Iii <rwb@tc.fluke.com>
Subject: Re: Big Buck PC's

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:06:22 -0700 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:06:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: Big Buck PC's
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> 
> > This type of campaign does require a fair amount of work for the 
> > referee, but I have come up with random event charts for the world, 
> > subsector and sector as well as a fair system of determining 
> > financial gains/losses on a monthly or yearly basis.  By reducing 
the 
> 
> Hmm... care to post them?  Sounds very interesting.

Sure, as soon as I get a chance to type them up (within a week or 
so), also some are fairly specific to my campaign but obviously they 
could be amended.

> > high finance to a few die rolls once in a while, it leaves us 
free to 
> > concentrate on the role playing instead of where the last credit 
> > goes.  Another option here is for the PC's to have good 
> > accountants/lawyers/agents on the payroll to handle all the 
details 
> > and the referee can just inform them of results periodically.  Of 
> 
> Sounds like a fun campaign.  Much like AD&Ds Birthright. 
> 
> > course this leaves open all kinds of hooks too, perhaps that 
> > accountant is doing double entry books or the agent works for a 
> > competing group as well.
> 
> Exactly.  Tell us more.  I'm interested.  

Well currently there are two double agents from a rival corp in the 
next subsector over that hired on as knowledgeable researchers who 
are actually in the process of stealing the PC corps stutterwarp 
research (nothing like a free lunch) as well as passing sensitive 
trade info back to the people they REALLY work for.  One black ops 
spy was caught by the PCs after rigging a jump engine failure on a 
liner carrying the lead council member from their planet to the 
United Worlds (the pocket empire) yearly military council.  The 
Regency is hotly involved with the United Worlds about incorporating 
them into the fold before they get too large to deal with 
diplomatically.
Anyway, i could go on and on with the plot twists and counter plots, 
but this level of play can be highly rewarding when the PCs are free 
to engage in top level politics or uplift missions etc without having 
to worry about where the next cred or ship payment is coming from.  
This does take mature players however, our group has been together 
for 6+ years and this is the first campaign of the type we have 
undertaken.  It has run for about a year now and does not show any 
signs of slowing down as the stakes get bigger and plot threads from 
months ago return and resolve.  It does take a lot of commitment on 
the referees part as you are not dealing with a specific mission most 
times, but trying to coordinate events on a world/subsector/sector 
basis.
I will post my event and finance charts soon.
Rob B

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 20:04:55 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Just when I thought...

Just when I thought role-playing was a dying hobby (reference the
current flux of companies falling by the wayside), I see some life
pumped back into my favorite past time.

I went to the game store today, and low and behold, there was a brand
new, beautiful, hardbound, full-color-slick-throughout, core rule book
for the new Star Trek:  The Next Generation role playing game.

It's an awsome looking book, and it puts many of the other game
companies' products to shame.  It's on the same level of expertise as
the Star Wars RPG Revised & Expanded book.  The Star Trek game looks
great.

It is published by Paramount, in association with another game company,
and I noticed in the back of the book that they're releasing a Deep
Space Nine RPG in February, a Star Trek (classic) game next August, and
a Voyager game after that.

All of it looks very top notch.

I'm impressed.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 03:57:48 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Just when I thought...

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

[snip]

> I went to the game store today, and low and behold, there was a brand
> new, beautiful, hardbound, full-color-slick-throughout, core rule book
> for the new Star Trek:  The Next Generation role playing game.
>
> It's an awsome looking book, and it puts many of the other game
> companies' products to shame.  It's on the same level of expertise as
> the Star Wars RPG Revised & Expanded book.  The Star Trek game looks
> great.

[snip]

> All of it looks very top notch.
>
> I'm impressed.
>
> Kenneth.
>

Don't be fooled by glossy magazine paper (that you know will rip after the
third reading) and the very expensive photographs throughout the book.
Maybe its a great game, but its look turns me off as too glossy and
overpriced.  Especially since most of the cash price has to go to those
photographs and glossy pages with Okuda-grams and _not_ to the game
designers.  Alternity "looks" pretty good, but IMHO, its a huge
Traveller/Gurps ripoff, with overly complex game mechanics, and just a
general lack of original character (which is too bad, as I used to talk
occasionally with its designers and expected something of a much higher
overall quality).

Just by way of comparison, The Morrow Project looks like something made
with a production budget of $2.00, but actually has some very interesting
elements.  how many games have in their core rules radioation sickness
rules?  (ok, a couple, but you get my point).

I'd be very much interested in your analysis after playing it for a few
weeks.
I can't bring myself to purchase it yet.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:02:02 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <Robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: (1) Re : low berth  (2) An innocent little question (longish)

Mike Schade wrote :-

>I believe low berth brings back the whole concept of steerage.

(disaster imagery - fair enough : corpsicles.)

>IMTU, zero point energy and the Alcubrierre warp metric replace the jump drive >as the star drive. I just have real thrusters. The time doesn't change, just no jump >space to worry about.

Does this mean that all journeys with the warp drive take no time, or there is no relativistic time dilatation ? Can any ship travel six parsecs in about a week (say) ?
I take it 'real thrusters' are reaction drives. Fair enough, now that you don't need all the LH2 for the jump drive, you can run your HePlaR for days, and have more cargo/whatever space...
It might make a useful design variant.

Low berth is a useful plot device. It offers cheap (albeit a little risky) interstellar travel, and one-way time travel. Major trauma victims can be put into stasis pending definitive treatment (need resuscitation before being put into cold sleep).
'Fast berthing' is something that I don't like the concept of. In our society, it wouldn't pass any ethics committee or pharmaceutical evaluation committee unless it was strictly earmarked for theatre or ICU use on the anaesthetised....

Pat Connaughton wrote :-

>1. It's Got Shields!. Has anyone on the 'list come up with the mechanics that >provide for shield technology that works as simply as the novel contends ?
>2. Is it (shield tech) canonically serviceable?

Depends on your edition of Traveller :- (I haven't read the book...)
Prior to T4 (rest in pieces), I believe the options were as follows :-
i. Electrostatic shielding :- objects that broach a low-voltage static field cause an accumulator bank to discharge a high-voltage pulse into the offending bomb, bullet or plasma bolt... ; (FF&S1, TL 9+)

ii. Sand casters :- prismatic aerosol designed to sacrificially absorb laser wavelengths. On a smaller scale, this is available in spray cans for personnel (Little Black Book 4 : Mercenary) ;

iii. Force Fields :- black and white globes. Any object intersecting the globe moving from outside to inside has its (kinetic) energy drained. The resulting cryogenic lump usually shatters (metals) or impacts uselessly on the protected object's hide.
Atmospheric use is problematic. You can't see out of a black globe (unless you strobe it).
The drained energy is accumulated in a capacitor bank in the protected volume.
White globes are really nifty. You can see and fire out, but the bad guys can't shoot at you. This is really high tech (TL 20+).

iv. Others : nuclear dampers, meson screens, proton screens for antimatter missiles (the last at TL 19+ in MegaTraveller).

v. In T4, magnetic shielding is mentioned in the Central Supply Catalog vehicle design section. This is similar to electrostatic shielding, but a lattice built in to the hull generates an intense magnetic field, which deflects any charged or magnetic (ferro-, para- and dia-) particle that intersects it. TL 12+
This makes a perfect radiation shield for space travellers. Hull maintenance becomes important, but EVAs become hazardous. (?MR scanner+ field strengths [1-2 Tesla - Earth's field roughly 10^(-7) Tesla!] over hull - metallic implants get moved around your body, electronics don't work....)
I'd turn it off on re-entry.
Oxygen is paramagnetic, so use in an atmosphere could be a problem.

Good threads.

Robert O'Connor
Medico and Gaming Enthusiast

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 01:43:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Burning down the House (was Re: Stop the off-topic hate)

>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
...
>So has anyone else noticed that prior to his conquest of Egypt a certain
>French Emperor by the initials NB was doing somewhat better at the
>conquering the world game then he did after he conquered Egypt. 
>Conincidence?  You be the judge....

  Nice try, "Mr. Newman", if that's your real name. However, at the time
of his adventures in Egypt, the Corsican was supposedly serving the
Directory, as neither his own primacy nor the Empire had yet been established.

  After his failure and return to France, he succeeded to the pinnacle of
power under a new constitution that established...

  ...the "Consulate".

  Coincidence?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:38:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:08:03 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Oh yeah, for the folks worried about landing legs on soft ground
>> causing a ship to topple? I suggest re-reading the description of
>> starport types. Why do you suppose that type E is described as
>> "essentially a marked spot of BEDROCK"? Maybe to avoid exactly that
>> problem? 
>
> And the Chevy Corvette was engineered to drive on asphalt or concrete only,
> yet this hasn't stopped people from driving them on gravel or even dirt
> roads.

Chevies don't have the sort of ground pressure a starship's landing
gear does.

Ships mass a *lot* more than anything we are used to dealing with
*except* ships and mining equipment. 

Even a measly 100 ton scout in the standard layout is in a world of
trouble if one of the "wheels" sinks. The stresses are not going to be
good for the hull, and the wheel assembly may well break. 

Figure the mass of the ship, divide by three (for the three
"supports"), then figure the contact area of each one. Divide the
*weight* (mass times gravity) by the contact area and you get the load
pressure. And it's rather more than anything *but* rock or a prepared
surface can handle.

Even an "airplane" layout has got *way* too much weight on a landing
leg/skid/wheel to avoid *serious* damage if one sinks. The torsion
(twisting) loads generated aren't something ships would be designed to
handle. They'd be in different directions (and at different *points*)
than the loads encountered when manuevering.

BTW, the loads on the landing gear *don't* depend on the orientation of
the ship. Only the mass, and the area of the actual contact surfaces. 

> Leonard, are you saying that ships in your TU *never* land away from a
> starport? ;)

I'm saying that starships don't land without checking how solid the
"ground" is anymore than ships enter an unknown harbor without checking
the depth soundings. In both cases, there results of being wrong mean
you are *stuck*.

Also, right *now* we've got radar than can pentrate ground for a ways,
and return the profile of the rock underneath. Between that and using a
one of the ship's "small craft" to survey a landing site *before*
bringing down the ship, the "unexpected soft ground" bit is only going
to happen in the case where you had to make an emergency landing
without time to pick and choose. And that'd be like the cause of a
seagoing ship having to try to beach itself rather than sink. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:07:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

In mail you write:

> Here's a couple of questions for those of you who are knowledgable about
> planetology.
>
> First question: Is it possible for the taint of a standard, tainted
> atmosphere to be carbondioxide? Remember, a standard atmosphere by
> definition has enough oxygen for a human to survive breathing it and
> a taint can, again by definition, be eliminated by the use of a filter
> mask. So
>
> 1)      would high CO2 levels interfere with breathing if there were enough
>         oxygen too? If, for example, you had the standard percentage of
>         oxygen, but more CO2 and less nitrogen?

Yes. Too much CO2 causes problems. Partly because your body uses the
CO2 level rather than the 02 level to decide when you need to take a
breath. So you'd start panting even though you *really* don't need to
breathe that fast. 

So you can suffer from hyperventilation, and at higher levels, you
start having problems with acidosis (the extra CO2 in the bloodstream
makes your blood too acid). And at some point, the CO2 in your blood
will have trouble leaving to get swapped for oxygen.

> 2)      can CO2 be filtered out by a simple filter mask?

More or less. Usually it's filtered thru something like lithium or
calcium hydroxide, which by absorbing it turns to the carbonate. 

> Second question: Is it possible for an otherwise standard oxy-nitrogen
> atmosphere to have a naturally occurring carbonmonoxide taint? I'm
> thinking about Sacnoth which has a high enough CO content to kill the
> average unprotected man in about 7 days. how big a taint would that be?
> Could it be the result of natural processes? Could it be the result of
> industrial pollution?

Carbon monoxide doesn't have to be very high at all to be a problem.
You see, what it does is bind to hemoglobin in much the same way that
CO2 or O2 do. The problem is that it binds *too* well. Once a CO
molecule has bound to a hemoglobin molecule, it doesn't let go. So that
molecule quits being involved in transfering O2 to your Cells and CO2
from them.

So the useless hemoglobin sticks around taking the place of hemoglobin
that could be doing something. And it stays until the red blood cell in
question gets recycled by your body (they last several days as I
recall). 

The effects are as if there was less oxygen in the air. At a quite low
concentration, you start acting slow & stupid. As the concentration
rises, your reflexes get worse and you get slower and dumber. Finally
you pass out and die.

Having natural concentrations that high isn't likely, as CO isn't long
term stable in the presence of oxygen (it gets convert to CO2). And if
there are life forms, they'll be several (probably bacteria)
cheerfully converting it to CO2 even faster, and using the energy
gained to run their life processes.

So as a natural taint, it'd either be short lived. But as an industrial
one, it could hang around longer, because it'd be getting produced in
such large quantities. Though then you have to justify *why* they are
letting it get produced. Any process producing CO is *not* running
properly. It's a product of incomplete combustion, anmd thus, in any
*industrial* process, it's a big loss of energy. 

Cars produce it only because the Internal combustion engine makes such
lousy use of fuel.

BTW, a protective mask for CO would contain some sort of catalyst which
would encourage it to react with the oxygen in the atmosphere and
convert to CO2.

Check with a your local industrial safety agencies, and they should
have literature giving the safe exposure levels for a *lot* of gases,
including CO2 and CO. 

You might also try a web search for "material safety data sheets" these
are required in the US for industrial use of just about *anything* and
give lots of useful info. I'm pretty sure that there are web sites with
them available for downloading. And the various chemicals should give
refs lots of nasty ideas.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:34:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

In mail you write:

> On a geochemical level, would say its not clear.  There is
> no hard and fast process that makes this impossible. However,
> oxygen is produced from carbon dioxide.  If you have plants
> doing this, one might guess they would keep pulling down the
> CO2 levels, rather than leaving them at some high level.

Remember, plants convert CO2 to sugars. Some they burn for enery,
returning the CO2 to the atmosphere. The rest winds up as cellulose (ie
biomass). High CO2 levels will encourage plant growth, but they won't
reduce it all that fast. And when the plant dies, decay will turn much
of the cellolose into CO2 and the rest into biomass in the deacy
organisms. And when *they* die, they cycle repeats.

The amount of carbon is *constant*. The carbon cycle on a planet has
CO2 in the atmosphere, carbonate ions in the ocean, and carbonate rocks
on or near the surface. When subducted, the rocks release the CO2,
which returns to the atmosphere and oceans via volcanic activity.

When you add life, you get plants turning CO2 into biomass. And
microrganisms turning carbonate ions into calcium carbonate shells
(ditto for animals like clams and coral). That increases the formation
of limestone, which eventually gets subducted. And biomass recycles
carbon, except when conditions lead to the formation of coal (and
possibly oil[1]) deposits. Those take longer to recycle.

So for example, it's virtually *certain* that Earth had a *much* higher
CO2 level in the atmosphere before the big coal deposits were laid down.

> The TLV is 25 ppm.

What's TLV? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 05:06:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

In mail you write:

> Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL.  Seawater is a bit more boyant. A scount
> weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.

And when on a solid surface, each "leg" would be supporting 228 tons.
The apparent contact area looks to be less than a square meter. But
let's say it is.

228 tons * 9.8 m/s^2 = 2234.4 kN

So we have a ground pressure of 2234.4 kN/m^2.

You get the same load by putting 22.8 kg on a 1cm square support.
Or by putting about 324 pounds on a one inch square support. That's
gonna sink in most ground...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 05:23:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: deckplans

In mail you write:

> Following is my view on why the existence of the 400 DT subsidized merchant
> (ie: Fat Trader) can and should exist in any Traveller campaign:
>
> 1) cargo doesn't load much easier than on this ship
> 2) the ship has an airframe (ie: wings), just like the shuttle (another
>    famous parallel vessel design), allowing it to maneuver easier in an
>    atmosphere

I've mentioned the Shuttle elsewhere, let's just say that it lands
parallel because at the time we couldn't build it any other way. And it
was originally intended to *take off* horizontally!.

We have since *built and flown* designs that take off *and land*
vertically. 

> 3) the vessel can still land with inoperable drives

It's got the same problem the Shuttle does. Without power, that hull
will glide like a brick. It won't handle at all like it does under
power. And you'll get one and only one chance to land.

Also, lifting body designs *don't* need even as much wing as the
Shuttle has. It was just easier. I expect that mercants would use true
lifting bodies more simply because there's less waste space. Also, you
*want* such designs to be tail heavy, as it makes trimming them for
glide easier. 

I've got an old model rocket that uses a lifting body design. It's a
sort of rounded triangle cross-section (imagine the rotor from a
Wankel engine, with the corners rounded off). It glides nicely, and
would have a *lot* less wasted space than a winged design.

> 4) the vessel is very stable while on the ground
> 5) leaving it "as is" does not invalidate canon IMTU
>
> Now Richard (or another pro-perpendicular individual) can come up with an
> entirely different ship layout that would hold true for all of the above
> (except the last one), but it would *not* invalidate the existence of the
> canonical Fat Trader.

The best shape for a VTVL ship is a wide cone with a rounded nose and
base (take a cone and chop it off a third of the way from the top and
stick a hemisphere there).

And if you build it with allowances for such, it could make an
unpowered water landing. It'd "splash down" much like an early space
capsule. Heck, if parachute materials are up to it, it might even be
able to make a landing on solid ground the way the Russian capsules
did. The "emergency re-entry shielding" would even double as ablative
armor on the stern. Great for when you are trying to run away from an
attacker. :-)

For that matter, give it the "rounded triangle" cross section, and in
an emergency, everybody straps in, and you glide the damn thing until
you are low and slow enough to set it down on its tail. Sure, any loose
gear will slide all over the place. But the cargo should be tied down
well enough to handle it anyway (except for "this end up" stuff :-)

BTW, I consider the needle design to be a lousy choice for *anything*
except a ship built around a *big* spinal mount. It's just too
susceptible to "bending" stresses.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #797
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, September 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 798



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1) Apology
Re: Deckplans
Re: Psionic societies
Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?
Re: GURPS TNS
Deckplans: Small Craft (longish)
Striker II errata
Large Scale Miniature Battles
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Just when I thought...
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: 1) Apology
Re: FF&S1 rockets
Re: Large Scale Miniature Battles
Re: Starship deck orientation
RE: Large Scale Miniature Battles
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Just when I thought...
Re: Just when I thought...
Boarding parties

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 05:54:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

In mail you write:

> And that's ALL we can do about it right now, except try and make as much
> money as possible.
>
> To be honest, Alvin, given the way Eris has run the campaign so far, I
> really didn't expect to waltz in, pick up the access codes to the Mae
> Lee, flip the big red switch and gallivant off into the unknown.
>
> I do have fears that when we get to Mark, we'll be drivven waaaaaay off
> to the edge of the starport, out with the weeds and spares, and be told
> that "That pile over there is the Mae Lee...she's all yours, storage
> fees commence now."

No, no, they take you to the highport, and shuttle you over to the
parking orbit they stick all that stuff in. "That hunk of junk is
yours...."

Parking the stuff in orbit minimizes a lot of types of wear. Also, why
land it when you'll only have to haul it (or the parts from it, if you
are stripping it) back into orbit. 

Also, it may have been parked in orbit because the hull integrity
wasn't up to a landing. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:58:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

In mail you write:

>> IMO airplane deck configurations are good for airplanes, not spaceships.
>> The design constraints of the two are very different. Designing a spaceship
>> like an airplane is as sensible as designing one like an automobile.
>
> The shuttle is designed like an airplane...

That's because it has to *glide* to land. Note that the designs for
craft intended to land under power (such as the DC-X) *don't* resemble
airplanes. They take off *and* land vertically. 

And frankly, the reasons that a vertical take-off horizontal landing
design got chosen for the Shuttle replacement is most a case of folks
wanting to stick with what they know, and a lot of politics.

>> >Bigger starships must need
>> >a reason for not using a skyscraper design. A few possibilities:
>> >
>> >Spinal mount access: The entire ship is built with access and
>> >maintenance of the spinal mount in mind. Long rooms parallell each
>> >section of the spinal mount, and it was found to be less complex to
>> >have one gravity field orientation (paralell to the spinal mount).

But that makes some of the accesses on the "top" or "bottom", which
makes working on them a lot harder than simply being able to walk all
around the segment. I'd say that it's *easier* to work on a spinal
mount that runs *through* decks instead of *along* them. After all, the
way they work, the active components are "rings" around the shaft.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:55:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Psionic societies

In mail you write:

>> Ah, but the genetic codes for psionics are there...  You have got to
>> remember that the Zho want all of their nobles to be psionic...  So an
>> intendant to have a high psi-strength means that the children of that
>> person may have a better chance for psionic powers...
>
> Nope. Psi powers are not hereditary. It says so right in the Zho Alien
> module.

Which is kinda ridiculous. It's got to have *some* sort of genetic
component...

> Which makes me wonder...
>
> If we assume that there are two ways to become a Zho noble:
>
>  - be the child of a noble, with or without psi powers
>  - be elevated to noble status via hig psi strength
>
> then how come the whole Zhodani populace haven't become nobles
> over the centuries?

Because if their nobility is anything like Earth's only *one* of the
children will get the title. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 05:58:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Dimming in the 20th Century?

In mail you write:

> I've just enjoyed a week in Malta soaking up the sun, but the flights at
> the start and end of the journey set me thinking....
>
> Just before we landed all lights in the cabin were dimmed or shut off, and
> the same happen before take off on the way home, and landing back at
> Manchester. I'm not a frequent flyer (the last time I flew before this was
> in an old 737 10 years ago) and this was my first experience of night
> landings and approaches. Is this common? If so, I suppose we have a 20th
> Century jump dimming...
>
> Anyone know why the regulation is there?

Ok, on a lot of planes much of the internal power comes from an
"auxiliary power unit" (basicly a small jet turbine hooked up to a
generator) somewhere in the fuselage.

I can see them shutting that down to reduce the fire hazard from and
accident during landing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:49:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GURPS TNS

In mail you write:

> Andy Long wrote:
>> 
>> The latest entry from the pen of Loren Wiseman has stirred the pot...
>> (and I'm mixing metaphors, I know, so sue me..)
>> 
>> go to http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html, and see the
>> latest instalment. DID Dulinor die? If he didn't then where is he? If he
>> wasn't the target, then who was? Watch out for more news, same bat-time,
>> same bat-channel (Ooops!)
>
> My guess? IF he's alive, he's haulin' a** for somewhere out of reach of INI.
> Something blew his plot, most likely daddy's little girl. His brother the
> Admiral, under ummm, questioning [1], ratted out everyone else, which is why
> he was allowed to resign and go back to the family farm to recuperate, rather
> than die of a sudden heart attack.
>
> My bet's still on Dulinor being on the ship, though. A maybe dead, maybe not
> leader of a glorious revolution is generally much more effective never coming
> back, since in glorious martyrdom to the cause they don't have all of those
> nasty human failings that show up later.

I agree. If he was trying to fake his death, then it wouldn't have been
*that* hard to have enough of the right sort of DNA onboard the craft
when it blew (blood, plus some cloned organs). After all, he wouldn't
*want* there to be any doubt that they "gotten" him. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:26:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Deckplans: Small Craft (longish)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >Bigger starships must need
>> >a reason for not using a skyscraper design. A few possibilities:
>> >
>> >Spinal mount access: The entire ship is built with access and
>> >maintenance of the spinal mount in mind. Long rooms parallell each
>> >section of the spinal mount, and it was found to be less complex to
>> >have one gravity field orientation (paralell to the spinal mount).

But that makes some of the accesses on the "top" or "bottom", which
makes working on them a lot harder than simply being able to walk all
around the segment. I'd say that it's *easier* to work on a spinal
mount that runs *through* decks instead of *along* them. After all, the
way they work, the active components are "rings" around the shaft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was picturing working segments that took up more than 3-6 meter
segments of the spinal mount's length - situations where it was easier
to work on twenty meters or more of the spinal mount at once. Sure, 
you'd have catwalks taking you up the sides of the spinal mount,
but the room you're working in doesn't have to be a ship-long pit.

I see most large spinal-mount ships as being better built as skyscraper
designs, I'm just trying to explain the _Sylea_ class battleship.
As pictured in CT _Library Data A-M_, she appears to be built with
airplane-style deck configurations.

Here's an idea: You get intertial comp and contragrav at TL-8 to TL9.
How much later do you get the ability to build 100,000dtn ships?
(At work, don't have my CT High Guard with me - I think TL12)
Contragrav and intertial comp were, perhaps, such mature and
dependable technologies by the time 100,000tn ships were built
that it really didn't matter what orientation they used?

Thought of a reason for airplane-style decks on a midsize ship:
loading/unloading of small craft. Most small craft use airplane-style
decks, they land like airplanes. Since these small craft have significant
length, it's difficult to dock them oriented differently than the thrust axis
of the mother ship (for medium-sized mother ships). There would also
be maneuver problems - when the small craft has to catch up to you,
then maneuver perpendicular to direction of travel? Docking paralell to 
direction of travel sounds less complex to me, but I'm no orbital mechanic.

Dock them oriented paralell to thrust, now open the cargo bay/passenger 
compartment on the small craft. Let's see the difference mother ship deck 
orientation makes:

If you have decks on the mother ship perpendicular to thrust, you're faced
with loading a high, narrow cargo bay. You have to reorient the passengers'
"up" 90 degrees when they board (annoying/disconcerting for people
who just left a planet, if they're not professional spacers). The hangar bay
takes up multiple decks, meaning that multiple decks have the 
integrity risk of having a compartment regularly exposed to vacuum
on that deck - you'd rather have such a hangar bay limited to one
deck, I think it would be safer and more secure.

If the decks on the mother ship are paralell to thrust, loading and
unloading cargo and passengers from a small craft is trivial - open
the cargo door, the cargo is much more accessible. 

The _Broadsword_ merc cruiser uses perp-to-thrust decks and
paralell-to-thrust docking for the cutters. Works, but you get the
pleasure of having to combat-check and load the ATV's in either
zero-G or while it's sitting on it's tail - neither one a real good choice.

_Azhanti High Lightning_ has all craft (Fuel Shuttles, Fighters,
Cutters) sitting on their tails with decks 90 degrees from the ship
decks - I don't even see how any cargo is loaded on the cutters,
they must load all cargo in zero-G from the cargo deck transfer locks.
An extra layer of complexity, but the boat deck on AHL seems pretty
well secured - a good tradeoff, I suppose for a combat ship.

Btw, speaking of the AHL - someone mentioned how hard it was to
move 500 troops the length of the hull with those dinky elevators,
how much easier it would be to move them through bow-to-stern
corridors. AHL may have those, if you're willing to move your troops
through zero-G vacuum: the spinal mount tube and fighter tubes.
Access is a little limited, but in a "repel boarders" situation you're
probably not using either of them anyway.

Invading troops might use them as well...well, maybe not. The defenders
might not be able to fire the spinal mount, but they might be able
to turn it on. That might be bad for a commando team trying to sneak up
the shaft....

As for elevators, check out the deckplans for Enterprise-D from
Star Trek NextGen. It nicely details ideas for turbolift shafts on a big
ship - how the turbolift system is really like a subway system, with
side tracks and more than one car per track. There are even holding
areas for spare cars, and a "pass through" link so the turbolift
system on Enterprise-D can become linked to the turbolift system
of a starbase - take one car directly from your engineering station to
that nice dining hall on spacedock when you're in port.

Ideas like these, especially multiple elevators per shaft, can really
speed up people moving through big skyscraper-style ships.

Of course, the system is presented in deck plans for a ship with
an airplane-style deck plan.... <g>

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:04:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: eackerma@vt.edu (Eric Ackermann)
Subject: Striker II errata

HI,

I am considering running some miniature battles using Striker II, and was
wondering if there were ever any errata sheet(s) published for it. So far I
haven't seen the need for one, but thought I'd ask anyway.

Thanks.

Eric Ackermann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: eackerma@vt.edu (Eric Ackermann)
Subject: Large Scale Miniature Battles

Anyone have any suggestions for rules for large SF actions using 25mm
miniatures? I have Striker II, but was looking for something that has each
base as a squad or platoon (e.g., as Command Decision III does for WWII).
Preferrably useable with the Traveller Universe, but not required.

Thanks!

Eric Ackermann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:53:09 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL.  Seawater is a bit more boyant. A scount
> > weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.
>
> And when on a solid surface, each "leg" would be supporting 228 tons.
> The apparent contact area looks to be less than a square meter. But
> let's say it is.
>
> 228 tons * 9.8 m/s^2 = 2234.4 kN
>
> So we have a ground pressure of 2234.4 kN/m^2.
>
> You get the same load by putting 22.8 kg on a 1cm square support.
> Or by putting about 324 pounds on a one inch square support. That's
> gonna sink in most ground...

I don't have my book handy but FFS mentioned that the surface area requirements
for contragrav lifters (I think) included landing skids.  That should give you a
good number to figure out surface area on landing gear.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:17:55 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Just when I thought...

steve daniels wrote:

> Don't be fooled by glossy magazine paper (that you know will rip after the
> third reading) and the very expensive photographs throughout the book.

Well, I haven't read the book or studied the game mechanics (as most people
who know me on this list will attest are very important to me), so I can't
comment on the ST:TNG game rules.

But...I'm still interested in the book.  From what I saw, it was very well
designed, and it looks as if a lot of time and effort went into content as
well as presentation.

Just because a book looks great doesn't mean that it's automatically going to
have a great game system (and the opposite is true as well).

My comment is that it is obviously a slick, packaged deal aimed at selling
some copies--keeping this dying hobby alive.  I took that as a heartbeat in an
obviously flat-lined industry.

It is a good sign, and I'm happy to see it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:39:45 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Sorry about the late post, but I had to catch up on several days of
digests. I promise no new flames about perpendicular deck orientations. In
fact, in this episode, I actually agree with several of the Parallel Deck
Crowd.

All I can say to the multiple assertions that perpendicular needle
configurations will topple in a breeze/earthquake/shifting cargo/unstable
ground/without being held down is that IMTU and, to the best of my
knowledge, in the real world this simply is not true. If you can provide
some counterevidence please email me privately. James, you should go over
to West Georgia in downtown Vancouver and take a look at the West Coast
Transmission building. That thing is earthquake-safe, I kid you not.

>Saying that nothing in canon depends on parallel-oriented decks is in
>itself, preposterous.  You would invalidate any and all canonical deckplans
>and/or adventures that already exist.  That's a pretty big "nothing".

This is true. By "nothing in canon depends..." I meant that they could just
as easily have been designed differently from the start. I don't suggest
rewriting all the existing deck plans. My intention was to correct what I
felt were false statements about the effects of deck orientation, and try
to convince some of the referees and ISBA designers to use a perpendicular
orientation.

>  I use the number 2 as a minimum, since elevators and vertical ladders do
>  not allow people to pass by one another.  You must wait for the elevator
>  to be free or the ladder to be clear before you can use it, while passing
>  in a 1.5m wide hallway is much easier.

This is a valid point for a large ship with any kind of deck orientation.
IMTU "elevators" are independently maneuverable cars that travel in
evacuated tubes, the way I had envisioned Star Trek's turbolifts worked
until TNG scotched that idea. In any case, paired shafts and/or
interchanges are necessary to allow cars moving in opposite directions to
pass each other. The same principle can be used to move horizontally.

Another possible technology is an "escaladder", like a vertical escalator.
An infinite belt of platforms moves up one side and down the other. The
platforms slide up on the belt when approaching a floor and down when
leaving it, so passengers have a longer time to enter ot leave a platform.
I am not a fan of the zero G vertical shafts some times seen in SF.

The detail in the AHL plans is insufficient to determine the layout of
ladders, but IMHO even a gymnast would find it difficult to travel that far
on ladders. Building codes in the IN must be pretty lax.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:51:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> No, no, they take you to the highport, and shuttle you over to the
> parking orbit they stick all that stuff in. "That hunk of junk is
> yours...."
> 
> Parking the stuff in orbit minimizes a lot of types of wear. Also, why
> land it when you'll only have to haul it (or the parts from it, if you
> are stripping it) back into orbit.
> 
> Also, it may have been parked in orbit because the hull integrity
> wasn't up to a landing. :-)
>

WOULD y'all PLEASE stop giving Eris ideas!!! He does _quite_ well enough
on his own, thankyewverymuch!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:29:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FF&S1 rockets

>It is impossible to produce one G for one hour so far
>as I can tell.  Am I completely confusede about this?

As others have noted, there were problems with FFS1's rocket rules:

(1) Fuel consumptions are too low
(2) Thrust-to-weight is also too low (these kind of cancel out)
(3) Delta-V is figured out in somewhat the wrong way. (The "break the fuel
up into 10% chunks) is sort of tolerable, but one should really use the
log(mass fraction) formula you can find on 
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller
way back in his archives
(3) All the nonsense about using 1G of thrust to cancel out gravity is 
basically wrong (rockets need to accelerate upwards initially, but real
trajectories are much more complicated and efficient than using 1G to "hover"
while the remaining Gs push you forward
(3) The G-hours to orbit numbers in FFS1 are way to high (real values would
be about 9-10 km/s including extra delta-V needed for atmospheric drag
losses and "gravity losses" (the amount of thrust that really is needed to
go upward.

All that being said, no modern rocket can generate 1G for 1 hour even today
(without many many stages and a tiny payload); that's 36 km/s, which is a
lot. We can barely begin to imagine making single stages today with about 
10km/s.

FFS2 overall does this somewhat better - the rocket fuel consumption
numbers (as corrected in the errata) are based on realistic technology. 
(The web page given above has some realistic values for FFS1.) 

I have a couple of TL8 designs that can make orbit that I can email to anyone
interested (an AZHRAE aerospaceplane from FFS1 and a hybrid chemical/nuclear
design from FFS2.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:45:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Large Scale Miniature Battles

At 11:48 AM 9/4/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Anyone have any suggestions for rules for large SF actions using 25mm
>miniatures? I have Striker II, but was looking for something that has each
>base as a squad or platoon (e.g., as Command Decision III does for WWII).
>Preferrably useable with the Traveller Universe, but not required.

The best (IMHO) sf mini rules are Dirtside II and Stargrunt from Ground
Zero Games.

DSII is designed for 1:300 scale battles with company/battalion scale
forces.  SG is a 25mm scale game of squad level combat.  Both games focus
on the importance of command, and have a good feel for modern combat (long
range fire between infantry only supresses the opponent, you have to get in
close to kill them, for example.)

The rules are simple, and quickly learned.  Both games include vehicle
design systems.  DSII has a points system for building armies, while SG
just allows you to set up scenarios as you wish.

Go to:

http://www.geohex.com/
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind  |
|  so much as the discovery that you have  |
|  walked into an ambush."                 |
|                      -Thomas Packenham   |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:23:55 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL.  Seawater is a bit more boyant. A
scount
>> weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.
>
>And when on a solid surface, each "leg" would be supporting 228 tons.
>The apparent contact area looks to be less than a square meter. But
>let's say it is.
>
>228 tons * 9.8 m/s^2 = 2234.4 kN
>
>So we have a ground pressure of 2234.4 kN/m^2.
>
>You get the same load by putting 22.8 kg on a 1cm square support.
>Or by putting about 324 pounds on a one inch square support. That's
>gonna sink in most ground...

I agree that the landing legs in the published material are too small,
IMTU the landing legs are much larger.  My concern is that tail landing
a scout will have too small a footprint and a large "sail" area.  Scout
ships are to be capible to land at class E and X starports, these may
not have level bedrock, thus making tail landing unsafe.

Free traders and far traders may also call on these starport classes.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:23:12 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Large Scale Miniature Battles

On Friday, 04 September 1998 10:48, eackerma@vt.edu
[SMTP:eackerma@vt.edu] wrote:
> Anyone have any suggestions for rules for large SF actions using 25mm
> miniatures? I have Striker II, but was looking for something that has
> each
> base as a squad or platoon (e.g., as Command Decision III does for
WWII).
> 
> Preferrably useable with the Traveller Universe, but not required.

I'm partial to the original Striker rules, myself.

However, for stuff that is still in print - get a copy of DirtSide II by
John Tuffley.  You can get a copy at the Geo-Hex/GZG games site:
http://www.geohex.com/gzgindex.htm

DirtSide II uses 1/300 scale minis for larger 'epic scale' battles.
Each infantry stand is a fire team of 4-5 individuals, each vehicle mini
is one vehicle.  Complete rules for combat, vehicle design, etc.  These
rules are clean and play fast.  It would be childishly easy to use these
rules for battles in the Traveller universe.  They work even better for
2300AD.

StarGrunt II is the 25mm version of DirtSide II.  Using a very similar
system, it focuses on the 'skirmish' scale fights.  One figure is one
trooper, one vehicle = one vehicle.

Both games are excellent, and the GZG mini's are perfect for Traveller
use.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com



 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:43:20 -0700
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

Charles R Hensley wrote:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >In mail you write:
> >
> >> Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL.  Seawater is a bit more boyant. A
> scount
> >> weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.
> >
> >And when on a solid surface, each "leg" would be supporting 228 tons.
> >The apparent contact area looks to be less than a square meter. But
> >let's say it is.
> >
> >228 tons * 9.8 m/s^2 = 2234.4 kN
> >
> >So we have a ground pressure of 2234.4 kN/m^2.
> >
> >You get the same load by putting 22.8 kg on a 1cm square support.
> >Or by putting about 324 pounds on a one inch square support. That's
> >gonna sink in most ground...
>
> I agree that the landing legs in the published material are too small,
> IMTU the landing legs are much larger.  My concern is that tail landing
> a scout will have too small a footprint and a large "sail" area.  Scout
> ships are to be capible to land at class E and X starports, these may
> not have level bedrock, thus making tail landing unsafe.
>
> Free traders and far traders may also call on these starport classes.

Well, now that I have access to my books, I see that contragrav lifters
account for 10% of the surface area of the ship.  This includes landing
skids. Thus a 100 dT scout should have a surface area of 900 sq.M. and 90
sq. M of landing surface. That makes each foot (I'm assuming a tripod) 30 sq
M.  Significantly more than a sq. meter each.

Of course some of the contragrav lifter surface area may not be skid/landing
gear.  But I can counter that by saying that the feet expand when deployed.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:45:11 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

How do I go about unsubscribing?

- --
My god, it's full of stars!


Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:34:09 -0700
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Just when I thought...

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> My comment is that it is obviously a slick, packaged deal aimed at selling
> some copies--keeping this dying hobby alive.  I took that as a heartbeat in an
> obviously flat-lined industry.

Gotcha.  I received a very good review of the game from Allen Shock,
who has played it, so I'm going to check it out.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:48:56 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Just when I thought...

>Just when I thought role-playing was a dying hobby (reference the
>current flux of companies falling by the wayside), I see some life
>pumped back into my favorite past time.
While waiting for a fellow player in a bookstore I leafed through the new
Alternity alien book. Not bad. Not bad at all. I have the Player's Handbook
and the DM's Guide, but have only had time to go through the PH. It has
some, well, interesting mechanics (you use a +/- _dice_ to modify your
basic d20 roll, rather than a fixed modifier). Overall I found it's
similarly to D&D rules and stats to be useful. It gave me an immediate
frame of reference in which I could evaluate rules.
I'm not sure it will go anywhere. I'm not sure any new game will go
anywhere. (The ST book you describe sounds like a coffee table collectable,
not a RPG.) But there are ideas I would steal for traveller. Not the
setting, though. The setting sucks.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:25:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: SupremeThunder@webtv.net (Mike Schade)
Subject: Boarding parties

While a peoplewacker is a wonderful idea, inertial compensation is far
more complex than that.  A ship wide compensator would be a field not
individual plates.  Every part would be adjusted the same since it all
moves the same. Neutralizing such a force in real space is impossible.
Since Traveller is fiction this is entirely up to you, but I try to not
violate physic if I can.  
   Whether or not gravity can be neutralized is unknown, but I believe
it is impossible as well.  Even in intergalactic space, there is
gravity.

Mike 
Ideas have consequences. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #798
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, September 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 799



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Inertial Compensators (was re: Boarding parties)
Re: 1) Apology
Jump drive vs warp metric
Re: 1) Apology
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Arden Stillwell Light Assault Troopship
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Just when I thought...
Re: 1) Apology
Re: 1) Apology
Re: Ordering HIWG CD
Cheap energy in Traveller
Corsican upstarts
re: Deckplans
Re: Starship deck orientation
Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?
Re: Boarding Parties
Re: Deckplans
Akus Moby replay
MegaTrav links
stills
List of DGP's Megatraveller books.
Mercenary Cruiser Redesign

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:37:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Inertial Compensators (was re: Boarding parties)

Mike Schade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
While a peoplewacker is a wonderful idea, inertial compensation is far
more complex than that.  A ship wide compensator would be a field not
individual plates.  Every part would be adjusted the same since it all
moves the same. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A long-body ship makes a hard pivot, spins in place. People near the
center of the ship are affected far less than people at the bow, or stern.

A ship rolls hard to expose an undamaged weapon battery. People near
the spine of the ship will be affected less than people near the outer hull.

The entire ship may "move the same", but the people inside will be
different distances from the axis of motion and direction of acceleration
depending on what's going on and where they are at the moment.

The only way for an inertial compensator to work so people won't notice
any movement, _and_ not build a system that lets an engineer slap
people around like high-tech telekinesis, is to make the system produce
a ship-wide field that damps or neutralizes acceleration without actually
generating any perceptible force of it's own - the energy must be
neutralized.

I realize this is black-box tech, not readily explainable with common
physics. Neither is jump drive, anti-gravity, or a bunch of other canon
things.

My explanation was geared towards making an environment where
the ship's engineer can't massacre all enemy boarding parties on
any ship just by hitting a few buttons.

Walt Smith
IMTU Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:31:09 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, September 04, 1998 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: 1) Apology


>> Also, it may have been parked in orbit because the hull integrity
>> wasn't up to a landing. :-)
>>
>
>WOULD y'all PLEASE stop giving Eris ideas!!! He does _quite_ well enough
>on his own, thankyewverymuch!
>


Bruce, as a player I can understand your feelings... But as a Ref this is
GREAT STUFF! Can't wait to use this one in some future game! (rubs his hands
together with a wicked grin on his face)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:57:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: SupremeThunder@webtv.net (Mike Schade)
Subject: Jump drive vs warp metric

The difference is more than what you would expect, but not as much as it
would appear. Yes, you get there instantly without relativistic effects,
or need of inertial compensation, but you can other problems. Hulls
immediately gain 20% percent in mass and unuseable surface  volume do to
the Star trek nacelle design. Plus all ships must have a fuel processor
and fuel scoops, to pull in the Zero point energy. (fusion reactions are
too weak). 
   And while the drive is half the size of a jump drive, you don't gain
extra space do to the vertical z-axis nacelle behind the smaller drive
unit.  Also material strength and field creation time are other factors.
  With HepLar, you should be able to whip around the systems but i leave
that to you.  I have a more deeper explanation for anyone who is
interested.

Mike
Ideas have consequences.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 98 17:19:38 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

On 09/04/98 at 05:54 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> I do have fears that when we get to Mark, we'll be drivven waaaaaay off
>> to the edge of the starport, out with the weeds and spares, and be told
>> that "That pile over there is the Mae Lee...she's all yours, storage
>> fees commence now."

>No, no, they take you to the highport, and shuttle you over to the
>parking orbit they stick all that stuff in. "That hunk of junk is
>yours...."

Ho! Ho! Ho! My players are going to *love* you, Leonard. ;->

I'll let them tell the list how they found their ship *after* it
happens...if it happens. ;->

Unfortunately, that could be some weeks, PBEM's move slowly and
I've been waiting for the group to decide if they want to buy a
cargo or not for a couple of weeks now.  Under a minute of game
time has passed in two weeks...yawn!  They better get a move on, or
I'm going to throw another round of Mooks at them. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 98 17:29:56 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

I've stayed out of the parallel vs perpendecular deck orientation
debate...and intend to continue.  ;-> Personally, I prefer parallel
orientations on smaller ships for game reasons, but I've done
designs both ways...and will continue to do so.  I also don't use
realistic (or even unrealistic ;) thrust, I use stutterwarp for
in-system travel and my take on CG/IC is such that orientation isn't
all that important, IMTU. 

On 09/04/98 at 05:06 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> Water weighs 1000kg (1 ton) per kL. Seawater is a bit more
>> boyant.  A scount weighs 684 tons loaded and displaces 1400 kL.

Water is significant.

>And when on a solid surface, each "leg" would be supporting 228 tons.
>The apparent contact area looks to be less than a square meter. But
>let's say it is.

>228 tons * 9.8 m/s^2 = 2234.4 kN

>So we have a ground pressure of 2234.4 kN/m^2.

>You get the same load by putting 22.8 kg on a 1cm square support. Or
>by putting about 324 pounds on a one inch square support. That's
>gonna sink in most ground...

Which is one reason I have ships do a lot of water landings.  Downports
are often on rivers, lakes or bays and lacking those in large
artificial basins.  Yes, ships can land...on land, but generally
must keep their CG powered up while down to prevent sinking into the
ground.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 08:36:46
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Arden Stillwell Light Assault Troopship

>From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
>SSgt Arden Stillwell, SSgt Arden Stillwell class Light Assault Troopship 
>(FF&S v2)	
>Designed by Douglas Glatz	
>	
>Statistics	
> Tons: 800std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )
> Volume: 11200m3
> Mass (L/C): 17322t/15754t
> Dimensions: 27.8m diameter
> Size: 8
> Crew: 13/25
> Troops/Science: 30/0
> Frozen Watch: 0
> Cargo: 100std (0/40)
> Cost: 931.835 (987.835 w/cutters) MCr

>
>Performance	
> 2 Jump (80std/pc fuel /Ar:0 [20])
> 1.3/1.4 Maneuver (/Thruster:560MW /Ar:0 [20])
> 1.3/1.4 Contra-grav (381MW /Ar:0 [20])
> 2538 kph/2773 kph Atmosphere (/Crus:1904kph/2080kph)
> 3 Power (/Fus:1025MW,1yr  /Ar:0 [20])
> 300 Battery (4.41/302.8/43.8 /Ar:0 [20])
> 171 Fuel (/Scoop:1 /Purif:48,2MW /Ar:0 [20])
> 2 G-Comp ( /Ar:0 [20])
> 2 Sandcasters ( /AV:40 /Cans:30 /Ar:0 [10])
> 40 Damper Screen (1MW /Ar:0 [10])
> 40 Meson Screen (0.64MW /Ar:0 [10])
> 70 [410] Armor, 18 Structure
>
>Electronics	
> Sensors (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 1xAEMS (8, 0.03MW). 
>1xLIDAR (14.5 [500kkm], 0.6MW).
> Survey/Science (/Ar :0 [20]): 1xDensiometer (7.5 [16km]). 1xNeutrino (8.5 
>[160km], 5MW).
> ECM (/Ar: 0  [20]): 1xRadio Jammer (500,000km, 0.33MW).
> Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:0 (-0.5 at 955MW, -0.5 at 103MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1, 
>Grav:1
>
>Weaponry
> 2xLaser Turret (+0) 1/2-0-0-0 [2,100/15-7-4-2] (LR /Ar:40 [200])
>
> 4xMissile Turret Auto 1/4 ( /Mag:15 /MFD:500,000km /Ar:0 [20])
>
I really dont like this ship.

The complement is very small - 30 troops for a MCr 900 ship, and the gees
arent that impressive. Defensive armament is OK. Personally, I'd move the
troops from low berths to bunks.

The ship also looks overpowered - you arent going to be running the
thruster plates and jump drive simultaneously, and if you do have to make a
running jump, you can run one or the other out of that chunky battery
power. I'd say you can lose at least 300 MW from the main power plant,
which will save space, mass and (most of all) money.

The 100 dton of cargo is a judgement call - personally, I'd reduce it, and
add a machine shop and an electronics shop, on the grounds this will allow
field maintainence and repair, which will mean you need fewer spare parts.

The densitometer might be non-essential, but the neutrino sensor is a nice
touch - spot those nasty grav tanks, and then pepper them with combustion
laser missiles. You might think about a small, cheap radar jammer - not to
jam starship or ground defenses, but to jam radars on small craft and tanks.

The armour is very thick, which is a definite plus, but I dont like the
lack of sensor redundancy. I'd add a couple of cheap PEMS and AEMS in case
you take some surface hits coming in.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 08:16:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

>From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation
>
>I agree that the landing legs in the published material are too small,
>IMTU the landing legs are much larger.  My concern is that tail landing
>a scout will have too small a footprint and a large "sail" area.  Scout
>ships are to be capible to land at class E and X starports, these may
>not have level bedrock, thus making tail landing unsafe.
>
>Free traders and far traders may also call on these starport classes.
>
>Charles

For a bunch of reasons, I've always liked auxilary power plants.

Another one is that while dirtside you can run the auxilary one to power
the contragravity, thus reducing the weight the lander legs have to
support. The main power plant is still offline, allowing the engineer to
tinker with it.

Ian Whitchurch

This post has been certified free of Ditzie-speak by the Imperial Ministry
of Health

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 98 17:39:58 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Just when I thought...

On 09/04/98 at 04:34 PM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>> My comment is that it is obviously a slick, packaged deal aimed at selling
>> some copies--keeping this dying hobby alive.  I took that as a heartbeat in an
>> obviously flat-lined industry.

>Gotcha.  I received a very good review of the game from Allen Shock,
>who has played it, so I'm going to check it out.

Yep, Allen's review in usenet is one of the reasons I want to check it out. Another was a "chat" session with Ken Hite over at on-line Pyramid.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 98 17:49:22 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

On 09/04/98 at 05:31 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com> said:

>>> Also, it may have been parked in orbit because the hull integrity
>>> wasn't up to a landing. :-)

>>WOULD y'all PLEASE stop giving Eris ideas!!! He does _quite_ well enough
>>on his own, thankyewverymuch!

<grin> Thanks Bruce, I'll remember that...Muhahahahaha!

>Bruce, as a player I can understand your feelings... But as a Ref
>this is GREAT STUFF! Can't wait to use this one in some future game!
>(rubs his hands together with a wicked grin on his face)

As I mentioned earlier, if you'd like, AFTER, whatever happens,
happens, either the players or I can report back to the list so you
can share the fun.  At this point, I can neither confirm or deny any
reports...;->

BTW, is the list be interested in a synopsis of what has happened in
my Akus Moby PBEM up to this point?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:52:34 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: 1) Apology

Bruce Johnson pleaded:

>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> No, no, they take you to the highport, and shuttle you over to the
>> parking orbit they stick all that stuff in. "That hunk of junk is
>> yours...."
>> 
>> Parking the stuff in orbit minimizes a lot of types of wear. Also, why
>> land it when you'll only have to haul it (or the parts from it, if you
>> are stripping it) back into orbit.
>> 
>> Also, it may have been parked in orbit because the hull integrity
>> wasn't up to a landing. :-)
>>
>
>WOULD y'all PLEASE stop giving Eris ideas!!! He does _quite_ well enough
>on his own, thankyewverymuch!

Hey, just be thankful he's not using your BioWarfare rules 
to create an illegal cargo hidden onboard.

(..oops..)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:01:28 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ordering HIWG CD

> "Wayne Ewart"
> who do I get this from

Bryan Borich
3890 50th street
San Diego, CA 92105-3005

	Cost is currently $20 US includes S&H, money order preferred.

	An out-of-date index can be found on my website,
members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller.mpgn.com
	There's approximately 360 megabytes of Traveller material and it's changing
constantly (hence the out-of-date index).


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:55:59 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Cheap energy in Traveller

Extract from http://www.crossover.com/~costik/inttrav.html

"The smallest power plant which may be installed on a ship in 
Traveller is a standard "A" power plan. The A-plant can consume 
20 tons of hydrogen over a period of a week, convert it to energy, 
and feed it to an "A" FTL drive. (This is how much energy is needed 
by the smallest FTL drive to make a jump of 1 parsec if installed in 
a 200 ton ship.) If we assume Miller is using metric tons (1 ton = 
1,000 kg), an A power plant then can deliver 380,000 MW-years 
of energy over a period of one week. Over a year, it could deliver 
19,800,000 MW-years. Thus, a single A power plant produces 
about 86 times as much energy in a year as all of the electrical 
generating plants in the United States. A single jump in Traveller 
uses about 160% of the energy the US produces in a single year. "
             - Greg Costikyan, 1982

OK, I have heard that some folk here actually did model a 
universe where energy is *this* cheap.  How did that universe look like?
What was the consequences of ultra-cheap energy in a society?
What becomes cost-effective, and what simply isn't worth the time?
Does it change society as much as cheap nano-tech would?

Alvin Plummer
highly curious about these things...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:24:37 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Corsican upstarts

Everyone knows that Napoleon was a great believer is 'his star', and
followed it throughout his career.

He once (paraphrase mode on) had his polices queried by some religious
bloke. Napoleon took him outside and pointed at the night sky. See that
star? No, THAT one! he said. The religious guy couldn't so he said 'well
push off then, because I can see what you can't'.

Paraphrased, but this strange belief in 'his star' is disturbing. His very
own Hiver? Or what?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:51:56 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: re: Deckplans

>I think the idea posted to the list was a good one. If you are certain
>that all sub-1000 ton ships should be built with decks perpendicular
>to thrust, and are sure that they can be designed with more
>accessibility, efficiency and stability than ships with decks paralell
>to thrust, then it behooves you to present some designs.

Well, I have no artistic talent and no spare time... but another TML member
emailed me saying essentially the same thing.

Give me a week or so, and I'll try to put something together.

>I'll accept that you can make a flying pyramid, call it streamlined
>and stable on landing, and even have all the cargo in the base of
>the pyramid. Is this what you had in mind?

Right. Making one that looks like the classic scout/courier will be a
challenge, however, because of it's narrowness. I'll see what I can do.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:16:11 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship deck orientation

A good example of that idea is the Tukera 1000 ton long liner. She waters
lands (no landing gear), or uses a landing cradle. The cradle has grav modules
to support the ship on top, as part of the cradle, and more grav modules on
the bottom, to taxi this whole contraption around the downport tarmac. I would
guess that the cradles are only found at A and B starports, and maybe only
ports that have Tukera handling facilities and offices....

PS. She uses parallel decks.... :-)

(I prefer parallel for streamlined, and perpendicular for large non fully
streamlined vessels...)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:18:03 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbondioxide an atmospheric taint?

Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:34:36 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> On a geochemical level, would say its not clear.  There is
>> no hard and fast process that makes this impossible. However,
>> oxygen is produced from carbon dioxide.  If you have plants
>> doing this, one might guess they would keep pulling down the
>> CO2 levels, rather than leaving them at some high level.

>Remember, plants convert CO2 to sugars. Some they burn for enery,
>returning the CO2 to the atmosphere. The rest winds up as cellulose (ie
>biomass). High CO2 levels will encourage plant growth, but they won't
>reduce it all that fast. And when the plant dies, decay will turn much
>of the cellolose into CO2 and the rest into biomass in the deacy
>organisms. And when *they* die, they cycle repeats.

The point is that not all of it gets returned.  Some if it gets
buried (that is why we have an oxygen atmosphere).  As you speed
up the rate as which CO2 gets fixed, you speed up the rate at
which it gets buried.  So the question is, is the current level
of CO2 what we "happened to end up with", or the level at which
plants stopped bringing down the CO2 level because it got too
difficult.

>The amount of carbon is *constant*. The carbon cycle on a planet has
>CO2 in the atmosphere, carbonate ions in the ocean, and carbonate rocks
>on or near the surface. When subducted, the rocks release the CO2,
>which returns to the atmosphere and oceans via volcanic activity.
>
>When you add life, you get plants turning CO2 into biomass. And
>microrganisms turning carbonate ions into calcium carbonate shells
>(ditto for animals like clams and coral). That increases the formation
>of limestone, which eventually gets subducted. And biomass recycles
>carbon, except when conditions lead to the formation of coal (and
>possibly oil[1]) deposits. Those take longer to recycle.

Actually, not all crust is subducted (the continents are too light,
that is why you have the Himalayas, neither India or Asia is
willing to be subducted).  In any case, the process is slow and
if you increase fixation, more carbon is sitting on the
"conveyor belt".  The question is, what is the limit?  It may
be that there is some fundamental limit and, as photosythesis
evolves, plants just keep bringing the level down and down until
you hit some sort of fundamental limit.

If I have time in a few weeks I'll see if I can't look up what
is known about CO2 level over the Earths history.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:37:35 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Boarding Parties

>As for the entertaining example of killing an enemy boarding party
>with a swimming pool:

Thank you, we all found it quite entertaining as well (seeing as we
were on the right end of it...)

>All pressure-tight hatches IMTU will not open to a high pressure
>differential - whether it's vacuum on the other side or deep water.
>Depending on the design of the door, it will either take wrecking the
>sensors or wrecking the door to make it open (some doors are
>mechanically unable to open to a high pressure differential).

Well, technically, the doors in question weren't opened; they were blown,
with demo charges.  But point taken.

Note that your policy will also keep people from venting compartments to
space to put out shipboard fires... hope your fire-suppressant system
is up to snuff.

(snip)
> I don't see many ships having
>deathtraps as part of the design, though we can of course leave these
>for intrepid PC's to cobble together....

And we have some very intrepid PCs aboard the Elissa.  :)
In the words of our Vargr CO (don't ask), regarding the guy who came up 
with this plan:
"You sick little monkeyboy."  *laugh*


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 02:02:46 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:38:27 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:08:03 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> Oh yeah, for the folks worried about landing legs on soft ground
> >> causing a ship to topple? I suggest re-reading the description of
> >> starport types. Why do you suppose that type E is described as
> >> "essentially a marked spot of BEDROCK"? Maybe to avoid exactly that
> >> problem? 
> >
> > And the Chevy Corvette was engineered to drive on asphalt or concrete only,
> > yet this hasn't stopped people from driving them on gravel or even dirt
> > roads.
> 
> Chevies don't have the sort of ground pressure a starship's landing
> gear does.

That wasn't quite my point.  I meant that even though a vehicle was
designed to be used in a certain environment, people still like to exceed
what the engineers originally had in mind.  And this would include 4x4'ing
a Corvette or landing your Free Trader somewhere in the wilderness.  But I
get your point about the radar devices used by archeological digs, etc.




James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

  "Boy, Data, you look great in a push-up bra!" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:50:33 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Akus Moby replay

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> BTW, is the list be interested in a synopsis of what has happened in
> my Akus Moby PBEM up to this point?
> 
Why not? I like reading any of this sort of thing. If the others do not
then maybe you would grace my e-mail with a synposis if and when you
have the time and inclination. Thank you.

Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:37:05 EDT
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: MegaTrav links

Good day!

     Can anyone send me any links they may have for web pages that deal w/ MT?
Any info would be greatly appreciated (and it's a great chance to plug your
site!  :-) )

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:06:54 -0700
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: stills

Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net> types out:
>Douglas Glatz wrote:
>> I have used the 'attic' area for some interesting encounters.  I've had
>> everything from clothes lines to artwork and in the case of one
particularly
>> twisted scout, a pistol range...
>Once upon a time, I had a still set up in the Scout's 'attic', an entire
>micro-brewery, in fact. 
>Don't *all* groups, set up a still somewhere on their ships? ;-> 

   Surprisingly enough, the players in my Traveller campaign have yet to do
so.
The "Official, un-official Company Still" is a part of our Battletech
campaign.




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:38:07 -0400
From: "chauncey smith" <Csmith@icdc.com>
Subject: List of DGP's Megatraveller books.

I was playing with the cd-rom looking for more kkkewl stuff and they mention
a alien race book 3 from DGP...  can some one give me a list of all the
megatraveller stuff that they put out?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:20:46 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Mercenary Cruiser Redesign

Approved for release: Eqenden Industries

While the release of our SSgt Arden Stillwell has met with generally 
positive reviews, trials of the Mercenary Cruiser highlighted several 
weaknesses.  Therefore, in the spirit of producing the best product for the 
market, we are proud to announce the Phase II prototype, the Lt. Terry 
VonDamme.

Although the VonDamme is built on the same hull structure (800 Std, SL 
Sphere Hypersonic), the design requirement for the starship to land in a 
battlefield environment was removed.  This allowed us to lighten the ship 
considerably by removing half of the armor (AV of 40), which increases the 
top acceleration of the ship from 2.8 G to 3.0 G (unloaded).

But, just because the design parameter for battlefield landing was removed 
does not mean that the starship is unable to fight!  The re-evaluation of 
the starship was carried through to the weapon configuration, and in order 
to accentuate it's role as a orbital weapon's platform, the weapon's suite 
was reconfigured.  The number of missile launchers were reduced from 4 to 
2.  The complement of 2-triple laser turrets remains, and the energy 
weaponry was enhanced with the addition of two Particle Accelerators, 
configured as a single battery (option void where prohibited).

If there was a single glaring weakness of the Stillwell class, it was that 
the complement of 30 troopers (20 Infantry and 3 vehicle crews) was 
insufficient in most cases.  The VonDamme is capable of carrying 2-1/2 
times that (75) consisting of 60 troopers and 5 vehicle crews.  (Design 
vehicle is the TL12 Grav Tank, CSC p.81).  Combatant delivery is as 
follows: 3 squads (30 battlesuited Heavy Infantry) are released via drop 
capsule (2 drops are available before the supply of capsules must be 
replenished.)  One squad (generally the headquarters squad) rides as 
passengers in one of the modular cutters, configured for cargo.  The cutter 
can carry 12 passengers independent of the module being carried, so this 
will not affect it's capacity of 30 tons (combat supplies) The other cutter 
will be configured to carry the 5 Grav tanks (4 std) and the crews (15). 
 The final squad will be split between the two G-Carriers, to act as scouts 
and/or a mobile reserve.  Meanwhile, the VonDamme herself continues to act 
as an orbital artillery support ship.

Because of cargo limitations, the cutters will have to be pre-loaded at the 
base of operations.  However, 33 tons of cargo space is allotted on board 
for extended operations.

Battery capacity in the VonDamme was severely cut, but still enables the 
ship to operate for 17 hours with the Power Plants shut down (assuming no 
weapon use...)

An electronics shop and machine shop have been added to the ship, 
complementing the extensive sickbay and Ship's Locker that existed in the 
original design.  The 2 armories were enhanced to support the 60 combat 
troops anticipated by this design.

To assist in providing the combat force with accurate data, the VonDamme is 
equipped with a TL 12 neutrino detector and a TL 12 densitiometer.  This 
allows the ship to detect and map underground complexes, before combat 
personnel ever set foot in the area.  To provide protection for the ship 
while performing such low altitude maneuvers, the VonDamme is equipped with 
the latest Nuclear Damper and Meson Fields.

Finally, even with the significant weapon's upgrade, performance upgrade 
and increased, we  were able to drop the price to MCr 871.855  - which 
includes the 2 G-Carriers, 2 Modular Cutters, and 5 Grav Tanks.
____________________________________________________________________
Lt. Terry VonDamme, SSgt Arden Stillwell class Assault Troopship, Light 
(FF&S v2)	
Designed by Douglas Glatz	

Statistics
 Tons: 800std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )	
 Volume: 11200m3	
 Mass (L/C): 12011t/11276t	
 Dimensions: 27.8m diameter	
 Size: 8	
 Crew: 11/24
 Troops/Science: 90/0
 Cargo: 33std (0/10)
 Cost: 871.855 MCr
 Maintenance Points: 381
 Tech Level: 12

Performance	
 2 Jump (80std/pc fuel /Ar:10 [40])
 1.9/2 Maneuver (/Thruster:560MW /Ar:10 [40])
 0.9/1 Contra-grav (190MW /Ar:10 [40])
 3347kph/3554kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2510kph/2666kph)
 2 Power (/Fus:350MW,1yr /Fis+:500MW,672hr  /Ar:10 [40])
 150 Battery (1.83/101.4/17.1 /Ar:10 [40])
 163.8 Fuel (/Scoop:1 /Purif:48,2MW /Ar:0 [20])
 0/37/2/75/0 Accomodations
 200 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Gd /'St /Ar:0 [20])
 3 G-Comp ( /Ar:0 [20])
 1 Sandcasters ( /AV:40 /Cans:10 /Ar:0 [20])
 40 Damper Screen (1MW /Ar:0 [20])
 40 Meson Screen (0.64MW /Ar:0 [20])
 40 [200] Armor, 18 Structure

Electronics		
 Controls (/Ar: 10 [40]): Dynamic, High automation. 3xFibComp (CM:0.4 
CP:2.5). Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160). Bridge (/Ar:20[60]).	
 Communications (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xRadio Rec. (1,000AU, 0.02MW). 1xRadio 
(500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW). 	
 Sensors (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 1xAEMS (8, 0.03MW). 
1xLIDAR (15.5 [5mkm], 6MW). 	
 Survey/Science (/Ar :0 [20]): 1xDensiometer (7.5 [16km]). 1xNeutrino (8 
[50km], 1MW). 	
 ECM (/Ar: 0  [20]): 1xRadio Jammer (500,000km, 0.33MW). 	
 Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-0.5 (-0.5 at 766MW, -1 at 85MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1, 
Grav:1	
		
Weaponry		
 2xLaser Turret (+0) 1/2-0-0-0 [2,100/15-7-4-2] (LR /Ar:40 [200])
 2xMissile Turret Auto 1/4 ( /Mag:15 /MFD:500,000km /Ar:0 [20])	
	w/16 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU
 2xParticle Accelerator (+4) 2/0-0-0-0 [1,100/0-0-0-0] (LR /Ar:0 [20])

Features		
 2xAirlock	
 1xDecontamination Airlock
 1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)	
 1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
 2xArmory (2.14std ea.)	
 1xSickbay (8std ea.)	
 1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:50)	
 1xShip's locker (0.4std ea.)
 2xCap Lnchr (30 rdy cap ea.)

Small Craft		
 1xMinHgr (8std, 1 hatches)	
 1xMinHgr (8std, 1 hatches)		
  2xG-Carriers(0std ea.)
 1xDockRing (50std)		
 1xDockRing (50std)
  2x50 Std Modular Cutter(0std ea.)
  5x4 Std Grav Tank (TL-12)

Backups		
 Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km). 	
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm]). 1xAEMS (7). 1xLIDAR (14.5 [500kkm]). 	
			
Crew Details		
 3xMnvr. 5xEngr. 6xGunn. 3xScrn. 2xFlgt. 3xCmnd. 2xMed. 	

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #799
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